The good stuff, the big episode 24, the one that everyone's been looking forward to today we have a guest.

So welcome to author, entrepreneur, investor.

Is there anything else that you would add to that, Jeff?

Like no.

All around good guy all.

Around good guy, our friend Jeff Booth.

So welcome to the good stuff.

You made one second as I lost my one of my Airpods.

And This is why it's live.

It's a, it's a, it's a low fi podcast.

Here we go.

All right, So what I thought would be fun to start with today was was listening to your your recent show with Preston on.

I think it's the BTC 251, which I thought was a real shame that he didn't go to BTC 256 just to finish off at a major number.

But anyway, we'll let him off at all.

And to paraphrase, at the end of the show, you said some he said like, you know, what would you add to the, the price of tomorrow if you could redo the book again?

And you said something along the lines of, you know, I'd love to add something about how you have agency in the world and that, you know, people could realize that the jail cell door is open and you can just walk out and you can create the world you want to live in.

And it doesn't have to be this world that's currently built on fear, coercion and control.

And we could build one on hope, truth and abundance.

I know I was just like, that's a banger.

And then Preston said, all right, that's a great mic drop moment.

And we stuffed the part.

And then I think myself and about 200,000 people just went no no like.

Keep going.

Keep going.

That's great.

So I, I mean this is you've probably done like 100 podcasts since then, but like, I don't know, that would be a great subject to expand on like how do we build this, this world built on hope, truth and abundance and like what does that mean to you?

So.

So, so this is a depending on where you're starting from, a lot of Bitcoiners are probably already here, but I, so I wrote, wrote something on Noster recently that said, essentially you find Bitcoin from either from a higher consciousness that this just makes sense and then you explore it a different consciousness than the existing system, or you're in Bitcoin for long enough that you expand your consciousness and you can see what I just said is true, right?

And every single person, including me, is on a journey somewhere, somewhere along there.

And, and that journey comes from so, so the world, the perceived reality of the world is from us, right?

If you take, let's just, let's just use a couple of examples to make it real.

If you're in Palestine right now, your reality is much different than Pete or Andy.

Your reality, your both of your realities are different than my reality.

A victim walking down the street who believes that everything conspires in the world against that person, that person's reality is different again from my reality.

Each of our kind of fragments of reality is true for us and, and, and, and it, and it comes from mind, right.

So all of this comes from everything comes from consciousness and mind and, and our physical manifestation of reality comes from our belief inside that in inside that bubble and, and IT projects back at us.

It just reflects back at us and we, we so defend that reality and just imagine a filter bubble of that's your reality, right?

And outside that filter bubble is an unknown, but it's scary and it's too and it's constantly unknown.

And and so inside your reality, I'm not saying it's not true.

It is true for every one of us, right?

According to our perceptions of truth of what, of what that looks like.

I know we're jumping way into a deep end here because we have, because we have to.

If we're just, if we're describing something that that that is outside of most people's objective reality, right?

We have to, we are it, right?

The when I say the natural state of the free market is deflation, everybody naturally and what Andy's doing right now nods his head, but everybody does that.

I mean everybody and they do that because when you hear a truth that is so profound and true, you just, you feel the truth, right?

And so even if you can't wrap your head around it, your, your body reacts to it, you feel it right.

And, and so then we say that and we go back and living and experiencing from a perceived.

So that's an objective reality.

That is true for sure.

But then we go back into this other system and we measure from a, from from what isn't true, what isn't, what it would have perceived, a system that's been built around a different structure.

So from that system, if we're measuring from that system, it would be really hard to stay in the energy around the objective truth.

Does that make sense?

So if it so here, here's maybe a different way.

Let's go into this a whole bunch of different ways, right?

And and so one way in into this is everything in your room right now, this Zoom, this everything in your life, your, the mathematics that runs your perception of the universe, all comes from mind.

Everything, everything that's in, in, in in your room had to come from somebody saying, I want to create this, right?

Yeah.

And it had to be formed into a physical manifestation of mind.

Fair everything.

Yes.

Everything you experience is from a physical, from a unconscious first idea that somehow that idea competed against another idea to create something of value to you, that then you.

So if everything comes from mind and then moves into a physical reality, right, that we experience and we we tend to think that in any epoch in history that we know about 98% of everything we need to know, right?

We always do.

We always do.

We're we're.

Yeah.

Insanely smug, right?

Insanely smug that we know at all those other people didn't know it all, but now we know it.

All right?

And that repeats through time, right.

And that repeating through time is also what gives entrepreneurs or people visionaries or people who see something different tying into something an an advantage to create something that is unknown by the mass majority of people, that creates value for them, that creates that creates a new reality for those people.

If you just take it into small, small examples right in the free market research in Motion, BlackBerry, I was convinced.

I was convinced even though I'm kind of a visionary on the spectrum.

On a visionary, I was convinced I would never use an Apple product because the IT was a cute toy and I wanted the buttons, e-mail, the buttons on my phone were so important to me.

And and so you had somebody building something totally different against my belief, four years secret project.

And when it came out, my mind changed immediately, right.

And if you had asked me what I would if I'd changed before?

No chance.

Right.

Something emerges that we didn't know and our and we change and all of a sudden it's normal.

Right.

When I talked about Michael Faraday and and Madeira in my speech.

Michael Faraday creating understanding electromagnetism before from an idea that was all around us for thousands of years but nobody had seen, right.

And then James Clark Maxwell taking the equations for electromagnetism that runs all of our satellite communications, electricity, everything today perfectly from an idea that that for thousands of years nobody had.

That idea changes our reality, right?

It all comes from us, right?

So I know so, so now, now if you follow that through, if that all comes from us and the natural state of the free market is deflation and that also comes from us, which is a natural evolution of Avas.

What would it look like to those that, that, that, that their reality, if you came into their physical reality, which also creates their beliefs that physical reality was a manifestation of a broken trade between us that reinforced on itself, right?

So their physical reality.

So if you had broken money and their physical reality was through that broken money, right?

And, and, and all money was, was an abstract concept for the trade between humans.

And you broke and you broke that abstract concept.

Then all of the physical reality that most people experience would be through that lens and it would reinforce back at them, right?

And and and inside that consciousness, it would be really easy to hate other people.

Yeah, right.

It would be really easy to divide other people.

It would be really easy to look inside that box, let's say, let's say that filter bubble, and believe that there was a way to fix it from within that filter bubble, because you would want to believe it.

It's easier to believe it's somebody else rather than you.

Yeah, yeah.

So is somebody else doing it to you?

It's.

