Hi Warriors, welcome to One and Three.

I'm your host, Ingrid.

Today we're diving into a powerful healing modality that's been changing lives.

EMDR therapy.

Joining me is my guest Laurel, a licensed therapist, who's going to walk us through what EMDR is, how it works, and why it can be such an effective tool for trauma recovery.

Here's Laurel.

Hi Laurel, thank you for joining me today.

Hi.

So before we get into our topic, I would like to for you to give a background just so listeners can get to know you a little bit.

Yeah, well, as therapists go, I'm kind of uh one of the weirdos in that I always knew this was the plan for me.

That I always knew that I was going to be involved in helping people build their and identify their resilience, tell and reframe their story, and really make the journey from victim to survivor in some capacity.

And I knew this at age 12 after I had my first therapy session.

And that, you know, I know very few people that are still on plan A, my father being one of the only other people, because most of us have many careers in our lifetime.

Um, but you know, knowing that early on, um, all the choices that I was making as a young adult were putting me on this path towards being a therapist and having this trauma specialty.

And I think that's probably the most important thing for people to know because it feels like the most salient part of my professional identity is like this was plan A and no regrets at all.

Yeah.

That's crazy because at 12, I don't I don't know that I even thought about the future at all.

And I know that I'm I laugh at myself because I went just I went on to become a nurse practitioner.

But at one point in one of the yearbooks, I put that my goal was to be a housewife.

So that was even after 12 years old.

So it's pretty amazing that you already knew.

I think I've always been a future-oriented person, which sometimes pulls me out of the present moment, which is not always a good thing.

So aiming for more mindfulness.

Right.

I can relate to that.

I'm always looking toward the future too.

So okay.

And is there a specific area of therapy that you were going for that you definitely wanted to get into?

Um I had to dabble a bit because you don't know till you've done it if it's your thing.

So uh in graduate school, I you you have to do a bunch of different placements, much like nursing, I assume you kind of do, you know, rotations.

And um, I worked in a family medical clinic, which in California there's the public health insurance.

So working with low-income families and kids, working in a middle school as the therapist.

And that I I did have some regrets then.

I was like, I don't know if I should have become a therapist.

Like middle school is rough.

But then I started working with adults, and I'm like, oh no, this is great.

I love this.

It's it's just those middle school years are rough.

Oh yeah.

I have I have two middle school boys right now.

So yes, I can't.

But um even before I was in graduate school, um, I I knew this was the path.

And so I was a psych major and like looking at um wanting to get some more hands-on experience.

And I ended up doing an internship at the local rape crisis center.

Um, we don't call them that anymore.

We usually give them a little bit more of a kind of vague name, but you know, it was right across the street from my college.

I had a great relationship with the person that was supervising and training me there.

And that really set me on the path towards working specifically with trauma and having somewhat of a niche in sexual trauma.

I imagine that's a very specific niche.

Um, not a lot of people specialize in those areas.

But I also feel like it shouldn't be because, you know, one in three.

Right, right.

And, you know, if you're a therapist worth your salt, you have to be trained in trauma.

And if you work with, I mean, I'm not even gonna say women, like you're going to encounter sexual trauma on your caseload.

So I feel like I think probably a lot of therapists are have some skill.

It's just not something that they've sought out like specific training and had specific experience around hospital accompaniment and like the kind of initial crisis period right after a trauma.

But, you know, many of our clients come in with sexual trauma.

Do you have you ever, even in your training or or now, have you had to go into hospitals or get calls or anything from emergencies?

Very briefly, yes.

I I I only went in a couple of times.

Um, but I'm really glad that I had that experience.

I think it helps to have that kind of like immediate aftermath experience to understand that like there's no normal in terms of how someone acts or behaves or thinks.

Like there would be people who would be like laughing the whole time they were in the hospital, and some people who were completely dissociated, and there's some people who were like just so overwhelmed or like beside themselves, and and all of those are normal and okay.

Right.

So just understanding that you go into a part of your brain that is just you know reptilian.

Oh yeah.

And the people say that all the time, you know, everyone is always judging how others react to different traumatic events, you know, especially the ones that the big news ones.

Um do you do people refer to you like if you are a therapist and you're seeing somebody and then you realize that this trauma might be too much for me, I need to refer them out to someone who specializes more?

Sometimes, yeah.

