Hello and welcome to the APM podcaster.

My name is Professor Adam Bodison and I'm the chief Executive of APM and your host today.

We're delighted to welcome to the podcast Dhruv Patel.

Dhruv is an APM honorary fellow and chief executive and founder of the Nissai Group.

His company specialises in the delivery of online education services to learners around the world, particularly to what it calls non traditional students.

And we'll get into that.

I suspect in the conversation, Dhruv is going to share his experience of project delivery in the education sector, as well as the role of technology and hopefully a few leadership insights too.

So Dhruv, thanks very much for joining us.

And to kick off, perhaps let's talk a little bit about you.

Can you give us maybe a sense of your background and your career to date?

And maybe tell us why you decided to found Nissai Group?

OK.

Thank you Adam for inviting me to this broadcast.

So I in a very traditional way going to a traditional education, but then decided to not go in all of my parents footstep, my father's footstep in medicine, decided to be an accountant and a chartered accountant.

And after I got qualified, I decided I did enough of it and decided to go into business.

So decided into what I would call training adults in IT and stuff like that.

And then I found this software which allowed me to teach at a distance.

So we said, right, great.

And then fate, as they say, is an amazing thing.

I came across somebody in Birmingham and they wanted to teach children who couldn't go to school because at the hospital.

And we had the technology which allowed us to do this.

And when we got into that, I thought, wow, this is something.

But then the students couldn't get education.

So we said, right, let's set up an online school.

And this is going back to late 2001 in 2002 and that's when we started off.

So it's been working all this time to basically started off with children in medically I'll me and then we started off with children with learning disabilities, dis action and then carried on from there on.

So it is the way we teach, which is important.

It was how the teachers were trained to teach.

It was not just teaching online, it was engagement and making sure that but also the same time what I found was that children were not in the centre of learning, they were just a number.

And you know what technology allowed me to put to was to put the learners in the centre of learning and also to help personalise their learning because everybody learns differently and everybody needs a different way of learning.

So technology allowed me to do that.

So we couldn't find any technology, so I had to create and write the software with a team of my, my team in software and which still exists and we still have our team in Stockton which does all these things.

But it is a continuous improvement.

And as we learn more and more, we never stop learning about how and what will affect and how we have to do things.

But it, technology allowed me to do that and, and it was quite an amazing journey so far.

And I love what I do.

And then we decided that, hey, what we do here is working.

So why can't we make this affordable education everywhere across the world?

And so started out in Asia and the more I got involved in the Asia side, the more I saw they don't understand inclusion because, you know, it's, it's a stigma And how do we overcome that?

And how do we make this young people because they are able to do a lot of good things.

Why shouldn't we make them happen?

And also, why shouldn't the people in the rural areas and islands get the same level of education?

What stops it?

So this is what we did.

So I'm really enjoying it.

Yeah, well, it, it, it, you know, it's really inspirational and you know, I've had the pleasure of coming to see the centre in Stockton as well.

And, you know, you've got a whole range of different people up there.

You've got technologists, you've got teachers, you've got leaders, all kinds of people.

And obviously that's grown over time.

But it's one thing you have in a vision, Dhruv, of, you know, education, how you can change the world.

You've had to get all of these other people to come on board and probably do something that was never in their mind to start with.

You know, how did you, how did you get people to kind of lie into your vision and to kind of come on this journey with you?

It is, as you say, it's a challenge, but when you recruit the right kind of people, right?

And I've been very fortunate, been very, very fortunate in getting the right people on board and having a strong relationships.

But also I think what we are doing is people buying into it.

And even when you say to a software programmer saying, right, you know, you've got a choice.

You can do programming for the big boys or you can do something which can really make an impact and you can see the impact.

I think they will choose the latter because they want to make an impact.

They don't want to be just a number.

So, and I had this so many times with the My Software Choice guys in the sense that they used to say, right, OK, how got this new thing?

And I would say, so how is it going to affect my learner right now?

When I come up with a new thing, they turn around and say, so how is it going to affect our earners?

What a change that's progress, you know?

And that for me, he's saying, OK, I give up.

They know what they're doing now, you know.

Absolutely.

So we, we talked earlier on about the kind of some, some of the students you work with, you know, there might not be accessing school.

You talked about those who are in hospitals before.

So tell us a bit more about these non traditional students and who they are and and also what is it that that you're providing that traditional education either can't or or won't for whatever reason provide?

OK, So I think, I think the main thing is that we have lots of different learners, right, right from learners with autism at SD, behaviour issues, mental health.

We have also young people in just coming out of the secure states.

So we've got a whole sort of them, right.

The key element is that we don't judge them because on what what happens when in online, even though we don't usually have webcams as well.

So it's a level playing field.

Our teachers don't know which post code they come from.

