[SPEAKER_01]: This is the best Toyota to drive around the world.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't mean in a metaphorical sense.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if you want to get to the most inhospitable places on the planet, this is the Toyota you should take.

[SPEAKER_01]: Which one is it?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we're answering that question today because I am out here in Montana at the Ex-Overland Ranch.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I had the chance to sit down and talk to the founder of Ex-Overland, an organization that leaned some of the greatest adventures of the modern era in brand new Toyota.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we're going to find out [SPEAKER_01]: From their perspective, what is the greatest modern Toyota?

[SPEAKER_01]: What are some of the pros and cons?

[SPEAKER_01]: What are some of the do's and don'ts for modifying these machines?

[SPEAKER_01]: But first before we do that, let's walk around four of the definitive offered Toyota's of the modern era and talk about what these vehicles are like side by side.

[SPEAKER_01]: Some of the pros and the cons from a TFL perspective about land cruiser versus foreigner versus Tacoma.

[SPEAKER_01]: versus Tundra and then we'll get clay on the camera here and we'll we'll hear some stories and some adventures and learn about his experience with these rigs.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now we got to start here on the right.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this is the two fifty series Land Cruiser.

[SPEAKER_01]: One of the most controversial Toyota's of the modern era because the Land Cruiser name died four years ago.

[SPEAKER_01]: I believe twenty twenty one was the last model year of the two hundred series.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then they brought it back as the two-fifty series.

[SPEAKER_01]: And why this is controversial is because the two-fifty series is not a full-blown land cruiser.

[SPEAKER_01]: And what I mean by that is for generations down, other parts of the world, there's been a somewhat lighter duty land cruiser called the Prado.

[SPEAKER_01]: And now we're getting the Prado here in the US, badgeed as strictly a land cruiser, but a lot of the old school land cruiser guys claim because it's not a hundred a two hundred or a three hundred series, it's not really a proper land cruiser, but I would argue this was the right call for Toyota to make in this era because the two hundred series as impressive as it was from reliability standpoint.

[SPEAKER_01]: simply didn't sell that well.

[SPEAKER_01]: Throughout its long production run, I believe it's two thousand, two thousand, eight, through twenty-twenty-one, the only average three thousand, the thirty-five hundred a year.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this vehicle was selling something like ten times that amount, and that's because you get the Land Cruiser look, the Land Cruiser feel, the Land Cruiser name, but for twenty-three thousand dollars less, in some cases, compared to the outgoing Land Cruiser.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now the argument that the two-fifty detractors would say is, [SPEAKER_01]: You don't get that length of reliability, but I would argue.

[SPEAKER_01]: These little letters here on the front.

[SPEAKER_01]: do come with a certain trust within the offer of community knowing that they're going to build a good product regardless.

[SPEAKER_01]: Will it last half a million miles like the two hundred series?

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the verdict is still out on that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But from, you know, it's been out for some time now.

[SPEAKER_01]: People that own these really seem to like them and really seem to be impressed with the longevity of these machines.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we'll have to see, you know, how history treats these in twenty thirty years if people look back at them and with fondness or if they look back at them is like a land cruiser, a diet land cruiser.

[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, let's talk about the vehicle that you can buy today instead of reminiscing about old vehicles.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a lot to like here.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this is based on the TNJF architecture.

[SPEAKER_01]: Same as a foreigner, same as the Tacoma, same as the Tundra.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the architecture, the platform, is largely shared between these four machines.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I love the form factor you find in this two fifty series.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's very boxy, very practical, and it's got an excellent seating for [SPEAKER_01]: This is something that is highly underrated in this newest Land Cruiser.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now coming from a bit of a Land Rover background myself.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love the enemy here.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love how Landovers have a command driving position where you sit on top of them instead of in them.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you get that perspective here in the two fifties where you get a great view of the world at this huge windshield and the outside windows.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's just got great visibility and it feels like you're in control of the world in front of you.

[SPEAKER_01]: That is awesome.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is also awesome what we find down here.

[SPEAKER_01]: The full-time four-wheel drive system.

[SPEAKER_01]: So unlike the foreigner that we're about to check out in the second, we have to manually select between two-hine four-high on that trail hunter trim.

[SPEAKER_01]: Every Land Cruiser is going to have a full time system with a standard center locking differential and a rear locking differential.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this version I'm sitting in now also has a stability bar disconnect for some added articulation off-road.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now this is a big deal for folks that want to, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: Live in a snowy climate, not have to worry about what position is my four wheel drive selector in.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just a full time system that's always going to be there and is always going to work for you, regardless of the terrain.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's an underrated thing that people don't often talk about.

[SPEAKER_01]: The other thing I like about this land cruiser is going to be a bit of a hot take, but I do like that it's a standard hybrid system.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is a two point four-lead turbo [SPEAKER_01]: gas engine with a hybrid system that's mounted in the back you do lose some cargo capacity which is a little bit of a shame you can't get a third row in this machine but [SPEAKER_01]: It does mean that you get quite a bit of instant low-end power.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think peak torque comes in at like, seventeen-hundred RPM.

[SPEAKER_01]: So these are really easy to off-road.

[SPEAKER_01]: They are immensely spacious because they are just a perfect box.

[SPEAKER_01]: We got this thing loaded up with paddle boards here.

[SPEAKER_01]: It could take many, many more.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then you get decent tonic capacity in this vehicle as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: Standard hit, standard brake controller, another highly underrated thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think these two [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot to like here.

[SPEAKER_01]: Pricing, they started about sixty, they can go well into the seventy thousand dollar region.

[SPEAKER_01]: But of what I've seen about two fifty and I've driven quite a few of them and I've [SPEAKER_01]: wheeled them, we actually really am pretty hard today.

[SPEAKER_01]: They are impressive machines.

[SPEAKER_01]: This one does have twenty inch wheels, which wouldn't be my first choice, but wrapped in a decent tire.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is a Ridge Grappler tire that actually performed really well off road.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's got free mounted rock rails.

[SPEAKER_01]: This thing is awesome.

[SPEAKER_01]: But let's go ahead and transition over to its younger, maybe more athletic cousin.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this is the four-on-er trail hunter.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now this is the top dog version of the new sixth generation foreigner.

[SPEAKER_01]: Also based on the T&JF architecture, also with that two-point four-liter turbo engine, also with the hybrid system, but shockingly, [SPEAKER_01]: We live in an era where likely, I don't have the full specs on these, because some of the peak production, there's some things going on here.

[SPEAKER_01]: But typically, a trail hunter for hunter can actually be more than a land cruiser.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is probably a seventy thousand dollar for that we see here, and that's probably a sixty-some sixty-five thousand dollar land cruiser.

[SPEAKER_01]: kind of a crazy world we live in now you can really see the stance of this foreigner so it's wider it's got more rubber on it than the Land Cruiser and it does have some advantages over the Land Cruiser now if you really care about maximum all-out capability this is likely going to be the most off-road worthy Toyota from a rock crawl standpoint you get really good clearance solid or axle this thing also has [SPEAKER_01]: locking rear diff, stabilize the bar disconnect, but they've also gone kind of nuts so with some of the skidplating.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to attempt to show you some pretty cool things else if I can do this just by myself.

