Welcome to the APM podcast.

APM is the childhood body for the project profession.

My name's Emma Devita, and I'm the editor of Projects, APM's quarterly journal and your host.

With this podcast, I'm speaking to Francis Palmer, Chartered Project Professional and Associate Director at Gleeds, Dave Corbin, also a Chartered Project Professional, APM Fellow and Head of Client Accounts at Gleeds, and leadership and culture coach Anita Figura, who previously worked in infrastructure project management.

Francis and Dave helped set up APM's Built Environment Interest Network last year, with a special focus on diversity inclusion.

This week of International Women's Day, I've invited them to explore how the sector can become more diverse and inclusive, what actions really work, and how change can be accelerated.

Because to be honest, when it comes to gender equality, change in the workplace is glacial.

A PwC report published in March gave the UK its lowest ranking for workplace gender equality in a decade.

The gender pay gap could take more than 30 years at its current place to close.

Things have to change, so listen on for an honest and wide-ranging discussion with three professionals who want to accelerate the pace of change, especially during a backlash against diversity and inclusion.

What can employers, managers and individuals do about it?

Francis is based in Peru and just prior to our recording experienced a local earthquake, so do enjoy our earth shattering podcast.

Welcome everyone to the APM Podcast.

It's lovely to have you here.

Francis, do you want to tell us a bit about yourself and your interest in the Built Environment Interest Network?

Hi everybody, my name is Francis Palmer and I work for Gleed as an Associate Director of the organisation.

I used to work in the UK, but now I'm actually based in Peru and head up a group called International Women in Construction, which essentially I'm interested in because I feel that it's really important to hear the voice of women, showcase their achievements and essentially engage in women as a diversity group within the environment.

Thank you, Anita.

Tell us a bit about yourself and your interests in this area.

I'm Anita Figura, I am a specialist in inclusion within the built environment and I'm a leadership and culture coach with a background in project management within the sector, specifically railway infrastructure.

I'm really passionate about gender equity in the sector and addressing the needs of all women so that our projects can thrive.

Thank you, Anita and Dave.

My name is Dave Corbyn, I work for Gleeds, I'm the head of client accounts.

I'm lucky enough to have worked in a built environment for over 30 years now, which I think officially makes me a dinosaur.

And I've seen, I've seen lots of different roles and facets of the industry, mostly of which have been male dominated over the years.

It doesn't represent the communities we serve or the life we live.

So I'm really keen to see that gender equality change.

We're recording this close to International Women's Day in March 2025, but there was a report out this morning from PwC, which is a bit depressing about the state of gender equality in the UK at the moment.

It's not really accelerating, it's kind of stuck.

And this is something that, you know, we wanted to cover in this podcast, so we'll come on to that later.

But I think it'd be interesting to get an overview of how the built environment sector looks when it comes to women and minorities as well.

So, Dave, do you want to give us a bit of background?

I think it's still quite a traditional sector.

Historically it's one that's been quite confrontational and I and I wonder if that's why in as time gone by, it was more of a, a male dominated career choice.

You know, that table Shrump in size 14 boots man wins the day.

So I think, I think it's improving in the project management environment.

But sadly, I think many clients still expect that kind of confident, extroverted dominant personality in my room.

And and that's what's, that's what, that's what's going to change.

Thank you.

Fran.

Would you agree with that?

Yeah.

And I think, well, for me it's interesting because being out here in Peru, I get to see a developing country and how things might be slightly different from the UK somewhere else.

And I think the UK is held off on quite a pedestal about its inclusion on the diversity policies that there are a higher percentage of women within the built environment, for example.

So it's about 15% I believe in the UK at the moment, but in Peru it's around 7.

And I think there's a strong perception that if somebody went from Peru and worked in the UK, they would feel totally included and and it's a really diverse industry to be into.

But having worked there and only recently going through in the last sort of four years, I know that that's not really the case and that there's still a lot of work to be done to ensure that people genuinely.

And the way I, the reason I kind of emphasise genuinely is because a lot of people focus on statistics.