Of course they know what their background is, but they don't judge.

That's the most important thing, right?

The second thing is we don't have a factory model.

It's a you we don't have by age group.

We have ability level.

We have only 15 in a class, which means we have the same ability, 15 in a class.

No judgement doesn't make any judge.

But it's about half hour sessions and able to get the pace right, putting the young people in the right groups and let them be nurtured.

We also have a very good team of student support officers in in Stockton as well as on the ground.

We have mentors who go into the houses and support them on face to face, but socially, emotionally as well.

So the idea is to give a whole wrap around service for our most vulnerable, but also create an environment where they can thrive.

So that's the most important thing.

Give them the environment and they can engage and then we can take them on our journey.

It's and it's a journey which matters.

If you get the right journey, they'll get their end game.

If you don't put them on the right journey, they will never get there.

So it's very much a, a holistic kind of service that you that, that you're offering there now.

And now I know as well as Nisi group or as part of Nisi group, there's also the Nisi Education Trust, which is kind of AIII hope I described this in the right way, the charitable arm of Nisi.

Can you tell us a bit about what NET is and what it does, what its priorities are?

Right.

So the Nisi Education Trust was created by my wife and I to make sure what we are doing can be amplified, you know, in terms of making.

And again, it's the objective of that is to give people.

An.

Ability to see what can be done right and also to disseminate, disseminate information and values of learning online.

But more importantly, that there is a light at the end of the tunnel for some of the young parents and parents who are in this situation, not only in the UK, but around the world.

And we have done some amazing webinars and success seminars, live hybrid events and for example in last November, December, we did an event in Brunei which was all about inclusivity in education but inclusivity in workplace.

So neurodiversity is to make people aware that this is there and that we have to have an inclusive world, right?

And make sure that whatever we are doing, and we have now got this UKTRI grant to allow us to have a a person in Stockton to be a research doctor person to research all the outcomes which you have, how they can impact, what is the impact value of it.

And that is also supported by Staffordshire University.

So having those kind of stuff with us, we can hopefully use it to reform education not only in the UK but elsewhere, make it much more informative about how we can in make impact to those young kind of learners, not sideline them, but bring them into the mainstream.

Because if you've got 20 to 25% of your class in this group, that's a major group.

And then you got on top of that the COVID and mental health, we're coming to 30% of the class.

That's a hell of a human resources which are not being deployed effectively.

Yeah, wow.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And and so, Drew, there will be people who are, who are watching or listening to to this conversation who might want to find out more about the work that Nisai's doing, either the education side or the charitable side.

Is there a website they can go to to find out more?

Sure, it says www.threews.nisai.com.

That's it.

Simple Nisa i.com.

OK, well, we'll, we'll let people have a look at that.

It's funny, the www.wheneveridowebsites.

And I would say that my children say, Dad, you don't have to say www.anymore only, only, only old people say that, they say.

And I'm like, oh, I didn't know I was in the old category now, but.

Hey, join the club.

Yeah, I think you and me both OK, Well, so, so, so, so we'll talk a bit about this.

Let's talk a bit about project management now.

How would you say project management has played a part in your career, for example in developing your business or or enabling the kind of delivery of some of the services to your learners?

Has project management kind of been a part of that and can you tell us a bit about that if it has?

In a way, yes, very strongly.

And this is what I like about when you formalise the project management.

We've been using project management in an informal way, right, because we've got lots of tasks, a lot of things, but the things we forget that sometimes, you know, if you have a really good structured way.

And we were with Fortunate because I was with Fortunate, I was able to utilise the project management tools within the technology side because we had to have that for our software delivery and we use it and the teams use it more often.

But a knife see that the project delivery, project management delivery should be in every session, everywhere where you got cross teams working because you are a team, right?

And for me, it's every, you know, you've got to make sure the baton passing is correct within the teams.

And if you're doing a complex work like we do in our children learning, right, because now we're only just teaching, we're also supporting them.

We're doing things, you know, and everything has to meet and on time.

So it is something which is needs to be done right.

And I think one of the things which I've been doing recently is asking people, OK, don't I think project management is a big, but make it as part of your routine.

Don't think of it as a separate, separate.

Just make it as part of your daily work routine and see how you can bring it to compare, right?

Because I think we tend to again, put it in a box.

I'll do a project management, right?

No, it's you're doing it all the time.

Yeah, it's really interesting.

So, so it sounds like tell, tell me if I'm misinterpreting what you're saying here.

It sounds like you're saying, look, we we're using project management in two ways here.

Partly it's about delivering change and and so on as a business.

But actually we're also kind of taking a more kind of projectified approach to our day-to-day work as well.

And and you found that that helps with managing the kind of interdependencies and the complexities of of the nature of the work that you do.

Is that is that fair?

Yes, it is.

