[SPEAKER_02]: Hey everyone, it's Reannon.

[SPEAKER_02]: On this special episode of Five to Four, I interview two lawyers who represent McClot Cordier, a Palestinian woman currently in ICE detention.

[SPEAKER_02]: McClot was one of many who showed up to protest genocide outside Columbia University in the spring of 2024.

[SPEAKER_02]: After that, she was surveilled by ICE and put in detention earlier this year.

[SPEAKER_02]: Despite a judge ordering twice that she be released, LeClaught remains in detention eight months later.

[SPEAKER_02]: Her attorneys talked to me about how the government has used procedural tricks to keep LeClaught detained, how LeClaught's targeting connects to the Trump regime's repression of descent, and what's at stake for all of us in LeClaught's case.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is five to four, a podcast about how much ice sucks.

[SPEAKER_02]: We are very, very honored, so appreciative to have a little bit of time today, with some of Makakura Diaz lawyers.

[SPEAKER_02]: We are honored to welcome ML Tabate and Sedef Hassan, 254, welcome ML and Sedef.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks so much for having us.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's truly an honor to talk about our favorite person today.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm an is a lawyer with the Clear Project.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sedeff is a lawyer with Muslim advocates.

[SPEAKER_02]: And they represent Lakal Kuradiya alongside the Texas Civil Rights Project and the Boston University School of Law, Immigrants Rights Clinic, as well as the private law firm Waters, Kraus, Paul, and Seagull.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, ML and Sadaf are joining us today to talk about their clients, the last of the Columbia protesters to still be held in ice custody.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, our listeners know a little bit about, for example, like Mahmoud Khalil, because we've talked about Mahmoud.

[SPEAKER_02]: on five four before, you know, the Columbia University graduate student, a legal permanent resident who was detained by ICE for over a hundred days, missed the birth of his child.

[SPEAKER_02]: But Mahmoud Khalil has been released.

[SPEAKER_02]: And at the same time, Lakal Kuradiya, who was arrested just days after Mahmoud, has not been released.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's still in ICE detention.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I want to talk to you guys about LeClaught and so maybe we can start.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to start by reading the first paragraph from a piece about LeClaught that dropped a couple of weeks ago in the New Yorker just to set the stage for us.

[SPEAKER_02]: On a Monday afternoon in late September, a group of students and professors from Columbia University stood outside the campus gates, holding large printed photos of people whom the U.S.

government is seeking to deport.

[SPEAKER_02]: After two tumultuous years of protests, multiple waves of arrests, and ultimately a $221 million settlement with the Trump administration, the university has returned to something resembling normality.

[SPEAKER_02]: but such gatherings remain commonplace, often with members of the faculty, holding photos of Mahmoud Khalil and Mahzind Mahdawi, whose highly publicized cases made them symbols of the government's crackdown on student protesters.

[SPEAKER_02]: That day, someone held the photo of a woman largely unknown to the public, La Kauradilla, who was not a Columbia student, but a, quote, simple Palestinian girl, as she describes herself, who's been in ice detention in Texas for the past eight months.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I wanted to turn it over to you all.

[SPEAKER_02]: Can you just help us understand, tell us a little bit, who is Leicott Cordilla?

[SPEAKER_02]: Why is she an immigration detention?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and just before starting, just want to uplift, it's like immense gratitude and appreciation for having us here today to talk about our client, Leicott Cordilla.

[SPEAKER_01]: We've had the pleasure and privilege of getting to know Leicott over the course of our representation during the past eight months in which she's been [SPEAKER_01]: Lekha is a young 32-year-old Palestinian Muslim woman from Patterson, New Jersey.

[SPEAKER_01]: She grew up in the West Bank but spent the better part of the last nine years living in New Jersey and has really deep roots there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Lekha is a daughter, she's a sister, she's a best friend, she's a coworker and a really beloved member of her community.

[SPEAKER_01]: Lekha is fiercely and unapologetically Palestinian.

[SPEAKER_01]: She has an immense amount of pride for her identity and culture and background.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this really comes out in any and every conversation that you'll have with Lekha.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's also a devoted Muslim who's deeply connected to her faith.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's the granddaughter of neckbes survivors and she's unfortunately lost nearly 200 members of her family in Reza.

[SPEAKER_01]: Leca has a really warm soul, a strong demeanor.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's like a natural born leader.

[SPEAKER_01]: She previously worked as a waitress and a restaurant and in a clothing shop prior to being confined by ice.

[SPEAKER_01]: Leca wouldn't admit this, but she's a really wonderful writer and poet.

[SPEAKER_01]: She speaks and writes so eloquently.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's brought me to tears on several different occasions just with her words.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she's written actually several moving statements and letters well confined listeners can actually read some of them on the Instagram page that is run by her loved ones at Free Leicocordia.

[SPEAKER_02]: We'll link that in the show notes for everybody.

[SPEAKER_01]: Perfect.

[SPEAKER_01]: Perfect.

