Hi, Warriors.

Welcome to One and Three.

I'm your host, Ingrid.

It might sound odd to have a favorite type of episode on a domestic violence podcast, but I do.

I love hearing from survivors who not only share their stories, but also help clear a path for others to find freedom and healing.

My guest today, Mia Hanks, is one of those survivors.

She's also an author who shared her experience with a covert narcissist to help others recognize, heal, and reclaim their power.

Here's Mia.

Hi, Mia.

Thank you so much for joining me on One and Three today.

Hi, I'm glad to be here.

Thanks for having me.

Before we get into our discussion, could you give a little bit of a background on yourself just so listeners can get to know you?

Yeah.

So I'm Mia Hanks, and uh basically my story is that I uh was married to a covert narcissist for 29 years.

Um that started when I was quite young.

Um I was 19 when I met my now ex-husband, and we got married when I was 21, so very young.

And it was just a journey of um a lot of years trying to figure out what was wrong and um, you know, dealing with a lot of gaslighting, manipulation, and finally 25 years or so in uh putting together those pieces and realizing that uh I was dealing with narcissism.

Uh and so I found my way out and um ultimately wrote a book, and here I am today.

Okay, and that book is called Bridemaid?

Yes, Bride Maid and Memoir, yes.

Okay.

And what led you, what made you decide you wanted to actually write the book?

Well, when I was um at the end of my marriage and learning about narcissism and realizing that this is what um was going on, um my my ex-husband is undiagnosed, but um most definitely has narcissistic personality disorder.

I was trying to find everything I could about this personality disorder and about narcissism and narcissistic abuse.

This was a whole new subject for me.

I had never really heard of any such a thing.

Um, and so I was out there trying to read and find everything I could on the subject.

I found a lot of great books, but they were all written by therapists and psychologists for the most part.

Um, very academic.

And I was really seeking a firsthand account.

You know, I really wanted to hear someone else's story of who had lived through something like this.

And I just couldn't find it out there.

So um, yeah, after my divorce was final, I decided I would write a memoir and hope that maybe other people out there it would resonate with them.

That's a good point that you bring up that a lot of the books out there are academic and they definitely have a place um to learn about narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder.

But to hear a personal account makes it so much more relatable.

Yeah, I think so.

And I think um, I mean, I'm hoping that my book can be validating for for someone else out there who, you know, they they think they're they're going through this, but they don't, they think they're alone.

You know, they they don't think anyone else is living this way.

Um sadly, a lot of people who are victims of narcissists, they kind of keep it quiet.

You know, um you worry about people believing you.

And so a lot of victims tend to keep it to themselves and feel like no one else out there is going through this.

Uh so yeah, I hope this book lands in the right hands and those people that, you know, that need to read my story, um, that it can resonate with them and give them some validation.

Validation is super key because, like you said, it is difficult to talk about uh being in these relationships.

It's you carry shame that actually should not be your own shame.

Um, and then you also question your reality and who's going to believe you.

So I love that you have this book, and your hope is to create validation for those who read it.

Uh let's talk about your book a little bit.

Is it uh it's it's your memoir.

So is it um true to your story?

Yes, it is.

Um yeah.

So I basically start at the beginning of my encounter with my ex-husband, and I it's told in a series of short stories um all the way through my divorce.

And uh it's chronological, and and I, you know, I'm trying to show that how how the narcissism, how the narcissistic abuse built over the years, you know, it got more intense as each year went on.

And um you can kind of see through my story.

Narcissism does not get better with age, it it tends to get worse.

And um, I think that I hopefully showed that very clearly that, you know, this is not something that if you um think if you stick around long enough or if you can be a better wife, that it will get better or go away.

Um, it really doesn't.

So I take the reader from first meeting my my now ex-husband all the way through our divorce and kind of show that whole journey.

Yeah, it definitely escalates.

And I think that's part of them losing control.

Once you start to identify what's going on and you begin to pull away, they have to escalate their level of abuse to keep you under their control.

Definitely, yeah.

I mean, that's a good word, escalation.

I mean, that's what I saw in my marriage, um, year after year, and especially at the end, you know, it it got pretty volatile at the end.

Um, my my situation was never physical.

Um, it was all psychological and mental.

But I think it was, you know, probably not too far away from turning physical at the end.

Um, it there was just the escalation that you mentioned.

Um, and I think that was some of me figuring this out and putting these pieces together and saying, wait a minute, maybe it's not me.

Maybe it's you.

Um, and that does create more volatility in the relationship.

Now you you said you read a lot of books.

Do you use some of that information that you learned in the academic books?

And do you put that information into your book?

Yeah, I did.

I I put um a lot of terminology and um a lot of like checklists.

I put some checklists of, you know, how do how do you know that you are being emotionally abused and uh just red flags to look for.

So um that was all very much uh you know things that I had read and studied on, um, but also very not so academic, you know, very relevant.

I mean, you can read down these lists and say, yeah, that that's me.