Um I mean, trauma tends to manifest in a way that like it's very rare that it would just like suddenly be uncovered because there would be symptoms that would be showing up in relationships or sleep or something like that we can kind of tell.

So it would be pretty rare that it would surprise a therapist after they've already been working with them for a while.

And um, but what I do see a lot of in my practice, and I actually have um multiple clinicians in my practice, we've just a very small little group, and we all specialize in EMDR therapy, which is totally research-backed, looks and feels totally weird, but it it does work.

And we do get a lot of people that refer to us for adjunct EMDR work.

So they'll be doing talk therapy with someone else and then coming for this very specific type of trauma processing with us.

So, yes, that we definitely get plenty of referrals for because it's there's so much research specifically on EMDR for sexual trauma, um, that like you don't want to just be throwing spaghetti at the wall.

Like you want to try something that's like very likely to work on the first try.

Yeah.

And I'm I'm glad that people are referring out to it and not trying to just, you know, watch a YouTube video and go and jump in and say, I can do it.

It's actually a very nuanced modality.

Like it looks very simple on the outside, but like the neurobiology of trauma and how do you actually rewire the brain, yeah, that that's that's gonna be more than watching a YouTube video.

Right, right.

Um, okay, so let's let's talk about EMDR because it is so detailed.

Um, I I did it twice.

Same therapist, uh two different memories, but um, and did it, it was amazing.

So yeah, let's let's talk about it.

Yeah, I love it.

I love it because it feels I mean, it feels so good as a provider to have something that is so effective that people can often see like pretty tangible results quickly, and that actually allows them to like just feel free, to feel like they are like not carrying it around with them anymore.

It's not that it's like we've erased the memory and it's like that eternal sunshine of the spotless mind.

It's not that, it's just like what happened was not okay, and I'm okay now, even though that happened.

That's what EMDR does, like truly on like a body level, feeling that way.

I'm okay even though that happened.

So yeah, I love talking about it because it's it's incredible.

Well, and so you mentioned rewiring the brain.

So can you talk a little bit about what trauma does and then what EMDR hopes to do, I guess when you're when you're doing EMDR?

Yeah, yeah.

So interrupt me at any time that I start using like jargon.

Okay.

I'm gonna try and explain it like really simply.

So when something that is a real or perceived threat to your safety or your livelihood or your kind of homeostasis happens, the brain categorizes it differently.

It flags it and says, Oh, this is something important.

We need to remember this.

So it's kind of like putting a big, you know, red flag on this memory because we need to remember this to protect you in the future.

And so you become hyper-vigilant because of this.

And that hyper-vigilance, it's exhausting, it interrupts your sleep, it disrupts your relationships, and it can, I mean, I don't need to tell listeners how you know disruptive trauma can be.

But if you're thinking if you kind of have this like cartoonish visualization of the brain, that there are these memories that have these big red flags on them, you're gonna devote disproportionate resources to those memories.

Even if something is likely to never happen again, the brain is like, this is still important, this is still important, right?

And what EMDR does is basically like take the red flag off of that memory and be like, you know what?

Yes, we needed this information to protect us and to get through at the time.

And we can also store this with all the other memories because we don't need your body to suddenly get totally like jacked up and activated every time you think about this.

That's no longer necessary.

So it really cuts that tie between the memory and that like physiological reaction that you have.

So you can think about something upsetting and feel physically neutral.

That's what EMDR can do by storing the memory in multiple places in the brain rather than just in that one flagged spot.

Okay, so it like it sprinkles it out.

Yeah.

Okay.

And it ties it to other memories that are somewhat neutral to positive.

So I like to say we create these little trauma islands, and once we find ourselves on trauma island, it's hard to get off that island.

And EMDR either like gives you a boat or like builds bridges so that anytime you end up on the island, you can get off the island with no problem.

You don't feel trapped and scared.

Now, there's a little bit of work you need to do before you jump into EMDR.

Yeah.

To right.

Yes.

And actually for some people, it's a lot of work.

But um, and this is actually the number one red flag that I would say if you're doing EMDR and your therapist skips this, that's a big problem.

I totally understand the desire to get to the cool part of EMDR, which is the reprocessing, which is the thing with the eye movement or the tapping or the beeping or whatever bilateral stimulations being used, which we can talk about.

But I get people wanting to get to the part where they're actually going to see some results.

But the problem is if you've not done the prep work and you don't yet have coping skills to handle the intensity of EMDR, because EMDR hinges on you being able to fully access what happened without it being kind of muted or pushed away to like really sit with the discomfort of the memory.

