Welcome to the APM podcast.

APM is the childhood body for the project profession.

My name is Emma DaVita and I'm the editor of Project APM's Cause V Journal and your host.

In this podcast we're going to find out all about project controls.

I'm asking Paul Kidston and Carolyn Browning everything there is to know about this essential part of project management and who better to ask?

Paul, an engineer, is a former director of Project Controls working on projects such as the Remodels, Smithfield's meat market in London.

Carolyn is the Transformation programme manager at online business Flutter Entertainment.

Both are co-authors, along with others of the new APM book Project Controls in the 21st Century, available through the APM website.

Listen on to find out how a project controller should actually be called the Truth Tellers, and how you need to have both an eye for the technical details of a project, but also be able to step back and join the strategic dots.

But what really, really matters is the ability to be adept at the people side of things like communicating well, problem solving, and being a leader who creates the best kind of project culture.

They give valuable lessons for all.

So let's dive straight in.

Welcome both of you to the APM Podcast.

Thank you so much for sparing the time to talk to us today.

Why don't we start at the beginning?

Let's get back to the fundamentals and ask what is project controls and how does it differ from project management?

It depends.

People have such different views about what project management is and and then it is genuinely different in different organisations.

So it'll depend where you are.

Some, some will see the skill sets as being separate, but I think our philosophy is, is around the fact that they're really the same thing.

I mean, I, I, I think they're the same thing.

Many of the skill sets that are required for project controls are the same as project management.

And that's not to say they're uniform.

There are things that come outside of each discipline.

If there's a way of characterising it, I'd say that project controls tend to be more tactical.

It tends to be about what, what should be happening in the future, what has happened, what trends, what performance, you know, that kind of thing.

And about making suggestions that project managers then have to go and do something about.

I mean, if you, if you drew a Venn diagram of project management and project controls, my view is that they'd be very largely overlapping.

It there'd be, you know, very much the the overlap and and and little bits around the outside where the the nuanced skills lay.

What would lie on the outside of those circles?

Very little.

I think the only thing would be particular technical skills, you know, how a tool set in particular works would be something that an expert project controller would know and would manage.

But in terms of what goes into that tool, you know, and, and this could be, I don't know, a piece of software that dealt with risk or planning or estimating, whatever it would be in terms of the, the, the important information that goes in and the information that comes out, It's very much of interest to to all parties.

So I suppose it's that technical skill rather than anything that you could say is a finite discipline.

One example perhaps is something that you might consider sits in project management and not in project controls might be the management of health and safety.

But I would argue that's not the case because one thing, that's the moral responsibility that everybody would have to be concerned about health and safety.

Secondly, there's things around how you plan things so that work is enacted in a Safeway.

So there's there's, there's really nothing.

And this is what I would try to, to encourage any project control to think about.

There's nothing that's not of interest to you in a project.

You have to be interested in anything because you have to understand the whole context.

OK, Karen, is there anything you'd like to add to that?

Yeah.

So just kind of building from what Paul said, the way that I kind of see the difference between project controls and project management is, yes, the skills are common, but it's how they are then applied.

So for example, project management is very strategic and more directional, whereas the I always describe kind of project controls as the data engine of the project.

It's where you get all the information.

And especially in times where we've got evolving and exponentially increasing kind of data sources and data sets, really it's the project controls professionals within the project that really focus in on how to get the best use of that data and help and aid the project in terms of like making those right decisions.

So it very much is how the how the skill sets are kind of used, but they're very much overlapped from my perspective.

You've obviously both been very successful within Project controls.

Could you give our listeners an idea of your kind of career trajectory and what have been the biggest lessons you've learned around project controls?

When I first answered this question it was the first half of my career was in engineering and project management roles.

I suspect now I've reached the other end of my career.

It was only the first third, but I was a a engineer and a manager of of sections of work, eventually becoming a project manager.

The actual reason I moved into project control was to get on the get on to an interesting project, a particular particular project that I was interested in at the time.

It was the refurbishment of Smithfield Meat Market or the the second part of actually very interesting project and one of those teams that are one of the best teams I ever worked with.

