Well, good afternoon, David.

It's late in the day for.

Us, it is.

This is a naked free, naked drink.

But we have a gem of a guest because he has a series of Gems is his latest anthology.

He has an expanded edition of Gems and then coming out in a few weeks.

I think hidden Gems, a lot of Gems.

Yeah, it's nice.

What was the Adam Sandler movie?

What do you mean the.

Adam Sandler movie where he played a uncut Gems?

Oh?

Thank you, yes, but no, it's interesting you I remember I did not get to see Josh and Sweeney Todd.

You did, I did.

We can talk about that.

It was amazing and he's just one of the great voices of our time.

I think, yes, and I think he's playing to not sit here and have you doneigrate his voice with your silly uncut Gems jokes?

Now, the funny thing about not denigrating his voices.

I want to discuss a foo.

I think early on he might have had the to some people who use too good a voice that there is a kind of voice that our parents grew up loving that isn't necessarily to the rock and roll generation.

The first kind of voice you love, but I think he has one of the great instruments.

He seems to be able to sing anything.

Yes, and that's annoying.

Yes, let's talk about how annoying you is.

Okay, ladies and gentlemen, Josh Grovin.

Let's build the beans to the fat, food for thought, jokes on taip, talking with our mouthsfull, having fun, the beas cake, humble pie, serving a slass, lovely, the dressing all the side, it's naked.

Lush.

Clothing.

Option to tree, the imposse upon tree, to.

Find the hungry, four.

To bear.

With, umpable songple.

To run.

You obviously have one of the great instruments, your voice in the world, I will say.

One of my other favorite singers of all time, and the guy you might have heard of, Sinatra, I was.

I remember one of his last gigs ever.

I took my in laws.

I think it was one of the first times I met them, and later that night and it was this was down, you know, he was like he the show was down, like an hour out of la And then about two in the morning, I got a call from someone on the Sinatra camp saying he's in Westwood eating and drinking.

If you want to come out, And he went and he was hitting it hard, apparently at one of his last shows.

And I thought, now he's not working, he's not keeping that instrument, you know, but it worked for him.

It worked, Okay.

Crazy thing, I don't know.

We on and we started, Yes, we were rolling as you.

I love that.

Yes.

The crazy thing about singing is that you realize that, you know, when you're when you're a student and you're starting out, you're so hyper focused on the physical and the technical, and am I doing the right things?

Am I stretching it the right way?

Am I drinking the right teas?

As you get older, you start to realize that there is just as much emotionally and neurologically that it is connected to your instrument.

I can't put it away and polish it and put in a case and then go out and have fun.

But sometimes you just need what you need for your brain to say that it's okay to connect with this, and even if it's not the right thing, uh, sometimes it's what you need.

So not just sometimes needed that jack and coke or just diet.

Sometimes I need sometimes even though I know I might burp on stage, my brain is telling me.

You need a soda, Have a soda, have some sugar, have a burger, have something like and emotional.

It's emotional.

It's an emotional connected and it's all.

And then I know, why why am I singing better at rehearsal?

Because whatever I wanted its right?

And I felt great, and I and I and I sang my ass off.

And then I went out and I had my tea and my warm water and my lemon.

Why am I so tight?

Because I'm tense?

You know?

So I think that that's something I talked to you know, young singers about too, is that you obviously don't want to set yourself up for failure.

But but we're we're a vessel.

And sometimes when you get this right, everything else, everything else follows.

Starting off with a great lesson, Josh, we already learned on that note, ye, Speaking speaking of young singers, you to me will always be a young sing You're a voice singer still to me.

The beard because I'm just gra yeah exactly.

Having worked this will be my twenty fifth year on the Grammys.

I did not work long enough that I was not there the day you as a is it a sixteen year old?

Yeah?

I was sixteen.

That was the Grammys.

Is where I kind of started, was that rehearsal I was till that story.

Sure, I was in high school and the Los Angeles I was at the Los Angeles County High School for actually this was before this pre dates well actually, let me think about this.

Where was I Yeah, it was it was actually Los Angeleant High School for the art.

You're not going to contradict me.

You've done your research.

I would never doubt.

And I had met David Foster, record producer, legendary record producer and the person who first discovered me because he he long story short, I grew up in Hancock Park, not too far away from here, and uh.

Off the neck of the woods exactly.

Yeah, mean street.

My parents got in there and you know, eighty four.

But yeah, I was working with a voice teacher who was the dad.

My parents are not in the business.

But I went to elementary school with a kid named Seth Riggs, whose dad Matt Riggs, whose dad Seth Riggs was a vocal coach for this one of them, the one of the you taught Michael Jackson and Jan Jackson and Stevie Wonder.

Pavarotti, a lot of different people, and so I went over as a boy scout was taking lessons.

I was a neighbor.

He said, come over, I'll give you discounted lessons.

One fateful day, David Foster called him and said, I somebody's pulled out of an event I'm doing.

Who have you got, who's young, who's free?

Who will come and sing?

It was Phanom of the Opera for remember Governor Gray Davis all those years ago.

It was a big concert for him, and I filled in and I did that that went well.

I had no idea that he was looking at me for other things.

And then three weeks later he said, hey, I'm at the Grammys.

I with Selene.

I've written the song called the Prayer that's nominated.

And Andrea Bucelli is stuck in Germany, and hey, you were great at that thing.

Will you come and uh and sing?

And I've told the story a lot, but it's just as I am now entering my twenty fifth year in the business.

I always look back at it as this crazy aligning of stars because I turned it down.

I said, David, Andrea is a tenor and I'm a baritone, and I I just I don't think I'm the right guy for the job.

I did not have stars in my eyes.

I was not viewing this as like David, this is my big break.

I was a theater kid.

I wanted to do theater.

I had my eyes set on going to Carnegie Mellon Theater School.

And he called me back and said, I just I don't think you heard me.

Get your ass to the Shrine auditorium.

I'll see at three o'clock.

And uh, you know, we're faxing you over the lyric.

Now it's an Italian.

Have you ever sung an Italian?

Only in my singing?

Great, see you there.

And so you know, I just show up with my dad and just got hey, I'm here to sing my houtraage with my dad.

Nope on the show, well, on the for the rehearsal.

Just well exactly so you know, and Andrea Bocelli had just broken out on the scene as the as the guy, and he continues to be the guy.

But so the bodyguards are looking at me like, where's sorry you're here to sing with I'm going like, you know, Selene Dion and so they have because you know, but the whole thing was just so insane when you think about this pre internet, you know, pre TikTok time where it's just you know, first of all, the fact that the Grammys were over at the Shrine is so funny to me.

It might as well be at so Fuh Stadium.

I think that was the last year.

Yeah, I think it was then full of read intimate, intimate, you know concert, you know, and Madonna's sitting out there, and Steven Tyler's backstage, and Rosie O'Donnell was the host, and just such an interesting time.

And I'm on stage and I'm standing up there for fifteen minutes and they're kind of going, all right, where's this singer guy that's gonna sing with Selene.

I'm going, no, that's me, you all right, whatever, here's the music, and Selene comes out, and it's just she had the true entourage.

She had ten people and and her her late husband, Renee was out there with her.

But can we say I've dealt with every singer over the years, because of course this is my weird life.

Of course, I will say anybody who loves Selene Dionne and I know you had this certain piling kind of experience.

Her voice is unbelievable, her heart, she might be true the most like and not just to the writer, like to everybody backstage.

She is one of the most warm and polite and sweet people you ever could meet.

She is doing it the right way when nobody is looking.

She is she is the real deal.

And you know, there's I've certainly met, as I'm sure you have too, a number of people where it's just very different once the lights are off and the doors are closed.

Selene is that person.

And truly, my own personal experience with her has was was my first you know, appreciation of that, because she could have been you know, I'm rude at worst or dismissive at best with a kid, a sixteen year old kid who's just there with David, who's there to fill and for her actual duet partner.

And keep in mind, you also know because this is her precious sound check time, right, so she also has a huge She's about to sing this song for millions, and this is her fifteen minutes on stage to get her sound right and to make sure her stuff is right and her blocking and all that.

