1 00:00:00,100 --> 00:00:03,169 All this additional burnout since COVID. 2 00:00:03,269 --> 00:00:07,140 I wonder if there is other underlying reasons 3 00:00:07,273 --> 00:00:11,244 like working remote and that it's bad for burnout. 4 00:00:11,344 --> 00:00:12,212 I'll say this. 5 00:00:12,212 --> 00:00:14,748 I I'm sure it is because it's change. 6 00:00:15,448 --> 00:00:16,116 Yeah, right. 7 00:00:16,116 --> 00:00:19,352 And so we haven't really quite figured out how to live in that world. 8 00:00:19,352 --> 00:00:20,987 But I think overall. 9 00:00:20,987 --> 00:00:24,290 Skipping a 45 minute drive on four seven is not a bad thing. 10 00:00:24,991 --> 00:00:26,793 Maybe at 5:00. 11 00:00:26,793 --> 00:00:29,396 Here's another commitment you make. 5:00. 12 00:00:29,396 --> 00:00:30,563 We should be done with work. 13 00:00:30,563 --> 00:00:31,765 530, whenever it is. 14 00:00:31,765 --> 00:00:34,567 I mean, you will go get in a car, 15 00:00:34,567 --> 00:00:37,437 drive to the nearest car parked on the street, sit behind it, 16 00:00:37,537 --> 00:00:43,309 honk at it, yell at it for 25 minutes, then go park back in her driveway. 17 00:00:43,376 --> 00:00:44,110 Yeah. 18 00:00:44,310 --> 00:00:47,013 They can see gestures at the windshield. 19 00:00:47,013 --> 00:00:47,380 Yeah. 20 00:00:47,380 --> 00:00:50,417 That's the way that I started thinking about. 21 00:00:50,417 --> 00:00:54,154 Our burnout topic was just, you know, kind of try 22 00:00:54,154 --> 00:00:58,024 to take the filters off and, you know, write down what I how I felt about it. And 23 00:00:59,092 --> 00:01:00,493 things that I did, you know, 24 00:01:00,493 --> 00:01:03,830 kind of just, you know, encountered with the concept of burnout. 25 00:01:04,431 --> 00:01:05,498 Take the filters off. 26 00:01:05,498 --> 00:01:06,900 Describe what you mean there. 27 00:01:06,900 --> 00:01:09,035 Yeah. So burnout is bad. You know, 28 00:01:10,203 --> 00:01:10,937 I don't like it. 29 00:01:10,937 --> 00:01:14,741 I've and I've also actually experienced it most recently 30 00:01:14,741 --> 00:01:17,610 here, too, you know, So it's like very fresh concept in my mind, 31 00:01:17,811 --> 00:01:21,414 but got a lot of like, you know, very fresh ideas and thoughts around. 32 00:01:21,414 --> 00:01:21,581 Yeah. 33 00:01:21,581 --> 00:01:25,151 Preventing it and making sure it doesn't happen for, for me 34 00:01:25,151 --> 00:01:27,887 but also like the people around me too, right? 35 00:01:28,021 --> 00:01:29,722 It's that's just something that I've encountered. 36 00:01:29,722 --> 00:01:33,493 My partner encounters it almost on a regular basis now. 37 00:01:33,827 --> 00:01:39,432 My initial thought off the bat is were to do sensitized to it being a normal thing. 38 00:01:39,432 --> 00:01:41,601 And it's all around us and it shouldn't be. 39 00:01:41,734 --> 00:01:44,938 And there's a lot of complexities that go into burnout 40 00:01:45,572 --> 00:01:47,507 that extend beyond the workplace. 41 00:01:47,507 --> 00:01:49,909 And so I get really excited to talk about it 42 00:01:49,909 --> 00:01:54,380 with all of that and get your takes on it And but yeah, like my general feel is 43 00:01:54,681 --> 00:01:58,651 we've got to do something about it because there's too much of it around us. 44 00:01:58,985 --> 00:02:00,820 Gotcha. Ben, what are your thoughts? 45 00:02:03,957 --> 00:02:04,591 If that 46 00:02:04,591 --> 00:02:07,260 was well stated and I and yeah, that was the, 47 00:02:07,794 --> 00:02:11,364 the one of the very first things I thought of as I was like, holy cow. 48 00:02:11,364 --> 00:02:15,735 Like, this is burnout is not an employee problem. 49 00:02:16,302 --> 00:02:17,804 It's a people problem. 50 00:02:17,804 --> 00:02:18,271 Yeah. 51 00:02:18,671 --> 00:02:21,641 Like, I think. A society. Problem. Yeah. 52 00:02:21,774 --> 00:02:25,612 I mean and you know an almost I mean, I try to go to bigger cause 53 00:02:25,612 --> 00:02:28,548 you know, but like, like a human problem or at least like I said, 54 00:02:28,615 --> 00:02:31,217 you know, United States, I can't talk for all nations. 55 00:02:31,217 --> 00:02:36,256 And but I mean, I, I look at this and I'm like, like my kids and I think of like, 56 00:02:36,723 --> 00:02:40,393 you know, between school and sports and social media and friends and 57 00:02:41,227 --> 00:02:43,530 and parents to thoughts were 58 00:02:44,197 --> 00:02:47,333 I think a lot of people are experiencing 59 00:02:47,333 --> 00:02:52,272 burnout of all ages and working, you know, And then the second thing is 60 00:02:52,272 --> 00:02:55,441 that I would surmise that a lot of people don't even know that they're in it 61 00:02:55,909 --> 00:02:59,279 or that they are in it or experiencing burnout. 62 00:03:00,213 --> 00:03:00,780 I agree. 63 00:03:00,780 --> 00:03:04,951 I think my initial thought was, Ben, something you were just alluding to is 64 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,254 this is not isolated at work. 65 00:03:08,421 --> 00:03:10,557 You know, burnout is not a work thing. 66 00:03:11,157 --> 00:03:14,861 It is everything in your life throwing shit at you and you're 67 00:03:14,861 --> 00:03:16,362 trying to get out of the way. 68 00:03:16,362 --> 00:03:20,433 So it's a dance of of just trying to stay afloat necessarily. 69 00:03:20,433 --> 00:03:21,367 So yeah. 70 00:03:21,367 --> 00:03:25,405 I would love to break down like the different ways burnout looks 71 00:03:25,505 --> 00:03:29,309 and something that I guess tears in. 72 00:03:29,342 --> 00:03:32,645 Part of my thoughts are it's not proportional 73 00:03:32,645 --> 00:03:36,182 to like the amount of time that you spend on anything, right? 74 00:03:36,182 --> 00:03:41,654 I think there's this notion that, hey, I work 80 hours a week 75 00:03:41,654 --> 00:03:46,025 and it's it's so much about all this responsibility or things to do. 76 00:03:46,593 --> 00:03:48,828 And it's just more than I can manage in a week. 77 00:03:48,828 --> 00:03:51,064 Right. And that is a form of burnout. 78 00:03:51,064 --> 00:03:55,301 But Brett, knowing your situation and even even situations I've had in the past, 79 00:03:55,768 --> 00:04:00,173 I've burnt out on like a regular 40 hour a week or even something less, right? 80 00:04:00,173 --> 00:04:03,643 Like it's not necessarily proportional, just amount of time 81 00:04:03,643 --> 00:04:06,312 that takes like it looks and forms differently. 82 00:04:06,779 --> 00:04:09,716 And I think to your point and to what we've all said, it's 83 00:04:09,949 --> 00:04:11,918 it's integrated with your life. It's not just work. 84 00:04:11,918 --> 00:04:13,753 It's it's everything else that's happening. 85 00:04:13,753 --> 00:04:16,222 So then from from that angle, then what? 86 00:04:16,589 --> 00:04:18,224 How would you define burnout? 87 00:04:18,224 --> 00:04:21,995 Because when I when I look at it, I don't necessarily know 88 00:04:21,995 --> 00:04:23,963 that I could burnout in 40 weeks. 89 00:04:23,963 --> 00:04:28,701 I can get really tired and be have zero productivity for a week. 90 00:04:28,701 --> 00:04:31,437 Right. And I don't know that I would define that burnout. 91 00:04:31,437 --> 00:04:35,475 So what do you think the definition is, or at least what is your definition? 92 00:04:35,475 --> 00:04:39,012 Yeah, that's a great question, actually, you know, because I think I've actually, 93 00:04:39,212 --> 00:04:41,948 you know, put put words to it because it's a feeling for me 94 00:04:42,282 --> 00:04:44,250 and to try to put words to it, it's 95 00:04:45,985 --> 00:04:47,253 waking up 96 00:04:47,253 --> 00:04:49,489 and your soul's already crushed like. 97 00:04:51,024 --> 00:04:52,759 Sounds like burnout. 98 00:04:53,192 --> 00:04:57,563 And here's the again, kind of the personal bit for me, but like, 99 00:04:57,563 --> 00:05:01,000 I recently just left a job where, I mean, that's literally what was happening. 100 00:05:01,534 --> 00:05:05,838 I was going to bed stressed about the stuff that I had to do and 101 00:05:05,838 --> 00:05:09,676 the timelines that were imposed upon me and they weren't 102 00:05:09,676 --> 00:05:13,012 even ridiculous and they weren't even out of control or behind. 103 00:05:13,046 --> 00:05:13,613 Right. 104 00:05:13,613 --> 00:05:16,082 It was just I went to bed, you know, I'm like, okay, 105 00:05:16,082 --> 00:05:19,552 I just got to do all this stuff tomorrow and this and that and whatever. 106 00:05:19,819 --> 00:05:21,688 And I'd wake up and I'd be thinking about it 107 00:05:21,688 --> 00:05:23,089 and I wouldn't be excited about it. 108 00:05:23,089 --> 00:05:26,259 I think that was a very key element, and that's kind of the soul crush comes in. 109 00:05:26,592 --> 00:05:29,429 It's like, I've got all this stuff to do and I've got all these 110 00:05:29,729 --> 00:05:32,432 deliverables that I've got to pass on to other teams, you know? 111 00:05:32,432 --> 00:05:33,900 So I want to be a good teammate 112 00:05:33,900 --> 00:05:36,336 so there's no way I can just half assed it or anything. 113 00:05:36,336 --> 00:05:40,306 And I'm generally not one to half ass anything as they're just feeling. 114 00:05:40,306 --> 00:05:44,644 I had to bring my whole put, put all this effort, energy and focus 115 00:05:44,644 --> 00:05:48,281 into something that I didn't care about that was taking up time in my brain 116 00:05:48,281 --> 00:05:52,218 that I didn't want to do, you know, for it to be there, I couldn't like kind of 117 00:05:52,618 --> 00:05:55,922 compartmentalize it and turn it off, which, you know, I'm really bad at that. 118 00:05:55,922 --> 00:05:59,125 I actually realized I had a conversation with a friend earlier this week 119 00:05:59,125 --> 00:06:03,029 and like, I'm not one of those people who can just my workday is done. 120 00:06:03,029 --> 00:06:06,332 I'm going to go home to my family and I'm going to, you know, live that life. 121 00:06:06,332 --> 00:06:07,600 And then when tomorrow comes around, 122 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:09,902 I'll just flip it back on like it's always with me. 123 00:06:10,470 --> 00:06:13,039 And so in much shorter words, I guess 124 00:06:13,272 --> 00:06:18,911 burnout is what invades your, you know, your personal comfort zone 125 00:06:18,911 --> 00:06:22,715 or your your your psyche when you don't want it to. 126 00:06:22,715 --> 00:06:23,082 Right. 