I can check off every one of these boxes.

And, you know, then then you again it's that validation.

You realize I think there is a problem and it's not all in my head.

I think that's a really important piece, too, of using the academic information you found and making it relatable because narcissism is a term that is so overused, it's a huge buzzword.

And a lot of times it's not used appropriately, I think, in especially in social media.

Yeah, I mean, you know, it's funny.

Um the people that you hear referred to as narcissists, oftentimes those people are not narcissists.

Um, I think the general public wants to call anyone who is pompous, overconfident, and arrogant, we want to call them narcissists.

Uh, and maybe some of them are, but that is not the definition.

Um, there is is so it's so much deeper than that.

And in fact, um, my ex-husband being a covert narcissist, if you met him, you would think he was anything but a narcissist.

In fact, you would think he was completely the opposite.

So that's the danger.

You know, what we what we envision as being narcissistic is is really flawed.

And the ones who are dangerous are the ones that you would never guess uh could be a narcissist.

I agree with that.

And uh, you know, people may have narcissistic traits, but that doesn't mean that they actually have narcissistic personality disorder.

The the overt ones, they're so blatantly narcissistic, you know to keep your distance and you know to keep yourself safe and your guard up.

But the covert ones, like you mentioned, there's they're the sneaky ones.

Can you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah, so the covert, um, you know, it really puts the victim in a in a tough spot because the covert narcissist is out there acting in public like they are so humble and they're so kind, they're they're so empathetic, they're caring, they're generous.

They're not any of these things.

Um, it's literally a mask that they're wearing.

And so it makes it hard for the victim because then everyone on the outside thinks, you know, they they thought I was married to this great guy.

He's so great, you know, everything is so wonderful.

Um, but that's not how he was behind closed doors.

So in my case, um, and and probably other victims have have lived this as well, you know, I sort of perpetuated this lie for him for a lot of years.

I was conditioned very early on to protect him, really, to um protect his image.

And so I was not giving anyone any indication that there was anything wrong behind closed doors.

In fact, to the contrary, I was out there saying, Yeah, he's great.

He's such a great husband.

Um, so yeah, and then you know, you back yourself into a corner.

And these covert narcissists, they are, like you say, they are tricky.

Um, because then I've basically painted myself into a corner saying, you know, singing his praises out in public, and then to have to turn that around and say, well, really, he was abusive.

You know, and then you really worry, well, who's gonna believe me?

So it is um it's it's a very sticky spot to be in.

It is, especially when they begin their smear campaign against you.

Yes, yes.

And a lot of times they'll do that before you even get out of the relationship, before you they they're laying the groundwork already to make you look like the crazy one, so that by the time you're ready to start telling people the truth of what's going on, you've already been discredited amongst a lot of people.

Definitely.

Um, I I would say in my case, I did not give my ex-husband very much lead time when I left.

Um, he did not believe for a second that I would ever leave him.

Um he he was just very confident that that you know he had me stuck and there was no getting out.

So I don't think he was necessarily launching a smear campaign before I left, but um, I do believe now that the minute I left, that's when the smear campaign started.

And it's still ongoing, you know, two years post-divorce, um, he is still out there running this smear campaign.

And it's interesting.

Um, it's something that I never thought he would do.

I guess I was just living in some fantasy world.

I don't know.

Um, but it the smear campaign was the one thing that caught me off guard.

I really didn't expect that.

And I think um I thought at the end of the day people would believe me, uh, and they they didn't.

So that has been probably to date one of my biggest struggles um dealing with the loss of friendships.

Um, I've had to just basically turn people away.

I've had to walk away from these friendships because, you know, I just it's not healthy anymore.

So that has been um knowing that the smear campaign is ongoing is it has been really difficult for me, I have to admit.

Yeah, it's uh I mean, obviously being in the abusive relationship is awful and you're just in pure confusion and survival mode.

But it's difficult once you get out of the relationship too, especially if there's anything that that ties you to that person.

You know, if you're married and you have to get divorced and there's perhaps you own things together that needs to get split, or you have children together, then they can still hold things over you and start the post-separation abuse portion of everything.

Yeah, and it's interesting.

Um, I so my my kids were both um grown when I left.

So we did not have to deal with custody and family court.

But it's interesting.

Um, I have no contact with my ex.

I haven't seen him since the divorce and have not spoken to him.

But he still finds ways to get at me, you know, and and even if they don't have access to you, it's amazing how they will never let that anger go.

I mean, the the idea that you left them, that they were discarded, um, that goes against every rule in their playbook.

And and I think they just, yeah, they they don't ever quite let that go.

They don't because you're property to them.

You belong to them.

And how dare you leave them?

Right.

Um, property.

That is a great, that's a great analogy.

Um, yeah, that's that's all that the victim is to the narcissist, is a piece of property.

You know, it's it's an ownership situation.

Um, it's not a two-way, you know, loving relationship.

It is, I, I, uh, I own you, and um, you know, that's it.