If you have not prepared at all and you have no coping skills and self-soothing strategies, EMDR is going to be too intense and you're likely to drop out and not want to continue and not see the benefit.

So that preparation and resourcing phase, which EMDR has eight phases, and that's phase one and two.

And some people think, oh yeah, I'll just come in and we'll like talk for a few minutes and then I'll move my eyes and then the trauma will go away.

No, no.

No.

It I would say it's it's not super common, but um, we definitely have had people in our practice that we spend a year on those first two phases.

Because um, with complex trauma, with relational trauma, particularly complex childhood trauma, you're not gonna have those coping skills ready to go.

And it's gonna be way too difficult to just okay, let's talk about all your trauma.

That's gonna be a really negative experience.

So it is uncommon to spend that long, but I've definitely seen it a handful of times in the uh, let's see, almost seven years that I've been doing EMDR.

Okay.

And can you talk what happens when you get to the point of EMDR?

The the processing.

Yes.

So um first you do what's called targeting, which is you you talk about the memory.

Now, you don't have to be super detailed in what you tell your EMDR therapist.

So if there's something that feels like, yeah, I just can't say it out loud, but it's very present in my mind and I'm very much with it, then then that's okay.

But to to fully target something, you access the memory and then you identify the negative thought, the emotions, the body sensations, and the visuals that go with it.

And um, please don't do this at home.

You cannot self-EMDR.

No.

And then the therapist talks you through a series of exercises while there's either tapping or beeping or a light that you follow.

Uh, and over time the intensity of the feeling around that target goes down.

And if it doesn't go down, you're not doing anything wrong.

Your therapist needs to figure out what what the stuck piece is.

Um, because in an uncomplicated EMDR scenario, let's say I'll pick one that's unlikely to resonate with with listeners.

Let's say uh a college athlete has an injury and they the their target is like lying on the field looking up and like their they can they know that their ACL is torn or something.

And um they come into EMDR therapy and uh the disturbance they feel when thinking about lying on the field um is like an eight out of 10.

And then over time, over several sessions, it gets down to a zero.

And they can truly access the memory.

They still remember it.

They often say it's fuzzier, it's harder to access.

They're like, Yeah, I mean, I know I was on the field, I know the grass was green, I know my teammates were there, but like I it's it's a lot blurrier to me now.

And they can think about it and be like, yeah, but I'm still here in this room and like I'm actually kind of hungry and thinking about what I want to have for dinner, which usually when we think about a trauma, like we get hijacked back into the trauma.

So it can go from a 10 down to a zero, and that's the goal.

Now, always be honest with your EMDR therapist.

Don't just say it's going down to a zero because you think it should.

Like, be honest about the level of disturbance that you feel.

Um, and that's of course a very textbook case.

It goes from a 10 to a zero immediately, and it's definitely not usually within one session.

Um, although sometimes.

Yeah.

I uh I remember my therapist asked how familiar I was with EMDR before we started.

And I said, I'm a little bit, but the way my brain works is it will put a stop to anything if I can figure out what's supposed to happen.

So I said, give me what I need to know.

And but don't go into too much detail because otherwise my brain's just going to be like, no, we're not doing this.

And you know, at first, good insight.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, I know my brain's a pain in the butt a lot of times.

Um, but I remember when we started at first and and she did the finger movement back and forth.

And I remember watching and I was like, this is ridiculous.

I know.

Oh, it to I still feel that way, and I've been an EMDR therapist for years.

Yeah.

It it's totally bizarre.

It is so bizarre.

You you're gonna do what?

And it's gonna make my trauma go away.

Like it takes a lot of blind faith.

And for people who, you know, if their trauma is, you know, a 10 out of 10, that is a big ask to like be that uncomfortable in a room with a therapist, and they're waving their hand saying it's gonna make it like it, it's absurd.

It looks and sounds absurd.

Yeah, it really is.

And I remember thinking, like, yeah, yeah, I'm at my trauma and I'm there.

And I'm like, but I'm not because because I'm not I'm blocking myself, and it took a while for me to really get into it, and um it's so emotional, like every single emotion, not all right away.

This was multiple, multiple sessions, but yeah, yes, it went through um all sorts of emotions, emotions that I didn't even know were there.

Um, but yeah, it was a very, very vivid memory.

Yes.

