[SPEAKER_00]: It's just between us, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just between us, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Hello, I'm Allison Raskin.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm a writer, relationship coach, and last night my husband was at the longest world series game other than this one other one that was tied for that length as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, I'm Gabe Dunn.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a writer by Convise sexual icon, wink, and he went to the game with my dad.

[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was very funny, because they left around three.

[SPEAKER_02]: And my dad was like, okay, well, the game should be over around eight.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'll see you after.

[SPEAKER_02]: Meanwhile, this game went to midnight.

[SPEAKER_02]: They stayed, or like, almost midnight.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was six and a half hours.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I did not get to see my dad last night, [SPEAKER_01]: But at what, at what point are the players like I'm too tired?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I would think after an hour, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's that's so much extra time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think they make over time money or no?

[SPEAKER_02]: No, but I think they're making enough money to begin with that it's fine.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right, they're salary, they're salary, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: In the million, so I think they're okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're right, you're right, you're right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Wow, this is what I feel worse honestly for like all the people sitting in the stadium.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like I can't imagine having to sit [SPEAKER_01]: Well, they love it, though, that's their favorite thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: They stayed even though it was like they could have left.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, at a certain point, you're at a historical event.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right, you're right.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you can't leave because this is like, you know, for the rest of their lives, they're going to be like, I was at that world series game.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's wild.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's, uh, and are they, they're not even Dodgers fans?

[SPEAKER_01]: No.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they just love the game.

[SPEAKER_02]: They love the love of the game.

[SPEAKER_02]: My tag out tickets because he was like, I've never been to a world series game.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I have to go.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then he realized that he went last year.

[SPEAKER_02]: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha [SPEAKER_02]: Wow, that's age, baby.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I said to him, you know, because my mom died in September of last year.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I said, we were all going through it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think hard to remember.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like that was all just a blur that had hold a few months there.

[SPEAKER_01]: So like did I go or did I dream it?

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: I went to a world series game when I was little.

[SPEAKER_01]: My dad took me to the marlins and we were sitting in the nosebleeds.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think he was just like, we're going and I was very attached to him.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I was like, hell yeah, but it did not go to midnight.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it was exciting.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's cool.

[SPEAKER_02]: It depends obviously if it's your team, I think it makes it more exciting.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: But our lens used to be good.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if they are now.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't mean to be an asshole.

[SPEAKER_01]: But [SPEAKER_01]: They were like great at one point.

[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_01]: The rise in the fall of an empire.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, this is just between us, a variety show filled with heartfelt advice.

[SPEAKER_01]: Ridiculous games.

[SPEAKER_01]: And brutal honesty.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this week on the show, we're going to be talking to Margo Feldman, all about trauma, therapy, and their trauma, Instagram, software, trauma, and it's mostly Alice in in Margo vibing out.

[SPEAKER_01]: I do love to talk about these things.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, sort of vibing out.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's so good questions.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know all the modality stuff that you guys know, but that's fine.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't need to know everything.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to actually be discussing winding down the podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: So don't, don't, don't, don't.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know how to weave it like introduce this topic, but we will, you know, you're going to be on the edge of your seat.

[SPEAKER_02]: So a bit of a bummer of a topic, but also.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it poured it, what we have been doing this podcast since 2019, which means we've been doing it for six years, six years, six years.

[SPEAKER_02]: My head, I kept saying seven, but I guess that's the wrong.

[SPEAKER_02]: We did five years last year, so yeah, six years.

[SPEAKER_02]: We've been doing it for six years, which is incredible.

[SPEAKER_02]: Also, wow, a lot of hypothetical, so I had to go, I know put him in a book, put him in a [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, I've been thinking about just like the next phase of my life.