[SPEAKER_01]: So my crawling underneath here, like look at that standard, standard rear diff protection.

[SPEAKER_01]: If I can pair that over here to the two-fifty series, right, you get your exposed rear diff.

[SPEAKER_01]: This thing has an absurd amount of underbody protection.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I got to give total a lot of credit for doing that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Look at that.

[SPEAKER_01]: You get that T-R-D.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, sorry, trail hunter skin plate right there in the front.

[SPEAKER_01]: That extends underneath the engine.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is a this is a capable impressive machine from a protection standpoint, which I really appreciate.

[SPEAKER_01]: They also give you [SPEAKER_01]: They're a little gimmicky, but they give you rigid fog lights.

[SPEAKER_01]: They give you an integrated off-road light bar.

[SPEAKER_01]: They give you the raised, air intake, all from the factory.

[SPEAKER_01]: This has got the ARB roof rack on it, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Out back, you can see how that rear bumper is integrated.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's some cool stuff in the, in the strut hunter, and of course, you know, you've got the legendary, I don't know if I have the key on me here, but I did have the key on me.

[SPEAKER_01]: now it's made it mad you have the oh man everything's falling out of this thing you've got the rear window that goes down so slightly less usable cargo space in this vehicle it also has kind of an absurdly tall lift over height you still have that high voltage battery but because the whole rig is higher off the ground it's a bit of a lift that actually get things into [SPEAKER_01]: the back seat of this thing, and then as we come around on the inside, a couple of things worth noting.

[SPEAKER_01]: I like the seats more in the forerner than the line cruiser.

[SPEAKER_01]: I find it to be a little bit more supportive and kind of grip my sides a little bit better.

[SPEAKER_01]: This trail hunter has this kind of cool orange stitching and orange piping along both edges.

[SPEAKER_01]: You also get kind of this granite finish across the dashboard and this massive screen.

[SPEAKER_01]: So if you're in the screen sizes, this forerner is going to be the choice for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: But one thing I don't like is there's no option [SPEAKER_01]: For a full-time four-wheel drive system now, you can get that on very, very select foreign models like the limited, like the platinum I believe you can get it, but they're not off road trims or more of the city slicker foreigners.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the fact that they won't sell you that in the standard foreigner with that cool viscous [SPEAKER_01]: Senator Diff, sorry.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh, my brain after what's the word I'm looking for?

[SPEAKER_01]: My brain after a full day of off-roading is fried.

[SPEAKER_01]: What's the limited slip style Diff?

[SPEAKER_01]: Tours in.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a Tours limited slip.

[SPEAKER_01]: The toy to use is in there in their off-road vehicles.

[SPEAKER_01]: But look dashboard design, a little bit more fun.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's got a little bit more pizzazz to it.

[SPEAKER_01]: You got the back [SPEAKER_01]: lit kind of Toyota emblem there in the yellow you get the trail hunter badges there along the side of the door so there's some cool things about this vehicle but might concern with this is just I have a fundamentally hard time paying seventy thousand dollars for a forerunner when you can get a land cruiser badge instead [SPEAKER_01]: with a more kind of refined interior, the better seating position, and it's easier to see out of, and I just didn't get more toe and capacity in the line cruiser, and it's standard brake controller, so I just think for me, the two-fifty's the way to go in the SUV space, but [SPEAKER_01]: We got a whole world of trucks we got to talk about.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what we have here are the two Toyota pickups in the off-road space.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we'll start with the bright orange here.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is a Tacoma.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, Tacoma's been out for a couple of years now, and there's a ton of different trims.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is a trim to get, actually.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is a TRD off-road.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is the secret within the whole total lineup.

[SPEAKER_01]: If I can re-position my camera here, is if you are looking for an off-road Toyota, largely for most folks.

[SPEAKER_01]: Skip the Pro, skip the trail hunter.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is a truck for you, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: You get the locking or diff.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can get it with, I believe, a sway bar disconnect.

[SPEAKER_01]: You get pretty decent tires.

[SPEAKER_01]: You get pretty decent other body protection.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you save a ton of money over a pro or a trail hunter.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, this is a cool color too.

[SPEAKER_01]: I really like this bright orange on this Tacoma.

[SPEAKER_01]: Interior, good of a pretty much identical to that four-utter.

[SPEAKER_01]: And all of the features we see are going to be pretty much identical to the four-unner.

[SPEAKER_01]: So from an off-road standpoint, we still have the part-time system.

[SPEAKER_01]: We have a locking rear diff, we get our stabilizer bar disconnect, cross control, multi-terrain select.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it doesn't have a brake control, it does tow more than the four-unner, which is great.

[SPEAKER_01]: Still very well equipped if you get the premium package here.

[SPEAKER_01]: You get heated and ventilated seats, duals with automatic climate control, we got wireless charging, USB-C port, you get a standard, you even get a digital rear-view mirror, so very, very well equipped machine, of course everything from the cluster to the main screen has gone full digital here.

[SPEAKER_01]: Same thing, just like [SPEAKER_01]: The foreigner, you can get it in a couple different engine configurations, I force max.

[SPEAKER_01]: I force max in this Tacoma, which means it is a hybrid trim.

[SPEAKER_01]: The key with these hybrid systems is don't expect stellar filoconomy.

[SPEAKER_01]: You might get like a one or two MPG bump over the non hybrid, but you get a lot more torque.

[SPEAKER_01]: I believe he's rated up to four hundred and sixty-five pound feet of torque.

[SPEAKER_01]: Which is a lot of torque, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, there's a couple of things that like and dislike about the Tacoma.

[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, it's a truck, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So if you wanted to build out a camper shell or an over-the-cab style camper, this is going to be a good option for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Problem is, there are some limited still on payload capacity.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go ahead and...

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go ahead and check out the payload info, twelve hundred pounds, actually pretty decent.

[SPEAKER_01]: Not bad for a mid-sizer, but what you are really limited in is rear seat space.

[SPEAKER_01]: So if we check out the rear seat space between that Tacoma and this Land Cruiser, or sorry, foreigner, you're just gonna end up with a much more comfortable rear seat.

[SPEAKER_01]: You get more slant in the backrest.

[SPEAKER_01]: You got more space for your legs.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is just a better, it's a better [SPEAKER_01]: place to spend time in the forerner than the Tacoma.

[SPEAKER_01]: Tacoma received.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just too small.

[SPEAKER_01]: Plus you don't get rear AC vents in the Tacoma and if you look at this forerner you do get rear AC vents.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there are pros and cons to Tacoma from an off-roading standpoint, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: You've got a pretty exposed exhaust which I never have liked on these Tacomas from a the part-triangle standpoint.