You you're my property.

So um very, very flawed thinking, and it's um extremely toxic.

Horribly toxic.

Uh one thing with that I've learned with talking to individuals and even some very close friends of mine who are post um abusive relationships, and even some who are currently in relationships that I identify as a narcissistic relationship.

One question they always have is, what did I do wrong?

And where is that?

Why did he change?

And in these cases, it's all my all my friends have been female and these individuals have been female and their abusers are all male.

But why did he change or what did I do to make him change?

And I think it's difficult to finally get to that realization of that person you fell in love with actually never existed.

Correct.

I mean, it's it's all a mask, you know, it's that cycle of love bombing.

Um, my ex-husband looked like the greatest catch in the world, you know.

He he was smart, he was um so interested in me, he was over-the-top gifts and attention.

And I mean, you know, everybody around me is like, wow, he is a great guy.

Um that that person never existed.

You know, that was only, he was only showing that side of him to kind of get me hooked.

Um, and then all of that changes.

You know, when once you get married and once that they kind of feel that ownership over you, it slowly starts to, that mask starts to slip.

And and it's kind of a, you know, it's not an overnight thing.

I think it's more of a gradual, it it evolves.

Narcissism, that that abuse, it just evolves.

And um, yeah, it's it's not always overnight.

Right.

And it's very personalized because they react with however you react.

So if you're, you know, if they're verbally abusive or degrading and you stand your ground and you say that's not okay, and I'm not going to tolerate that, then they might might be apologetic for a while.

And then they can be, yeah.

I mean, they they can.

I I I honestly don't think my ex-husband ever apologized once in 29 years of marriage.

I mean, if he did, I certainly can't remember it.

Um, but yeah, if they apologize, it's not most of the time, it's not genuine, you know.

And uh those types of conversations that that you were talking about, um, you know, in in my situation, if I brought up anything that he had done wrong, um, he would find a way to turn it around to where I had done something wrong.

And, you know, it if you try to bring up a simple point, you know, hey, can we talk about this?

Because I didn't like the way, you know, you said this to me or did this, um, that might escalate into a two-hour discussion.

And at the end of that discussion, it's just circular talking, you know.

And at the end of that discussion, it will all somehow come back to me that I was the one that did something wrong.

And really it's exhausting.

And after a time, I just stopped bringing things up in my marriage.

It was like I don't have the energy to deal with the lecture that's going to ensue.

And then it's all going to be my fault anyway.

So I think as victims, we learn to just keep things to ourselves.

Absolutely.

And then when you get into that circular conversation, I forgot.

Oh my gosh, I don't know how I forgot the circular conversation.

But it's almost like you want it to get over with.

So eventually you end up apologizing.

I think initially you apologize because you are fooled that somehow this was all of your own doing and your own fault.

But as time goes on and you start to realize what's happening, you'll just apologize just to get it over with.

Oh, I I did it all the time.

Um, you know, and then you're you're angry with yourself for for caving.

You know, I caved every single time.

But honestly, I mean, it's like being interrogated.

And these lectures could be, I mean, I think the longest one that I ever sat through was over four hours long.

It's exhausting, you know, and and his aim is just to wear me down so that I will then just give in and say, yes, you're right, I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

And yeah, every single time that's how it ended because I was just exhausted and I wanted to leave the room.

Um, so yeah, it was um that that really can do a number um on you psychologically when you basically are just to escape the room and to escape the situation, you take on blame that's not yours and you apologize for something you didn't even do.

And then that screws with you even after you get out.

And you look back and oh my gosh, I've done this so many times.

I've looked back and I've thought, did that really happen?

Or did I exact did I exaggerate what happened?

You gaslight yourself.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah, you really do.

Um, and and if I were to then bring that up to my husband, you know, it would be, well, there's something wrong with you because you are too sensitive.

You know, that shouldn't have bothered you.

And therefore, you know, either you're too sensitive or you're remembering it wrong, or you misinterpreted it.

And then you start to think, well, I don't know, maybe I did.

And then this whole gaslighting yourself thing starts.

So um, it's a lot to untangle uh when you finally get out.

Oh, it definitely is.

And uh mine would always say, I was just joking.

Oh, I mean, some things you're like, how is this a joke?

How was that even a joke?

I don't understand how you can say that was a joke.

But yeah, it you're just your whole reality is so turned upside down.

Uh, did you have a final moment that was your last straw, or did you could you sense that there was going to be an end to this?

Yeah, you know, my physical health was really deteriorating um in this marriage, uh, those last year or two.

So, you know, I was having chronic pain, stomach aches, headaches, anxiety attacks all the time.

And I kind of realized I always wasn't going to survive.

You know, it just was not sustainable.

Our bodies are not meant to live in this constant state of fight or flight.

And that stress will really wreak havoc on your physical health.

So that was that was going on.

And, you know, just his the abuse was escalating to a point that I was really feeling like I was in danger.

