In this episode of newts World.

The two deadliest battles of the Iraq War occurred in two thousand and four.

The Battle of Najaf was fought in the south against the Shiait Mahdi militia.

The Battle of Fallujah was fought in the west against the Sunni insurgents.

The Last six hundred Meters tells the story of these battles, not through narration, but through the words of those who fought there.

I want you to listen to a sample of the audio of this new documentary by Michael Pack Foreign Policy.

I don't make it.

I just delivered the last six hundred meters of it.

The Last six hundred Meters The Battles of Najov and Fallujah premieres on PBS on Monday, November tenth at ten pm Eastern, nine pm Central, and it's absolutely worth watching.

I'm really pleased to welcome my guest and friend, Michael Pack.

He is an award winning documentary filmmaker, president of Manifold Productions and has produced over fifteen documentaries for public television, including Created Equal Clarence Thomas and his own Words.

Michael, Welcome and thank you for joining me again on newtsur.

Thank you for having me back, Newts pleasure to be here.

The PBS premiere of the Last six hundred Meters is on Monday, November tenth, at ten pm Eastern, significantly the day before Veterans Day.

Can you start by telling us what this film is about and why you chose to focus on these two battles from the Iraq War, Najaff and Fallujah.

Absolutely, it's not only the day before Veterans Day, it's the two hundred and fiftieth day of the Marine Corps and these are mainly, but not exclusively, marine battles.

It's called the Last six hundred Meters because a sniper in the film says, I don't make foreign policy, I deliver the last six hundred meters of it, meaning what he could see through a sniperscope.

And that's the purpose of the film, to tell these battle stories from the point of view of those on the ground, not to go into the politics and policy or should we not have been in the war?

I have my opinions and know for a fact you do.

But this film is really about what it's like in the battles, ground truth that we like to say, there is no narration.

We just hear directly from participants in the battles, from corporals and sergeants to sort of one star generals who are in the field, and we've organized the film is We got the footage first of the most exciting, relevant parts of the battles and then found the people in them.

So people are talking about what they see.

And I should point out that we've conducted the interviews in two thousand and six and seven and these people were still young.

They were still the same age, and the footage their memories were fresh, and it simply took a long time to get to broadcast on PBS.

We had originally focused on technology and warfare, which as you know, was a big part of the beginning of the Afghan War with the Northern Alliance, our horses and our special forces helping them in close air support.

But as I work on the project back in two thousand and six, seven and eight, when the Iraq War was still going on, I saw that these were stories of big battles, and they were although technology was important, they were not technology depended.

They were live a lot on the heroism courage of the young men and women fighting there, and I saw those stories weren't being told.

Everyone was ameshed in the political discussion, and I wanted to tell those stories.

So that's what we did.

And I'm pleased that now, you know, many years later, it's finally being broadcast in this very important slot as PBS's key documentary going in to Veteran's Day.

I want to say, if you miss it, you can see it on Prime starting on veterans, Amazon Prime and other streaming services.

But it took so long because initially, when we submitted it to PBS a version in two thousand and eight, they felt it was too pro military.

They said, whatever that really means, which it isn't.

I mean, whatever that means, I don't think it is.

And then they wanted me to add those political stuff that we consciously took out, and every few years we begged them to put it on the air, and then Justice last year, the president of PBS, Paul Kerger, who I know, you know, I think, courageously reversed these seventeen years of other decisions, saw it with fresh eyes, saw that it was a good film, which no one has ever denied about it, and took the decision to put it on the air and in this prominent position, so I'm grateful for that.

You're dealing with young men and women who have been through a tremendously difficult experience, and many of them really are cautious about going back psychologically and revisiting what they had lived through.

How do you, as a filmmaker and a storyteller, how do you get them to open up and talk on camera?

It takes a long time.

It's really part of the work of these films.

You're right, they don't usually like to talk about these things, and you end up having to spend a lot of time with them before you start filming.

I like to say each film has its definitive kind of foods.

So with these young marines, the corporals and sergeants, it was a lot of pizza with meat on it and beer that you had to eat and drink over a lot of time to get them to agree to open up, and I'm honored that a large number of them did.