[SPEAKER_01]: Kind of a kind of a long tail.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then you just have a lot of sheet metal down the side of most of these that has gone relatively exposed from a armor standpoint.

[SPEAKER_01]: But still very capable of machines, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people sleep on the capability of these new force-gent Tacomas out on the trail and they will go places that you wouldn't expect them to go, especially if you get them with the stabilizer bar disconnect like this one.

[SPEAKER_01]: good articulation.

[SPEAKER_01]: Good, underbody protection for what it is, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: You don't get the fancy stamping in the skid plate, but you do get a skid plate there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I like the coals.

[SPEAKER_01]: Even though fourth gen, a little bit controversial with going turbo and hybrid only, still a good machine.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then that brings us to the oldest of the bunch now.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're looking at full sized hundred.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, first and foremost, if you want space, [SPEAKER_01]: inside and outside.

[SPEAKER_01]: Tundra is the way to go.

[SPEAKER_01]: To come over your seat, pretty unusable.

[SPEAKER_01]: Tundra of your seat, absolutely monstrous.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a really, really impressive rear seat.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then you also talk about bed capacity, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: You get larger bed, you get a wider bed.

[SPEAKER_01]: Much more usable if you wanted to put it in a camper shell back here or haul your stuff around.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is going to be the way to go from a size standpoint.

[SPEAKER_01]: The downside of Tundra is the size standpoint.

[SPEAKER_01]: So if we look at even this machine next to the Tacoma, let's come on over here and close up the store, you can just immediately see [SPEAKER_01]: the width, all right.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is a wide machine.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, it does hide its size pretty well, but a full-size truck, depending on your kind of off-roading, is just going to be tough to squeeze down the trail.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, this will do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: This has a lot of the stuff you need.

[SPEAKER_01]: This still has skin plates.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's still a good photo drive system, but it's just you're limited to some trail networks by the overall size.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then you talk about the engine, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's got a good powerful three-point four-liter twin-turbo V-six.

[SPEAKER_01]: This one also has a hybrid system, tons of power on board, which is cool.

[SPEAKER_01]: But you're also going to be using quite a bit more fuel than this Tacoma.

[SPEAKER_01]: The other consideration, which I'm going to make, because I'm a nine year old man, is just the interior comfort.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now these seats, they're a little flat and a little unsupportive, but...

[SPEAKER_01]: This is the comfortable machine, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's pretty soft.

[SPEAKER_01]: You've got tons of space.

[SPEAKER_01]: Everywhere you look, it's just, there's space and space and space.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's fairly easy to see out from the side.

[SPEAKER_01]: It'll trick you with the fall off on the hood, but it's a good road trip or better than all the rest.

[SPEAKER_01]: You get pretty much the same technology as you would find in other Toyota products.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, if we look at the off road gear, part-time for road eye system, we are locking diff.

[SPEAKER_01]: No sway bar disconnect, but this pro does have the Fox shocks.

[SPEAKER_01]: just like other pros in the total lineup.

[SPEAKER_01]: I do like driving these tundras, something about them that is just kind of nice, especially if you're just looking at dirt roads and rough running up service roads, or just long wheelbase, or comfy, they're well sorted, they don't squeak, they don't rattle, they just kind of float, and then you can carry a bajillion things in the back.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go and check out the payload on this rig here.

[SPEAKER_01]: took it in the door here, they're at the same age.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, a hundred and eighty pounds more than the Tacoma.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go see four in the payload.

[SPEAKER_01]: We've got to be kind of an interesting little comparison.

[SPEAKER_01]: Pop it open the door.

[SPEAKER_01]: It looks like we got eight, ninety, five.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's nothing.

[SPEAKER_01]: So very limited payload capacity in the trailer, especially for what's supposed to be kind of the nautro trim.

[SPEAKER_01]: Not a lot if you want to hold many, many things.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then if we jump over to this land cruiser over here.

[SPEAKER_01]: Pay a look at past the eleven hundred so look for me If I wanted to go take one of these vehicles on a adventurous off-road challenge even if it was just in the US like I typically do for me I think I'm going land cruiser this is a good balance of comfort which the tundra has more of [SPEAKER_01]: But also size.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is a nice size for trail use.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's also a lot lighter than the old Land Cruiser, so it feels much more nimble.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's got all the off-road gear plus a full-time pro drive system plus the storage capacity that comes along with driving around in a giant box.

[SPEAKER_01]: So for me, I think the Land Cruiser is going to be the choice to go with, but let's go!

[SPEAKER_01]: talk to someone that lives this lifestyle, the Overland lifestyle.

[SPEAKER_01]: And let's learn about his background and some of the pros and the cons between these vehicles.

[SPEAKER_01]: All right, everybody.

[SPEAKER_01]: So today we are joined with one of the definitive legends of the four wheel drive community.

[SPEAKER_01]: So Clay, can you introduce yourself?

[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: My name's Clay with X Overland and I've been [SPEAKER_00]: Traveling around the world and four-wheel drive vehicles for twenty years now.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we got another legend in the back seat, Talon Wave.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just listening live podcast back here.

[SPEAKER_01]: So Clay runs ex-overland and has gone on some of probably the most interesting expeditions of like the last decade.

[SPEAKER_01]: Is that fair to say in at least a new twin of vehicles?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's a lot of people doing cool things out there, but I've been fortunate to do some cool stuff, too.

[SPEAKER_01]: So kind of, I don't walk me through the genesis of Exoverland where you got the idea and how it came to be.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's see, so I was a broke and struggling artist, starving artist, filmmaker.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is like twenty [SPEAKER_00]: two thousand nine somewhere in there and I had been able to get on a couple jobs that were teaching me how to work in remote areas and tell stories mostly in Alaska and then I'd gone on a documentary team to go to Uganda and do some content working Africa and I came home from that and then that's right when the economy really took a dive in Montana in that right two thousand nine two thousand ten-time frame [SPEAKER_00]: And I lost all my work in a week from being home after being in Africa for a month.

[SPEAKER_00]: I got home within a week.

[SPEAKER_00]: I lost all my work.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I kind of hit this point where I was like, well, [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, I could either continue to look for work or I can start doing my own thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: And one night I was coming into the garage, coming out of the garage into the house that I looked in the garage and there was a stock one hundred series that I had just bought for the family.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'd kind of been working on my Tacoma at the time.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was a first gen Tacoma.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I said, you know what, maybe we could shoot a show on traveling by vehicle.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what kicked it all off.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we said, [SPEAKER_00]: We went and shot a pilot, a sizzle reel at the time, in Moab, Utah.

[SPEAKER_00]: First time I'd ever been to Moab, went and shot a little sizzler and started shopping it, and then that just grew into what is now ex-overland.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it was originally for television, but we never went to TV.

[SPEAKER_00]: We eventually went to YouTube and Vimeo and all that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we just rode the way of all that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And here we are today.

[SPEAKER_00]: So how many series have you guys done in the past sixteen years?

[SPEAKER_00]: We're working on this mistake.

