Sean Adams: Can music save the planet?

I realize that's quite a grand big opening question for a YouTube video and a podcast, but I think there's a very good chance it can.

In fact, a study from Glasgow University found that 82% of music fans want to prevent climate breakdown.

That's 10% more than general population.

I don't really know what that says about people that are not necessarily self-defined as music fans and why they don't wanna save the planet, but that's a question that we're not gonna answer in this episode.

Of that 82%, only 3% really knew what they could do as music fans to stop everything going wrong and life on earth ending and.

That is quite a shocking stat that there's all these different initiatives in the industry.

There's some really amazing projects.

There's things like Overheated that Billie Eilish runs, which is climate conference and all the things that she does at her shows.

There is Earth Percent, which Brian Eno does, where artists pledge a percent of their money into climate initiatives, various different companies, projects.

Charities, organizations that I've met over the years have been doing amazing things, and one of the driving forces behind the amazing things they're doing is the climate activist Tori Tsui.

She wrote this fantastic book, it's not just you, and in this podcast I got to sit down with her, pick her expert brain to talk about what.

We can do as music fans, what we can do as humans, really, and some of the complexities of complicities of the music industry, some of the things that she's done with the artists and activists that she works with and.

Well, I'll let her introduce herself.

This is Tori on stage before massive attack performed to the Co-op Live arena in Manchester.

Tori Tsui: Good evening, Manchester.

How are you feeling?

My name is Tory Tsui and I am a climate justice activist and it is such a privilege to be here with you all tonight.

Today is World Environment Day and Massive Attack.

Have endorsed the call for a fossil fuel treaty, a global framework to phase out from coal, oil, and gas.

Fossil fuels are weapons of mass destruction, fueling climate breakdown.

And also the genocide of Palestinians in Gaza.

Right now, my friend and fellow comrade, Greta Thunberg, is sailing to break the siege in Gaza, alongside 11 other activists.

It's so important our to ensure their safety.

But the fossil fuel industry does not act in isolation.

It is being bankrolled by big financial corporations.

Recently the co-op live arena announced a partnership with Barclays, which is one of the leading perpetrator of the climate crisis.

Barclays is providing financial investments to the fossil fuel industry and the arms trade, which is slaughtering innocent Palestinians.

It is time that we took a stand against these profit-driven industries.

It is time that we fight to protect what we love, our planet, our people, and our homes depend on it.

Fossil fuel treaty provides a pathway forward.

And so I'm asking each and every single one of you to join us in this fight.

Every person who has a voice and a conscience, we demand an end to big profiteering industries.

We demand an end to the banks that fund them.

We to the genocide Za.

We demand justice.

Now it's time.

Fossil Fuel Treaty free.

Sean Adams: This conversation that you're about to hear takes place backstage at EarthSonic Live in Manchester.

It was a reasonably calm, thoughtful conversation, and it was in a room where there wasn't an amazing setup.

So there's just video of Tori because it was far too complicated to get myself on camera.

If you subscribe to the Drowned in Sound YouTube channel, you will be able to find many more videos from my trip to Manchester where I watched people.

Sampling frogs and having a music lesson in how to make music with frog sounds.

I saw artists performing underneath the skeletons of whales.

I watched an installation with beautiful scenery, um, and lush music with the lights turned out at night in the museum, which was great, and the evening was topped off by a performance or a DJ set.

From Groove Mata, so that's EarthSonic.

But this is my conversation with Tori Tsui, which took place at Manchester Museum, which is a natural history museum in Manchester.

Over to me introducing Tory again.

Hi, Tori.

Welcome to the Drowning Sound Podcast.

, we are in Manchester today, backstage at EarthSonic Live.

The last time you were here, You stood on a very big stage in front of a large crowd of massive attack fans Mm.

having just got Andy Burnham to sign, the fossil free nonproliferation treaty.

I have to pause saying that because there's a lot of words to get out.

, what is that and how did that all come about?

Tori Tsui: Thank you for having me on the podcast, Sean.

And yeah, that moment in Manchester was quite an iconic one.

That happened earlier this year in June actually.

Um, as part of their performance that they were doing at the Co-op Live, which is apparently the most sustainable arena in the uk.

Sean Adams: co-op Are the good guys, aren't

Tori Tsui: they?

Yeah.

Well you say that, but not to digress, but they, were being sponsored by Barclayss, which I did call out on stage.

Um, but yeah, you mentioned the fossil fuel treaty.

They're essentially a global framework to phase out from coal, oil, and gas and they're a complimentary agreement to the Paris Agreement, which was trying to keep the world within 1.5 degrees of warming, which as we know, unfortunately we have exceeded that.

Yeah.

And I say we with this kind of, I dunno, I lament slightly because We implies that it's.

A a collective thing, which by all means is.

But actually there are people who are most responsible for us going over 1.5 degrees, and there are industries most responsible, specifically the fossil fuel industry and.

and fossil fuels, coal, oil, and gas account for 86% of all carbon emissions over the past 10.

years.

And The fossil fuel treaty is essentially trying.

to get the world to phase out from these addictive materials.

the thing that's really frustrating, with something like Paris is that it doesn't actually mention coal, oil and gas despite them being the leading cause of the climate crisis.

And as we've seen with the UN FCCC Cop 30 in, beem, um, the sort of biggest climate conference each year, there isn't really much of this emphasis on actually phasing out from fossil fuels that they're taking seriously.