And I remember I was doing a lot of research late at night and reading, and I came across a post on Instagram late one night, and it was talking about true intimacy.

And it was saying that true intimacy is not necessarily physical.

It's more about being able to look at your partner and say, I feel safe with you.

And I read that and I thought, I don't feel safe, you know, and and I asked myself, have I ever felt safe in this marriage?

And really my answer was no.

So it was sort of the catalyst to kind of get me thinking, you know, with my health and everything, and I think I need to get out of here.

So it was a it was a quick turnaround.

Once I realized I needed to get out, I mean, in a matter of a few months, I was I was gone.

Yeah, I think that's pretty common, you know, across there are some stories that are a little bit different, but I think there's usually something, a catalyst that gets your mind in motion of this is not sustainable.

And for some, there's an ultimate last straw of, you know, I've been thinking I was going to get out and now I I'm definitely done.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know that I had a real last straw, but um the last few months, like I say, I was really living in fear.

Um, I really feared that things were going to turn physical.

And um, he was just getting more and more volatile.

And it just, you know, it's kind of all the stars kind of aligned for me.

And um, I just knew when it was time to go, I had to go.

And so I'm I'm glad that things kind of fell into place like they did.

Um, I think for a lot of women, that's not necessarily the case.

And so um I was I feel very lucky.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, those of us who are able to get out, and I can't say unscathed because all of us have some sort of scars from these relationships.

But okay, so I'm gonna ask you the question that is it's one of my most annoying questions uh that I hear people ask.

But you know, you were in this marriage for a long time.

How like when did you realize that it was an abusive relationship and why did you stay?

I hate that question.

But uh that's yeah, that's the that's the the million dollar question, right?

Um when did I realize it was abusive?

You know, I don't think I realized until 20 plus years in that it was abusive.

Um and I think that maybe somewhere deep inside I knew it was abusive, but I told myself it wasn't.

It was a coping mechanism um to normalize it, you know, just to just to say this is how everybody lives, this is normal, um, and really just kind of looked past it.

Why did I stay?

I think, you know, it's a complicated answer to a seemingly easy question.

Um I think that I, like I say, I normalized the abuse.

I told myself this is okay.

Um, I had kids, and that really played into my decision making.

Um, in retrospect, I did not make the right decision.

Um, I for a good part of the reason that I stayed was for my kids, you know.

And I think society tells us you keep your family together, you don't um break up the family, you don't want your children to be children of divorce.

And so I was listening to those societal norms, you know, stay for the kids.

Um now I know, being on the other side, that staying for the kids is sometimes the worst thing you can do for the kids.

Uh hindsight is 2020.

But yeah, um that, and then I think there's just this embarrassment factor too.

I mean, it's a lot to have to basically confess and say, this has been a horrible marriage and it's been abusive, and I never told anybody.

And, you know, then people are gonna say, well, why didn't you tell somebody?

Well, I don't know, you know, I mean, and so to have to flip the script and and say, yeah, I've really kind of been living this lie with him, um, it seems like a lot to take on.

It's it's a daunting, it's a daunting idea of of leaving a narcissist.

And then of course, um, another thing that played into that was just fear.

You know, I really was fearful of what he might do if I left.

So it's a, you know, it there's a lot of reasons why why people stay.

Yeah.

And, you know, especially when he's covert, it's difficult to really pinpoint that it's abuse because you you can explain some of the behavior away, or you can think of, well, maybe it's just anger management, it's stress, it's, you know, all these different things that it's not is not this blatant abuse.

And even for those who have blatant abuse, even for those individuals who are going to the ER with bruises and broken bones, they still have a difficult time leaving.

And you pointed out a really good reason, legitimate fear.

Yeah.

Because, you know, that time you leave, that's the most dangerous point of anybody's life.

It really is.

I mean, that's the scariest point is when when you are leaving.

Um, you mentioned about anger management, and that's interesting because at one point in my marriage, um, I decided that was the problem, that he had anger management issues.

And I told him, and um I told him that I guess this was, you know, I didn't really threaten to leave, but he might have been a little bit concerned that maybe the idea was spinning around in my head.

And um, so he said that he would go to therapy um for anger management.

And I thought, wow, you know, I can't believe he's actually, you know, he's actually going to do something, like admit that he might have a problem.

And so he found a therapist and and he went several sessions.

And then um, then the therapist wanted to see us both.

Or I guess he wanted me to go with him.

I don't know.

But anyway, I remember going to therapy and and I thought I was going to hear how, you know, yeah, he has anger management problems, and here's how we're going to deal with them.

Instead, the therapist tells me straight up in his office, he said, you know, I don't think your husband has anger management problems.

And that was a huge blow.

I mean, and what had happened was narcissists loved to go to therapy.

And I didn't know this at the time.

But he just went in there and charmed his way through all these sessions and acted like the most humble, gracious, you know, considerate man that ever lived.

And the therapist was totally bought it.