[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, I'm having a not obviously because maybe you haven't been checked in for the last seven months, but I'm having a baby in December and I'm trying to think about like what kind of life and lifestyle is doable for me, especially now that I'm also coaching and that takes up a lot of my time and [SPEAKER_02]: you know and also honestly just like allowing myself to admit that i'm kind of burnt out on this project i don't feel like there's ground that we haven't covered um i feel like when i'm picking international questions i'm like we answered this we answered this like i don't know like to be fair we did have an advice show on a couch before this so it's actually sort of 12 years of international questions yes [SPEAKER_02]: I also think part of it for me was also just feeling like I'm not giving my best because it's just been going on for so long like I don't know what else to offer to this show in some ways.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know I talked to John about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I basically came to the decision that it doesn't make sense for me to keep going beyond December and then I had to share that with you guys which you guys took really well and honestly I saw it coming.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that I did, but I guess I should have been like, wait, the baby might take up some time.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: How did you see it coming, Melissa?

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just felt it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just felt it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if, like, I was not shocked at all when you said, wow, Melissa's an empath.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, okay, okay, okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've been debating it for a while and I think something about the baby slash the end of the year just like made it feel I don't know like it made it more clear like it was like, oh this feels like a natural time to stop versus like I don't know four months ago and I was like, I don't know what to do.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, yeah, it's like heartbreaking, but also feels like me kind of honoring my own feelings without beating myself up for stopping something like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's like fear, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm going to be losing money.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to be like losing like connection with an audience.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like there's all this stuff that like as like a freelance creator feels like really high stakes to do, [SPEAKER_02]: Also, it's okay to like sometimes pull back.

[SPEAKER_01]: Also, it's not like me and Melissa will never talk to you again.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like if you want to come back at some point or do or do whatever, like it's not like the audience is going to be like, who the fuck is this fucker?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's talk about what's going to happen instead.

[SPEAKER_01]: My other show is like very serious.

[SPEAKER_01]: A thousand natural shocks about with money podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's more of a serious topic show.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm going to keep doing [SPEAKER_01]: on the Patreon for just between us, a show that we are changing the name of, but it will just be me and special guests.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it will be mostly advice-based, the first episodes.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then the second episodes of the month will be TLDRI with like me, perhaps Melissa sometimes, and then a guest.

[SPEAKER_01]: and unless Melissa doesn't want to do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you know what, she'll decide that week if she wants to do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm going to have a rotating guess.

[SPEAKER_01]: It'll be more of a comedy show, wholesale, light and comedic.

[SPEAKER_01]: And just kind of a little, a little butter scotch candy treat for your for your ears.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sorry, Allison, but we have chosen to call it best gay beaver.

[SPEAKER_02]: I really disagree with that.

[SPEAKER_02]: I really think you should have called it Gabe Unleashed.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just, I think that it needs to be something, I mean, I don't know, vote you guys, I guess.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I just think it, well, I wanted to be something really positive.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, Gabe Unleashed means, you know, they'll be like, unleashed from what if they're new.

[SPEAKER_01]: But like, but whatever, I wanted to be like, clear that it's very positive and also it kind of like rolls off the tongue better.

[SPEAKER_01]: Melissa like yeah, I like this game.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: What is it in reference to?

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't understand best day ever.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.

[UNKNOWN]: All right.

[UNKNOWN]: Great.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it will have rotating guests largely comedy friends and we are going to put I think most of it behind the paywall.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I mean you guys are listening behind the paywall.

[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, we are going to keep this Patreon.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we are gonna be putting most of the episodes here and not, we'll put like teasers on the feed.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it'll mostly be a little Patreon project here.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I would love it if you guys would stay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Please stay.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know that Allison is the balance here and that it might go off the rails with me, just me.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I promise I'll have guests that, look, either they'll be balanced or we'll be riding off the cliff together like Thelman Louise.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I just, I'm excited to do something later that will hopefully offset how heavy I feel all the time.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, it's, it's new.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a very new cliff, as I said, that we would be driving off of.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it feels new.

[SPEAKER_01]: It feels very scary.

[SPEAKER_01]: It feels very, you know, we'll see who likes to better, I guess.

[SPEAKER_00]: Whoa, whoa, whoa.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, I'm scared.