[SPEAKER_00]: I gotta think that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think we're on series number seven right now.

[SPEAKER_00]: Big series.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_00]: The milestones expedition.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then we've done many other series outside of that.

[SPEAKER_00]: So over the last fifteen main years of building content where somewhere around a hundred and twenty episodes of like high end episodic content.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think what's cool about ex-Ovalent II is you guys have been not just throughout our continent, but all around the world, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, have you been to the six major ones?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so the only one I'm missing right now is Antarctica.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, sadly I had to say no to Antarctica in twenty thirteen I was gonna [SPEAKER_00]: Had the invite to go on the e-seventh expedition to cross Antarctica, but I had to say no to it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I kicked myself every second.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like the hardest continent to get to and I had to say no to it.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it's okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: We'll get there eventually.

[SPEAKER_00]: So Clay, you've been around the world.

[SPEAKER_01]: And what I think they want to talk about in this little mini podcast is the vehicles you've chosen.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you've been partnered with Toyota for quite some time.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you guys have done some really cool build-out.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you know, you talked about starting back in the old days with some of the first-gen stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: But then like you quickly moved on to four on a ride.

[SPEAKER_01]: And now you have a whole arsenal of Toyota four wheel drive.

[SPEAKER_01]: So kind of walked me through that evolution of how that's happened.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so personal vehicles were hundred series land cruiser and Tacoma in the very beginning, okay?

[SPEAKER_00]: And we used those for the start of the show.

[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't until, so we started ex-overland in twenty ten and it wasn't until twenty fifteen that we got a Toyota partnership.

[SPEAKER_00]: So up until that point, we had bought all of our own vehicles, and we've bought many cents, but Toyota started supporting us with vehicles and financial commitment, which has really helped us grow our channel.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that's when we got the four runners for Central America.

[SPEAKER_00]: And ironically, back in the day, we got kind of flagged a lot for like, oh, these trucks are way overbuilt.

[SPEAKER_00]: And now if you look around, my car trucks are.

[SPEAKER_00]: fairly moderately built, compared to what's out there now.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's so many amazing things out there.

[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, we went to Central America with a hidden winch front bumper stock steps on the back, a CBI rear bumper, a roof rack, [SPEAKER_00]: and some guts, you know, everyone to Central America like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: So our stuff was pretty bone stock at the time.

[SPEAKER_00]: And even now, with the milestone's expedition, we are doing two of our vehicles are nearly bone stock trail hunters going from the top of the world at the bottom.

[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we've built everything in between, you know, really modified vehicles and [SPEAKER_00]: to now still running stock vehicles.

[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, stock vehicles are, as we know now, they're getting really good.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, from off the lot, ten years ago, fifteen years ago, that wasn't the case.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that you kind of had to modify them a lot.

[SPEAKER_00]: But now I like Toyota and everybody's building some more built up stuff that we don't have to modify as much.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the title of this podcast is, what's the best toy at it to take around the world?

[SPEAKER_01]: And I kind of want to go through some of the pros and cons of the rigs that you've driven to some of these really remote places.

[SPEAKER_01]: So let's start with that fifth gen.

[SPEAKER_01]: What are some of the things that folks should know if they want to go on a big adventure in the fifth gen for dinner?

[SPEAKER_00]: They're bulletproof.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it is a bulletproof vehicle.

[SPEAKER_00]: the what you run into is the livability factor.

[SPEAKER_00]: So all Toyota's in general are reliable vehicles.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're all modifiable vehicles.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can get them all to the point that you want them to be at for your performance level of whatever.

[SPEAKER_00]: But there's some things that you can't change and whether you're living on top of it or living in it or out of it, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: four runners in particular you're going to have to have a rooftop ten on top you're going to be using an organizational system to access the back and so you live on top of the tent and you work out of the back right that they're also a little bit short to sleep in the back of so if you do if if you're a smaller stature a four-unner can be great to live out of the back of make build a sleep platform back there and as you start traveling the world [SPEAKER_00]: being able to sleep inside the vehicle is actually a pretty big bonus.

[SPEAKER_00]: You might want to be parked somewhere where you don't want to be up in a rooftop tent letting everyone know that you're there.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you can hide out in your car and [SPEAKER_00]: wake up in the morning and move you know but and then if you go to like Tacoma's and trucks well then that's when we can get into camper systems you can stand in the back of them you can live out of the back of them you can cook in the back of them so yeah and then you just pick your size do you want the smaller vehicle for a lot of trails and nimbleness like if you're going to be doing Central America even Africa [SPEAKER_00]: Europe where the roads are really narrow having a Tacoma or a four-runner-sized vehicle is like ideal because you just zip around as soon as you step into Sequoia and Tundra then you're like you feel really big in the in the world but [SPEAKER_00]: You also have more space.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, right.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, in general, because you've done so many of these amazing expeditions, like, do you prefer that the enclosed SUV body style for the type of travel you do or are you more of an open [SPEAKER_01]: Um, bed builder owned camping configuration kind of guy.

[SPEAKER_01]: What, what, what have you preferred over the years?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I like a truck bed.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I love building the camper system on the back.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because I like to step up into it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, when I was younger, I loved the SUV and the rooftop tent on top of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, [SPEAKER_00]: like a Land Cruiser.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can't really, you can't be the Land Cruiser, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a Land Cruiser.

[SPEAKER_00]: Bullet proof, it's amazing the heritage and you know that Land Cruiser are so famous for a very good reason.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I like to live in the back of a truck.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's just because of the configurability that offers you.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's really because the more time you spin, you see this throughout a lot of other global travelers, people that travel a lot even in the US I guess.

[SPEAKER_00]: The more you do it, the more kind of living space you end up wanting.

[SPEAKER_01]: Gotcha.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you start out on your weekend warrior world and having that rooftop tent is great, you know.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we still use them now, but for a weekend warrior trips.

[SPEAKER_00]: But if you're gonna be gone for any amount of time, or you're gonna be in multiple environments like in seasons, cold, wet, windy, all those things, and you have to live in the elements.

[SPEAKER_00]: and stepping into the back of a camper in the back turns into a pretty nice thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: I bet.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you kind of, everyone seems to migrate that way over time.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you've done a bunch with four on her.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk a little bit about Tacoma because you've spent thousands of miles in third gen and now fourth gen as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what are some of the lessons you've learned comparing the older Tacoma to the newer stuff?

[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.

[SPEAKER_00]: What Toyota has done really well is they have what they call the, they have maintained what they call the Tacoma-ness, okay?

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, Tacoma-ness is, if I hop in a previous gen or a first gen and you hop into the latest gen, you can still tell that it's a Tacoma.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Tacoma has been, if I'm not mistaken, on every single one of our expeditions.

[SPEAKER_00]: Really?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no.

[SPEAKER_00]: So the entire Pan American, the Africa series, the Nordic series, and now we have two more on our milestone's expedition this year, which is a twenty five thousand mile trip.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we've driven on every [SPEAKER_00]: of our ex-overline continents with it Tacoma.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I will say that that's my favorite truck Tacoma is my preferred vehicle to travel around the world.

