You know, on this show I've been asking a lot of questions.

Now here is a question, a question for you.

Remember, the answer will start with a cue.

And the trouble is, the answers to my questions don't start with a cue.

I'm asking why didn't Sesame Street have many prominent female characters?

But I'm also asking why did some female characters work and some didn't?

And that means I also have to ask, why are female characters excluded from so much of television?

And I guess also, why are women and girls discriminated against in culture as a whole?

It's kind of exhausting, and I wish I could just be like Grover and answer a cow and call it a day.

Oh, OK, come on, cow, let's go home.

But, you know, I really want to ask these questions, and I have to start somewhere.

And as Sesame Street told me, asking questions is a good way to figure things out.

So let's start with why did some female characters work and some didn't?

Because today we're discussing Prairie Dawn, arguably the most successful female character in the early days of Sesame.

Prairie is the only female character who has consistently appeared on the show for over 50 years, debuting in 1971 and still appearing in new episodes today.

So what made Prairie work as a female character, or more importantly, as a character at all, when her doppelganger Betty Lou feels so abstracted all the time?

There was one person who I thought I should ask, and that's Stephanie de Bruzzo.

Stephanie is a long time performer with The Muppets, joining Sesame Street in the early 90s.

That's not to mention her work on countless other projects, including but not limited to Sesame Workshops, Helpsters, Henson's Wobulus, World of Doctor Seuss, Fred Rogers Productions, Donkey Hodie, and Broadway Darling Avenue Q.

Basically, Stephanie has spent a lot of time helping develop female characters in addition to playing Prairie Dawn herself since 2015.

So this week I sat down with Stephanie to discuss this question and a whole lot more.

Honestly, I won't waste any more of your time getting ready.

I'm Becca Petunia, and let's get some questions answered this week on A Prairie Dawn Companion.

Ladies and gentlemen, the Starlight Hotel takes great pride in presenting the world's favorite 6 year old entertainer, Miss Prairie Dawn.

Come on girls, girls, girls, let's go do girls stuff.

Can you play a song with a beats?

All right, so like I said, my guest today is Stephanie de Bruzzo.

Stephanie de Bruzzo is, of course, a puppeteer who has worked with The Muppets for a long time at this point and as well as an actress and so many different things.

Stephanie, do you want to introduce yourself real quick?

Well, you kind of said a lot of it.

Hi, I'm Stephanie Dubruzzo.

I'm a I'm a multifaceted performer.

I perform on stage with and without puppets and on little screens with and without puppets and on a big screen only with puppets so far and voice overs and singing and writing.

And I've been a multi hyphenate since 1993.

So yeah.

Yeah, no, you, you were one of the people that I was most excited to talk to because, because obviously I'm a big fan of, of your work with The Muppets and without The Muppets.

But you also are just someone who is so knowledgeable and and so interested in just having kind of like the the kinds of deep conversations that that I was really hoping we could have.

So you were, you were very high on my list of guests I wanted to talk to.

So.

It's a very nice way to say opinionated.

You know, I was really trying.

I was really trying.

It's very graceful.

I appreciate that.

Stephanie for for anyone in the audience who doesn't know, and I guess I'll have already introduced this beforehand.

I didn't record my little pre interview introduction, but you have been with Sesame Street since the 90s if I recall correctly.

Yeah, My, my, my, very, my very, very, very first day was as a, as a background puppeteer on the 25th anniversary home video.

We shot that in June of 1993.

And my very first day on Sesame Street was was November of 1993.

So it's, it's, it's been a good long time.

And you know, over the years you've you've helped develop some some female characters with the show.

You've introduced some characters who boy, since I'm going chronologically through things, we're not going to get to a full episode about Elizabeth or Curly Bear or Lulu until until a little later.

But you introduced those characters and you've also, since 2015, if I recall correctly, you have been, you have been the the second Prairie Dawn taking over after a former guest of this podcast, Fran Brill, retired.

Fran Brill, yes.

Oh yes, so you have a really a really unique perspective on like what makes female characters work.

And one thing that I always.

Considering that I have some dead characters, I wouldn't necessarily say Lulu, Elizabeth, Curly, Bear, they're all dead.

I don't know if what makes them work, but I'm sorry to interrupt you I'm.

Trying to I keep trying to, to, to, to to hype you up and.

No, no.

Oh, I'm the first person to, you know, tell it like it is, but please continue your thought.

I have I I apologize for for interrupting.

Well, I was just going to say and, and, and making characters funny and and enjoyable to watch is definitely something that I that I think you're good at And what we're it's don't worry.

It's not just going to be the Becca compliments Stephanie de Bruzzo podcast, although I don't know, maybe that's what you want.

I.

Mean I'm not complaining, but then I wonder what you're trying to sell me at the end.

Is it Amway or is it supplements or?

I actually have a.

Or.

I actually have a timeshare.

Oh gosh, yeah.

But, but you know, one of the things we've been looking at on the show so far is the, the many sort of like, I'd say attempts and I'm, I'm doing finger quotes that you can't see, but I'd say many attempts at sort of like making a, a female Sesame Street muppet.

And you know, in in season 1, there was Betty Lou who we did a whole episode about how she isn't really a character.

She's basically just a utility puppet with.

Was it really Betty Lou per SE, though?

Well.

That's the interesting thing.

She is called Betty Lou in season 1.

Really.

He's.

Called Betty Lou in season 1, but.

Who's voicing Like who?

Who's puppeteering her?

Who's voicing her?

Is it Frank doing his?

Little girl almost always Frank doing that.

Little Girl pro.

Yeah, it's basically piggy, right, Right.

Piggy voice, Yeah, is.

That this is this ATV studio?

Yeah.

Yes.

Oh, exactly.

Yeah, It is almost always that there are some distinct character traits if you want to force it and think too much about it, which is what I've been doing so.

She's Betty Lou, but she has the braids.

She has a little.

Pink.

It's the little pink with the braids and it's the same yarn braids.

Right, right, right.

OK, distinct from like Prairie has like realistic hair.

Or right, right, right, More.

Realistic hair and and so but but there's not much in the the way of a distinct character.

Fran takes over as Betty Lou in season 2 and weirdly, Betty Lou is only in one street scene or excuse me, she's only in one episode where she's in more than one street scene right between 1971 and 1993.

So.

Wow, yeah, I seem to remember her only in inserts.

And it's funny because my memory of Betty Lou and you have to remember I'm born in 1971 and they weren't repeating the street scenes.

So my only recollection of Betty Lou is going to be from inserts.

And I always thought, and I'm sure that this is not factual, but I my thought growing up was that Betty Lou and Prairie Dawn were cousins.

And it was like that city mouse, country mouse situation because the Betty Lou was more of the like had the overalls and the braids and Prairie had the dress.

And so that was my interpretation of it growing up.

Well, that's that's so much and again, so much of so much of what?

What I'm hoping to to explore because it feels like a lot of what you're even saying there comes from books and I don't know if you had like the Sesame Street books growing up.

I.

Didn't have all.

I had a couple but not.

I mean, no one had all of them.

There were thousands of them.

Right.

Yeah, No, I mean, I think like kids I know had some and I mostly had the records, although I didn't have all the records.

Sure.

I mean, there were thousands.

Yeah, exactly.

And I think kids I babysat eventually could.

I started babysitting at 11.

Like they had books.

But yeah, like I'm always curious as to how much Canon there is in the books, 'cause I know that some books were written by some of the writers, but a lot of them weren't.

Sure.

No, absolutely.

So it is this interesting thing, but certainly there isn't much in the way of a consistent character or or really with like any depth.

And then there was other than that.

As far as like female Muppets go, you literally only had Roosevelt, Franklin's mother.

Who?

Which was voiced by Loretta.

And is wonderful.

But it's just Roosevelt, Franklin's mother and granny.

Means to an end.

Yep, exactly, and Granny Fanny Nestle Rd.

Who?

I don't know how familiar you are with Granny Fanny Nestle.

Road heard Carol talk about her but.

It's not.

Really anything you know the name is more.

Memorable.

Well known than the character.

Weirdly, we really enjoyed I I had a guest on to talk about that last week actually, and we kind of enjoyed her.

She's basically like if Mr.

Noodle could talk, but she only lasted from 1971 to 1973.

And wasn't that also Carol?

It was, it was actually Jim originally and then and then Carol took over.

So what you're really seeing is in in 1971, you know, and specifically the the first, the first the time we see Prairie Dawn, I actually went and checked the dates on is January 13th, 1971.

Wow, I wasn't born yet.

I was born in December of 71 so.

There you go.

I also wasn't born yet.

Well, yeah, I know that.

But I think there are people who think I'm older than I am, which I get, you know, embrace your youth.

No, no, no, listen, I don't.

I don't.

I don't.

I don't look at.

It's no, no.

I don't.

I don't take it for granted at all, but.

In care, you know, SPF always.

You know it.

I'm, I'm, I'm the one who's always telling, asking all of my friends like, hey, have you guys put on sunblock?