Firstly because we keep seeing them host cops and petrostate.

Secondly, because the biggest delegation is always made up of people from the fossil fuel industry.

And thirdly, every single time fossil fuel phase out gets kind of mentioned to, to be implemented in the agreement, it's just shut down.

And that's unsurprising because there are so many lobbyists in the room.

Sean Adams: So what does it mean for like Andy Burnham?

What's He committed to doing?

Is he just committed to like not having a coal power station in Manchester?

Tori Tsui: Well, I mean, if he did open a coal power station, we'd be having some words with him.

But to have, um, a city like Manchester, which I think actually has like stand on in terms of their commitments to sustainability.

Specifically, if you look around the sort of like, um, commitments to sustainable transport, which I think is very impressive.

Sean Adams: They're even called the B Network.

Tori Tsui: process.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's very green Um, and you know.

to have Someone like, um, mayor Andy Burnham endorses just goes to show that cities can lead the way to a greener future.

And, and also folks like Massive Attack who really stand committed to, um, Lowering their carbon footprint what would their sort of act 1.5 initiative and the way that they power their concerts on renewable energy and, and just generally stand on the right side of history in terms of political views.

It was really impactful for us and you know, I think.

endorsements are an interesting thing when it comes to, uh, I guess something like the treaty because while I.

you know, we might not think they have material change embedded into the action itself.

I do think that having people with large profiles and political power can actually shift the dialogue And get our, Our, national governments to act in a way in accordance with something like the Fossil Fuel Treaty.

And it's currently endorsed by 18 nation states, so 18 countries around the world.

And that endorsement actually does translate into change because this year is the first year that they're trying to implement, um.

you know, policy changes within their legislation to move away from fossil fuels, which is really exciting.

And at the.

Cop, The, um, fossil Fuel Treaty announced they would be hosting the first ever fossil fuel phase out conference in Columbia next April.

Sean Adams: Should that to be a festival you go to get another F in there?

Tori Tsui: Oh my gosh, for sure Get a

Sean Adams: massive attack on the bill.

Tori Tsui: Well, might have to.

Sean Adams: Yeah.

Um, so in terms of the music industry mm-hmm.

Like you straddle the climate world, which we all straddle the climate world.

Sure.

And the.

music industry.

And I looked and I couldn't see if lots of music companies had signed the treaty.

Mm-hmm.

Like obviously vinyl is made with petrochemicals.

Yeah.

Um, And we've been looking into within place of war, the emissions and the energy use of streaming platforms.

Yeah.

And how things like tracks have gone from being, I'm gonna glance at Ellie, who's been doing the research but about 20, megs a song, to about 180 megs a song.

So the amount of energy you use every time you stream a song Yeah.

is more, Mm-hmm.

um, and most people aren't really thinking about it.

Obviously individually Sure.

we can't make that much difference, but if Apple, Spotify, all of the other platforms thought about the energy use, Mm.

they could say, well, this is the low, and it Like your headphones aren't that good.

You don't need to be listening to it, this quality.

Sure, sure.

Um, so I guess the, the thing that.

I'm curious about is like the music industry is obviously a huge industry.

Yeah.

Ships things all around the world, Mm-hmm.

hasn't really introduced the new formats of vinyl.

Like Yeah.

I know there's like the K-pop for Planet, planet movement and they're really great at like getting K-pop artists to kind of change how, they operate.

I guess like what sort of things have you seen and and maybe are all the big record companies and streaming services signed up?

Tori Tsui: Well, the first comment that you kind of.

made Was about industries, like the music industry endorsing something like the treaty, and they can technically, I just don't know if many people and many, um, big record labels touring companies, what have you know, that this is an actual action that they can do.

And I think it's because in part, you know, the name and the word fossil fuel treaty, uh, feels quite, um, like a, an entirely Different world Yeah.

that, that, uh, only climate people are, part of, but that's not true.

we're

Sean Adams: we're in a natural history museum, right?

Yeah.

Of Dinosaur.

brain.

Yeah.

It feels quite removed from the music.

Tori Tsui: And I think we have a, we have a job at the treaty to kind of break down those barriers.

But also I think maybe there's a fear of like, oh, if we're committing to this.

we'll never use fossil fuels.

But that's, but that's not what we're saying.

I guess what we're saying is that we live in this world that is very reliant on fossil fuels, and you can be part of this transition.

So we call it.

a just transition, meaning that no one gets left behind.

it doesn't mean that we Turn off the taps and everything ends overnight.

That's just not physically possible.

So, you know, I would love to see more people in the music industry, more big record labels, touring agencies.

what have you.

endorse the treaty?

In terms of developments that I'm seeing within the music industry, I, there's so many people working at the intersection of green energy and touring.

Touring is very carbon intensive.

Um, whether that be through actually putting on the.

show or getting.

An artist From A to B and it's not just the artist, it's there it's the audience.

Yeah, the audience as well.

Their teams, um, the band members, the equipment that they're shipping out.

There's so many different things to factor in, and I think that a lot of the time it feels like too much of a minefield to even begin to think about how to navigate doing a tour sustainably that people just don't even try at all.

But I have seen some really awesome work being done in that sector.

My friend Pauline Boon runs um, a consultancy business called Solia, and her specialty is all about green touring and is actually, she's actually someone who wants to say to artists.

You are also worried about this being more expensive.

It can actually cut costs because you're saving money that would otherwise be spent on fuel.