[SPEAKER_01]: And now is there a generation aspect to that?

[SPEAKER_01]: Or is it just as a whole Tacoma as a whole?

[SPEAKER_00]: As we've been working through the generations over the years Tacoma has always [SPEAKER_00]: been, you know, it is always shined in one way or another.

[SPEAKER_00]: The newest generation.

[SPEAKER_00]: So now everybody is like, wow, are they going to hold up?

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, are they?

[SPEAKER_00]: Where's the durability and expression?

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, how about these turbos?

[SPEAKER_00]: How about these hybrids?

[SPEAKER_00]: How about [SPEAKER_00]: All that I can tell you this now, I've already got, let's see, I've got twenty thousand expedition miles in the neutral hunters, and I would never go back to the previous generation to come on.

[SPEAKER_01]: Really?

[SPEAKER_00]: Even with the type of travel you do to hook quite in sync or end of the new trucks.

[SPEAKER_00]: And what is it about the new gen set that gets you so excited?

[SPEAKER_00]: The drive ability of them.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, and you know, we got a lot of things that we did won.

[SPEAKER_00]: We got our, you know, we got our disc brakes.

[SPEAKER_00]: We got our, you know, our linkages in the rear of the five link versus [SPEAKER_00]: You know, standard leafs and all that.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's some good advantages to that, but it's really to me in the drive train and the hybrid systems.

[SPEAKER_00]: They are just so awesome to drive.

[SPEAKER_00]: They get out of their own way.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not the Tacomas of the past where you're like, I gotta ring it to get around.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's just ready and responsive, even with the weight of a fully built, overland vehicle.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and how do they respond to, you know, camera shells to bumpers to awesome.

[SPEAKER_01]: So even with, like, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, the new cooling needs and intercooler needs that a turbocharger in your brains, you find that like it's more difficult to modify and work around those additional requirements for turbocharged engines.

[SPEAKER_01]: No.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, nice seeing.

[SPEAKER_00]: We, so it depends on the, this is always going to come down to the level of modification that you're doing.

[SPEAKER_00]: So under X over land, we, we hardly ever do anything to the engine.

[SPEAKER_00]: We hardly ever do any tuning to it.

[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, we've only tuned one vehicle ever just for fun, okay?

[SPEAKER_00]: And then, uh, [SPEAKER_00]: where we have found the biggest drawback.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we've talked to Toyota engineers about this.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's just building in ways for electrical systems to be easier to tie into.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you, you know, traditionally your start battery was under the hood.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now with your hybrid, it's under the back seat sitting right here.

[SPEAKER_00]: So now when you're doing winch line runs and all that, like it's just adding some complication in these areas.

[SPEAKER_00]: But in general, [SPEAKER_00]: It's just like wiring any other truck, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, so, I don't know, have you seen what have you heard?

[SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm just curious, maybe I can answer it more specifically.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just grilling you on this because there is kind of this thing that we've been seeing a lot of lines with the latest generation of Toyota trucks.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, there is this belief that turbocharging of the modern era has [SPEAKER_01]: I think that there was some truth that back in the nineteen eighties, turbocharged changes put a lot of pressure in places that pressure shouldn't be for the long-term, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there wasn't the ability to kind of cool these engines in a way that they needed to be maintained so they ended up with a lot of premature failures.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm just, I'm asking, click, because you've been around the world more times and just about anybody in this planet.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, do you have any concern about the longevity of these vehicles?

[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's logical concern because there is, I wouldn't even say, concern.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's logical consideration that something that's new could fail.

[SPEAKER_00]: At the end of the day, all of these things are machines.

[SPEAKER_00]: Machines fail.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's an old adage with expeditions that expeditions are complex systems and complex systems fail.

[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: vehicles are complex systems, complex systems fail.

[SPEAKER_00]: So as we add complexity, right, which most of these OEMs are being forced to do, you know, because of government regulation and all that.

[SPEAKER_00]: So this is not just a universal or a single problem that Toyota's having.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Every automated factory.

[SPEAKER_00]: The industry is having this problem, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: So everyone's starting to solve it in different ways.

[SPEAKER_00]: But with complex, we'll come failures to a certain degree.

[SPEAKER_00]: What I fall back on, where my confidence comes from, is the years of [SPEAKER_00]: scrutiny that Toyota, especially from the Japan side, has had on the vehicle's reliability factor.

[SPEAKER_00]: For example, back in the day, you get a TRD supercharger for vehicle, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: For Toyota off the lot.

[SPEAKER_00]: So what they did there is an order for Japan and paraphrasing this.

[SPEAKER_00]: So they said, all right, TRD department, which is a US thing, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: TRD is a US thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they said, you can have this supercharger, but you've got to run all these tests on it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you have to run it for a thousand hours at this high RPM.

[SPEAKER_00]: And like essentially burn up the engine as fast as you possibly can so we can see where it fails.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then they had to submit it back to Japan.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they looked at it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And one cylinder had a slight score in it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they didn't approve it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Was this three four five seven?

[SPEAKER_00]: This is three four four.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: and five seven they had to do the same test for both fiber call yeah so then they said go back to the drawing board this can't happen right and it was the most extreme test possible right like this is like above and beyond but that is the threshold that Toyota requires of their durability yeah so when they put a turbo in the new vehicles I'm like okay [SPEAKER_00]: I know what they've done on other machines in the past, and it's going to be okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: From a personal note, I'm completely on that same train, and talking to these engineers, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: If Toya's going to do anything there, so unbelievably conservative with the longevity of every single aspect, and every vehicle they do, that I think that that online [SPEAKER_01]: Echo Chamber of Turbles are unreliable and that these vehicles aren't going to last as long as the old ones I think is just largely urban myth in my opinion and like I go back to when two fifty series came out in the U.S.

[SPEAKER_01]: is hybrid only right and a lot of the laser folks were really freaked about the hybrid system but if you actually dive deep into what makes that thing tick you realize well it's been doing hybrids now since two thousand one in the U.S.

[SPEAKER_01]: The development started in the previous right yeah [SPEAKER_01]: And if you even look at the battery technology, I mean, I've criticized what is in the past, as they're using practically antiquated nickel metal hydride battery technology, which is so energy inefficient from the density standpoint.

[SPEAKER_01]: But that's because they know, after hundreds and thousands of cycles of charging and discharging, it's going to last.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm in that same boat clay with the turbo charging system to these modern engines, that [SPEAKER_01]: If Toyota's gonna put a badge on it, it's probably going to be pretty well made.

[SPEAKER_01]: And certainly there are instances where Toyota has struggled like with the frame issues and second gen Tacoma.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now there's that discussion on three, four failures.

[SPEAKER_01]: But with any new technology, there is that risk.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think the most important thing to remember about both these issues is Toyota's standing behind the product.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they did the frame replacements and they're replacing three, fours now.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and Toyota is a [SPEAKER_00]: I know a lot of the engineers personally, okay?

