: Marketing is constantly evolving, but one type of strategy has been in the crosshairs of regulators as influencers have taken over the internet in the last few years. And if one industry knows about catching the attention of governments when trying to promote their business, that's gaming, where more often than not, licensed companies are paying the piper for malpractice from unregulated companies. Welcome to iGaming Daily, where we will discuss the latest on the matter as a lot has been going on around influencer marketing within the iGaming industry. I am Fernando Nott, your host for today and SBC Media Manager. And today I'm joined by Joe Streeter. Joey, I'm already changing your name. Joe Streeter, editor of iGaming Expert. Joe, how are you today? I'm very good, Fernando. Yeah, know, football's back. The sun is shining. It's good times. I'm excited for a weekend of football across the board, the Premier League, the EFL, yeah. Couldn't be happier. Yeah, I'm excited to talk to you on Monday and see if you are still excited about United's performance. But let's keep that for next week and let's welcome Ana Maria Menezes, business journalist for SBC News Brasil. Ana, how are you today? I'm doing very well and about football, even though Flamengo lost the Copa do Brasil, which made me very sad. We are repeating the same pattern when the last time that we lost the Copa do Brasil and with all that is foreign, we won the Libertadores. So am I saying that we're going to win? 100%. Just take that. Just take that. We're winning this. We're winning this. I'll take that. I'll take that. And I'm mocking United, but Boca Juniors hasn't won in 12 games. Already that's the longest dry streak for Boca. And actually last time Boca won, Pope Francis was still alive. So there you have it. So I can't really say anything about football other than good luck guys, best of luck this weekend, best of luck with the Libertadores, we just want to win a game at this stage. back to the podcast, thanks Optimo, the number one CRM marketing solution for the iGaming market and sponsor of iGaming Daily. So we were talking about influencer marketing and Brazil is of course one of the most looked upon markets in the world over the recent years, but especially this year because the new regulation came into play. over the last few days there's been some bad news around the gaming industry. course when we say the gaming industry it's a very broad term right because there's the regulated gaming industry where companies are trying to do well, they're trying to do things in order and creating jobs and paying the taxes and paying back to the countries and the markets where they operating and then there is the unrelated market which is what comes into play in this story that Ana is about to let us know what happened. so we have had some big operations trying to charge and arrest people related to illegal gambling here in Brazil and the last one that we got information about was the operation Desfortuna. If I translate in terms like that in English is always a challenge, but I could say operation unfortunate. And it's happening. It's starting in Rio de Janeiro, but it's developing all over Brazil. Uh, it was launched a couple of weeks ago and they're looking to accounts of influencers that who have moved more than 40 million reais around 2022 and 2024, all promoting illegal gambling, uh, websites. So a big name here for us that every single Brazilian knows is the Jogo do Tigrinho. So the Tiger Fortune moved through illegal websites, non-legal websites. We have to put this here in big caps. And those investigators who were looking to that made the statement that they have reached all of with illegal gambling marketing. more than four billion reais, which is around $700 million from 2022 to 2024. And this is a big number, a big number, just so we can get a comparison. It's when we look into the period that the legal companies have provided in Texas and all of that, it's a bigger amount. It's insane how much money they provided and just the influencers, not even something like considering the whole scheme. And now so far that we have knowledge of those are 32, 31, sorry, search and seizure warrants across Rio de Janeiro, São Paulo, Minas Gerais as well. And they have charged it officially 15 influencers and those influencers all bringing up a very, oh, I'm rich lifestyle and all of that. As we know that through a combination is not really well seen in the public side, but also the regulator's eyes as well. And I just want to make this comment because to me that was a bit insane if I can say it this way, not actually insane, but interesting to see the pattern of behavior. One of those influencers is called Mauricio or Maumauzika. He was detained in São Paulo and they found a firearm, unregistered firearm in his house and with the serial number I scratched it, so removed. And then he made a video in his prison cell, contesting the charges and saying, I'm not a thief, I'm not a criminal. And he insisted that the firearm was part of a publicity stunt. And what publicity stunt? He hasn't mentioned LA so far. And he said that his marketing agreement was limited to what he did. So he was saying, I only did what I was paid to do. This statement. understanding what he meant behind that says a lot about responsible gambling and how influencers actually know about the market that they're involved if it's illegal or legal. And I do believe we should talk a bit more about it. Anna, if I can, can I ask you a question around this? obviously from a European perspective, it feels like quite a big story. I think it would move the needle here if it was the equivalent story. I just wonder how much with little knowledge of Brazilian news, how much this has cut through to the mainstream, how big are these influences amongst a mainstream audience? So first of all, we have to understand first that Brazilians are obsessed with social media. This is a pattern behaviour. We are one of the biggest users of Facebook, WhatsApp, Instagram, Twitter, all over the world. We are really deeply obsessed with social media. So this is a behaviour from the older, like the eldest person of my family to the youngest. It's a pattern. So when we're talking about influencers, it's very easy in a way to see people with like 5 million followers with 10 million sometimes. And it's just a big, big cloud of people. So even though those are big numbers, sometimes they don't reach the main media because we have a lot of people. So it's kind of interesting to look from this side because even though someone has 5 million followers, At some point, I don't even know them and I am deeply, deeply connected to the internet world. So this is something that is very interesting to know about Brazil. Some of those influencers I knew just from