We recently had a screening in Washington where a lot of these veterans came, and a lot of them now want to show it to their wives and their children and their family because they still can't talk about it and it's a way now of talking about it to them.

I'm honored they gave us the benefit of their stories and that we could tell them, and now we have preserved them for all time.

I mean, I think it'll be just as relevant ten years from now.

And as you know, it's important to tell these battle stories that you have spent a lot of time right now at Gettysburg.

But we need to tell these stories Gettysburg or Ewa Jaima, the great battles that have defined America.

And in the case of Fallusion and Jaff, this is a kind of warfare that the world is still engaged in in Ukraine and in Gaza.

Najaff is a fairly limited battle.

About thirty US troops are killed.

The estamates are that the Mahdi Army may have lost as many as fifteen hundred.

Fallujah was a real problem because we went in first in April and May of two thousand and four and basically failed to get total control of the city.

At the end of that fight, insurgents still had large control of the city.

When we back in the second time, which was in November and December two thousand and four, we had built up overwhelming power and it was still one of the bloodiest battles of the war.

We had ninety five people killed in four hundred and fifty wounded, and we killed over twenty one hundred insurgeons.

You're describing what was a very, very difficult fight.

What led you to pick those two battles?

You describe it well.

I mean this arc of time from the first Battle of Fallujah of March April two thousand and four through November the second battle really encapsulates a lot of the challenges of this kind of warfare against As you said in the introduction, Sooni's as well as Shia, and each of them have a complex political situation.

Now we don't talk about whether politics are good or bad, but you see it to impact on the marines and soldiers in the field.

As you said, the first Battle of Fallujah, which started because four Blackwater contractors were murdered, burned, dragged through the city of Fallujah and two of their charred bodies were hung from a bridge while Iraqis and children celebrated and asked under the bodies.

And it's how horrified people that the order was to clear that city and the marines clearing the city al Jazeera and others were able to spin it and make it look out of proportion and violent, to the point where the Iraqi government pressured the US to stop, as you said earlier, and pull out and hand Fallujah essentially over the insurgents to run as their own fiefdom until the Second Battle of Fallujah.

But even though that battle feels inconclusive, it's very inconclusiveness is emblematic of a certain aspect of this war and this kind of battle where you can't just clear the city as you would want to, as the marine said, and we don't talk about why that decision was made, but what is it how the people felt, As one of the people you interviews said, well, now we're dealing with these people.

We're making a deal to give them Fallujah.

Yesterday we were killing each other.

Now we're negotiating with them.

And as he said, but what's a few RPGs between Frances a very sarcastic bitter by a great and heroic marine.

But you get a feeling of what it's like to be pulled one way or another.

And it was very similar in the jaff A very significant battle in the sense that it's a holy city of Shia Islam, and it focused on the Imam Ali Shrine.

They're one of Shia Islam's holy sites.

So you can see the politics of the Shia part of Iraq affecting the troops and Iraq is I think seventy percent Shia, so it's pretty significant.

So the arc of the battles gives you a good picture.

And the Battle of Na Jeff was much more of a combined arms battle with armie and marine.

So looking at all three enable us to give a feel for three different variations on urban warfare counterinsurgency.

It's problems politically in that sense and on the ground for the soldiers and marines that were fighting it, and I think a very clear picture emerges of what this kind of warfare is like.

And I think the most close modern contemporary analogy is Israel fighting in Gaza, where Hamasius is a lot of the same techniques that the insurgents did in Iraq, hiding behind civilians, making hospitals your headquarters, sheltering and mosques they can't be bombed, etc.

So it remains relevant in terms of contemporary warfare, but it's important to understand it historically too.

Since you are going to show this the evening before Veterans Day.

What does it tell you about how important our veterans are and what they go through to serve the country.

It's incredible what we ask them to do.

One of the people we enterviewed Seth Moulton, now a Democratic Congressman from Massachusetts, then a lieutenant the Marine Corps in Nijath.