127 00:06:23,082 --> 00:06:26,486 It's like a loss of control almost over how you're 128 00:06:26,486 --> 00:06:30,123 trying to be like a human being in any situation, know. 129 00:06:31,791 --> 00:06:32,392 How about you, Ben? 130 00:06:32,392 --> 00:06:33,793 What's your definition? 131 00:06:33,793 --> 00:06:37,663 Well, I'm going to first read what the W.H.O. 132 00:06:38,531 --> 00:06:40,600 finds as burnout. 133 00:06:40,900 --> 00:06:44,470 You know, it's a state of vital exhaustion. 134 00:06:45,037 --> 00:06:47,774 Vital exhaustion, Yes. 135 00:06:47,774 --> 00:06:49,942 So life is being sucked out of. 136 00:06:49,976 --> 00:06:52,111 You on that first set? Yeah. 137 00:06:53,012 --> 00:06:56,883 I was like, wow, that's a that sounds really scary to me, you know, read that. 138 00:06:56,883 --> 00:06:57,683 And I'm like, Wow. 139 00:06:57,683 --> 00:06:58,017 Yeah. 140 00:06:58,017 --> 00:07:01,554 I would say, you know, for for me personally, I'm listening to what you're 141 00:07:01,988 --> 00:07:05,191 what's happening to you and what has happened to me and the both, 142 00:07:05,425 --> 00:07:07,727 both professionally and personally. 143 00:07:07,727 --> 00:07:10,062 I think burnout is when the 144 00:07:10,263 --> 00:07:13,166 for lack of a better term, the stress stress starts 145 00:07:13,166 --> 00:07:19,439 to affect your decision making and ability to do things. 146 00:07:19,472 --> 00:07:21,107 Mm hmm. Your focus? 147 00:07:21,107 --> 00:07:23,876 Yeah, that's that's kind of how I would describe burnout, 148 00:07:24,210 --> 00:07:27,113 I think, you know, because we all most people I feel like, 149 00:07:27,213 --> 00:07:29,582 have have almost too much on their plate right? 150 00:07:29,582 --> 00:07:31,083 And then you're kind of going through that. 151 00:07:31,083 --> 00:07:33,152 And in some ways you're like, oh, man, I'm, 152 00:07:33,152 --> 00:07:34,420 you know, working hard and doing this. 153 00:07:34,420 --> 00:07:39,926 But but then once you start either skipping things or pushing them out or, 154 00:07:40,893 --> 00:07:43,429 you know, just saying, Yep, I can't do this, 155 00:07:43,663 --> 00:07:47,767 I think that's when for me, like that's the definition of a burnout is 156 00:07:47,767 --> 00:07:53,406 when it all, all that life gives you starts to negatively impact 157 00:07:53,406 --> 00:07:56,375 what you're and I'm going to say this very specifically what you're doing. 158 00:07:56,642 --> 00:07:59,545 Yeah I mean there's all that you can never get rid of all stress 159 00:08:00,313 --> 00:08:04,550 and and some stress is good but when it starts to have an impact. 160 00:08:04,684 --> 00:08:06,919 Yeah that's. 161 00:08:06,919 --> 00:08:07,920 That's so important. 162 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,924 And just to double down on that, when you feel like 163 00:08:12,291 --> 00:08:14,627 we all have ways of managing our stress right. 164 00:08:14,627 --> 00:08:16,062 And I have my own too. 165 00:08:16,062 --> 00:08:19,932 I like to like to stay fit and exercise and that's a stress management technique 166 00:08:19,932 --> 00:08:20,600 I have. 167 00:08:20,633 --> 00:08:24,570 And when I'm stressed out during my stress management thing, right, 168 00:08:24,570 --> 00:08:26,572 because I'm thinking about the thing or it's in the way, 169 00:08:26,806 --> 00:08:28,541 it's a good sign that you're probably burning. 170 00:08:28,541 --> 00:08:29,342 I know. 171 00:08:29,675 --> 00:08:30,643 My view. 172 00:08:30,643 --> 00:08:33,012 I've thought about this probably way too much, but 173 00:08:34,046 --> 00:08:35,081 if I look at this as 174 00:08:35,081 --> 00:08:39,352 some sort of ebbing of flowing of stress and whatnot, I honestly feel like 175 00:08:39,352 --> 00:08:42,488 when you start to burn out, it's when you don't have energy 176 00:08:42,655 --> 00:08:45,992 to do the things that can fill your cup again, right? 177 00:08:45,992 --> 00:08:48,227 So you start actually like losing ground 178 00:08:48,995 --> 00:08:52,265 on on making forward progress for anything. 179 00:08:52,265 --> 00:08:54,267 And I think that's your function been right. 180 00:08:54,267 --> 00:08:56,569 So so 181 00:08:56,569 --> 00:08:59,939 you just get so overwhelmed that you're just not making progress 182 00:08:59,939 --> 00:09:02,308 in the right direction anymore and you're slipping backwards. 183 00:09:03,342 --> 00:09:06,445 And then to top that off, now you're starting to dig a hole. 184 00:09:07,346 --> 00:09:10,349 Getting out of that becomes part of the stress, you know? 185 00:09:10,550 --> 00:09:10,917 Right. 186 00:09:10,917 --> 00:09:13,953 And it just starts compounding all over the place. 187 00:09:13,953 --> 00:09:16,556 So, yeah, definitely experience that. 188 00:09:17,323 --> 00:09:19,559 Probably my time at Ticketmaster, 189 00:09:19,725 --> 00:09:24,330 we were implementing some governance on our data warehouse for CCP, 190 00:09:24,764 --> 00:09:28,100 which is a data protection Act that California enacted. 191 00:09:28,868 --> 00:09:31,537 And it was just working with people 192 00:09:32,104 --> 00:09:34,907 working overseas in the U.S. 193 00:09:35,041 --> 00:09:39,745 so many hours across the day, couldn't function at home with my family. 194 00:09:40,012 --> 00:09:41,113 And then, you know, it's it's 195 00:09:41,113 --> 00:09:44,383 one of those things where sometimes you just start staring at the screen 196 00:09:45,051 --> 00:09:48,020 and you don't even you can't even take that next step forward. 197 00:09:48,020 --> 00:09:49,455 Right. And even yeah. 198 00:09:49,455 --> 00:09:53,793 This was a really cool topic and I know I've been burnt out before. 199 00:09:53,793 --> 00:09:56,596 I actually feel myself burning out right now at work. 200 00:09:56,929 --> 00:09:58,664 I don't even know how to describe it. 201 00:09:58,664 --> 00:10:00,166 So sometimes it's there's 202 00:10:00,166 --> 00:10:04,537 a lot of extra stuff at home and so the families stressed. 203 00:10:04,537 --> 00:10:05,905 We just had a dog almost. 204 00:10:05,905 --> 00:10:08,140 I had to jump through hoops 205 00:10:08,174 --> 00:10:11,611 to get the right medicine and that becomes then a financial issue. 206 00:10:11,611 --> 00:10:13,512 And it started compounding at home 207 00:10:13,512 --> 00:10:16,315 that affected work, but that wasn't the main reason, I think. 208 00:10:16,482 --> 00:10:19,051 And it's really hard to identify 209 00:10:19,051 --> 00:10:22,955 those sources of burnout or what's like the main contributors. 210 00:10:22,955 --> 00:10:28,260 And I think for myself, that's the areas that I've been trying to really identify. 211 00:10:28,260 --> 00:10:30,396 I know there's a model called Wiser. 212 00:10:30,396 --> 00:10:32,465 I don't know if you guys have heard of this model. 213 00:10:32,465 --> 00:10:36,068 No, but it's more about emotional intelligence 214 00:10:36,068 --> 00:10:38,137 and how to recognize when things are going wrong. 215 00:10:38,170 --> 00:10:42,074 Watch, interpret, select, engage and reflect. 216 00:10:42,074 --> 00:10:43,843 And reflect. And reflect. Yeah. 217 00:10:43,843 --> 00:10:47,013 So there's an article on the big think about the wiser model. 218 00:10:47,013 --> 00:10:49,081 And I know about mindfulness. 219 00:10:49,081 --> 00:10:52,385 I know you're supposed to stop and take note of things going on, but 220 00:10:53,219 --> 00:10:55,588 sometimes stopping. 221 00:10:56,155 --> 00:10:59,725 It's really hard to put yourself in the space to actually, again, 222 00:10:59,725 --> 00:11:01,093 move forward from this. Right? 223 00:11:01,093 --> 00:11:03,863 And then throwing a model on top of that is like, 224 00:11:04,096 --> 00:11:06,732 Yeah, is the wiser model going to apply? 225 00:11:07,199 --> 00:11:09,635 The wiser, Yeah. I feel good and. 226 00:11:10,436 --> 00:11:12,071 I think a lot of people 227 00:11:13,706 --> 00:11:16,342 are aware or, or they or 228 00:11:16,676 --> 00:11:20,179 actually in one thing I was just thinking of as you were talking about that, 229 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,283 like, I don't know that I'm always self-aware to what's happening 230 00:11:24,850 --> 00:11:27,853 and then it also gets messed with something else, right? 231 00:11:28,654 --> 00:11:31,290 Like, you know, just like when somebody quits a job. 232 00:11:31,924 --> 00:11:34,226 Why did you quit? Oh, 233 00:11:34,627 --> 00:11:36,629 they were screwing me on my paycheck. 234 00:11:36,629 --> 00:11:38,831 They're asking me to work too much or my boss. 235 00:11:38,831 --> 00:11:40,633 My boss is a jerk. 236 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:45,104 Those might all be reasons, but at the end of the day, it was, 237 00:11:45,371 --> 00:11:48,207 you know, probably a large, you know, 238 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,277 bucket of reasons that comes in again. 239 00:11:51,277 --> 00:11:55,915 I bet a lot of people don't even know what they're experiencing is instead of 240 00:11:55,915 --> 00:11:58,984 just being angered at working too much, 241 00:11:59,351 --> 00:12:04,857 they're actually angered at burnout, which is a you know, again, 242 00:12:04,857 --> 00:12:09,028 as we kind of talked about maybe a a sense of letting 243 00:12:09,995 --> 00:12:12,364 the stress affect you, there's got to be a different way 244 00:12:12,364 --> 00:12:14,400 to word that because, of course, stress affects you. 245 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:15,501 But like 246 00:12:15,634 --> 00:12:19,505 you're saying, there's breadcrumbs along the way that are actively ignored. 247 00:12:19,505 --> 00:12:20,372 Right. Exactly. 