Funny enough, it wasn't, it wasn't a big project in in terms of major infrastructure projects in this country, etcetera.

But it but it was a great project to be on because the team gelled in a very interesting way.

And we might, we might touch on teamwork later on, but we were a team that became greater than the sum of our parts because I suppose, you know, we had individual weaknesses.

One of my weaknesses at the time was not knowing what project controls were and planning were.

But to have that particular responsibility was a bit of a challenge.

But I think out of that came a lot of learning.

One was there is a way into project controls from project management, particularly in my industry, I think because of the high regard that having the technical knowledge, the engineering knowledge most important.

And that's not necessarily true in other industries, but it very much is in the construction industry.

I, I suppose the second thing that I would say is it wasn't long before I was being called an expert or even even a guru.

And I used to really shy away from these terms because all I've done is, you know, I mean, at the time there was a little bit of information on the Internet and there was a, a couple of pages in a book about some of this kind of stuff.

It was hard to get hold of information.

And so by reading 2 pages in a textbook and two web pages or whatever it was, suddenly you're a guru.

And it's ridiculous.

And I, but I think the point is, if you, for people interested in project controls, if you're really, I mean, don't get me wrong, you can go into project controls, you can go back into project management.

You can use project controls as a route into project management.

You can use it as a route into other areas in the business because you learn.

So you get so many sort of key skills in, in the field of project controls.

They, they, they are useful elsewhere.

But if you wanted to be that expert project controller, then the key is to be interested, to explore things and and be critical as well.

Mind you, you don't have to believe that all the, you know, shiny new toys that people want to sell you are, are worthwhile or are right for your situation.

Might be a, a better way of putting that.

But it's, it's to be interested and it's to have that I, I don't like the word their passion very much because it seems that everybody is passionate about everything.

But it is having that passion for, for the subject matter.

And I think you can go a long way with that, particularly in a subject that some, some people for some reason that I can't fathom, think is a bit of a dry subject.

But there we go.

Carolyn, how what's been your career trajectory and what would you say of the biggest lesson or lessons that you've picked up around project controls?

My approach was completely different and so my career pathway has been completely different to Paul's, which I think is testament to how broad kind of project controls can be.

I fell into it after university.

I didn't know what I wanted to do as a job and didn't really understand what project controls was.

I didn't even realise that it existed.

And I joined a fence company in their project management graduate scheme.

And at that time I only knew about project management.

And essentially as you do on kind of graduate schemes, you rotate around the various different areas.

And I met a really, really inspirational project controls professional at that time and he kind of opened my eyes into this kind of world that I found really fascinating in terms of understanding loads of complex things and making it simple for people to understand and like problem solving.

And that bit was really, really interesting to me.

And throughout my career, I've kind of drifted in and out of industries.

I've worked in defence, I've worked in rail, I've worked in infrastructure, I've worked in in all sorts of different types of projects and programmes.

I've done transformational change.

But ultimately the bit that I keep always coming back to, which is central for me for project controls professionals, is that, that passion for problem solving and that ability to kind of really understand quite a lot of detailed and complex data, but then work with people similar to Paul, that teamwork and that, that working with people and communicating and collaborating with loads of different people to get a good result in the end.

And it it, it's very similar to project management, but I enjoyed the data analysis side of it very much so And that was much more suited in the project controls kind of domain that equally.

Yeah, it kind of goes hand in hand.

It sounds so you you need to have the broader perspective, but also be able to drill down into the technical detail for project controls.

That's that's a really interesting mix because normally people focus on one or the other.

But would you agree with that?

Yeah, definitely.

I think I always kind of define it as you need to be able to kind of switch between a helicopter vision to see what the project manager is seeing in terms of the strategy, the vision, the mission, the outcomes, the benefits that you're trying to achieve.

But then also be able to guide the team in that really, really detailed kind of micro level work.

And it, it does take much more work around learning the tools and the techniques.

But for me, the power in it is how it's communicated and how you collaborate with others in order to be able to make that, make that jump from lower level detail into kind of higher level detail easy for people.

Because it's not always easy to understand, especially quick moving and quite complex interconnected project, it's very difficult for people to make that leap.

