Welcome to the APM podcast, brought to you by the childhood body for the project profession.

My name is Emma Devita, editor of Project Journal and your host.

Sustainability and project management remains a hot topic, but it can be hard to get to grips with.

Depending on your specific role and level of seniority, you may feel unable to influence the sustainability of your projects.

Perhaps issues like net ero and social inequality feel remote for your day-to-day working lives.

In this episode, however, we're going to hear why sustainability isn't just a top down directive.

It can be driven by project professionals at all levels through small meaningful actions that influence outcomes and contribute to long term positive change.

Under the heading of Projects for a Better Future.

The recent APM conference held in Coventry in mid June was a deep dive into sustainability.

This episode brings together some of the highlights from the two day event.

We'll hear top tips on the business benefits to be gained, how to build stronger ecosystems with stakeholders, and why sustainability success hinges on collaboration.

To start with, let's hear from Aaron Katan, Sustainability Manager at the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority.

He explored how the UN Sustainable Development Goals, or SDGS, can be used to strengthen project business cases.

He explored sustainability related benefits such as reducing carbon, cutting costs and attracting talent, and stressed the need to integrate stakeholder views and sustainability into decision making.

So in three months time, it's going to be almost 10 years since the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals were agreed and ratified by over 190 countries globally.

Now on average, adults in the world, 75% of adults are aware of the SDGS Sustainable Development Goals.

In the UK, that number is closer to 10%, which is pretty terrifying.

And it's also really odd because we have some of the best institutions that can measure the stats behind the SDG.

So we have the Office for National Statistics and we can measure how well we're doing.

And despite the UK being a pivotal part in that agreement of the SDGS, we've still got a long way to go.

And when I first came across the SDGS about six years ago, I thought they were these big lofty goals.

How do they relate?

But the more I've used them, the more I've realised how profound they can be in projects and for all of you as project professionals, how you can go away and use them.

So that's what this is all about.

How can we go from these goals at the country level into more company level aspirations?

So let's look at the big picture.

Every year the World Economic Forum puts out their Global Risk Survey and Global Risks Report, and it changes from year to year.

But you can see from the next two to 10 years, there's a significant increase in risk categories around social, environmental, economic factors, often a big overlap with kind of the conventional pillars of sustainability.

And there's an increasing number of them in that environmental and social aspect, inequality, climate change and so on.

And these are businesses, business, risk perceptions.

And the reality is that they're all very interlinked.

You cannot look at each one in a silo.

So things like extreme weather events have impacts on chronic health conditions, infectious diseases and so on.

They all impact each other.

And the size of the circle demonstrates the size of the risk.

Societal polarisation is a big one and you might think as an organisation I don't have an impact on that, but you might have an impact on human rights, supply chain, economic opportunity, unemployment.

So you might be able to have a bigger impact on some of these issues more than you think.

And so this global risk survey and this map produced starts to give you an insight into how these systems thinking, how these all interact with each other and how you can start to have an impact.

And that's really important part of sustainability in general.

How can you explore stakeholder perceptions and stakeholder views and build that into your decision making and your outcomes for a project?

But why bother doing all of this?

Yes, there's a compliance element.

We need to do it.

There's a moral and ethical imperative, but there's also a business case.

There's also benefits to organisations, so the Infrastructure Carbon Review published more than 10 years ago by the Treasury so that if leaders don't believe there's value in reducing carbon, as one example, nothing happens.

But they also found that organisations were able to reduce carbon on by 39% on average, and that led to a direct cost reduction of 22%.

So there's some real business benefits from reducing carbon.

They're also climate risks.

So again, the World Economic Forum says that businesses could lose up to 7% in value by 2035 if they don't factor in their climate risks.

A little bit closer to home, we did a survey last year through the early career stuff across the NDA group.

85% of them said that they're more likely to apply to a company with strong sustainability credentials.

Now we've got huge skills issues.

Nuclear sector does a lot of sectors too to be honest, and this is a real big opportunity to attract the right people.

Doctor Sam Healy is Group Director, ESG at Kinetic first session on the role of the sustainability SME discussed how embedding sustainability into project planning reduces risk and enhances outcomes.

She highlighted the importance of social values, stakeholder engagement and collaboration and stressed that your approach to sustainability doesn't have to be perfect.

The key take away is start small, be optimistic and use your sustainability network to support your journey.

You can just start with some basics which can really ensure that you have reduced risk in your project.

And I know in our in the keynote this morning there was that, you know, piece around risk, that risk mindset.

It's a really great place to start.

Reducing risk is a really important part of what we do when we run projects.

So it's making sure that, you know, we've got maybe those sustainability credentials, right?

We've got that compliance, right.

We've got that risk reduction, right.

So you know that that's the foundation and building sustainability into that mindset means that those facets that you have to deal with are baked into that.