Some it's way, way easier and there would be a whole bunch of people within that filter bubble that would feedback to you because of the other guy, right?

The other person that, that you're right.

And that would feel inside that filter bubble.

It would feel like you belonged, right?

It feel it would feel like you, you mattered because you were doing something so much more important than those other people.

But it would divide you more and more and more because nothing could resolve that conflict from within that filter bubble.

But all of us would be in that filter bubble.

And then you have this new thing that's outside, right?

It's truly outside that if you take agency in that that you know, you know, by taking agency and running a node and and contributing to the decentralization and security.

But by starting your payments in there, you know not you think you know.

You're taking an act of participation in something that is imposing a new objective reality on a whole bunch of people stuck in this filter bubble.

Yeah, right.

So that's what I mean by and and I know we went all over the map there, but that's what but that's what I mean.

And and we we literally all have that agency and what you and and and but it's easy to believe we don't.

It's easy for if you just, I know when I'm talking like this, a whole bunch of people are going to be listening and saying and and and doing something along the lines of this, yeah, I know me and Jeff are doing this.

Me, Pete Dandy and Jeff are doing this.

But those other people?

Right.

And, and, and so the only way to actually tell is how often are you saying those other people, how often are you, how often are you blaming anybody else rather than just moving at your time and energy into a new system that you're contributing to, to make, to make stronger?

And how much time?

How much time?

And, and I do this all the time.

And I'm not saying I'm, I'm perfect, but it's helped me learn to, to how much time is the existing system trying to pull you back into it?

And how much time are you listening?

How much time are you actually watching Twitter or the news or or or that which is taking away from the your energy in the new system because it has to.

Yeah, right.

So, so if you're, if you're really honest with your time, you can, you can know this is all here, but it doesn't have to, it doesn't have to affect your emotions.

You have a choice, right?

Every single one of us has a choice to, to, to, to an event happens and, and it's our perception of the event that drives our emotion, right?

What does it mean for, for us?

And so you can tune this out.

You can tune out.

I'm not saying there's not going to be bad events and craziness and, and way more things that are going to happen to try to drag you back in, but you have the choice.

You have agency.

We all have agency.

Yeah, I think it's talked about a lot in meditation where it's the, you know, you can, you can add that pause when something happens, you can take the pause and then you can choose how to react.

And in that pause you can realize that like, oh, I don't, I don't have to react to this thing yet because I'm in my pause.

And then you start to realize, well, what if that pause was like, you know, like 2 minutes?

And then that's achievable.

It's like, well, if it could be two minutes, like why couldn't it be 21 minutes?

And why couldn't it be 21 years?

And then all of a sudden you're like, oh, hang on a minute.

Maybe this never had to just affect me.

Maybe I was just reacting to this thing.

It's interesting.

Yeah.

And and.

But that's exactly, that's exactly it, Dave.

It's, it's the, it's the, the, the event.

What what drives our emotion is what the event says about us, right?

Our perception of the of the event.

Someone cuts us off in traffic and and that person must be an asshole instead of it.

But but instead of that person as a as a kid who just broke his arm and is racing to the hospital.

Right.

Yeah, so, so we, we make up a story and that story is true for us and that story repeats and why and why we and why we can't see it.

So just a story because it's all in our mind and it's and it's repeating back at us.

And then we see this everywhere.

Like you see people fighting the world everywhere.

I'm not saying that that's bad for them.

If the if that makes them truly happy.

And that's what the the, the, the then go ahead and do it right.

But that, but that is a just like my own perceived reality or my own objective reality is true for me.

It works for me, right?

I'm not saying what anybody should or shouldn't do.

I'm just saying that for for me, I tend to get far more done.

I tend to be far happier in in my life.

I seem to it reflects back at me everywhere when I'm in a higher energy state instead of coming down to something that I can't change those, I can't change those things from that system and those people anyways, right?

I just don't need to let them be them and find this on their own.

I tend to things tend to reflect back to me in a in a better.

Picture for me that's interesting about it like sometimes the event itself can be the impetus for discovering that you actually have agency you know like I can think about my own journey to Bitcoin A lot of it came out of COVID.

You know, the early, the early part of the COVID pandemic in Australia was, you know, it was, it was kind of characterized by a lot of government intervention, heavy-handed, some control.

And my initial reaction to that was one of probably an, an initially a bit of helplessness, which the longer it went, turned into anger.

And then the longer that went, it turned into, oh, I need to find an escape, an escape hatch.

And, you know, luckily, like that process for me wasn't, you know, wasn't too elongated because I think, you know, I've been listening to obviously Pete and I would, you know, friends for a long time, but I've been listening to Preston Pish for, for a long time.

You know, like I'd kind of come through the, the value investing framework and, and Preston was like a huge influence on my life.

And then, you know, discovered your book.

And so, you know, like the event itself is quiet.

It's quite galvanizing.

I think it can shape a lot of this belief in, in no one's coming to save you.

I need to be find a way to be permissionless.

And then I find that like, looking back now, while you were talking, I was thinking there were all of these little events that were occurring not to me, but around me that I was perceiving that actually reinforced my view of why Bitcoin was important to me.

Things like, you know, the war in Ukraine and the seizure of, you know, Russian treasuries and, you know, obviously COVID itself, but there were these like continuous markers right along the the previous five years for me that kind of just reinforced this, this notion that I needed the escape hatch and, and Bitcoin offered that, but I wouldn't say it was, it was linear.

Like I didn't kind of have that moment of inspiration.

I was like, this is it?

It just seemed like maybe this might be it.

And then the rest was.

I need to dive deeper into into this process.

Yeah, I think Andy, you explained something that's really important and This is why it takes so much learning because it just me too.

I was in a filter bubble that I believed that I was in a 0 sum game.

We all were right that I believed there was a resolve from the 0 sum game.

And this was outside of all my previous knowledge.

It was, it was new knowledge that I had to discover and and go through an unwinding of all my previous knowledge.

And even today there's a whole bunch of people that are taking the the last 5000 years of human history in money and everything else, which has always been a 0 sum game and trying to tie Bitcoin to that right?

Like it's an asset within that, right?

And it's and, and it's either an asset within and that and we all play a 0 sum game again and it gets captured, right?

Or, or it's a protocol outside of that that delivers abundant state billion people on the planet.

We play an infinite game instead or that is the free, free market.

And it it can't be both.

It's it's one or, or, or the other.

And so so I would say that that same thing today.

And if you understand how many bitcoiners are still trapped in that thinking, the consciousness from that thinking that that are still yet to learn the lesson that you're, you've already learned, right?