[SPEAKER_01]: Leicoc is also really naturally artistic and creative.

[SPEAKER_01]: She studied fashion design in Ramallah.

[SPEAKER_01]: She enjoys tactile art, such as painting and making pottery, really anything that requires using her hands.

[SPEAKER_01]: She loves just making things with her hands.

[SPEAKER_01]: And actually, before her confinement, she was learning to play the old in her spare time.

[SPEAKER_01]: She has really good taste in music.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she's actually introduced me to new artists.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've never even heard of.

[SPEAKER_01]: And lastly, I think I would just add like most Palestinians is really family-oriented.

[SPEAKER_01]: She keeps close ties with her family, both here in New Jersey and elsewhere in the U.S., but also abroad in Palestine.

[SPEAKER_01]: She speaks often and fondly of her mother, her brother, her sister, her cousins, her extended family members.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, I think I would just end on that note and sort of uplift how family oriented she is.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, thanks so much, Ahmed.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I just feel like I'm so beautifully described like ah, beyond, you know, what we see like in the headlines and I think it's really important for listeners to get like this clear and really rich glimpse into her humanity, which I, you know, I really feel like the government has tried to deny it, and try to erase by designing this system of what we've been seeing would not only her, but with others of [SPEAKER_03]: into, you know, the black boxes of ice attention.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so, yeah, I feel like just humanizing look-off is really important.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's why we're here today, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: It's just to make sure, you know, what the government has been trying to do to make her story disappear, that it doesn't.

[SPEAKER_03]: And by shipping look-off, thousands of miles away from New Jersey to Texas, you know, as Amelette said, she comes from a really vibrant, beautiful, [SPEAKER_03]: Palestinian community, and Patterson, and she's been confined by ICE for the last eight months.

[SPEAKER_03]: I slated from her family, her legal team, her community.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so I just wanted to uplift that this is all by design of the government to, you know, try to erase these stories.

[SPEAKER_03]: And just on a personal level, like she's literally the most hilarious sarcastic down to earth, deeply spiritual, you know, person I've met, Amal and I have learned so much [SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, so I'm really grateful that we're here today to tell her story.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So what is different about Leklaut's story if anything?

[SPEAKER_02]: She's arrested by ICE just days after Mahmoud Khalid is arrested and detained.

[SPEAKER_02]: She has been in ICE detention for that long.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, she's first in New Jersey where she lives.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then all of this out and within hours of her detention, she is shipped to an ice detention facility in North Texas called Prairie Land.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, she's never been to Texas.

[SPEAKER_02]: In some of the stuff that I've read, like officers themselves, like ice officers, are confused themselves.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like there's just cruelty and chaos at every point of this process.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're confused themselves about like what the case is about who she is and where she's going.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's initially told that she's going to be in upstate New York, something like this, by officers who thought that, then all of a sudden, she's in Texas and then, you know, there is just the fact of her ongoing detention when other sort of, it seems like similarly situated immigrant protesters have been released from that detention.

[SPEAKER_02]: So why is she an immigration detention like what is the government saying?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's a great question.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I think LaGa's story is interval and with all the stories you just said of Mahmoud Khalil, Ramasa, Azhtar, Khmasin, Madawi, and other slept up in the ice abductions that started in March during Ramadan.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think what connects all their stories together is the Trump administration's MacArthur era weaponization of immigration laws to squash organizing and free speech in support of Palestinian liberation.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think they're just to uplift, you know, why is she confined by ice?

[SPEAKER_03]: I think there's kind of two main reasons why and I think one of them which relates to remittances as she's sent to family abroad slightly and kind of uniquely situates her story a little bit differently, but I do think [SPEAKER_03]: all their stories are just, yeah, interconnected in terms of what the government agenda is at the moment.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think those two things are one, she attended a protest outside the Gates of Columbia University, like during the 2024 in-campments.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so it was really like a year later when the current administration began its crackdown on the Palestine Solary Movement, that, like I was put on ISIS radar.

[SPEAKER_03]: And like so many of us, you know, she went to the streets to call and then to the genocide in Vazza and to advocate for their freedom and liberation of all Palestinians.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, she's actually not a Columbia University student, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: She was attending a protest like you said, actually outside the gates of of the university.

[SPEAKER_03]: With hundreds and hundreds of other people, and I think the other piece that is I think unique too, like our story is, you know, once the look I was put on ice is radar because of that [SPEAKER_03]: The government essentially won on a fishing expedition to find any excuse to paint her as a so so-called danger to the community And they've really outrageously latched on to these money-gram and western union reminces.

[SPEAKER_03]: She sent quite literally just to provide humanitarian aid to family members abroad and Huzda and elsewhere in the Middle East who are trying to survive genocide forceful displacement and [SPEAKER_03]: ongoing occupation.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so, whatever money like Leuka could send, she did to her family members in Razza.

[SPEAKER_03]: And you know, what was the money?

[SPEAKER_03]: It was just to pay for medical expenses, rebuilding after Israeli military strikes and Razza to also just buy gifts for her nieces.