Oh yeah, yeah.

Parasols.

Parasols, man.

Parasols are the best.

Yep.

So in 71, we, we first, we first see Prairie Dawn and I, I, I talked to Fran a little bit about that.

But one thing that I was really fascinated with with these early Prairie Dawn sketches is compared to so many of the other characters, it feels like you do have a strong sense of what Prairie's personality is pretty early on, which I was glad to see.

Yeah, I had forgotten how erudite she was.

I'd forgotten that this was a character.

That and I'm sure that all must have come from the fact that this was a purposeful attempt at a character.

You know, I don't think Betty Lou or whatever the Betty Lou was pre Prairie was not thought out.

It was just an anything muppet that they happened to name Betty Lou and, you know, coming after someone's niece or sister or what or mother or what have you.

So like in the early days, like Grover and Cookie and and and and Bert and Ernie, well, maybe not Cookie, but like Grover and Bert and Ernie and Big Bird and Oscar and and the count was, you know, predated and and I mean, sorry, the count was the season before that.

And no, was the same season.

I'm sorry, no.

No, the count, the counts counts actually after this.

Well, OK, so, but I'm sure it was being developed around the same time.

Sure.

Oh yeah, I know.

They're all very close in time.

And obviously again, like unfortunately we can't know the the like exact full history, you know, no.

No, no.

But but I mean I'm saying if they're both in season 2, they're doing pre production on season 2 simultaneously.

Yeah, absolutely.

Characters are being thought out, you know, now that Cookie Monster is called Cookie Monster, they're like, OK, we're going to create these new characters.

There has to be something to them.

So thought is being put into Prairie Dawn at this point, and I mean, I'm guessing again.

Yeah, we can only, we can only guess.

And again.

But but based on the other characters that were being introduced at this time, you know, Snuffleupagus and there is there is purpose behind them.

They are not just a means to an end like Roosevelt Franklin's mother or the five people in my family or, you know, any of the anything Muppets with the interchangeable pieces that are just there to play the role needed for the insert.

So absolutely.

Yeah.

So I did.

Did Fran, did Fran talk about having input on the character, or was she just at the mercy of what she was given in the script?

You know what what Fran talks about and obviously part of the thing, and, and I'm sure you can understand this is I wonder obviously how much Fran remembers because there's a certain point where it's like, A, this was 50 years ago, B, it was just her job.

You know what I mean?

Like, yeah.

And.

That's what I'm saying is I'm guessing.

Yeah, and one thing.

Wasn't consulted.

And one thing that we talked about, too, was that Fran didn't even really think of puppetry as her as her full main job.

Yeah, which I mean, I know, you know, but but one thing that she she did talk about was that it very much was her her trying to figure out what this character would sound like based on what the character looked like.

And it was a conversation about that.

Obviously other people were writing the scripts and while there's certainly some I'm, you know, I'm sure there's some ad libbing going on because they're almost always is some this, this absolutely this stuff feels very specifically written.

But yeah, it's a little tough to know how much you know.

And she she takes credit, obviously, or has taken credit for the name Prairie Dawn.

Because she was just little girl before.

Yeah, well, it's it's actually interesting.

The first sketch she appears in is the the one with Sherlock Hemlock, who had also debuted this season.

Right.

Yep.

Sherlock Hemlock sees all.

Hello.

Oh, I didn't see you.

What do you suppose has been happening here?

Has something been happening here?

Oh yes.

Indeed.

Look, there's all this stuff on my friend's lawn.

Stuff on the lawn?

That sounds like a job for Sherlock Hemlock.

Let's look for clues all.

Right.

I sent you some clips and the Sherlock Hemlock one.

The Sherlock Hemlock one I cut short because halfway through it really just becomes Sherlock Hemlock listing things.

Yeah, she's Penelope in that.

She's.

Referred to as Penelope and then she's referred to as little girl for a while and then it's it's it's not until like April, so like four months later that that they actually start calling her Prairie.

But again, there there is this consistency too.

And even if that consistency isn't tied to the name, and she is little girl in some ways the same way as Betty Lou was just little girl, right.

That first thing that I, I I'm, I'm so glad you pointed out is that fact that her thing at first was that she was very erudite to use the word that you used.

Yeah.

There was this whole thing where it was like she used these, like, $10 words.

Yeah.

That then the adults would basically translate.

Well then, it is my lucky day.

It is most advantageous that you have encountered us.

What?

Oh, she said.

It's lucky that.

You happen to be passing by and met all of us right here.

Yeah, I, I found that fascinating because I don't obviously that had gone away a little bit by the time I was watching the show.

Yeah, as far as the translation of the words, but I really like that and I've always tried to, I guess I haven't really.

I didn't really connect the dots to that, but I just know that she is well, she's always been well spoken like always.

That's that's remained, but I think the level of erudite has diminished a little bit.

Certainly the translation went away.

Yeah, and it's, it's, it's something we see go away.

You know, again, I sent you a bunch of clips just from the 70s and it's something that I think we, we do see go away, you know, by, by the pageants.

And that's what I'd really love to, to, to talk about is like that doesn't feel like an element of the, the pageant structure, but that sense that like she's, she's smart and she's very particular and.

You know she's she's quiet, but not.

Not meek.

Yes, exactly.

Exactly.

She is scared of mice.

That is true that that comes up twice that she's scared of mice, but I I really liked that and that felt really interesting as as I mean, again, like obviously I'm I'm I'm a fan of this character and I I mean I'm a fan of all The Muppets, but but Prairie is my favorite.

And a lot of that again comes from obviously later stuff And some of the the really, really funny stuff, especially in the the 90s, like singing in the rain with Grover is the one everyone always sites.

But like, it was really refreshing to to see a, a kind of character that I felt like I understood after, you know, doing 4 episodes prior to this where I was like, I don't know.

And then this this time Betty Lou is this time she's performed by Jerry Nelson.

And she she wants to build using a hammer.

And it's like, yeah, So it was, it was really it, it, it, it was, it was definitely a relief to kind of catch up.

Like after doing these 4 episodes where I didn't understand what I was talking about.

It felt good to be like this is this is it here and you know.

Some of that some of that's just the consistency of having a single performer performant, like you said, if you have a character that sometimes is performed by Frank and sometimes performed by Jerry and sometimes maybe even I don't know, you know, in other cases, there were characters voiced by Marilyn Sokol and puppeteered by one of the guys or, or even Carol or, or, or in the case, I mean, that happened later, but Roosevelt, Franklin's classmates, you know, being voiced by Sonia and Loretta.

So to have that consistency of character and have Fran interpret this little girl, even if she didn't have a consistent name yet, but to, to, to, to take the look of Prairie because that that that was the same puppet, right?

She didn't change except for, you know, the she didn't really that that that little Prairie puppet didn't change much.

They.

Unsewed the handkerchief which which I'm glad about.

Yes, yes, well, yes, it could have been worse.

It could have been gloves and.

Yeah, she has a for those.

I mean, again, like this is an audio medium.

She has a handkerchief sewn to her her left hand in the first like 10 or so appearances.

The the, the, the video quality is so like, you know, you have to remember.

Yeah, I mean.

Definition television on a 13 inch screen.

Back then, no one was even going to see that handkerchief.

I never.

So I'm going to say I never noticed it until when I had Fran on two weeks ago.

Fran mentioned Prairie's handkerchief and I was like, I was like, there's a handkerchief.

And then I then I went back and I was like, boy, there sure is a handkerchief.

Yeah, I've never noticed that.

That's hilarious.

But but going back to the consistency of the look of the character, handkerchief notwithstanding, if if Fran is, you know, and Fran's new to puppetry and so she's establishing this character.

And one thing that Fran is very, very good at, you know, she comes from theater and you are, there's a consistency required in theater, right?

Because you rehearse and rehearse and rehearse to get to a point where a show is locked and then you have to maintain that show.

And I know that there are different schools of thought on actors who like to shake it up every night.

But if you shake it up every night, it's a House of Cards and can come tumbling down.

There needs to be a certain amount of consistency.

That's not to say you're doing it rote or or robotic or, you know, not mindful, not being reactive, but they're does need to be consistency of intent.

And Fran made Prairie very consistent, and I think that consistency and nailing that feel and sound helped.

Now you've, I mean, and that's, that's such a great point.

And obviously, like, again, this this ties into to some of some of your background, like when you when you get or when you got Oh, that feels mean to phrase it that way.

When you got new, new, new puppet characters like we were talking about, like how much when you you know, with, with Elizabeth and Lulu and Curly Bear and also like your characters on other shows, you know, on, on Don Quixote on Wobbulus world on, you know, on oh, helpsters, How can I forget the helpsters?

How, how do you go about sort of developing like a character?

Were you given sort of the, the, the freedom to design, you know, to develop the personality your way?

Were you just working with a script?

Like how did it feel for you?

And obviously this was 20 years later, but like what was what was that experience like in that case?

Well, it's different every time, you know, And in the case of Elizabeth, she started out as just a one off anything Muppet who showed up at the end of a script.