Even in even even in our knots core debate right now, that's fundamentally the debate, right?

That's fundamentally the the I'm not, I'm not saying bad people or anything else.

I'm just saying that there there's a hard line on monetary maximum.

Right, that is so scared about the creeping entity of the 0 sum game creeping into Bitcoin, right that they're taking they're, they're, they're, they're fighting it and they're building new, new tools to make sure that that doesn't happen.

And there's there's others that aren't as afraid of that.

Yeah, I think the other, the other element.

I mean, I certainly reached the point where I stopped looking at Bitcoin in, in dollar terms.

I think I know that's, that's one that you, you often talk about that penny did drop for me, but it's something that I'm actually still guilty of is value investing in, in public equities.

And I have this issue where like I will look at the investment and I'll go, well, there's this huge opportunity cost of just not buying Bitcoin at the moment.

Why would I do this?

And admittedly, certainly in more recent times, there's been like a, without sort of giving away the, the, the, the, the public trades that I'm making.

But like Bitcoin has been an underlying characteristic of those investments.

So I've kind of felt OK with it.

But even then, like I know this is crazy.

Like what am I?

What am I doing?

I'm still playing in this, in this Fiat world that I've like been determined to leave, but it's almost something fun about it.

I, I, I'm kind of curious because I, I know a few people like this as well that, you know, we'll just kind of treat it, treat Bitcoin as part of a portfolio and, and have it necessarily like they, they accept that there is this Fiat world and there's a world of abundance that we could go to, but don't bridge the two.

They want to kind of live in a hybrid intermediary state in between the two.

And I must admit, like, even for me, there's, it's almost like there's a vortex.

And I'll stick my head through the vortex briefly, have a look around, come back to the, the, the safety and security of the Fiat world.

Then maybe I'll stick an arm through and and the head and then I'll come back and just kind of goes, yeah.

So, but Andy, let's explore, let's explore that in in the same relation as what we just did.

And then you can also see why we are so insanely early, like so insanely early.

You run a podcast in Bitcoin trying to teach other people about Bitcoin and you still have a hedge in Bitcoin and you're spending, spending.

I can't tell you how much time, but I will bet you it's probably upwards of 80% of your time in other system thinking about other system news, everything else within probably more, right.

If you're being really honest with you or if you're yourself.

I had to do the same thing and I still measure that time and I'm not 100%.

Yeah, yeah, I try to be, but I can't.

But but, but, but I, but because I realized the story I'm telling myself in just playing that game, having a hedge doing doing this was was a hypocrisy in myself because I couldn't straddle both worlds because the, there's only one that can win.

Yeah, right.

So the, the, the systems are opposite.

You either have the free market and prices all fall or you or you have a control system that is a a totalitarian control system where surveillance and capitalism and everything else.

And every moment I'm in this surveillance state is making Bitcoin weaker every moment.

And every moment I'm in Bitcoin state and trying to invest in helping entrepreneurs build the next layers of privacy and everything else And on, on all, all, all the layers is extending by a lot my energy and my time into the system I want to.

And I could only see that with with hitting that hypocrisy in me, right.

When I say ego death, I, I, and I don't mean to anybody needs to do this.

I'm not preaching that they need to do it.

I just, I'm telling you my own experience and me going through the exact same thing that each person has to go to and then and, and then, then you'd have to ask you like, I know, like Gigi and I are close friends, Pete's and Madeira right now.

Gigi's all in, right.

And, and, and, and like all in consciously like all, all in.

And, and the amount of things that he's extending through sovereign engineering and touching, touching other people who are touching other people and, and, and what that looks like, it's so staggering.

It's so powerful that he's seeing a different world emerge out of his out of his actions.

And it's just as true for him as your version of your truth would be for you and and your and the ability to stay.

It's it's those people.

It's not me.

Yeah, right.

I mean to talk to that maybe.

So I was going to say like because obviously I'm, I'm in Madeira right now.

I'm actively at Sovereign Engineering and it's, it's been like the most wonderful experience to just spend, you know, like a month here amongst a group of people who are actively trying to build that future of like, you know, hope, truth and abundance and remove these points of control and surveillance and coercion that exist all throughout the Internet.

And it's, I kind of view like it's been really hard to describe to anybody in like, you know, parents from school, like why is why is Pete in Madeira?

And it's like, oh, you won't get it, but him and a bunch of friends are going to try and fix the Internet.

And it's like, ha, ha, ha, ha.

You know, what does that mean?

It's like, no, no, we are, that's, that's what we're here to do.

And there's all sorts of amazing things that are that are happening right now around, you know, like how you fix issues of IP privacy and spending, like different ways of interacting.

Like the, I think there's this like naive view of Noster as being like a, a social media network.

And it's like, no, no, no, no, no, we have widely distributed public key cryptography and we're going to build all sorts of things on top of this.

And they're going to re change like how we built the Internet.

It's going to be amazing.

But but everybody is pulling in that direction.

It really is like that future.

It's amazing.

Yeah, so, Pete, this is what I see see too.

And it's really hard to explain to somebody.

Just I'm going to give a different analogy back to the victim analogy.

If you walk in to talk to a victim about what the world looks like and that victim is so sure what the world like, love and belonging is all around you, right?

And, and you're trying to get it by by trying to create a drama to pull people closer to you.

They are so convinced that their reality is real that they'll push away everything that they had, that that is all around them all the time.

If you come in and tell them that, what will they typically do?

Because they won't see your reality.

Yeah, right.

They'll see their reality and it's real for them, right.

So what they'll typically do is double down on drama and create more and more to get people to come back to, to and all the while get error and error narrower view of their own perspective of reality.

So why I wanted to tie tie it's easy to see in other people.

It's really hard to see in ourselves.

It's crazy hard to see it.

So in your view of reality, Andy, your view of reality, Pete, your view of reality, my view of reality.

I, I didn't know my own view of reality is until I took the leap all in Bitcoin, until I went and spent time in Madeira, until I went and spent time all over the world in doing this and investing in this.

There is no way I could have seen the view of reality I have today.

I couldn't have seen the beauty.

I couldn't have seen how fast this is expanding.

I couldn't see all of the things, all of the incredible people that are expanding this.

I would have believed in my own nonsense.

I would have believed, I would have believed in, in, in, in, in a, in a different state that that this wasn't going to happen, that this was, this was harder to achieve, that Bitcoin had risk that all of these things because I would have been measuring it not in it, right.

So, so that's, but it's also why this is going to take so long because each one of us has to go through this, this path.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's a, it's not a one, it's not a one year path.