[SPEAKER_01]: you know, it's a, it's a lot to ask people to, um, switch gears.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, well, I don't know, you know, in a few years, we can always do our comeback tour, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: You come out of retirement.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, retirement.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'll be like Michael Jordan, every like six months, I'm out of retirement.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm out of that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I retire again.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm back.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, just take a look at the other toes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think you could be a guest at some point, I guess I'll have to go through your management, but yeah, you know, we'll see, but I do, I do like the way that cool zone media and you're wrong about kind of have these this cadre of people that they have that are familiar to the audience.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I do want to keep guests for multiple episodes.

[SPEAKER_01]: I do want to bring people back based on who the audience likes.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think it's less of a heavy lift of finding different experts and more bringing personalities on that, that I enjoy.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sort of like match game, if you guys have ever, not the new match game that they tried to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: Match game 78, which you guys should watch it.

[SPEAKER_01]: They used to just drink and smoke on TV.

[SPEAKER_01]: at all at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if you have suggestions of friends of mine or people that you see me interact with or like that you would love to have on as a guest because you're like gosh, I would really love to know more about that person.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let me know.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's here to be great.

[SPEAKER_01]: It'll be fun at least.

[SPEAKER_01]: It'll be it'll be in 45 minutes to an hour of lightness in the week.

[SPEAKER_02]: But just make sure that at least one of you comments under every single episode, I miss Allison.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if you wouldn't mind.

[SPEAKER_01]: Listen, engagement is engagement, baby.

[SPEAKER_02]: But you will still be getting a podcast for me every week for starter marriage until they get to that show.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and I want to say that because it's going behind a payroll because we won't have Allison every full episode.

[SPEAKER_01]: All full episodes will be video.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there will be video for every single episode full full video, not just little clips.

[SPEAKER_02]: awesome.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if, you know, you want more of me, I'm still available on emotional support lady on YouTube at starter marriage.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then with another book, come next September.

[SPEAKER_01]: Woo.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks.

[SPEAKER_02]: What do we rate this episode?

[SPEAKER_01]: You can come on and promote it, maybe.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, thank you again.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for being somewhat open to be.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'll see you guys on the show.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we'll see.

[SPEAKER_02]: I appreciate that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back to The Sweet Us!

[SPEAKER_02]: It's time for the juiciest, most scandalous, most controversial segment, no-to-all-a-pod casting.

[SPEAKER_02]: Tough questions!

[SPEAKER_01]: This week on the show, we have Margo Feldman, a writer, public educator, and artists, they created the online community soft core trauma where they share memes and writing that testified to their experiences living with trauma and chronic illness, and now right at their [SPEAKER_01]: South Korea trauma is such a funny name.

[SPEAKER_01]: Where did you come up with that?

[SPEAKER_00]: I wish I could take full credit for it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I basically, at one point in time, was like, you know, I just want to have a funny name for my account that isn't just like my name.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I had a list of words that I felt like kind of encapsulated the vibes and sent them out to some friends.

[SPEAKER_00]: And one of my friends named Lex, [SPEAKER_00]: came up with softcore trauma at a their brilliant brain.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was just like, oh my god, I feel so seen by this.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so yeah, thank you, Lex for softcore trauma.

[SPEAKER_02]: So trauma is one of those buzzwords that there's a lot of like contention around like what actually qualifies as trauma, big tea trauma, little tea trauma.

[SPEAKER_02]: How do you conceptualize the concept of trauma?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that, you know, we kind of have the more standard, you know, DSM definition of trauma, which tends to focus on, you know, a singular event that happens to you.

[SPEAKER_00]: And, but there's like a lack of understanding around.

[SPEAKER_00]: more on going events that can happen in our lives.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so for me, when I think about trauma, it's really about anything that threatens our senses of safety, belonging, and dignity.

[SPEAKER_00]: and not understanding really comes from St.

C.

K.