248 00:12:20,372 --> 00:12:23,809 And well and even if you didn't or maybe didn't know. 249 00:12:23,843 --> 00:12:25,544 It, not actively. Yeah. Yeah. 250 00:12:25,544 --> 00:12:27,113 But just you didn't even know. 251 00:12:27,113 --> 00:12:29,548 Well I think instead of Yeah. 252 00:12:29,548 --> 00:12:34,053 Whether you don't do or don't ignore it, is it to normalize. 253 00:12:34,053 --> 00:12:36,655 Like I just keep going back to that that feeling of 254 00:12:37,156 --> 00:12:40,626 hey feeling the stress is, is just part of life, you know. 255 00:12:40,626 --> 00:12:42,528 Oh I've got, I've had this job or I 256 00:12:42,528 --> 00:12:46,966 maybe I want to be promoted or I want to advance my career. 257 00:12:46,966 --> 00:12:47,233 Right. 258 00:12:47,233 --> 00:12:48,000 So it's almost like, 259 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,804 you know, people who have that mentality, you know, put that on their shoulders 260 00:12:52,071 --> 00:12:56,175 in the context of you have a family, you have a life that's not just work. 261 00:12:56,575 --> 00:12:57,877 You've got issues that come up, 262 00:12:57,877 --> 00:13:02,148 you know, you know, pets and family, like all these things are all part of it. 263 00:13:02,148 --> 00:13:05,818 And so like, how much do you think the situation is? 264 00:13:05,818 --> 00:13:07,887 Just people expect it. 265 00:13:07,887 --> 00:13:12,992 And whether they call it burnout or not, just accept it as a part of life. 266 00:13:12,992 --> 00:13:15,194 And I think that's kind of the crux of what we want to, you know, 267 00:13:15,294 --> 00:13:16,295 get to the core of it. 268 00:13:16,295 --> 00:13:19,231 Right, is like, should we is it okay? 269 00:13:19,231 --> 00:13:21,100 Like, is there anything coming out of that? 270 00:13:21,100 --> 00:13:25,104 Or why do we really need to find ways to essentially 271 00:13:26,272 --> 00:13:28,140 rewire ourselves and 272 00:13:28,140 --> 00:13:33,279 our people and our businesses to not think that this is an acceptable way of being? 273 00:13:33,846 --> 00:13:37,316 Oh, this leads into I don't want to call it a rabbit hole 274 00:13:37,316 --> 00:13:41,187 because it's it's just a lot of great topics kind of packed into one area. 275 00:13:41,187 --> 00:13:44,423 Because from the perspective that I'm hearing right now, it's 276 00:13:44,790 --> 00:13:48,327 we have to be better at identifying when it's coming 277 00:13:48,894 --> 00:13:52,398 and then alleviating whatever the source of that is 278 00:13:52,898 --> 00:13:56,068 or being more empathetic to other people going through it. 279 00:13:56,702 --> 00:13:59,471 And I think that's that's missing for sure these days. 280 00:13:59,471 --> 00:14:03,275 And I know as like a middle level manager, you know, 281 00:14:03,576 --> 00:14:09,048 you get pressure from the top and and the bottom and it's almost impossible 282 00:14:09,048 --> 00:14:12,685 to to to eliminate all the sources that it can be coming from. 283 00:14:12,685 --> 00:14:15,821 So what without somebody actively 284 00:14:15,821 --> 00:14:18,424 working on your behalf, your boss, 285 00:14:19,291 --> 00:14:22,261 you know, who's probably going through their own shit. 286 00:14:22,328 --> 00:14:25,197 Right. You know, like it's this nasty cycle. 287 00:14:25,264 --> 00:14:28,067 On top of that, the business still needs to get run. 288 00:14:28,334 --> 00:14:31,370 And and I don't want to start that topic now, 289 00:14:31,370 --> 00:14:35,808 but this is into performance management and how that really does 290 00:14:35,808 --> 00:14:40,179 not matter when it comes to allowing for burnout. 291 00:14:40,212 --> 00:14:44,116 You know, failure, performance management is not a framework 292 00:14:44,116 --> 00:14:46,485 that's going to work for any of that stuff. Yeah, totally. 293 00:14:47,086 --> 00:14:48,420 I, I really like. 294 00:14:48,420 --> 00:14:52,291 Would you touched on about that there's a also really good chance 295 00:14:52,291 --> 00:14:55,794 that your your boss CEO h.R. 296 00:14:55,794 --> 00:14:59,064 Person is also experiencing some type of burnout. 297 00:14:59,164 --> 00:15:02,468 You know, the really the big question of their work has to go on. 298 00:15:02,468 --> 00:15:05,137 You know, take it from your private part of life, right? 299 00:15:05,137 --> 00:15:07,473 I mean, you you have to still show up for your family. 300 00:15:08,107 --> 00:15:09,675 Got to pick your kids up from school. 301 00:15:09,675 --> 00:15:11,610 You've still got to do that. 302 00:15:11,610 --> 00:15:14,580 There is no like, hey, this is we're going to go 303 00:15:14,580 --> 00:15:17,182 to, you know, a month retreat to get rid of burnout. 304 00:15:17,683 --> 00:15:21,120 So then the question I'd like to ask you guys is that I don't think there's a 305 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,890 like a solution like, hey, do this to get out of burnout. 306 00:15:25,190 --> 00:15:27,927 So then how do you tackle burnout? 307 00:15:28,027 --> 00:15:32,197 I mean, what what are some of the what are some of the tools or techniques, 308 00:15:32,231 --> 00:15:35,634 you know, some of the things that people can do to recognize burnout. 309 00:15:35,935 --> 00:15:37,403 Right. Address it. 310 00:15:37,403 --> 00:15:41,340 You know, get some help for it and and start to, you know, recover from it. 311 00:15:41,807 --> 00:15:45,411 And then, you know, then also like a lot of mental health issues, 312 00:15:45,744 --> 00:15:50,449 then to how do we help ourselves from getting back to that state again. 313 00:15:50,516 --> 00:15:52,151 Yeah. And that's really it too, right? 314 00:15:52,151 --> 00:15:55,988 Like mental health and I like the solution angle. 315 00:15:55,988 --> 00:15:59,692 The rough part is, is some micro stress happens 316 00:16:00,225 --> 00:16:03,295 just one and it's not enough to get you near the edge. 317 00:16:03,662 --> 00:16:06,732 At some point you've reached your ability to cope. 318 00:16:06,732 --> 00:16:09,201 And I would say that's probably the start of burnout. 319 00:16:09,702 --> 00:16:10,402 Right? 320 00:16:10,536 --> 00:16:13,973 And I would argue if you're just recognizing burnout 321 00:16:13,973 --> 00:16:18,110 at that point, it's already too late because the work to climb out is greater 322 00:16:18,110 --> 00:16:21,146 than it was just in some of the problems at the very beginning. 323 00:16:21,180 --> 00:16:22,147 Two things there. 324 00:16:22,147 --> 00:16:27,152 I think, again, if you if you just wait too long, it's a different problem. 325 00:16:27,152 --> 00:16:29,154 That's why I'd like the total leadership model 326 00:16:29,154 --> 00:16:31,223 and we'll share links in the in the show notes. 327 00:16:31,223 --> 00:16:33,926 But it kind of addresses all angles of your life 328 00:16:34,727 --> 00:16:37,796 so you can protect tively stop it from happening. 329 00:16:37,796 --> 00:16:40,799 And I think that's the only way for some reason, 330 00:16:40,966 --> 00:16:44,003 I mean, probably in the last two weeks I know I've come home from work 331 00:16:44,770 --> 00:16:48,007 and just snapped at one of my kids immediately 332 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,977 just because, you know, the TV's on, they're talking to me. 333 00:16:51,977 --> 00:16:54,279 Something's going on in the kitchen. The dogs are barking. 334 00:16:54,279 --> 00:16:56,382 And very quickly, 335 00:16:56,382 --> 00:17:00,085 I don't even know how to cope with the current world around me, you know? 336 00:17:00,285 --> 00:17:02,521 And I'm like, Can everybody just please stop? 337 00:17:02,755 --> 00:17:04,490 I have to go upstairs for for a minute. 338 00:17:04,490 --> 00:17:07,960 And I'm like, like, holy crap, what just happened to me? 339 00:17:07,993 --> 00:17:09,628 Mm hmm. Mm hmm. 340 00:17:09,661 --> 00:17:11,730 I love that you bring up the total leadership model, 341 00:17:11,730 --> 00:17:13,799 and I think we've all said it. 342 00:17:13,799 --> 00:17:17,369 Burnout is an integrated thing, right? 343 00:17:17,369 --> 00:17:18,904 And and, again, 344 00:17:18,904 --> 00:17:22,441 this is a bit into your rabbit hole, Brett, of there's so many topics here, 345 00:17:23,142 --> 00:17:24,109 but what I. 346 00:17:24,109 --> 00:17:28,881 What I'm trying to get across is it's not it's funny that it's always 347 00:17:29,381 --> 00:17:30,215 pronounced brought up. 348 00:17:30,215 --> 00:17:32,484 It's always in this context of work right. 349 00:17:32,484 --> 00:17:34,353 But you're right it's it's everything. 350 00:17:34,353 --> 00:17:36,155 It's just everything around you. 351 00:17:36,155 --> 00:17:40,125 And this the thing that I like to I think I think it actually 352 00:17:40,125 --> 00:17:41,660 comes from the total leadership model. 353 00:17:41,660 --> 00:17:43,529 If not, it's something that's been that 354 00:17:43,529 --> 00:17:47,066 I've read or that we've experienced or kind of dove into in the past. 355 00:17:47,332 --> 00:17:50,869 But it's pushing back against the term work life balance. 356 00:17:51,136 --> 00:17:52,704 Right. And I really like that. 357 00:17:52,704 --> 00:17:55,307 I can't I'll have to find where I read that. 358 00:17:55,307 --> 00:17:56,341 We'll have to share it as well. 359 00:17:56,341 --> 00:18:00,179 But pushing it back against the concept again of compartmentalizing. 360 00:18:00,279 --> 00:18:03,115 You have work and you have life and they should be in balance 361 00:18:03,449 --> 00:18:06,218 and no, it's like we need to find a way to integrate it. 362 00:18:06,485 --> 00:18:10,856 And I think why the work comes up as a theme, even 363 00:18:10,856 --> 00:18:14,893 with recognition of that, is because it's like one of the things that's honest. 364 00:18:14,893 --> 00:18:17,062 It's like so important, but it's it's actually kind of 365 00:18:17,062 --> 00:18:19,431 at the bottom of the list if you if you think about it right, 366 00:18:19,765 --> 00:18:24,002 like your kids, your family, your pets, your own mental well-being. 367 00:18:24,002 --> 00:18:24,303 Right. 