And I think that's A really important thing to remember is just because something's seen as more sustainable, doesn't it inherently mean that it's gonna cost you more?

Yeah.

So the work that she does, in that is really cool.

And also, um, people who are doing research in audience opinions on climate, I think that's really important to shout about because I think it's like something like over 70% of audience members or people who consume music actually want artists to take action on the climate.

Sean Adams: And I think music declares Emergency, Did a survey and said 82% of fans care about the planet.

Yeah.

Preserving life on earth, that's huge.

But only 3% know what to do, Mm.

and I think that's the big gap, Yeah.

and that's where artists can come in.

Exactly.

And that That's the work you're doing with Earth percent and different organizations

Tori Tsui: Yeah.

Sean Adams: to give artists the kind of the option, the vocabulary and the voice and the

Tori Tsui: yeah.

Sean Adams: what's.

What's some of the things like you've worked with Billie Eilish and you are in the Overheated.

documentary she made, and you Do climate conferences with Billie.

Tori Tsui: Mm-hmm.

Sean Adams: What is it that you think other artists could learn from her approach?

Tori Tsui: Well, I think it does need to be said that someone of Billie's, um, size and her fandom And and the resources that she has means that she can technically afford to do more than, say, mid small size artists.

Um, and because of the impact that she has, it is worth investing in that as well.

So I just wanna caveat that, but there are so many artists of her caliber and size who have really influential platforms, and.

I guess.

You know, they Should be the ones taking the responsibility to do better.

Because if someone like Billie can do it, then they don't really have an excuse.

I think, Um, I, I really love how whenever she sells out an arena and she's there, for a while, the food goes plant-based.

Um, there are water refill points, there's like an eco village that Reverb does where they have lots of people.

who are.

Campaigning and canvassing and tabling, talking about the sorts of organizations that they run, whether it's Billie's Mom's organization Support, and Feed, which provides plant-based meals to a lot of low income folks.

Sean Adams: Her Mom is one of my favorite people to follow.

Mens come I, She's amazing.

Tori Tsui: I love Maggie.

Maggie Baird: My name is Maggie Baird.

I am the founder of Support and Feed.

I am the mother of Billie Eilish and Phineas, and I'm a citizen of the world and love my neighbors and in hunger and fixing our broken food systems is important to me.

And one of the goals of support and feed, the mission of support and feed is to address climate change.

And food insecurity by taking action, moving the world toward a more equitable and sustainable plant-based food system.

We first started supporting feed at the beginning of the COVID lockdown, and because of that, we really thought it was sort of a crisis organization.

We would feed a lot of people, but we realize as we feed people these beautiful meals.

These soul enriching meals.

Meals that are not just feeding them for an hour, but are giving them a respect of a beautiful restaurant quality meal and nourishing them and helping them understand that plant-based food can be delicious and can make you feel great.

We have a consistent presence in 11 cities in the us.

We are also involved with other organizations around the world.

A lot of that is thanks to my children.

So Billie's tour allowed us to expand to feed people in the cities on her tour and to connect with community organizations around the country that she was touring to.

We were able later to do that with Paramore and we've done with other artists.

Tori Tsui: She's amazing.

And I, I say that with such fondness because She is almost like a mom of the climate movement.

She's such a kind person just the grit that she has, she's so dedicated to this.

Um,

Sean Adams: she's really good at explaining things as well.

Yeah, and I think, and I think one of the reasons why I was really keen to speak to you is I think everything feels quite complicated.

Yeah.

And I've listened to a few different interviews you've done and we've spoken a few times and I feel like you have a clarity to the way you talk about things.

And it's like.

I've been doing different Research and you suddenly get into like tons and leaders.

Mm-hmm.

Tori Tsui: Yeah.

Mission

Sean Adams: suddenly start to become this quite abstract.

Tori Tsui: Yeah.

Sean Adams: And not every day and not kind of manageable thing.

Mm-hmm.

And I think one of the things, I can't remember exactly what you said in a different interview, but you were talking about the kind of the way in which obviously BP came up with the carbon footprint Sure.

and how we've kind of individualized and personalized Yeah.

so much of this, but whereas what you're doing with Brian Eno and a Percent is very much about.

Well, you can just give a percent of money and this will go to organizations that are doing the education that are like client Earth taking on the the kind of governments and organizations.

Yeah.

So I, I guess rather than needing to turn an entire venue plant-based

Tori Tsui: Sure.

Sean Adams: or run your festival on different fuels.

Yeah.

like do you think artists are aware that there's those simple things that they could be doing and like, And and do you think that that stuff is working in terms of systemic change?

Tori Tsui: So in terms.

of Artists being able to donate money by a percent, for instance?

Yeah,

Sean Adams: like a percent.

Tori Tsui: Yeah.

You know what, I think, I think a lot of artists are Probably aware of it.

I mean, Brian has such an influential network of artists, um, from his long illustrious career.

And also the, it's a testament to the community building that he does.

He's.

Such an incredible glue who brings People together from all walks of life, not just in music as well.

Um, and also I bumped into some people here who work at, Sony music publishing, and they are very aware of the work that Earth present's doing and EarthSonic as well.

Um, and it just goes to show that there are kind of folks who work in impact in the music industry who are trying to push these ideas as well and really trying to bring people on board.

So I would say that the awareness is there to a certain degree.

Not Everyone knows about them, of course, but I think actually the biggest fear that people have is they're afraid of getting it wrong.