And yes, there are improvements.

Yes, there are more female roles within the industry and potentially are sort of driving away into those more senior roles.

But I would say that there's still a sentiment of it being a white male industry.

And if you project yourself as a white male, you are forceful in the way that you engage in the construction community, in the building environment, then you're going to succeed.

And I don't think there's been a lot of progress for the 20 years that I've been in industry to, to change that.

You're working on actual projects, you're at the coalface of projects.

When you go out, you are in Peru, it's not the UK, so it's different.

But do you see many other women when you go out on projects?

Do you have any colleagues who are female?

Or do you feel very on your own out there as a woman?

There are a lot of people in sort of the the structure that I work within.

We're working on large scale strategic infrastructure programmes and actually on site.

There are women on site, but they're mainly in a kind of health and safety role.

They're not the site managers, they're not the decision makers.

And you do find that in the office as well.

There's a lot of architects, there's a lot of actually interesting, the structural engineers, but they're very office based and not in those senior roles.

And it's more that opinions don't get respected in the same way being women in the industry here.

Have you experienced that first hand since you've been in Peru or recently?

How?

How do you handle it?

I think that's an interesting question because in some respects you kind of don't it's, it's difficult to, if you're sitting in a room and it's quite an intimate digging environment and you're putting your opinion across and it's not getting heard, What, what can you do in that situation?

You kind of almost have to and and yes, there is an opinion that you kind of could say something, but really is that the right environment to do that?

Is that going to gain you more respect in the long run?

Or do you kind of just take it on the tin, finish the meeting and and try and sort of see where maybe sometimes you get self reflective of yourself?

Did I handle that in the right way?

Was maybe I didn't say something correct and that was the issue because that's how it's actually coming across.

So it's, it's very difficult I think to address it, but it's also very difficult to to change because the structures that are in place encourages that sort of behaviour.

Anita, from your perspective, how does the built environment sector look when it comes to but especially minorities?

Because I know that this is a strong area of research for you.

So tell us a bit about that.

For the last year or so I've been doing some research on the experiences of women in the built environment and specifically those from racialised groups, so across different ethnic diversities.

And that report's coming out, it's coming out this month.

But some of what we found is that experiences for women across groups is challenging.

So across groups, we're seeing that women are impacted by toxic cultures, this idea of harmful banter, and there's lots of things that are impacting women holistically.

But then in some areas, women from, I'm going to talk about women from underrepresented ethnicities, they are experiencing some of these challenges even more greatly.

So what we're seeing is actually that toxic culture, women from those underrepresented ethnicities were much more likely to experience the cultures as being toxic.

But something that we were seeing as well was around well-being.

And you mentioned around this burden of what, what do we do in that situation?

And some of the, and, and again, this was an issue that was impacting women across the board, But we can see that you're having to deal with microaggressions or these aggressions, these comments that come at you, you're having to prove yourself.

You're dealing with sexism for some women that also dealing with racism or other types of discrimination.

And then there's also like a, a burden or a responsibility for these senior women in particular to try and make it better, not just for themselves, but everybody else.

So this real burden of like responsibility was a, a real strong theme that came up.

So we're really seeing like a well-being impact as well.

So the research really is a call to action for the industry.

It's a call to action on how we can raise the bar and particularly when it comes to cultures, particularly what what we can do with our sphere of influence as if we are leader leaders or project managers, whether we're leading teams or organisations, how can we better support women in our organisation?

And then for the women that feel are impacted by these issues.

It's also just to recognise that your experiences, you're not alone and that it's OK to ask for help and support because the environments aren't necessarily made for many of us.

We've spoken about how they're centred perhaps on on kind of this idea of what leadership used to be and that being in the mould of a certain type of white man.

I, I think it can be like the, a pressure in terms of women going into more senior position and feeling that burden of, of trying to represent women and, and trying to really, or any diversity group to be honest and trying to really invoke change and feeling that that's the responsibility that they have to carry.