And also you know, we aren't working in 12 different countries and lots of time ones, right.

So that's a challenge on his end.

And and one of the things again, I've got a lot of my managers who are task orientated and they have their checklist and I said great, now start putting that together and see how where are the problems are.

So it is, it is getting that, how do I say it's trying to build that into the whole value chain, into the business.

Yeah, that makes sense.

We, we, we have a bit of a mantra here at APM and you may well have heard me say this before.

True, I'm sure you have, which is that when projects succeed, society benefits.

So we have this kind of linking together of the project profession and kind of societal impact.

And I'm really interested to to kind of get your sense of the the potential that projects have to change the world.

For example, I think about something like the UNSDGS, the sustainable development Goals.

You and I have had many conversations about them in the past.

What's your sense of, of this capability, a capacity of projects to change the world?

Well, let me just give.

You an example potentially.

So we have we should be getting a project in Thailand, right?

We're dealing with schools and for learning with children out in the rheumatory areas and stuff.

But that would involve us to put together a teaching centre in one of the regions in Thailand and train them up and bullshit.

So for that I've created a project management office in in Bangkok, right And it's I've got a good project manager.

He used to, he worked on the building of the second terminal, Suvanaguhumi Airport.

But to deliver, you know, the, the pilot and then deliver that right across the island, right, Train the teachers, recruit staff, get the space, all the equipment, got everything.

Make sure everything is working, make sure that technology is working.

Hey, it's got to be something.

But by the time we have delivered that we'll make a big impact, right, for those young people in the rural areas who would not get education because we would have something, a centralised teaching centre doing English and Thai curriculum, right?

But that's where he starts making big impact.

And I've just got another one.

I hope they've agreed in principle in, in Malaysia, right, a similar 1.

So you could see how and then you bring in rolling the and and this is part of the nobody left behind a gender on the SDG as well, right?

And you if you get the education right, you get the poverty, you get the health, you get all those things, right.

It's all the 17 sustainable development goals are all connected.

It's education, as they say, you know, it's education stupid.

You know, that's what is acquired, you know, and, and that's what I see how this thing makes it happen, you know?

Yeah.

So it's interesting to I, I probably in my kind of career which as, as you know also with an education background, I've been into hundreds, probably thousands of schools and trusts and so on.

And, and I was thinking before our conversation today, I can only think of two out of all of those that where they had, you know, actually employed a project professional within the school or within the trust.

Why?

Why don't you think, you know, that schools and, and trust see the value of, of, of, of that kind of professional?

Is it, is it a money thing or is it, I don't know what, what do you think?

I think I.

Think it's a legacy and this is my beef with education right now.

We're still in that manufacturing age, right?

So we are manufacturing people boom, boom, boom, boom.

But now we're in a digital age.

We're in a different age, right?

Our children need to work flexible, but we're still getting them in that silo.

So when our kids come out of school, they don't have a clue about, but they're playing on games and playing on games on that, which are very much critical thinking, critical resources.

And you know, that's project management, but nobody in the school understands that, right?

Whereas we need our future employees to be much more flexible working right and understand how everything fits together and what project management.

And This is why you and I know that we should be bringing kind of project management into schools, right, right.

As a, as a way to say, hey guys, this is the way you will be working and this is how it's interconnected.

The world's going to be whether you have this current wave of me alone society, right?

You still will be included, right?

It's got to be in connected world.

Yeah.

And it needs to be brought that across.

And This is why I just do not understand why the schools don't have it.

I think it's just the way the education is right now.

It's so manufacturing based.

It's interesting, isn't it?

Just as you were talking and I was thinking that, you know, if you think about people's personal lives, if you think about business, if you think about almost every other sector, you know, healthcare, you know, things have changed dramatically over the past 100 years.

If I look at education 100 years ago to now, it hasn't changed as much as IT as other sectors.

You know, it's still quite traditional in that sense.

Yeah, we're still.

In the industrial revolution mode, you know.

We.

Are you just think about it?

Yeah.

Well, OK.

So you talk about the kind of the technological era or the digital era, I think was the word that you used.

One of the challenges I certainly find is that trying to kind of stay ahead of the the, the rapid advances in technology, especially if you're in business in a technology business like you are, that's really hard to do and probably get harder the the kind of deeper you go.

How?

How do you stay ahead of all the change that's happening in the technology space?

You know, the famous Moore's law that it will compound every year, right?

I think you've got to take a step back from that in my opinion, because I, I was a bit, a friend of mine who really ran, ran at tech company.

And you know, do you remember the old days?

We had National Grid here and we had all those plethora of learning management systems and everybody had a learning management system in the schools, right?

How many of those providers exist very small because they could not keep up?

And the price of technology and thing goes down and down and down, right?

And the cost of creating goes more.

And everybody comes up with new thing.