[SPEAKER_03]: All these like very normal things that immigrants do to send money abroad.

[SPEAKER_03]: And you know, the government has basically tried as it does and it's normal playbook to paint [SPEAKER_03]: you know, money that predominantly Muslim community sent with suspicion and so called danger.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and just just a quickly add, you know, I really wouldn't distinguish lacquat from the others who were swept up by ice in March, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: We know in March, the Trump administration initiated a wave of repression.

[SPEAKER_01]: It started with Mahmoud Khalil's confinement and it ended with lacquats, all with the intention of silencing the movement of pulsing liberation, like Sadaf just mentioned.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the cut's abduction was part of this way.

[SPEAKER_01]: So while she remains the only one still confined and Sada Fanai will talk about the reasons why and how legally the government has been using procedural loopholes and gamesmanship to keep her confined, while she is the only one who remains confined, I really wouldn't otherwise distinguish her from Mahmoud Khalil and Mahismadali or Ramesa Osterq.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, she's part of this wave of repression that the government initiated to scare people into silence, to distract us from our own government's complicity and involvement in the genocide in the Hasseh.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, maybe not shockingly, actually this wave produced the opposite result, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like we're seeing how it galvanized millions to speak out for Palestine with greater conviction than ever before.

[SPEAKER_01]: But with, yeah, with LeCaut, unfortunately, it's just, it's like, it's un-equivocally clear that the government is doing everything and it's power to keep our confined.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're exerting every effort and relying on gamesmanship so that she is the only one who remains still in confinement.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I want to talk about like some of those legal maneuvers a little bit, um, just to sort of like, you know, pull back the curtain like the these are the tricks, honestly, and the chaos and the fear tactics and this is like the machine of the repression at work, right, and so I want to get into some of that, but before I do, I just wanted to talk about like, [SPEAKER_02]: How all of this goes back to what you were talking about Emma, which is like our own government's complicity in genocide.

[SPEAKER_02]: Look at herself is like personally touched by the genocide.

[SPEAKER_02]: She has lost almost 200 members of her family in the genocide.

[SPEAKER_02]: You talked about the money that she sends back to her family.

[SPEAKER_02]: in the West Bank, you know, wherever they are and how that money has gone to support her family in rebuilding.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's rebuilding from prior Israeli bombardment on Haze.

[SPEAKER_02]: Her aunt last her home, her home was destroyed and in Israeli bombing of Haze in 2021.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is before 2023.

[SPEAKER_02]: And in total, you know, I read it's something like this isn't huge sums of money, you know, something like the equivalent of a few thousand US dollars, that in total, that LeCla has sent to her, to her family abroad.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I just want to highlight exactly what y'all are saying about like how personal this is and how this attack is targeted at just human beings acting like human beings do.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so let's talk a little bit about these legal tricks and the maneuvers, the gamesmanship, as you said.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I know that LeClaught has sort of, let's say like two simultaneous or parallel cases.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's a case in immigration court.

[SPEAKER_02]: LeClaught has a claim for asylum.

[SPEAKER_02]: in immigration court, but there's also this federal case, a case in federal court that my understanding and you guys can explain this more is about the constitutionality of her detention.

[SPEAKER_02]: Is it lawful that she was picked up and that the government is trying to deport her in the first place?

[SPEAKER_02]: on that federal case in federal district court, a federal judge recommended that McClot be be released from detention, while her case moves forward goes through, goes through the system, and the government came back with another argument, and obviously kept her in detention.

[SPEAKER_02]: Can you, yeah, talk about these tricks.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think you know, you correctly identified the two parallel tracks in the legal case in which we are seeking her immediate release from ICE custody.

[SPEAKER_01]: So after Leicott was abducted, she was flown across multiple state lines to Texas, a forum that is conveniently favorable to the government in both federal and immigration court.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the government has been sending people like Lecott to jurisdictions like Texas or Louisiana because they think they have the best chances of winning there.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's the same reason why the Trump administration is trying to keep cases out of the federal courts and in the immigration system, where the immigration judge has served at the pleasure of the executive.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you know, the two parallel tracks are that there's the immigration case like you identified, which takes place before an immigration judge, in which she's actually been ordered, releaseable on bond, not once, but twice, and we'll explain a little bit more why that didn't stick due to ISIS games and court.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's where we filed the habeas petition, and I think important to note that there's a strong interplay between both her immigration and federal habeas cases.

[SPEAKER_02]: Federal habeas being like a case where you bring constitutional challenges to your detention, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly right.

[SPEAKER_01]: So in April, shortly after her arrest and confinement, an immigration judge first held at a hearing that look all could be released on bond.

[SPEAKER_01]: which are family paid within less than 24 hours.

[SPEAKER_01]: Ice prevented her release by invoking a rarely used provision called the automatic stay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Basically, like an automatic pause to her release.

[SPEAKER_01]: While they then would appeal the bond order to the board of immigration appeals, the sort of like body that oversees appeals.