But also there are areas where you can start to drive improved and considered delivery.

You know, how are you building social value into it?

How are you using that as an enabler?

You know, for example, it's a fantastic thing to do.

It's really beneficial to your project, but actually you're doing the win win there.

You bring your customers into those social value interventions so that you're spending more time with your customers and they can see what you're doing.

They're enjoying the interaction.

It's something that we've really found incredibly beneficial.

So you're you're being successful on the stakeholder engagement, you're being successful on the social value.

You can start to actively alter your approach, start to really bake sustainability into those aspects of what you're doing, actively making your solutions more sustainable, creating those options for your for your customers, also your internal customers, helping them achieve their sustainability goals, maybe goals they didn't know that they could achieve without your help.

And also, again, it goes back to that piece about landscape is horizon scanning, working out how across your value chain of your projects.

So working with your suppliers, working with your customers is collectively looking at these horizon issues so that you're really comfortable you're all on the same journey and know what those drivers are.

I would really like to stress the ecosystem and this kind of builds me to the, to the crux of, of what I want to talk about next is so much of sustainability needs to be a collaboration.

Sustainability is fundamentally a shared endeavour.

There are many, many stakeholders involved in this process who have a vested interest in success.

But also in so many of the cases, actually a lot of the sustainability happens at the boundaries of what you're trying to achieve.

It will be with those relationships with your suppliers, It will be the relationships with your customers which will allow you to be successful.

So actively creating your ecosystem, working with your stakeholders, proactively creating conversations where you might not have all the answers, but actually generating those conversations can be incredibly powerful.

Part of what I do is I chair 2 working groups, I chair our industry sustainability group, and I'm also on the board of the professional body for sustainability professionals.

And I think one of the most critical things that we see is the power of the network is using and working with your network proactively, not just reactively working out how you can go faster together.

And this is what we've certainly seen across the industry is there's so much you can share that means you can all go faster and make progress.

You can all play to your strengths.

So an incredibly important aspect of success and sustainability.

And then finally Bespoke, it's really about, you know, do you want to become the next organisation like Patagonia that you know, is is known for sustainability?

To be honest, that's not everybody's journey.

It may not be your ambition corporately or for your project.

And actually that's OK.

It might be that sustainability just makes good sense for your project.

It reduces risk or it creates some possibility.

So this isn't designed to be sort of a perfect pyramid with, you know, the, the pinnacle at the top.

That's just one of the possible solutions that could be beneficial.

And that will be down to you and your, and your customers and your, your stakeholders and so on.

So I've just prompted some, some areas of, of value that could potentially work for you and your project.

And you know, that could be strengthen your ecosystem because actually strengthen your ecosystem builds your customer relationships or builds your supply relationships, which means you work Better Together.

It could be future proofing or being successful in bids.

I, I won't sort of read through the whole list, but there are many different facets and it goes back to materiality, which is not everything will be perfect for you.

There will be different things that you can go after and you can go after some small things and work those up.

So I think it's about being optimistic to try some stuff out and maybe not feel that you can't move until you've got perfection.

Let's hear from Nicola Lee, a director at Deloitte.

Nicholas spoke about practical actions and sustainability that any project professional can implement right away, regardless of seniority.

She suggested breaking down the project life cycle into 4 stages and highlighted low cost, low effort changes to the line with existing frameworks, while emphasising that influence can happen at any level.

So what can I do?

So what can you all do as project professionals?

All of this stuff is great.

If you're the executive sponsor or the lead programme manager, there's a lot you can do with what I've already been through.

But if you're not, there are still things, lower level coalface type of things that can be done by anybody regardless of where you sit.

And I like to think of it through this sort of sustainable project life cycle that, that we've developed and working through the, the kind of the actions that you can take through those four key lenses of, of the funding stage, running and managing, measuring and monitoring and the benefits realisation.

So the crux of it I think comes out here.

It's like, what can you actually do if you think of those four areas?

There's lots of different things.

The underpinning point, I think is that a lot of these changes are, are relatively small.

They're they're low cost and low effort, and they can be built into the existing change frameworks that you might be forced to work within as part of your organisation.

Some areas are stricter, you know, some, some firms and some industry sectors are less strict, but you will most likely be working within a framework that's designed by your organisation.

These adaptations can be made within that framework and be complementary to it, even if you don't have the power to actually adapt the entire framework itself from first principles.

In the funding section, you'll probably be reading some of those things and thinking, actually, there's not much I can do if you're not in direct control of some of these things.

If you're not the budget holder, for example, you can still be an influencer.

So have a conversation with the person who is a budget holder.

Ask a few good questions in meetings.

You know what, what actually are the funding sources for this project, which is particularly relevant to sort of the big capital projects that almost operate as an independent company in their own right.

How we're measuring the the carbon emissions of our programme.