It was an episode where Jerry Nelson had a little boy character named Jerome who moved to Sesame Street, and the whole street scenes were all about him meeting everybody on Sesame Street.

I believe it may have been one of those shows that was the first episode of the new season where you're basically reintroducing yourself to the reintroducing the audience to this neighborhood, right?

And Jerome is talking about his friend Elizabeth back home the whole time.

And at the very end, Elizabeth comes to visit him.

And I didn't know what the puppet was going to look like till I got on the set.

All I saw was the I mean, she had two lines, right?

Hey, Jerome, I'm here.

We're visiting and like I love this place or something like that.

So when I all it, there was a parenthetical, it said loud, right?

And then I saw what the puppet look like and I knew.

I knew exactly how it should sound.

Hello everybody.

It's me, Elizabeth, and I love numbers.

I love the number four and I love the number 9.

I love the number 3 and I love the number 732.

Now what will happen sometimes with anything Muppets or one off characters is you'll you know when you do a read through before you block and and tape the the scene.

Sometimes a producer or the director or whoever will say, can you try this or can you try this?

And I'd been on the show for five seasons, but nobody really knew who I was, at least as far as the producers back then.

We're concerned.

I think again, I'd been there since 93.

This was in 97.

Yeah, this is in 97.

And I think after I did that scene, Michael Loman introduced himself to me.

So.

So, you know, I was I, I just was like I was, I was I, I, I swing big, right.

If you know anything about my characters, I take chances and and, and part of that came from, Oh gosh, this is not going to be a direct answer to your story at all.

So the, the, the beauty of doing, if I hadn't gotten the webulous World of Doctor Seuss, I don't think I'd be here today at all.

That, that show, I got to do 40 different characters and, you know, new characters every week and consistent characters.

And I was doing what I love to do right, doing big, bold, strong characters.

And we had a lot of autonomy on that show because we were so small.

We were being shot at the same time Sesame Street and Muppets Tonight were being shot.

That's the only reason I even got to audition is because there weren't all the, all the quote UN quote good performers were already working on other things.

So like I, I never would have even gotten to audition if it had been in production at any other time in any other year.

So it made me, I don't want to say it made me brave because I've always been brave on stage.

I've always been brave as a performer and in real life I'm not.

But if I have permission to perform, I take chances, I swing for the fences.

So I had the experience on Seuss of like, hey, I loved it because I love to do it.

I genuinely love it.

It feeds me.

It is the air that I breathe.

So to do a loud character on Sesame and take that chance was just already in my bones.

To a small degree.

I hadn't thought about it being a risk at that time because, I mean, really, what did I have to lose?

You know, you either do it or you don't.

The one thing I can't stand is, is uncommitted characters like the wimpiness.

It's one thing if your character is being played wimpy, that's a strong choice to be played wimpy.

I'm talking about someone who's just not sure of what they're doing that, that, that that comes out.

It doesn't matter how good a performer you are if you're not committed to whatever you're doing 100%.

That's just weak.

And then again, and that's so much like what you were, what you were saying, you felt like you could notice with the, the, the early, you know, France stuff here, you know, again, obviously we can't read her mind.

But like the there was a sense of like, this is the character that we're doing.

We are committed to this character.

And it's we're, we're, we're not, you know, we're, we're sticking with it.

And and yeah, I mean, again, like that's that's one thing, one thing that that that I can say about, you know, again about Elizabeth is Elizabeth is a, is a choice.

You absolutely made a choice.

You know, again, she is not, she is not a, a, a character that is unrecognizable or could be anything else.

She is a choice.

And, and so I was lucky that then there were other scripts with other anything Muppets, and they started plugging Elizabeth into those scripts.

I think there were like 3 or 4 of them, maybe three that season and they instead of it being just another anything muppet or monster, they made it Elizabeth, which was amazing.

And then the following season they started writing a couple of episodes with her specifically, which was like Dream.

But there were people who, you know, I always got a sense that there were people who didn't get why she had to be so loud or why she had to be so her.

And my feeling is, well, we've already done the sweet little girl.

We've already done this and that and the other.

We don't have anybody that sounds like this.

So there are little girls who sound like this.

I always feel like I hate that it becomes a fight, but my fight is always I and they have to fight so much because just to be different, right, To present a different version.

I had that a little bit on.

Seuss got challenging because there were a lot of little girl characters and I didn't want them to sound all the same.

And Kathy and I, Kathy Mullen was the puppet captain.

So, you know, she got first pick of whatever the script had that week.

And I was happy to take the leftovers because I was just happy to be on the team.

But when I got other little girls, I was just trying to find a way to make them a little different.

And so Megan Mullally versus Heather Tidbiddle versus Sue Snoo.

It's subtle, but it's, you know, yeah, it, it, it, it's it's hard.

So I'm, I didn't know it takes time to learn what you have in you and also you are the, the look of the character really does dictate the voice.

So I was always trying to go with, you know, I always say that a great puppet character is a, is a, is a beautiful marriage between the writer, the performer and the workshop because it's the look of the character meets what the character is saying, meets how the performer is both voicing it and physically manipulating it, how it's moving, how it's walking and how it sounds.

I mean, that's so right, because again, like other if it if it that wasn't true, then it wouldn't be puppetry, right?

Like right.

The the, the reason the puppets exist and have designs is because that should be contributing to the performance.

You know, and the and the reason that things have writers is because that should be contributing to the performance.

Well, and not just that, when you have thoughtful people at the workshop who are putting together like, so for example, on Webulous World of Doctor Seuss, especially the first season, one of my favorite characters was a character named Admiral Breeze who showed up twice and her very first line was Hello Sailor.

And the shop made this beautiful buxom platinum haired, full lipped, just just glorious puppet.

And I knew it like my my suspicion of how she should sound absolutely was understood by the shop.

The shop never heard what I was going to do.

That puppet was brought to the set.

I didn't know how it was going to look.

And like somehow we were all on this like are we?

We had all vibed.

I don't even know who at the shop put her together.

I don't know if it was Raleigh or or Mary Bremer or I don't know who, but I I do know that it was like one of those glorious moments where it's just like, oh, I know, I know what I'm doing here.

And it just feels so good when it all comes together.

And it was a choice that I hadn't done.

I hadn't done a character like that before.

I hadn't played a character like that before.

I hadn't used that tone of voice in a character yet, so it's fun to discover those things as you go, but it always comes from the look.

It always comes from the look of the character, and if you're lucky, it matches very hues very closely to what the writer has envisioned.

Sometimes you're not on the same page and you have to find a way to make that work.

But this So then you have to think like I played recently there.

Well, I guess it was probably pre pandemic.

It was maybe 2019.

It was just a little couple line thing.

It was a check out clerk at a supermarket on Sesame Street.

And I just assumed that she would be, you know, kind of sleepy eyed and bored and, you know, OK, blah, blah, blah.

And she had no eyelids, and she just looked like she'd been caffeinated.

So then it turned into.

OK.

Yeah.

What?

Whatever.

Thank you.

You know, And it was a better choice.

It was.

AI didn't have many lines.

It was just, how are you today, you know?

Did you find everything you needed?

But the look of this puppet gave me an inspiration to do something funnier and make a choice with the voice.

So.

Yeah.

So.

So.

So Soos we didn't have time to sit and talk about except, well, maybe except for the main characters, but not even that much time.

All those one off characters, it was, you know, just go right.

And there was like a different one off character every week at.

Least almost.

Sometimes multiples, sometimes multiples.

They were whatnots, right?

So they were being put together constantly and but yeah, and and and Cody.

So jumping way ahead to Cody on Helpsters.

I mean, my voice may have evolved a tiny bit.

I think I was trying to make her a little raspier in the very, very beginning, but it falls into whatever is comfortable, right?

Because it's got to be comfortable.

The, the, the one thing that I established a very long time ago is never, it can never hurt because if you, if you trash your voice, you're dead.

You're gone.

You have to take very good care of your voice.

It is not.

It is no character is worth losing your voice over.

You have to find a way to do it safely.

And, and, and that is something, you know, we were talking about sunblock earlier.

I believe that was, I don't remember if that was on mic or not, but voice care is also something I take very seriously.

So I, I'm, I'm right there with you.

For folks at home, if you learn one thing from this podcast, it's to drink lots of water, do your vocal warmups.

But also, it took a long time for for me to learn how to do a raspy voice placed not in the throat.

I can do raspier voices now that don't hurt, but that took time to learn, so I didn't.

I again, it was just a matter of time.

And yes, some of that involved warming up or knowing how to yell without trashing.

So yeah, you, you, you.

But it has to be something that you're going to be able to do easily.

It's kind of like, I remember a long time ago, I was having an issue with my hair and I had a hair stylist that I only went to once.

She's like, well, you can make your hair do anything.

And I said, really?

Because I don't think so.

My hair is going to do what it's going to do.

It's like, no, no, you spend enough time on it and it'll do what you want it to do.