But also I, I think generally as you work your way up through the industry as well, you've been going through this whole cycle of having to work harder to get notice, having to project yourself in potentially a way that doesn't feel as comfortable as you would like it to.

So almost sort of projecting a different sense of yourself within your working environment, but also having really honestly a sense of rejection constantly and that's going to affect your mental health in quite serious ways.

So then when you're looking at going into into seeing a roles, you're already exhausted.

You've already gone through a whole working life of kind of pushing yourself in, in a sense that doesn't always feel comfortable.

Have you changed that?

Are you more comfortable or confident to to be more authentic to yourself and not play into those stereotypes of how you should be or how you feel you what you need to do to fit in?

I don't think you find myself now and in late years thinking what do I actually think in this situation?

Not what do I want other people to think that I'm thinking or what do I believe that they want to hear?

What do I actually feel?

And sometimes I do almost see this, but here we go again.

So because I, I do feel more confident to be able to put my voice and my opinions across.

And sometimes that might seem to be somebody that's constantly trying to be outspoken and and be heard, but don't really see a problem with that.

He stays.

I mean, I've always stayed away from women in construction, women in groups, because I almost felt like if I put myself in that position, then it's all it's stepping out of that normal characteristic of, Oh no, everybody should be able to succeed in their own merit at that general perception of why do we have to have these groups?

If you're good at your job and you are proactive and determined, then you're going to succeed on.

And, and I always sort of felt like I had to believe that I, you know, I do believe that to a degree.

But if if you don't have an equal stab at it, then you're not going to be able to represent yourself in the same way, and you're not going to be heard and you're not going to be treated as equal.

It's very established what needs to change, but what can we do to breakthrough the barriers and to get change happening?

And I mean, I wanted to ask you what you feel the biggest barriers are to a attracting more women to the sector and then retaining them and getting them to more senior levels.

I think probably better to focus on retaining women.

Like what happens.

You might start off feeling as though you're not, there's no bias, you're treated absolutely equally, but then something happens kind of mid career.

Is it when you have kids or just what happens?

Why do women leave at senior levels?

Be interested to get all of your perspectives on that.

I mean, who'd like to?

Who'd like to start with that?

Some recent statistics show that women in the built environment are, I think the stat was 45%, but there's a big proportion of women leaving around the age of 34.

And so it does seem to be that mid career level.

And I think I think the industry we've done, we focus so much on attracting women, which is important.

And yet if we don't address our cultures, then we are going to, we lose women as fast as we attract women in.

So that has to be the focus.

I think it's challenging.

I think you spoke about the the knock of the confidence.

And I think if we recognise that it's a cultural issue and it is these sometimes small things but sometimes bigger things that are impacting people's confidence, then it becomes internalised as well as you recognising that there are barriers beyond your control.

But what I see is that people, they might leave the sector or they might leave the job because they feel actually exhausted by having to fight these barriers.

And they hold that experience with them wherever they go next if they did leave.

And then that impacts their choices as well.

Will they go for that promotion?

Will they go for a new opportunity because they're tired, They're exhausted of it, having it having been a battle for so long, and they're not necessarily being met by support.

But when we can find that support, that's really important.

When people do raise it, well, that becomes a choice as well.

And like, is that a path worth pursuing?

Because what will be the repercussions if they do raise it?

And will they be believed?

Will that even be seen?

Because some, a lot of this stuff people might say, well, that's just a small thing or you're overreacting.

So you're not necessarily knowing if you will be believed or or trusted in in your experiences.

And actually, it's a challenge at a time, if you've had children, it's a challenge at a time that you don't really want to face challenges because you've got enough challenges in your life anyway.

You're having to go home and look after your children and spend the whole weekend with them.

You're exhausted.

You might not be getting any sleep.

You could actually still be breastfeeding while you're working.

You know, there's so many different aspects that come into that sense of exhaustion that, yeah, it's, it's difficult to actually quantify the extent at which that exhaustion materialises.

But also, you know, there could be conflicts with your husband at home because you've gone back to work and then who's going to be looking after the children?