Someone in his platoon, he tells the story, is underneath a hotel, underground, no air support, and the room is so close that neither he nor the assertion can give their rifle outs.

So they both pull their bayonets and it's a knife fight until the US Marine stabs the insurgent in the eye and kills them.

It's a brutal hand to hand combat.

It could have been one hundred years ago, and we ask them to show this kind of courage and grit, and there are many instances of that in the film.

And one of the reasons I am happy that it's playing before Veterans Day because I really think Iraqi war veterans have not quite gotten their due, and the Afghan veterans as well.

People don't like that war, a lot of them.

People have mix feelings about it.

People would rather forget it, but that doesn't change the heroism of the young men and women over there, and we do need to celebrate that in Veterans Day.

And I think what veterans want.

I mean, there's a bit focus on Iraqi war veterans on PTSD and to culties coming home, and that's all important, but I think what veterans want is for us to understand what they did, to look at their deeds and celebrate them, not just to look at their troubles and struggles.

I hope my film contributes to that.

Having immersed yourself in this what's difference you since between the wars it was actually happening and the wars it was being experienced by Americans at home in the US.

Well, I think of that.

I mean, one of the things was the sort of media spin on these wars.

You know, they dominate, and I think you lose a sense of the reality.

And there was such a big emphasis on things which it makes sense, likedthaed Abu Grabe, and that way it got covered I think contributed to the sense that these veterans are not honorable and that has been a horrible thing.

So that gap between how the media.

US media covered it and what it was like on the ground I think was sad and now maybe a few years have gone by for us to look back on reality what happened in a more dispassionate way.

You have shown this and one top honors at the GI Film Festival in Washington in the Hudson Institute Film Festival, New York.

What kind of response did you get from the audiences, especially from the veterans and their families.

Response has been overwhelmingly positive.

When we showed it very recently in Washington with these veterans and their families and we had the veterans on stage, it was like, you know, a kind of chance for veterans to air their feelings and thoughts.

It was very much you know, the film sort of released a lot of buried emotions.

I mean they want to go on and talk for hours about the film, but also about things ancelerity of the film.

We also had a small grant at one point to show it a military basis around the country and military people were incredibly positive, including senior military people.

I mean General Maddis call it classic a way to understand grad truth without politics, and as did many other Marie General's Kelly and Dunford, as well as younger Murray's, whatever their different views of the war and their politics, I think gave me a feeling that we did capture something authentic and moving.

I did make the film for those of us that are not veterans, that may not even know any veterans, to sort of better understand what they did there.

The way this film evolved, you go out, you do a tremendous amount of work, You find people, you interview them, you put together a remarkable film, and then it sits there for what seventeen years?

Yeah, seventeen years.

How do you deal with that level of frustration?

Well, as you know, I've made over fifteen films that have all been naturally broadcast on PBS.

You mentioned the last one created equal Clarence Thomas, in his own words, still streaming Amazon and elsewhere.

This is the only one that's had that experience, and it always tugged at me.

I mean, I promised all the people in it it would be nationally broadcast and it would get a big reception, and you know, I didn't really manage to do it, And I mean I begged PBS a year after year.

It was pretty upsetting.

I will say that the Marines at that screening did say that I was like a marine in my persistence to achieve the objective at all costs and not let up.

Was there a contractual reason you couldn't have taken it somewhere else?

I could have taken it somewhere else.

The principal funder was the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

I mean it felt like it should have been on PBS.

I could have, you know, maybe I should have, but I wanted it on PBS.

They put up the money.

It felt right and it's a remarkable thing.

I also thought I was going to have to update it a lot more, but I hardly did because we preserved a moment, the moment around the battle.

At any attempt updated and impose the views of twenty twenty five, and it felt like it would make it dated.

So I feel it holds up and I'm proud that it is out there now.

It was something that bothered me for seventeen years and now I'm happy about it.

So you don't get that too often in life.

What are you currently working on?

Well, we have a new company, Palladium Pictures, and people can find out about that one at Palladium Pictures dot com and our older films at Menifold Productions dot com.

So Palladium does two things.