And I'm like, yeah, it doesn't work like that.

And I think it's that way with characters.

If you're trying to do something forced with your voice that your voice doesn't want to do, the performance is going to sound forced.

It's got to be natural.

The vocals have to be natural and the performance has to be natural.

And those are two different things.

People always just talk about, oh, the voice, oh the voice.

It's not just the voice, it's the breath, it's the cadence, it's the intent, it's the, it's the emotion, it's the drive, it's the spark, it's the intensity or lack thereof.

It's the breathiness.

It's the this and the that and a million other things that have nothing to do with sheer vocal quality or even placement.

And boy, am I off track.

But.

Oh, so, yeah.

And then and then Don Quixote.

Oh, God bless them for giving me a long leash.

They liked what I did.

And they let me, you know, with Harriet Elizabeth Cow, because I grew up in Pittsburgh, I wanted, I was not sure what I was going to do with Harriet when I went on set.

I, I, I had not, I don't think I had done an, a voice audition for Harriet.

I had only done a voice audition for Duckduck and interestingly enough, my voice auditions for Duckduck night.

I did 2 voice auditions and I wound up doing a blend of both of them.

Once I saw the puppet and put on the puppet and that came pretty quickly.

Harriet, I wasn't sure what I was going to do.

And the very first episode I did with Harriet is not quite what it wound up being.

But I did want to do a Pittsburgh dialect, and I know that in preschool, dialects are sort of frowned upon.

But because it's Fred Rogers Productions, which is very tied to Pittsburgh, there's a lot of Pittsburgh pride that comes from it.

They let me do it, and slowly but surely I have made it more and more.

The Yinzer has been more and more intensified over the three seasons of doing the show.

That's only help Donkey and 'cause I think, I think in the beginning I thought, well, I need to make her a little not prim, but I I held back a little with her.

And I think that only lasted a couple of episodes.

But then COVID hit, so I wasn't out there performing it as much.

So it really wasn't only until the second season that I was actually really able to have a lot of fun locking in the full gregariousness of, of, of Harriet, the full Yenser package.

Because I think I was still, I may have been trying to do 2 things with Harriet, trying to make her because because I didn't know what all the scripts were going to be yet.

We didn't have them yet.

So I the, the, the character description of Harriet early on was that she was going to be more of an advisor, right?

More of an advisor to donkey, a neighbor who was and and she is that, but I think we accomplish it in a different way than it seemed spelled out in the early days.

So it was less, I don't want to say motherly, but like, you know, teacherly, I suppose was the early way that, that, that I thought she would be approached.

And now it's just like, no, she's just her own being who happens to give good advice, which is always a better way to do it.

So again, I'm still making mistakes and learning from them decades into this career.

Again, really long answer.

No, no, no.

I mean, listen, I'm happy you gave a really long answer because that was all super interesting.

Like I also, I also knew that that's where like that again you your very opinion.

Wait, what was the phrase I used at the beginning?

I don't remember, I just know it was a nice way of saying opinionated.

Yeah, but let's let's let's bring it back to to some of these in particular because I really do want to talk about sort of again as as this character.

And again, I think we can agree this character's starts with a really strong and specific basis.

But as this character sort of very quickly becomes what we, what we think of when we think of Prairie Dawn, you know, in, through, through so much.

And you know, within, within three years, January 16th, 1974, weirdly almost three years exactly from her first appearance is when we first see these pageants.

And Fran talked about loving doing these pageants and, and loving sort of the dynamic that it, it brought out between Prairie and the boys, as she called them, she called them the boys.

And you, you see some really, really good and really funny and really specific choices being made, you know, so I'm curious, like what were, what were your thoughts watching some of these?

We, we watched some of them.

I don't again, but the flower is the first one.

There's there's a couple others in the 70s.

But I wish you'd included the the tooth one.

That's my favorite because that's got the whole thing about her doing the monologue at the top about.

This play was written by Bert and it was directed by Bert, and if you love the play you can thank Bert, but if you hate it, you have no one but Bert to blame.

That is such AI.

Don't know why I didn't include that in the clip compilation.

That's one of my favorites.

Not only is that just generally funny, I love, I love that that that kind of sassiness that comes along with it.

Like, you almost get the sense that, like, Prairie is kind of upset that someone else is is, is is Horning in on her territory.

Like I, I wouldn't call it that.

I I would say that basically Bert's in charge and she's just telling it like it is, you know, it's like.

OK, You want to be in charge, then it's on you and I'm going to let everybody know.

Exactly, exactly.

And that's such a such a funny choice.

And you, you see, you see in these two again, the the choice to make Prairie bad at playing the piano is really funny.

Yes, and I I mean, I didn't I never knew Johnstone, but it seems to me also like it's a Norman Styles or, you know, choice because again, you you got you got Norman Styles coming from sitcom and the you know, the best sitcom characters have flaws.

Right.

So you can't have.

So the best thing about a perfect little girl is making her imperfect.

And now it is time for our drama to start.

Whoops.

And and, and again you, you see that and, and again.

That's why I love the the rudeness that comes in the tooth one.

And again, boy, I should have sent you the tooth one, but I didn't have to because.

You didn't have to.

I, I Oh my goodness.

I watched that all the time in college.

No.

I remember one of my favorite Sesame records was Bert and Ernie sing along and they're singing a song about the man who has plenty of soft peanuts has given his neighbor none.

He shan't have many of my peanuts till his peanuts are gone.

He shan't have any of mine.

He shan't have any of mine.

He shan't have any of my peanuts till his peanuts are gone.

And Prairie sings a verse the.

Man who has plenty of sauce sweet soda crackers has given his neighbor none.

He shan't have any of my sauce sweet soda crackers.

Still his sauce.

These photo crackers are done.

He shan't.

Have any of mine?

And then she's like, you guys going to sing, you know, because nobody's joining in on the chorus.

And that felt very like, that's Fran.

Fran imbuing Prairie with the attitude of come on, guys, we're all supposed to be singing this chorus.

And I think that some of that came from being the only girl in this room full of guys, and she's got to be responsible and you're not playing along.

I'm going to call you out on it.

Yeah, I mean, again that that absolutely.

And got it so funny because again, I was going to send you the clip from Bert and Ernie sing along as well.

It's on my I have a master list that I made and and Stephanie, I I put way too much work into making this master list.

But I now have a list of every single clip with Prairie Dawn and every single album and book from 1971 through 1979, which was not maybe not the most productive use of my time.

It makes you happy.

But but yeah, I, I love that.

And one of the things that I love about the fact that she's on the the Bert and Ernie Sing Along album in particular is to me, that always felt like sort of like a a statement of purpose that like Prairie was definitely part of the main gang at this point, You know what I mean?

Like, yeah.

Well, and I mean you would be foolish to do these records without utilizing Fran's voice.

Because it's very good.

She.

She.

Came to New York to do musical theater.

Of course it's great.

And I think that, you know, some of the, there's so many reasons why and, you know, I think some reasons why Fran's not on certain albums may have to do with Fran's availability or lack thereof.

Sure.

I mean, she was.

Doing other things.

She was doing soap operas and theater and, you know, major motion pictures.

We we chatted a little bit about that as well.

The, the fact that Prairie, you know, sort of started mostly being an inserts from from like in 1974 through like the late 80s.

And that largely was because, you know, Fran had other, you know, other priorities as well.

And the, you know, I, we, we discussed it.

We've discussed it plenty of times on this show, but like the inserts were filmed separately and that let that gave that gave Jim and Frank a lot more flexibility with their recording schedule.

Actually when they were doing Muppet Show.

And they, you know, when they were doing Muppet Show, that's in another country.

Well, and.

Also, you could shoot back then, you know, you could shoot 6 inserts in a day.

That's a lot of content that gets repeated over and over again.

So you get a lot of bang for your character buck.

As far as presents on the show, you get a lot more bang for your buck being an inserts than you do in the street scenes, which at that time, even when they were doing 130 episodes, 120 episodes a year, would maybe air twice.

Never again.

And it's and but again, like, but that's why sort of like the reason that there aren't that many in terms of number Prairie appearances, but like she becomes this character who who sticks around is because these were all segments and these were all re aired.

You know, the pageant stuff was re aired, you know, again, and I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm younger than you, but like a lot of these clips were still airing, you know, even in the 90s.

Until the show went to high definition, they absolutely were still airing.

Yes.

And, and again, like, that's what I was watching, you know, again, was was then and a lot of this still stuck around and.

Well, then Fran was available as in the in the and then in the in 1993 when Zoe, you know, was created and and then she was doing Roxy Marie and Wanda like Fran had committed to the show at that point.

Yes.

And again, we we talked, we talked to Fran about that, that that shift.

So then you had even more inserts with Prairie?

Absolutely, absolutely.

And that's, and that's when you get the the wonderful, wonderful Prairie and cookie dynamic.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Which is which is my favorite comedy duo in the The Muppets?

Like the entirety of all of The Muppets.

I think the Prairie and Cookie stuff is about as good as it gets.