[SPEAKER_00]: And like, Sheldon Brown and Mike Sweers?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Every time you get around the campfire with those guys, they talk about failing forward, you know?

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's also part of the Toyota way.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the four pillars of Toyota is, you know, it's okay to fail forward essentially.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would get the name wrong.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's all of the, okay, sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know you're going down here.

[SPEAKER_00]: The four pillars up there.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I thought that here, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: But one is, you know, going, going, find out, going to the source, figure it out.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then, but the big one is, you know, the fail forward to find out what fails and constant improvement, constant improvement.

[SPEAKER_00]: So when they do find a failure, they love to figure out why.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, you know, I heard this story of these guys, I think it was TFL.

[SPEAKER_00]: You may have heard, but, you know, they had a failure in the front point, you know, what I'm saying?

[SPEAKER_00]: And you know what, children and all those guys went and did, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we made their lives pretty miserable.

[SPEAKER_00]: But in the greatest way possible, they took it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they flew those parts to Japan with them on the airplane.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's crazy.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, we got to go figure this out right now.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they've solved that problem.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: They handled it right away.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, to the credit, they were, they were on top of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, which is cool.

[SPEAKER_00]: And again, complex systems fail.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they [SPEAKER_00]: Any new gen is going to have problems of one way or another.

[SPEAKER_00]: We see it on all vehicles.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's just part of the system.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I really think it's important that we judge any auto manufacturer by how they handle the failures versus what the failure was.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's a great way of putting it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, Clay, I want to talk a little bit about the vehicle in front of us, which is the two fifty-series Land Cruiser, which is kind of the new launch in the U.S.

[SPEAKER_01]: where they're bringing the Prado in underneath the Toyota brand now instead of just GX.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's also been a very controversial move to a lot of Toyota fans, because three hundred series, at least the Land Cruiser-Badget one, isn't available in the States.

[SPEAKER_01]: What's been your take on that?

[SPEAKER_01]: Especially now that you guys have been a lot of time wheeling one, you've got a really cool modified one.

[SPEAKER_01]: What have you thought of this platform and the decision not to bring the three in over?

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I can't wait for the day, hopefully, that they do bring it three in over.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if they will.

[SPEAKER_00]: I honestly don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: We can get, you know, you get the equivalent in the six hundred series like Lexus.

[SPEAKER_00]: So if you really do want that platform, you can find it, you just got to get it through Lexus.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: All right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Through the history of Land Cruiser, Land Cruiser was struggling with sales in the US for a long time.

[SPEAKER_00]: And even back in the day, when we got a two hundred series Land Cruiser, Samson, years ago, people said, all they'll never support you, they'll never give you Land Cruiser because they never put any marketing behind the Land Cruiser.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, there was a lot of economical reasons back in the day for that.

[SPEAKER_00]: So at the end of the day, don't forget that all these guys have to make their dealing with government regulations and they have to turn a profit.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, we as enthusiasts can really battle that because we have this passion for these things.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I do too.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I love Lancers, but there's business sense that eventually the higher-up say, well, we can't be emotionally attached to this, we have to make these decisions.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it was sad to see the Lancers go when the two hundred was done.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then we thought for a while, man, we're not even seeing them come back.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then they said, well, let's try this to fifty platform Prado, maybe it'll do better in the U.S.

[SPEAKER_00]: and we can keep the Lancers are going in the U.S.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, enter to fifty and it's been a huge success.

[SPEAKER_00]: So the way I see this is this is another good foothold of rejuvenating the Lancers are [SPEAKER_00]: name and heritage into the U.S.

[SPEAKER_00]: and hopefully that leads us to better platforms, bigger platforms in the future.

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that kind of that you were talking about the decomaness transitioning from third to fourth gen?

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that land cruiserness has made the progression as well from hundred to two hundred now into two fifty?

[SPEAKER_00]: It's tough to compare two hundred to two fifty, okay?

[SPEAKER_00]: Line cruiser two hundred versus the two fifty, even though they still have two hundred and their name, they're very different.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's Prado to Prado, light duty, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Prado is the light duty land cruiser rest of the world.

[SPEAKER_00]: So Prado to Prado, these are very, very land cruisery.

[SPEAKER_00]: I personally bought a Land Cruiser to fifty just like the one ahead of us same color everything because of how it check the boxes that we as a family wanted we wanted the Land Cruiser heritage [SPEAKER_00]: Name we love the styling of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I like the boxiness.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love the taller roof versus the the four runner, which is, you know, where they kind of compete the most.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're just different.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm over forty.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I want the Lancers.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'll say that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then if I was twenty five like my my son.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: He'd want the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the forerunner [SPEAKER_01]: So tell him I were talking about this a little yesterday because he's super deep into the modification world within the new Gens of Toyota and I want to get your take on this two clay as I know that like with third gen Tacoma with previous generation four-unner it was tough to put [SPEAKER_01]: big quote unquote big tires underneath them without getting the sauce all out and doing some do some shopping here and there.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I know like the enthusiast is complaining that like luck over at the Jeep in the Ford world, the thirty-five and thirty-seven with no body modifications at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: Has Toyota in this new gen of truck have they made improvements for folks like you that are going out and doing crazy things from the aftermarket side of things?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Some.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Toyota is a company and you know, I don't work for them.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I can't I work with them, but I don't work for them.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I don't want to speak for them.

[SPEAKER_00]: But they [SPEAKER_00]: They have a very, as we discussed earlier, a very specific tolerance to risk and modification.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because there's a whole bunch of, actually, there's a whole bunch of legalities out there in the world that Toyota is very conservative on things and other companies are not.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's just how they interpret some of the laws out there and how far they're willing to push it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Toyota doesn't really push it that hard.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's just say that.

[SPEAKER_00]: But they have made what I would say and what I've heard engineers say.

[SPEAKER_00]: We gave a nod towards certain things that you may want to do, but we were also held within our build requirements and our restrictions that we have to hit as a corporation.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we are seeing that there is more room for tires.

[SPEAKER_00]: bigger tires.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, okay, you know, we are sitting you know and that doesn't mean they don't we don't have the modified we may have to modify him a little bit But Not like we used to stop quite to that degree the problem also with this industry is [SPEAKER_00]: Ten years ago, if you had a thirty-three inch tire, you were, you had a huge tire.

[SPEAKER_00]: That was a big tire.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then that was kind of like the deal for, I don't know, ten years.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then it went to thirty-five.

[SPEAKER_00]: And now all of a sudden we're at thirty-seven's.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, everyone's wanting to put thirty-seven's on there.

[SPEAKER_00]: By the way, a thirty-seven and even a thirty-five, mostly a thirty-seven, is really a trail-specific tire size.

[SPEAKER_00]: If we're really wanting to run trails like we're about to run today, a thirty-seven is awesome.

[SPEAKER_00]: you know, but you can drive around the world on thirty three inch tires.

[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, almost all the off road tires in Africa are thirty two's.