No, no, that's a shame.

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's so we, we talk a lot about AI on this podcast.

Me and Andy work a lot with different like AI agent systems and automations and different ways businesses can take advantage of this.

And like we've always seen this as like the three things that interested us where AI, Bitcoin and Nosta.

And I always kind of like lead with AI, follow with Bitcoin and then Nosta comes along for the ride eventually because it's, it's too abstract for people at the moment to get their heads raised.

But like one of the things always happens.

I'll, I'll explain like where we're going with AI and what we can do these days and what the likely impact is.

And a lot of people will tell me like, oh, crap, like that's going to have a big impact on my life.

It's going to change.

Like my job, it's going to change like how I run my company.

What do I do?

I don't think I can take advantage of this.

I'm not techie enough.

And I will often say like, Oh, you buy Bitcoin.

And then they laugh and they say like, I don't know what you mean, Like what's Bitcoin got to do with this?

And I'm like, right?

And then we sit down and I try to explain it.

Totally.

And I don't know, I'd like, I feel like when I do that, it's like, all right, you need to go and buy this book called The Price of Tomorrow.

And it won't talk about Bitcoin.

It'll mention it like right at the end.

But it's going to explain like how we map this all back to, yes, what this is, is like this massive, like productivity and deflationary forces, just like coming down at you like a fire hose.

And you need a way of dealing with that.

And like Bitcoin is the best way of dealing with that.

So I guess I've always wondered if you have like, do you have like a refined speech these days for like how you get that message across to people?

Or do I just keep pointing people at your book?

Like what's?

I I think you say it over and over again.

Here's one of the things that I just, I'm so blown away with seemingly smart people.

And again, this comes from their filter bubble.

And I'm just talking Elon Musk, I'm talking Andreessa, and I'm talking all of these people, the heights of finance and wealth, saying these words, saying AI will drive a productivity boom that will repay the debt.

It's insane.

It couldn't be more insane.

The productivity is faster deflation, right?

Meaning meaning you have to manipulate money faster to keep the debt based system intact, right?

The the all of it is true.

Yeah, I think exactly.

But the productivity should be faster, faster falling of prices which only Bitcoin can measure.

Yeah.

Right, The the productivity boom should be faster abundance for all humans on the planet, which only Bitcoin can measure because any other system can't allow deflation that any other system has to steal that productivity at an ever increasing rate, right?

Why the, the, the exponential rise in debt is the mirror image of the exponential rise in productivity and everybody's measuring and what's happening.

And of course, they're fearful of what's happening in AI because what they're really thinking is what are my kids going to do to be able to keep up with rising prices that I'm making rise with all my actions within a system that demand it, right?

And they're not taking agency for that.

So they can just move their time and they can move to the time.

And when, when we talk about what's like, if you just touched on some incredible pieces there with, with how you're thinking about AI, which is not known, right?

With, with, with Noster, with the private public key cryptography, you can create an agent that is, that is, is a Noster key, right?

Is a Noster pub key.

And that agent can be a narrow agent.

It doesn't need all the giant LLMS.

It can be free, right?

It can do 1 task narrowly and it'll be, it will be better than all the other agents at the one task.

And then you can marry another task and another task and another task.

And though because of the private public key cryptography, they can't be influenced by the big LLMS kind of putting them all together and, and take and so, so, so now when when I say prices fall to the marginal cost of production in a free market, you have AI moving to free, right?

And they, and they, these small agents will be way better, better at the narrow task than the big LLMS.

And then you'll, you'll put a swarm, you'll put a swarm of them together and sorry.

And every and every single thing you could teach a human, you can teach these, right?

There isn't anything outside of this.

So it, it and then it'll merge with robotics.

And so you'll have this already exists, right?

So the division of Labor in humans is, is taken because, because we're, when we practice something really deeply, we get better at it than other humans, right?

And, and we can narrowly accomplish facts, the same thing as being played out in AI.

And you've started at these giant models that can't work to do everything right because of the because of the really the physics in that it's just too they can't work the way they're designed today, but they can work by breaking them into small, small chunks and putting putting them together.

So the same thing, same way we do things, division of Labor is happening right into right now and it's already, this already exists like the the it's the AI is by far, by far the worst it'll ever be.

Yeah, it's one of these not evenly distributed yet things, right?

Because I, I mean, I have my own agent system, which I call Wingman.

It runs over here on this Mac mini that I brought with me.

And he will, I can, I can address him from anywhere like his.

His tagline is Salvatore Ambilando.

So it's solved by walking and the idea is I want an agent that does the work.

I don't want to sit in front of this bugger and tell him what to do and have him in a chat.

I want to give him a task and go out for a walk around the place and he will walk in his own.

I can trigger him from Nosta DMS like we have like the whole thing it's just.

Yeah.

And I know it's already there.

Pablo gave me a really great thing on on his and he didn't realize because all of his different agents, he didn't realize that when he when he told one of the agents to do something that the the IT was, he told one a different idea than a different idea.

And when when his overall agent came back, kind of his universal agent watching these said which did you mean right?

You said this one time and that he didn't realize it was his own thing that he had to sit with and go right.

It's my until the agent pulled it out and he said he had to take a pause and really think about what he meant before he But then once he once he said it, all of the agents now know his new knowledge.

And I, I do like what you said about the, oh, what's the word, the separation of tasks and division of Labor, because this is, so we've talked about this a bunch on the earlier episodes of the podcasts and everybody kind of assumes that there's going to be this one big winner for AI and it's going to be this one big model that does the thing.

And that's what AGI looks like.

And we forget that like we already have like this weird disconnected super intelligence in the world.

And what it did is it specialized narrowly and then invented systems and networks and money as a means of trading amongst itself to get something done very quickly.

And it's been very efficient when it's taken over the world.

And it's like, I don't think this goes a different way.

And we already see a lot more of these, like smaller models, whether they be like, you know, can be trained to do like a GitHub pull request is like a classic example.

Or it could just be like a translation model or a transcription model.

And you can, as long as you can knit them together, you can already create pretty amazing things.

And they're better when they act on small tasks.

Like the big problem is like just giving one big thing lots and lots of knowledge and it just gets confused and the hallucinations come out.

And so I've, I've always felt that the answer here is not really a, we need bigger, bigger models thing.

It's this is really now a tooling question.

And I see it because I create these tools that make these things better on the daily.

And I'm like, oh shit, like if I can do this, like somebody that knows what they're doing could do this, like it's going to go along with it.