So I was a nobody and the fact that she gauged that, oh, David's doing something for this kid.

This is a moment for him, and she knew it even before I knew it to me.

I'm going, oh man, this is, this is high, this is I just want to I just want to do my best and I just want to make sure and oh my god, that's Selene Dion.

Wow.

Okay, and I just what I wanted to do my job.

I didn't think it was going to lead to anything else.

I just knew in that moment I had to sing this song as well as I could.

Selene knew.

Had you memorized it?

No, because I'd gotten the sheet music about three hours prior, and so you're reading it.

I have a printed out the facts that he sent me to my to my parents' house, was crumpled up in my hand.

Shaking your sweaty hand, my sweaty hand.

And I'm guessing she knows the soul.

She knows it.

Of course she knows it.

And it was probably also on a prompter, but I had no experience with things like prompters, so I still was clutching it in my hand, and you know, and.

So so you can't look at her when you're singing.

I am I'm kind of looking at her, and I'm doing this and she could see that I was, you know, visibly like just kind of you know, like an alien.

I just she knew that I had no experience that I had.

I didn't know what I was doing, but I was, But I was.

I was really ignorance is bliss because I was singing my face off.

I mean, I was really going for it.

But she saw that I was nervous, so she took my hand and she's like, let's go to the front of the stage.

And you know, she really with duets, you can really feel when the person is with you.

And that was a situation where she had every right to be a solo artist in that moment.

She had her job to do when I was a fill in, sure, and she could have technically been doing a duet with me, but she could have just been focused in her own universe.

A lot of other artists at that stature probably definitely would have done this, would have done that.

And she took her time up there to make sure that I was comfortable that her hand was in mine.

How are you doing, David, Oh my god, he's so good.

You know, tell me about your story.

How old are you?

And she made it so comfortable for me and you know, as far as she knew, that was the last she would ever see me.

And she didn't have to be that way.

No cameras were on and she was.

And so yeah, that meant the world to me.

It gave me something that I could kind of a feather that I could put in my cap and feel really great about the day.

I didn't expect anything to come from it, either, but I at least walked out of there feeling like one of my heroes was as nice as she could be and that I did a really I did a good job.

Well, the story I heard was that you did such a good job.

I don't know how true this is, but Bocelli was on the fence about he was a little ill or whatever about getting on the plane, and maybe you were good enough to get him on the next flight so that he didn't lose his gig.

Kener Aleck said, by a suit, And I said, I'm sorry, sir, Like, what do you what do you mean?

He goes, we're about fifty to fifty of Andrea showing up tomorrow, so if you if you have a suit you can get, you might want to get that.

And I'm going I honestly you know, I was dreading that possibility because I was still super green.

I mean, I was fine to get through that rehearsal, but I wasn't ready.

I wasn't ready in any way, shape or form.

I wasn't polished.

I wasn't I was coming out of eleventh grade.

I did not have at that point what it took, I think to be on a to be on a televised broadcast.

Luckily, Andrea showed up.

I got to meet him.

He was very nice, but but it.

Was ten years later he did return.

I think I wasn't call me yeah.

Yeah, and said we're doing a tribute to Luciana Paparatti, who just passed away.

I remember all those years ago when you came to the Grammys to sing with Andrea, and we'd love for you and Andrea to sing the prayer on the telecast in honor of Luciana, who was a friend of Andrea's.

And that was the most full circle moment to sing that song on the actual Grammys with the guy that I stood in for.

You know, fantastic story.

It was amazing.

And did you stay in touch with Selene?

I have stayed in touch with Selene effect she asked me to open for her in Hyde Park right before the lockdown five years ago, and so I got to I got to sing there and and she's she's just continued to be such an inspiration and did you ever sing with her again?

We sang and then we sang the prayer together on CBS I think another thing Ken was producing, possibly where she had a CBS special and she asked me to come and sing it with her there.

So so since then I've sung it with her and with Andrea on television, and uh, this is great.

You'll sing it with anybody.

I will sing.

Yeah, there is a lie from a.

Shining down to the uusy flown song, the.

Ringing again.

It's so interesting though, when I think about eleventh or twelfth grade not feeling ready, and Powers was talking I think on NPR about how the difference in generations of readiness and how having not grown up with a phone in my hand, with social media with a filter, you know that there is a whole generation of when you look at Sabrina Carpenter and Benson Boone and Somber and all these kind of young artists leave who are so savvy they come out of the gate so polished and ready, and and they had and and I'm jealous because I'm learning so many new tricks at forty four.

And there's a there's a whole generation of artists that that grew up from the moment they were children with the idea of what's the angle, what's the what's the content I have to make for TikTok and.

Ten thousand hours selfie.

They've done their ten thousand hours of content creation before they got signed to their record deal.

And so there's there's a generation of artists that are so just ready for this from the moment they go out there.

And I I needed time, you know, I was not ready, and and I think that in hindsight, I'm glad that I took more time.

I'm glad that I was unpolished and and needed to be a student for a little while.

But yes, it was definitely a.

Difil Actually, you have your new this compilation which this there's so many versions of This is Josh Grobin gems.

There is expanded gems.

Soon there will be hidden gems.

That's right.

And we're not doing the Taylors with vinyl thing, but but we're making as many coasters.

As we can, and you were talking about cut gems.

Yeah, that'll be all your duets with Adam Sandler comedy songs.

But you've dueted with so many fantastic people.

I've been so lucky.

I just I went down a rabbit hole of your YouTube videos and a great one that i'd forgotten was your Tony's opening with Sarah.

Oh.

Yeah, it was so fun.

It was great.

That was Sarah and I both share Sarah Burrow.

Sarah Burrows and I both share having gone into the music industry around the same time, but also having been enthralled by the theatrical world and by the theater community, and having always had a dream in our heads too.

For me it was to perform on Broadway.

For her, I think it was more to write.

But she's also a brilliant performance.

I think you should have been the leading waitress.

Oh, as the waitress or as the doctor either way.

By the way, that would be a great pairing on Broadway.

You two maybe one day.

Look, Sarah and I've always said, at some point, she and I doing something together on Broadway, let me a dream.

It's just about finding the right thing.

It would be.

But yeah, doctor Pearlmotter.

I think it is.

That's a great role.

I would have loved to have done that at some point.

But but so so, when we were asked to host the Tonys, we kind of decided very early not to be, not to try and be cool with it.

You know, there's the edgy pointing people out in the audience and kind of ribbing them and kind of being too cool.

We just kind of said, let's just be Let's be the theater nerds.

Theater nerds we are.

And then, by the way, like, have you ever won anything?

No?

Have you ever wont anything?

No, let's write a song for the losers.

So you guys wrote we wrote that.

Yeah, so we decided to write a song about all the people that are not going to hear their names, of which she and I are are are very very accustomed.

Let's let's play.

Let's play a little clip.

Of that, because you know, neither.

One of us has ever won anything.

That can't be right, Sarah, No, you know Grammys for you really?

No, no, nothing, nothing, you know, and I'm shocked for you.

Yeah, well you know it is what it is.

Anyway, So I have to say, Phil not only got to see you in Sweeney Todd on Broadway.

I think you Phil invested in you on bad right.

Yes, I did know that, yes.

And I will confess I wanted to but during like my wife for her birthday, we went to New York when you were there, I think, and I think I saw merrily we roll along instead.

Okay, I hope you'll forgive me also a great decision, and I will say, but it made me wonder.

Somen teime.

I think you actually got to meet Stephen.

So we were talking about how we have very we both love.

We meet at Bruce Springsteen, but Phil has more of a theatrical love and y.

But I will say Sondheim is one of my favorite two or three songwriters of all time.

What was your What does he mean to you?

In your sort of musical education?

The music of Stephen Sondheim is what got me interested in music full stop.

It was the nineteen eighty one PBS airing of Sunday in the Park with George Randy Patinkin and Bernette Peters that I saw when I must have been ten, you know, and that's hetty for a ten year old.