Now, something like pledging 1% of what you earn to the planet, it feels pretty low risk.

But I think actually from a lot of artists that I've met they do want to be part of the change, but they're, they're almost just like, okay, I can do that, but what more can I do?

Um, what feels personal, what feels authentic?

And I think there's a large.

Part of the, um, hindrance that revolves around fear and just inauthenticity.

Like they really wanna do something, but they're just afraid of being called out Mm-hmm.

or being seen as hypocrites.

But at this point, I guess my my piece of advice to people who feel that way is, you know what, we don't have much time.

Yeah.

And, and we really need everyone to get involved.

And you'd be surprised.

I think fans are actually more encouraging.

Of doing something than nothing at all.

I certainly would be.

Um, you know, it's not something that, um, they're most responsible for either.

Realistically speaking, music industry is not the most responsible when it comes to climate change.

There is an entire industry actively pumping out CO2 into the atmosphere and are lobbying our major conferences, and bribing politicians to not enforce climate.

laws.

Like that's pretty scary.

But

Sean Adams: the music, the music industry and music fans do use the energy grid.

Tori Tsui: They do?

Yeah.

And

Sean Adams: now that things are streaming, like Mm, there's different ways in which people are consuming music, Sure.

Which, but then most of where we e exist online is on platforms Yeah.

and the ification, which is the Corey doctor term of just like adding nonsense functionality like the Yeah.

AI DJ on Spotify.

Oh

Tori Tsui: God.

Sean Adams: And that is burning up more energy.

more Water.

Just, Sure.

just to play.

use.

So they

Tori Tsui: are still, yeah, they're still part of the solution and the problem.

Yeah.

Um, I think, perhaps people are aware that there is a footprint attached to their artistry, their name.

It's the fear I think, that they're gonna be lumped in with the big bad guys.

Yeah.

Um, At least that's what I found from talking to artists and also this common.

rhetoric, Which is, I don't know what to do.

I want to do something, that I don't know what to do.

And also The fact that the music space at the moment it's so hard to survive.

Yeah.

Like most artists I know are barely making ends meet and they don't wanna compromise any chance of being financially financially sustainable.

I mean, just if we're gonna Talk about, say something like, um, what was happening in Palestine, what is happening in Palestine, the genocide.

So many artists would come up with this, um, you know, common grievance, which was, I've just been warned or told off or yeah.

or Said that I can't speak about this and that I'll get dropped from my record label and and things like that.

And, and I can imagine there Probably also similar circumstances to do with being politically, uh, vocal about climate change in the fossil fuel industry.

Now, the landscape of mainstream campaigning has changed quite a bit with movements coming and going and dying down and rising up, and we've seen that with the climate movement.

It's, It seemed to have gone a lot quieter compared to the so-called heydays of 2018 and 2019.

Sean Adams: I mean, even at Glastonbury it was in a heat wave.

Tori Tsui: Yeah.

And

Sean Adams: I don't think a single art, like I watched a lot and I looked up, a lot of different things.

I don't think I saw any artist talking.

Yeah.

Joining the dots between, you are out here sweating.

Yeah.

And when you go home, you should be taking on the billionaires and the corporations Yeah.

Who are treating our planet and the way they are.

yeah.

I, I guess one, one conversation we've had before is, is using a term like climate too complicated Mm.

'cause we can't see or feel or touch it.

Whereas You can protect nature, you can protect future generations, and that's there's something, that idea of people wanting to be a protector or someone wanting to be a defender.

Does that, does that language help or does it

Tori Tsui: Yeah.

It's interesting because we've laid a lot of groundwork.

For the climate movement.

This has been a term that's come up time and time again.

Um, especially when talking about, you know, the impacts of climate change or, how this energy source impacts the climate.

or we can reduce climate emissions.

I mean, it's, it's just such a common word in the the lexicon of how we talk about environmentalism that I think, yeah, a lot of people haven't really given it much thought, but actually when.

You talk to people outside of that space, it's not a term that really resonates with 'em.

Like you said, it doesn't feel very tangible and I think that there's almost, um, a part of it that has become tainted by mainstream media and like there's such a distinct portrayal of people in the climate movement that it's become something that isn't really cool to talk about or interesting to talk about.

Now, obviously, the person who campaigns in the climate.

Uh, in me says, no guys, we need to care about this, Like, can we just get over ourselves and actually just like stop bickering over terminology.

But actually I think the work that I've done in the music space and meeting people outside of my own bubble has really made me appreciate that sometimes leading with climate isn't necessarily the best thing to get them to act on the climate.

Yeah.

Um, I think something that's really helped is thinking about, okay, what is it that they actually care about?

and how can I tie.

Climate into that or show that it is a great magnifier for every single crisis on this planet.

I mean, you know, when working on the Together for Palestine concert and kind of attending these sessions with artists who wanted to learn about Palestine, they were really engaged and they felt.

a duty To talk about it.

Um, and I think that's in part to do with oppression also, because it's horrific what's been happening and every human should feel compelled to speak out.

Sean Adams: Mm-hmm.

Tori Tsui: But something like climate can often be left out of the, um, the picture when it comes to such a awful awful genocide.

But it is very much front and center of.

What is happening?

I mean, the military industrial complex is so carbon intensive.

We're seeing eco side be committed.

Um, human rights are a part of climate justice.

And so whenever I try and talk to people who are Concerned about what's happening to Palestinians, I'm also like, you do realize that the war, um, industrial complex is in bed with the fossil fuel industrial complex Yeah.

and like actually a really key way.