And so I leave there thinking this whole thing has now backfired on me.

Because now he's saying, I can't believe you made me go to therapy and I don't even have a problem.

See, you're the one with the problem.

So that set me back a few steps.

You know, then you're thinking, well, maybe it's me.

Um, so yeah, that whole anger management thing, that was, I thought I had, I thought I had diagnosed him.

And uh yeah.

Anyway, it was narcissism, actually.

But I wouldn't find that out for several more years.

Well, and therapy is that's it, it frustrates that frustrates me too.

I uh therapy is great.

I love therapy.

I go to therapy.

It can be great.

Yeah, it definitely can be great.

Um if you have the right therapist.

Right.

You have to have the right therapist.

And honestly, I don't know if there's any situation in an abusive relationship that I would ever recommend couples therapy, because when you go to couples therapy, you're already admitting or taking on part ownership of the relationship not working.

You're going into work on the relationship together.

And it's almost this admittance of, okay, the there's something that I'm going to have to work on too.

And I feel like what it does, especially when you get these really talented narcissists or others with personality disorders that are able to manipulate, they're able to take that situation and validate everything that they are doing to you.

That's exactly what happened in my situation.

So we um the last year or so maybe the last six months, um, my husband actually wanted to go to marriage counseling.

And I agreed, um, not knowing that this that is not advisable when you're with a narcissist.

Like you said, the whole thing, um, we probably did 10 sessions with this with this therapist.

Um, fortunately, this lady was really good.

Um, and that's not always the case.

But we did about 10 sessions, and basically these sessions were him sitting on the couch telling her everything I was doing wrong.

And I really didn't talk for for much of the sessions.

Um it all worked out in my favor in the end because after about the 10th session, um, in the middle of the session, the therapist stopped us.

She looked at him and she said, I'm sorry, but I cannot continue to to see you.

And I my mouth was just, you know, I couldn't believe it.

And she said, um, she said, you come in here week after week and you tell me everything that is wrong with your wife.

And she said, you are not able to see things from other people's perspectives, and you cannot put yourself in someone else's shoes.

So she said, as much as I would like to continue to take your money, I can't do it.

And she told us, she said, um, I, you know, basically she told him, don't come back.

And that was a shock.

I was like, she just kicked him out of therapy.

Like I've never heard of a therapist kicking a coin out of therapy.

Um, but yeah, it happened.

And that was some major validation for me.

For sure.

That I that does not happen very often.

And that's thank God you had a good therapist there.

Yeah, yeah.

She um I think the uh one of the last kind of exercises that she had us do in her office was very interesting.

Um, she asked us both, she said, tell me what's on your bucket list.

And I thought, what a strange question for her to ask.

Like, why is she asking that?

But she had motive.

Um, so she asked him first.

And he started, I mean, he went on for 10 minutes.

You know, I want to travel here and I want to do this and this and that.

And he went on and on and on.

And finally, it was my turn.

And she looked at me and she said, Tell me what's on your bucket list.

And I could not think of one single thing.

Not one single thing.

And she started coaching me and she says, Well, I mean, is is there somewhere you want to travel?

Like, and I said, I I don't know.

I don't think so.

And she said, Well, you know, do you have any goals?

Like, what are your goals?

And I said, I I I don't know.

And um, I think the reason that she did that exercise was to illustrate that he had basically stolen my entire identity.

You know, I didn't know who I was, I didn't know what I wanted.

Um, I was just, you know, I I had just given my whole self to him.

And um I think it was the next session that she actually kicked him out of therapy.

So um, yeah, I guess it was pretty telling.

At the time it seemed like a strange question, but yeah.

Wow, that's because they're parasites.

They suck everything out of you until you're just a shell of what you used to be.

Yes, definitely they do.

Um you know, you don't know yourself coming out of that type of marriage.

You really have to say, I don't even I don't know who I am.

Who, what do I want?

What are my goals?

What do I want to do with my life?

Um, because I really didn't know.

Yeah, and it's you can't even say that you have to re-identify or, you know, create a new personality because you don't even know who you are anymore.

It's like you actually have to identify, not re-identify.

You have to recall who you are.

And I mean, you come out a different person, a different version of yourself, you know, eventually after you put the work in.

But it's it's hard to remember who you were going into it, even if it's a short relationship.

I think they're just so skillful at destroying who you are that it's hard to even remember who you who you're supposed to be.

Yeah, it definitely it is.

Um, and like I say, I got into this um relationship at age 19.

So it was, yeah, I had to really stop and think like, what do I want to be when I grow up?

I mean, you know, I I don't know.

I don't, I just you come out with so many questions.

Um, you really have to find yourself again.

Yeah, especially at 19.

I mean, at 19, you don't know who you are.

So you haven't even fully figured that out before he just wiped everything else out.

Yes, completely.

I wanted to bring up, you mentioned, you know, what society says as far as norms and marriages.

I feel like when you are a victim of an abusive relationship, society, everything you do is wrong, according to society, no matter what you do.