Are you then really going to want to say to him, oh, by the way, I'm actually going to go for promotion now, and that means that I won't be at home even more.

So we're going to have to find him some more support out there.

All those things that add up that probably just make you think, you know what, I'm just going to stay where I am because I know my job.

I don't have to face any different conflict than the ones that I'm already facing.

And I'm just going to, I'm just going to ride it out because I don't have the mental capacity to try and add anything else to to my life at the moment.

That's interesting.

So because one of the problems or one of the issues when I've spoken to women, my career in construction and they said that their colleagues often when they went on maternity leave or before, when they came back, assumed that they wouldn't want to go for promotion, that they had different levels of ambition.

And actually for the couple of women I spoke to, they were angry about that because why make that assumption?

It might be true, but why when before you left for maternity leave, you've been included at a very senior level, consulted and when you come back, it's almost like you've dropped down to rungs and the assumption being that you just don't have that level of ambition.

So it's, it's quite interesting.

What do you think?

About that, I left my permanent role after having my child.

That was when I formally left my project management role and.

Actually, I found that my ambition came like hurtling back actually, after a few years of career knocks that had made me decide to take some sideways steps.

So I think you're absolutely right that it can be different for different women.

And then also, as Fran pointed out, actually we all, for a lot of women, particularly if you're in a heterosexual relationship, there might be imbalances that you also have to consider and how that impacts your career.

For my experience, I was ready to leave the organisation I was at for personal reasons, for career development.

But the blocker that I found in finding the new role that I was seeking was that cross section of flexibility meeting my ambition.

And at that point, I wasn't really ready to or wanting to make that compromise.

So that was my personal reason for actually doing work differently in the sector and leaving a permanent role.

And then as I started to reflect on my experiences, it was also those those cultural aspects that were, were the challenges that actually made me resistant to go back into an organisation if I might face those again.

I don't think it was conscious at the time, but that was also a fact.

I want to find an organisation where I might not face some of those experiences again.

And when I speak to women, a part of my research was speaking to women.

And they have, some of them have been put into, have been recently in those situations where they feel pushed out of the jobs that they're in because some of these workplace discriminations or, or actually because they weren't supported when they were going through challenging times that actually that was the reason that they perhaps wouldn't want to stay there.

So yeah, there's lots of those elements to think about how we support women in the workplace that and as leaders, as organisational leaders.

It isn't A1 size fits all, but how can we look at what are the barriers, How can we remove those barriers and meet the needs of the women in front of us without making some of those assumptions?

We're kind of talking about the individual and then that kind of weighed up against organisational kind of responsibility in terms of inclusion and diversity.

And personally, on an individual level, I have always felt like I've had the support of my Direct Line manager, for example, or the person that is encouraging me to kind of take the next step.

Or I've, I've never felt like actually on an individual level, if I have said to somebody I really want to become a director or I feel like I'm ready to head up the element of our organisation.

It's never been like, oh, well, I don't, I don't think you're quite ready.

We'll have this conversation then it's time.

Facts.

It's always been.

That's great, you know, but I'm really impressed that you feel like that.

I'm encouraging you.

I know that you're good at your work and you demonstrates to us that you've had the ability, but let's see how that actually works out in practise.

And then and I've kind of gone, oh, am I ready for this?

Maybe I can make that decision to, to kind of move forward and press ahead in my career.

And then when I've tried to kind of reach out to, to find some support, maybe not by my life Direct Line manager, by somebody else in the organisation or trying to discover what kind of flexibility there is or looking to engage with a mentor or something.

I, I then come, that's when those barriers come into effect for me.

It's more the organisational level that where is that support then?

But when I'm going, oh, is it my time to make that career jump?

Where is that lean into that I can take from the organisation and to to feel like I'm supported in taking that decision?

Because as much as my line director might feel like I'm a good employee and they want to support me, is that actually a reality?

And and that's where I think on an organisational level, I can come on Stack in terms of really feeling like, yeah, you might have some the diversity inclusion policies that represent some essence that the organisation is thinking about it.