[SPEAKER_01]: We then filed a habeas petition and federal court.

[SPEAKER_01]: challenging the constitutionality of her confinement and challenging the Trump administration's targeting of Le Caught, on the basis that it plainly violates first amendment protections, that she has as a person in this country, citizen or not.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is clear that she was being punished and is being punished for her speech and advocacy for the Palestinian people, and that's why we brought that claim.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so in the federal case, after a hearing and June this year, a Magistrate judge recommended to the federal court that she'd be immediately released.

[SPEAKER_01]: Calling ISIS use of the automatic stay that I mentioned earlier, likely unconstitutional.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so shortly after this decision came out, the government, again, shifted goal posts and asked the board of immigration appeals to change the automatic stay to something called a discretionary one.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the BIA agreed to this in less than a day without giving a look off the opportunity to respond.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the government was using these procedural loop holes to keep her confined despite the orders and recommendations that she'd be released.

[SPEAKER_01]: So now the district judge handed the case back to the magistrate judge and federal court to issue an updated recommendation, factoring these changes and developments, and we're on pins and needles as we await that new recommendation.

[SPEAKER_02]: Is that expected like any time soon or it's just like up to them?

[SPEAKER_02]: Is there any timeline?

[SPEAKER_01]: There is no timeline.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is it is totally up to them.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, at the same time, like while the baton is with the Magistrate Judge to release a new report and recommendation, Lakha again was ordered releaseable on bond by the immigration judge for a second time this past August.

[SPEAKER_01]: The judge found that the government presented insufficient evidence to keep her confined.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I played the same game by blocking the decision using that automatic stay.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, like emergency discretionary state to keep her confined.

[SPEAKER_01]: still confined because of their procedural gamesmanship, which the habeas case could really put an end to.

[SPEAKER_03]: I sort of chime in about the automatic stay.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's basically the government just simply checks a box on a form to halt the immigration judges' release order.

[SPEAKER_03]: They don't make any arguments, they don't explain anything.

[SPEAKER_03]: And they're basically, you know, usually, like there should be like an individual finding about someone's danger or flight risk.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so the government just has like broad [SPEAKER_03]: check a box on this form and block her release and they've done this, like Emily said, not once, but twice.

[SPEAKER_03]: Every time the immigration judge has ordered, look out, releaseable on bond, they've invoked this automatic pause on the immigration judge's order to release her.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then they've also combined that with requesting, as Emily said, [SPEAKER_03]: something called the discretionary stay, which is just to, you know, essentially put together, like with the automatic stay and the discretionary stay, it's serving as indefinite confinement, that's arbitrary, and at a retaliatory at worst.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it explains why she's still confined eight months later, despite an immigration judge finding her [SPEAKER_03]: releaseable on bond twice.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so the kind of procedural loopholes and games that you're that the, you know, eyes has undertaken.

[SPEAKER_03]: We've seen like I'm all said, it's slowing down and the relief that we're seeking in federal court.

[SPEAKER_03]: We're trying to challenge the unconstitutionality of her confinement.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know, five four listeners just a couple episodes ago talked about the difference between immigration law procedures and immigration court, the rights that somebody has in immigration court, the differences there from the, you know, the rights that a criminal defendant has in criminal court, the constitutional protections.

[SPEAKER_02]: that you have, which, yes, of course, in criminal court in this country, it's not like it's just unfair and those constitutional rights are actually respected.

[SPEAKER_02]: But in immigration court, just honestly the lawlessness, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: The way it's completely imbued the process step by step with government discretion.

[SPEAKER_02]: You don't get due process.

[SPEAKER_02]: You don't get a hearing when the government accuses you of something, you know, accuses you of being a flight risk.

[SPEAKER_02]: The government is checking a box.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's no hearing.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's no evidence presented that you're a flight risk, you know, all of this stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then stacking their discretion on top of discretion.

[SPEAKER_02]: The automatic stay the discretionary stay right like they have all of these procedural tools essentially to do whatever they want, right.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then immigration judges to just green light everything rubber stamp everything.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's the process.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to make one more one more note before we go to the next question, which is we're talking about ice.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that is the government institution that is doing this.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that a lot of listeners, a lot of people, the public at large, when you hear ice, you of course think about ice officers, right, that these are officers, federal agents, you know, who are going out on the street.

[SPEAKER_02]: kidnapping people, putting them in ice detention, and then, you know, those are, you know, it's ice, you know, officers too, who are, you know, jailers at these ice detention facilities, this kind of thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: But when we're talking about in court, I just want to make the point that ice has lawyers too.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're talking about lawyers making these arguments, and these are ice attorneys.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's not just kind of like, [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just want to make that point to just sort of illuminate like who ice is and how this how this system works is that it's not just sort of like police officers.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not just law enforcement out on the street doing this violence.

[SPEAKER_02]: It is turned around in this institution and by the government and lawyers doing it to in court lawyers who represent ice.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think you're making really, really great.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so glad you're uplifting this.