Haines' work and her book, The Politics of Trauma, really what we have is a traumatic event happens and then whether that traumatic event becomes trauma, the body's manifestation of that really depends on how we are supported in the aftermath of the traumatic event.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so if we have access to [SPEAKER_00]: safety if we have access to community or, you know, and that can literally be one other person but someone who's going to like support us and if we can have our dignity affirmed then the traumatic event doesn't actually have to become trauma.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I particularly don't really like vibe with like the big tea trauma and little tea trauma because I feel like it sets up this hierarchy where people end up really minimizing their own experiences of trauma because it doesn't fit into the big tea category.

[SPEAKER_00]: When really, you know, something that could be a big tea trauma to someone else might be experience as a little tea trauma to another person.

[SPEAKER_00]: because it's really about the context and the care and support that we have.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that would be my very short cliff snow.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like kind of definition that I work with.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, I agree with that framework.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I think for me, I think about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's less about what the actual event was, but more about what effect it leaves on your body.

[SPEAKER_02]: right like we're all so different that people can have the exact same experience and it remains trauma for one person and not for another person and so it's really like being in touch with what impact did this have for me long term and if it impacted you long term then that's you're living with the trauma of that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well exactly and I think about like an example that I offer to people that kind of help contextualize this as you know like I lost my mom when I was 11 and you know losing a parent losing a loved one is a traumatic event and in the aftermath of her death there was no grieving no really even acknowledgement of what happened we all just like picked up and carried on our lives as though everything was normal [SPEAKER_00]: traumatic event then became trauma.

[SPEAKER_00]: Whereas, you know, in my dad passed 20 years later in 31, you know, I have this community of support around me to like hold my grief, witness my grief, you know, support me, drop off meals, you know, really provide care.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so that traumatic event [SPEAKER_02]: And recognizing that that's not like a moral failing if something becomes trauma for you, that didn't become trauma for someone else, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like that there's these greater reasons why something stick with us, including your past history and what's happened to you up until that point, some genetics and all, like that there's just so much at play.

[SPEAKER_01]: How do you know if somebody is actually not affected by something or if they're just like in denial or minimizing because it's like, oh, you were traumatized by this, but I wasn't by the same event, but how do you know that person isn't just not dealing with or not facing how it affected them, you know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, trauma will still show itself even when, you know, like, we're repressing something.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, I think saying that, oh, you're okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: is actually maybe a sign that you've been more impacted than you're like actually acknowledging, because, you know, in a response to a traumatic event that is going to kind of circumvented from becoming trauma, there would be space for you to be feeling you're feeling.

[SPEAKER_00]: like you'd be like, I'm angry.

[SPEAKER_00]: I am feeling grief.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm in shock.

[SPEAKER_00]: Click there would be space for those feelings.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, and I think like we have been taught culturally to minimize big feelings or so-called negative feelings.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, I don't know, when someone might say to me like, you know, like, this horrible thing happened and then, you know, they make a joke about it or whatever as we do to like survive, you know, I might just like say to them like, hey, you know, they're space here for us to talk about like actually how it like that sounds like it was actually really hard and you know, I would just offer validation and like see if that might open up.

[SPEAKER_00]: The space because we need to know that someone's actually going to receive what we're sharing and in a world where we've been like taught especially as white folks to like minimize all of our feelings to push them down to like repress them.

[SPEAKER_00]: Part of our work in supporting others is to really create that safe space so that they can talk about it and feel it and let it move through them.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, I think people don't necessarily even recognize when they're traumatized, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, my mom's childhood was like objectively traumatic, but it took until like the last few years of her life to like fully understand it comes to terms with that.

[SPEAKER_02]: But then you saw the manifestation of it in her anxiety.

[SPEAKER_02]: right?

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, she carried so much anxiety with her every single day and it was like, is that an anxiety disorder?

[SPEAKER_02]: Is that trauma like unresolved trauma?

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's where things get really tricky.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a lot of times things that kind of present as quote unquote, like, mental disorders are actually just unresolved trauma.