And there's another new thing.

And it, it, it's a constant battle.

But also our human brains are not capable of growing that fast, right?

And having technology.

So for example, I've still, I've got the Samsung 24.

I don't know how to use it.

I just know how to make a call on it, right?

My brain doesn't compute.

So I feel that we need to have the human side as a blend on it, right?

And, and then I think that you need to let the, the technology and the, the, the, the human side work together, right?

Rather let technology run away.

And this is what we're doing in our side.

You know, we're not running away with any new things coming up and saying, right, let's go, go, go.

Think.

Even with the AI, what, what can, how can we use AI, right?

We're not going to use it for teaching, but let's see you how can we use it for data collection?

Let's see how we can use it for analysis.

Let's see what we can do it for other things, right?

OK, but let's us be in the control, not the technology.

Human should be in control and that's my mantra.

That makes sense.

And just for balance, I should say I've got an Apple, not a Samsung as well.

There you are, but.

You know better than I do I can't use it well, I.

I'm sure there'll be a debate about whether or not I can use mine as well.

So you talked a bit about AI there and, you know, that's something that as a kind of leader of an organisation, you know, I spend quite a bit of time thinking about at the moment.

You know, you know, the big question to AI or not to AI and if you do, in what areas what you, you kind of talked about AI there as as an opportunity, I think.

Are there any kind of threats do you think from from AI?

Should we be worried about this in education?

We can use, we're going to be using data AI for our data analysis and also allowing our teachers to have to interpret that OK and help them with that.

So we don't, we, we are looking at how teachers, students before they fail, we are there to get pick them up.

Where I get worried is when we are using AI for everything, right?

AI is very good at looking at in in health situations, looking at a whole lot of data and coming out with simple thing, right?

That's really good.

But in the East, there is a big push for, oh, AI will do this, AI will do that.

Don't worry about it.

We'll have people, AI can take care of this particular job, right?

And then I sit back and I think, right, OK, has anybody in technology teams sat down and thought, what the hell are we going to do with these people who are going to be replaced?

Right.

In the West, we are OK.

We've got a lot of greater good social services and safety net in developing countries.

We don't have that.

There'll be a lot of people who will be made redundant.

They won't have any jobs.

They won't have any way to put their foods on.

But yes, there'll be other jobs there.

But when you have moved a lot of people out of the rural areas into urban areas for industrialization, they're really going to go back to their homes.

So you're talking about the fact that the, the, the impact of AI will be felt differently by different parts of the world.

That's a really, really interesting view.

Let's talk about leadership.

I was hoping we get a few kind of leadership gems and insights from you.

What would you say, Dhruv, are the attributes of a really great leader?

For me, I, I, I think that picking a good team is really important and then let it get on with it.

And I think it's for me, I've had lots of discussions or robust discussions with my team and they really put me down when they need to put me down.

But that's great because that's what, listen, I don't have the monopoly on ideas.

And my role now is to facilitate people right, to come up and then make it happen.

Because what, what you do need is giving that empowerment, but also have them coaching and having the, because I, my job has changed dramatically over the last 3-4 years.

You know, where I used to be the centre of the universe, now I'm one of the, you know, I'm out, right?

But the centre of the universe is a team.

So it's how you actually work with the team.

Yes, you, you know, there are days when I'm feeling what the hell is this all about, right?

But then something happens and I'm back up again.

You know it.

It is about understanding and also leading from the front to a certain extent, right?

But giving the young people and the people around you the ability to be best for themselves and they will be best for you.

Empowering other people, empowering other people, it's come across very, very clearly.

So I think we're almost, almost at the end.

But I just one final question for you, Dhruv.

And in fact, before I get into the question, let me congratulate you on your EPM honorary fellowship that you received earlier this year.

And my final question kind of relates to that is I wanted to ask when you found out that you were going to have this honour, what was what was your reaction and where were you at the time?

Well.

I was, where was, I was in Stockton when I got it and I thought, right, I think somebody's pulling my chain, right.

I, I don't, I never have had any awards like this.

And I thought, wow.

And then, you know, really, you know, it was the real moment.

Is that really true?

Right.

And that was great.

And it was fantastic to be recognised by you guys, you know, I mean, that's awesome.

So I was really happy about that, you know?

Fantastic.

Well, we're, we're we're blessed to have you.

And you know, I'm, I'm sure lots of people listening to this will will want to reach out and find out more about it.

So thanks very much, Drew for joining us and to everybody who's listening or watching as well.

We'll be back in a couple of weeks, but in the meantime, if you've got any comments or feedback, you can always e-mail us at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk.

Or if you're a Spotify, you can leave a comment directly in the app.

So that's it for this episode.

I'll see you next time.

Thank you, Drew.

Thanks.

Adam, thank you very much and thanks for having me.