Because if you're a parent, uh, you're wrong for staying in that relationship and exposing your children to an abusive relationship.

But if you leave with your children, then you're wrong because you're splitting up the family.

Yeah, you can't win, you know.

No.

And yeah, you you you split up the family, you break up the family, you and that was one thing that my ex-husband used um to guilt me after I left, you know.

I can't believe you're breaking up the family.

And I did.

I felt bad, you know, not bad enough to go back, fortunately.

Um, but yeah, it it is really you can't win.

You're either you're wrong for staying and you're wrong for leaving.

Yeah.

You tried too hard, you didn't try hard enough.

It's it and it's hard.

And especially if you've been gaslight those many years, and you like you mentioned earlier, you gaslight yourself.

So then you're questioning if you're doing the right thing, even years later.

Yeah, you really, um, you really do.

And because it is a big decision, you know.

Um, and there are a lot of things to, I mean, I was concerned about how it would affect my kids, obviously.

Um, and and it's so there's a lot to unpack there.

Um, you've got to think about just where where do I start?

What do I do?

Um, because I really didn't know, you know, I had never really worked.

And um it was just it was a bit overwhelming.

But um in the end, it, you know, like I say, it all kind of came together for me.

And and I feel very fortunate.

Speaking of your kids, did they ever talk to you about any of this?

Since they're gr older?

Yeah, yeah.

So that's the nice thing.

Um, because they they are older, um, you know, they're they were over 18 when I when I divorced, so we didn't have family court and all of that.

And I felt like because they're both adults, um, I felt like I could talk to them about why I left, you know.

Um, and that we had nice adult conversations about it.

And we've talked extensively, you know, um, both of them were very much in support of me leaving.

Um so I was I was lucky that that I had their support behind me.

They uh both think that I should have left years ago.

But, you know, again, hindsight is 2020.

So we have had um good discussions around it.

And you know, they both still have a relationship with their father.

He he is their father after all.

And sometimes I have to remind myself that can be hard.

Um, but they do.

They they do have a relationship with him and as they should, as they should.

But they also realize that that he is, you know, not neurotypical.

And so um I think that's important.

So what steps did you first of all, when you left, how did you leave?

So I left slowly.

I didn't want him to know what I was doing.

So what I did was um I started staying at my parents' house and making excuses for why I needed to stay over there.

And uh after about two weeks, you know, he started saying, What are you doing?

Like, are you coming back?

What are you doing?

And finally I said to him, I I just need to take some time for myself.

I'm not doing well and and I just need a break.

And that was kind of how I got away.

Um and then, you know, I because I because I couldn't, I didn't have the courage to just say to him, I'm leaving.

So I kept up this for almost a year.

And you know, we were separated for a year before I could file for divorce.

I just didn't have the courage to do it.

Um, but yeah, it was a gradual, kind of a gradual leaving process.

I knew I wasn't coming back.

He didn't know that.

Um, I was petrified to tell him that, you know, I wasn't coming back and that I wanted a divorce.

So I felt like leaving slowly kind of softened the blow and made the environment a little bit safer for me.

And that's why I did it that way.

I didn't go no contact, like you know, they will tell you to do when you're dealing with a narcissist.

To me, that felt dangerous.

So I sort of went low contact and just sort of faded out, you know, faded out the conversation because for me that felt like what I needed to do to, you know, be safe.

That is such a key thing for, you know, anybody listening is that you can have all these professionals telling you the way to do it.

You can have other survivors telling you the way they did it or what their recommendations are.

But it's each victim, each survivor, they know their abuser like nobody else.

And you know what is the safe thing to do, you know what is a dangerous thing to do.

And you know, for all the people who say, Why did you say that like we were talking about before, legitimate fear is is one of the reasons.

And people, you you know your abuser.

You know, if you just abruptly leave, he's going to come for you and he's going to harm you, if not kill you.

Yeah.

And if you know that, then don't do it that way.

Or, you know, or you escape in the middle of the night, never to be heard or seen from again.

You know, whatever your safe exit plan is that feels most comfortable, because I don't think any of it's going to feel 100% comfortable.

Right.

But yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and and I think another real key point there with the exit plan is um you can't let your abuser know that you have an exit plan.

Um, because that will really, I mean, that won't end well.

Um, and the other thing is like you say, you know your abuser better than people on the outside do.

And so it's easy for people on the outside to say, oh, you know, he would never hurt you.

You don't have to worry about that.

Well, you know, okay, maybe he probably wouldn't hurt me, but I can't say definitively that he wouldn't.

So why take the chance?

You know, I mean, maybe I'm being overly overly cautious here, but if there's the tiniest chance um of being hurt in this, I mean, you know, if there's the tiniest chance of losing your life.

Why would you take that chance?

So you really do have to listen to your own intuition.

Yeah.

And overly cautious is way better than the alternative of, you know, being too brazen and losing your life because you didn't want to be overly cautious.