368 00:18:24,303 --> 00:18:29,208 All these things, in my opinion, should rank above what's happening at your job. 369 00:18:29,208 --> 00:18:29,541 Right? 370 00:18:29,541 --> 00:18:30,943 Your career's really important 371 00:18:30,943 --> 00:18:33,579 in what you do with your career should be fulfilling 372 00:18:33,579 --> 00:18:35,414 and it's I mean, something that's super important to me. 373 00:18:35,414 --> 00:18:37,950 Like, I don't actually have kids, I've got pets. 374 00:18:37,950 --> 00:18:40,953 But the thing that I've been wrestling with in my most 375 00:18:40,953 --> 00:18:43,956 current bout of burnout is what's really important to me. 376 00:18:43,956 --> 00:18:47,292 You know, I, I've got privileges that have let me push work away 377 00:18:47,292 --> 00:18:50,462 for a little bit, but it's allowed me to tap into leadership. 378 00:18:50,596 --> 00:18:52,364 I appreciate my relationship, right? 379 00:18:52,364 --> 00:18:54,032 I like being able to do this with you. 380 00:18:54,032 --> 00:18:57,302 Like I'd much rather spend energy and and stress, right? 381 00:18:57,302 --> 00:19:00,339 Like if I have a stress bucket, I want to invest my stress bucket 382 00:19:00,339 --> 00:19:02,708 into doing stuff that's this and fulfilling and meaningful. 383 00:19:03,041 --> 00:19:06,211 And I would love for my workplace to, 384 00:19:06,478 --> 00:19:09,648 to to understand that and recognize that and mesh into that. 385 00:19:09,948 --> 00:19:12,818 And that's going to allow me to show up a lot better 386 00:19:13,252 --> 00:19:15,988 to to, to fulfill the missions of the organization. 387 00:19:15,988 --> 00:19:16,288 Right. 388 00:19:16,288 --> 00:19:19,525 Like because that's kind of the thing that's got to happen that's important, 389 00:19:19,525 --> 00:19:22,728 but it shouldn't come at the expense of what else is happening. 390 00:19:22,728 --> 00:19:24,663 Right? Shouldn't be a balancing act. 391 00:19:24,663 --> 00:19:29,434 It should be How do you weave this into everything else that is important to you? 392 00:19:29,635 --> 00:19:32,004 One of my first thoughts when you said this earlier, 393 00:19:32,037 --> 00:19:34,873 you had a friend that can compartmentalize work. 394 00:19:34,973 --> 00:19:36,708 Know. I'm not that person either. 395 00:19:36,708 --> 00:19:40,145 And my first thought was, man, he must have a perfect home life, 396 00:19:41,346 --> 00:19:41,647 right? 397 00:19:41,647 --> 00:19:43,182 If you can actually cut out of work, 398 00:19:43,182 --> 00:19:44,983 then everything must be great where you're going. 399 00:19:44,983 --> 00:19:47,219 And my life is messy. 400 00:19:47,219 --> 00:19:49,721 Be honest. Right. So isn't that isn't all. 401 00:19:49,755 --> 00:19:52,291 Are I cannot keep one from affecting the other. 402 00:19:52,291 --> 00:19:54,159 It's just not going to happen. 403 00:19:54,159 --> 00:19:56,895 And sometimes I think I'm not pushing myself hard enough 404 00:19:57,763 --> 00:19:59,431 if I'm not feeling stressed out. 405 00:19:59,431 --> 00:20:02,768 And I think that's something that that work puts on us from a 406 00:20:03,202 --> 00:20:07,005 a pressure point, which is part of the problem also in a lot of cases. 407 00:20:07,005 --> 00:20:11,843 And I want to go back to to this from a if I worked in a chicken plant, 408 00:20:12,211 --> 00:20:16,381 what does this look like versus, you know, I'm an information worker, right. 409 00:20:16,381 --> 00:20:18,917 And I still feel like I don't get enough time to sit down 410 00:20:18,917 --> 00:20:22,688 and just think about what I'm doing and I can I should get paid to think. 411 00:20:22,688 --> 00:20:26,091 I mean, that's that's what I'm what I'm getting paid for. 412 00:20:26,191 --> 00:20:29,061 And I get paid for dealing with stress maybe. 413 00:20:29,061 --> 00:20:29,928 I don't know. 414 00:20:29,928 --> 00:20:32,965 I can't speak for everyone, but I think that probably a lot of us 415 00:20:32,965 --> 00:20:38,036 have the ability to sit and think and be mindful that this is something 416 00:20:38,036 --> 00:20:42,140 that I do sometimes instead of allowing myself that quiet moment, 417 00:20:43,475 --> 00:20:45,677 I pick up the phone 418 00:20:45,677 --> 00:20:49,348 or I look for the next task or email 419 00:20:49,348 --> 00:20:52,818 or to do list item instead of saying 420 00:20:53,118 --> 00:20:56,989 instead of getting, you know, like like, you know, you went to call early, right? 421 00:20:57,222 --> 00:21:00,025 Somebody said, All right, guys, I'm going to give you 23 minutes of your day 422 00:21:00,025 --> 00:21:02,461 back, you know? Right. And go get them. 423 00:21:02,594 --> 00:21:07,199 And instead of saying, hey, I've got 23 minutes that I can now 424 00:21:07,499 --> 00:21:11,803 take and focus and think and free, 425 00:21:12,004 --> 00:21:15,641 free form, think about work or whatever we what do we do? 426 00:21:16,008 --> 00:21:18,977 We take that extra 23 minutes and we jump to that. 427 00:21:19,111 --> 00:21:21,313 That's what I do. I jump to the next thing, you know. 428 00:21:21,780 --> 00:21:24,883 And so I think there has to be a lot of like there has to be 429 00:21:25,484 --> 00:21:27,753 ownership taken a reckoning. Oh, yeah. 430 00:21:30,289 --> 00:21:32,190 I think I mean, I think we have to take, 431 00:21:32,190 --> 00:21:35,761 you know, as a as an employee, I have to take ownership of that. 432 00:21:35,961 --> 00:21:37,562 And, you know, and again, 433 00:21:37,562 --> 00:21:39,031 I as we're all trying 434 00:21:39,031 --> 00:21:42,901 to figure this stuff out, I mean, your boss isn't always going to, 435 00:21:43,302 --> 00:21:47,739 you know, or supervisors or whatever or, you know, with a top line management 436 00:21:48,173 --> 00:21:53,412 is not always going to even be able to give you the best way to do that, right? 437 00:21:53,979 --> 00:21:56,081 Mm hmm. I mean, you know, because. 438 00:21:56,248 --> 00:21:58,650 Because it just doesn't work out for everyone the same way, right? 439 00:21:58,650 --> 00:22:02,354 Well, hey, take take 30 minutes Monday morning and, you know, like, 440 00:22:02,554 --> 00:22:03,388 like, meditate. 441 00:22:03,388 --> 00:22:05,424 But, you know, that's not always realistic. 442 00:22:05,424 --> 00:22:06,692 So I'm not sure. 443 00:22:06,692 --> 00:22:08,660 I really like what you just said there. 444 00:22:08,660 --> 00:22:12,497 I will commit to you guys that this week at some point will tell my team 445 00:22:12,798 --> 00:22:16,101 just in the morning, make sure sometime in the middle of the day 446 00:22:16,702 --> 00:22:18,937 you go for a walk, you get up from your chair. 447 00:22:19,037 --> 00:22:19,304 Mm hmm. 448 00:22:20,372 --> 00:22:21,206 Get away from. 449 00:22:21,206 --> 00:22:22,808 Get away from the desk for a little bit. 450 00:22:22,808 --> 00:22:24,776 Yeah. Don't take your phone either. Right. 451 00:22:24,776 --> 00:22:27,012 Leave your phone at your desk or turn it off. Right. 452 00:22:27,012 --> 00:22:29,948 And what's a are instructor Carry Plemons. 453 00:22:29,948 --> 00:22:31,717 They always talked about the shower, Right? 454 00:22:31,717 --> 00:22:32,117 Like that's 455 00:22:32,117 --> 00:22:36,388 where your best ideas come from because you don't have anything bug in you. 456 00:22:36,421 --> 00:22:37,923 You're just in there with shampoo. 457 00:22:37,923 --> 00:22:38,557 And even that. 458 00:22:38,557 --> 00:22:38,790 Right? 459 00:22:38,790 --> 00:22:41,760 Like, so I love what you said, Bret, because I think it's 460 00:22:42,627 --> 00:22:45,197 And Ben, you you were the one who brought the original point. 461 00:22:45,330 --> 00:22:48,467 It's so easy to jump to the next thing or bring out your phone 462 00:22:48,467 --> 00:22:49,534 to distract yourself. Right. 463 00:22:49,534 --> 00:22:52,738 So and what made me think of that as like I took my phone in the shower. 464 00:22:52,738 --> 00:22:54,306 Sometimes it's waterproof. 465 00:22:54,306 --> 00:22:56,942 It's great time to listen to podcasts like you. 466 00:22:56,942 --> 00:22:59,010 Really? I do. I really do. 467 00:22:59,010 --> 00:23:02,948 And I try not I try to take those moments to be mindful because. 468 00:23:03,048 --> 00:23:04,216 You're in there or something. 469 00:23:04,216 --> 00:23:07,285 And I just, you know, it's like there's a little slot up on the wall 470 00:23:07,285 --> 00:23:11,456 kind of away from the water, so it's like getting doused, you know, and yeah, so. 471 00:23:11,456 --> 00:23:15,260 But you're not actively like swiping in the shower 472 00:23:16,461 --> 00:23:17,562 room is Exactly. 473 00:23:17,562 --> 00:23:21,099 Sometimes I got to, you know, skip the ads, you know, and I know 474 00:23:21,099 --> 00:23:24,469 I'm just teasing, but I think I can say to merge 475 00:23:24,469 --> 00:23:27,606 these points, I think it's important for for the leaders. 476 00:23:27,606 --> 00:23:27,873 Right. 477 00:23:27,873 --> 00:23:28,740 And I think to 478 00:23:28,740 --> 00:23:31,810 to maybe bring us into this this area of like, okay, how are we going 479 00:23:31,810 --> 00:23:35,680 to talk to our listeners and to folks who maybe are in positions of leadership 480 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,750 or to do something or even as an individual employee. 481 00:23:38,750 --> 00:23:40,285 Right. Like, what can we do about this? 482 00:23:40,285 --> 00:23:41,486 I think 483 00:23:41,953 --> 00:23:44,723 the top to top line item is like culture, right? 484 00:23:44,756 --> 00:23:48,493 What is the culture that hopefully your whole organization 485 00:23:48,493 --> 00:23:52,431 is living right in terms of are they are 486 00:23:52,431 --> 00:23:56,535 your leaders behaving and acting in a way that acknowledges that burnout is real? 487 00:23:56,535 --> 00:23:58,603 It hits us differently and for different reasons. 488 00:23:58,970 --> 00:24:02,541 And there's there should be allowances and acceptance of that happens 489 00:24:02,541 --> 00:24:03,842 and we can work around that. 490 00:24:03,842 --> 00:24:08,013 We will be a part of helping you get out of that hole and not make it deeper. 