[SPEAKER_01]: or the idea that it doesn't I was going to say for what you were saying Margot the idea that it doesn't come up until later saying like you know you might feel that way now but if you feel differently later you're allowed to you're allowed to notice it later on.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely, because, you know, I, one of the first ways that our body responds after a traumatic event is shock, and so we quite literally might not even be capable of feeling anything because part of what our brilliant brain does to protect us, because you know, another definition of trauma is, you know, something that's like too much too fast, too [SPEAKER_00]: And that's when like dissociation can kick in, you know, that's when, you know, numbing out could kick in that's when, you know, all of these other like really smart survival strategies that we actually need can kick in so that we can get through the day.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it took me years and years and years and years of my life to realize that [SPEAKER_00]: that so many of the things that I experienced, again, because they're not like the capital T trauma, you know, or the things that are listed in like the DSM as traumatic events, were actually traumatic events.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I couldn't, you know, address the like emotional neglect that I experienced growing up, you know, because that wasn't on the list of things.

[SPEAKER_00]: And because also at that point in time, [SPEAKER_00]: to acknowledge it as a child, as an adolescent, who was living in an environment of chronic neglect, would have been too much for me to handle.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so that, you know, I really think that, you know, as I affectionately call it our trauma brain, understands, [SPEAKER_00]: When we're not ready or able to process something and, you know, bring it to us when there's actually more space, more capacity and or we reach this kind of breaking point where it's like there's no way to not deal with this now like it has to happen.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you think about people living in war zones, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And you're like, how do they function?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like how when their life is in danger, every single moment of every single day, how are they not just completely broken down?

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's because your brain says this incredible thing to protect you.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then maybe once you're into safety, then suddenly you're dealing with the fallout of all of that and those feelings and finally processing them and then ultimately sometimes living in the, [SPEAKER_02]: a greater state of fear afterwards than during the actual danger zone.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: And because, you know, if you are lucky enough to be able to get out of the danger zone, because you haven't processed it, your body is still trapped back there.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then it's extra confusing because you're looking around you and you're like, oh, but wait, you know, like, I'm not there, but you know, it feels like I am and so then that creates even more fear because your body is still living as though it isn't safe and it's really challenging, you know, I talk about this example of like, [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I can heal, do all of this healing work from like sexual trauma that I've experienced.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I can go to therapy.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can, you know, choose like safe, loving partnerships.

[SPEAKER_00]: And at the end of the day, I still live in a world where I am under threat.

[SPEAKER_00]: And there are so many different experiences of that depending on like your marginalized identities, where you step out into a world that isn't safe.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so there's only so much on R and that we can do as individuals if the conditions that created the trauma, you know, are and created the traumatic event are still like forces that we have to contend with.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, this feeling of like unsafety, like there's only so much of a sense of safety I can build in myself after the event, when the world itself continues to be unsafe.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's why you know modalities like CBT aren't that helpful for people with trauma, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Where it's like, you know, what is the evidence that that will happen?

[SPEAKER_02]: It was like, well, that did happen.

[SPEAKER_02]: This horrible thing did occur to me.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know how I'm supposed to convince myself that that it wouldn't happen again.

[SPEAKER_02]: What it did.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's why...

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like trauma treatment is so different.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not about accepting that like you're overreacting or you're just having black and white thinking or you're catastrophizing or generalizing.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, how do I exist in this world that we know is unsafe?

[SPEAKER_02]: How do you find some sense of balance despite the risk of being alive?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's what I wanted to ask when you talk about processing or resolving.

[SPEAKER_01]: What does that look like?

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, man, I mean, it can take so many different shapes and forms, um, I think if we're talking about the direct aftermath of like a traumatic event, um, definitely part of that is about being able to recognize that the event is over that you are safe as safe as possible.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now, in that moment, and so, you know, really looking for those like queues of safety around you, you know, for me, it's like my cut, or we know when I'm looking, doing work around a traumatic event that happened when I was younger, one of the tools that my therapist, my somatic therapist will use is still like, have me look at my tattoos.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because I didn't have those tattoos when I was 14, 15, 16, you know, et cetera, and so that is a marker, you know, of like the present moment that I'm here now that I'm in this adult body, where I'm capable of making different decisions, you know, it can look like, you know, again, you know, so much of the time.

[SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, we're addressing trauma that happened years and years and years ago, and so a lot of it is around giving ourselves what's called like the missing experience.

[SPEAKER_00]: So whatever, it was we didn't get at that point in time, whether it was, you know, that person who validated our experience.

[SPEAKER_00]: who said, like, I'm so sorry, this happened to you, like that sounds awful, I want to just like be here and love you and care for you through this and, you know, having people in your life who can do that, but also there's so much that actually we can do for ourselves and I think yes healing trauma is absolutely something that happens relationally and we also have a relationship with ourselves like that is also a relationship.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so for me in moments where I'm doing some processing, it might really just look like me offering that validation to myself.

[SPEAKER_00]: That was so unfair that that happened to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so angry, letting myself feel the anger that I didn't get to feel at that time or if I did feel it and try to express it at the time that was invalidated and showing that younger part of me that again, there's this like adult me that's here now that is going to show up and take care of them in the ways that they didn't get to experience.

[SPEAKER_00]: So those are just the, you know, couple of examples, but there's so, so many tools that I think often pinpointing like what was missing for me at that time, what do I wish?

[SPEAKER_00]: I had experienced, can really help us move forward in the processing.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to take a quick break, but stick around.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we're about [SPEAKER_02]: I love the example of looking at your tattoos because sometimes I'll encourage a client to write a list of what makes them safe, even just the idea of like, I make enough money that if I needed to move, I could move, right, like I have these friends now that I didn't have before I have.

[SPEAKER_02]: these pet like what is different than perhaps when you felt so vulnerable and unsafe in the past and just to have like that visual thing that you can come to and like look at your safety list.

[SPEAKER_02]: Can I think, you know, help people recognize that even though their body is returning to an earlier state, their reality is very different now.

[SPEAKER_01]: What about if it's a recent one?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, if it's a recent event, you know, I think a huge part of that is letting other people in your life know what's going on for you and letting them show up for you.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it can be so hard to receive care.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, I think about some examples from like after my father died, you know, I was like very, very poor at the time and I had a friend who was like, I would really love to like do some crowd funding so that you can like pay for the expenses you have to pay for.

[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, it was accepting that care.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was, you know, friends who made a Google spreadsheet of like a meal delivery.

[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, dropped off food for me four or six weeks, you know, because I think a lot of times too people are like, okay, we're going to show up for like the first week or like the week, you know, two weeks after, you know, whatever the event is and then at that point, you know, but it's like, no, we actually need like more sustained action, it looks like really giving ourselves space to feel the feelings.

[SPEAKER_00]: which is, and not intellectualize them, which I love to do, I can think about all the feelings so hard, but not actually feel them.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, that, and like often we can think to ourselves, like, oh, if I just let myself feel this, it's going to overwhelm me.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, like, honestly, like, setting a timer and being like, I'm just going to like let myself cry for 30 minutes.

[SPEAKER_00]: or if that feels too overwhelming, 10 minutes.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you think, again, that it's like you're not going to be able to stop, but actually when the timer goes off, you will find that you're like, oh, okay, you know, like you actually do feel done.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, really intentionally feeling, [SPEAKER_00]: Feeling the feelings also like movement because again like, you know, that shock, like that is in the body and so, you know, whether that's like some gentle movement, you know, of just like stretching your body going for a walk like once a day, trying to do something to just like let the feelings move through you.

[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, it doesn't, again, have to be like a long thing that you're doing, you know, you can spend all day just like on the couch binge watching gossip girl, you know, and then like, get up and just like go for a five minute walk.

[SPEAKER_00]: So those are definitely some, some of the tools that, you know, can can allow you to sort of just stay present.