But what's actually been implemented?

What's tangible to know that you're really going to support me if I take this decision?

Yeah.

So it's like evidence that they're walking the talk, like what you're actually doing about this.

But one thing I wanted to ask Dave is about the barriers, a kind of later career, so reaching the very kind of top echelons of organisations.

And that is a problem for all sectors everywhere, but particularly within kind of male dominated sectors.

I'd be interested to know what your perspective on on all of that is.

Interesting, as I've been listening to, to, to this conversation, it, it's made me realised that actually a lot of the issues and and barriers that that have been shared today are, are ones that men also face, but just nowhere near as magnified.

It sounds like, you know, not not being listened to is something that that you face, especially when you're young in your career and you're, you're looking to be to, to, to lead A-Team feeling tired and exhausted when the when the children were young.

You know, I remember that and, and I did hardly half of the stuff that my wife would have been doing at the time.

I remember coasting for a few years because I was just not interested in progressing like, but, but these were all these.

So all these were things that I, I kind of felt, but I never saw them as like things that were going to stop me.

And I think as I've been reflecting, I think it's because everywhere I look, there's sources of inspirational role models that help me go.

Yeah, but if you just get through this and that's where you can get to.

And I think if I was to try and put my foot in the shoes of Bran or Anita or many others, you know, you go, well, where are those sources of inspiration?

Where are those?

And I think there are more and more females now commanding better top jobs, but there's still nowhere near enough.

The one thing I'm absolutely sure of is that there is a drop off in senior project manager females moving into top jobs and and, and that that has to be something that's that's looked at.

I think there's a problem at the beginning where maybe the school careers advisors don't alert young females into the world of the built environment and and construction and infrastructure.

I think there's an issue in the middle elements of career where the environment that they're within isn't necessarily how it should be.

And that cultural piece.

And then, then you've got the, the real problem.

Well, a part of the problem, which is how do, how do we make sure that senior women are given the opportunities that that men are given?

And I, I just, I just worry that organisations that are predominantly men by run by men or with a culture of being run by men are still making decisions through the lens of a man and that, that, that's an area that I think we need to look at to improve.

It's only interesting because you talk about education as a tool for eradicating poverty, as a way of, you know, education is of often deemed a solution, isn't it, to facing an issue upfront sustainability, for example, if you teach people that they should reuse and recycle, then more people are going to do it, aren't they?

And that might actually be true for diversity.

More education around unconscious bias, more education about the fact that there are different ways of presenting yourself.

And it's still being a correct way in terms of, I always go back to, you know, in the school playground, men are often, our boys are often trading football cards or talking about statistics.

You know, their focus of interaction is quite transactional.

And that actually comes through in the workplace when you're having a presentation, you like to focus on statistical information, you know, peaks and troughs and trends.

And maybe you can still demonstrate a situation by explaining it through storytelling, for example, which is something that women do actually learn quite early on as a as a girl when they're being very stereotypical here, you know, creative play and that kind of thing.

So, but there are sort of skills that you learn from a very early age that are ingrained and and brought into the work environment that dictate how something is discussed and talked about.

Where actually if you educate people in different ways of doing things, then that might actually show that people come at things in a different way.

And actually, quite often that does surround action into diversity groups where there might be cultural factors that come into play into the way that you present something or the way that you engage with people.

I wanted to ask you is like, why should men need to be included and involved when we talk about gender equality work or when we talk about women at work?

Dave, why do men need to be involved in this?

Why is it not something that should just be syphoned off to women's groups somewhere?

And you know, it's for everyone who works in an organisation.

The reality is, is that we're striving for greater equity in our industry and at present that there are still more men than women, which means that many leadership and decision making roles are held by men.

A while ago we had discussions around improving maternity policies at Cleeds and at the time we had to prioritise initiatives that are based on their immediate impact and and maternity policy was not initially at the top of the agenda, which was simply due to the number of people it would affect compared to, to other areas we were addressing at the time.

