Kelsey Norman is a Fellow for the Middle East and Director of the Women's Rights, Human Rights, and Refugees Program at Rice University's Baker Institute for Public Policy. Her new book, Aiding Autocrats: Migration Management, Governance and Repression in Africa, examines how wealthy countries increasingly use foreign aid to persuade other governments to stop migrants before they reach Europe or the United States—and the unintended political consequences of those policies.

In this episode, Kelsey explains what she calls "migration management aid" and how it has shaped relationships with countries including Turkey, Libya, and Rwanda. We also discuss whether more recent policies, including the Trump administration's deportation agreements with countries such as Eswatini, fit into this broader pattern.

The conversation then turns to one of the book's central arguments: that outsourcing migration control can undermine democracy and good governance by strengthening authoritarian governments and giving them new resources and leverage. We conclude by discussing whether there is a better way for wealthy countries to cooperate with governments on migration without reinforcing repression or sacrificing human rights.