So for me, a project, a good project controls person can help people make that leap between the detail and the high level and kind of go up and down the different levels.

Have you, have you had a favourite project you've worked on?

And I'm going to ask you what events were did you first work on that you were doing as a project controller?

So my first, my first ever project was working on a training system for submarines.

So it was kind of like a training simulator.

And that was absolutely fascinating.

It was one of the first projects that I ever worked on that I kind of cut my teeth on, so to speak, as like a role that was important.

I was assistant project manager on the Aircraft Carrier Alliance and that always is spawned in my heart as like a programme that I really, really enjoyed working on.

There was a really, really good collaborative kind of cross cross alliancing team with loads of different people from loads of different organisations.

I was learning tonnes really, really early in my career.

Felt like I was completely out of my depth and learning every day.

And that's probably one of the favourite, favourite projects that I always look back fondly on.

Oh.

That's pretty what I mean.

This lead to me to ask you.

I mean, why does project controls matter more now than ever?

I mean, you've already explained to me an idea of how you're able to going to highly complex, sophisticated programmes and projects and try and simplify it.

And I'd imagine part of that is to make sure that everyone's working to a kind of common purpose and vision and understand how everyone fits in.

But I don't know who wants to go first.

Quite a big question, But you know, why does project controls matter more now than ever?

Why do they matter now more now?

I don't know.

If they do matter now more, I think they've always mattered.

I suppose the thing though, is it's about the future.

I mean, if we've if we've run projects not as well as we could have done in the past, that's the past.

And we always need to get better at what we do.

So that's that, that that's that's why it matters now to just improve, to continuously improve.

You know, we might, we might start from a position that we're actually pretty good at, at this stuff doesn't matter.

We've got to be better tomorrow.

And I think the economic situation that, that we find ourselves in this country, perhaps the even the world situation that we find ourselves in means that there's limited resources, money's got to be spent wisely.

We've got to behave professionally.

And, and these are all things that project controls helps you do.

I mean, you need the, you need the projects and changing times that we live in require projects perhaps even more than ever.

And therefore you need good project controls.

The two things, as I said, are not dissimilar and, and, and you need both to go hand in hand.

And the pace of change, it's the pace of change that means that projects have to be more flexible and more agile.

And there there is a technique called agile, which I don't, I don't mean here, I mean just genuinely agile.

We have to be able to react to change, to change things.

And in traditional project management, that's change can be a really big factor in project failure.

So we must be better at it.

We must be professional about how we deal with it.

We must be rigorous about how we deal with it and we must be disciplined about how we deal with it.

So I, I think that's why you know, those elements of controls.

And as, as, as part of getting that control, you need to set things up such that you are as flexible as possible so that you can react to, to change in the world in the environment as quickly as possible.

So you know, that's why it's you know it as important now stroke even more important now than than than than in the past.

So actually the the greater the discipline and the focus and the control, the you're actually giving a project the ability to be more flexible, adaptable and and agile to what's going on.

Yes, I mean, that's exactly how things have to be designed.

It's very easy to set down rules that say that thou shalt not change anything, for example.

I mean, that'd be great if you could do it and it would make life easier and it would make, well, it maybe it'd make some people's jobs superfluous.

But it, it, it, it's, it's not the reality of where we are.

You know, we get a, as we've seen in recent weeks, even recent days, the world we live in is can change on a, on a pin in, in an instant.

It's absolutely vital that we're able to pivot and change and that we're able to make the right decision about things as well.

And where I would say project controls helps with the right decision is it's in several areas.

It's in what should we do to correct things that are going wrong, etcetera, etcetera.

It's actually also more fundamental than that sometimes to say, should we carry on doing the things that we're doing or do we need to, you know, go back to the drawing board, as it were, and do something different.

So I, I think, I think just the world situation being in such flux at the moment is, you know, does make projects more important and makes how projects control themselves much more important.

Carolyn, what do you think?

So I think certainly everything that Paul has said, but also I, I see that this is a level of flexibility in the the ever changing landscape that we have.

I see project controls as providing solid frameworks.

There are more guardrails rather than mandates because you need that level of flexibility, you need that level of agility.