491 00:24:08,580 --> 00:24:12,384 And I think you you're suggesting, Bret, as like, hey, for my team, 492 00:24:12,651 --> 00:24:16,621 I want to start to build that culture and encourage them via an assignment, right. 493 00:24:16,621 --> 00:24:19,324 That does have specific instructions, right. 494 00:24:19,324 --> 00:24:22,694 Like and then for a point like it may not work for everybody. 495 00:24:23,061 --> 00:24:26,765 I think just the practice of, hey, take this time 496 00:24:27,132 --> 00:24:31,002 to think about what is important to you or like how you might do that differently. 497 00:24:31,203 --> 00:24:33,572 That's the starting point, I think, for anything, right? 498 00:24:33,572 --> 00:24:37,409 I think that's a starting point for you've got to take a step back 499 00:24:37,409 --> 00:24:40,912 from yourself, look at your surroundings, do some introspection. 500 00:24:40,912 --> 00:24:41,079 Right. 501 00:24:41,079 --> 00:24:44,349 What's happening to me and my world around me 502 00:24:44,349 --> 00:24:48,086 and really focusing on like what's important, What do I need 503 00:24:48,086 --> 00:24:51,756 to be thinking about, what I need to be working on and not even work? 504 00:24:51,756 --> 00:24:52,924 Right, Right. Just like in Denver. 505 00:24:52,924 --> 00:24:56,995 Like what is what's driving the feelings that I'm feeling? 506 00:24:56,995 --> 00:25:00,599 And that could be a way to help people recognize am burning out or 507 00:25:01,132 --> 00:25:04,503 I'm at an organization that is tolerant of burnout 508 00:25:04,503 --> 00:25:07,639 and just expects it, or maybe they don't recognize it. 509 00:25:07,672 --> 00:25:12,310 So I think it's it's culture and it's, you know, where we, 510 00:25:12,611 --> 00:25:15,914 you know, have some time and have done some thinking and have had some experience 511 00:25:15,914 --> 00:25:20,385 and and pass on those learnings is is the thing for us to do is to 512 00:25:21,086 --> 00:25:24,422 this is how you recognize it and these are some things that we might be able to do 513 00:25:24,422 --> 00:25:27,259 as a as a group, as a business, as a team to 514 00:25:27,425 --> 00:25:31,396 to not let this, you know, be a thing anymore and not to propagate. 515 00:25:31,396 --> 00:25:33,798 Yeah, we got to stop saying the F-word. 516 00:25:35,834 --> 00:25:36,902 I can't wait. 517 00:25:36,968 --> 00:25:38,336 Okay, fine. 518 00:25:38,336 --> 00:25:40,438 Fine, fine. Fine, fine. 519 00:25:40,438 --> 00:25:41,306 How are you doing today? 520 00:25:41,306 --> 00:25:41,873 I'm fine. 521 00:25:41,873 --> 00:25:44,776 It's. Oh, hey, Did you get all your stuff done? Oh, yeah, I'm fine. 522 00:25:44,776 --> 00:25:45,343 That's good. 523 00:25:45,343 --> 00:25:49,481 It's the meme with the yellow dog sitting in the fire, right? 524 00:25:49,681 --> 00:25:52,350 Oh, yeah. All room's burning, and it's like, it's fine. This is fine. 525 00:25:52,450 --> 00:25:54,452 I honestly haven't seen that meme, but. 526 00:25:54,452 --> 00:25:55,687 Yeah, but I. 527 00:25:55,687 --> 00:25:57,155 But no, but that's. 528 00:25:57,155 --> 00:25:58,323 But that's what we do, right. 529 00:25:58,323 --> 00:26:00,692 We've and yes. Anybody. That's fine. 530 00:26:00,692 --> 00:26:01,059 Yeah. 531 00:26:01,059 --> 00:26:05,764 And it's hard to say what's going on and also scary. 532 00:26:06,331 --> 00:26:08,633 How are you doing. Oh I'm actually doing really bad. 533 00:26:08,733 --> 00:26:11,369 Some of them might even be like self-incriminating things. 534 00:26:11,369 --> 00:26:14,372 Well, I kind of screwed up at home 535 00:26:14,372 --> 00:26:18,209 and I blew off work and, you know, like, you know, I'm there, but. 536 00:26:18,376 --> 00:26:20,712 Or whatever it is. But that's that's what we do. 537 00:26:20,879 --> 00:26:24,616 There's a there's a check in text technique from from a leadership 538 00:26:24,616 --> 00:26:27,919 training that I went to that was not, you know, how are you doing? 539 00:26:27,919 --> 00:26:30,121 Let's get the pleasantries out of the way. 540 00:26:30,121 --> 00:26:31,990 But it's really how are you doing? 541 00:26:31,990 --> 00:26:33,391 Really, really. 542 00:26:33,558 --> 00:26:35,560 And you just be quiet 543 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,264 and let somebody like, fill that quiet space with with the truth. 544 00:26:39,431 --> 00:26:40,932 Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. 545 00:26:40,932 --> 00:26:44,169 I mean, obviously, you have to start from a place of trust, as always. 546 00:26:44,169 --> 00:26:48,740 But, yeah, I really enjoyed that concept of, like, how are you doing? 547 00:26:48,740 --> 00:26:49,307 Really? Really. 548 00:26:49,307 --> 00:26:52,410 And it actually gave me permission as a leader 549 00:26:52,410 --> 00:26:55,780 to be more vulnerable and say, Hey, you know, what up? 550 00:26:55,780 --> 00:26:58,216 I am not feeling motivated to date. 551 00:26:58,216 --> 00:26:59,117 I'm just really not. 552 00:26:59,117 --> 00:27:02,187 I'm probably going to go check out for an hour and see 553 00:27:02,187 --> 00:27:05,690 if I can get back to where we're at and modeling that behavior. 554 00:27:05,690 --> 00:27:06,591 But it's hard for me 555 00:27:06,591 --> 00:27:10,962 to even recognize that I am stubborn in a way, pushing forward. 556 00:27:10,996 --> 00:27:11,997 It takes somebody 557 00:27:11,997 --> 00:27:15,800 to call it out and be like, Hey, are you like, How are you actually doing? 558 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,203 Do you need to go take time? 559 00:27:18,203 --> 00:27:19,938 And that maybe that doesn't happen? 560 00:27:19,938 --> 00:27:20,972 I don't know. 561 00:27:20,972 --> 00:27:23,308 I'd also love to see how this applies though. 562 00:27:23,308 --> 00:27:26,845 Back to like somebody working in a chicken plant, you know, pecked and chickens. 563 00:27:26,845 --> 00:27:27,979 Does this fly there? 564 00:27:27,979 --> 00:27:28,279 You know, 565 00:27:28,279 --> 00:27:33,451 I think about as privileges, we are to say I want to go work and have purpose. 566 00:27:33,451 --> 00:27:35,887 Yeah. How does that work in the chicken packing plant? 567 00:27:35,887 --> 00:27:37,922 Why do you have to have the best leaders 568 00:27:38,523 --> 00:27:41,960 in the world to make that, like a rewarding environment to go to? 569 00:27:42,193 --> 00:27:42,727 Mm hmm. 570 00:27:42,727 --> 00:27:43,361 Mm hmm. 571 00:27:43,361 --> 00:27:47,899 Purpose driven business is a big part of that. And 572 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:50,635 sticking with the chicken 573 00:27:50,635 --> 00:27:54,372 packing example, you know, as a leader, putting. 574 00:27:54,372 --> 00:27:57,542 Trying to put myself in the shoes of the executive 575 00:27:57,942 --> 00:28:01,746 or a board executive officer for that type of organization, 576 00:28:01,980 --> 00:28:05,216 you got to think the message would be, you know, you're not just packing chickens. 577 00:28:05,216 --> 00:28:07,952 You're you're feeding families, you know, just producing units. 578 00:28:07,952 --> 00:28:11,823 For us as an organization, you're providing health to, you know, 579 00:28:11,856 --> 00:28:13,358 people who need it. Right? 580 00:28:13,358 --> 00:28:16,261 And because because those those roles are important 581 00:28:16,261 --> 00:28:20,298 and those those people deserve recognition and they deserve all the same 582 00:28:20,432 --> 00:28:23,601 acknowledgment that your life we all encounter the same things in life. 583 00:28:23,601 --> 00:28:25,203 You know, we all it all matters. 584 00:28:25,203 --> 00:28:29,274 And the stressors might look different, but they hit us in very similar ways. 585 00:28:29,641 --> 00:28:33,878 And to be able to allow a worker 586 00:28:33,945 --> 00:28:38,616 who is packing chickens one day for him to be him or her to come in and say, 587 00:28:39,284 --> 00:28:42,721 you know, like, hey, I'm dealing with a family issue right now 588 00:28:42,721 --> 00:28:46,291 and I know I'm scheduled to work this eight hour shift or whatever it is. 589 00:28:46,491 --> 00:28:48,460 And I just don't know if I can do that. 590 00:28:48,460 --> 00:28:51,362 And and I think there's also things like safety around that, right? 591 00:28:51,362 --> 00:28:54,232 Like, you know, you know, so so what else are you impacting? 592 00:28:54,666 --> 00:28:58,937 And are you a leader who's going to be able to say, hey, yes, 593 00:28:58,937 --> 00:29:02,474 the the units that you provide that you're supposed to manage today, 594 00:29:03,241 --> 00:29:05,744 they're not more important than what you are dealing 595 00:29:05,744 --> 00:29:07,712 with as a human being, as a person. 596 00:29:07,712 --> 00:29:13,685 The the profit that we're going to forego or defer because of the situations 597 00:29:13,685 --> 00:29:17,122 that are impacting you, my employee, we acknowledge it. 598 00:29:17,122 --> 00:29:18,189 We'll take that on. 599 00:29:18,189 --> 00:29:19,824 We'll push against the markets for that. 600 00:29:19,824 --> 00:29:23,394 And we'll stand up to be a different type of leader 601 00:29:23,795 --> 00:29:25,830 for for those type of situations. 602 00:29:25,830 --> 00:29:27,398 I think it allows those employees 603 00:29:27,398 --> 00:29:29,934 to show up, to be like, Hey, I am making a difference here. 604 00:29:30,602 --> 00:29:32,971 You know, I'm not just doing this thing. 605 00:29:33,571 --> 00:29:36,074 I'm making an actual difference. 606 00:29:36,074 --> 00:29:41,112 And my my leaders actually live that they breathe that they support that. 607 00:29:41,479 --> 00:29:45,450 And I know I feel safe to bring those up and I think is missing. 608 00:29:45,450 --> 00:29:47,619 I think there's just so much of that missing. 609 00:29:48,086 --> 00:29:52,690 And one of the questions I want to like from both of you perspectives currently 610 00:29:52,690 --> 00:29:55,527 and maybe even historically is like, do you feel like your circle 611 00:29:56,060 --> 00:29:58,530 specifically work provides that right? 