[SPEAKER_03]: Just, you know, immigration court has a reputation of being called a kangaroo court, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Immigration court, sometimes tends to be biased on fair predetermined, right, to just deny cases, even when folks have like really valid.

[SPEAKER_03]: asylum claims they've provided so much evidence to like prove up their claims rather than you know providing what you just said like an actual fear hearing for really high stakes matters right these are folks who are like in terms of court trying to make sure they don't get deported [SPEAKER_03]: Or that they are able to get released from, you know, a legal ice confinement.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so, yeah, I just wanted to uplift what you just said just in terms of how it is very different how immigration court functions as, you know, in stark contrast to like federal habeas where we can make arguments about, you know, constitutional arguments about first amendment rights and meet.

[SPEAKER_03]: are limited in a regression court to make those those same arguments.

[SPEAKER_03]: Just to go back in terms of like, who is ICE?

[SPEAKER_03]: I think yeah, we what we see in the media is, you know, masked officers wearing plain clothing, and yeah, and are quite literally terrorizing our everyday community and neighbors.

[SPEAKER_03]: not even in this moment, but honestly historically they have been doing this for decades but we're seeing just in the current, you know, out there, Terri and regime are really heightened level of this or even just ordinary U.S.

citizens who are protesting ice in the current moment are facing threats of, you know, federal prosecution.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so yeah, I think it is important to take a step back to be like who is ice?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, they have [SPEAKER_03]: you know, enforcement power to like arrest and and detain communities, but like you said, there are also our attorneys in court who represent ICE and you know, they're kind of doing that enforcement, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, deciding whether folks should be deported or not in court.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, I'm a lift or anything else you want to add.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, I think that I think that was perfectly said and I would just uplift something that Rianan mentioned was that [SPEAKER_01]: They are part of, they work for a system and, and that's exactly what it is.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a system, you know, it's not just a few loan bad officers or agents or, you know, like, or just Donald Trump, exactly exactly exactly exactly or just, you know, one president or one immigration judge, it's a system that's working exactly how it was designed and intended to work.

[SPEAKER_01]: and these agencies, these lawyers, these judges, they are simply, you know, they're carrying out the goals of the system.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's helpful that perspective.

[SPEAKER_03]: To center Lakha in all of this of like how her case has been unfolding, I mean, I think the huge huge injustice is just the disproportionate burden that has been put on Lakha to prove she's not a danger or a flight risk in comparison to honestly the little to no work the government has been doing to keep her confined like we just said checking a box to block immigration judges order to have her released on bond.

[SPEAKER_03]: And they're quite literally just throwing spaghetti at the law and seeing what sticks and immigration court.

[SPEAKER_03]: And they've already have conceded actually in her second bond hearing that she does not pose a danger to the community.

[SPEAKER_03]: And after, you know, Lekha was forced to provide declarations from every single family member that she provided money to to basically prove that she gave them money to help them survive all the different difficulties that we talked about earlier.

[SPEAKER_03]: They then [SPEAKER_03]: after, you know, wrongly insinuating that, you know, her attendance at the protests outside the gates of Columbia University and giving support to loved ones somehow implicated to suppose a danger.

[SPEAKER_03]: So now where we are, I mean, in terms of immigration court after they've abandoned their claim that she's not a danger, it's a very flimsy flight risk argument that was really a non-issue before and that's what they're hanging on right now to keep her confined.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so we've talked about the federal habeas and the immigration case, like moving simultaneously, what's that stake in the immigration case?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like what if the government does what it wants to do, what happens to look at?

[SPEAKER_01]: I think when I think about what's at stake for Lecott, and for all of us, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: I think my initial, like, reaction, my, my initial gut is to ask [SPEAKER_01]: Quite literally everything is at stake for her, from her liberty, right her right to live, her right to live freely, free from the shackles of our government, both physically and metaphorically.

[SPEAKER_01]: Her ability to protest, her ability to be reunited with her family and her community members, her ability to be reunited with her mother, who she holds so close to her heart, particularly after, they were already separated for so many years, after her parents' divorce.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, continued confinement imposes significant end and irreparable harm to Leicard.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, not only just the continued loss of liberty and separation from her family and community, but thinking about how her confinement harms other people, like her family members, especially like her mother and brother, who she's the caretaker for.

[SPEAKER_01]: So just thinking about like months and months and months of confinement, lost time, these are things that government [SPEAKER_01]: right, she was working like in the middle of starting her own business, she was learning to play the old, she was, you know, spending time with family, friends, community, these are things that nobody will ever be able to give back to look at.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's everything that's lost and continues to be at stake for look at.

[SPEAKER_01]: For us, you know, similarly for everybody else listening, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, why should anybody else care about Le Caught, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Or her story or her case?

[SPEAKER_01]: I think first and most importantly, Le Caught's case is important to everyone because [SPEAKER_01]: caring about Palestinians, caring about the plight of the Palestinian people is part of our shared humanity.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's first and foremost, and really the message I want to like center and uplift here, like you should care about Palestinians and about Palestine, and you should care about Lecott, because it is a basic part of our humanity.

