Welcome back to Owned and Operated. I'm your host, John Wilson. Today on the show I am joined by Ken Goodrich. Ken, welcome to the show. 

Thanks for having me, John. 

Yeah, this will be, uh, this will be a lot of fun. It's, it's good to have you on here. I'm excited. We're gonna be talking, uh, some ghetto. We're gonna be talking Kenner Raider, uh, and I'm excited to just sort of hear about what you're up to into the industry these days.

Obviously, you're, you're an og, you've helped build the industry into what it's today, so I'm glad to have you on. 

Well, uh, happy to share my, uh, my experience and stories and, um, you know, I just, I've, I've made that kind of a habit throughout my, uh, throughout my journey and my career, just as a forum to give back.

And actually, you know, kind of like what you said earlier, like, I help a lot of people because I always get some pickups and gems along the road too. 

Mm-hmm. I, I was, uh. I was reading, uh, the e this was a decade ago, but the E Myth revisited for contractors. Mm-hmm. I think you're a sub author in that. When did that happen?

So, I'm a, I'm a a, a sub author for the E Myth HVAC contractor with Michael Gerber. Yeah. We published that in 2019 and I'm, uh, we'll publish the E-Myth plumber in January. You know, it's ready Oh, really? 

Come 

out Uhhuh. And then just shortly after that, we'll, we'll come out with the E-Myth electrician. So I've been, oh, that's, I've been busy with Michael Gerber for a long time.

Yeah. You know, 

we can get into the kind of the, the origin story of everything, but I'll, I'll kind of skip over some po points to say this. You know, I got out, I bought my first business when I was 25. And I was at AC Tech, learned from my dad, you know, holding a flashlight at age 10. Mm-hmm. And worked every night, weekend and summer in, uh, on the Rosa of Las Vegas, repairing and installing air conditioner.

So, you know, I got, got started pretty young, bought my first business at 25 and probably like most everybody else, I, you know, I knew how to repair 'em and I knew how to kind of sell 'em and, you know, do the work. And so I was gonna go be a businessman. And then, you know, it took me about two years to figure out that, you know, I didn't know what I didn't know, and I didn't know the business of hvac.

And through some trials and tribulations, I was able to get this E-Myth book, the E-Myth Revisited by Michael Gerber. And, you know, without going into all the gory details, you know, uh, a friend of mine had given me this book. It was sitting on my desk. I hadn't looked at it for a couple months. It was sitting on my desk and after the IRS came in and garnished my bank accounts and took half my trucks and all my employees quit that Friday, I sat down at my desk and I saw the cover that said why most small businesses don't work and what to do about it.

And I said, well, this seems fortuitous. This thing's sitting on my desk. So I got the book and I started to read it and you know, I'm thinking, man, this guy Michael Gerber, he's been hiding the bushes. 'cause how does he know Every stupid thing that I, that I've been doing this whole time. But it really, I, I, I really got it, you know, the way he wrote, I really understood the concept of a prototype business system and, and what processes are, and, you know, really how to, you know, how to, uh, innovate and quantify and, and all the pieces and parts to build a business system.

And that resonated with me. So I was able to put a business system together. But, you know, so Michael Gerber was my original mentor back in, uh, 1988. And, um, he didn't know it. And then sometime, I think it was about two four, 2014, I meet him at a ACA convention and I tell him my story and, uh, he said, well, why don't you write the E-Myth HVAC book with me?

And so it was kinda like, uh, okay, I got to, I got to meet my mentor and I got to, uh, you know. Write a book with them. So kind of came full circle from that journey. But that's how I got to Michael Gerber. And then, you know, we've, we've been in the plumbing end, uh, electrical businesses, well, we started in hvac, but uh, so that's one wrap up these two other books.

Yeah, that's, that's a, that is a fun way to get there. I, I was, I was, uh, I was thinking about this because it, you know, I, I got started in the industry, uh, like I grew up in it same as you. And I was trying to explain to someone that was newer to the industry, and I've been in it for, you know, like 20 years.

And I was trying to explain to someone that the amount of content that's created now to help people build their business like that wasn't a thing a decade ago. And, you know, there, there was, uh, HVAC spells, wealth. Which was really formative for me. Uh, that was a really important book for me. Uh, I don't remember when Tommy's first book came out, home Service Millionaire.

It was like a wealthy plumber book on Amazon back in 2010. And, uh, and then, uh, EE Revisited, um, but since 2020, so, you know, obviously including us, a a lot of folks have started to explain it. So, um, but yeah, it, I think the addition to the industry is awesome. I'm, I'm just grateful that you, you've shared, I think it's been really cool and I think it's awesome that you've been jumping on a lot of shows and sharing the story.