That said, I'm I'm pleased to share that Cleeds have recently introduced a much more modern and inclusive parental leave policy, which is a fantastic step forward, but it highlights the importance of having diverse perspectives in leadership, different viewpoints that can help shape priorities in in meaningful ways.

So for me, the key take away is the role that we all play in fostering an inclusive culture, supporting colleagues, addressing unconscious biases, encouraging open conversations that can drive that positive change.

And, and most of the time, behaviours that may seem exclusionary are not intentional, but rather a result of ingrained habits or lack of awareness.

So that's what it's important for all of us, especially men in leadership positions, to be mindful, you know, challenge those outdated mindsets, you know, create that culture where everyone feels value and heard.

And and I think progress starts with awareness and the willingness to make a difference.

Isn't it about kind of bringing, bringing men along with you along with you in the journey, because the intention isn't to isolate men within this.

It's about having men as your allies.

And as soon as you don't include men in this conversation and understand from their perspective where you're, where they're coming from and demonstrate to not just men and other diversity groups or who your audience, what the issues are that you face, then you're you're putting it in a you're putting it in a corner, but you're also isolating them and, and not hearing their opinions.

So it's really important to, to bring those two fronts together or, yeah, to bring men into the conversation to ensure that you don't then go off on a, a diversion that actually they feel excluded because that's not the intention of, of, of this whole movement.

Dave, can I?

I mean, how do men who want to do the right thing feel about all this?

It sounds as though it's kind of treading on the egg shells a bit.

Well, I think there's a.

So firstly, most, most of what we talk about is just being more inclusive in your working environment.

And, and we have to, it's shocking in a one way that we have to remind ourselves to be nice and, and thoughtful because ultimately that's what it comes down to.

And so we, we do have to take ourselves, We do need to spare the time, I think as, as males to go, oh, this isn't about the guys in the male form that I've worked with over the last 10 years.

And that's how we do things.

And it's OK to talk about these things because it's for guys, you know, we have to remind ourselves that the, the conversations need to be more inclusive as a, as a basic, you know, right, you know, just the basic element of, of, of respect.

So I think, I think and, and we're actually seeing a whole heap of issues around inclusivity kind of be addressed or being, being brought to the attention at the moment as well.

So gender being gender imbalance being one of those, as a man, I think you do feel like you're treading on egg shells, but that's not a bad thing if it's because it's making you think so.

So one of my colleagues was sharing with me some of the conversations she's had with other male colleagues about women in our business.

And some of them have felt a little bit nervous about being seen to be an ally because they're worried about how that looks and how that feels.

And, and that not enough to stop them being an ally, but they're just sharing that that's how they're kind of fit.

There's a, there's a sense of nervousness about how, how am I seeing if I stick my head above the parapet?

Now that that's nothing compared to, to how other people might feel from from the other side of things, But it's but it's still worth understanding if that's a potential barrier to being the best ally that you can be.

But I will say, can I just add one more thing that as a, as a male in the built environment, I see absolutely no reason why it can't thrive with a completely gender neutral include most inclusive way of life.

Because I think it's, it's a great, it's a great role.

It's a testing one.

It's hard and it and it's, but there's nothing in our environment that stops it being something for everyone.

And so for me, it's get, it's kind of trying to work out the systemic issues that stop people thriving in their careers.

Really what I wanted to ask all of you, as well as like what actions actually work.

Something that some companies have tried is kind of reverse mentoring.

So you're actually, I think you said put your feet in someone else's shoes.

But what I'd like to ask all three of you, what actions have you seen that work?

Anita, would you like to tell us what you've seen in your, your kind of role as leadership and coach culture coach?

So then we've spoken about lots of things today.

We've spoken about education.

We've spoken about raising awareness and tackling unconscious bias.

And I'm going to say controversially, perhaps that's not the answer, I don't think, because I think we've been doing that for years and it's not working.

And it's not to say that we don't need education, but there needs to be the open mindedness to receive that education.

And when we answer that, we move past awareness into action and into real change that is systemic and sustainable and long lasting.