[SPEAKER_01]: Secondly, I would say like what the Trump administration has done and continues to do to look at doesn't just affect her, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't just affect one person.

[SPEAKER_01]: It implicates all of us because we should all be alarmed by our government's willingness to punish and censor voices advocating for Palestine.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because while today it's Palestine, tomorrow it could be environmental justice, it could be labor rights, it could be voting rights, it could be any other movement for change, and while today it might be non-citizens tomorrow it could be all of us.

[SPEAKER_01]: And those are reasons why everybody should care about what's happening to look like.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's no ceiling on this.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's no ceiling on repression.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's no ceiling on violence that is dulled out by the government, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: The ceiling has to be imposed.

[SPEAKER_02]: It has to be forced actually by the people because without a ceiling, okay, look, it doesn't have due process.

[SPEAKER_02]: The government says she sent money to people.

[SPEAKER_02]: We don't like whatever it is, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: She poses a danger and we're talking about this whole time that she doesn't have.

[SPEAKER_02]: There is no like meaningful opportunity to fight that as they just make their procedural decisions over and over again.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, tomorrow, whatever organization you donated to, Ahmad, whatever organization you donated to.

[SPEAKER_02]: Peter, my co-host on the podcast, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: The government doesn't like it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, but this is why do process is important, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: This is why we should care about what's happening because there's no ceiling on it.

[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't stop unless it's forced to stop.

[SPEAKER_03]: I totally agree with Emma like in terms of this idea that [SPEAKER_03]: You know, our collective liberation depends on Palestinian liberation like every struggle against oppression and injustice is intertwined as I'm going to just said it's not about Palestinian rights today could be environmental justice, it can be labor rights and I think the crackdown on Palestinian speech is is at the tip of the spear it's a testing ground for [SPEAKER_03]: silencing descent, and we've seen right now those floodgates already open in terms of the administration punishing Anything that quite honestly just viewpoints it doesn't like, you know, there is an executive order and all these presidential memos have come out that have basically [SPEAKER_03]: and normalized punishing quote unquote hostile viewpoints, and it's really just anything that challenges the government's policies or authorities.

[SPEAKER_03]: And we've seen this quite literally in terms of labeling and titha as a domestic national security threat to what I talked about earlier of just federally prosecuting ordinary U.S.

citizens for attending a protest against ice.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so what we're seeing in the current moment is [SPEAKER_03]: You know, executive overreach power grabbing in the form of terrorizing our neighbors and community members through active violence, you know perpetuated by the military and ice rates in our streets.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so I think just to take a step back and zooming out.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's not only about La Ga, I think La Ga's case exposes the brutality of the government's broader agenda of mass confinement and deportation, a system that generates revenue, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: It's a poor profit system of immigration confinement.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so I think connecting the dots to, you know, La Ga's story, it's not only about Palestine, it's also, you know, her Palestinian identity, the surveillance that happened [SPEAKER_03]: the government's just really, really aggressive agenda of trying to mass deport and confined anyone.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know, you just mentioned surveillance and that reminds me of like this other huge arm, this other huge part of the machine of the repression campaign of authoritarianism, which is that it's not just ice.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not just ice rating apartment buildings.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not just ice knocking down the door of a family, a neighbor.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not just ice pulling somebody literally off the street.

[SPEAKER_02]: But also a massive surveillance infrastructure that allows them to like hone in on the targets that they're wanting to target.

[SPEAKER_02]: Can you talk about like the surveillance process that happened in La Cloth's case [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that you bring up government surveillance because I think that it's had a really significant role and in the cuts case, but not just the cuts, right, and many of the other organizers and protesters who were similarly situated.

[SPEAKER_01]: targeted by the government, but generally right like thinking about how our government in our country for decades historically has surveilled our communities, Palestinians, Muslims, people of color and you know for look at the same thing has happened here and the consequences have included really invasive and abusive government surveillance, not just of look at but of her community.

[SPEAKER_01]: So of Leca of her family, of her Palestinian community members and Patterson, New Jersey, they were all surveilled.

[SPEAKER_01]: Prior to her confinement, DHS agents, the Department of Homeland Security, visited her mother's home and Patterson.

[SPEAKER_01]: They took a photo of a sign that said Palestine on the family's front porch.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they actually used that as evidence and immigration court to the point of proving dangerousness.

[SPEAKER_01]: And in that visit, they interrogated other, you know, family and friends in Patterson, they questioned her mother.

[SPEAKER_02]: Her mom is a U.S.

citizen, by the way.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Her mom is a U.S.

citizen, exactly right.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, it became clear that they were surveilling and sort of, you know, tracking payments and transfer, like monetary transfer she had made.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, LaClaude's confinement is as part of a broader government crackdown on Palestinian rights advocacy that follows.

[SPEAKER_01]: extensive government surveillance of her and her community in New Jersey.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I think the government and administration is not targeting Leicott just because they want to repress speech.