You cannot have a cookie.

No, no.

What can I answer that?

Oh no.

Oh no, no.

OK, OK me no panic meal.

Panic Prairie me going to ask you another question.

Why?

Why?

Why me not cookie.

Please look at that cookie.

Easy easy, easy cookie.

Monster.

Yeah, I know.

It always makes me sad that I, I missed out on that.

There have been no Prairie cookie bits in my tenure as Miss Dawn.

But then again, you know, I guess that was just very she did.

She did plenty with David, but I think that was also very specific to her and Frank.

Yeah, that that that dynamic and that friendship.

But but again, like the albums is another great example because that's what we we like you, like you said, like so much of this stuff wasn't repeated, but the albums were repeated you.

Know that's how I knew her name was Prairie Dawn.

You saw it on the cover.

I mean on the on the back of the album.

Exactly.

I mean, for me, for me it was books, you know, again, the, the, the old and I had a bunch of like the old picture books growing up, you know, even stuff printed long before I was born.

But like that we still had that like we got from the library and stuff.

And like, that was a major way that the character stuck around, you know, for for years and years until Fran returns to the show full time basically in 1993.

Yeah, I think at some point, you know, I suspect that the character was able to survive Fran's absence not just because of the inserts being continually repeated, but also she was starting to be on merchandise.

You know, there, I don't know that there were many dolls, but the books, the records, but also like, you know, T-shirts.

She was in the group calendars.

She was on the calendars, greeting cards, paper goods.

She had a presence there.

So once you have that presence, you know, I have come, I have come to realize that in order for a character to survive, you have to have something or someone championing that character.

It doesn't matter.

I've had to make peace with the fact that it's not necessarily all on my own shoulders in the performance.

You have to have writers who will write for that character, a head writer who will let that script be produced and not replaced that your character with another character.

Just plug in another character into that script.

Or you have to have, you know, popularity or licensing revenue or someone championing that character, whether it's coming from above or beyond or outside.

So because Prairie really was for a very long time the only girl, especially in the 70s, you had to have that represented.

I mean, it would, it would have been, it's the reason why Fran was brought on.

It's the reason why the character was created.

But you you had to maintain that.

You couldn't just you couldn't just get rid of that character after two years and say, oh, well, we tried.

You had to.

And and you know, what Fran did was so great.

And so I'm not saying that her greatness had nothing to do with it, but I'm saying that at that point they had Prairie.

So they're like, OK, this is our little girl.

This is our girl.

This is our female representation as far as The Muppets are concerned.

And we're going to go all the way with it.

And that's it.

And once you're once you're sort of in that character grouping, you're in.

Yeah.

Which is great, but then once you start having more and more characters added to the show, it becomes much harder to be part of that character grouping.

It becomes much harder to be in that photograph that represents These are the characters of Sesame Street.

Which was unfortunately so much like and, and, and again, like, I'm not, I'm not telling tales out of school.

This is something that that they've commented on, you know, like the, the, the Sesame executives and, and team and everything.

But like, you know, when you joined in the 90s and when Fran returned in the 90s, that was so much of the problem with the early 90s is there were like 70 characters.

Yeah, well, and I think that that's there's been an ebb and flow, excuse me, of characters forever because now, you know, in in the 80s they started introducing more characters because they started having Jim and Frank and Jerry and Richard were off doing other things.

They were doing Muppet Show, they were doing Fraggle Rock.

So they had to bring in new performers.

Well, they all weren't going to be doubling, you know, or having new voices for Bert and Ernie and the Count and all these established characters.

They were still going to have those core characters exist in inserts or maybe a couple of St.

scenes a year.

So they had to create new characters for Marty and Pam Marciero and Camille Bonara.

And you know what I mean?

You're not going to bring in new people and not have characters for them to play.

So you create these new characters and and you trying.

And also times change.

I mean, the show is an experiment.

So you try new things and you and and, and with those new characters or with with Bert and Ernie not being there all the time.

OK, so let's see, can we find somebody to bounce off of?

Like Telly becomes a character, right, Brian?

Because you have got Brian Neal, right?

And so Telly becomes a character and he evolves and then he starts having this relationship with Oscar.

And OK, So what other characters can interact with Telly?

Because you don't just want to have characters that only interact with one character.

It's a neighborhood.

You you learn so much about characters by having them have different relationships with different characters.

So then, yeah, you, you have telly and baby Bear's friendship and, and, and then baby Bear has a family, you know, you, you, you Kevin Clash comes onto the show.

He gets Elmo.

He wants characters to develop of his own.

He develops hoots.

He get, you know, you've got Humphrey and Natasha Humphrey and Ingrid.

Natasha, you've got David Redman coming onto the show.

You've got all these amazing performers coming onto the show.

They've got to do something.

So and we all want to work and we all want screen time.

And at that time, you've got 120 episodes to fill and you've got all these great performers and you don't have Jim and Frank all the time.

So hey, let's populate with new characters.

And then what happens is, and you have a million characters, OK, we got we got to get rid of a bunch of characters.

We're going to cut it way, way down.

And then the same thing happens all over again.

And so then you have great performers like Carmen Osbar coming in and developing Rosita, which was so, so necessary.

And you have, you know, hey, Fran's going to come back.

Well, we can't just have her play Prairie.

I mean, let's give, you know, also Prairie's an older character.

Prairie's six.

We want a character that's going to be Elmo's age, because Elmo is very popular.

Elmo is young.

We want to have somebody who's going to be Elmo's.

You know, a contemporary, so let's create Zoe.

You know, that's how.

And again, this is a very simplistic way of thinking about how characters get developed, but it's not an out there thing, you know, it's a very realistic thing.

It's production, right?

You've got a cast who wants to work.

You've got writers who want to write new things for new characters because then let's face it.

But one of the reasons why one of the reasons why Snuffy was seen by humans was also, yes, to believe children when it came to their truths and and and and and and abuse and whatnot.

But the writers also really got tired of figuring out convenient ways of the adults just missing Snuffleupagus.

That story gets old it that those relations.

It's better to have Snuffleupagus have a relationship with other characters on the street.

So, yeah, so the writers have more flexibility if they have more characters to write for, more character combination possibilities.

But then, you know, it's a cycle.

And every time, every time there's a baby on the show, hey, OK, you're going to do a whole thing about a baby.

We're going to have Baby Alice.

We're going to have baby Natasha.

And you're like, hey, we're tired of this baby.

We're not going to see this baby anymore, OK?

We need a new baby.

Hey, Curly bear.

OK, it's going to be a baby.

And what are we going to do with this baby?

And is she going to grow up?

Is she going to stay a baby?

I don't know.

We're tired of this baby.

We're not going to see this baby anymore.

Hey, Gina's going to adopt A.

Baby, you know.

What they did, what they did with curly bear is they just stopped using curly bear.

Yep, but you know they.

You know this.

Yeah, I do.

I do.

I do know this.

But you know, now, to be fair with Curly, I, I, I was, it was a little frustrating because there were some inconsistencies with how she played, especially early on.

In some scripts she wouldn't be verbal and other scripts she'd be saying sentences.

Sometimes she, you know, it would say all saying, you know, she would be babbling or just saying parts of sentences.

But then when all the Bear family was saying something, it'd be these, you know, this this song or something.

I'm like, well, she can't just sing this song all of a sudden in unison with this family.

So, yeah, you know, but you're at the mercy of a force that's bigger than yourself.

You just want to work.

And so you, you, you figure out a way to do it.

I remember there was a episode about the, the family trying to hibernate and they were trying to count sheep and and they it was like the whole family was counting 5670 one 5672 and I'm like, well, curly can't count this high.

So there.

So I, I didn't really ask.

I just did it and I guess they just let me do it.

But the other bears are saying 5671 two, 5670 two, 5673 two because I figured Curly could only count it too.

But that's a great, that's a great choice.

And again, to take it back to the conversation that you know, where we where we started, characters, characters are built off of choices and, and, and strong choices.

Well, and I was also trying to think like a writer, even though I hadn't written for preschool yet.

I've, you know, I've written in life and in my own things and things that may never see the light of day, but I certainly know how economical you can be with a character choice that you can say a lot about a character and it doesn't have to be a monologue, while also being very thoughtful about the audience and the curriculum that you're putting across.

So nothing I ever did or ad libbed was ever meant to do anything more than clarify a character or clarify a relationship.

I was always very lucky at helpsters that Tim McKeon gave me a leash to, you know, add little flourishes or or Cody as as originally conceived, was a very, you know, she had to put across a lot of curriculum and was a leader.

And but it was there was nothing really.

I, I, I imbued a lot of fun to it.

I figured if there's fun, if it's being done a fun way and she's aware of the bad puns that she's doing and she's deadpan and reactive and it could, it could be a little, a little lighter.

But I also added you're very welcome.

Initially it was thanks for the help, help stirs and then right to we did it everybody.

And I said, you know what I think Cody should say?

You're very welcome.

And I didn't ask.

I just did it.