And especially in what much more kind of media focused times where there's a lot of social focus on what's the what a lot of spend is been spent on and what the benefits, what social benefits, what the outcomes are.

There are often different ways of measuring project success and project controls provides that data and that insight and that ability to measure projects in different ways.

And ultimately it's that it's that rich, that rich data provided in a flexible framework that really the project controls profession can really help with, especially in this landscape where we have more interconnections, more complex kind of working landscapes and systems.

This is how ultimately the project controls profession can help.

Does project controls touch on that area of those broader, almost intangible benefits that are delivered about how people feel about projects afterwards?

Is does it cover that area?

Is it very much just about the data and specific ways of measuring?

Established ways of measuring success?

Well, certainly kind of my perception on this is that good, good project control should be right away through the life of any project or programme, however large or complex.

So right away from the kind of business case when you're thinking around the the outcomes and the benefits, ultimately project controls has a a role to play in that initial kind of ideation going through into the quantification of the benefits and then the tracking of those.

And it's very easy to always think that benefits equals found notes or dollars or some tangible value.

And ultimately it's also those different as you say that that different quantitative and qualitative measures of success on a project and a programme.

And certainly it's, it's always easier to focus on the the kind of tangible bits, the bits that you can grab hold of and touch and feel.

But certainly there is emerging kind of trends and practises around those more qualitative measures and how that can be cracked and monitored not just throughout the life of a project and programme, but then take Crossroads for example, onwards when it actually gets into kind of public use.

And I think that's where there a heavy crossover between the kind of role of the projects team whilst that project is in in flight and then what happens post that and how those benefits then landed and realise.

We're APM, the only chartered membership organisation for the project profession.

When you become an APM member, you'll receive the resources and support you need to make an impact, delivering better projects with better outcomes.

Plus, you'll access exclusive training and benefits to support your ongoing career development.

Find out how we can help you reach your potential by visiting apm.org.uk.

Because when projects succeed, society benefits.

Are there any high profile projects that could have been more successful if better project controls had been implemented?

Or can you think or have you covered in?

You know any successful case studies where project controls is really fundamental to the success of that project?

If any examples either of you would like to give on either of those two sides.

I think specific examples are really, really hard, but if you have a look at the NAO website for example, there's lots and lots of published data around kind of lessons learned and best practise and things like that.

So sorry NAO, the National Audit Office.

National Audit Office, yes.

So if we go back to if we go back to kind of what we were saying around successes, success depends on the perception and the state who, who is the stakeholder who that's perceiving whether the project is successful or not.

Is it the end user?

Is it the the person that's having to pay for it?

Is it like there's different gauges on what success looks like?

But ultimately I think that broadly there is a, there is a direct correlation and perhaps Paul, you can talk about some of your experiences in this, there is a direct correlation between when there is good and effective project controls with with success.

Paul, do you want to kind of go a bit further on that?

I I, I did an exercise for the company I was working.

I mean, I'm like Caroline.

I'm going to be a bit coy about mentioning natural projects or companies names for reasons I'm not sure that the, the listeners will appreciate.

But I, I did an exercise comparing project controls maturity.

You know, we, we measured it as part of an improvement programme.

So we had a whole series of good through to through to poor in terms of adoption of good project control practises.

So we measured that and I did this exercise where I compared it with profitability.

And there's a very strong relationship between good project controls and profitability.

It's, it's, it's, it's not, you know, it's not, you're 100% guaranteed to be profitable if you're doing good project controls, but it's a very strong marker that that that leads towards good project performance.

I guess there are probably other things you could compare and say, yes, you know, projects that are well run in one way tend to perform better, but it was a, you know, the particular exercises it has to say it was based on.

I, I can't remember somewhere between 30 and 50 projects that were running at the time.

And and and there's it was a very strong correlation between the two.

Certainly from my broad experience, if I can kind of summarise it into kind of three fundamental things that make the difference.

It's not necessarily the detailed project controls techniques, for example, if you do or do not have like really detailed and intricate plans, it's not necessarily the methodologies that makes the difference.

It's making sure that the ultimately data is connected, that it's well communicated and that you have the right behaviours and culture within the project that enables that success.