To tackle these crises from um, a unified angle is to think about fossil fuels and to think about the military.

Um, And so I do feel like it's about asking them about what's kind of on their mind at the moment and then trying to bring in climate into that.

I mean,

Sean Adams: even as stuff is basic, as the number of festivals canceled?

'cause of extreme Weather, Both flooding and heat.

like Yeah.

And then the fires in LA Oh gosh.

literally burnt down recording studios early this year.

Sure.

And I think there's a lot of examples of.

This isn't something in the future, right?

This is something that is that is happening now.

Mm-hmm.

And I, And I, I think one of the things I've found when I've spoken to people, the 1.5 element mm-hmm.

doesn't quite add up 'cause people are so used to putting the oven on at 180 or 200 and not you knowing the difference.

Sure.

But I don't think they that point.

Tori Tsui: Courage feels So arbitrary.

Yeah.

To a lot of people, um, even to someone like me who's very conscious of like what these things actually entail and mean, 1.5 Has been so repeated and hammered into my psyche that it almost starts to lose meaning.

And I think it's because something like 1.5 we're not on track for, and secondly, like a lot of people don't really seem to understand what that entails.

What, what does that actually result in?

What will that look like?

What number of floods, what number of wildfires?

I think people need to see something tangible.

As opposed to just this like slightly obscure number that doesn't really hold much personal meaning to people.

And I think that's also part of, it is like in order to really transform people's behavior and communicate a crisis of this scale, it has to feel personal and numbers just don't really cut it.

For a lot of people

Sean Adams: Mm-hmm.

Speaker: Hi there.

It's Emma.

Hi, I'm Gay Crash in the podcast.

To quickly tell you about the Drowned in Sound Newsletter, every Wednesday I invite myself into your inbox with permission, of course, to share opinion writing and resources, tell you about cool things that you should be involved in within the world of music, activism, et cetera.

I also bring track of the week and a little bit of hopeful news for you because we all know that the news cycle can be grim at the best at times.

Strand in Sound newsletter every Wednesday in your inbox.

Sign up now.

Sean Adams: Mm-hmm.

you've spoken.

Quite a bit about how intersectional like, and literally we were just talking about it there, like with the with wars in military.

Yeah, like if it was an intersection a junction, which I like.

What other things would be at that crossroads

Tori Tsui: at the intersection between military and fossil fuels?

Sean Adams: just like the climate movement.

I feel like every, like, it's the, inner, like inequality is huge Oh gosh.

Tori Tsui: Yeah.

Everything, I mean gender inequality, um, racism, disability justice as well.

Injustice rather just general human rights.

Yeah.

Every single struggle and form of oppression enacted on humans Non-human animal, others intersects with climate change.

I can't name a single thing that isn't either exacerbated.

by or, you know, um, directly impacting the climate.

Sean Adams: Do you think that the world that we're living in right now, now, that that music has really found its place in this space?

Like, for instance, I can't think of many records.

Mm.

That's theme is the what you can do or what is happening.

Like there's lots of songs that like the featuring nature projects That sounds right Are doing where you can credit nature.

Sure.

Like it's interesting, there's not like a big concept album like, but then again you go through like Kate Bush's catalog Yeah.

there's all songs about Nature and amongst that, yeah.

Bjork catalog is full of, but I just wonder whether it feels like often we have these big political moments Mm.

and there's like a song that you can attach to it or an album, or a whole series of events.

Mm.

Do you feel like there's been that same kind of.

impetus?

Tori Tsui: Not for a while.

I don't feel like that.

that's been the case for a while.

I think if you look at the music that kind of gets out there and that gets streamed, so much of it has been deeply influenced by the social media landscape, and it's all about what hook sounds catchy and what can be attached to a trend.

And it just all feels like deeply commodified.

And I think that almost Distracts us from the quote unquote real world.

because we're seriously living in like this social media landscape where people are just trying to get something viral as opposed to create change and meaning.

Um, I think that's, yeah, deeply influenced the landscape of music.

I also think that, you know, while music is inherently political, um, I often remark that apolitical music is also a political stance.

Sean Adams: Yeah.

Tori Tsui: It's a reflection of the times that we live in, and I think that in a world.

that's So fraught with tension and politicization, people choosing to make music that is inherently apolitical is a reflection of the fact that it's seen as too contentious to be political.

So I think there is a real lack of, uh, yeah, willingness to make this sort of music.

And also if you look at what sells, it's not political music.

Sean Adams: and I think it's also like you consider the darkness.

Like It's not.

a cheery topic to Talk about.

Yeah.

The Like and you just think that it's ripe for like some beautiful melancholic record.

Like I know The Cure of sort of touched on it and it's, I dunno, it just seems fascinating to me that of all the topics that songs are written about.

Yeah.

And it's like you can't name like a big concept album that's Sure.

Based around all of this.

Like I know that and Shakar have written songs Yeah.

But they're not like Daytime Radio one bangers, are they?

Tori Tsui: Yeah.

I think there's almost this feeling that.

uh, music is an escape, uh, for a lot of people.

And when you have the world as it is constantly shoved down your throat, probably the last thing you want to do is put your headphones on and listen to something that reminds you of how grim things are.

Sean Adams: Um, obviously people are doing that with this podcast,

Tori Tsui: I mean, I do this every single day, you know, I can't switch off.

Sean Adams: Yeah.