Totally and and, and and and that expert knowledge that like the giant LLMS have it might learn on your local computer with your knowledge, but you're not an expert in all the different tasks, right?

So, so and you'll make mistakes, but but individually, some of these, if you could put the best expert mind inside the narrow tasks and then constantly challenge, challenge those and then string those together.

That's exactly, that's exactly where we're going.

And it means abundance for every single person.

There is no one giant AOL model that's going to rule the world.

Even the energy going into some of these models, I just don't see where the I don't see where the economic value is that can pay them back for for the amount of they're spending on these because prices are collapsing.

Sorry, do you think this is like a, like what you're describing is actually like an archetypal example of like operating in the Fiat paradigm, like open AI can come along and say, OK, we're pursuing AGI and therefore we're going to raise another $60 billion.

And Anthropic can say the same.

And then there's just this giant base and the record that their unit economics are basically terrible.

Like these are not like efficient businesses in any way, shape or form.

They're just taking hoovering up as much venture capital as possible and then just throwing that at at training runs essentially.

So, yeah.

Would that exist if we were all operating under like a Bitcoin standard?

Like would that necessitate more efficiency?

Would the business be forced to find the more efficient use of capital there?

It, it won't exist anyways because all of that debts and all of that money is getting repriced in Bitcoin, right?

So so it it only looks to be working because it's based on unlimited money that is going to keep on the the people are trying to make a return inside the system that they're getting a return.

If you just hold Bitcoin, that's higher than the return, right?

Yeah, right.

Yes.

So, so, so, so it's all not going to exist anyways.

Like it's just so nonsense.

But but you guys have probably, well, maybe Pete, you're not.

But remember 360.

I was going to say you're too young to remember, but.

I like that he thinks you're older.

This is good.

No, I thought you were older, Pete.

Yeah, but 360 networks and all of their in the fiber in 1999, do you remember that?

Yeah, I think the wild lane, all the transatlantic cables and sort of stuff.

Yeah, exactly.

Massive overbuild of build of fiber and these are going to be the wealthiest companies.

So we're, it's not that we didn't use the fiber or that changed to satellites, right as well, right.

Different ways of doing it, cheaper, better, faster, always emerge and the overbuild of how many, how much money went down to this and then it just collapsed because there was no one willing to pay for it, right?

Because.

Because what we're doing right now is effectively free.

Yeah.

The and and so the same things playing out right now at at orders of magnitude bigger in in people chasing AI models that it this is all going to be free.

I think, I think Harold Kupperman or Kuppi as he's colloquially know, made that same comment recently on a Market Huddle podcast.

But it was, is it like, yeah, you know, this, this is a huge build out of fibre cables.

Like was it useful?

Yes, absolutely useful.

But we spent too much money making it and then it was just bought up for pennies on the dollar by the people.

So they went bankrupt like I could.

I think you're right.

You could see the same thing happening here.

And it's very interesting, like the degradation of all the tools, like anything that gets popular, like Claude Code was way better six weeks ago than it is today.

It's it is an absolute idiot.

Right now I.

Can't do anything.

I just had to abandon it.

So I mean, I even there I use like I've now moved to Goose as a like a main agent driver for my wingman stuff because at least I know that they're not messing around with the system prompts and I can choose the models.

And then if they're not working, I just move to another one that's got different economics behind it.

But like more and more like I've used these things so extensively and I crave control over them.

And then soon we'll be moving to like, I know like a route to stack where you actually have different markets of people running this on their own infrastructure.

And we can again, we'll just have more access, better tooling to this.

And it's, it's all coming down the pipe nice and quickly.

It's going.

To be yeah, it's all because.

Why?

Because in a free market, prices fall to the marginal cost of production period.

Bitcoin enforces free market principles.

And that's what and that's what's happening in Bitcoin.

That's why the the you can have non custodial, you can have the risk free rate of return.

If people want to invest in all this other stuff and get a subpar return with all that risk, you do you, right?

But but you, you in the free market, which is Bitcoin, you'll see what we're saying perfectly.

While prices are falling to the marginal cost of production, including AI, and it's driving that process faster and faster and faster.

And as long as Bitcoin stays decentralized and secure, which you each or with each of us has agency in making sure that happens, and this is inevitable, it doesn't matter what other people want to price their world on.

Yeah, it's interesting.

So you got the.

Sorry, I was gonna, I was gonna just ask you a question on the back of that.

Like how do you consider the, OR how do you, how do you calculate the, yes, the training costs for these like newer models, like these newer frontier models, because the, the, the training costs appear to be growing exponentially in dollar terms.

And like, I guess the analogy I might use is like, that's just like upfront CapEx, like like building a highway, you build the highway once and then you know, the cost of every marginal user of that highway afterwards is essentially essentially 0 because you don't need to go and build a new highway on top of it.

But.

Yeah.

So the training cost is, and this is, This is why the free market is so competitive, because people are taking bets on the training cost.

They're going to have a model that they can monetize over and over and over like a highway, right?

That is.

And they're, and they're free market actors with tons of money on a belief system that looks like that.

But as soon as their model exists, then it becomes open source.

Somebody copies it and moves open source, right?

And it's everywhere and they have no Moat to be able to price it like that.

And and then another one comes in that's better than that one.

And it keeps on happening and it keeps on.

And so this belief that they're going to have all of this money forever because they have, they control the world's information is a flawed belief, but they believe they believe it.

And, and, and there's so much and there's so many investors that believe it because they don't know what's happening.

In a free market, prices fall to the marginal cost of production.

And then out of there, you have these same, the same models and see the same companies trying to scare the public so they can regulate AI, right?

So that you can create a regulatory mode so you can keep, so you can keep pricing high, right?

So nobody else can compete.

So the, the entire thing is, is from a belief structure.

And you'll have all of this money feeding into we have to, we have to save those people.

So you can regulate AI and you'll have governments believing that too and do that, but it won't matter anyways because this is going to the free market is stronger, right?

People will, if, if that exists and that looks like it, people will find a way to these open source models and then do exactly what Pete's doing, train their train their own agents.

And then there'd be thousands, hundreds of thousands of these agents that are better than these models and everything else and they'll be free.

There is no way.

It's just a belief that these, that these, and, and why would that belief exist in their short term?

That really would exist in the short term?

Because, because a model comes out and it's so much better than going to Google that a whole bunch of people spend $20.00 a month and it grows really fast.

And then you project we're going to win it all to the OR without what I just said.

And and you can convince a whole bunch of capital to come in and say, say that to train these same thing in the energy that goes into, into training these models for some time.