Because when we spend our time saying it's International Women's Day, let's talk about women, then it's not enough to drive change.

And actually the education piece with inclusion is actually a real unlearning rather than a, rather than just let's learn about the experiences of people who are different than ourselves is actually an unlearning of the things that we have been conditioned as we have grown up in an environment where there are inequities.

So there's we're having to strip down layers of things that people and all of us thought we knew.

So we're having to turn a lot of stuff on it's head.

So while education is part of that, we really actually need a real much more broader approach to what that education is or it looks like.

And it's engaging in some meaningful dialogue, I think supported and facilitated and its inclusive leaders really understanding why we're doing this work.

Why does it matter?

And I don't always talk about the business case, but actually like why does it matter in your organisation and in your team if women are leaving your organisation after you haven't spent time on attracting them into the organisation?

That is a huge business case for you to care and to make their experiences better so you don't lose out on that talent.

It's a huge reputational gain.

And I talk about raising the bar in our sector because actually I don't think we should be comparing ourselves to each other when the bar's so low.

What can we do to make things better?

And and with with that, we take learnings from the winds.

So in some of my research, what I found is we found some really great case study examples of the leaders who might be get who are in some cases doing some really great things.

So one of the things that we found was actually as a response to the the race riots in last summer.

The research that I did found that a majority of women from who were under underrepresented from the ethnicity, they did not feel supported by their organisations.

Only three out of 10 felt supported.

But we also had the examples of women that were telling me actually in my organisation, I don't feel safe out on the street.

But my, my manager checked in with me.

My I knew my team were there for me.

I felt safer at work than I did in, in society.

So we can do some really great things for our people.

Let's be the ones that raise the bar and make our environment safe where women can thrive, women of all ethnicities, all identities, and let's support them to get into leadership.

Thank you, Fran.

What, what would it take to accelerate change within organisation?

What do you think works and what what can you do as an individual to encourage this as well?

Just everything I think to you just said I think is really interesting.

And yeah, it seems kind of almost naive to think or have said about education because you're completely correct that we've been working on trying to educate people and trying to demonstrate these unconscious biasness and, and, and change that mentality in an informative way.

And you know, here we are, however many years later and nothing's really changed.

It's really difficult to really.

Pinpoint what is going to be that momentous kind of you read the moment that will spring into action to to to create change.

But I think I was talking to somebody previously and there have been other industries that have reflected a similar dis preparatory between women and men.

And there have been changes that have come through.

And I suppose one of its kind of perseverance making sure that there are not only just diversity inclusion policies within an organisation, but they're actually being implemented and demonstration of that implementation.

So almost KPI is to say, right, excellent, you've got some policies, but how are you actually achieving those policies?

And what can you show as results from those that show that you've got a better attention of women because you've you've applied a really good mentoring scheme across the organisation that you've used, you know, different ways of promoting your internships or encouraging people into the industry that has actually brought about not just a statistical change, but through your well-being surveys or something, you're getting better results the for women within the organisation feeling more included, respected and experiencing a better sense of well-being.

OK.

Thank you.

Dave.

What do you think works?

What have you, what gets discussed at the kind of top levels of organisation, what what has some kind of bang for its buck when it comes to policies or things to try to help move this, move the dial on this?

I think the reverse mentoring piece, senior leadership team is probably the most powerful.

I mean, I've definitely benefited from having a female mentor throughout my career who happens to be a close friend who works in a different sector.

And she's, she shared with me on many, over many glasses of wine, the, the trials and tribulations that she's faced and, and really opened my eyes to it.

And, and, you know, I'd like to think that I've developed my understanding through, through those kind of understanding her, her experiences.

So I think I think anything that can help senior decision makers to to understand the journey and the challenges that that that people have faced, I think is really powerful.

I think calling it out is the, the second thing that has a massive impact.

You know, if you're, if you're called out and it's done in the right way, you will learn from it and, and you will be more mindful of it in the future.

And if you can create a culture where it's OK to call it out, even better.