[SPEAKER_00]: Really?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, all the overland vehicles ripping across the [SPEAKER_00]: South Africa and the land cruising stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: They might be a thirty-three.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thirty-two or thirty-three.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: So this big tire thing is definitely a US thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's super interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: But there's a reason for it, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: It's nice on the trails.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: So while we can fit a thirty-five pretty easily now on most of the new modern vehicles, you know, Talon's got thirty-seven's on his.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm be curious.

[SPEAKER_00]: What did you have to do to get thirty-seven's in there?

[SPEAKER_00]: Surprisingly not as much as you would think.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Good.

[SPEAKER_00]: So they head nod from the engineers.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's there.

[SPEAKER_00]: All right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, I mean, I think that it's from where I'm sitting.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting because, you know, I work closely with all the other OEMs and communities.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Not that you don't click as you're more plugged in than I'll ever be.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it's interesting, like, I was just on the, out on the Rubicon with with the Jeep guys, and I was talking to some of the jamboree vets have been doing it for thirty-five years.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: That the the ballooning of of tire size is just increasing increase like they said that for the first Thirty years of the Rubicon trail from the fifties for the eighties everyone was running flat fenders on twenty nine's right yeah, and then like [SPEAKER_01]: It's the end of the nineties you saw some guys on thirty-one's in the thirty-three's and then thirty-three was the tire size for a long time in the deep community and then like thirty-five became the tire size and then it was thirty-seven and now it's forty-four so it was like a exponential growth huge and he said the downside of that especially with more and more horsepower and lies modern rigs is the [SPEAKER_01]: The trails are getting chute to help because you got massive tire with a lot of torque.

[SPEAKER_01]: The great is a recipe and I've actually talked to some of the tire companies and like when is there is there a maximum where like this is going to have to stop and the BFG guys were like we're [SPEAKER_01]: in their opinion, they we were pretty much there.

[SPEAKER_01]: For the DLT standpoint, it's going to be tough to certify a tire.

[SPEAKER_00]: And there's so much engineering factors that go into the rolling resistance of a forty-four inch tire.

[SPEAKER_00]: Even a thirty-seven, even a thirty-five, that's why I'm not really sure, but it's got to be like this exponential curve of power and stress and [SPEAKER_00]: but wear and tear on your own a tree and all that stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we're gaining certain things, but it is certainly coming at a cost to the reliability of machines.

[SPEAKER_01]: So talking to folks like Sheldon, when they engineer these vehicles, like Toyota will spend hundreds and thousands of hours, for example, like on that rear suspension, you're talking about earlier.

[SPEAKER_01]: With geometries and making sure that that is the optimal geometry for honored use while still hitting their offer targets.

[SPEAKER_01]: What are you from, from what you guys do, and especially from what talent does, how do you feel about immediately pulling that stuff off and bolting on aftermarket stuff that's taking that geometry and then kind of changing it immediately?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like is there concern that what you're doing here vehicles fundamentally making it worse?

[SPEAKER_01]: That's a terrible way of putting it.

[SPEAKER_00]: But do you see what I'm trying to say?

[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a great way of putting.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so we as overlanders do a really good job of ruining our view.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so the best and most reliable vehicle that you will ever buy is the Tacoma, the Land Cruiser, the four-runner, the Tundra, off the lot and you keep it just like that, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: It'll run and that's why we always look when you go buy a used truck, you're looking for that truck that's never been modified.

[SPEAKER_00]: because we know that the modifications add stress to other components that their work designed to be.

[SPEAKER_00]: And there's no way that any OEM could design and test for all the factors of modification in the world, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because already even this year, portals blew up, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: All of a sudden everyone wants portals to their truck.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they're all in the same.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, well, did Toyota or GMC or anybody ever expected?

[SPEAKER_00]: build componentry that would handle a portal at twenty thousand dollar accessory that would go on to your vehicle.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that's like way out of spec.

[SPEAKER_00]: So they built a truck for the greatest use case scenario.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then as soon as we start modifying it outside of that, we'd become test pilots.

[SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: So now we can do it creatively and smart.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, because [SPEAKER_00]: the industry has been modifying vehicles for a long time.

[SPEAKER_00]: We already know now what we probably shouldn't do this or that because it will break.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we even understand our understanding the mechanics of the limitations of things.

[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, that's why we're kind of as ex-overland.

[SPEAKER_00]: We try to keep our build specs pretty simple and within the componentry because for one we don't want, we just don't want to break and we don't want to have to try and figure this stuff out fixing it in the [SPEAKER_00]: field somewhere in the world.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, right.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, off of that same vein, because you were so plugged into the Overland community and with X Overland and all you do, what are some like do's and don'ts if you're modifying your vehicle for a long distance adventure like you guys go on?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a great question.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you're running older vehicles, [SPEAKER_00]: The top line thing that we should be focused on is making sure that the baseline mechanical reliability is there.

[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of times people will go and they'll buy that new vehicle or that old vehicle.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's new to them, but they don't spend the money going through and making sure that the CV-Axels are new, that the bushings are new, that doing the chores of maintaining a vehicle, they'll go right to putting on advanced systems and then they have other reliability problems because they didn't [SPEAKER_00]: baseline that the vehicle is the way they should have got checked, you know.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you see it a lot.

[SPEAKER_00]: You have an older vehicle, my son just went through this.

[SPEAKER_00]: He has a two thousand fifteen truck, I believe, Tacoma, and he just went through an ARB suspension upgrade.

[SPEAKER_00]: So he just put the MT-Sixi-Fours on his truck and said, all right, and the next [SPEAKER_00]: five thousand miles watch everything because your CV axles your drive lines have all been under stock configuration for ten years for a hundred thousand miles and now you just put stress on it with new suspension you put bigger tire on it watch what grenades you know something's gonna now fail because you exponentially increase this failure rate under new stresses right so [SPEAKER_00]: CVs and that always usually give up.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, bushings and all that.

[SPEAKER_00]: They might have lasted five more years in the current configuration, but now we put all this new stuff on it, fails within three months.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, baseline your stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: Regearing is [SPEAKER_00]: Reguring was a big deal for a long time, and then the older vehicles still is like your natural gears, your Yukon gear and axle.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you can find OE gear ratios from the manufacturer, you're going to be better off.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because the metallurgy is much better in those gears versus [SPEAKER_00]: any aftermarket gear because of scalability.

[SPEAKER_00]: The cost of what it takes to make a really high end metal part for an aftermarket is way higher than it is for Toyota who makes millions of them every year.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, it's just scale.

[SPEAKER_00]: So if you can find an OE part, try to put it in.

[SPEAKER_00]: But try to do your best to reduce the pressures on the vehicle.

[SPEAKER_00]: and be really smart about what you decide to do.

[SPEAKER_00]: Instagram can be a very dangerous place.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, your ego is even more dangerous.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I want to run a big tire or this or that.

[SPEAKER_00]: It can be very cool and no doubt, it's awesome.