So making sure that there's that, that right leadership.

And if there's one thing that flows through all of the experiences that I've had today whereby there are projects that were more successful than others through the use of project controls, it always comes down to those 3 fundamental things.

If they're not in place, then ultimately you could have the, you could have the best techniques and tool sets and methodologies from a technical perspective in the world.

But ultimately if you can't communicate effectively to all of your various stakeholders, if it's not all connected so it's not telling a common joined up story, and then you don't have the right pulpit and behaviours in place, then ultimately even the best project controls can fail.

So I think that's probably my take away in terms of when I have seen it been super successful.

It's those 3 fundamentals that that make the difference.

Yeah, I think that's a really important, important point about tools and techniques.

The most important thing is that and, and the reason, the reason why some tools are better than others, I suppose, is because of what they make you do.

And if they make you talk to each other and if they make you try and solve problems, then they're doing their job.

And that's, I think that's a really important thing to.

And I think, you know, it's a lesson I could have done with learning a lot earlier than I did, even when I was in project controls.

The important thing is not, you know, counting the widgets and making a trend graph.

The important thing is explaining to somebody what that trend graph means, what's going to happen if you don't change things and what you can do to change things to make things better or to exploit opportunities if you're in the fortunate position of, you know, being in a good place.

So I think I think it's really important.

It's not so much about the tools, it's about how you use them to aid communication.

And communication is is is key to what we do.

So when there's poor project controls, it's when one of these, one of these three things missing.

But but I mean, I did have a question around where did, where does project controls need to improve right now?

So I've been noticing how often you've been talking about your communication leadership.

So it's the kind of people's side of things.

And I wondered is that where there needs to be some improvement or you know you talked earlier, Paul about continuous improvement and so is that one area that you is that one area, both of you Phil is so more could be done, more could be learnt?

I think, yeah, I think that's kind of the philosophy behind what we've done with this book is, is, yeah, the technical skills, sometimes they're done pretty well and they're absolutely essential.

I mean, you can't, you can't be in project controls if you can't, if you can't do the fundamentals right.

But I think in order to, you know, to build on the theme of of continuous improvement, it is those other things.

And it's not just communication.

I think it's leadership as well is another, is another fundamental, you know, we need, we need to consider ourselves to be the leaders of the project now.

And I know when it's in, in most situations, it's likely to be a project manager.

But we need to take responsibility in project controls for making sure that the project is LED well and has the right information, has the right insight, and it's done well.

So communication, leadership, you have those problem solving skills, facilitation of other people, you know, getting people to talk.

All of those things are the vital skills that we need to think about to elevate project controls, to make it into, you know, the friend of the project manager rather than somebody just pointing at a trend and saying, Oh dear, I predict dot dot dot.

What you just said, it all sounds, you make it sound very easy, but I imagine in practise it's not that easy.

What just to pin you down a bit more about leadership, What makes for a good leader?

What have you noticed on on the front line of projects?

What makes for a good leader and what makes for a good team?

There's probably 2 fundamental things to do with projects.

11 is does the project have a purpose that people believe in?

But the second thing and, and, and, and relevant to your particular, your particular question now is, is the culture right in project controls?

You know, you can glibly say, well, we're about telling the truth.

Do you actually operate in a culture where you can tell the truth?

Is it even the right thing to do sometimes?

Maybe, you know, there's politics and nuance and all these things that you have to consider.

So it's, it's not as black and white as, as, as perhaps we've been implying, but it does mean the culture that you operate by the ethics with which you are prepared to operating yourself or perhaps another side to it.

I think probably the, the only answer to that is that when we talk about, when we talk about leadership in particular, I think there's often an unconscious bias to always assume that it means the senior leaders within a, in a project or a programme.

And when I think about leadership, I think about how can, how can we set up a culture and set up an environment where every single person, irrelevant of whether they are The Apprentice that's just joined the, the assistant planner, the the risk manager, the project manager, the the director, they all have a role to play in leadership and they can all lead in their sphere of influence and their sphere of control.

And ultimately, when I think about how to set up high performing teams, and I don't think this is unique to project controls.