612 00:29:58,530 --> 00:30:01,299 Brett, You're good at living that culture in your own because you know better. 613 00:30:01,699 --> 00:30:04,235 Does your organization believe that right then? 614 00:30:04,235 --> 00:30:04,836 I don't know. 615 00:30:04,836 --> 00:30:05,937 You know what it's like for you 616 00:30:05,937 --> 00:30:10,375 in your professional situation, but do do your leadership and is your 617 00:30:10,441 --> 00:30:14,612 your supervision, you know, would they be okay with that type of mentality 618 00:30:14,846 --> 00:30:17,982 at any point in your your operations? Right. 619 00:30:18,950 --> 00:30:19,317 What I 620 00:30:19,317 --> 00:30:22,253 can say that is I think everybody wants that 621 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,790 execution on that is is a very different thing. 622 00:30:26,224 --> 00:30:30,829 Let me like say one other thing to just to maybe give you some more permission. 623 00:30:31,296 --> 00:30:33,798 And and I got this from a friend here recently as well, 624 00:30:34,199 --> 00:30:36,467 is I think it's okay 625 00:30:37,168 --> 00:30:41,005 and I think it should be the standard where you don't have to say why 626 00:30:41,472 --> 00:30:44,742 like you don't have to give me or as a leader right to do, 627 00:30:44,776 --> 00:30:47,879 you don't have to break anything down just to say, hey, I need any time. 628 00:30:49,347 --> 00:30:52,550 I can't be here today, like I've got something going on 629 00:30:53,117 --> 00:30:55,920 and I just need you to be okay with it, right sort of thing. 630 00:30:56,221 --> 00:30:58,489 And I think that's the part that's missing, right? 631 00:30:58,489 --> 00:31:00,925 It's like being vulnerable is hard. Like, Yeah. 632 00:31:00,992 --> 00:31:02,660 Let alone with people you feel safe with. 633 00:31:03,828 --> 00:31:05,763 Extend that to strangers and your boss, right? 634 00:31:05,763 --> 00:31:06,931 It's like, no way. 635 00:31:06,931 --> 00:31:08,266 Like, no way. 636 00:31:08,266 --> 00:31:11,336 Like, people don't do that unless you have, like, a really safe spot. 637 00:31:11,669 --> 00:31:13,605 So I think the M.O. 638 00:31:13,605 --> 00:31:16,908 needs to be I don't need reasons and I don't need you to explain. 639 00:31:16,908 --> 00:31:18,810 I don't need you to give me any depth. 640 00:31:18,810 --> 00:31:21,446 You just need to tell me that you need X, Y, Z, 641 00:31:21,713 --> 00:31:24,449 and we're going to help you get X, Y, Z. 642 00:31:24,782 --> 00:31:27,852 Yes, I 100% think I could do that, 643 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,724 and I don't think it would be any questions asked or anything. 644 00:31:32,724 --> 00:31:32,924 Right. 645 00:31:32,924 --> 00:31:36,728 You know, if I said, hey, I mean, I, I need a personal day or something, right? 646 00:31:36,761 --> 00:31:38,630 I'm, I'm out today or something. 647 00:31:38,630 --> 00:31:43,501 I don't think anyone would question or ask and they would they could give that the 648 00:31:43,801 --> 00:31:49,240 the problem and then the the chicken packer is, you know, the paid part. 649 00:31:49,607 --> 00:31:53,244 And I'm sure I don't know, but I can only imagine 650 00:31:53,311 --> 00:31:56,648 how much safety drives behaviors at meatpacking plant. 651 00:31:57,081 --> 00:32:03,154 So I'm sure that they are very aware like, hey, you know this 652 00:32:03,154 --> 00:32:07,225 this person's head is not screwed on street today, you know, whatever. 653 00:32:07,458 --> 00:32:10,495 But we're we're going to give them a pass because we don't want anyone to get hurt. 654 00:32:10,862 --> 00:32:12,063 Of course, then. 655 00:32:12,063 --> 00:32:12,964 But you know. 656 00:32:12,964 --> 00:32:15,400 But what does that do financially? 657 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,836 You know, if it eats into your PTO time or you're in or vacation 658 00:32:18,836 --> 00:32:23,241 sick days or whatever, I mean, then now you're coming to cultural things. 659 00:32:23,808 --> 00:32:27,979 Hey, I only have X amount of time off. 660 00:32:28,513 --> 00:32:29,647 I want to take a vacation. 661 00:32:29,647 --> 00:32:31,082 I want to do that. 662 00:32:31,082 --> 00:32:34,185 I'm not going to waste one of those days on, 663 00:32:34,786 --> 00:32:37,322 you know, feeling bad or sorry for myself. 664 00:32:37,522 --> 00:32:38,990 I have follow up questions. 665 00:32:38,990 --> 00:32:40,758 Yeah. So one being, huh? 666 00:32:40,758 --> 00:32:42,860 So you feel safe doing that? 667 00:32:42,860 --> 00:32:45,663 You feel that's something that anyone 668 00:32:45,663 --> 00:32:48,533 in your organization feels like they could do? 669 00:32:48,900 --> 00:32:52,036 I'm insulated from the factory workers. 670 00:32:52,203 --> 00:32:52,837 Okay. 671 00:32:53,237 --> 00:32:53,905 Okay. Which. 672 00:32:53,905 --> 00:32:56,574 Which would be more like what we're talking about here, Right? 673 00:32:56,574 --> 00:32:56,941 Okay. 674 00:32:56,941 --> 00:33:00,345 I mean, using an example like that. 675 00:33:00,345 --> 00:33:00,678 Sure. 676 00:33:00,678 --> 00:33:05,650 And, and, you know, and my company offers unlimited PTO. 677 00:33:05,650 --> 00:33:06,451 Oh, okay. 678 00:33:06,451 --> 00:33:09,187 Which is that sneaky way of 679 00:33:09,787 --> 00:33:12,023 being being very supportive, 680 00:33:12,690 --> 00:33:15,526 but but also realizing that the culture 681 00:33:16,661 --> 00:33:19,097 of American workers 682 00:33:19,564 --> 00:33:22,967 is that they are not going to use all their vacation time. 683 00:33:23,034 --> 00:33:25,370 Right. And 684 00:33:25,403 --> 00:33:29,340 well, the culture of the company decides whether that's an actual benefit or not. 685 00:33:29,340 --> 00:33:29,874 Yeah. Yeah. 686 00:33:29,874 --> 00:33:33,478 So aside from that, though, so I'm insulated from 687 00:33:34,145 --> 00:33:35,880 really what we're talking about here, right? 688 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:40,785 Because because what we're really talking about is for somebody 689 00:33:40,785 --> 00:33:44,055 that does not have that flexibility right. 690 00:33:45,023 --> 00:33:47,191 And they are, you know, it's like, hey, 691 00:33:47,191 --> 00:33:49,427 you're you've you've got 692 00:33:50,495 --> 00:33:52,530 14 days of vacation time. Mm hmm. 693 00:33:52,797 --> 00:33:53,398 Mm hmm. 694 00:33:53,664 --> 00:33:58,102 And and if they are not able to have a paid 695 00:33:58,569 --> 00:34:02,073 absence due to mental health, now you're back to the thing. 696 00:34:02,073 --> 00:34:04,909 Well, that that's that may be great that they recognize that 697 00:34:05,143 --> 00:34:07,879 and that, but they also even add to more burnout 698 00:34:07,912 --> 00:34:13,151 really is a mind shift that people need to recognize. 699 00:34:13,251 --> 00:34:16,454 So it's probably on both parties from a business perspective. 700 00:34:16,621 --> 00:34:20,792 You need to incentivize the company, Hey, why do you want to do this? 701 00:34:21,059 --> 00:34:24,962 Because if you have, you know, people with better mental health, 702 00:34:25,263 --> 00:34:29,867 they stay longer, they're more productive, you know, say, employee hours in a day. 703 00:34:29,867 --> 00:34:31,035 But, you know, they're they're better. 704 00:34:31,035 --> 00:34:34,072 They're this and that and and then also put 705 00:34:34,705 --> 00:34:38,342 like I said, there has to be at least equal ownership 706 00:34:38,342 --> 00:34:43,281 for the employee, the individual to recognize that this is happening. 707 00:34:44,582 --> 00:34:46,217 And takes to kind of 708 00:34:46,217 --> 00:34:49,020 get to a point to express that that negre. 709 00:34:49,020 --> 00:34:51,089 Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 710 00:34:51,355 --> 00:34:53,291 What do you think, Brett? 711 00:34:53,291 --> 00:34:56,227 Brett Scott A very interesting look on his face. 712 00:34:56,227 --> 00:34:58,062 Like he doesn't believe me at all. 713 00:34:58,062 --> 00:35:01,599 Yeah, I think you really need to point some people in the right direction 714 00:35:01,599 --> 00:35:02,834 sometimes. Yeah. 715 00:35:02,834 --> 00:35:05,002 Almost like an addict in some ways. 716 00:35:05,369 --> 00:35:07,839 I have no doubt there are people in the workforce 717 00:35:07,839 --> 00:35:11,642 that will defend their work ethic and contain 718 00:35:11,642 --> 00:35:15,213 you to burnout and expect others to burn out and call it work ethic. 719 00:35:15,213 --> 00:35:19,016 You know, I kind of agree that it has to be equal parts on them. 720 00:35:19,016 --> 00:35:22,420 There has to be some sort of catalyst to change that, 721 00:35:22,420 --> 00:35:25,656 that view of people and present why this is better. 722 00:35:25,656 --> 00:35:29,260 I read this book called The Burnout Fix of you've seen this up, 723 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:30,595 put that in the show notes. Do 724 00:35:31,596 --> 00:35:32,630 was it a good book? 725 00:35:32,630 --> 00:35:35,133 It was good. I you know, I cheated a little bit. 726 00:35:35,133 --> 00:35:38,436 I used Blinkist just gives you like a summary of a book. 727 00:35:38,469 --> 00:35:40,771 And I do that first and see if I like the book. 728 00:35:40,771 --> 00:35:43,040 And then I'll go back and read the whole thing. 729 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,276 But good blank in that it mentions there's 730 00:35:45,276 --> 00:35:48,179 120,000 deaths a year from chronic stress. 731 00:35:49,013 --> 00:35:51,649 Really? That's a lot. That's a lot. 732 00:35:51,749 --> 00:35:55,319 I don't even think I ever thought that stress would be like a reason for death. 733 00:35:55,319 --> 00:35:57,421 Honestly, chronic stress like that. 734 00:35:57,421 --> 00:35:58,856 I mean, this is crazy to think about. 735 00:35:58,856 --> 00:36:00,892 Yeah, I mean, I have hypertension, right? 736 00:36:00,892 --> 00:36:03,161 I'm I there's no doubt. 