I didn't really understand the themes, but I understood that intangible thing that was just that his chords were making me feel all the feelings, and also there were lyrics that I still understood kind of the essence of what the story was.

I didn't know anything about that history of visual art.

I didn't know anything about George Sorott.

And what was so interesting about Sondheim was that he would use these very kind of fringe subjects a French, pointless painter, a penny dreadful character about a barber, you know, and but he would use I always joke that his elevator pitches must have been terrible, because because the stories he chooses are kind of like, oh, good luck with that, okay, But he uses those those fringy themes to write about all of us, all the all the things that humans do and go through.

He finds the connection.

Find is a connection, and as long as he finds.

In the time that I got to know him, we talked pretty extensively about process and about you know.

I asked him, do you ever write just in snacks?

Do you ever write just songs?

Do you ever?

Do you ever?

Because coming from the pop music world, it's all about what can you get into those three and a half minutes and then you move on to the next three and a half minutes, and hopefully you have an arc across an album.

But when you're doing writing sessions, you're generally just writing about what you're feeling that that day.

And he said, no, if I don't have the entire arc of the story from beginning, middle and everything in between, I'm not going to start on song one.

And it doesn't interest me.

It doesn't interest me to start unless I know the finish, unless I know the whole story and how.

The song is going to propel right through the.

Store exactly exactly.

And so, for whatever reason, thank god, he found those stories that inspired him to go sit at the piano and then he'd write for all of us.

But it was that Sunday in the park that made me feel my my love for Sondheim began, and then my love for using music to tell stories began.

And that's when I started to look into all his other shows.

And that's when I eventually went and saw Sweeney Todd when I was, you know, twelve, and Merrily Roll Along when I was fifteen, and just on and on and on and on, and signed up for Interlock in Arts Camp because they were in Sweeney and I was, you know, so happy to be part of that.

And he did it in Camp.

I did it at Camp.

Yeahstel Oh, you know who played Sweeney.

Todd was a great composer now named Rob Rokiki and he he's written a bunch of different things and we've run into each other now on Broadway.

But yeah, Rob Robb.

One of the great fifteen year old Sweeney.

He was a great Well, we were all None of us had grava.

I mean, nobody has gramatas at that age.

I certainly didn't.

I mean I was I was a young fifteen year old trying to be Sweeney, and so you know, I remember putting on my scariest face and it was.

Just you had already done Teva, I believe.

I know.

Teva was a couple of years later at Loza that I had played.

I had first was Sweeney at Interlock, and I was in the ensemble, by the way, and I mean, one of the best ensembles you can be part of.

Those parts are just remarkable to sing.

Yea.

And then the next year I got to be purchack and fiddler on the roof at Interlock in great and then I went to Loza my first of two years at Loxa, where I got my first lead role.

I was Woody Mahoney in Finian's Rainbow.

Oh my goodness, and.

That was my first taste of Stardham was like, oh, my first lead role.

You know, they had to sponge a fake beard on me and it was so much fun and look at me now, but the full circleness of it has been remarkable.

I got a letter to stage door when I was doing my first Broadway show, Natasha Pierre in The Great Comment of eighteen twelve, which was kind of an obscure, brilliant kind of rock.

Did you ever tape that?

By the way, No, we had.

Our producer had an opportunity to, uh to tape it, and it didn't.

It didn't happen.

That's the thing.

Yeah, yeah, a little bit.

It was a It was a it was like a comment.

It was one of those things where for the year that it was on Broadway, it was doing great things for the community and for Broadway, and then it was just kind of some things got mishandled, and after I left it kind of fell apart.

And it's a much longer story, but but he Steven saw it and sent a letter to stage door for me and had heard my version of finishing the hat from Something in the Park on my PBS special that I'd done, and he wrote me a letter to say, man, you know, I really enjoyed that you can sure turn a phrase, and thank you for the blush inducing compliments because I've talked him up before I sang the song, and you know what, that was your tro to him, A lovely letter.

So my first intro to him, I was introduced to him by the late great Barbara Cook.

Early on.

I got to sing move On with her from Sundel Parco of George.

She's had a birthday concert for her at the Hollywood Bowl early in my career, and I met him briefly, but I was always terrified of him.

And I'll actually I'll tell you why I haven't told the story much because I've always kind of just we eventually became friends.

Naked lunch exclusive, well it kind of is a naked lunch exclusive a little bit, because Steve and I became friends and he gave the green light for me to play Sweeney before he passed away, which meant the world to me.

But before that and I was just a kid who just released a debut album.

I was interviewed by The New York Times about about my influences and talking much as I'm talking to you guys about how much Sondheim's music changed my life.

Now.

I had a publicist at the time who sent my debut album to Sondheim, and Sondheim wrote a letter back to the publicist saying thank you very much, you know, best wishes.

I really enjoyed it, whatever, you know.

And the publicist said, look at this.

Look see he heard your album.

And I'm going, oh my god, this is the greatest the greatest day for a nineteen year old kid.

I was just walking on air.

Then the New York Times interviews me about what are some he's been shot out of a cannon, what are some of the great moments you've had in your career, And I said, honestly, one of the greatest moments for me was that Sondheim he heard my music and and and was really you know, he wrote me a letter and just and you know, and I didn't overplay it.

I just said that was just just meant a lot.

And the New York Times, in their kind of byline wrote, you know, and he's got the ear of Stephen Sondheim or something like that.

You know.

And so Sondheim wrote a letter to the Times saying, wait a minute.

I wrote a letter to support a young artist, as I always do.

But I was not giving him my seal of approval or I was not like endorsing this artist or whatever in which they printed oh and my heart and and and you know, this is not anything against him, because no.

But it's a bit of an overcorrection.

In my opinion.

It was a bit of an over correction.

I never brought it up to him, by the way, you know, because I happened to him.

He was a prolific letter writer.

He after he passed away so many artists, young performer students.

There's a there's an instagram about the song time letters that that he was at his typewriter as much as he was at his piano, and and so the idea that he could correct and it was just another probably just another afternoon for him.

Uh.

And I had not met him at that point, so it was not you know, and I don't think he I don't think he meant it because he's so supported, he was so supportive of young artists.

I don't think he meant it to be offensive.

More about the time, the times, Hey, the times they don't hey, you know, better stop writing exactly exactly right, That's exactly what he was basically trying to say.

But to me, it was it was, you know, and so I I was from that point because you know, I'm not water off of ducks back with criticism things like that, I'm sensitive.

It was yeah, yeah, I can't turn it off.

And I was.

I was a young and I was a young eighteen nineteen.

I was not I was not coming out of ten years of TikTok andy one how to handle an audience.

These things got to me, and so I just kind of all and then from that moment, I was like, oh, whoa man, I have to be very careful about this hero of mine.

I have to always I have to love his music.

I will, you know, every time I got asked by someone like Barbara Cook to sing for him, it's my pleasure.

Of course I'd be honored, but I was very scared to then like be in the room with him or shake his hand or I just kind of I skirted around it.

I sang for him once at the met didn't meet him.

I sang for him at the Bowl and that was the first time when I sang with Barbara Cook when he came backstage and I said, mister son him, it was just such an honor to sing for you.

And that's when I got to call me Steve and the hug and the whole and that whole thing.

But even then, many many years passed after that, I didn't hear from him, and I thought, you know, maybe this is just one of those things where he's always be somebody that I is a hero of mine.

But I'm not ever gonna We're not gonna be buds, you know, and I'm not going to get that full validation that you always crave.

Knows a lot of people, knows a lot of people.

And so that letter to stage door saying all those things and then kind of saying, oh, and welcome to Broadway.

H you know, Steven Joshua signed Stephen Joshua Sondheim, you know, because that was his middle name, was Joshua.

And he said I and then and then in Penn wrote wrote, I was called Joshua until I was five or whatever, you know, So I just couldn't believe that, and I asked.

I told my my dear friend Jason Egan, who's a great producer on Broadway, thank you for connecting him with my you know, with my stage door and all that.

And and then he and then and then Sondheim said, and if you ever between shows, come over for a tea.