A simple, you know, well men innocently placed question in the right year at the right time can really influence thinking.

And you might find that actually you are able to get your buyer to think about the funding in a different way.

And there are lots of examples in the other quadrants that you can use there as well.

So during the run and manage stage, you know, anyone could suggest if you're, if you're PMO support, you could suggest that it might be an idea to track the travel emissions of the project if that's not something that's already been thought about.

And in the benefits piece, it then comes full circle from funding.

So if you set out at the start what you're trying to achieve and a sustainability metrical KPI to measure that, then it becomes easier.

But even if not, when it's coming to the benefits assessment piece, particularly when you're going through a stage gate or, you know, post project assessment or a close out review, you can again ask a few good questions.

Well, what do we think was the impact on the well-being of our team?

Hopefully you'll be thinking to track that throughout the life cycle.

But even if not, have you had a look at the, you know, the average number of hours they had to work to, to get this thing over the line and the impact that might have had on them?

Have you had a look around what the impact is in the local community?

Are we using, you know, are we leaving anything behind for the local community from this or not to give you a couple of really sort of detailed practical examples that that you could actually go away, I think and implement tomorrow in your project.

If we look at status reporting, most project status reports that I've seen are talking about all the usual things, you know, are we, are we behind plan?

What's the cost looking like time we're reporting progress against milestones.

I don't see many if any that include any sustainability or even sustainability adjacent type of items on that.

So you know the average working hours per project person during that week or month, whatever the reporting period is, what were the the collective carbon emissions of the group in that period?

What's the trend analysis of that?

Is it going up or down is either anything we think we can or should be doing about that.

You can also consider the less obvious impact, I guess.

So if we think about decarbonization, the processes that you use and design, the, you know, the number of physical documents you produce, printing less so these days, I think, but the number of multiple versions of documents you might be storing, Do you have an on premise or a cloud based solution for that?

Again, you might not be able to make the choice between the two, but if you can, if there are multiple options, choose the one that's going to be, you know, the lower emission option.

Make your processes as efficient as they can be, which I think we all want to do anyway as part of our daily work.

And that also has a beneficial effect on the carbon footprint.

Our next highlight comes from Christina Mass, a project leader at Airbus.

She shared how to embed sustainability throughout the entire project life cycle, from concept to closure.

She talked about identifying the why behind sustainability early on, engaging stakeholders from the start, and integrating clear sustainability criteria into planning and procurement.

We mentioned earlier that sustainability in project management has to go from the concept phase all the way to the planning, the controlling and then handover enclosure, Very simple terms.

I mean, there's obviously different ways to look at those phases.

There's more or less, but that's, let's say, the top level way of looking at things.

So feel free to adapt that to your, you know, the methods that you're using within your companies in the concept phase.

That's really when you're starting to like, you know, that early engagement, the business case to re understand what we're doing with that, with the project, what value we're introducing.

So in that, for example, we've mentioned a few times I've already told you triple bottom line.

That's the main that's the most important bit, but it's really introducing that triple bottom line.

I'd like to point out as well, the second bullet point and it adds to why so why is sustainability important for you, for the project, for the sponsors.

So it's really trying to find that why and when you start looking at the why, actually it's quite helpful because that's an immediate way of introducing it and not really having to, you don't really have to explain we already, if you put the words into that, why are we doing this, then that's much easier to engage everyone.

The other really important bit, of course, is engaging the stakeholders.

So from the very beginning, from the very, very beginning, please engage your stakeholders and take them on that journey.

So that's on the concept phase.

When we look at the planning phase, we've defined why are we doing this, what is sustainability important to us and that, you know, triple bottom line.

Now it's up to the planning.

We all know how to build a project management plan.

It can be very, very extensive.

It can be very, very small.

We can look at planning, we can look at resources and risks, but it's really how do we integrate sustainability into that.

So I want to point out the first one, we mentioned this before.

That was the second point earlier methodology and tools.

The second point here is sustainability criteria.

So that's a really interesting way of really measuring that we're doing things properly with the criteria that we're assessing projects with.

So it's really that, for example, it says here inclusivity goals and energy efficiency targets.

So can we measure that and how do we measure that success in a project?

Basically not just looking at the financial side of things or not just looking at things that we know very well of scope, for example of quality.

You know, we've all got those metrics, but how do we define sustainability?

And then another element of here, which is sustainable procurement.

I don't want to give you many like huge examples, but really procurement is such an important bit in this whole, in this whole recipe.

So think about your supply and chain.

Think really how many suppliers do we have?

Can we assess them?

Can we see if for new suppliers we can assess their sustainability?

So it's really a big, big chunk for me.

We won't go through all of them, but the one that I really want to point out is sustainability risks and opportunities.

We've mentioned this before, but this is really when we start looking at the risk that we've got ahead of us.