There is going to be a massive overbuild and tons of people building these data centers And so and such as everybody's going to chase the same trade.

But but unless there's end user demand that pays for this at, at at that type of cost that can can pay back that CapEx and there won't be end user demand for the long term then then that you you've already lit that money on fire.

Yeah, it almost sounds like in that context, the the lure of AGI is almost like a a carrot that gets dangled in order to keep the money, money tap turned on.

On fire, I think both the law and the fear of AGI are used.

Both.

Discriminately like that.

Yeah, yeah.

So I think, yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that we've talked about a lot as being like where we see the impact of this, again, is not so much that there's this one big model that creates anything.

It's that it becomes a very like widely distributed resource that everybody has access to.

And that when you look at that, what you have is this like real like enabling technology for the entrepreneur to say like, OK, I see a problem with society.

I can fix that problem and I can do it at a cheaper cost and therefore I can make money out of that.

Or I can take my existing business and I can make it much more productive and I can make money out of that.

And like for all of those, I think we look at it and say, but even when you do that, there's no Moat to what you just did.

And now everybody else can see it because you just did it.

And then they kind of come in and we kind of theorize this idea of almost like a value trap, we call it, where you could take like let's say a business, the business has 100 revenue and a 90 cost.

And you say, OK, I'll use AI and I bring my costs down to 10, which would be insane, but fantastic, right?

But it's kind of possible if you do it right.

It is possible.

Yeah.

And then you do that, you get, all right, so now I've got a profit of 90 from where I used to have 10, and my enterprise value goes absolutely through the roof.

And then everybody else looks at you and goes, Oh my God, we have to do that as well.

And then they fast copy you.

And then all of a sudden, the very thing that like major enterprise value go up like this just collapses it woof straight down the other side until you go back to that marginal cost.

And then the only way I can see anybody escaping that is what you've, what you've invented there is not, it's not necessarily the future.

It's not that you've invented a magic money printing machine, which is what it felt like on that first first day.

What you've invented is an arbitrage opportunity between now and the future.

And you can start getting the sort of benefits that you're going to have in the future that everybody will benefit from that.

There's really low cost, but you can benefit from them now and you need to move your money that you've got now into the future because the the other follow on effect is as soon as you do that, that's that's going to decimate like a lot of jobs.

And the answer to that is government intervention.

It's handouts, it's Ubi.

It's it's all the stuff that you've talked about in the price of tomorrow, right?

And but Bitcoin is this nice sort of like punt out.

It's to say like, OK, that's the way I move from money from now to there.

It's like, how do I get into the future where everything is is cheaper, but how do I take the money that I've got now over that, that sort of thing?

Yeah.

And and, and so that your, your framework, you're exactly right what you did, what you just described.

And then when I say the prices fall to the marginal cost of production, I used to talk about calculator apps all the time, it's because the first calculator app came out, it cost a bunch of money because it was competing against the Texans instrument calculator and, and those first.

And then they they got better, better, cheaper, cheaper.

And now calculator apps are free, right?

Completely.

And well, well, there was a penny a profit.

People, people built them and then and then they became free and the entrepreneurs went and solved a different problem.

So what would that mean in the free market?

That every time you remove labor prices fall more for all of humanity and and you can only get paid, paid by providing value to somebody else.

The more value you provide, the better you do.

But then the the Jeff Bezos is quote, your margin is my opportunity is, is, is if you have high margins, then you're going to be attacked by everyone right in in this model, you're going to be attacked by the entire world trying to provide more value than you are.

So the only way you can stay in front of that is constantly by delivering value to society.

The only way you could make more Bitcoin in time is by delivering value to other people.

And everybody wins by, by, by that action.

It just continues to happen.

And it happens at a faster and faster rate.

My my son, who five years ago, I said you need to learn two things.

He's now 19.

You need to learn Bitcoin and you need to learn AI.

Yeah.

And, and, and I want you deep diving into this.

And I spent lots of time in cycles with him.

Well, he has run, he runs an AI company right now where he, he builds agents for other companies and helps those companies, some big companies and, and business was, was growing fast.

He's doing his business.

And he said, well, I just want to create a, a front end for my business because I don't want to make the calls anymore for the, for the, for this.

So he has an agent that's researching the right type of customers that's dropping in all of the executives of and everything about them into, into, into the database.

Then he has a different one sending an e-mail to the different different people and, and a different one measuring the response rate, the e-mail and changing the e-mail.

Then he created a different one for linked for LinkedIn.

At the same time as the he found out that at the say, if he sends a LinkedIn and e-mail called e-mail, the response rates were way higher and it's a different message on LinkedIn.

And these things are all coordinated.

He, he has a pipeline that every day he has a whole bunch of calls for, for new customers and he never even touches it gets better and better and better and better and better.

And, and this entire thing is just agents running in the background getting and, and, and, and adjusting and having conversations with other people in a, in a coordinated fashion.

And that's a, that's a tiny little example, right?

Tiny little example of, of, of what's happening today.

And you have a, you go into, that's why I'm not on Twitter anymore.

I know you guys aren't either, but, but most of Twitter is just these bots.

People are having these conversations with these people that they think are people and and they're this.

Yeah, it's kind of nuts, right?

Because if anywhere, like Noster would be the place to have your bots, because they could have a fully sovereign identity with their own pub keys and private keys and stuff.

But yeah, like Noster is the place that the real people hang out and talk.

Totally, totally.

Although I did for my Sovereign engineering demo.

I guess last week I created a a troll bot effectively called.

It was based on the early 2000s R&B garage star Craig David.

And the idea was he had a famous song called 7 Days where he meets a girl and then they Make Love for four days.

And the idea was like, Craig David's probably having a better week than you.

So let's go and review your last seven days of content.

And we pull all your seven days and we summarize what you got up to every day.

And then it will go and like pull all that off Noster.

And then it writes a like a a rap song of you versus Craig David over the week.

That's hilarious.

It's hilarious.

And then you post it to then it creates, it downloads all your videos and all of the images that you've posted on Nosta.

And then it uses like ffmpeg locally on the machine to then put together a video summary of your week with the song overlaid on top of it.

It's a bit slapdash right now.

So I ran it in the demo session on like Gigi's week just sent me back to him.

So he's got like a little over week of review of what he's been up to with the great David.

That's awesome.

But like, I mean, but you could do that, but you could do something useful instead of that.

Yeah, totally.

Well, when, when, when you think about what what Apple does naturally on your photos, right, They use this version of that on your own photos, Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, like the Google Memories sort of thing.