I almost feel guilty asking you these questions 'cause I know how.

like you've written a lot about eco anxiety, and Yeah.

eco eco survivalism as you've been talking about it more recently.

Sure.

And like I know the the number of days I wake up and I'm like, oh, the guardian, have stuck out a news story,

at 1:00 AM that just seems really bleak about the future of life on Earth.

I know.

And then by 9:00 AM it's not even on their homepage.

anymore.

Tori Tsui: I know.

It's, so scary, isn't it?

It's, it's something.

that I've been really conscious of lately that The consumption of of so-called negative news, um, which you might also be able to substitute negative for realistic.

um, And I have found that kind of by moving out of solely climate related spaces, I've tried to get into the heads of everyday people who don't engage with this kind of stuff, and I can understand why.

Um, I think that's one of our Greatest challenges is to think like other people who don't seem to be engaged with this.

and I don't think it's that they don't care.

It's just really hard to care about stuff when you're caring about 1,000,001 other things there.

Kind of fundamentally rely on you, trying to put food on the table, provide for other people.

or, You know, take care of yourself, first and foremost in a really short window of time.

whereas something like climate change, while it is an.

existential threat to People right now and has impacted people in the past as well.

It doesn't necessarily feel like it's on a lot of people's doorsteps.

And I feel like maybe that feeling that it's not an urgent thing, even though it very much is, stops them from feeling invested in the fight.

Sean Adams: And do you think some of that is also because the biggest extractors and the biggest polluters are such big powerful organizations even and countries?

Tori Tsui: Yeah.

Sean Adams: That like I think it's interesting listening to Zach Polanski, like he's, I don't think I've really heard him talk about the environment or climate

Tori Tsui: in

Sean Adams: most of the last few months.

I've heard him talk a lot about inequality that's tactical and billionaires.

Tori Tsui: Yeah.

Sean Adams: And obviously there was an amazing clip of Billie recently speaking right to Mark Zuckerberg's face about how billionaires should be using their wealth.

Tori Tsui: Yeah.

We're in a time right now where the world is really, really bad and really dark and people need empathy and help more than kind of ever, especially in our country.

And I'd say if you have money, it would be great to use it for good things and maybe give it to some people that need it.

Um, and.

I love you all, but there's a few people in here that have a lot more money than me.

And uh, if you're a billionaire, why are you a billionaire?

No hate.

But yeah, give your money away, shorty's.

Love you guys.

Thank you so much.

Sean Adams: And I wonder whether a lot of this and a lot of the intersectional topics, mm-hmm.

they're often entire media organization set up by people.

with all their Money and fossil fuel.

Yeah.

Like I think this, yeah,

Tori Tsui: it's all connected.

Sean Adams: The, Like De Smog did a study and I think there's something like 65% of stories in the sun were like climate denial rather than

Tori Tsui: Yeah.

Sean Adams: Um, and it's like Ruper Murdoch has probably got loads of money.

Tori Tsui: Exactly.

I mean, you know, the media is also in bed with oil and gas and it's not surprising that the narratives that they're putting out there are really not in favor of climate action.

Um, and when you have.

Something like that, that you're up against the billionaires, whether it be billionaires in media or tech, or you know, in politics.

it makes you feel really powerless.

And I can see that a lot of people have become deeply disillusioned and very depressed and feeling like there is no hope.

There is nothing that we can do At the same time.

I Do feel like when things get so bad, there is this inevitability that actually the entire world is impacted.

And so there is no other choice but to revolt, And I'm starting to see things like that bubble to the surface.

And I do feel like you.

were Talking about, you know, Zach Polanski's messaging campaign, not mentioning climate.

I think it's very smart to talk about the 1%.

I think that is deeply intentional and is a really clever unifying tactic.

because there are so much more of us than of them.

Yeah.

And the billionaires are the ones who are driving us off the cliff edge as well.

They're Financial, Um, investments, assets, their wealth as a whole is directly tied.

To some of the most polluting industries on the planet.

So by saying we need to, either tax the super rich or, you know, hold them to account, that's climate action in and of itself.

We don't have to label it as such.

Um, And the interesting thing is that when you talk to So-called everyday people who might seem against the climate movement, The people who criticize like just up oil activists for throwing, soup.

you actually talk to them, they care about exactly the.

same things that We do.

they want a good life for themselves and their families.

A lot of them have unfortunately been preyed upon by the super rich fed narratives and being manipulated and pitted against other minorities thinking that this is the way out.

Um, scapegoating is such a powerful tactic and tool, so I'm not Surprised that unfortunately a lot of very vulnerable people have been manipulated and have been sort of, you know, commandeer to campaign and fight against people who are Enduring just as bad hardships as them.

Um, it's Sad.

It's very sad, But you know, I think that tactic of kind of unifying against the super rich is probably our best chance at this rate.

Sean Adams: What are the solutions that the average person listening to this can actually do?

Like sure.

And I was thinking about that when I was going through the, questions.

It's like We've been tackling, um, Spotify's royalties for ages.

Mm-hmm.

We've just been going after like the amount of people that have left Spotify now that they are.

Running ice adverts mm-hmm.

and putting their, um, money into AI wardrobes Oh God.

and suddenly Artists are engaging Mm-hmm.

They're like, the no Music for genocide campaign.

Yeah.

Artists are engaging.

Yeah.

artists that have been completely silent for the last three years Yeah.

Have all been engaging.

Yeah.