I think one of the strengths of EMDR is that it puts you into a feeling and reacting state that sometimes we mentally override, particularly, you know, people that are smart, academic, you know, driven, that we can be a a little cerebral.

And that sometimes gets in the way of our healing.

That if we actually tap into reactions and our body sensations, then we're like, oh yeah, yeah, there's something here.

Yeah.

Well, and that's what she kept saying.

She's like, that was a lot of work that we had to do before we started EMDR was for me to recognize in my body when I was feeling certain things.

And that was very strange for me because I'm a very head thinker, you know, everything's from my head.

And so um tapping into actually the the feelings that my body was experiencing and where in my body and how to describe it, uh, that was very strange.

Um, but it is like you said, you're in the present.

So you do have to dive into that memory, but you know it's safe because you're not actually there.

Well, and a lot of people don't feel safe because they they mentally go back into it and really feel fully in it and are having a very unsafe physical reaction.

Um, but you can lot you can logically know you're safe and not feel safe.

And I don't care if someone logically knows they are safe after a trauma.

My goal is to get them to feeling safe, like actually believing with their body that they're safe.

That's the goal of EMDR.

Because we can all like logically look around and be like, yep, I'm in my house.

And and yet, if you were to think of a car accident you were in, you would feel like you were in your car and it was happening, even if you logically know.

So um, so yeah, it is that disconnect between what we logically know is true and what our body is telling us is true.

And when we have a particular like mental defense against bridging that, uh, it it can be challenging.

And EMDR is really good at overriding that.

It also sounds uh maybe I I think I was picking up on like a little bit of dissociation that was happening.

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah.

Which like no judgment.

In fact, like let's thank dissociation for protecting us for so long because it is an adaptive coping strategy.

Sometimes we have to dissociate to survive because the intensity of being in the present moment is unbearable.

So, like, thank goodness dissociating is an option, and it can become maladaptive when it gets in the way of your life and enjoying like the depth of quality of relationships and work and like emotional presence with things, and it can interfere with trauma healing.

Because if at the first sign, at the first sign of trauma you dissociate, well, yeah, then we really gotta build up that toolkit to handle um the intensity of the trauma so that we don't dissociate because we do have to be fully present with it to process it.

Oh yeah.

Um my my therapist had a lot of work cut out for her because you know, I got out of my relationship and I thought I was fine.

I was like, oh, that was that was easy, you know, and carrying on life.

And then all of a sudden I was like, oh, why is why are they saying that?

Is that my true friends wondering what their intents were by intentions were by what they were saying, and like nothing was harmful.

And then I realized I'm like, I don't think I'm okay.

And so I went in, um, and I told her, I said, Listen, this happened and it's in a nice little box and it's up on a shelf in my brain.

It's there, I know it's there, but I don't want to take it out of the box.

I just want to leave it there.

Like, let's just store it away.

And yeah, it was a lot of work before we did EMDR.

And then it got to the point she's like, Do you want to consider EMDR?

And um, like when you said that light feeling, uh, the second time we did it was specific to that um trauma for my relationship, and it was all of a sudden just like this heavy weight just released, and I'm like, I almost feel like I'm floating.

This is the weirdest feeling, and I couldn't, I was I had been crying profusely before, and then all of a sudden I'm smiling and I'm like, Whoa, this is the best feeling.

Yeah, it's incredible.

Um you know, if you had come to me and said, if you would had come to me as a therapist and said, Hey, uh, everything's in this neat little box, I don't really want to touch it, I would have said, Would you be okay with me keeping the box for a little bit?

Uh-huh.

And then maybe someday we can open it together, but pack it up before you leave the office every time.

And then interestingly, the box is not needed.

And actually, that's a tool that we use in EMDR if we don't complete a target in a session, which is very common that we don't complete a target.

We put we imagine putting it in a box, and then I say, Okay, you're gonna leave the box with me, and then we'll come back to it next week.

I also like when I went in, I also knew that I that box had to get opened and I had to, and I was super, I'm like, listen, let's do this.

I was that person like, oh, EMDR, yeah, let's do it now.

Am I going to be better like in an hour?

That's awesome.

No, um no.

So are there any side effects?

I don't know if that you would call it side effects, but uh to EMDR that people should be aware of.

Yeah.

Um, if you're taking any kind of psychotropic, actually any medication, sometimes there can be interactions.