hearing about them. Some of them never, even though they have a bunch of million followers. So I think it's interesting to know from this side. But the influencers being charged, arrested, investigated for illegal gambling is not news for us. So I don't believe. these news, of course, they reached the mainstream media, but not as hard as it would have been sort of like causing an impact because we already have that going on for more than five years now. No, no, that is interesting because I just saw the big numbers of followers and I thought, wow, this is, you know, some big, big players that have been arrested. But I guess that's more, more common in Brazil to have that type of social media reach. It's moved the needle slightly less. Exactly. But there is also a more serious arrest around this whole operation over an alleged hit list that included the names of people that were advocating against the illegal gaming websites. criminal syndicate that promoted unlicensed online gambling. And she also allegedly as mentioned, compiled a hit list targeting journalists and officials of the law. So delegates who criticize her actions and were trying to investigate the whole scheme that she's supposed to be behind it. Again, investigations are still ongoing. And she also had some videos released from her detention saying that she's innocent and reminding her followers and quote here, detention is not equivalent to guilt. At the same time, there are, as appointed by the portal Jota, there are some informations that she was celebrating the death of one of the journalists. He died earlier this year. He was on that supposed that alleged hit list and he died from a heart attack. So it was, of course, It was unfortunate, but it was a health issue. And she would have supposedly she celebrated saying one less to go. Now there's the others. So these all counts a lot in the investigation and still ongoing. We're still going to see as very like to say, hashtag waiting. See, we're going to cover that on SPC Noticias Brasil as usual, but it is a very serious accusation. And it is especially because it is involved with the gambling market. Yeah, obviously allegations levelled against her are, they are abhorrent and there's no defence for them. But I do think there is a wider question around this story. And it's a really interesting sentiment for markets like Brazil that have been grey or black for such a long time and then moved to regulation. How do you, you know, when it comes to influencers and affiliates, Do you stay in those that have previously worked with the grey and black market before as blacklisted and unable to work with the industry and they're not coming over to this regulated industry that's about to be formed? Or do you transition them over? I think that's an interesting challenge and I don't know the answer but I think this kind of story raises that question a little bit further. I can give you an example of one influencer and a big influencer. who has caused a lot of surging in Brazil is Virginia. So Virginia was even called to talk in front of the CPI of BATS. So she was called to talk in front of senators, of deputies, of a whole bunch of politicians interested in learning. What did she actually know about the platforms she was doing the marketing for? She was working through the great period here in Brazil. And then she also was part of the transition to the regulated market. And when she was speaking, people realized she doesn't know what what's going on. This is the impression. Yeah. She during some times when the, uh, when Soraya, the rep of the CPI, when she asked her, did you know about this? She said, I had no idea this was going on and about the market. Uh, if you guys, of course, want to read more about it, we have covered that on SBC News Jesus Brazil. Uh, I also believe it is covered, um, by Ted, one of our journalists here as well. He also covers a lot of Brazil stories in English. But yeah, it is a big case. And I do believe it is a good example on how to maybe learn to educate the influencers that the operators are hiring that come from who come from the gray market to the regulated market. that's definitely an issue for operators. And that has been a topic of conversation across all of all of the SPC events so make sure not only you are subscribed to every SPC media newsletter to keep up to date with this information but also make sure you attend SPC events so you can stay right next to the conversation where the actual people that are participating are talking about it but right now we are going to do a very quick break and we are going to be back with more iGaming Daily to discuss influencer marketing elsewhere in the world. And we are back with more iGaming daily and like I said influencer marketing is not an issue exclusively in Brazil because influencers have taken over the internet everywhere in the world and speaking of crackdowns on gaming influencers Sweden and Kenya have also made the news over the last few days Joe. Yeah well we had a well timed ad break there Fernando because I had to go and cash my betting slip for how many I backed the overs on plugs in the first half of the episode that Anna would give for SBC Noticias. it landed. money there. Yeah. made some money. Yeah. But yeah, you're right. A little crackdown on Sweden. I'm not going to try and pronounce the regulator's name in Sweden. It is a long one. That's a safe thing to do. Yeah. But a big crackdown on promotion of illegal gambling operators. and particularly through streaming sites as well like Twitch. So really interesting. We saw a surge in Kenyan betting engagement and black market engagement as well through social media platforms, particularly Facebook. Yeah, it's not a surprise that we saw these efforts from Kenya that they took aim at social media platforms. And I think this was also replicated in Argentina as well, or yeah, at least there were some efforts in Argentina to try and clamp down on this, right? Yeah, think Argentina's case is pretty similar to Brazil, not only because there was a clampdown on influencers that were promoting illegal websites, but also because Argentina is sort of an emerging market. It's not as new as Brazil, which is only from this year, even though the market goes back a few years also beyond this current regulation. But Argentina has been operating for four or five years now. But yeah, the specialized prosecutor's office for gambling sanctioned actually 16 influencers pretty much same similar amount to to Brazil for actually promoting unregulated websites and actually ask them or order them actually to record a video promoting responsible gambling and warning about the issues of betting on unlicensed websites so you would have actresses you have models a rapper a very famous rapper in Argentina called elegante Wanda