It does long form documentaries like the last six hentimeters.

We are doing short documentaries in partnership with the Wall Street Journal Opinion section two of them already available and not behind a paywall at WSJ dot com slash Opinion Docs.

We have three in development on a variety of subjects, including withdrawal from Afghanistan or other military subject but also COVID skeptics like Jay Badicharia and the Canadian trucker convoy during COVID.

And then we have an incubator program run by my son Thomas, whom you know, to try to train young he likes to say non woke or maybe right of center filmmakers who are at least out of the mainstream and who have made a few short films and want to really expand their skill level.

And we pay for the film.

We give them a full budget, and we oversee it and help distribute it.

And we're in our third class.

You can apply now at Ladyopictures dot com.

And we feel strongly that you know, even though I have lots of friends who are left of center progressive documentary filmmakers who also make great films, because are really imbalanced in the documentary world, especially in this sort of storytelling documentary, not just sort of ones that are preaching to the choir on the left of the right.

The mainstream ones are dominated by people who really have a progressive agenda.

And although Netflix and Amazon and others say they have like thirty percent nonfiction films and a significant percentage of those have a political twist, they're all on one side.

And part of the reason is we need on the conservative side, need to develop our talent the way the people on the left are done for many decades.

So we are making a start at it.

And I'm very proud of the Softwar eight filmmakers who've gone through it, and I helped to build a community.

Not to put you on the spot, but how many years have you been making films?

Well, my wife hates me to say this, but I would say I started my company in nineteen seventy seven, right out of college, and my first major PBS documentary was nineteen eighty seven.

It was called Hollywood's Favorite heavy about how business and businessmen are portrayed on TV the era of Dallas and Dynasty.

But we went to Holly.

I went to see why Hollywood writers and producers what made businessman villains?

Do they hate businessmen?

Do they hate capitalism?

Do they know anything about capitalism?

And so it's an amusing film about it.

Issue is still there, you know, still if your evil corporation is still behind every dystopian sci fi movie.

And that was eighty seven, so it's been many decades.

The reason I ask you that is, given all of the technological changes we're living through, how much different is the process of producing film today, and how much greater, for example, for young new directors learning the trade, how much greater is their ability to do things less expensively but more creatively, more conveniently.

Just because the technology has changed so dramatically.

I think the cost so lower.

So we give our incubator program thirty five thousand dollars to these filmmakers to make a fifteen minute film.

You couldn't have done that back in nineteen eighty seven.

We're shooting sixteen millimeter film, expensive to buy, expensive to develop, expensive to edit.

But on the other hand, you know a lot of this sort of AI animation.

I mean you could do more, and then it's also more expensive, so you can go up the chain.

The high end documentaries like the Less six hundred meters or Created equal.

The price is in some ways the same, even way up given inflation, but the production value has gone up with it.

But a key thing really in this incubator program too, is really storytelling technique hasn't changed, and people there isn't a way to short circuit that.

So there's a tendency in our incubator fellows whose experience has been perhaps to make films for conservative groups like AI or Heritage, to shortcut the process by just interviewing a bunch of experts to tell the audience what to think.

And although I have a huge number of friends who are experts who tell me what to think all the time, that's not telling the story.

You know.

The lesser centermeters has a few comments by historians, but it's ninety percent of these guys in the field telling their story, and that's what viewers want to hear, you know, other things, Fox, MSNBC, whatever.

People tell you what to think all the time, and as much of that as you want.

The business of documentaries is to get first person stories, and that's its skill.

It goes back to what you asked earlier.

Just getting them to tell their story.

I had to spend a lot of time with them.

There was no high tech way to do that.

You know, as I say, a lot of pizza and beer.

I couldn't eat electronic pizza and beer.

I had to eat the real thing.

You had to spend time.

They had to trust you and attempt to short circuit that that people read right away as a betrayal of trust.

To tell stories.

The way you tell stories is very time consuming.

You know.

You really have to slow down to the pace of humans and draw out of them and maybe do a two hour conversation to get four minute.

It's very time consuming.