Oh you know, come, I loved love to I'd love to have lemonade with you and chat chat about the show.

And so I did.

I never got to make up quicker than that moment.

And I ran over to Turtle Bay and had a two hour, two and a half hour hang with him in his apartment and talked about That's when I got to talk to him about writing and talking about my history and his history, got to ask him questions, and got to really express to him face to face what he meant to me, and none of that other shit.

I don't know if he even remembers that he wrote it didn't exist.

If he did, maybe he was again over correcting again to be nice, you know, but but it meant the world to me.

And then we ended the hang with him saying, and I'm not telling you when I'm going to see the show.

And I said, thank you.

Thank you so much.

And then of course at the intermission of Great Comment, one of those nights, all the you know, the whole cast text read alert, read alert.

The King is in the house.

You know, he's in the house.

He's as all three you know, right on the side.

But well, he writes young people letters because he knows it's going to mean something to him, because he got to live that life himself with his neighbor.

Exactly right, Oscar Hammerston for Hammerstein, and so education and the support of students and especially those that have appreciated his work and want to interpret his work is something that meant the world to him.

Having that communication with him, connection with somebody, that was the reason for my wanting to spark going out on stage to begin with.

It's the luckiest, the luckiest connection I've ever did have in my life.

Tell us a couple of surprise things that.

You didn't expect from him, Well, I mean not surprised to learn.

I think I was surprised.

One of the things I was surprised to learn was that he really cared and was intimately involved in really anywhere that was doing one of his works.

He I remember were when we were hanging out.

He said, well, I'm going to Moscow in a in a in a couple of weeks because they're thinking of putting on a you know.

I forgot what it was, a Sweeny Tod or something in Moscow, and I'm I'm curious to know what they're going to do with it, you know, And I'm thinking, God, if i'm him, how many licensed productions of If You're one of the greats our hundreds are done every year?

So he must have thought, well, that one sounds interesting, it sounds interesting.

That one sounds interesting.

He said, Oh, and I just saw one in England that was done in a pie shop and they did it with you know, and that wound up transferring to Off Broadway at which I saw was incredible.

But he was so he goes, oh, I just loved what they did it.

They just it was just three musicians, and I went and I saw it, and I'm thinking, can you imagine if you're doing a production Sweeney Todd in a pie shop or got room for about fifty people, and one of those fifty people is it's forty nine strangers and Sondheim.

But he's a theater guy.

He knows it was cool.

To do, it was cool to do, and he was just absolutely tickled Pink forty years later by by every by the productions that were being done interpreting his work.

He was interested by the way twenty I just as an example, like Celean of where he could be, he could have great kindness, and he did to a friend of mine from college, who Phil and I.

We used to do the upfront.

Do you remember he used to do the upfront for CBS.

And I would run into this college friend who was an aday wrote in the ad trade of TV.

So he was, but he was an own college friend.

And then I found out he was very ill, and I called him and he told me a story that his hero was Stephen Sondheim and he was dying.

And I think a relative or someone got a note to Stephen Sondheim saying, listen, the thing he most wants in his life is to have tea with Stephen Sondheim and just talk about ask his questions.

Stephen Sondheim found two or three hours and sat with this guy before he died and gave him a thrill that you know, I can't believe what a meaningful, beautiful thing that And that was not publicized or anything.

And I think that sometime a chess player was a chess I think he played chess with him in puzzle hours and I think, what an amazing thing to that.

And I'm sure that there are countless stories.

I got one.

We support the Ardent Theater.

My wife's very oh yeah, right uh.

And he loved the Ardent Theater.

And the Ardent Theater was going to do an evening honoring him, and he said he would come.

And he comes, and the electricity goes out in the theater and they hold that this is before the curtain even goes up.

And they go to the shop where they build the sets, and they get saw horses and wooden planks and they put on the show in the shop man for him.

But he loved it.

He was in the backstage shop and that, of course, that's what theater is, and he knows it, and it meant even more.

And he got up and made a speech at the end.

Wonderful and it was just magical.

You know, that is so cool.

Sometimes mistakes are the best thing.

That absolutely right.

And I'm grateful that at the end of his life, you know, he really stuck the landing.

He had so many works that were revived at that moment.

Yes, there were so many on Broadway, off and beyond.

There was a resurgence of revivals of his work, done in all kinds of interesting ways.

And you know he I think he passed.

He passed away in Connecticut at his home in connecticuts, just after a huge dinner party with tons of his friends, knowing that he was so loved and that his work was so cherished.

No one comes close.

Really.

I just found out that Phil sang my favorite Sonheim song on stage.

I can't believe you're saying this.

What did you say?

He sang being Alive in College?

Terrible?

Terrible?

It was terrible.

I'm so embarrassed that he said, Phil singing somebody.

He hold me too close?

I can't.

I cracked my first note.

You can, Josh Grob, I uh, you know I it was.

It was.

I did the comedy songs inside by side pretty well, but then they had the idiotic idea to have me.

I guess they didn't have anyone else.

Yeah, I had to sing that song.

We would do a great pretty women.

I bet have you ever done Turpin and Judge Turpin?

Yes?

I love it?

Oh good?

I love it.

I was at a song in all.

The musicals in high school and in college.

Yes, but but the comic lead, not the my.

Friend Danny Kindler, the comedian, has this great line, I don't have to sing that well because I'm the neighbour's wife.

He wrote those, I mean, he wrote some of the funniest character songs.

Oh, the character songs.

I mean, you're you're co star in Sweeney Todd O, my god, anyone who plays that role has the funniest, greatest, absolute, most charming counterpoint.

To you deep, dark, hundred crazy man.

And one of the things we knew going into Sweeney was that we knew Sondheim wanted it to be funny as hell, that he really wanted Sweeney to be as funny, if not more so, than it was dark.

He always viewed Sweeney Todd as a dark comedy.

Absolutely.

And did you ever get to see Angela Ansbury?

Were you too young?

I was too young, but I've seen.

I watched the uh oh, yeah, there's a George George and listened to the Len Carry version.

Yes, you know, over and over?

Don't you think the albums?

Yeah?

I mean you're you understand music production for albums.

They're perfect works of art onto themselves.

They are the album.

You can close your eyes and you can see it.

It's almost better than seeing it right because they they are fully blown versions, and of course the orchestration is lusher on the record, incredible and you can hear it intimately.

And you know, when I was a kid, I thought they were just recording them on stage doing the shows.

Of course I wasn't thinking to myself, but I'm listening to the you know those recordings that.

They're on a mic and they're acting on mike.

You know, I'm imagining the fog and the lights and the and they put it and I'm thinking that just enough dialogue, the story going.

And I'm thinking, oh, they must have muted out the audience because I'm sure there was appause at the end, but there was just they must have muted that out.

But that's what makes them so repeat listenable too.

We felt that responsibility making this this Sweeney Todd soundtrack because it was the first time since nineteen eighty that Broadway had done it with the full with the full Jonathan Tunic orchestration.

I could we couldn't believe it either that like it had only been done deconstructed since that, since that stage, and that was great, All of them were wonderful, but it hadn't been done with the with the grandiose orchestration since nineteen seventy nine, nineteen eighty.

So we felt with an Alex Lockamore, who's who's brilliant?

We felt like a real responsibility to that thing that you're talking about, which is that to the new musical theater students.

Yes, we wanted to be a Sweeney Todd album that they could close their eyes and listen to the way that I did for that early.

Did anyone tell you that you guys were in a perfect size theater for the show, whereas the original which I saw.

Was not where where was the original was at the Gershwood at the Girsh which was a giant barn of a theater also is always considered a kind of a barn.

It's a big theater, but.

It's not as big as that, And so the pie shop barbershop thing was dwarfed by the stage right, And so in that instant, I can honestly say as great as her performance was Angelina's Bury and that.

Original, yeah, the record is better.

It got lost in the in the venue.

Yes, we were originally going to be at the Saint James and then that got pulled from us for what was the what was the one?

Was it New York?