Right.

Yeah, I totally agree with that.

Only you know how that person is apt to react.

And, you know, like I say, if there's this tiniest chance that it could um end with violence, then you know, you need to factor that in.

Right.

And and for those people who say he would never do that or he's never shown displayed any signs of aggression or violence, well, he also has never been faced with his property leaving him.

Right.

And narcissists can have, I mean, if if things get when they start to spiral out of control, that's when they get dangerous.

When when they start to lose control and start into this downward spiral, they can have something called a psychic break.

And, you know, it and it happens.

And that's what you don't know about.

Like, could this escalate into a psychic break?

If so, it could get dangerous.

Uh, and that is something to keep in mind.

I mean, you narcissists don't accept the word no.

So when you leave, even though they've never been physical in the past, uh that does not mean that they won't start.

Right.

And much like how we each have our, you know, last straw or our gut feelings, they also have what in their mind what is I've lost everything.

And if they get to that point where they feel like they truly have lost everything, then it's, you know, no holds barred.

Like full systems go, I need to go in massive control, you know, regaining control mode.

And who knows what that's going to be.

You can have somebody who never laid a hand on somebody go all the way.

Yeah, absolutely.

So um, really, you know, that's something to think about when you are formulating an exit plan.

Yeah.

And then so what happens after you leave?

Because especially you, you were married for over 20 years.

You were 19 when you got married, and you know, didn't have a a a career.

So what do you do?

How do you rebuild your life?

Slowly.

Um, you know, it has taken time to just kind of figure out what what I want to do.

Um, and for me, I mean, it's it's a lot of it is just about healing and really taking things one day at a time.

You know, I'm I'm not too far out of this um marriage.

I've I've been divorced two years now.

And it's really been, these last two years have been it's a lot of growth.

It's been really good.

But, you know, you have to learn how to, in my case, you know, being able to wake up in the morning and say, I can make all my decisions.

I can decide how I want to spend my day.

It's going from zero freedom to complete freedom.

So it's a lot, you know, it's um, it's overwhelming and it's scary, but it's also very exciting at the same time.

So uh these last couple of years have just been a lot about me figuring out who I am and what I want to do and where I want to live and just being able to make like these adult decisions that I've never been able to make before.

Um it's been it's been fun.

I I say it's it's a bit overwhelming, but definitely um it's it's been a good, it's been a good two years.

It's so liberating, right?

You're using free.

Um and I think it's important to point out too, with you know, each victim takes however long to get out of a relationship.

If they go back however many times, that's you know, that's an individual thing.

And it's that's the same thing with post-abusive relationship healing.

You know, that time, there's no set time.

There shouldn't, there's not a you should feel totally fine in a year or two years or five years or 10 years or whatever.

That's all very individualized as well.

Yeah, and I think, you know, for a lot of a lot of victims of narcissistic abuse, I mean, you may never fully heal from it.

It it changes you.

And it has shown, um, studies have shown that narcissistic abuse can actually change your brain, you know.

Um, so you may never fully heal.

I mean, these are some permanent scars, but we learn to adapt and move on and find, you know, find a new life for ourselves.

So um it's in the end, it's you know, even though those scars are still there, it's okay.

Um, it really is.

Like you you will be able to, you can make it, you can do it.

When you wrote your book, did anything come up?

Was it difficult?

Did you have to take breaks at all?

Um, I did.

The the way that my book kind of came about was uh I was in therapy after after I left, and um I was dealing with a lot of guilt because my ex was saying, you know, I can't believe you broke the family up.

I can't believe you know you've ruined our lives.

And and I I was feeling so guilty and thinking, would it be easier just to go back?

You know, I don't want to go back, but would it just make it easy on everybody else?

And I was talking to my therapist about this, and she told me, she said, I want you to go home and I want you to take out a pad of paper and a pen, and I want you to write down every traumatic event that you can remember in the last 29 years.

And then when you start feeling guilty, I want you to go back, take that sheet of paper out and read it.

And so I did, I did that.

And um ultimately when I decided to write this book, that's what I did.

I took that piece of paper back out and I just started telling the stories of of each one of these things.

And um, yeah, so that's that's kind of how it came, how it came about.

And it it was really therapeutic.

Um, I think writing stuff down, it's sort of a release.

You feel like, you know, you can let go of that now.

And so I wasn't, um, I was pleasantly surprised to see how cathartic it would be to write.

Um, so yeah, it was it was ended up being a good thing for me.

Yeah, I think that's um I had my I had a therapist that actually did something very similar, had me, but didn't have me physically write down my story, had me imagine writing down my story in a scroll because I was I came in the first session and I was like, I'm leaving.

And then the next one I was like, I'm pretty sure I'm going to leave, but I'm not quite, you know, there.

And then she had me do that and then imagine myself reading my story.

And I kept saying, I feel so sorry.

I was completely disassociated.

You know, I was I feel so sorry for that woman and I'm so angry for that woman.