Um, you know, like I was once working with someone who had to be on beta blockers, and so I had to talk to her doctor and we got like special permission.

Like, don't take a beta blocker before EMDR because it'll prevent you from getting activated.

You know, um, so sometimes there can be like a medication interaction if you're heavily using drugs or alcohol, also can affect the effectiveness.

But as far as side effects of EMDR, um I hear what the thing I hear the most is feeling really tired or having like a mild headache.

Um, when I was doing EMDR with eye movements, um, when I was working primarily in person, I was hearing much more headaches and eye strain.

But um these days I do mostly either the beeping or tapping.

Um, it's like a butterfly hug on yourself, and I guide you when to do it.

Um, and we're not gonna have eye strain with that because there's no moving the eyes furiously back and forth that was causing a lot of headaches, uh headaches and eye strain.

But uh headaches are somewhat common.

I mean, like you're building new neural pathways, you're gonna be tired.

That's hard work.

Your body is generating new connections.

So, so yeah, I would expect tiredness and I would expect maybe you know, mild headache.

If you have any like really, really notable side effects, um, talk to your therapist about it.

Yeah.

I had, I don't even know if it was my therapist that told me.

I think it was maybe somebody, an acquaintance that had done EMDR said that they had really strange dreams after that.

And so I was I was all anticipating.

I'm like, oh, I can't wait to see what my dreams are.

But I did I think I was so fatigued that I didn't dream.

I don't think I I mean I might have had some dreams in there, but nothing that was notable for enough for me to say I had the weirdest dream.

Um I I do hear about weird dreams, occasionally a disturbing dream, but you know, we're we're we're stirring things up, you know, stuff is coming to the surface.

And um it's very rare that I've worked with someone who's not seen some relief from EMDR eventually.

Yeah, I I mean I had a huge, a tremendous, tremendous change.

Um did have you found that either the eye movement or the the audio does one work better than another?

Or is it does it just vary per person?

Okay some people are really visual people with a really visual person.

Um I I might try the eye movements.

It's a little awkward because I work virtually, so for the eye movements to happen, they would have to be so close up to their screen that it would feel weird.

Like I like seeing just like the whites of their eyes.

Oh, that would be so weird.

Um But I always start with the butterfly tapping, um, just because uh I can vocally guide it and it also helps people stay more connected to their body, which I think you can kind of separate the head out more.

Um, and then the beeping if people are really like, you know, um sound oriented.

Some be and you know, if it's not working with one form of bilateral, um I just try another.

Most of the research has been done on the eye movements, so I think that a lot of people default to that.

Um, but it's rare.

I I don't think I've had anyone that didn't respond somewhat well to um butterfly hold tapping.

And I think because it is in the body and can ground you in the present in in a way.

Um yeah, the research would say start with eye movements, but that's because that's how all the initial research was done.

Um Fran Dr.

Francine Shapiro, who discovered and developed EMDR, um, she was walking through a park in Brooklyn and thinking about something upsetting and moving her eyes side to side.

And she found after a while that she the upsetting thing wasn't upsetting.

And she was like, huh, I wonder what's here.

And so she spent the rest of her career researching what is this bilateral stimulation and how does it affect the way memory is processed, and from that built the protocol for EMDR, which is what's used today.

Wow, I had no idea.

That is crazy.

So the the eye movement part, it were they thinking there was a link, like when you go to sleep and you have, you know, the rapid eye movement when you're sleeping.

Is there any connection with that?

I don't know.

Um, but uh what we do know is when there's bilateral stimulation, so side to side movement of some kind, it does help with uh memory kind of like cataloging and and the way that things are stored.

And I think that this is me.

Just theorizing.

But as we become a more and more sedentary society, I think you know bilateral movement is less and less a part of our day.

I think we're seeing more and more unprocessed trauma coming up.

We're less in touch with our bodies, we're not moving very much.

Uh and uh yeah, there's something there, I think.

Oh, that makes sense.

I'm also thinking that I wish I would have known about the butterfly tap when I was in college.

Like, would it would it have made me remember everything for exams and stuff?

Well, if um if people want to try a resourcing activity, because obviously we would never process trauma on a podcast when I can't see you or you know, um the can't see listeners.

Um but you can use the butterfly tapping to enhance your access to positive memories and sensations.

And I actually would recommend this.

So let's say you like go on a really beautiful hike with a friend, like that night, just spend some time reflecting on just that the beauty of the day and the connection and the views and like the sun and the animals and how you felt in your body moving out in nature.