737 00:36:03,161 --> 00:36:04,695 And I don't I 738 00:36:04,695 --> 00:36:07,231 sometimes I don't know how to get out of the cycle, 739 00:36:07,231 --> 00:36:09,300 you know, talking about needing other people's help. 740 00:36:09,300 --> 00:36:12,003 You know, it's jumping out to me though, just hearing hearing you say that 741 00:36:12,837 --> 00:36:17,575 and it's it's I am ever so slightly tongue in cheek 742 00:36:17,808 --> 00:36:21,212 when I say this, but I actually feel like I sincerely feel this. 743 00:36:22,046 --> 00:36:25,082 Everyone needs to go to therapy, everyone. 744 00:36:25,416 --> 00:36:27,451 And I think it would be 745 00:36:28,419 --> 00:36:29,587 it again 746 00:36:29,587 --> 00:36:32,623 is maybe controversial even, but like 747 00:36:32,623 --> 00:36:36,260 it's like mandatory therapy when you come to work for my company, right? 748 00:36:36,260 --> 00:36:41,265 Like, yeah, we're going to schedule an hour in a month. 749 00:36:41,666 --> 00:36:43,334 Here's some frequency right 750 00:36:43,334 --> 00:36:46,337 where a therapist is going to come sit in your office or, 751 00:36:46,437 --> 00:36:50,341 you know, you as an employee and they're just going to talk to you, right? 752 00:36:50,341 --> 00:36:52,343 And you're going to get paid for it. 753 00:36:52,343 --> 00:36:56,214 And it's just a space for you to express whatever you're feeling. 754 00:36:56,447 --> 00:36:59,850 It's got all the confidentiality that normally come with a therapist 755 00:36:59,850 --> 00:37:02,987 patient relationship being that catalyst for people, right. 756 00:37:02,987 --> 00:37:08,259 Really pushing them into this this space where, hey, it's 757 00:37:08,326 --> 00:37:12,997 okay for you to feel what you're feeling, Whatever it is you would want someone. 758 00:37:13,598 --> 00:37:16,000 The way that I'm picturing this scenario in my head, 759 00:37:16,234 --> 00:37:21,639 this therapist or team therapists would, you know, also have company culture 760 00:37:21,639 --> 00:37:25,176 backing them in the sense that I want that employee 761 00:37:25,176 --> 00:37:28,212 to feel like they they do have the space to. 762 00:37:28,713 --> 00:37:29,747 Well let me let me. 763 00:37:29,747 --> 00:37:30,881 Yeah yeah push. 764 00:37:30,881 --> 00:37:34,852 On that or at least maybe throw this out there and see what you think. 765 00:37:34,852 --> 00:37:37,888 But it's less about the company culture driving that. 766 00:37:37,888 --> 00:37:41,459 Yeah, but that would actually be leadership's commitment 767 00:37:41,459 --> 00:37:43,261 to changing culture because they would be 768 00:37:43,261 --> 00:37:46,397 carving out the space and it would be an expectation for you. 769 00:37:46,397 --> 00:37:46,831 Yeah. 770 00:37:46,831 --> 00:37:49,867 To go get your head on straight and that nothing says that 771 00:37:49,867 --> 00:37:53,971 leadership believes in something more than that type of commitment. 772 00:37:54,005 --> 00:37:55,106 Mm hmm. Yeah. 773 00:37:55,106 --> 00:37:57,375 I don't ever see that being a thing that happens for real. 774 00:37:58,009 --> 00:37:58,743 I bet you there. 775 00:37:58,743 --> 00:38:00,611 I bet you there's companies out there that do that. 776 00:38:00,611 --> 00:38:02,580 I mean, I would love this. 777 00:38:02,580 --> 00:38:03,648 Like, that's a good point. 778 00:38:03,648 --> 00:38:06,851 Like, we should look in research and find examples because I just, 779 00:38:07,084 --> 00:38:10,621 I think that there's ways to see it. 780 00:38:10,621 --> 00:38:14,592 I think it's one it's like it'd be it's a very tangible example of how you could 781 00:38:14,592 --> 00:38:19,230 demonstrate to your your organization that we see you as a whole person 782 00:38:19,530 --> 00:38:23,301 and we don't want you just to balance your work and your life. 783 00:38:23,401 --> 00:38:24,902 We want you to feel like 784 00:38:24,902 --> 00:38:27,838 this is part of your life and you can manage with your life 785 00:38:27,838 --> 00:38:32,610 and that this is important, but you've got the right level of importance around it. 786 00:38:32,910 --> 00:38:36,781 And you're not using work either as a even as an escape right? 787 00:38:36,781 --> 00:38:37,014 Right. 788 00:38:37,014 --> 00:38:40,051 Then it goes back to the idea of, hey, I'm showing up to work 789 00:38:40,051 --> 00:38:42,019 because I want my worth actually to stand out, right? 790 00:38:42,019 --> 00:38:44,955 Like I only have to work 40 hours a week, but I'm going to put in 60 791 00:38:44,955 --> 00:38:47,458 and I'm going to show them that I deserve that, you know? 792 00:38:47,458 --> 00:38:48,993 You know what I mean? And 793 00:38:49,994 --> 00:38:51,529 I think it's up to leadership in the culture 794 00:38:51,529 --> 00:38:54,131 to kind of push back against that, if that's what you believe in. Right. 795 00:38:54,165 --> 00:38:56,267 And if that's something you want to instill right. 796 00:38:56,667 --> 00:39:00,438 You know, not this thing of like, hey, you're a great performer. 797 00:39:00,438 --> 00:39:03,307 You work a lot of hours, You're you're you're here. 798 00:39:03,307 --> 00:39:05,176 So, so many parts of the day. 799 00:39:05,176 --> 00:39:07,745 You're answer emails on weekends. 800 00:39:07,745 --> 00:39:09,447 You know, it's almost like you've got to be the one. 801 00:39:09,447 --> 00:39:12,850 Hey, let's not let you not be rewarded for emailing on weekends. 802 00:39:12,850 --> 00:39:14,485 You will not be looked at indifferently. 803 00:39:14,485 --> 00:39:17,988 Your performance is not measured by the hours you work or you know 804 00:39:18,389 --> 00:39:19,623 other things. Right. 805 00:39:19,623 --> 00:39:22,126 And honestly, is there a way to like evaluate 806 00:39:22,126 --> 00:39:24,962 your performance on how you're showing up as a whole person? Right. Right. 807 00:39:24,962 --> 00:39:27,064 Which is, again, another weird concept, but, 808 00:39:27,665 --> 00:39:32,103 you know, it's just like you've, I think as like a tip or like a thing 809 00:39:32,103 --> 00:39:34,605 that I'm thinking of is like, how can you as leaders 810 00:39:35,439 --> 00:39:39,310 implement things that people can see, feel, touch, that show that that 811 00:39:39,310 --> 00:39:43,114 demonstrate that it's not just lip service or even if you mean it sincerely, right. 812 00:39:43,114 --> 00:39:47,551 Like actions do speak louder than words and that's just kind of fun, 813 00:39:48,586 --> 00:39:49,253 you know, 814 00:39:49,253 --> 00:39:52,623 air quotes, you know, example of like a way to maybe do that. 815 00:39:52,890 --> 00:39:56,927 Yeah, there are so many tools right now that revolve around workplace 816 00:39:56,927 --> 00:39:57,828 mental health. 817 00:39:57,828 --> 00:40:00,131 Modern health is one of those tools. 818 00:40:00,131 --> 00:40:02,199 I've seen it a couple companies I've been at. 819 00:40:02,199 --> 00:40:05,736 The part that is different is it all requires to you 820 00:40:05,736 --> 00:40:08,839 know, it's getting to the earlier point is it takes you to to make that. 821 00:40:08,839 --> 00:40:10,474 Move you have to make that action. 822 00:40:10,474 --> 00:40:14,545 And it like I can see a company right now that's already established 823 00:40:14,578 --> 00:40:17,648 saying we require you to go to therapy now or once a month. 824 00:40:17,648 --> 00:40:19,884 Some people would probably quit. Oh yeah. Yeah. 825 00:40:19,917 --> 00:40:22,686 Oh yeah. And, and be untrusting of it. 826 00:40:22,987 --> 00:40:23,554 Yeah. Yeah. 827 00:40:23,554 --> 00:40:26,490 And, and who who's who's that therapist That your therapist to. 828 00:40:26,490 --> 00:40:28,893 Brainwash. Me. Yeah. Yeah. What are you trying to do now. 829 00:40:29,093 --> 00:40:31,095 There would be a lot of people. Absolutely. And. 830 00:40:31,829 --> 00:40:36,300 But I think like if you committed like if you were to say, our vision 831 00:40:36,300 --> 00:40:41,205 and our purpose is to build the best human centric company to do this, 832 00:40:42,807 --> 00:40:44,108 people would leave. 833 00:40:44,108 --> 00:40:46,277 Would be the first step of that culture change, Right? 834 00:40:46,277 --> 00:40:46,577 Yeah. 835 00:40:46,944 --> 00:40:50,548 Well, there's a there's a book that's about leadership management, 836 00:40:50,548 --> 00:40:54,285 and it says one of the biggest mistakes you can make in the business 837 00:40:54,285 --> 00:40:58,088 is not pruning your first line managers, which is saying, 838 00:40:58,088 --> 00:41:00,157 you know, we've given you an opportunity to manage people. 839 00:41:00,157 --> 00:41:03,527 You're not doing a good job, you're no longer allowed to manage people. 840 00:41:04,128 --> 00:41:06,864 But instead we pile more on these people. 841 00:41:06,864 --> 00:41:09,233 We try to make up for it other ways. 842 00:41:09,233 --> 00:41:11,569 Somebody above them leaves and then a year later 843 00:41:11,569 --> 00:41:13,571 they're actually in a director level position. 844 00:41:13,571 --> 00:41:14,472 You know. 845 00:41:15,272 --> 00:41:16,407 They waited it out. Right. 846 00:41:16,407 --> 00:41:22,246 And creating this great environment for burnout, just one person can do this. 847 00:41:22,246 --> 00:41:26,951 And in a probably a fairly large company, two can affect a large amount of people. 848 00:41:26,951 --> 00:41:29,186 So yeah, interesting thoughts. 849 00:41:29,353 --> 00:41:33,157 Yeah, I just a close up on that thought was 850 00:41:33,157 --> 00:41:36,994 you know it's reminds me of smokers and you know 851 00:41:38,162 --> 00:41:40,297 everyone knows all the dangers of smoking 852 00:41:40,297 --> 00:41:42,333 know there's still a lot of smokers out there for sure 853 00:41:42,333 --> 00:41:45,236 I keep saying this over and over again, but that's also where 854 00:41:45,236 --> 00:41:49,173 the employee or the other person has to take some responsibility. 855 00:41:49,206 --> 00:41:49,573 Yeah. 856 00:41:49,573 --> 00:41:53,477 And and no matter what you would, you're not going to get everyone to buy in. 857 00:41:53,911 --> 00:41:55,913 You know, not everything works for everyone. 