It's been helpful. 

Yeah. Thank you. Well, you know, when I was struggling, you know, I go back to the struggle days. I, uh, I get a trade magazine and I'm looking in the back and it has an ad for an ACA convention in San Antonio. And I'm, I'm like, how much money do I have? And I think I took my like last 700 bucks or something and got a plane ticket and signed up and went out there.

And you know, again, this is all before the computers, before the internet. I mean, there was computers really, but not the internet and not the access to all this information. And at that time, ACA was really, it. It was the only kind of resource you had. And that particular resource leaned more on the technical side of the business.

But still, you know, I went to the convention and I got to meet some older dudes that were, you know, seemed to have it going on. And I start talking to 'em and, and they started sharing and, you know, gave me a little more, more confidence, gave me some tips, you know, and I started, you know, forming myself in the industry and with that community first.

I gotta say, that's where I probably over the years have learned the most, is being at these various conventions and being intentional about being there to learn, really understanding what am I gonna, what, you know, what's my goals? What am I gonna come away with at this convention? You know, not just bullshitting at the bar at the end of the end of the day, but just, you know, I got a mission here.

I'm gonna learn these things. I'm gonna meet these people. I'm gonna get this vendor tied up and make purpose out of it. And so, throughout my journey, it's just been a regular practice to, you know, be involved, share, you know, share my best practices, uh, as a, as a means of currency to get other people to share their best practices so we can all mm-hmm.

Grow and, and take us to the next level. 

Yeah. The thing that you've, you're obviously known for, uh, in the industry is you built Ghetto, which is one of the largest home service brands in the us. Uh, I think I might get some numbers here wrong, but I think you took it in 20 IT organization and you roughly 20 that over the course of a decade or so, that

hard work in your life. But is that roughly right? 

Yeah, I, I bought Gettel, uh, in, um, January of 2013. 

Okay. 

And it was, at that time it was a struggling business. It was doing 11 million in sales, losing 3 million, and it had just been through some really bad, uh, uh, reputation issues, this and that. But, you know, you know, I talk about holding the flashlight for my dad.

Well, uh, the reason why I had to do GETTEL was because the first air conditioner I ever lit up with my flashlight when I was 10. Was a gto 'cause they used to manufacture. And my dad said, this is the finest machine ever made. And my dad became a ghetto dealer. So I'm a kid. My dad's telling me the ghettos are the best air conditioners made.

They were bulletproof, they were, you know, they were designed in the desert. So they were designed at 115 degree ambient, uh, for 115 degree ambient. And, um, you know, I grew up all with Gettel and then, uh mm-hmm. You know, my dad passed away when I was younger and I started, I still lean on Gettel and they were a big vendor for many, many years for me.

So when I, when the opportunity came to buy it, and they had a big service company is what I bought. But when the opportunity came to buy it, I just felt like it was my duty to do that. And by the way, they hold the first patents for the invention of the residential air conditioner. So I'm thinking Oh, 

interesting.

Well, they. They invented the, the air conditioner. How can I screw that up? So I went and I took it. It was, it was struggling, you know, it was struggling bad. I right sized the business. I put the processes in, and then I found a world class copyright, uh, Roy Williams, the Wizard of ads. And, you know, through a long process of trying to convince him to work with me.

Once I got that done, we created a, a brand story that was, had been really second to none in the industry and took it to where it went. But, you know, from 2013 to 2020, um, we went from 11 million losing three to 250 million with le 11 locations, uh, um, um, and over a thousand employees. 

Yeah. That's incredible.

And you're, you're currently not in well. Before I go into currently, uh, I, I had been, uh, I was in Phoenix three or four years ago and, uh, I was really blessed, uh, you weren't there, but I was introduced to, uh, Dale and I was blessed to be given a tour of the facility. And we designed a lot of, so I, I've learned from you a lot even though we haven't met in person.

Um, we've designed a lot of our call by call process back in 2022 based off of what you guys were doing, you know, four or five years ago at this point. Uh, but it was really formative for us. It was very helpful. Uh, and that was, yeah, that was in the early 2020s, so, uh, thank you. And it was, it was a, it was a hell of a thing to walk through there, you know, back in 2022 as well, so like, really like peak COVID and you know, the place was just absolutely bumping, which was awesome.

It was incredible to see. It was really inspirational. 