So I think that.

like you said, like it does feel like the simmering is now starting to come to the boil.

Yeah.

Tori Tsui: Yeah.

Sean Adams: We're gonna do a series in January about music and resilience Mm.

And I'd be interested for you and for other people, you know, the role of music plays

Tori Tsui: Mm.

in

Sean Adams: resilience in

Tori Tsui: Yeah.

Sean Adams: finding the space that you do need to escape.

Tori Tsui: Sure.

Sean Adams: Like how important a role does music play?

play for you?

Tori Tsui: Oh my gosh, I, I mean, it's like asking me how important oxygen is to, my livelihood.

Music is so important I feel like not only from a point of escapism, but just joy in bringing people together.

Everyone knows that feeling of like being in a room full of people who are all there to see this one artist, and there's that one song that everyone knows and they feel so connected and so moved and for me, That translates even further when I think about artists who are taking a stand for the world that I want to live in.

I remember when, um, Billie came to the uk, I think it was two summers ago now, and she did like this really small surprise set at the electric ballroom in Camden, and she was like, oh my God, I haven't done a small show years 'cause it's been 10 years since Ocean Ice came out.

and and that's kind of what propelled her to Start him at 13.

And

Sean Adams: also 'cause of lockdown.

She sort of bypassed playing a lot of those smaller shows.

She got so big so quick.

Tori Tsui: Yeah, exactly.

And she was doing this really small show.

and all of the fans in the audience were just mesmerized, you know, and just so entranced by her every word, and everything that she was saying.

And I was like, that's what it's about.

Like that's how you use your fandom responsibly because there are so many.

People who Would literally do anything for the artists that they love.

And I'm like, how great is it that we have an artist who really stands on the right side of history and really tries to use their platform in and outside of their music?

, so I remember that feeling and I remember thinking, oh yeah, this is the sector I wanna work in 'cause just look how compelled and move these people are.

And I felt that as a fan of, Billie's and also a consumer of music, like also being neurodivergent so much.

of The way that music moves through me is deeply, deeply emotional and powerful.

And it can literally be the difference between me having a bad day and having a great day, or me feeling like kind of a bit numb and, then feel so emotional and compelled and, compassionate about, um, yeah, the piece that I'm listening to.

So yeah, music is a huge part of my life.

It always has been.

And that's a really funny thing is I remember when I was younger and I grew up in Hong Kong, I kind of started doing like.

freelance work for this one production company that would bring indie acts to um, Eastern, Southeast Asia.

Mm-hmm.

And I remember thinking at that point, I wanna work in music.

And then that kind of fell to the sidelines and I was like, well, I'm working climate now.

I don't know if that's ever a thing that can combine.

And lo and behold here I am.

I'm like, oh, this feels like coming back home to myself in a weird way.

, Sean Adams: that really leads into my next question 'cause here we are, we're at Earth, Sonic Live.

Yeah.

It's a takeover of the Natural History Museum in Manchester.

The Manchester, Museum And music is right at the core of what this event is.

And I'm curious, like you've, you've been on stage, you've spoken a couple of things, today.

Mm-hmm.

like events like this are kind of rare where it's like climate talks Yeah.

And live performances underneath the skeleton of a whale.

Yeah.

Um, do you think that that's, there should be more of that like at festivals and.

like And all the different Yeah, like, and also you were saying earlier about how the joy of music when you were talking like how the like parties are much better.

Yeah.

Like as some of the climate events, are they needing DJs and bands?

Tori Tsui: They really are.

They really are.

A good friend of mine, and fellow climate activists, Dominique Palmer always says, I don't wanna be part of your revolution.

if I can't dance.

And I really love that.

that saying, because I think that taps into the necessity of.

joy, not only as, you know, um, a motivator to continue campaigning, but just part of our humanity.

And I think that one of the biggest shortcomings of large movements is that they don't have enough street parties.

They don't have enough festivals and music and dance and art imbued into their existence.

Um, and I think that's a huge disservice because it's just a great unifier.

It's a great way of bringing people together.

It makes people feel, and I think feeling.

Is what motivates change and without care and connection, why bother, you know?

So music for me is, is everything.

And, um, I think going down this route of bringing music and climate action together.

and it doesn't even have to, just be climate action as it's colloquially known, is something that, um, makes me feel at home because I felt for so long that these, these worlds didn't intersect, or that they didn't belong together.

And and now that I get to do this kind of work, I'm like, oh yeah, this is possible.

This is, this is where real change for me begins.

Sean Adams: So I'll do very quick five final two questions.

Tori Tsui: Mm.

Sean Adams: One, carbon credits Oh God.

a bit of A nonsense from what I can tell.

Yeah, Yeah, there was a study.

the Guardian did 94% of rainforest carbon credits, certified by Vera.

Mm-hmm.

, they're the world's leading.

certifier.

Tori Tsui: Yeah.

Sean Adams: Um, what called phantom credits.

Yeah.

They don't represent real climate benefits.

Mm-hmm.

Yet, Spotify, shell, Disney and all these people buy them like greenwash and I think like Taylor Swift bought loads of carbon credits to offset her tour and

Tori Tsui: Yeah.

Sean Adams: what?

what?

should people be doing instead?

I mean, obviously.

not using the carbon in the first place, I'm guessing, but

Tori Tsui: I mean, I liken carbon credits to a get out of jail Free your card.

It doesn't actually mean that you haven't committed the felony that has put you in jail in the first place.