Nara, who is the former agent and partner of footballer Mauro Icardi, you may have heard her name, she was also involved in this case, she's kind of like our Kardashian, like a low budget Kardashian for us, so she was involved in this too, she had to record the video as well, she was wearing these sun shades and saying hey don't bet on illegal websites even though I said you should. This has been an issue in Argentina because like the US, Argentina is a federal country, each province has their own regulation and this sanction was by the city of Buenos Aires but of course unregulated companies target an NHY audience so they don't make a difference if you are in the city or in the province. So it's definitely a challenge for Argentina to tackle this type of situations. Fair, I do have a question for you though. You mentioned that the city of Buenos Aires issue the decision. Is it sort of a trend for other fairies to actually follow the decision of one? How does it work for you guys usually? I wouldn't say this will go on to be a trend, but I do think it's like probably something that they will look into because you don't have many options to do this other than, like we mentioned before, educating the influencers so they don't promote. illegal websites as once they have already promoted illegal websites you have to sanction them with this type of things either making them record a video like the city did or having them do a course on why they shouldn't be promoting illegal operations of any type like in this case it's gambling but of course there are a lot of activities that are unrelated that they might be promoting and yeah they shouldn't. I think obviously the circumstances aren't great there in the way they've done it and they've kind of been forced to do it, but I do think that taps into something that could work and that kind of the regulated industry and the safer gambling industry also needs to look at. that is something I guess the black market does well in terms of marketing. They know how to reach people and that is through influencers. And I think you could portray positive messages through influencers as well. Obviously the circumstances in which you're talking about there where they're doing it as a sanction isn't, that's not ideal. That's not the way to do it because I guess it comes across as insincere, or it could come across as insincere. I think utilising influencers to send a positive message or to send a safer gambling message, I think that's something obviously acquire and budget permitting. I think that's something that the regulated industry should definitely look to. Yeah, actually the city of Buenos Aires has within its regulation within its law that when a gaming company hires it doesn't say the word influencer but it says something like a relevant personality, you know, like someone that's famous or someone that can have any impact on the population. When a gaming company hires someone to do a promotion or to promote their business, they need to issue a responsible gambling message. So it's not only come and bet on our side but they also need to do responsible gambling message so I think that's really the way to go for this type of marketing especially because companies are looking at influencer marketing they are trying to get these influencers the right influencers of course to help them build their community around the internet build them their reputation in these markets where they might not be as known like for example in Brazil maybe they know the local companies but when a big player from Europe comes into Brazil they need to get the people to know them and influencer marketing has definitely been an option for gaming companies to help them and build their brand awareness Even if they are hiring low budget Kardashians as you described them. Yeah, but that's the black market. I'm not a big Kardashian fan nor a Wanda Nara fan, but okay. mean, the woman deserves respect because she has negotiated some serious deals for some unskilled footballers, let's say. But... the clothes are out, Fernando, I love it. respect for Wanda Nara. What do you think, to wrap this up and get off the close discussion, what do you the industry needs to do in terms of advertising and what lessons can the developing markets learn from more experienced ones so we can avoid these type of stories? Yeah, well, it's hard to follow that up Fernando, but I think... One thing that I've noticed recently and one thing that is very concerning to me is kind of an infiltration, I would call it, of I think it's largely crypto gaming firms, but there are a lot of gaming firms that are using TikTok and or even if they're not directly using TikTok, their clips are being circulated on TikTok and are reaching a mass audience with influencers playing crash games and not particularly from the clips I've seen playing them in a very responsible way. Yeah, I think this is a real problem and a blind spot for the industry. Not necessarily the regulated industry, but in terms of safer gambling, it's something that, yeah, it's a real threat to cause harm and it is something of a blind spot at the moment. yeah, I think that's something we need to get hold of somehow. Aside from that, it's a tricky one. What can you learn from? more mature markets. Just balance is key. Particularly around sport. We know such a big audience watches sport. So yeah, balance is key. But I think there's largely a different mindset to sponsorship in sport in South America, I think. And please correct me if I'm wrong here, but from a panel that I listened to an SBC event not that long back, I think there was largely just... more happiness just to see a brand funding the team and it go into the good of the team, less negative connotations around that potential sponsorship. Yeah, well there is some negative connotations. mean, there's always the segments that say, hey, why is gambling taking over the football shirts? But of course, the money that the gaming industry is bringing into the Latin American football is helping teams develop. That's for sure a good thing but like you said it is a tricky situation and I think like I said countless times before in the podcast I think the industry needs to be proactive so it avoids having to face sanctions like or regulations like Italy or Spain or even the UK where the government might say hey you can't advertise at all or you can only advertise within certain times but yeah we will definitely be looking into this matter so remember to subscribe to all SBC media newsletters and go attend SBC events because the conversation is happening there as things happen. this has been all for today, thank you very much Joe, thank you very much Anna and Anaya Mcdonald for producing this episode, to all listeners out there, we'll see you in the next one. Goodbye.