I think this is across the entirety of the project professions.

How do we come together as a group and really empower each other to lead in our own areas?

And I think you need to have, you need to have the trust, you need to have the respect, you need to have the underlying culture of being able to have those creative problem solving conversations with each other and recognise each of the strengths and weaknesses.

And then also have that kind of group critical thinking skills to really make sure that you're making the best, the best decision with all of the information available so that collectively you can move forward in a positive direction.

And for me, that is the fundamental difference between A-Team of people that are operating and versus A-Team of people that are a effective high performing team.

It's that sense of trust, that sense of collective direction and ownership really.

And I think we all have a role to play in setting that culture and empowering everybody within our teams to really lead by example and lean into that.

That sounds like a wonderful world to live in.

Is that the reality, or do people still play the blame game, you know, Or do you feel as though things are looking pretty good now when it comes to the culture of projects broadly?

I think it's always going to be a challenge because there's always going to be, there's always going to be politics, there's always going to be budgetary constraints and fractural constraints.

And let's face it, we are all only human.

We can only do the best of with what we what we can, what we can deal with.

So I think will we ever get to that kind of panacea state where actually we can kind of achieve that end goal where everybody's empowered?

No, we can't.

It's a continual improvement and a continual evolution.

And that's one of the kind of features that I'm really passionate about in terms of high performing team teams, specifically in project controls is making sure that there's there's not that kind of settling for good enough that there's always that striving and that continuous improvement to see how we can tweak and adjust our approach so that it can be more collaborative, more data, data orientated where possible, more creative in terms of the problem solving, etcetera.

Because kind of going back to I think it was one of the comments that Paul made earlier in terms of what project controls isn't, is just kind of a reporting engine.

Unless we're doing something about that data and that information and that insight, really it's not going to move the needle on success.

And I think it's challenging ourselves on that.

So it's a continual, it's a continual process, I would say.

Obviously, I want to ask you about data.

We live in a world now that is obsessed and having to face up to AI and everyone's jumping on it and some people are panicking and some people are using it well.

So big question for both of you that's probably impossible to answer, but what what do you think the future direction project controls is, especially around how quickly data is the use of data and AI and data analytics and everything around that.

It is progressing and that speed of change.

I think speed of change was inevitable and it's always going to be faster and we're going to have access to much more than we ever have done before.

I think it's important to understand that data is only one tool in our toolbox and therefore it's not the kind of panacea and the answer to everything.

With AI coming in, it's used in conjunction with other other, other elements that we have.

What is good is that I think with the the emergence of tech and the emergence of a lot of the, the products and solutions that are quickly coming onto the market off the back of kind of AI and machine learning and all of the good stuff that's coming through.

The the lag between availability of data, which can be then transformed into information and insights is becoming much closer together.

So ultimately that real time access to information will empower the project team to be able to really focus more on the the analysis rather than the actual gathering of that data in its in its first instance.

So I think that side of things is absolutely fantastic and will continue to evolve and improve.

I think, I think it's interesting that I'm tempted to give quite a clear answer to this question, say, well, it's going to be so much easier for you guys in the future than it ever was for me.

I'm not actually sure that's true.

I think, I think it could be harder and particularly with the introduction of AII think there's going to be a, again, a very human reaction could be to say, Oh, well, the machine will do it all for me.

And the machine will probably do it fairly well most of the time.

There's clearly going to be a period of transition while the machine learns how to do it.

And the, the, the data that, that, that it's built on is, is, is improved.

But, but I think it's going to be important that somebody, there's somebody there who understands a couple of things.

1 is how things are put together or how things should be put together.

So that, so that it can, can be a a critical friend, if you like, of the AI tool that's, that's built your estimate or schedule or whatever it may be.

And, and the other side is to use the, the sort of human insight, you know, use the human skills that we still have to, to change the insight that data will give us into a bit of foresight, you know, and into problem solving.

And I think that's probably, I mean, you can see, you can see a world and you consider the pace of change.

It's probably inconceivable how clever machines will get in the future.

But there's, I suspect, and I suspect we're seeing it already, there's a rocky road between that kind of Nirvana of, of when everything's working perfectly and, and where we are today, where, where the machines will make mistakes, make mistakes, etcetera.