[SPEAKER_00]: But if you're going to go to South America, think twice about putting that thirty seven on, think about that thirty five maybe, right, or thirty four, and get more fuel range out of it, etc.

[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, [SPEAKER_00]: No, it was your original question.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, not just the dues and the don'ts and what you're seeing kind of in the Overland community these days.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so keeping your suspension usually within a two-inch lift.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, for overlands, you know, if you're doing heavy rock crawling in that's your world and you're wanting to really have high true trail performance.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's something different, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: But if we're like talking long distance travel, hitting the interstate, then getting on a trail, back on the interstate, three states over, back the home.

[SPEAKER_00]: Two inch lift is usually like your sweet spot.

[SPEAKER_00]: All the geometries can usually handle all of that pretty well.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can put a slightly bigger tire on, these newer trucks with their tinspy transmissions and the hybrids.

[SPEAKER_00]: they can handle a lot more than the other ones.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you don't really have to look at regearing because the torque and the transmissions just shift through, I guess the drag of all of that much better.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, so many ratios.

[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, just, and then modify your vehicle based off of experience.

[SPEAKER_00]: needs that you have from going out and doing it and that'll be for one the most economical and most efficient way to get the vehicle that you want.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, literally have to just go drive it and use it and then make the modifications from your experience.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that's great advice.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I figure there's not going to be an answer to this, but I'm going to circle back around what we talked about at the beginning.

[SPEAKER_01]: Having been the six continents Clay, been on all these great adventures, can you definitively say what Toyota is the best for a cross-country expedition?

[SPEAKER_01]: Is there one or is it just so use-based?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's impossible to say.

[SPEAKER_00]: It is a little impossible to say.

[SPEAKER_00]: which is so cool because that means that there's really great selection to go do it how you want.

[SPEAKER_00]: The Land Cruiser is always going to be the most scrutinized vehicle platform from Toyota because it is held at the highest degree of reverence within the corporation.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're invited to work on the Land Cruiser team.

[SPEAKER_00]: You don't just migrate into the Land Cruiser team.

[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: What you like to come work on the Land Cruiser team.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like an honor to be able to work on Land Cruiser.

[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's that, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: But the cool thing is now with this, you know, common frame.

[SPEAKER_00]: What is it the TFNAA?

[SPEAKER_00]: TNGA, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's so many of those components that had to pass the Lancers or specs that migrated into Tacoma for honor.

[SPEAKER_00]: Tundra and Sequoia.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Tundra Sequoia from the three hundred platform and four-runner Tacoma from the two-fifty platform.

[SPEAKER_00]: Prontoflat.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we're seeing a lot of what was really important for the Land Cruiser make its way into these other platforms, which makes it tough to say at which one's best.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love the Tacoma.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love the Tacoma guy.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love the Tacoma guy.

[SPEAKER_01]: Nice, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's awesome.

[SPEAKER_01]: So Clay, last thing I want to talk about is some of the great success that you guys have had because I think that you talked about the formation of ex-overland.

[SPEAKER_01]: And now it's not just the video adventures, there's all these other brands underneath your umbrella, like overland journal, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the overland collective now.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So kind of walk me through [SPEAKER_01]: How that happened and what you think is happening in the Overland space and is it growing?

[SPEAKER_01]: Is it shrinking and how that works?

[SPEAKER_00]: So the Overland space is very stable.

[SPEAKER_00]: The industry itself went through a big boom like most did through COVID.

[SPEAKER_00]: People needed to get outside.

[SPEAKER_00]: People went by vehicles and we all went camping.

[SPEAKER_00]: So Overlandy things went through the roof.

[SPEAKER_00]: That is settled off, like almost all industry.

[SPEAKER_00]: What do they call it?

[SPEAKER_00]: The COVID hangover?

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of industries have the COVID hangover.

[SPEAKER_00]: But vehicle-based exploration in the United States and globally is doing great.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's more people doing it than even before COVID now.

[SPEAKER_00]: So like, if you look at the total curve at all, it's great where we're fine.

[SPEAKER_00]: the way the reason overland collective came to be was Scott and I and Rochelle and the teams at Expedition Portal overland Journal who we've all worked together to out for fifteen some years and we've been on global expeditions together and we've always talking about this industry that we love we saw that there were so many consolidations happening from other VC money [SPEAKER_00]: inside the overline space.

[SPEAKER_00]: So happens to everybody, happen to the mountain bike industry, happen to fly fishing, happen in the hunting world, happens in the shooting world, all this stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: A niche environment, you know, our industry pops up, gets a [SPEAKER_00]: big following, eventually hits mass market, and then people see it as the new gold rush, essentially.

[SPEAKER_00]: VC money comes in, scoops everything up, consolidate stuff, and that's when a lot of heart and soul of an industry dies because it got sold to somebody else who doesn't understand.

[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we were like, okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: We love this.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is our life.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're spending our life building this industry because we love it.

[SPEAKER_00]: We think it makes better people to go out and adventure.

[SPEAKER_00]: And eventually, we're going to get to the point where we're going to have to hand this off or sell it our own companies to a degree because of the cycle of life, you know, we age out.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we're like, let's not do that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's figure out how to keep these core brands together and keep the heart and soul as long as possible by working together.

[SPEAKER_00]: Nice.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we, uh, ex-overland, we're the youngest guys in the bunch.

[SPEAKER_00]: Things, so I, uh, Scott and I worked out a deal that, like, let X overland, acquire overland journal and expedition portal, and we'll build it under this new, overland collective approach.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we all work together to keep the industry as cool and as happy as possible, uh, and it doesn't get lost out to you.

[SPEAKER_00]: VC money.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's awesome.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's awesome.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's so cool.

[SPEAKER_00]: The heart and soul behind all of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we took huge risks.

[SPEAKER_00]: Both of us did.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're taking big risk.

[SPEAKER_00]: So to all of you out there, thanks for watching the YouTube channel.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for subscribed.

[SPEAKER_00]: Being subscribers to the magazine and being on expedition portal because [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we need you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, Clayman, I really appreciate it.

[SPEAKER_01]: This was huge.

[SPEAKER_01]: Congratulations on all this success.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we've got a long way to go.

[SPEAKER_00]: Come a long way.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's never over.

[SPEAKER_00]: Appreciate the time.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, thank you.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is awesome.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well there you have it everybody.

[SPEAKER_01]: I hope you found this podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: Someone interesting it with a fun one to make and a big thank you to Toyota and Xoverland of course for making this one possible.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if you want to find more podcasts, check out our podcast over at Apple and Spotify.

[SPEAKER_01]: We've got our chat.

[SPEAKER_01]: We've got talking trucks and we also have cars which is our fun.

[SPEAKER_01]: and sort of car person podcasts.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a real blast if you haven't seen that before.

[SPEAKER_01]: And as always, head over to Altif.com if you want to find out more on the rigs behind me because I got a lot of videos coming soon on these machines.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for watching.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll see you next time.