It doesn't erase your past.

Um, I think that so much of what is out there, technological solutions, uh.

tree planting.

schemes.

I was waiting.

If you just

Sean Adams: suddenly start talking about techno, then

Tori Tsui: Oh yeah.

Techno, It's all bogus.

I mean, and it's just a form of like green colonialism, 'cause What you find.

is It's often the richest countries and people who have historically, um, committed oppression, uh, against people in the global south who are, say, buying up pieces their, of their land to plant, plant non-native trees on, uh, land where those things won't thrive and they'll just die.

I mean, it's just an excuse for them to keep polluting as normal, but that's not actually getting to the crux of the matter.

It's not a solution.

It's just like the equivalent of.

mopping up the floor when the bath is overflowing instead of turning it off at the taps.

, it seems

Sean Adams: a bit like going into confession.

booth.

It's like you're not gonna undo your crime by confessing.

to

Tori Tsui: it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and, and also it, just, it what it does is it creates a social license for these big polluters to just keep doing business as usual.

So much of, um, the investment that fossil fuel companies make into so-called green solutions or these technological solutions.

like, oh gosh, you know, whether it's carbon sequestration and absorbing carbon from the atmosphere, They're not actually doing it for the benefit of.

the planet, they're doing it to buy themselves more time and to make themselves seem more noble.

Um, and that they're on the right side of the transition, when they're not because they're not investing in renewables and they, they invest in like these green energy solutions that actually they end up withdrawing from.

I think like Shell invested in this like algae energy solution.

And then they pulled all their funding out of it 'cause it just was no longer relevant to them.

So yeah, I'm not a fan of these kinds of things.

Sean Adams: So if music fans are listening to this and musicians and they want to improve parts of the music ecosystem and also use music to speak either as an example or as a tool to kind of hold the rest of the world accountable, what does the transition look like?

I mean, we've got Mad man in, in as a president in America's talking about windmills.

Um, but like I've seen like certain days in Scotland, like completely empowered, completely powered by wind.

Yeah.

So, cool.

And it's like you see these like tidal projects and like that's energy all day.

Yeah.

Every day the tide goes in and out every day.

you're gonna get energy from there.

Like What What should people be pushing for?

Because obviously data centers mm-hmm.

are a big.

issue.

Like they use a lot of water.

Tori Tsui: Sure.

Sean Adams: In Ireland they've, um, 'cause it's a tax haven for a lot of companies, yeah.

They were using up more energy than all of the homes.

in some areas.

Yeah.

And it's like You'd imagine those very activated, um, political voices in the music scene in Ireland would start to speak up about that.

Like what should people be speaking up for?

I guess that's probably, I know that's a very big question.

Yeah, that's a lot.

Tori Tsui: I mean, it kind of goes back to what.

we were speaking about before, Which is what's personal to you?

Um, is there a particular issue that you are very passionate about and care a lot about, and how do you kind of tie that into the broader issues that exist within society?

That's what I would kind of say to people working in music, whether that's, you know, I wanna, protect this certain species that I really care about or this particular habitat, or I absolutely hate the impacts of environmental.

racism on a community I grew up in, or you know, the rise of authoritarianism and fascism is deeply impacting my community.

I wanna campaign against that.

It's all connected and I think that the sooner we realize that everything is connected, I'm less inclined to tell people what to campaign for, instead just ask them to campaign about something Um, that feeds into the wider issues in society.

I would also, because I'm biased, I obviously Work in the climate space, I would tell people to endorse the fossil fuel treaty.

I genuinely think that's our best way out of this mess.

Like, I'm not even just saying that because I work with them There is a reason I work with them Yeah.

because I genuinely believe in what they're doing and I feel like, but not

Sean Adams: short of offers are people that want to work with you.

Tori Tsui: Yeah.

Yeah.

I I mean it's, it's a phenomenal solution and it's grounded in justice and it is deeply intersectional and it has shown that we can work.

with the arts.

I mean, we've worked with Massive Attack.

We can work with so many other artists, big or small, who want to create that change.

I mean, we literally have our own, um, musical project called, this is Our Home Project, and they're from small island states in the Pacific.

And.

They're literally scouted by Chris Martin because they came to.

Brian Eno Studio one day Brian sent a video of them to Chris Martin and then they toured all around Australia and New Zealand with Chris kind of promoting their music, which is rooted in, um, storytelling and being one with the environments that they grew up in and about preserving culture and heritage.

and and it just goes to show it can be done.

So, yeah.

I just tell people to endorse the fossil fuel, treat and work with us basically.

Sean Adams: It can be done.

Tori Tsui: It can be done.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

It

Sean Adams: feels like the final word.

Yeah.

Thank you so much for your time.

Tori Tsui: It be, thank you.

Um,

Sean Adams: if people want to follow you and your Oracle like knowledge, whereabouts would you recommend they go?

Uh,

Tori Tsui: well, I guess you could say I most active on Instagram, um, at Tori Tsui, so that's T-O-R-I-T-S-U-I.

under

Tori Tsui: I always forget there's an underscore.

I don't know why because at Tori Tsui doesn't even exist as a username, but I can't change it.

Yeah.

So I have a random underscore.

Um, but I would also implore people to follow at Fossil Fuel Treaty 'cause there's some really, really important climate information we share and also campaigns and yeah, it's uh, for lack of a better word, gives you a lot of hope.

Hope

Sean Adams: that's the last word.

Yeah.