For instance, these Wall Street Journal films that we're doing right now, they're like thirty to forty minutes, and we conduct six to eight interviews that are two hours long.

People are always saying, well, why do you just shoot the four minutes you need?

But you can't really do that.

You have to walk everybody through the story and figure out who has the crucial moment and how does it play off the other person.

It is a huge amount of time.

It's a lot of work by the editor and editors and documentaries deserve more credit than they often get, and they editor less extre meters.

Joe Eidemeyer, for instance, did a great job.

And you work closely with the terview.

You spend a lot of time in the editing room trying this, trying that, trying, as you say, one bunch of four or five minutes from somebody and then a whole other different one until you can get it a work.

It takes a lot of time, and that's another thing.

Technology helps a little bit.

You know, you can get transcripts quickly through AI, but the trial and error and the figuring it out is in way back to the same at tech it always was.

Maybe in that way, it's like the last six hundred meters combination of high tech like specter gunships and guys with knife fights.

Jim Madis is an old friend of mine, and you know, I think he deeply personifies the whole Marine Corps sense that in the end, and this is totally appropriate in terms of their two hundred and fifteenth birthday, we just said the Marine Corps BO.

You have all those young guys, but they are young guys who represent two hundred and fifty years, and it takes a long time to build the kind of a spree de corps and commitment that is sort of typical of the Marine Corps.

It really does.

People always say, well, who needs the Marine Corps?

It's not logical.

They're not on ships, you know, like they were in the eighteenth century.

Why can't they just be followed into another service?

And if you are just looking at it logically, that makes sense, But then you would get rid of this incredible institution with incredible strengths.

They give America huge war fighting capability just because of what you said, it because of the tradition.

And there is no marine that isn't conscious of the two hundred and fifty year tradition.

You know, a lot of Americans are not conscious of their history, but that is not true in the US Marine Corps.

I think in that sense, the last six hundred meters is not an important story about battles, but it's an important story about an American institution that is unique and that all of us can be proud of.

And that coming up on the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of the Family of the Corps earlier than the decreation independence.

It's a remarkable thing, and I think that what you've done is a real contribution to America and to understanding what it takes for America to be successful.

Well, thank you, Nut.

That's high praise coming from you, a historian and a knowledgeable filmmaker, both as well as all your other qualities.

Well, we've been friends for a long long time.

I want to thank thank you for joining me.

You're a film.

The Last six hundred Meters The Battles of Najaff and Fallujah premieres on PBS and Monday, November tenth at ten pm Eastern, nine pm Central, and will be available at PBS dot org and the PBS app.

Now we're going to have a trailer from the film.

It was almost as though there was a boogeyman out there.

We were facing a lot more enemy than we had the capability to deal with.

Doug trenches, they fortified houses, they were ready.

We wanted to go.

We were just waiting on the edge of a knife.

When are we going to get to go?

The order is seize the city.

RPGs, small arms fire from everywhere.

Come.

I told him that I wanted to go, and he he looked at me and said, sorry, you're going to die.

The destructions.

It's just horrible.

The hardest thing about fighting this enemy is they're not afraid to die.

They're not afraid to die.

Then how do you fight him?

Wrapped one down, be prepared to start at one end of the city and fight your way through to the other end.

There's firing going on, their grenades being thrown in the house.

Became a hand to hand fighting.

It was so close.

Two selfless marines run across this kill zone four times to pull marines out of there.

I wasn't worried about, you know, getting shot or getting wounded.

I was worried about the guys to my left and right.

You always want to reassure these men that they've done their duty, because.

That memory is seared into their soul.

They never forget it.

None of us do.

Foreign policy.

I don't make it.

I just deliver the last six hundred meters of it.

Thank you to my guest, Michael Peck.

Newsworld is produced by Ganglish, Sweet sixty and iHeartMedia.

Our executive producer is Guarnsey Sloman.

Our researcher is Rachel Peterson.

The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley.

Special thanks to the team at Ganglis Sweet sixty.

If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to up a podcast and both rate us with five stars and give us a review so others can learn what it's all about.

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