New York went in there, and so when we got the lunch, we were you know, of course beautiful theater, but it had also always kind of been a daunting sized theater for us.

You know, it's a little bit bigger than we were hoping to have, but it wound up working beautifully for the grandness of what we did up there and and Mimi lyn set and everything.

It's just kind of it's a beautiful theater, interesting girls on the walls.

We can move off of get back to your gens.

But one more song time, one more son time question.

Sure is fun to talk about in your I always think of the great singers like el Fitzgerald who did maybe in my head in late middle age.

She did these records of dedicated to a certain songwriter going through and I wonder, would you ever do a son time?

You know, a series of songs that you know once you're not like by the way I love there's I think the greatest sort of pop songs.

The two New songs on gems are just great.

But when you're no longer can fool anyone when you're sixty, Would you ever want other songwriters you would like to go and do an album of their songs in that tradition?

Oh, I could make ten of those I I and and would would love to I somehim of course, being at the top of the list of just wanting to focus on interpreting his work on an album is something that I'd love to do.

I made a musical theater album, which was the thing that that wound up being the domino effect actually going and doing Broadway after that.

But uh, and and that's where I started to record sometimes music.

I think there were two songs on there represented But but yeah, no, I would, I would.

I would absolutely love any other songwriters who you would dream of getting to do that with.

Oh goodness, I mean, we'd love to do a Bernstein album.

I would love to do a Rogers and Heart album.

Jerome Kern.

There's did you ever see Bernstein conducts West Side Story?

That PBS special isn't incredible?

Incredible?

Yeah?

It was?

And and the and there's all another one.

I don't know if it's a different one.

With Josey Carreras and and Carrie to Conawa.

Have you seen that documentary that's the one that's the one about Oh yeah, Carreras.

I'll never stop saying Carreras throw throwing his baton down and the poor guy, I mean, English is the second language I know.

And he stumbled on the words.

Yeah, I know, I know.

But his voice was perfect.

There's nothing like that in opera, you know, there's so hard.

Yeah Bernstein, excuse me, I said, Burnstein and uh and uh yeah, no, it's a it's a it's a you know, just the some of the most remarkable, remarkable melodies of all time are Bernstein's's just Sonheim lyrics and so and many of them sonhim lyrics.

Yeah, exactly, So, yeah, it would be you know, it would be uh a thrilled.

And also so many of the great arrangers from back then too, you know, working with Tunic's original stuff on.

When I did the Sunday in the Park with George So, I worked with him and that was incredible.

But then you know, I go back and I listened.

Also, I've been listening to a lot of mil Tourmet and I've been listening to a lot of his recordings too, and his legron stuff and wind mills of my mind, you know that kind of stuff, and and so many of those style songs I think would be a lot of fun to sing as well.

Uh.

He did a pretty good Christmas tune I remember, and You was one of the biggest Christmas records of all time, which we got my favorite Jews called Nol but it was Noel, I believe, that's right.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

Well, I mean my my father's side of the family is Jewish, so it's a I go half and half on it.

But uh, yeah, that was a that was a fun experience.

And uh, you know, I just tried to sing a lot of songs that I grew up with, and but that that that one of his is my favorite of all the Christmas songs, the Christmas song great.

You raise me up.

All I can stand on mountains, You raise me up to come stormy.

See I am strong when I am on your should.

And on this Gems record, the two new tracks, be all Right is just one of my favorite.

I think it's because again, you sing arguably too well for a lot of current pop music, you know, and be all Right is like an example I'd like to hear a little bit of that right now, because I think we're gonna play a little bit of be all right.

See comes gonna be Anna be right?

What scenes you don't happen?

It's gonna be right, It's gonna be bom right.

You know you this is a great song.

Can you tell me?

I think you wrote it with one of Bruno Mars's key little songwriting.

Team, Phil Lawrence.

What was that?

What was that experience?

Like?

Oh, it was great?

It was It was one of the one of the first writing sessions I did kind of after things started to open up after COVID.

And you know, sometimes you you you write the thing you need to hear before you feel it.

And that was a song.

And I've said it on stage that I was not feeling at that time that things were gonna be all right.

I was.

I was not.

I was in a bit of a depressive place.

I just lost my dog.

I was in a weird relationship that COVID was just all around us, and you know, we all just kind of felt like we lost ourselves, which, by the.

Way, and now you feel all right, No, that's the thing exactly, No, Phil, exactly, because you know.

Uh, it's one of those songs that I said to myself, you know when I sing it, I feel better When I sing it, I'm able to It's like, you know, it's like that book ten percent happier.

You know, if I can just get if I can just get enough, that'll be that'll be good for me.

And so I shelved it for the longest time because I'm thinking, if I just keep waiting for a time when I believe it one hundred percent, I'm never going to release it.

I need it for my own little whatever little serotonin is hanging on by a thread, it's it needs food, and this song is food for for that.

And so I thought, you know what, no time like a moment when I need it really more than ever, and the world needs it.

I don't know who's going to listen to it.

I don't know who might get a little bit of comfort from it, but people.

But I said, you know what, let's let's release a song that is that a little bit of that bump when when I needed to.

When you put together, I think we might try to get this out right before your Hollywood Bowl performance, which is the fifth and fifth and sixth of September right, and I have to figure I'm going to try to go.

I have Oasis tickets one night, so I have to figure out if I can If I can do both, sure, I will do it and both.

My brother and I had a contentious but brilliant musical partnership.

You do have a brilliant brother.

I have a brilliant brother, but we're not contentious.

Unfortunately, there's no drop still on each other.

I know there is still time.

Well, actually we have the same birthday four years apart, so it was it was pretty It was pretty dicey when I was expecting a birthday party and had to go to the hospital instead on my fourth birthday.

Annoying of your parents to really.

Ann say anything about having a little brother.

Yeah, we can talk.

If you've seen somebody feed Phil Phil's show, Yes, there's there's been.

A history there.

I love that.

Well, you get it.

The question was when you're putting together a set for like the Hollywood Bowl was I think you've it.

It's like a home home field for you.

But when you put together a set list, what goes into how you shape a set list?

Because you have again just sort of like to me, I don't know it is be all right in the set list.

I would think emotionally you need yes, tempo and all that.

Sure, what what how do you construct what you're going to do?

That's a great question, because you know, if I'm going on a tour and I know that for the most part the venues are going to be pretty similar, then really you're crafting the night however you want it.

You're bringing your own gear, you're setting up your own stage, and so you can kind of craft your own world.

You're inviting people into your home every night when you go into a place like the Hollywood Bowl or even previously, I just did a week at the Coliseum in Vegas, and that is a place that that you are stepping into its history and its walls, and it is it is your duet partner.

The venue is part of your performance because it's that iconic the Hollywood Bowl, of course, and with and with another great film, the La film almost as good.

Yeah, you know, truly.

Uh somebody feed that film?

Yeah, I think they get pizza.

And but.

We spent a long time trying to think about what the right songs would be for that night, because not only does it need to represent just like you say you need temple, you need arc you need things that move the setlist along.

But you've also got, you know, a huge orchestra, which is in my experience, even on the best day with the best orchestra, which they are, that's a big ship to steer behind you.

It's not just as quick as pointing to your guitarist and moving left and move and right.

You don't need to improvise.

It's not a lot of improvising.

You're really and Thomas Wilkins are brilliant conductors, is going to do an amazing job.

But I also wanted to think about what songs would work best with them to flow together.

So there are a lot of songs that are more symphonic because it's already written.

It's written in a way that the orchestra can understand, and I don't want to push the orchestra to, you know, to have to swing too much into the pop direction.

There will of course be some pop songs in there that I've done and be all right, will be in there.

But but you know, you got a lot of musical theater.

There's some musical theater.

There's some film songs that I've wanted to do for the longest time.

We're gonna we're gonna sing some stuff that I've never done before.

How many songs are there in your set list you have to do every night?

I mean I'm the obvious one You Raised Me Up?

Imaginally, just one really, just the one I think that you know I I have inexplicably I have a hit.

But but do you save that for the somehow?

Uh?