Like this is like all of a sudden we could do it, you know, from all your public data that you've been sharing.

I mean, one of the other things.

Sorry, Uganda, No.

No, go on.

I was going to.

I was going to say a bit of a shield to a friend.

Jesus.

One of the things he built was this thing called Context VM.

So MCP servers are one of the big things inside AI at the moment.

And like his realisation was that one of the things you could do with MCP is that it specifies A protocol that's kind of like remote Jason, remote Jason RPC.

So how do I tool call other things from this program?

But it's agnostic to the transport protocol.

So he made Nosta the transport protocol, which means that now you don't need APIs, you don't need to like send servers.

You could just spend something up on your computer and give it a public key and then somebody can talk to it and you don't.

So all of a sudden, like the infrastructure is addressable by public key, doesn't need IP addresses, like just maintains like web socket connections.

And you have these tools just available anywhere.

So I, in that demo, I ran the whole thing again from this Mac mini.

There's no, you know, I'm just in a, an Airbnb.

There's no fancy networking going on.

And it's like, it's like, all right, I'm never using an API on git.

Like everything is pub key addressable?

That is so cool, right?

Because because those are, that becomes a foundational layer of something that's completely different, that's unstoppable.

Yep, right, exactly.

I mean, there's, there's work going on here around like just making the whole Internet stack just pub key addressable.

But it's just, it's what you're not going to be able to stop anything.

It's amazing.

Like I was, I met all the Tollgate guys.

I thought Tollgate was just paying cashew tokens for Internet access.

And then I think I talked to them and a couple of hours later I was like, shit, this is massive, this is going to be amazing.

But sorry, Andy, what were you going to go on to?

I was going to change gears a little bit.

I'm cognizant that we're kind of approaching time.

But Jeff, yeah, I wanted to ask you about obviously your work with Ego Debt Capital now as well.

You guys have raised 100 million fairly recently as well.

So congratulations on doing that.

I'm curious about it, like partly in the context of, you know, obviously focusing on building the Bitcoin ecosystem, but also, you know, given what we've kind of describing, is this like this value trap for businesses as well and how that changes adventure, but also how it changes your portfolio companies and how they actually approach raising capital.

And, you know, part of the way we've been looking at this initially was probably out of panic because we're just like, how do we try and get as much Bitcoin as possible?

And it seemed like the vector to do that is the business.

And so, you know, you might want to raise once and then allocate to a Bitcoin treasury and then use AI to keep your OpEx fairly minimal so your headcount doesn't need to, you know, scale as traditionally as it would with each successive rounds.

I'm curious to to find out more about how you guys are approaching it, what you're seeing.

OK, so and again, because it's so different, I start with, you know, my thesis, right?

The natural state of the free market is deflation.

Prices follow the marginal cost of production, and that means everything you do has to compete in that framework and your value, if you try to create massive margin right, it will be taken from you right after that.

So you're going to constantly have to compete against what I just said and use tools, AI and everything else to get better and better and better so you could deliver more value to everyone else.

The existing private equity model, venture capital money on the other stack is exactly polar opposite of what I just said, right.

And why they need precede seed ABCDEFG and then they're still not profitable when they go public and dump their shares on everyone else is because it looks like that for that.

It's all it's all this trade.

And I remember doing some of that kind of and you're, you're trying to hype the company, right to get to the next stage.

We we haven't yet, we will have, but in all of our portfolio companies that we've funded, we haven't had a failure.

Many of them are already profitable and growing extraordinarily fast in Bitcoin every month, right.

And so, so I now a different framework holding Bitcoin.

Imagine being in Venezuela.

And one doesn't like if you were there for the last 20 years or last 16 years of Bitcoin, you had a choice to stay in Venezuela on that or take the US dollar or take Bitcoin.

Let's say you chose I'm going to I'm going to move my currency into the US dollar.

And you just protected against in from U.S.

dollar, which was losing value too, but you protected from a crushing devaluation of Venezuelan Blvd.

You would appear to all those people who got crushed and and you had the US dollar, you would appear brilliant.

If you if you put it in Bitcoin, you wouldn't be in Venezuela anymore, right?

You would be somewhere else and you would be extraordinarily wealthy.

But now let's just use that U.S.

dollar, for example.

Instead of just holding the US dollar, you created a business that that creates value for others and you get paid more U.S.

dollars.

That would be certainly a way better bet than just holding the currency, right?

Right.

And you would look way, you'd look crazy brilliant against the person who just held the currency.

Now go to what Bitcoin is.

Now instead of just holding Bitcoin, you create a business that provides value that you accrue more Bitcoin.

What would that look like?

And so I can't believe people can't see this because everybody lives in Venezuela today, everyone and, and, and, and even if you're just holding Bitcoin, you're essentially, yes, you're a part of a new model that's, that's prices, all prices are falling.

So you'll do extraordinary.

But what if you could actually expand the market by building companies on top of that and by by providing value in Bitcoin?

And you both accelerated the adoption of Bitcoin because you helped other people.

You you brought them out of this crushing totalitarian surveillance state because you developed tools and privacy and everything else that was going to help them.

There would be a massive market for that to acquire more Bitcoin, right.

Yeah.

I can't believe people can't see it.

So I feel the.

So yeah, it's it.

And I actually, I can believe they can't see it because they're measuring it from a different system and they're not in it, right?

They're not in it.

Their fear is paralyzing them and and such.

So when you're in it like you guys are too and like Pete is sovereign engineering one as you're talking Pete, it just makes me realize I got to get back there soon because because, because when I went last time, I was just go wow.

And when you see what's happening, you just want to be part of this all the time because it's so it's so emergent and it's happening at such a scale.

But it's meaning, meaning our venture funds by how do we have to think?

We have to think long term about the founders because we're it's going to be a long term play with the founders because they're going to have to reinvent their business over and over and over again to provide more value.

And and it's a different model of how you think about the the world, very different model of how you think about the world.

So I always think there's like two things that I've seen with Bitcoin fans.

1 is that like the Bitcoin VCs aren't allergic to revenue in the same way that traditional VCs are.

It's like, no, no, make money, make money like be and then put it in Bitcoin like that's, that's fine.

That's the exit that we'll do.

We don't need to just dump it on somebody in the future.

And then the other one is this notion of like the reinvention, because I think this is what we've talked about a bit with this.

Like it's, it's almost amazing.

Like the entrepreneur looks at that and goes, oh, fantastic.

I don't have to do the same thing for the rest of my life.

I can just keep doing new stuff that solves problems and getting paid for it.