And because what are they going to say?

Don't say you're welcome.

Don't, don't, don't, don't show kids that saying you're welcome.

But it is fascinating to me because after we did it, everybody, I think it was only the second time we did it that I added, yeah, we did after and then.

Oh that's such a good touch though.

Like.

Well, that because it was attitude.

I'm like, I want to give her a little spark, you know what I mean?

So that she's not just, I'm in charge.

Do what I say, you know, the B word, the bossy word.

I hate it.

But it's very easily gone there and it's related to Prairie and we can get back to this.

But.

But, you know, I, I really wanted to just give her a like, she's a redhead.

She she's got to have a little fire.

So the yeah, we did.

What was so funny is that if you were to watch the show Chronal, well, I don't know if it, I don't know if the episodes aired in the order in which we shot it, but.

Yeah, I mean, I who?

Knows you'll see a slow evolution in the yeah we did moment where some of the guys kind of say it with me weekly, like in the beginning they're just like, you know, we did.

And then by the by the, by the 2nd or by the third season, the the, the second production year.

Mr.

Prim's saying it loud.

Marty's saying it louder than I am.

Like they're all just like, yeah, we did like they came up with it.

I'm like, OK, I'll take it, I'll take it.

I'm glad everyone's on board with this.

Stephanie, I, I don't know if I've, if I've mentioned this, but during COVID, I was so anxious about COVID that for whatever reason, and you know, I was in my 30s at the time, but the only thing I could watch without panicking was the helpsters because it was just so rigid and predictable.

Yeah, yeah, that.

I mean, I liked that the format was fascinating to have a format that was sort of plug and play.

Yeah, but again, like, that was what that was the only thing my brain could, like, do early on.

You know what?

You were not the only one who was anxious.

Yeah, no, I.

Sometimes I think we forget it was just five years ago, but it's easy to forget just how terrifying that was.

But so that was, that was, you know, again, so like, believe me, I know exactly when you're like, yeah, you know.

And then Cody says, yeah, we do.

I'm like, yeah, no, of course, of course I know that.

Well, you know, not everybody.

Let's just say it's been made very obvious to me through my encounters with the world that not everybody has seen helpsters, and not nearly as much as you have, so it's fine.

I I know, I know that I'm an outlier for my age bracket.

There was a grin.

I am very old that you watched and no, I'm very grateful that you watched and enjoyed it.

I don't care why someone watches something that I do, I'm just glad that they watch it and enjoy it.

For folks listening at home, if there's one thing you should seek out, it's the soundtrack to Helpsters because you guys did some incredible stuff on that soundtrack.

Yeah, yeah.

We had some good, good songs.

Paul Buckley was our composer and we had some great artists come in and do stuff with us.

We had Guam.

We just had great guest stars, period.

It was a great, weird show.

And a lot of lot of like cool, cool musicians like on the indie scene and stuff like you would never see on Sesame Street.

And again, I don't mean that in an insulting way to Sesame Street, but it's a different crowd of musicians and.

Guests.

We had cool guest stars, and we had cool guest stars who were sort of bubbling under in the New York comedy scene before they exploded afterwards.

Michelle Bateau before she exploded.

Zach Cherry before Severance.

Holy cow, you know, like, you know, these people had done stuff and I was familiar ish with them, but like some of what these people were doing afterward and like what?

Wait, what?

You know, I can't I can't even begin to remember all of the people.

But we had some very cool cats come on our show, some great.

I mean, again, just really great comedic actors who got it, you know, so and, and, and and most of them had a really great time.

I mean, yeah, we had a, we had a, we had a good time with the people who came on to play.

But anyway, going back to that B word.

So no, no, So what?

You know, it's sad that there are people who see Prairie as bossy because I don't see that.

I see her as being a perfectionist.

I see her as being type AI, see her as just, we just want nice things.

She's smart and she just wants every everyone to actually, you know, give a crap and pay attention, which again, goes back to those pageants.

She's not coming right out and saying it.

She's just like, why are we doing this if we're not going to do it right?

And it and it shines through and I love, I love again that you're saying like it's not like she actually says it, but but the audience can tell.

And I'd, I'd like to think even children can tell.

You know, again, I'm, I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of when I saw these the first time.

And you know, who knows?

I was one year old or whatever, so I don't remember.

But like you, you get the sense that like she's doing this for the genuine, genuine love of it.

And, and she, she, she just, she just wants, she just wants her, her friends to be their best selves too.

Yeah, and she cheers them on, but it's not all about her.

And she's very happy when they, she's very happy when they get it right, you know, again.

Good job.

Yep.

Which definitely happens in these as well.

Yep, but when she does it's like.

Oh, come on.

Yeah.

Do you heal?

The snow, you know it's.

It's again, and it's, it's, it's amazing again, speaking about things that happen early, but like that dynamic with the the Frank characters in particular starts really early.

Well, that that album that that.

Cue here is a question, any question for you.

I love that.

Isn't technically isn't technically credited to Prairie Dawn on the album and in the in the sketch they used a different anything muppet.

Yeah, I know.

So really feels like a prayer, right?

Like.

No, I always thought it was Prairie and that she was just called little girl.

I had never seen the insert done so I was shocked when I saw the clip and it wasn't Prairie.

But I, I still consider that important because it is that, that, that, you know, that Fran and Frank dynamic that that again, becomes such a highlight.

You know, especially moving into the 90s, you know, starting there and you, you see the same thing, you know, in the she'll be coming around the mountain pageant where she like basically has to like take care of Cookie Monster and like make sure that he's doing the right thing and staying on track.

Hey Cookie.

What Prairie?

Don't you know how to go around something?

Oh, sure, sure, sure.

Can you sing again and me do it right this time?

It's sounding terrific, this is.

Definitely the.

Last time, here we go OK, which again becomes the whole dynamic.

So there's something very archetypal about it.

The problem is, most of the time you see it in pop culture, it's in buddy comedy movies, right?

It's the good cop, bad cop.

It's, it's it's Beverly Hills Cop, right?

Yeah.

You know, it's every movie where you've got the it's it's The Odd Couple.

It's, I mean, it's Bert and Ernie.

Right.

But it's not respected the same way as Bert and Ernie are.

It's Felix and Oscar, it's Abbott and Costello, it's Laurel and Hardy.

You've got the the person who you know is like, I know what I'm doing and the other person's just messing it all up.

Absolutely, absolutely.

And and again, like obviously I'm not surprised that you understand and appreciate it, but that's exactly that's exactly how I how I feel.

And again, whether it's whether it's, you know, we, we, you talked about how characters need to be able to sort of interact with other characters.

And I like that it's this slightly different dynamic with Grover and with Cookie, but it still kind of comes from the same place of like just wanting them to do it right, you know, And again, like Grover and Cookie have different faults.

Obviously they're very different characters, but it's that same it ends up.

In very different ways for very different reasons, yeah.

No.

No, no.

What was it me?

Was that off key?

No, no, Grover.

No, you were fine.

Thank you somebody else.

Yes, you see, it's this white stuff.

Yeah, this is not rain.

What?

What is it?

No.

It is white and flaky and cold.

It is snow.

So it's this what that good director she is, but it's that same idea of like just can we just can we just do this right?

Because this would be so good if we could just do it right.

This would be so good and everyone would be so happy.

Well, and The funny thing is, and I've, I've remarked on this now and then, but I don't know if anybody's actually really, it's sunk in for anybody.

But Prairie is so much like Bert, and I don't know that Bert and Prairie have ever bounced off of each other, because I think they're just too similar.

Stephanie, you know what was really I just watched the the the happy birthday episode.

Yes, that's the closest she came.

Yes, great episode written by Liz Hara.

And it was really funny because Bert, you know, Ernie's like, we need to get more of your friends here.

And Bert goes, I don't have any other friends, suggesting that Bert's only friends are Ernie, Telly and Prairie Dawn.

And I was sitting there and I was like, you know, we don't see Bert interacting with Prairie Dawn or Telly that much, but I bet he would get along great with Telly and Prairie Dawn.

Well, and again, I've said the same thing about telly.

Telly has similar neuroses to Prairie.

They're just, for lack of better word, executed in a different way.

They just come out in a different way.

Bert, Telly and Prairie are all neurotic characters.

Right, Which again, is what I absolutely realized watching that episode.

And especially when Bert's like, I don't have any other friends.

I'm like, oh, I bet they would get up to some some very, very neurotic hijinks.

Well.

Also, it would just be fascinating to see them all just be it an impasse because I, I mean, I don't know.

I would love to know what that dynamic would be.

I would love to improvise with Marty and Eric, with those characters and just see what would come out.

I'm I'm fascinated and curious, but I was, I, I remember I was just happy to, I was happy to be there.

I was happy to be in that episode at all.

And then this was more of an homage to to my pal Jen Barnhart.

But when she's at the back table, you know I needed a bit of business before.

I was about to ask you about this, what I think you're about to say.

I'm not going to be shy.

I'm going.

To.

Dip into this oatmeal.