[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't like, but also because Leicott's Palestinian and I think government surveillance is sort of integral in that.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's no coincidence that in terms of the wave of protesters and organizers that were abducted by the Trump administration have included Palestinians.

[SPEAKER_03]: So like Mahmoud Khalil and Moussin Madawi, you know, I think an including Lakal, they're all being used as ways to chill speech and to show like this is what happens when you, you know, organize and speak up for your people.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and as Palestinians and other immigrant communities know, this massive post 911 surveillance apparatus that was erected in the United States, it's now been used for decades to target people from countries that the U.S.

doesn't like or people who are saying things that the U.S.

government doesn't like.

[SPEAKER_02]: For decades, honestly, even before 911, but more acute and constantly intensifying like since then.

[SPEAKER_03]: what we're seeing in the current moment is just added like a new top tray of like our new element of like crackdown on like repressive speech specifically on Palestine.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we know it well.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we mentioned that LaCla is currently held in in ice detention facility in North Texas.

[SPEAKER_02]: Do you know anything about like what it's like on the inside?

[SPEAKER_02]: What these conditions are inside that detention facility?

[SPEAKER_03]: the kind of condition that are in, you know, at the detention center where La Gah is, I think it's not unique to her.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's a system designed to essentially break the human spirit and to wear people down.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I think for the listeners, just, you know, you can imagine what it would feel like to be abducted by the government and to be forced into an overcrowded detention center.

[SPEAKER_03]: thousands of miles away from your family, from your community, along with hundreds of other women in La Gose case, we're all trying to make sense of their future, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Anxietys are off the roof about not only being possibly deported to a country that you've actively fled, but now in this administration, the risk of being put on a plane to a third country, where you've never even lived in, where you could face harm, including death.

[SPEAKER_03]: So now, add to that, the conditions of confinement, [SPEAKER_03]: It's freezing cold.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's hard to sleep.

[SPEAKER_03]: You have zero privacy.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's barely any nutrition healthy meals.

[SPEAKER_03]: You're isolated from your family and friends.

[SPEAKER_03]: You don't really have access to the, you know, the tablets, which is how you know you're able to speak to people on the outside.

[SPEAKER_03]: And you're just stuck in a place where you only get a small window during the day to take in a little bit of sunlight.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so I think what's been really humbling to see, right, in terms of seeing how the conditions have been really difficult for her is just this seeing spiritual resistance as liberation.

[SPEAKER_03]: Lekha is a really, really deeply spiritual person, even when she turned herself into ice, after being surreal for a week, she didn't take anything else with her that day, but her Quran, which she still has to this day.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so I think in terms of obstacles she's had, like in terms of her religious liberties and inside, [SPEAKER_03]: It's because I know that, you know, prayer is a really coarse source of strength and survival for folks.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so, I think for a lot of God's been, yeah, just really inspiring and humbling, how that's been like the constant for her, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Despite all the difficulties, every kind of prayer and moment of spiritual connection, but God is able to carve out for herself.

[SPEAKER_03]: is an act of liberation.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so I think that piece is really important just of how she's been trying to survive the really difficult of difficult conditions of confinement.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then also just watching her advocate not only for herself, but for other women in the inside, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: She's recognized and she's told us that because she speaks English, it gives her special access and privilege that [SPEAKER_03]: Other women don't have and she's used that to uplift the dignity that they and honestly all of us have and so I think the cause experience reflects the Cruelty's that defined carceral systems generally and that weren't their abolition.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've never met, look all obviously, and I am so proud of look all and she is so representative of a Palestinian spiritual and political resistance, I think to oppression, which is that.

[SPEAKER_02]: you oppress me, you confine me, you detain me, you do genocide on my people.

[SPEAKER_02]: I am insisting in front of all of that that I am a free person and that I am a person with dignity and I am a person with autonomy and I will exercise it in whatever conditions you put me in and I don't want to cry.

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, you make me emotional too.

[SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, yeah, it's, it's water works when we talk to like all every conversation with her like moves me.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so it makes me so proud, it makes me so proud and so honored.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm deeply, deeply honored to have both of you on five, four today to speak about local, to talk about the work that you're doing.

[SPEAKER_02]: It is so, so important through freedom fighters in the legal sense.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much.

[SPEAKER_02]: But before we go, I want to turn to, you know, we talked about why people should care.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, why should you care about Leicott?

[SPEAKER_02]: This is one person who is in ice detention right now.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think we, I think you, Amanda and Sadaftu, like, really illuminated how Leicott and others are canaries in the coal mine, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: They tell us something about the society that we live in, [SPEAKER_02]: and what problems, what problems we face and should be organizing to resist and overcome.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so you should care about LeCla as someone who is showing us all of these things, but you should also care about the Canary itself and just caring about our shared humanity.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, [SPEAKER_02]: for the people listening who care about local and and care about these issues.

[SPEAKER_02]: Are there is there anything that they can do?