You know, we know what the planning stage looks like.

So think beyond, think beyond the risk that you usually would think of impacting the schedule or or impacting your budget, but really think beyond, beyond that.

Again, in the last point, map and manage your stakeholders.

So don't forget about your stakeholders, stakeholders in the second phase of your project, the third phase of your project, we had the development and control.

So this is where we start actually doing the work.

You've planned it all, now let's get to it.

So this is the moment we're actually executing, monitoring, changing, controlling, reporting.

One of the big elements for me obviously is sustainable performance.

We've defined why you're doing it, how are you going to do it?

And now you're defining, OK, how are we measuring what we're what we've actually done.

So we're really meeting those sustainability targets that we had at the beginning.

Another good way of doing that is organising sustainability audits.

So they're just, there's some corporations that do that.

So try and see if that would make sense for your projects.

For example, if to organise a sustainability audit, that's another element that is important and this is where the reporting that we mentioned earlier is really critical.

So is there anything that you need to look at in your own projects to have that transparent reporting on sustainability?

I mentioned it again, but I've mentioned it before stakeholders again.

So really key to keep them engaged in this, in this phase.

And finally, we look at the very last bit, so the handover and you know the the final stage of our project at the closure.

First one, have we met the sustainability benefits that we had planned to do?

Have we, you know, things that we were looking to do, Have we measured them and have we successfully gotten those benefits?

So it's really understanding the measurable and achieved benefits that we've had on the sustainability side.

A good way, for example, a very good example is reduced emissions.

So it's easy to calculate.

We say we want to reduce emissions by 20%.

Have we done it, yes or no?

We also can look at sustainability documentation.

So is there anything that is in particular like manuals for seeable operation or anything that is a documentation that is in addition that is related to project that is additional to that, that can help in that handover stage.

So that's another important point.

One of my favourite points of that of this final, final stage is any residual risks and opportunities.

So we've mentioned about raising those risks, but are there any risks that are still remaining now that are sustainability risk or opportunities that you weren't able to tackle in your project that will be important for the future?

So it's really understanding those those residual risks to the at the very end of your project.

And of course, handover, there's always lessons learned.

I don't know about you and your projects, but every time surprises pop up.

So it's always about those lessons learned and how the future projects can learn from your lessons.

So really capture those lessons learned and think, is there anything on a sustainability side that that we would like to make sure we capture and you know, communicate further as a lesson learned.

So it's a really important point there again and finally again, we've talked about this again, but stakeholders.

So don't forget about your stakeholders.

Also in the handover phase, there's the the very, very end of your projects.

You want to make sure that you are, you know, communicated and this is what we have achieved and also communicating for future projects and stakeholders, this is what we could achieve in the future.

So it's really important to have everyone engaged in that sustainability journey.

Our final highlight is taken from a panel discussion chaired by Mark Helis of the Satellite Applications Catapult focus on the best methodologies for embedding sustainability practises.

We'll pick up the discussion with Narendra Daliwal explaining that both agile and waterfall project management methodologies have roles to play in embedding sustainability.

She advocated for a hybrid approach, highlighting agile strengths and enabling early testing, feedback and faster achievement of sustainability goals.

I think it's really important to recognise that Agile is here.

It's not going away.

People might think that it's kind of disappearing.

It's not, and we need to understand why organisations choose to incorporate agile ways of working within their waterfall environment.

It's not one or the other.

You can use the two together quite happily and we need to recognise that when people are choosing to use an agile approach, it's normally because they want to try something out, test it out, get the feedback as early as possible and then pivot if necessary or if it's working further, develop it.

The idea is the sooner I can get something out the door, the sooner I can benefit from it.

So if it means that some of these sustainability goals can be achieved earlier, why are we not doing that?

Why are we not using Agile to help us do that?

And this goes back to what I said.

If we don't plan it properly, if it's not part of the initial conversation and we don't set ourselves those goals and those objectives and we're not communicating with our stakeholders, we're not going to do it.

It's not going to get achieved.

And it's at that point when you think about and you ask the right questions of why, how soon can I achieve this goal?

Could I use an agile approach to actually reduce my, I don't know, net 0 carbon footprint sooner rather than later?

What could we do differently?

And it may have a huge impact on how you end up delivering that project.

So I think it's really important to have that conversation at the beginning and don't feel it's got to be one or the other because there's going to be parts of your projects where Agile's not going to be suitable, but there are going to be other parts of your project where you can absolutely use it, and then you should.

So I think some of the messaging I'm hearing there is around how we are open and responsive and adaptive during our project delivery and not being fixed to to 111 approach or methodology throughout it's duration.

We definitely need to be more adaptable, and that's what agile is, you know, being flexible, being able to move in different directions.

And I definitely wholeheartedly recommend that.

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