I think it's very frightening to a lot of people where you've been kind of bred into this, this idea that I'm going to have this like, I just do like this type of spreadsheet like 8 hours a day.

And then I have these roles and I go through these processes and this is what I do going into the future.

And that's my job and I've got a place in the world.

I do think a lot of that is going to get disrupted.

And I, I, I, I don't know, I wish there was a good way to kind of bridge people into this different way of thinking to say like, look, if you, if you can view it as an opportunity and you've got all these new tools that are going to that, that, that make you into like a Superman of like entrepreneurship, you can learn to use them, but it's, it's going to be quite impactful.

I think that.

Yeah, and the output of that is at least in Bitcoin, is in Bitcoin gets distributed more and more around the world.

It like when technology does the job, we shouldn't have to have higher prices because the job's gone, right?

Yeah, prices should fall as in in a complete unison with that path happening.

And that's what Bitcoin is measuring.

So you there would be No Fear, right?

There would be No Fear from this new, new world because you're you have to.

So your life gets better even if you don't do anything.

Yeah, because everybody else competing in a free, free market, your life continually gets better forever.

But if you provide value to somebody else, you you you can't win more of the pie without providing more value.

Yeah, it's it's almost like the the natural state of things should be that you work and then you stop and you don't worry about eating because the food just gets cheaper and cheaper.

And the only reason it doesn't do.

That is.

Somebody is stealing all the money.

And then you work less and less and less.

And then, and then it gets harder to and, and, and well, there's still problems in the world.

There's more opportunities forever to solve them for other people and get a little bit more.

It just, it works perfectly.

It's just, it's just, we've never experienced what I, what I'm describing.

So it's really hard.

It's really easy to measure what I'm describing from your experience and not believe it could be true.

Yeah, I mean, having sort of been living in this world for a little while now, I think similar to you, Jeff, Like it's, it's definitely there.

It's just hard to describe to people that this is this is a fantastic place and we should go over there.

The jail, the jail cell door is opened.

Just come join us, yeah?

Yeah.

And, and, and what you see is what you see reflecting back at you and all the people who are living in that spot is they're already living there, right?

The future's already here.

It's just unevenly distributed, Correct.

They're already, they're already experiencing this.

You know this for sure.

It's not.

In other words, if your model of reality is correct, you should be able to explain things really simply.

Yeah.

Right.

If you have to keep changing, no, that's this reason.

That's that's the reason.

That's this reason.

So my model of reality is prices should fall, right?

Free, The free market is more competitive.

It's in service of everyone.

And if Bitcoin stays decentralized and secure, that's exactly what I should see.

It's exactly what I see and it's and and and and and.

We are all connected.

And the more people added to that system, the faster that process process happens and the more healing that world is.

Everything I see from that perspective matches what I would expect to happen from that perspective.

It's it's only if I change that perspective and go back to this other world that nothing makes sense.

Yeah, because it's that sort of, you know, if I measure it in dollars, then nothing is getting cheaper.

It's like in the wrong system totally.

It's so easy to see right like, like, and I've said this on many podcasts, but you could explain the entire economy to a 5 year old.

It's so easy.

We compete with each other to provide more value.

All money is.

It's an abstract concept for our trade of value, and when you can't cheat it, then the more people added to that system, the faster prices fall.

Yeah, I mean, I but my kids get your.

Economy, that's the entire.

But again, of course a kid would get it because a kid isn't afraid to ask a question.

That an adult has been so locked into a belief that they're not smart.

They're not smart enough to ask a question around economics because those PhDs have developed a system that is a reinforcement of of a system based on credit.

Yeah, yeah, it's the the moment when you keep saying that, Daddy, if those people are just stealing money from everybody and they took half the money in the world, doesn't that make everybody poorer?

And you're like, yes, it does, yes, like I said, but are people mad about that and be surprised the telly says that's not happening.

So this, I don't know, I don't know what to tell you.

The world's strange, but you know, take your pocket money in Bitcoin and you'll be fine.

Totally.

All right.

That's been a great, a great time.

I think we're coming up in about an hour.

So is there anything that you want to say before we sign off, Jeff?

No, just really great seeing you guys and really great.

Pete.

It's been too long.

Pete, you're going to get together sometime.

All right, Sam, well, you know, we've got a couple of weeks left.

You should head over to Madera for the final demo.

So.

We'll see what we can do.

I won't be able to because now I'm counting my days in the US to make sure I'm a tax resident here and not pulled back into Canada.

Yeah, there's probably good reasons for that.

I think, I think I heard you talking about this with Danny on what Bitcoin did as well.

Like is there like what's what's your is Miami home for the foreseeable or is?

For, for the foreseeable, it's probably a, a transition step to where you guys know this, especially Andy, you know this being in Australia, but the, the world is going to be a chaotic place in different, in different regions are going to have different rules and then those rules are going to change and, and laws are going to change and like H1B visas are going to change and different things are going to change and it's going to create more and more chaos and most people are going to move back into the chaos and blame the chaos.

So you just need to, to, to be able to have Peace of Mind, you need to have flexibility.

And I can move really quickly.

I can, I can have sovereignty.

I can move my Bitcoin anywhere in the world.

I can get on a plane.

And, and so, so just to be able to do that, I wanted to design more flexibility into our into our lives to with what's inevitably coming.

Wise words.

Yeah, yes, I feel like Pete and I've been talking about this for, I don't know, six years or more.

I don't know.

It's been a while.

I my, my, my, my tax lawyer called me and he said actually he said one of the top tax lawyers in Canada on the kind of the exit taxes and everything else he says.

I actually, he said, I'm proud of you and I go, I know that sounds weird, but he goes the number of people I talked to that talk about this forever and ever and stay stuck and, and you in less than 30 days had everything set up, trusts everything else and and just made the decision to make it.

And I'm not saying that that wasn't hard.

Family structures, moving houses, all, all of the other.

So there's so much that goes into that, that, but, but if you're going to make it kind of you have to make a choice or make a choice not to make a choice, right?

And if you make, if you, if you make it, because either one's a choice.

And so if you're going to make the choice to do it, then you need to make that work, right?

And I'm not saying it's easy, but you just to, to design flexibility.

Now you have to, OK, what are the other costs of, of that flexibility on, on, on relationships and everything else?

And how do you make sure that you don't lose those relationships?

And what does that look like in, in that, in that path too?

So, but lots going in obviously lots going into it in a 30 day period.

Yeah, that's well, well done for pulling that one off.

All right, well, let's start.

Let's hit stop recording.

So that's the good stuff.