Spend some time like vividly recalling that and tapping side to side.

That will enhance your resilience and your ability to cope, and it will give you wider access to those positive feelings.

Yeah.

And and I always forget that people, not everybody is watching and that some people are listening.

So the the butterfly tap is like your arms are across each other and you're just tapping holding your shoulders across your chest and tapping side to side alternately.

Yeah.

Okay.

Um is there anything about else about EMDR that you can think of?

I hear a lot of people ask about like complex trauma or like, does it work for things beyond trauma?

Okay.

And the answer is yes, but you need a skilled EMDR therapist, like probably one that um understands attachment very well, that is doing a very thorough resourcing phase.

I have a clinician like this on my team who like her specialty is complex trauma.

And um she it really is about like how do you repair those early attachment relationships that you didn't get?

How do you kind of give yourself the nurturing and the safety that you never experienced?

So you can with a very strong relationship with your therapist and a very skilled therapist who understands yeah, we're not just processing acute incidents here, and that they have kind of a game plan for how they approach that.

Um and just in case somebody doesn't know what complex trauma is, yeah, it's it's anything that occurred like in relationship with a primary caregiver or like it kind of deprived you of a sense of safety and stability, and like knowing there was a nurturing adult there to protect you as a child.

So that might not even be something that somebody's aware of right away.

I mean, fish don't notice the water.

I've never heard that it's been your normal, if it's always been your normal, then yeah, you're gonna walk through life feeling hyper-vigilant, feeling distrustful of others, feeling like the only safety is in yourself.

And that's completely understandable in that scenario.

Now, is that EMDR the same as if you're dealing with a specific trauma, but it's just you need somebody that's more trained into more trained, and they want to also be incorporating elements of um potentially like parts work, internal family systems, attachment theory, tons of resourcing, and uh there's something else that I'm thinking of that it just um ran out of my mind.

But they they need to be it's a more creative approach rather than okay, this memory, then we're gonna go through the whole, you know, cycle of it because it is really complex.

And so the that would be a much longer term treatment.

And uh your so your company is called Laurel Cl Collective.

Laurel Therapy Collective.

Okay, Laurel Therapy Collective.

And is it um your is it all virtual or do you do it?

All virtual and we can serve people in California and Florida.

Okay, so how would people get in touch with you?

Yeah, our website is Laureltherapy.net.

Okay, that's easy.

Um, is there anything that you think that we've missed at all?

No, I don't think so.

I think we covered it.

I think I mean EMDR is great.

Actually, um, just to get into the history of it, was there any specific kind of trauma that it was initially directed toward?

Well, I mean, our understanding of trauma is evolving.

And a hundred years ago, you know, people were coming back from World War I a little different.

And people, so the term shell shock was developed.

And, you know, people thought only combat veterans could experience trauma.

But then they realized actually the next group to be included in our understanding of trauma was sexual trauma survivors that they were seeing like, huh, these people that have had sexual trauma and these people who've been like in active combat are showing the same symptoms.

Fascinating.

So then after Vietnam, like actually like a lot more research went into studying trauma.

But as far as EMDR, they first used it on combat veterans and first responders, um, that these kind of big T, like acute traumas, even though they're not really acute, if you're in an active combat zone, there's going to be multiple traumas all the time.

But kind of these like um, you know, discrete periods of time where it's like, okay, you come back from your tour of duty, and then that's like um theoretically over, but it's never over.

Um, so they did a lot of early research on EMDR on combat veterans and on first responders.

And EMDR had gained some traction by then, but I remember that after 9-11, a lot of first responders were wearing these little buttons that said EMDR, it's effing magic because it's not a modality that requires a ton of talking about your feelings.

Like, there's definitely like some talking about feelings, but there's kind of an efficiency and like an economy to it where, like, you know, like a police officer or a firefighter, like who maybe isn't a therapy person, might be more comfortable with it, even though it looks and sounds totally woo.

Once you're like, oh, there's science behind it.

They're like, Yeah, okay, I want to be able to go back to work.

Yeah, and it's almost like you you're like an active participant in it.

I mean, you have to be.

I mean, you're an active participant in all therapy, but it's like you're really actually working to get to that.

Um you can stop anytime you want.

Like it's not hypnosis, like you're not, you do not lose control at any point.

You might feel really overcome with emotion or like you know, overwhelmed, but um, but yeah, you're always in control.