[SPEAKER_00]: And, [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, I've been so lucky that I've had this like incredible community around me and like I know that that is, you know, it's something I'm like very lucky for but also something that I built since I'm trying to like acknowledge both of those things and I know a lot of folks don't have that and so, you know, if there is like a support group that exists that you can go to where you can like be in space with other people who have [SPEAKER_00]: some, you know, even if it's not the identical experience to you, something and even if you don't share your story, just like listening to other people's stories so that you know that you're like not alone in your experience can be like another way to have that experience of like connection and belonging, even if you don't have that in your like closest, you know, relationships.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm curious here, opinion about asking people to share their trauma, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because there is this element where, you know, so much of this conversation has been about the importance of being able to talk about it, being able to acknowledge it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I also know that sometimes there's a kind of unnecessary harm when it's like, oh my god, tell me what happened.

[SPEAKER_02]: And someone having to relive that trauma and tell the story.

[SPEAKER_02]: even, you know, in therapy, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, one of the signs of perhaps maybe not a super trauma-informed clinician would be someone who, like, on day one is like, take me through the worst thing that ever happened to you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: What is your, you know, your thoughts on all of that and, like, the difference between when it's helpful to share and when it might actually be harmful.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, absolutely like one of the kind of stages of trauma healing is around like sharing your story with like an empathetic listener and, you know, having them be able to like validate your response and be witnessed in that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean this is a challenge I've even experienced as someone who is a writer and I tell my stories all the time and I have to figure out like when is that actually helping me and when is that actually like I'm not ready to tell that story yet and I think you know [SPEAKER_00]: a great kind of example from like my own life was like right before I started seeing the therapist I've had for the last eight years who's a somatic practitioner.

[SPEAKER_00]: She was in training at the time and so I had to have an intake with her supervisor.

[SPEAKER_00]: And her supervisor did the classic [SPEAKER_00]: like let's give me the history of your whole life which you know is just filled with trauma after trauma after trauma and you know as I'm sitting there recounting this story I'm also seeing how challenging it is for her to just like you know it's not just one thing it's like another another another another another and of course by the end of the session I feel awful.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I called one of my best friends who is somatic coach and I was, you know, because at the end of this session, the supervisors said to me that I would have to do this a second time with my therapist because she is in training and she'll need to do this with me.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was just like, I can't do this again, and so my best friend was like, no, absolutely you don't need to do this, like you can advocate for yourself.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I actually had a phone call with my therapist prior to our first session.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she was just like, Margot, no, we're not going to do that because like that's actually not trauma informed.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we're just going to start [SPEAKER_00]: like what you know and essentially what the focus was on is like what are the symptoms that are showing up and how do we support those symptoms and you know she was like you know well I'll learn about you and your experience as we do this work together.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't need to have your whole story right off the job.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so when translating this into, yeah, situation where it's like, you know, do I share my story?

[SPEAKER_00]: Do I not?

[SPEAKER_00]: Or were encouraging someone to share their story with us?

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, really looking at, you know, what's happening in the body?

[SPEAKER_00]: you know, and like if I'm in, you know, a state where I feel more grounded, more regulated, you know, more present, you know, then maybe that's the state in which I can like share more of my story with someone else.

[SPEAKER_00]: But if I notice that I am feeling a lot of anxiety, [SPEAKER_00]: Or I'm feeling really dissociative or, you know, and you might not even be able to fully pinpoint those things, but it might be like, oh, I'm like, my heart's racing.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like breathing really quickly or I'm feeling like really depressed and like really down and really like immobile.

[SPEAKER_00]: like those aren't the moments to be doing that like story like processing those are moments where it's like okay what is my body need right now and so yeah for me when I sit down to write even you know because often all right you know I write for my sub stack every week and a lot of it is like stuff I'm processing like in the moment and sometimes I'll like get out of therapy and I've had this like [SPEAKER_00]: Massive revelation about something and I'm like, oh my god, okay, I have to like write about this and then I have to like actually just be like, how am I doing in my body right now like do I need to actually sit down and write this in this moment or like actually do I like need to like go for a walk.

[SPEAKER_00]: or like feed myself.

[SPEAKER_00]: And like, you know, tracking when that for me, that feeling of urgency is there.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because that's often actually the sign that it's like, this isn't the moment for me to like do this writing or share this story with someone else.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I, I want to do that from a place of non-urgency.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, that's it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Totality too!

[SPEAKER_01]: Totality too!