And then it took a couple times of rereading that in my mind to admit or realize that's me.

It's not this story I just read.

So yeah, I think that um writing, you know, some people have written their stuff out and then they burned it.

Yeah.

You know, they never want to tell anyone.

But there is something cathartic, like you said.

Yeah, I understand now why people would do that.

Um, it's a it's a release.

You feel like once you've documented it, now you can let it go.

Yeah.

Um what was I gonna say?

Oh, uh another another thing that keeps popping up with victims or survivors who have either chosen to tell their story on a podcast or have written a book is their concern for others that if they don't know the f their full story of now my loved ones, my friends, family, they're going to see my story in all of its glory.

And they're, you know, the the authors or the victim survivor, whatever you want to uh choose to be called, um, is their concern of how other people are going to be able to handle hearing that story.

Did that ever cross your mind at all?

It did.

In fact, um I, you know, I had trouble writing when I when I first started because of that.

I, you know, I keep thinking about all of these people that I know that are going to read this book.

And I'm thinking, I I don't think I want to tell that.

You know, I don't, that's embarrassing.

Um, what I ultimately had to do was I had to just kind of block all those people out and pretend like I'm writing to other victims out there that are stuck in these marriages, you know, they can't find a way out.

And I just had to forget that all these other people that I knew would be reading this book.

Um, because that is hard.

Yeah, for sure.

I mean, it's it's there's there's something a little bit embarrassing about it, but at the same time, you know, it's freeing.

It's like, okay, here's my story and take it or leave it.

And so yeah, it's but it's um it's hard to put yourself out there.

It is, it's so exposing.

It's like you're standing out in the middle of you know, a busy city and like completely exposed.

Yes, yes.

It's um it's hard.

It is hard.

But then when you again turn your shift to turn your um thinking over to other victims out there that are, you know, that are suffering, um, and thinking, well, if this can help them in any way, uh, it's worth it.

What kind of feedback did you get from people?

Um so a lot of my family doesn't know about my book, honestly.

Um, but those that have read it, uh, family and friends that have read it, uh, I mean, I've gotten really good feedback.

Um, and I, you know, I feel good about it.

I I didn't anticipate the feedback being as good as it has been, uh, because you know, I just didn't feel that confident, honestly.

But uh it's been good.

And I I know some therapists um are using it with uh some some of their clients, and that makes me feel really good.

So yeah, the feedback has been very positive.

Do you have any plans for another book?

Um I don't currently, but I certainly wouldn't be opposed to it.

Um I I thought the the process was a very positive one, and uh I would certainly entertain the thought of doing it again.

I just don't know what I would write about.

Yeah.

You don't have definitely maybe the the aftermath.

Um yeah, I've kind of thought about it.

Um yeah, we have some ideas swirling around in my head, but um like I say, I'm still kind of on this this um plan of taking things one day at a time.

So I don't really have any definitive plans um at all.

And so who knows?

Okay.

Well, if anyone wants to get your book or if they want to keep up with any information that you may have, uh how would they get in touch with you or find the book?

I have a website, it's meajhanks.com, and uh there's a blog on there, there's um links to lots of podcasts, and there's a link to purchase my book on Amazon.

Um, it's available in um paperback and ebook.

So you can get it on Amazon and I think pretty much online anywhere books are sold.

Um so yeah, and then I'm also active on TikTok.

My handle is at npd and me.

Oh, that's a good handle.

Yeah.

I like that.

Okay.

Um, and so before we close, do you have any lasting um well actually first before we do that, do you have did we miss anything that you wanted to talk about?

Um I don't think so.

I think we covered, we covered the important stuff.

Okay.

And so do you have any lasting words of encouragement or wisdom you would like to leave with listeners?

Yeah, I think I would just say, you know, if you are in a relationship that is toxic, that is abusive, um don't don't waste time thinking that it's gonna get better, you know, and thinking that if if you can better yourself, that that the relationship will fix itself.

Um if you're with a narcissist, it's not going to get better.

And I hate to sound dim and gloom, but um you really need to find your way out of that.

And and it's never too late to leave.

Whether you've been married for five years or 30 years, um, there is a path out always.

And and you can definitely find a better life on the other side of abuse.

Perfect.

Thank you so much, Mia, for your time and joining me today.

Thank you.

And thank you for your book.

I'm I'm looking forward to reading it.

Right if I can stay awake.

And not that it's I mean, I haven't started it.

It's not like it's putting me to sleep, it's just I'm tired all the time.

I understand that completely.

Okay.

Well, thank you again.

Thank you.

Thank you again, Mia, for joining me today, and thank you, Warriors, for listening.

I've included the links Mia was referring to as well as her one in three profile in the show notes.

I will be back next week with another episode for you.

Until then, stay strong.

And wherever you are in your journey, always remember you are not alone.

Find more information, register as a guest, or leave a review by going to the website onein3podcast.com.

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Music written and performed by Tim Crow.