Yeah.

For me, I found, you know, there would be sometimes I'd, you know, be there, be wherever, and I'd feel okay.

And then all of a sudden, just a wave of emotion would just hit and I would start crying.

I was like, where did that come from?

And um, because yeah, I had separated myself from a lot of it.

Um to survive and adaptive coping.

Exactly.

Your body was telling you maybe this isn't working anymore.

Right.

So, what how does it happen with um like somebody who was in combat and there's multiple incidents of trauma?

Is do you have to do it for each individual one or do you focus on like a major traumatic?

Yeah.

Not you don't usually have to do each one.

That's a great question.

Like, do you have to process every trauma in your life to experience related art?

The answer is no, you do not.

So most trauma falls in like somewhat of a chain.

Like we have um we all have like a couple chains, right?

Like that there's, you know, um, like I'll I'll make something up.

Like you have a chain that is the I'm not lovable chain.

You have the chain that's I'm not safe, you have the chain that's I'm not capable, right?

And then if you can find a spit like the linchpin memory in those lines of dominoes that have been set up, if you can knock out the right one, it'll take the rest with them often.

Oh, that's a great description of that.

Yeah.

So, you know, even though I work with incredible people and a lot of them very accomplished, very successful, ambitious, and I'm no longer surprised.

But often if we like are taking like a feeling state or something that we're like, yeah, why do why do we have this thought or this fear that's coming up?

It goes back to like being forgotten at school or like something like that.

Like, you know, these like badass people.

Yeah.

And this, like, yeah, I was forgotten at school.

I was the only kid there.

I was like sitting in the, you know, sitting in the I know, I know.

And you know, these, but these memories, like we can logically as adults know, like, yeah, I was perfectly safe.

Like my mom had car trouble that day, but still we go back into this, like, I'm forgotten, I'm alone, you know?

Yeah.

Um, so when we can find it, doesn't have to necessarily be objectively the worst thing that's ever happened to you.

It's just that linchpin domino, and taking that one out eliminates the whole string.

Now, sometimes you have a whole bunch of linchpin dominoes, but if we tend to have clusters.

So with the combat example, it would be like, was there a first or a worst event that happened?

And you would start with that one and then see if the other ones fall with it.

Okay.

Um, and if they don't, it's like, okay, that's interesting.

I wonder what else is going on here, and then kind of getting in there until you until the line falls.

Oh my goodness.

Yeah.

It has to be exhausting for you too, right?

Like, I feel like I know.

No, no.

I mean, I would need to sleep.

It's so energizing because like I get just enough sessions a week where there's like resolution or like a breakthrough, or like, you know, someone like has like such a beautiful outcome, and like, you know, they like unlock a new part of themselves, like they're in a new relationship and it's actually a healthy one, or like, you know, they get a job offer or like they take a big risk and it pans out.

Like, there's so much of that that I'm privy to that I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna get in there with you and figure out which of these we need to clear out so that you can like live a better life.

So it's not exhausting at all.

I don't think I have a hard job.

Oh, okay.

Well, that's good because I think you have a hard job.

Um, all right.

You already gave the website.

So we have how to get in touch with you.

Um, do you have any lasting like uh encouragement or wisdom that you would like to leave with listeners?

Yeah.

Um, yes, I definitely do.

First, I want to say if you want to learn like in a lot more detail about EMDR, we actually have a free webinar you can watch at any point on our website on the EMDR page where we actually made like a fake client and we walked through all eight phases of EMDR and what that looked like for her.

Um, and like what so and it it is the college athlete example to hopefully not be too triggering.

So, and we don't go into any like description of the injury.

Um, but so that's available.

But um, yes, the last thing I want to say to people is you're never gonna feel 100% ready for EMDR.

Like, just like you did.

Like you can come into therapy and say, Hey, I have this like very locked box and I know I need to open it at some point.

Can you help me get ready to open it?

And the therapist should say yes, because like you're never gonna wake up and be like, I am ready to face my trauma.

So start when you're almost ready, because that's as ready as you're gonna be.

That's perfect.

That's exactly right.

Well, thank you so much, Laurel, for your time and explaining all of this.

I think it's such an incredible modality that is super, super helpful.

Um, and I think a lot more people should explore it as an option.

But thank you again for coming on and sharing all that with us.

I'm always happy to talk about EMDR.

Okay, thanks.

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