But if you haven't, then having your ally that can call out on your behalf is, is just, you know, maybe not as impactful, but is impactful.

I think the last thing and, and this is, I guess it shows my evolution of understanding of the situation is, yeah, my views on needing more purposeful action has just got stronger over time.

I think the latest stats from the World World Economic Forum is that gender parity isn't likely to be reached until 2158.

2158.

2158, which is five generations now.

I know you wanted me to add some positivity to this call, but the, the sad reality is like, if that's the case, it's just not good enough.

So we have to do some, some have some take some positive action to, to address it.

And if that means that some people miss out in the short term because there there's a need to to address the imbalance and then so be it.

We live in interesting times, all the kind of there's a backlash against diversity inclusion at the moment.

Why is it so important to focus on this issue right now and move it from being stuck?

Like, what do you, each of you think about that, Fran?

So for me it's really important to address this as an issue.

Now there's data coming out demonstrating that actually is female within senior role within the construction industry are one of the lowest in industry in total.

And so it's really important that we address this.

The construction industry is continually developing.

There's a need for innovation, there's a need for more inclusive environments that create creativity and without a diverse mix of worse workforce, I don't believe this is a possibility.

Organisations need to make sure that they're structured in a way that enables personal development and growth.

True leadership.

It's just about, it's not just about delivering projects, it's also about giving people the space, the environment to be heard, to be treated fairly and respectfully.

And this comes from the organisation, it's not just the individual.

And that's why it's important to ensure that these are being implemented now because if there are movements arising that coming through in the younger generation that emphasises inequality, then organisations need to stand up and say that this isn't something that they want to represent within the organisation that they are functioning in.

Anita, what do you think?

What?

Why do we need to focus on this issue right now?

How are you going to get it unstuck?

So I think it's really important that we focus on it now more than ever.

Absolutely, right.

Because of this backlash, what we're seeing in the United States for an example, but we are seeing it in the UK as well, is that this backlash to DEI, this backlash to create in diverse, inclusive environments.

They are safety issues ultimately.

And if I've learned anything in my 20 years in the built environment is we say that that's the thing we prioritise the most.

However, as a sector, we aren't doing it holistically.

People are being harmed by workplaces beyond just physical health, and that is being missed.

So like it should be ingrained in our culture, just what you said, Emma, it should be ingrained in our culture.

It's not yet, but we absolutely need it to align with our values.

So it is.

And to be honest, like what do we call DEI?

Part of me is on the case of do you know what?

It sort of doesn't matter as long as you do the work.

And if that's what you've got to do because there's a backlash, then do that.

But also, it doesn't mean that we should just sugarcoat it so that we can please everyone.

Sometimes you're going to have to have some challenging conversations and if we are trying to meet everyone's needs, we we absolutely still need to make sure that we're meeting the needs of those most impacted, most marginalised.

And that's why I really advocate of for us to really understand what we need to do in our specific organisations and more widely in our sector.

OK.

Thank you, Dave.

Any final words?

Why do we need to focus on this issue now?

I think, I think the, the, there is a rise of misogyny and the younger generations that we need to educate and continue to, to really demonstrate our clear values and behaviours as a, as a responsible business industry sector.

So, so that's, that's definitely something that is a little bit alarming at the moment in the short term, you know, in the short term.

But fundamentally, you know, projects are becoming more complex, bigger, more political, and we need the best people to be leading those projects.

And, and we're, and quite frankly, we're missing out at the moment.

Some of the best people are leaving our industry or, or not coming into it in the first place.

So, so yeah, we have to, we need more brighter, better talented project managers and, and, and maybe that's full stop for me.

That's perfect way to end this podcast.

It just leads me to say thank you to all of you for your time and your honesty and your desire to kind of talk about this issue and make change happen.

So thanks very much.

Yeah, thanks.

Thanks for having me.

Thank you.

Thank you everybody.

Thanks again to Francis, Dave and Anita for joining us and to you for listening to the APM podcast.

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A link to Anita's research can also be found in the notes for this podcast.

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