[SPEAKER_02]: Do you have any calls to action to to share with listeners to advocate on behalf of local?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think, you know, we, the legal team were fighting hard for locality and federal court and, you know, our immigration attorney likewise, similarly is fighting hard for her liberty.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, we are seeing the role of the courts as particularly crucial in a climate like this to curb abuses of executive power.

[SPEAKER_01]: But we know and acknowledge and recognize that the law alone is not the only vehicle for seeking justice and accountability.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so if Lakota were here right now with us and we were to ask her, you know, what should people do to support you, what should people do to uplift your story and uplift your case, she would have one very clear answer.

[SPEAKER_01]: She would say take to the streets.

[SPEAKER_01]: demand and end to the genocide, advocate for freedom and liberation of all Palestinians, she would tell all of us to do what she has been wrongfully prevented from doing for the past eight months.

[SPEAKER_01]: She would ask us to raise our voices and to stand and solidarity through action.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, thank you so much, Ahmed, for uplifting that because I think that's just core to go look-ah, she's always whenever we talk to her, wanting to use her story to center her people, what's going on in Raza, the ongoing occupation, and so if the call of action was to come from look-ah, it would be that from the legal team and, right, I think like, um, [SPEAKER_03]: Emily said, you know, the law alone doesn't say, well, well, well, let's save us and so we have to use all the other different types of strategies together and one thing that we've been doing very closely.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, is combining the power of organizing and collective action.

[SPEAKER_03]: with organizers who are embedded in like the free Palestine movement, the abolish ice movement.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so, you know, the Gaas are a relentless community of organizer than allies, not only in New Jersey, but all the way to Texas.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so, the past few months we've been working really closely.

[SPEAKER_03]: and trying to combine our legal strategy with organizing on the ground.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so one concrete call of action that we've worked closely with, with the organizers is policy advocacy.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right now, we need to keep pressuring our friendly political elected.

[SPEAKER_03]: So there's a free local campaign petition letter that's circulating.

[SPEAKER_03]: at the moment for elected officials to act in New Jersey and Texas to publicly call for her release.

[SPEAKER_03]: We're trying to get at least 10,000 signatures, we're already at 3000 after just releasing the petition.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, we've been seeing local phone banking campaigns happening which has been really inspiring of folks just calling their representatives to demand her release.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so I think together like the petition alongside the phone banking and just calling the elected as show strengthen numbers regarding public pressure.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so we need all these things to happen at the same time.

[SPEAKER_03]: We need people to keep protesting.

[SPEAKER_03]: we need folks to keep putting pressure on elected.

[SPEAKER_03]: And we need people to keep amplifying her story.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so I'd also just put in a plug, you know, like she has on Instagram the free Lekakord hip-hage, which again has some of the beautiful statements that I'm upset in terms of her writing.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think just in terms of, yeah, amplifying her story, I think that's also another way for folks to plug in.

[SPEAKER_03]: And to learn more about her, [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and we will definitely link the Instagram page, the petition in the show notes.

[SPEAKER_02]: If everybody listening right now to this interview, signs that petition, it will be far past 10,000 signatures.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I am asking five four listeners.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you are listening, you click the link in the show notes.

[SPEAKER_02]: You sign that petition.

[SPEAKER_02]: It takes 15 seconds, and we will be past that campaign's goal of 10,000 signatures on that petition.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, Sadaf Hassan, Ahmed Thabatay, lawyers on the team for Mokal Koddhiyah, I cannot thank you enough for joining us today, I cannot thank you enough for the work you're doing.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm so very grateful and honored.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for joining us.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, if I could just end with some words from Laka, which is the capture her.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's something that she said to us, which is, we are a Palestinian.

[SPEAKER_03]: We find joy and everything.

[SPEAKER_03]: Dude, I'm on my period, I'm sorry, you're like, girl, shut up, even if you weren't on your period, you would be allowed to cry and it would be okay.

[SPEAKER_03]: And totally, if you do not, you do not need a reason.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's such an inspiring person, honestly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah, she's, yeah, she's amazing.

[SPEAKER_01]: She gives me strength and I'm not going to and confinement.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, like, we're supposed to be a strength a source of strength for her and it's like, often reversed.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Don't tell my homies I'm soft.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right, folks, thank you for listening.

[SPEAKER_02]: We are going to put some links in the show notes of this episode for you to check out for you to sign that petition.

[SPEAKER_02]: You can follow the free McClot Cordilla campaign on Instagram at free McClot Cordilla.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's free LEQAA.

[SPEAKER_02]: K-O-R-D-I-A, and definitely hit the link for signing her petition down in the show notes.

[SPEAKER_02]: We are also going to share a story in the show notes as well, a story that NPR recently did, in which you can hear Mokka in her own words, talking about what's happened.

[SPEAKER_02]: Next week, a very relevant case, DHS V Thuracidium.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a case about the heaviest rights of immigrants who are subject to removal proceedings.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's an old case, but it has a lot of implications for today.

[SPEAKER_00]: Five to four is presented by true log projects.

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