I cracked up.

I'm just, you know.

Thank you.

I'm glad you heard it.

No, it it's just because so, you know, in a script you have so and so enters and asks a question.

Well, the character, the character that they're entering and asking the question of needs to be there.

But what is that character doing while they're there?

So, so much of what a Muppet performer does is have to come up with bits of business.

Either we are, you know, doing something or actively walking it.

We have to be active.

We can't just be standing there waiting.

You would never block a play like that where a character is unless it's, you know, play where that's meant to be.

Yeah, intention.

An intentional choice.

Intention right right so so it's easy to just say so and so enters Prairie is there like well what is Prairie doing while she's there so because we had Oh my God the set the.

Set is so beautiful.

Our art department under the lead of the great Katie Akana, who came to us on Helpsters, by the way, and then she brought her beautiful art department.

Oh my gosh, Aerial poster and Keith Olsen and so many wonderful people can.

That set was gorgeous.

It was so much to look at like.

And what I loved about it is it was a very, it was very Pinterest friendly, like I'm not on Pinterest, but it was very accessible.

You could have a Bert party and you could make all of those things.

I'm having a a BBQ for my birthday tomorrow and now I'm like happy.

Birthday.

Thank you.

And now I'm like, should I be making Bert hats?

I mean those Bert hat, the the the bunting with the little Bert shirts.

Oh.

So good, so good.

Oh.

My gosh, just all those little, tiny little things.

It was we were.

Yeah.

So so you have this beautiful set to look at and things to like.

Well, why?

Let's interact with the set.

Let's, you know, say hey, because there there was an oatmeal bar right at Bert's party.

Such a such a brilliant touch and.

Like, but nobody never talked about the oatmeal bar.

So I figured, OK, let's mention the oatmeal like you know, But yeah, the I'm not going to be.

I'm not going to be shy.

I'm going to.

Tuck into this oatmeal.

Dip into this oatmeal.

I don't crack up in this oatmeal.

I don't.

Remember exact wording.

I don't remember, but again, it's just that came out of necessity and they didn't, they didn't cut it.

They didn't make me loop it so you throw it at the wall and hope it sticks.

Anything else that that that you you want to talk about with regards to either the clips we sent or or anything else?

I don't want to.

I don't want to cut you short, but I also don't want to keep you here all night.

Oh gosh, no, I understand.

No, I just, I think I would, I would love to to I would love to know what conclusions we're drawing.

We're or we're supposed to draw from this and I'm I'm, I'm coming up empty.

That's a great question.

You know, what, what, what are we, what are we trying to say?

And I, I, I think it's, you know, I think that this is this, this project.

And, and again, I, I, I speak about the project as a whole and not just the episode that you're, you're here on.

I'm really just trying to to to put everything sort of in perspective because I'm fascinated by the fact that it really took, you know, we can we can talk about Prairie Dawn being this like well developed character and this character who who was part of the core gang, you know, on like Bert and Ernie's sing along and on, you know, and on in books and on on the posters and the photos of whatever.

But there there's this real sense and and again, like that, it really wasn't until Abby could dabby that there was a female character who was, as, you know, like who was as prominent as the other male characters.

I don't know.

I I would say that Zoe when she was.

True.

OK, yeah, but.

She was definitely put at the center.

It's your Zoe.

It's your Zoe and Abby for sure.

And I think Rosita is very important and also underutilized in many ways.

I think that Rosita serves an incredible purpose of the show.

On the show, she's an incredibly nurturing, loving character.

But she's older and I think.

I love Rosita, but I I feel like, I feel like Zoe.

I absolutely, I absolutely like accept like was was core.

You know, Rosita was in so many episodes, but you know what it was?

And again, it's like you were saying about like the merchandise.

There never was that much Rosita merchandise and I felt like that that that always made her feel less less focused on, even if she was in so many episodes at the time.

And Carmen does such a wonderful job with her.

She's brilliant, but she's brilliant.

You know, it's, it's interesting to to think about all of this and put it all in context has kind of been the project of this and thinking about like what what does work and why, why did like what things were was the show doing right in terms of female characters as much as what was the show doing maybe with room for growth, as we say in the education field with regards to female characters.

And it's nice to just focus on like what makes for a character that you would assume audiences would respond to and want to see more of versus, you know, a a character that whether it's audiences or writers or or the performers didn't want to continue.

And there's so many of these characters that, you know, lasted for a season and didn't continue.

And it's kind of like, well, what is the difference?

And, and we we can't say for certain.

Like you said, there's so many factors and, and I'd say only Fran knows for sure, but I don't even think Fran knows for sure because I think it involves the writers and the marketers like you said about like with.

Research as well and I mean I think that there are focus groups and kids you know, I don't know how the show is tested I.

Don't know how.

The show was tested.

I don't know how the show's I know that the show's testing has changed.

I don't know how I all.

But one thing I do know is that in my mind, you have to take testing with a tub of salt because and you had mentioned this in the e-mail.

You had said we know why are there so few female characters when half the population is female.

And I'll tell you exactly why the line that we were always told what would what I heard a lot of in the 90s was that girls will watch shows with characters that feature boys and girls, but boys will only watch characters shows that that that feature boy characters.

So we need to write boy characters because we know both boys and girls will watch them.

But my feeling is that, well, wait, is that something that you know for sure?

Or is that something that a kid told you in a focus group in front of other kids because he was ashamed to say he liked girl characters in front of other boys?

So these are, you know, this is this is something that and and this is not something that is unique to Sesame Street.

It's not something that's unique to the Muppet world.

I mean, if you look at you look at what happened with Star Wars and the sequels and Kelly Marie Tran and John Boyega, like the loud voices that squashed and silenced those characters, it was not the way the majority of the world felt.

I don't think it was the way the majority of the fans felt.

And even I'm not 100% sure that the people who were railing against those characters actually didn't like them.

I think that it became something that was, this is what everyone is saying online.

And this is something that pop culture as a whole is saying is bad with a capital B.

So I'm going to jump on that bandwagon even because I can't admit to anybody that I actually liked Rose.

Yeah, that's that's just my opinion.

Don't come at me, that's just my opinion.

But I think that sometimes these things about quote UN quote what audiences want or what kids want is maybe only truthful maybe a fraction of the time, depending on what time of day and what that kid had for breakfast.

And who else is listening to that kids answers.

Is that kid being 100% honest when he's saying I don't like to watch shows with girls, you know, is that little boy being honest?

Is it, you know, and I think that I, I now I do believe that, yeah.

Girls probably, you know, have some flexibility there because girls don't feel threatened if a boy is in charge on a show or the star of a show, maybe because of culture with a capital C You've got boys who feel threatened if a girl is a star of something, which is fascinating because Bluey and I think one of the reasons why Bluey is successful is because they are not obviously gendered.

Yeah.

That is it.

It's the kind of thing where again, like me, you know, again, I, I, I keep up, I keep up with the puppet stuff for kids, but I don't keep up with everything for kids.

Again, I'm in my 30s, but, and there's too much and I'm in my 30s.

But like, I did not know that Bluey was a girl until fairly recently because again, it just wasn't what my brain, you know, again, like what I assumed and.

Well, the beauty of it is, it doesn't matter.

Right.

And, and it's so interesting because like, so as, as a, as a transgender woman, like, I, I think a lot about like, what are the assumptions that go into so many of these decisions versus like what are sort of like truths?

And the fact of the matter is, you know, the more research you do and, and reading you do into this stuff, and the more, more people that you meet you, you, you restart to realize like so much of these things are, you know, constructions of society and the world around us rather than like inalienable innate facts that like, there's no way that like scientifically male children don't want to see this on TV.

Like it isn't, it's, it's a cultural thing, you know, like.

The the toys, right and the boy aisles and the girl aisles and Toys-R-Us.

And you know, there's always going to be exceptions to that.

And, and to say something that it is empirically true or to paint with a broad brush about any group in society is, is never a wise thing to do.

But I think that and, and again, when I say these things, I'm talking about preschool in general.

I'm not talking specifically about Sesame Street saying this.

I mean, I've worked on a lot of preschool shows and so has my husband.

You know, Craig worked on a lot of animated shows and he would hear this in development, trying to develop shows that never went anywhere and what have you.

This was just the party line.

And there's a lot of, so it's still showbiz, right?

I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's all still show business.

It's expensive, it's time consuming and a lot doesn't succeed.

So there is a fair amount of fear that drives decisions and a fair amount of being careful.

And there's a responsibility when it's educational, there's an extra level of responsibility.

And for whatever reason, anything that's educational is automatically cheap.

You know, we don't have the money to invest in preschool educational television that we once did or that other countries do.

So you have, it's still expensive.

You have less money to work with.

You have more eyes being very, very scrutinizing, you know, whatever it is, especially now with social media and bloggers, and you take one misstep.

All it takes is for one person to say something and it blows up online.

And so everybody is treading very, very carefully.

And I get that.

I understand why.

But what happens is then you start believing these things to be true, that boys don't like to watch girl characters.