Sometimes they do it as a non course, sometimes they do it before the encore.

Is what's so interesting about that song for me is that, yeah, that is a can't leave the stage without doing it song.

Although when I did my musical Theater album tour, I didn't sing it at all.

I only sang the musical theater songs.

But but that being said, I I got it.

I mean that's because that's that's the lighters in the air, you know, moment in the show that I have to do it and having that song in my life was such an interesting surprise.

We were not gunning for a hit single.

We certainly didn't think a song like You Raised Me Up would be a single or a hit in any way, shape or form, And it wasn't a hit in the traditional way.

It was never on the Hot one hundred or anything like that, but it was everywhere.

It was one of those things that it was just it got just you know, became ubiquitous.

So so, but luckily the thing that kept me from being kind of a one hit wonder with it is that my fans from the very beginning were like, this is great, we love this song.

But they were always full album fans that my fans were always in it from for you know, their requests are never that song.

Whenever I go out to them and say, hey, what do you want to hear Deep Cuts, it's the Deep Cuts, It's the weird one.

It's that's a real so this weird Italian art song that I am going to be doing that night because they love it so much and and it's and the stories that I that I get from fans have very little to do with that song, and so it's I feel very lucky that they have continued to nourish longevity for me and a very nuanced and interesting career outside of outside of the song.

But I'll tell you other than that one, which for anybody who doesn't know me is going to know that one out there, what surrounds it is, you know, is really just whatever German, which is.

Great footed, which I know a lot of artists who feel constrained by the eight they have to get you.

You know, after that out, that song came out on my second album, and you know, I never had a song like that after that and continue to sell ten fifteen million after that.

So you know, it was one of those things where you know, it was nice, but we were never chasing the dragon of what's the next hit, which can lead to all kinds of really you know, non intuitive, you know, icky decisions creatively, when you're trying to find the copy of the copy of the thing that worked best for you.

The only thing I've we've ever wanted to do is just chase the goosebumps, just if it that because that song did it, and I knew that that song was an anomaly.

The fact that that song became big in the world of rap rock and boy bands and things like that was like, this is lightning in a bottle.

I'm not ever expecting to find the next one of these.

All I can do is try and chase whatever it was I felt when I first sang it.

And so that's just that's always been the goal.

Is there a son time song that you've yet to record that you're dying to record?

Being alive it you would your voice is so perfect I do that and counter I now and I am finally in a full blown midlife crisis.

I can I can now actually sing the shirt out of it.

Yeah, you need some pointers listen.

And I didn't want to put you on the spot, but I feel like the fill cut could be could be something that uh, as an audience, I'm not sure, but no, that's that's that's that's a bucketless song, and there's there's lots of them.

But sending the clowns is another one.

You haven't done it?

No, I might do it at the Bowl.

Good for you, my friend Spinster Stewart in a wonderful arrangement.

And I hope one of us at least is at the Bowl because one thing.

I think, am I available?

I always I love going to the Bowl.

One thing, and as coming from the rock pop world, you know, because I started out as a journalistic Rolling Stone, I know one thing I don't love is when there's a rock artist who does it in a very obligatory Okay, you have the strings playing a couple of things.

Sure, I will say an exception was the I mean, there are many exceptions, but yeah, one of the most amazing was I think last summer.

Maybe it was some before I went to see Beck.

Oh.

Yeah, and his father happens to have been one of the great strings you know, arrangers of all time, and it was Yeah, somehow genetically or he did a brilliant job of fleshing out the music.

Well, David has a has a real knack and he's found a niche.

He can do anything.

But where he's where he's really shine shines.

Where he really shines is when he when he works with interesting rock artists, specifically rock.

He does it with pop and rap as well, but when he combines rock music and he arranges around great rock songs, he does it's not obligatory.

It's not to throw the throw strings on the scorpions.

It's it is a it is a not that that was obligatory, but you know what I mean, like it's it's I could listen to that album and still enjoy it.

But I love that.

Although I will say one of the great, great examples of elevating the art form was when Michael the late great Michael came and did the Metallica s and M album.

That was I loved his arrangements around those Metallica songs.

That was one of the first times I ever heard the possibilities of what that kind of arranging could do.

And Vince Vince Mendoza is another great one.

I'm dying to know if you saw The Jesu Christ Superstar.

I didn't.

I've only seen clips online, but I was out of town.

I mean, I love that show and I've seen it, seen many iterations of it, and know everybody that was in that show and what I've seen online, it was just transcendent.

Have you sung with Cynthia?

Never sung with Cynthia, but that has to happen.

I would love to, but but I'll get on it.

I think I might be a little intimidated to sing with you.

That's a voice that that makes you want to do your scales and drink tea beforehand.

I've never seen a singer I've never been so thrilled by.

I've been on the stage, yeah, once for the Grammys and once for a PBS Grammy thing where she had to sing Where's the Love to honor?

Right?

And it was Leslie odem who you went to, Is that right?

Yes?

Who's amazing?

And yes?

And I thought, I said, not only have you honored them, I think this is rivaling it in genius and you can't.

She's just unbelieved.

Her voice is just touched.

It's truly touched.

And uh, it's one of the greatest instruments I've ever heard live, truly.

In the rock world, just because that's where I come from.

Can you name a couple singers who are you find to be incredible?

Because what's funny is like I always say, my dad was a Sinatra guy.

Yeah, right, and like he would play me his other records and I would hear great singers like people were legendary, from Mario Wanza, yeah, Jerry Fan, all these people.

Sinatra was the first one I felt I believed what he was singing.

Yeah.

So I've always had that thing and so and some of my favorite singers.

Technically, I don't know if there is Bob Dylan a good singer, No, but I love him.

Leonard Cohen, I don't know, but I loved I loved his voice.

Are there rock singers who touch you deeply?

Yeah?

I mean I had my director in great comment Rachel Chavkin.

When I missed a note or had something that was a little off, I said, yeah, but it wasn't perfect.

When she said something that stuck with me forever, which is perfect as for assholes.

And so when you think about singing, oh my god, sing when you think about those singers, right, you're singing about whether or not technically you're perfect.

I just realized it's like in the South and you say bless your heart.

Is really now you can say to people, my gosh, you're perfect.

When I I worked a lot in Nashville and a great old showbiz producer and director who you directed you, I mean know he did, Walter Miller, who goes to Grammys.

Yeah, Walter said, I'm bringing down to Nashville.

He goes.

You just needs to know one thing when they say bless your heart half the time, I mean, fuck you, juwboy.

That's exactly Walter.

Good to know it's true.

But I really I feel strongly about what you said about Dylan and others that the voices that I grew up listening to were not perfect.

I honestly my favorite voice was Paul Simon's.

There was something about it that touched my heart.

I listened to it as a kid, and I would listen to him sing about our country and sing about life and love and loss.

And there was just something about the way he he phrased his words and sang his sweet notes that just was like the human It was the humanness in Paul's voice that just absolutely grabbed me.

And then there were the impressive voices.

There was the Steve Perry's and the and the you know, and Freddie Mercury's and and and Brew is another one that that now you're talking Phil's line.

Well, but Bruce truly, I I there is something about his voice.

First of all, crazy instrument, too crazy, also a crazy instrument.

Because he can and then he could do Roy Arberson.

Absolutely right, totally right.

Uh so you know, I okati.

First of all, you heard Katie langs Roy Orberson stuff.

Oh yes, beautiful, beautiful stuff.

She's amazing.

Roy is the one like his rock pop star who I hear a little of vocal similarity.

In fact, when he passed Bob Dylan, I was, you know, Rolling Stone.

We got a quote and I think Bob Dylan's quote was he was an opera singer.

Yeah, And I think he was.

He absolutely was, and there was an era.

And I've talked to wonderful producer David Cobb about this all the time.

I love he's just such a savant and such a great like friend.

He's always just a great hang and a great conversation.

And he and I both love, love, love, uh kind of the singers from that era and the operatic nature.

The thing that he and I clicked on was how much we love that singing and that style and that open throated almost operatic singing of that of that pop era, you know, in the nineteen fifties and sixties.