And it's those human skills, I think, that will be important for critiquing the machines, putting them and putting them right.

Because it's a fantastic vehicle for communicating, but only if the information is correct and has been kind of.

And that I think currently as we're going through that learning journey with some of these, I think there does need to be an awful lot of that kind of human, human insight and human experience as we're going through this exponential change.

Where are things at right now with these changes with AI?

Do you do if you use them in projects at the moment, are they being, I mean how they're being employed or experimented with?

Are you able to say?

First of all, it depends on on which industry you're in.

I think some industries are much more exploratory in this area.

But certainly the the real inroads that I've seen and witnessed is all around that closing of closing of data gap so that you're getting real time information.

That's one of the things that's coming through really, really quickly and I think that's a positive step.

The other is around how things can be visualised and also how how things can be used in a predictive way.

Kind of going through going back to kind of Paul's comment in terms of that foresight and making sure that the the predictive analytics is starting to come through because it's all well and good at seeing where you are today.

It's where potentially you are heading tomorrow.

So that then the human in the loop can then essentially have the discussions with the team and decide how they, how they could respond to the various different probabilities of, of the kind of outcomes of the next stages.

So I think it's broad broadly, I think it's it's becoming a much better tool to use within, within that space of looking forward-looking at trends, looking at insights, etcetera.

But yeah, ultimately who who knows where we will be in another, in another 10 years time.

I have young kids that are both six and seven, and me and my husband often talk about what their careers and what their journeys are going to look like because it will be entirely different to what we've experienced.

Paul, was there anything you'd like to add to that?

I don't in a way think about the future that much other than the, the point I made previously about we must be aware of the way things should work or the way things should be set up.

The one thing to directly answer your question is yes, there are people out there doing stuff.

It's quite interesting, I think in that when people set out with the aim of doing something with a A, they may end up in a different place, which I think actually it's great project management that they've, they've, they've kind of adjusted their goals according to what is available in terms of data out there that they can then use for predictive purposes.

So it's definitely out there.

It does feel that those people are, and I have to just qualify this statement that I've been out of direct project involvement for a couple of years now.

But I would say that those people seem like they were fairly entrepreneurial at the moment, You know, people who were ahead of the game and, and, and, and, you know, working in a place where they probably have still quite a hard sell now, given the pace of change.

Two years has gone on.

And there may be some much better answers than than I could give to that question about how they've advanced.

But there are definitely people looking to exploit this area.

And there are some people who, I don't know, probably make a lot of money or lose a lot of money based on what works and what doesn't work.

The one thing for certain, I think is that it's there, it's coming and it's and it's getting bigger.

I don't think that detracts from certainly some of my experiences recently has been to not not overlook making sure that you have the brilliant basics in place because it's all well and good building all of the all of the kind of shiny new tools and technology on to, to try and kind of exploit those.

But if you do not have those brilliant basic foundations in place, there's very little that you can do to really get the true value of that.

And ultimately, when I talk about those brilliant basics, it's the it's it's the project controls techniques and the project management fundamentals and foundations that really set that up to be able to be exploited by project teams.

So it's just a kind of ordinary note to not overlook the importance of getting those rights first.

And getting the data right as well, to get the data clean.

OK, Yeah, that's great.

I mean, I've gone through this entire conversation without even asking you about the book.

So let's finish with it.

I mean, what was your guiding purpose for writing the book?

What did you want to achieve with it?

I think we may have different answers to the next question, given that we're at like, I suppose for me, the motivation was I, I, I alluded earlier on to being being called an expert and, and with without necessarily thinking I knew much and, and that, you know, the guidance that people should take an interest, etcetera.

And I think that's what I've done in my career and I've looked at things and I've, I've been critical of, of some of the shiny toys that people have come in.

But I've thought about it and I think that it is, you know, I, I thought that I had something to give and I thought it was worth trying to write it all down.

And in a way, that's why this book is the size it is, because I tried to write everything down, including not just, you know, how, how, what, what a technique is and how you might do it, but also some of the tips and tricks that we've learnt through, through the years.