858 00:41:56,413 --> 00:41:59,016 So it would never be a perfect system. 859 00:41:59,083 --> 00:41:59,550 Never. 860 00:41:59,550 --> 00:42:05,289 It's just a matter of giving somebody an additional tool to help 861 00:42:05,289 --> 00:42:09,660 get out of it and and prevent future burnout. 862 00:42:09,693 --> 00:42:10,494 Yeah. Yeah. 863 00:42:10,494 --> 00:42:13,931 You know, to turn that on you to just shy of mandating 864 00:42:14,765 --> 00:42:17,568 present an incentive that is too enticing to turn down. 865 00:42:17,601 --> 00:42:18,269 Right. 866 00:42:18,269 --> 00:42:21,238 And and you know, like I don't know if I've actually seen that 867 00:42:21,238 --> 00:42:24,608 so the best example I can think of is one of the 868 00:42:25,276 --> 00:42:29,313 like encounters I've had with many companies is they'll 869 00:42:29,346 --> 00:42:32,783 pay you a like 150 bucks or something if you get your annual physical, right. 870 00:42:32,983 --> 00:42:34,652 Just it's like a preventative measure. 871 00:42:34,652 --> 00:42:36,887 You get your blood drawn like you talk to a doctor. 872 00:42:37,154 --> 00:42:38,822 We don't need we don't need doing anything. 873 00:42:38,822 --> 00:42:40,824 We just want you to do it and show that you did it. 874 00:42:40,824 --> 00:42:44,228 And and then we will compensate you for That's beautiful. 875 00:42:44,395 --> 00:42:48,732 And so I think if you do the same thing and really match the incentives 876 00:42:48,732 --> 00:42:50,401 for employees. Right. 877 00:42:50,401 --> 00:42:54,538 And again if I'm putting this together as I'm talking out loud, but I'd be like, 878 00:42:55,272 --> 00:42:58,309 if you do it once a month, you get I will put an extra of like 879 00:42:58,375 --> 00:43:00,277 50 bucks in your like, 880 00:43:00,277 --> 00:43:03,147 you know, just every time you go to a session to some limit in a month, 881 00:43:03,147 --> 00:43:07,251 like we will pay you per session almost rate as a way to just like 882 00:43:07,651 --> 00:43:11,589 take that time unplug, talk to someone you know, piece it all together 883 00:43:11,889 --> 00:43:15,092 and we're going to be there on the outside of that to help you 884 00:43:15,092 --> 00:43:18,729 kind of manage or deal with whatever's happening as those sessions are happening. 885 00:43:18,729 --> 00:43:20,130 So that's what I think of. 886 00:43:20,130 --> 00:43:23,667 Yeah, I love the way you pulled that together because I was thinking earlier 887 00:43:23,968 --> 00:43:27,905 I didn't know how to express it, but alignment is an issue 888 00:43:28,472 --> 00:43:31,909 as a leader, I can expect you to go take time off. 889 00:43:31,909 --> 00:43:35,045 But then I also am driving you to to meet 890 00:43:35,045 --> 00:43:38,449 some sort of numbers or performance that you can't see. 891 00:43:38,449 --> 00:43:40,651 Don't let the date slip, Right? Yep. 892 00:43:40,651 --> 00:43:43,988 There's a complete misalignment of of expectations. 893 00:43:44,321 --> 00:43:45,923 And I think what you did 894 00:43:45,923 --> 00:43:49,093 is bring it back to incentives, which we talk about frequently. 895 00:43:49,526 --> 00:43:53,530 If you align those incentives with the culture, you want to have them. 896 00:43:53,864 --> 00:43:55,132 That's how you get it there. 897 00:43:55,132 --> 00:43:58,135 You're not going to tell your people that they have to go to therapy, 898 00:43:58,135 --> 00:43:59,403 but you're going to make it work. 899 00:43:59,403 --> 00:44:00,537 Well, I am, yeah. 900 00:44:00,537 --> 00:44:04,108 I'm going to make it so that it's hard for you to say no to that, right? 901 00:44:04,108 --> 00:44:05,342 Yeah, absolutely. 902 00:44:05,342 --> 00:44:07,044 Absolutely. Love that. 903 00:44:07,044 --> 00:44:08,679 Final thoughts for me. 904 00:44:08,679 --> 00:44:11,682 And I teased it at the beginning, so just a kind of full circle. 905 00:44:12,282 --> 00:44:17,421 I spent some time this week trying to explore benefits of burnout. 906 00:44:17,421 --> 00:44:20,290 I wanted to see it so I know it's so commonplace. 907 00:44:20,290 --> 00:44:22,126 It's something that we all deal with. 908 00:44:22,126 --> 00:44:25,562 Is there is there a reason beyond like that's just the systems 909 00:44:25,562 --> 00:44:28,832 we've built that have made that situation the way it is. 910 00:44:29,066 --> 00:44:33,037 Through the stuff that I've researched so far, I have not found anything 911 00:44:33,037 --> 00:44:36,573 that actually demonstrates or kind of makes an argument 912 00:44:36,573 --> 00:44:40,778 for burnout in terms of, Hey, it's good to put extra stress on you. 913 00:44:40,811 --> 00:44:42,980 You know, it's good to kind of push your boundaries. 914 00:44:43,180 --> 00:44:44,348 All those things are true, right? 915 00:44:44,348 --> 00:44:47,184 Kind of taking on responsibilities, getting out of your comfort zone 916 00:44:47,484 --> 00:44:50,888 are good and developmental and are things that each person 917 00:44:50,888 --> 00:44:53,924 should pursue to the point where it gets into the burnout. 918 00:44:54,158 --> 00:44:56,860 But, you know, the spiraling whole of, hey, 919 00:44:56,927 --> 00:45:01,165 I'm in this and I can't get out of it, hey, I wake up and my soul is crushed. 920 00:45:01,165 --> 00:45:02,299 The minute consciousness 921 00:45:02,299 --> 00:45:06,270 returns to me, you know, it's like there's no benefit to that. 922 00:45:06,270 --> 00:45:11,375 And in any situation or context that I could yet find, which isn't surprising. 923 00:45:11,375 --> 00:45:13,510 Right. I don't think that should be a surprising revelation. 924 00:45:13,510 --> 00:45:17,214 But just for for the listeners and for us, you know, and trying to lean 925 00:45:17,214 --> 00:45:21,118 into the challenging, ah, perspectives on some of these topics, 926 00:45:21,118 --> 00:45:25,022 that's where I went and I really just landed at, you know, burnout is something 927 00:45:25,022 --> 00:45:28,659 to be managed to minimize and to be eliminated where possible. 928 00:45:29,226 --> 00:45:31,762 We have enough context to know how bad it is. 929 00:45:32,796 --> 00:45:35,432 So I don't even want the feeling to be like, 930 00:45:35,432 --> 00:45:37,935 Oh, you have to experience the bad to know what the good is. 931 00:45:38,102 --> 00:45:40,704 I think we've got all the bad that we've we can do. 932 00:45:40,771 --> 00:45:42,039 We've got all that right. 933 00:45:42,039 --> 00:45:46,009 We have all the evidence and data we need to show that this is not something 934 00:45:46,009 --> 00:45:48,078 that's helpful or supportive or productive. 935 00:45:48,078 --> 00:45:52,416 And we've got to do better as a society and as especially as business community 936 00:45:52,716 --> 00:45:56,453 to to not let this be something that is just seen as the status quo 937 00:45:56,453 --> 00:45:57,421 and as a part of life. 938 00:45:57,421 --> 00:45:59,690 We've got to we've got to turn this around intentionally. 939 00:45:59,690 --> 00:46:03,260 So I think that burnout affects 940 00:46:03,260 --> 00:46:06,530 a lot more people that they would acknowledge, you know? 941 00:46:06,530 --> 00:46:06,730 Right. 942 00:46:06,730 --> 00:46:09,666 I mean, I don't think enough people acknowledge this. 943 00:46:10,100 --> 00:46:12,836 I think everyone has to, hopefully 944 00:46:12,836 --> 00:46:18,075 with the help of their employer and also friends and family 945 00:46:18,075 --> 00:46:21,645 and whatever else, you know, whatever else is out there, 946 00:46:22,312 --> 00:46:25,482 you've got to look at what some of the signs are. 947 00:46:26,049 --> 00:46:28,118 Look at, you know, some of the 948 00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:31,488 just nice, easy how do I get out of this? 949 00:46:31,488 --> 00:46:36,326 How do I deal with it and and acknowledge some of these things and instead of 950 00:46:36,326 --> 00:46:37,761 just being so, you know, 951 00:46:37,761 --> 00:46:41,265 motivated to to get to the next thing or get the next thing done 952 00:46:41,532 --> 00:46:45,769 to be a little bit more more present in and what's going on with yourself. 953 00:46:46,003 --> 00:46:46,370 Nice. 954 00:46:47,471 --> 00:46:47,938 I think we 955 00:46:47,938 --> 00:46:50,641 touched on a lot of this from a societal perspective, 956 00:46:51,108 --> 00:46:54,645 but we have to unwind a lot of what we've created. 957 00:46:56,647 --> 00:46:59,049 Business is personal. 958 00:46:59,049 --> 00:47:02,553 Working smarter, not harder is is not a thing anymore. 959 00:47:02,553 --> 00:47:03,120 Yeah. 960 00:47:04,054 --> 00:47:06,190 Well, refer to the air show. 961 00:47:06,190 --> 00:47:10,494 But we can we can argue that it's going to create a lot of stress. 962 00:47:10,494 --> 00:47:15,032 Do we have to at some point step back and realize and acknowledge 963 00:47:15,265 --> 00:47:17,835 that we are actively choosing profits over people 964 00:47:18,569 --> 00:47:22,005 and there has to be some sort of line drawn when that's not okay 965 00:47:22,039 --> 00:47:26,109 as a manager to it, I think I made a commitment already 966 00:47:26,243 --> 00:47:27,277 to challenging my team 967 00:47:27,277 --> 00:47:30,614 to get out of their chairs and just go think or walk or get away. 968 00:47:30,647 --> 00:47:35,252 I would also encourage anybody else to to model the behavior they want to see. 969 00:47:35,385 --> 00:47:36,687 I think that's super important. 970 00:47:36,687 --> 00:47:40,224 I would as a board member, honestly, I would probably check in 971 00:47:40,224 --> 00:47:44,928 with my leaders of my company and ask specifically what did you do today 972 00:47:45,896 --> 00:47:46,496 that that 973 00:47:46,496 --> 00:47:50,500 show showed a commitment to to this this new culture 974 00:47:50,500 --> 00:47:54,371 or thinking and try to create some sort of accountability loop. 975 00:47:54,371 --> 00:47:57,107 So 120,000 deaths. 976 00:47:57,441 --> 00:47:58,175 Chronic stress. 977 00:47:58,175 --> 00:47:59,476 Not okay. 978 00:47:59,476 --> 00:48:01,411 Not. Good. Yeah, that's not good at all. Good.