And yeah, life's not that simplistic.

And again, I think it's so interesting to mention it from the from the scheme of educational TV shows, because it feels like part of the role you would think of an educational show.

And again, I'm, I'm speaking in general, I'm not just speaking to Sesame Street here, but part of the goal should be to teach kids about the world and, and, and how it works and what kind of people they might encounter in the world.

Yes.

However, if the kids not going to watch the show, they're not going to learn anything.

So they have.

It's got to be attractive to them in some way.

You've got this balance, yeah.

Got to find what is going to be the appealing thing.

What is the secret sauce?

How are you going to hide the vegetables and the brownie?

And that is not as easy.

And that's the other thing about, you know, preschool television, educational television, everything thinks it's so easy.

It's so easy.

It's just for kids, who cares?

It's easy.

No, no, no.

And this is the conundrum.

And and we find ourselves being responsible for formulating the minds of entire generations of children.

That's a lot on your back.

So of course everybody's scared and of course everybody's concerned and of course everybody's very, very, you know, thoughtful about these things.

But sometimes you just want to have fun with characters.

We just want to have a good time.

We want to entertain as much as we want to educate because if they're not watching, they're not going to learn.

So it's it's tough, it's tricky.

And yes, you're absolutely right.

You should want to show kids all of the possibilities that are out there and fuck the stereotypes and say, OK, see what it can be.

See how good this can be, See how fun this can be.

Hey, having this little girl in charge is not going to cause the sun not to rise in the morning.

It's, you know, it's not the end of the world.

Seeing, you know, seeing trans characters on screen, seeing female characters in Star Wars movies, that is not going to to end things, right?

You'd think that that would and that I, I, I I love that notion.

That'd be great.

You just have the bad apples ruining it for everybody else.

And so, yeah, you.

And The thing is, there's no formula for success.

There's no way to be able to say, well, if we do XY and Z, then that automatically means we'll be fine.

So it's the taking chances and it and sesame in its infancy that first season again, you know, it's, it's an experiment.

It, it, it bucked all the trends it did.

It did everything that shows we're not doing at that time, which is why it's the legendary institution that it is.

But it is not immune to criticism and it is not immune to, to the realities of, of, of the world.

And it is, you know, it's not a, it's not a utopia in the sense that we can do whatever we want and there won't be criticism.

Yeah.

So to have Prairie Dawn in a, in a parallel, let's just say in a parallel world for Prairie Dawn to be upfront for all 56 seasons, as important as Elmo and Cookie and Grover and Big Bird.

You know, I don't know what that world looks like because that's just not our reality.

And things I, I don't know now I now I feel like I'm just talking circular, circular Lily.

But it's, it's, it's, it's, it's frustrating because, and again, I've said this since the dawn of time, people who've heard me on podcasts have heard me say this a lot.

But not everything good is successful and not everything successful is good.

You can have a great character and do everything right and maybe not have it be as successful as you would like it to be.

And that happens, You know, great sitcoms get cancelled.

Great shows get cancelled, great movies flop or don't win awards.

It happens.

Great actors work in real estate.

Yeah.

I know way too many of them.

We do what we can.

You know, there, there, there isn't, there isn't a final answer here.

You know, you were like, you were like, well, what's, what's the take away from this conversation?

And, and I don't know that there is and I don't know that there's going to be a, a final take away from, you know, this entire bizarre podcast endeavor that I currently find myself on.

I'm not sure there is a final answer besides just it's interesting to ask these questions and to be prompted to ask these questions.

You know by by some silly puppet clips.

And oh, and I just want to say like going back to Abby, because I never really, and that this is not to say like I think Leslie is doing an amazing job with Abby and she's the perfect person to play that character.

And you know, she's what, what, what has been asked of her has been nothing short of Herculean as far as the amount of of, you know, the, the, the responsibility that she has with that character and the things that she does with that character and the way that character has grown far beyond, I think what the character may have been intended to be.

So that's not to say that like, so it took all these years for there to be this character that was thought.

And is that because of Leslie?

Well, yeah, Leslie did great.

But does that mean that Rosita is not a great character?

No, it doesn't.

It Does that mean that was not a great?

No, of course not.

But but we live in a time when, unfortunately, because there are so few of these female characters, we find that we have to either rank them or say that, well, one succeeded because the other one failed.

And it's not a situation where.

Oh no, of course not, No.

No, but I think I want to make that clear.

And what I'm saying too is that we, we get it, we fall in this trap when we talk about female characters in any situation, but especially in the Muppet world, because there are so few of them.

There's so few well known ones.

Now there's a lot of female presence on the show.

You want to talk about 1 offs and anything characters you want to talk about moms.

I mean, I played Cookie's mom and Elmo's mom and Grover's mom and you know, I've that's great.

That's great fun.

A lot.

Did hundreds of 1 offs.

There's Oh, no, absolutely no.

Presence on the show, but they're just not characters that anybody knows.

Do you know what I mean?

So it's so it's so it's an interesting thing to to look at as far as are you talking about female presence or are you talking about female merchandising repres like that picture, that photograph that represents Sesame Street and who is on that and how many of those characters are female?

And it, I think it's an interesting conversation to have.

What is that differentiation?

I always say there are a lot more female performers on Sesame Street than there are characters that represent that number.

And we keep trying, you know, and, and the performers do as good a job as we possibly can do with them.

But there are forces bigger than us sometimes that make it so.

Yeah, they got to keep paring back the number.

And then they'll add more and then they'll take away, and then they'll add more and then they'll take away.

It's happened with human cast members, too.

I mean, we're not.

We didn't even scratch the surface of human cast members, which is, I think, just as, if not more important to Sesame Street.

I think the human cast, they were to me.

I knew when I was a kid, even when I was really little, you know that.

Yeah, that that that that Grover and Cookie Monster were, were Muppets.

But I knew.

That's Bob.

That's the one and only Bob.

And.

When I met Bob, when I met Emilio, when I met Louise, when I met Roscoe, you know Gordon and they called me by my name.

They are one-of-a-kind.

There's only one Loretta Long, there's only one Sonia Manzano.

There was only one Bob McGrath.

You got a couple of prairies.

You got, you know, you got how many people have played Elmo at this point?

How many people have played Ernie at this point?

There's only one Bob, there's only one Loretta, there's there's only one Allison Bartlett.

So you know that that would be an interesting and I know that yes, Tough Pigs is Muppet centric, but that is also a fascinating conversation.

Absolutely, absolutely.

You know, again, it's, it's, it's just you, you know, you, you got to start somewhere.

And also, I don't know, like I keep saying, I don't, I don't know what the answer is or even even all the time.

I don't know what the question is.

I just know that having these conversations is the is the best way to figure things out.

Oh absolutely.

Shining a light on the stuff is is never a bad idea.

Stephanie, thank you so much for talking to me.

And I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm both sorry and not sorry that this this took so long, but.

I don't.

Thank you for letting me Babble.

That's what I wanted.

That is 100% what I wanted when I set this up.

Stephanie, do you have anything that you'd like to plug before before I wrap up?

Well, season 3 of Don Quixote should be airing very soon and I'm particularly proud of a lot of the stuff we did this season.

I wrote 3 scripts in season 3, but of course you can still see seasons one and two on PBS Kids.

And I wrote, I've written, I've gotten to write a bunch of episodes of Donkey.

I'm very grateful and I, I love playing every character I get to play on that show.

Yeah, if anybody wants to, Helpsters I think is still streaming on Apple TV Plus.

And of course, Sesame Street's still going.

And boy, I'm not really doing anything right now to to to plug per SE, but I am very proud of the stuff that's going to be coming up this season On on, on donkey.

I mean, I don't know specifically what's coming up, but you should be proud of all three of those, all three of those shows I.

I'm just lucky to keep working that that's really that's that's the basic.

I'm just lucky to keep working.

Thank you so much.

Thank you, Becca.

Man, I love talking to Stephanie, but now I have even more to think about.

But like I said, maybe that's the wonderful thing about asking questions.

Sometimes the answer is less important than the journey.

Next week.

Our journey takes us back to the world of minor characters, though, as we talk about some characters who were never really designed to be part of the main gang.

See the see the little house down there?

That's the house where the tootle bugs live.

Isn't that cute?

It's it's made out of a little milk carton and it's got pencils there for the roof and it's got a little drinking straw there.

That's the chimney Next week on a Prairie Dawn Companion, A tale of two Tinas.

I can't wait to ask even more questions then I really.

Am quite.

Regarded a Prairie Dawn Companion is a production of toughpigs.com.

It is written, produced, edited and hosted by Becca Petunia, an executive produced by the Tough Pigs Muppet Fan Podcast executive producer Johannes.

Thanks to Scott Hanson, Shane Keating, Tony Whitaker and the Whole Muppet Wiki team for helping me with research.

The book St.

Gang by Michael Davis was also indispensable.

Thanks to Katie Lynn Miller, Michael Richardson and Eli Lee for help with script revisions.

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