So that was, that was kind of my motivation.

If I want to summarise that in a more, perhaps even honest way, is, is in a selfish sense, it's about leaving a legacy.

And I think that's important.

You know, you want to be remembered as somebody who contributed.

And I think the final contribution is to go out there and say, hey, guys, you might like to consider this.

Now, I'm not saying that everything in the book is, is 100% correct, but it's there to make you think, I hope.

And I think if people think about things, and I think if people think about things, even when they're setting up the machines to to do it all for them, I think that will help get a get a better result.

So really, it was, it was, it was about leaving a legacy, making sure there's no unfinished business before I could ride off into the sunset.

Karen And what was your what was your motivation in getting involved?

Just as a bit of a back story, I met Paul when I just started out in my career through the APM way back when.

I just joined some of the interest groups and for me, this was around the fact that now I've had that experience and I've gone through those journeys.

I have only got to where I've got to professionally because of the support and the encouragement of people within the profession and that kind of mentoring, that camaraderie and the profession.

And so for me, giving back to a profession that I'm really, really passionate about, this has been something that's been really important in my life and something that I've enjoyed and thrived within.

Really trying to give that back to the community, but also inspire the next generation of talent that will come through.

I'm hoping that there's somebody that will come into project control similar to position to me.

I'd have never heard of it before.

Meet somebody that's super passionate about it really early on in their career and falls in love with that and goes through a similar a similar career that they enjoy and thrive within.

And so that's kind of one of the main, the main drivers as to why I've got involved with this one as well.

It's time to wrap up because we've covered so much and it's been a real insight into world of project controls.

Are there any last words of advice or if there was one thing that you wanted listeners to go away to think about or take on board in their in their job, whether it's in project controls or project manager, what would you like to say?

So for me, it's just reiterating the kind of 3/3 fundamental things that pull everything together, like making sure that project controls isn't just there for, for the data, for the reporting.

It really needs to connect people, connect data, connect information.

It needs to be communicated well.

And that's different for different people and different, different stakeholders.

And it needs to be done in a, in, in a culture where there are the correct behaviours for that, that transparent, honest look at where we are on projects and programmes to really, really transform them for the better.

And that's probably my kind of closing, closing comment.

Yeah.

I think I, I think I'd come from a similar place, particularly with the the latter thing you said there, Carolyn.

I think it goes back to what we were saying before about having the right culture within which to operate.

I think that's so important and you're right to you're right to challenge us on that.

Or, you know, the world, the world is not as easy as as as you know, have the right culture.

Tick, you don't have that.

But what you can do is understand what your own culture, what your own ethics are and you can live by that.

And just that little bit, whoever you are will influence the organisation you're in.

And the more people that believe, believe in the same, have the same values and believe in the same values, you know, people come together and projects form their own culture, whether it be good or bad, but based based on the on, on who's on who's in, who's in board.

And I bet you, if I went back to the, the example I talked about before about good project controls being related to profitability, I bet you'd see other things there.

I bet you'd see a team that worked well together there because they had the right environment.

So I think that point about having, whilst it's, you know, it's glib and easy to say you need the right culture.

It's, it is so important.

But if you haven't got it, you, you don't have to walk.

You can, that's the option to go somewhere else.

But that does have the right culture, of course, but also just by being you and believing what you believe in, you've got a chance to influence that culture.

And you shouldn't underestimate the influence that you have.

That's a brilliant way to end the podcast.

That's kind of deep, inspirational, and eminently practical as well.

So it's fantastic.

It just leaves me to say thank you to both of you for your time and for your wisdom and your insights.

So thank you very much for joining the APM podcast.

Thank you.

It's.

Been a pleasure.

Thanks again to Paul Kidston and Carolyn Browning for joining us and to you for listening to the APM Podcast.

It's been an eye opening episode for me about every aspect of project controls, but I hope you'd agree.

Don't forget to look out for more episodes or to rate and review us.

Wherever you get your podcasts, we'd welcome you to get in touch with your comments, feedback, and suggestions by emailing us at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk.

This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the chartered body for the project profession.

For more information on APM, visit apm.org.uk.