And and then we started getting into like listening to the all the orchestral arrangements of Serge Gainsburg and things like that, and just how wacky and Scott Walker and people like that.

Do you know Scott Walker stuff?

I don't.

Oh, he's another voice that he started really Yeah, Walker brothers and they were Americans who went to England.

But then he started making these sort of Jacques.

Breil Yeah, and then he got weirder from there.

He did.

Bowie introduced me to his music, and it's some amazing that's.

The coolest mic drop I've ever heard.

He does it every day, at least every time.

A great what a great I would just I would have that tattooed on me somewhere.

Scott Walker Bowie introduced me to his He was like, oh, Bowie literally introduced that he.

Was interested me to the music of Scott Walker.

He did introduce me to little Richard Cool.

He said, David, would you like to meet the guy who invented rock?

Oh?

Yeah, I think that would be Oh my god, that wouldn't be bad at all.

But okay, this is a much worse name drop, but a relevant one.

We have a very close mutual friend, I know if you know he wrote the theme song to this podcast, of course, yes, sure, uh And Brad Well we always talk about with you, it's just your your your comedy chops, how funny you are?

What when were you because you talk about yourself as almost like a nervous, shy kid.

Were you always funny or what was the turning point in your in your comedy.

Rise, my comedy awakening?

And some people think you just happened the day you read Kanye You saying Kanye tweets Tommy, did they.

Say Kanye Kimmel.

You've also had Kimmel on the shows.

He's such a lovely guy and the best.

And you know, that was a funny awakening for me here because I didn't even know that that that I could use my voice in a comedy way.

When I started, there was a real control over, like the brand, you know, because social media wasn't there.

And now if you can't do all of it, then you're at a disadvantage.

But back when I started, you had to really hang on tightly to an image a brand.

They're like, you got to be the guy on the billboard on sunset, you know.

And so I always had this weird I never felt like half my brain was really the very serious and very focused on my singing and music, and the other half of my brain was truly just wack a doodle.

And I've always it was an improv class in my junior high I just I was in a black box theater and got to play improv games and got to make people laugh when I did that.

And that was the thing that made me feel confident for the first time, when I was being bullied relentlessly for shyness and for social awkwardness and for you know, I had add and didn't know it, and my grades were not great, and it's just I was really lost inside myself.

And when I made someone laugh for the first time in a comedy environment where Okay, we're pulling name things out of a hat and we're going to play these these comic games, and when when you feel that, and then when you make the bully laugh, and then you know, you start to people want to kind of be around you, and you realize it's a pretty good shield young when you're young.

We're part of the same cliche, but it's.

True, and honestly, coming up in the music business, I didn't always feel accepted.

From moment one.

I was selling a shit ton of records, but I wasn't getting great reviews.

I wasn't necessarily being written about.

I wasn't you know.

I started at the Grammys but didn't get nominated for a long time, and so I kind of felt like an outsider for a large part of the first five eight years of my career.

And the thing that kept me sane through all of that feeling very successful but very lonely was humor.

Was was getting weird and using comedy and trying to get people to kind of know more who I am not just what I'm singing through through humor, and Kim Well, of course, did did me a great service by saying, hey, we've got this crazy idea.

We're going to put these in front of you sing these.

And that was the first time I realized that I could actually blend what I do musically with something comedic and that that could work.

It was always taught to me, no, no, no, no, you.

Keep by the way you say you raised me up that I think the Kanye tweets is another one of your greater kids.

Like that's true.

I do get requests all the time to sing you know, I need a marble conference table or French fries with the devil, you know, you know.

And again that was back when we could all laugh with Kanye and it was all okay, but please talk.

To do you know what to fine marble conference tables.

I'm looking to have a conference.

At the table.

At most his tweets are one hundred and forty characters, but the depth of this passion is immeasurable.

Yeah, you know, I I it's it's fun.

I enjoy it.

Well, josh uh, your people are literally have a hook and they're pulling me off the stage because you have to go.

I oh sure, I could do this all day.

You guys, we love or no, no if you if you're because I did want to talk about your fund.

I have a video game pause.

That's what I'm laying for.

Yeah, you're fine.

I want to ask about your You talk about the kid you were, and you and Phil and I have worked.

I haven't donated as much, I'm sure, but the cause of music and arts education.

Can you just talk a little bit about because I think your fans helped lead the way, and I think you have an event coming up in October.

I do thank you so much for asking about that, because you know, I mentioned that little black box theater and that theater teacher who let me open it up during the free period and let me have it, the choir teacher who pulled me out of the back of the back of the choir gave me my first solo, and that solo was on par with making someone laugh.

All of a sudden, somebody said, hey, that was pretty good.

Having access to teachers and to an environment where I could express myself artistically saved me from turning inside myself for my entire adulthood, and so two thousand and seven Greek theater, some fans brought a jumbo check up to this front of the stage.

Nine times out of ten, I would be kind of going, oh God, what's this thing?

They said, Hey, we've raised a lot of money.

We want you to start a foundation one day, and this is our first donation.

Whenever you do it, isn't that beautiful?

Without asking?

That was without asking.

These are the same fans who didn't need me to make a second hit.

You know, these are these fans are lifers, and they are awesome, and you know, and so I held onto it.

I had I I we had an umbrella organization where we gave to a lot of different places.

If fans wanted to donate, We had a we had a something called the Josh Grobin Foundation where we could give to medical research and homelessness and things like that.

But at some point, and I think that the turning point for me was when I was asked by Americans for the Arts, which is a wonderful organization, to go testify to Congress about the importance of arts.

And I got to do that with Linda Ronstadt and Winn and Marsalises.

That's not bad co truly the most intimidating.

I mean their speeches and Winton's, Nancy Hank's lecture was just beyond and.

And by the way, Linda Ronstadt an example of a pop rock star, truly one of the great voices.

Heard at the top of my list of rock stars and pop stars whose voices can see anything.

Oh my God, and her duet of course with Paul was incredible.

But I realized as I was talking to a lot of stone faced congressmen and women who were there to just rubber stamp whatever it was, this is just another day on their calendar.

Truly an intimidating environment to testifying to Congress or to talk talk in that in that room that was not the side of my brain that works the best.

Is not that side.

But but talking about the arts and talking about what it meant to me.

I realized this is something that is deeply personal, and I'll always give to the other organizations, but as a foundation, we wanted to make sure it was for the same you know, kids that could benefit from what I from what I benefited from.

So Find Your Light is all about making sure that we give grants to the programs around the country that need the most.

And uh and we have Yeah, we have a gala on October eighth at Jef Carener, speaking of went back with Wyinton.

He's given us the Just Lincoln Center Theater to do that at.

I always say, these politicians who think the arts are disposable, they don't realize it's the answer.

It's the answer not only to remind us who we are in our humanity.

Uh it it I say it on stage, but that it shines a light on the beauty of our similarities, but more importantly on the beauty of our differences.

Right and also and and if for those that are up there just thinking about the math, the arts are big business.

It's not just the theaters and the actors and the crew, it's the it's the surrounding restaurants and all of the business is around it.

And also activates the brain to solve all your other problem.

And the super fun thing about being in arts philanthropy is that the scientists and the neuroscientists are now coming up with all kinds of concrete evidence that art and the brain is important.

And by the way, because I wrote these White House specials for the Clinton administration, and I remember this information is not new.

We should be acting on this, and it comes up on this podcast a lot lately.

We had Regina Spector, Oh yeah, she had.

We had her in a few weeks ago, and I was just thinking, like a kid who came here from Russia, like one music teacher offering free lessons is the reason that there's this great artist in the world.

And she said, like, if you can't travel the world, if you can't go anywhere, if you can teach a kid to love looking at paintings, they can go to a museum and have a great day.

They can if you can teach someone an instrument, they can have joy for a day in their room.

And that joy is important too.

For anybody that just says el is just to feel good, there's nothing wrong with that either.

By the way, we need as much feel good as we can get joy that that serotonin hanging on for dear life.

That's be all right for me.

If that does that for a student one day and lets them go home with a smile on their face, that can be life saving.

And we also say that if we find the next Reginia Spector, that's a bonus.

But my favorite things are when somebody comes up to me on the on the train or wherever else and says, hey, I'm a I'm a cardiac antesesiologist or whatever you know.

I'm a lawyer.

And my arts teacher made me feel the best I've ever felt.

And that's why I am who I am today.

We're trying to enrich confidence building and people building with the arts, not just talent searching.

So yeah, it's it's the greatest joy that I in privilege that I have now to be able to do this.

And we're gonna do a really fun concert and raise a lot of money.

Great.

Great, I just love meeting you.

It's a same year.

I love what you do, both of you, and I love the podcast and it's just such an honor to chat with you both.

And and I love this lunchbak to.

I don't know if you sell them.

Merch but and if you ever want to come back, and if you ever want to come back and review Brad Paisley's theme song singing him on it, You're more.

Than welcome you ever need a new one.

I'm great interpreting.

I I haven't yet recorded the Paisley album, but there's there's there.

Now there's a composer and I would love to get my teeth into.

Before we go.

Yeah, that's my daughter in law, Yes, Hi Delaney Harder Rosenthal.

She's a great violin and she's played with The Who and Adele.

Do you have a question for Josh You can think about it for a second.

Oh, who's your favorite instrumentalist that I collaborated with?

Oh, that's a really great that's a really great question I've been I love collaborating with instrumentalists.

It would be fill on jews harp.

Maybe not not yet.

Can we can we manifest that?

That would be Yeah, I'm working on my duet with you, but that would be great.

I love them equally musically.

But one of the best ones, one of the most fun experiences I ever had was working with the trumpet player Arturo Sandoval.

Oh.

We recorded together, and the reason for that was it was a music lesson as well as a recording.

He I went to his house and he played for me.

He's also an extraordinary piano player.

He was piano player in Cuba before Cuba told him you have to play trumpet, and he has Oscar Peterson's bosun' door for piano and I went to his house and he's just played, he's just playing.

So it was playing this this, this piano so brilliantly.

And then when we recorded a Capital.

My dad's a trumpet player, so so, or at least was before he went into, you know, executive recruiting.

His mom said, that's no way to make a living.

You got to go into business.

But Kenner executive recruiting or Alto.

Executive, yeah, I think Alto, probably Alto.

But I brought him to the studio and I introduced Artro to my dad, and my dad was just like a kidney and he was just like, all of a sudden, he was fourteen again talking to Arturo and Arturo's I've got a video of and I'll send it to you guys where our Truro is saying, hey, Jack, you know you want to see this cool thing I can do on this trumpet and he's playing his lowest note.

It sounds like a tuba.

And then he's going, hey, you want to you want to see check this out?

And my dad's going yeah, yeah, yeah, and he's gone, He's doing the highest note that he can possibly play, and he's saying, you know where I learned to do that?

Dizzy Gillespie taught me and he's just he's telling like he was telling us all these stories.

And I've had a lot of great duets where it's just but it's just been a it's just been a wonderful session.

And with our Turo it was like this life infusion.

And he was so cool with my dad, and he taught me so much about the trumpet and and and it turned into a an enduring friendship.

You know.

I played with him and he came out last time I played a couple of times ago.

I played at the Bowl.

He came out and played with me.

So, yeah, that was a good one.

Are you allowed?

Are you allowed to say?

What special guests?

Are you like?

Surprise this one?

We're still in the process of confirming some special guests.

It might be nobody close to that's right?

Are you asking?

Because I'm actually I got to be a special guests guaranteed way, but there may be some surprise if you.

Want to see a great appearance.

Yeah, you are you familiar with Lake Street Dive?

I bet yeah, sure.

They did the theme song for Somebody Feed Phil.

I like Brad Payson for our podcast, right, and there's an appearance is it Red Rocks where Phil appears as a live guest.

Did you actually come out on Red Rocks with them?

I did?

During they they get requests to play the theme song.

Yeah, because do you know Rachel Have you met Rachel Rice?

No, Rachel Brosnahan, No, No, Rachel Price, the lead singer of I was thinking to myself, Rachel is not the least she's She's a phenomenal and she can also so it's one of these people who can sing anything.

Uh.

Yeah.

I just came out and fooled around with him while he said, but.

And did did did you?

Did you taste the live stage?

And did it?

Did it make you crave it?

Yes?

Yeah, there's no no, no more of this behind the scenes.

Oh no, no, you know Phil, You might not know this.

Phil has been on tour the last couple of.

Years, several years now.

He did probably a I don't know.

Maybe it's a stage you've played.

Was it the London Palladium?

I played the Palladium?

Sure, so you've both You're two guys who played.

You're just two guys who played the differences.

Josh has real talent, that's true.

Listen, you know what it's Hey, it's it's all subjective.

Were there butts in the seats?

There you go, Hey, we're in the same boat.

Yeah.

Uh, you know it's I feel exactly the same way you do about uh laughter, making you just a little have a little bit more of a shield.

Yep.

I always say it was the only way I could get the boys to stop hitting me, and the only way to get a girl to talk to me.

That's right.

Yeah, And by the way, the only way that the best way that I have to counter my own nerves on stage today, I might go out and start with two serious as a heart attack songs, but if I can't joke around with the audience right afterwards, I don't feel like I've I don't feel like I've set the pH balance of the connect where I need it to be in order to earn the seriousness and the next stuff that the left the left with the I always admire the super serious acts who just go fifteen songs in a row without chatting.

You know.

It's like there you would go to Radiohead, you got a Hey, even Bruce, but he'll go into a story sometimes later on in the night, but he'll just go one, two, three, and he'll go right into the next one.

You know I have.

I've got a banterer.

I've got to like say, all right, hey, you know what are we doing here?

And it's fun for you too, it's fun.

It helps me too.

So yeah, so that I started to include some of that into I haven't written any bits or anything, but it's just it's fun to do.

Well, there's another album you can do in your sixties, Randy Newman.

I would like to hear an album of Newman.

The greatest songs of all time, truly, and we and we love a Randy Newman.

So how about, if we're lucky we hear a Randy Newman.

Talking about the imperfect voice Tom Waits.

Yeah, but the melodies, I mean, the whole thing about him is he writes these gorgeous melodies and then sing them like a like a truck.

Absolutely.

David Foster gave me an amazing piece of advice early on, which is that because he hears perfect voices all the time, and there are instruments that I listened to and I go, God, I wish I could do that.

I wish I could hold that note that way, or I wish I had the control that that person has, and David said, because I was a nutcase in those first couple of albums recording with him, I would come in just insecure as I'll get up, and he'd say, you know, you don't want to be and it was a little bit like the perfectest rasshole's comment, but he said, the voice you want to continue having is the one that in a crowded restaurant in five seconds, somebody can say that's Josh Grogman, you know, or that's Tom Waits or that's whoever.

That it's not about acrobatics.

It's about having something that is a sound that is uniquely yours, yes, and hanging on to that.

And also I tell that to students that are about to go into Julliard and go into vocal programs that are the most esteemed.

Is that train to be the most the greatest technician you can, but don't train out the thing that makes you fringe, because the thing that makes you fringe is going to be the thing that makes you a one of one.

And so it's like writing, you get as specific as you can get, yep, and that's where universality is.

That's exactly right.

Well, thank you for being one of one, and thank you for coming to Naked Lunch.

It's been my absolute pleasure.

You're the best jes Thank you, Phil, Thanks guys.

Naked Lunch is a podcast by Phil Rosenthal and David Wilde.

Theme song and music by.

Brad Paisley, Produced by Will Sterling and Ryan Tillotson, with video editing by Daniel Ferrara and motion graphics by Ali Ahmed.

Executive produced by Phil Rosenthal, David Wilde, and our consulting journalist is Pamela Chella.

If you enjoyed the show, share it with a friend, But if you can't take my word for it, take Phil's.

And don't forget to leave a good rating and review.

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You know, thanks for listening to Naked Lunch, A Lucky Bastard's production.