Yeah. Yeah. We built quite a dynamic business there. Um, I've sold the majority interest in it. I'm on the board currently. Yeah. Um, but yeah, we built something, but it was, you know, it was kind of my opus. Mm-hmm. I've done, you know, that was my sixth bi big business.

I built in the HVAC space and sold HVAC and plumbing my sixth one. Really? Yeah. And so I don't, 

I don't think I knew that, uh, that is, that is interesting. 

Yeah. Yeah. So I built and sold six companies to either strategics, like a RS Okay. Or to private equity over the years. Um, 

was that always the plan with ghetto was, uh, I mean it sounds like it probably was 'cause it was your sixth one, so you had a sort of a roadmap of, Hey, I'm gonna build this and then transact at some point.

I, I know for folks like me, that's, uh. This is our first one. So I think for us, that journey is starting to come where it's like, okay, I think we'll have to bring on money at some point. Uh, but when I set out, I didn't have it in mind that it would be in the exit. So how did you think about that from the get go?

Well, you know, I had been in it all my, all my life. I, I bought the, bought a business when I was 25. I started going, like I said, a couple years in, I got, you know, I, I got notified by the IRS, I didn't pay my payroll taxes. And I said to the IRS the, uh, agent, I said, what's payroll taxes? 'cause I was so green, I didn't even know.

And, you know, that kind of sent me on the journey. And so I made a business plan at that point, because at that point,

you know, you, it, it, I was in a really tough situation. But I really couldn't get out of it because, you know, you can't discharge payroll taxes and bankruptcy if you went bankrupt, for instance, and you can't. And I owed people money that, that I bought the business from. And so I was like, okay, well I can't be the stews that just fails in two years, so I have to gut this out and figure it out.

So I wrote a plan and the plan was like, okay, I gotta get through this. I'm gonna get through this and I'm gonna build a business and I'm gonna sell it. And I made the plan of what you have to do to sell it. You gotta have a management team, you have to have some steady revenues and profits, things like that.

And then I said, now I was a young guy, like I was 26 or something. I said, I'm gonna sell it for $1 million. You know, that was my goal. $1 million. $1 million. And, uh. I thought that was all the money in the world. But anyway, so I end up, you know, we put it together and, you know, I figure out, I, I create my E-Myth system, and then I start buying either broken bankrupt, well broken breakup, uh, or uh, uh, HVAC businesses.

Uh, businesses where the guys are retiring, guys retiring or struggling. Even old phone numbers from, uh, you know, from companies that shut down are gonna shut down. I'd gather up these phone numbers and I put 'em into the mix, and I started scaling my business by buying these inexpensive, broken businesses.

And, and I became good at it because I had fixed my own business and I figured out what the process is to, to build a business system, and I documented it and I, and so it was easy for me to just, to go ahead and start organizing these companies and putting the routines in. So I had the plan to sell, and then I started building them up.

And I got to where I had three locations when I was about 30 years old in Las Vegas. And that's when a RS, uh, are you familiar with a RS American Residential Services? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that's when a RS was born. And, um, they came to me and said, Hey, why, you know, why don't you join our, join, uh, our rollup?

You can be a founding member. And so, you know, I was one of the, I don't know, five, six guys who got it started and then we built it and I got, at that point, the business was worth a lot more than $1 million. I think I got, you know, maybe five, six times that. But, um, I went out and I executed my plan. So I was in, I'm in my early thirties and I sell the business to a RS and I'm in that.

World for a while. And, uh, so I had hit my goal. I wanted to build it and sell it and go figure out something else to do. 'cause I hadn't done anything else all my life. I thought maybe I wanted to be a, you know, stockbroker or something cool where you wore a suit and you know, that kind of life. 

Mm-hmm. 

But when I got into, when I, when a RS bought us, I got into, I was very fortunate that I was able to get involved with these guys who knew a lot more than I did about business and a bigger scale business.

By that time, I knew how to build a HVAC business system and a nice, uh, high performing business, but I really didn't understand how to do multi-branch very well and, and, uh, m and a very well. And, you know, real m and a not just buying broken stuff. Right. And so I worked there for a few years and I got a really good education there.

And so I said, you know what, I'd really enjoy this. I enjoy now because I'd be traveling around doing acquisitions and I'd see guys who did a lot better than I did. And I'm like, oh, I could have done that. Oh, I could have done that. I should have done that. 

Mm-hmm. 

And so it re-inspired me. So I decided back in, uh, 2000 to do it again.

So I decided at that point, I'm in the business building business. I'm not in the HVAC point business. I build businesses and I sell them. 'cause I kind of like this whole deal where you, you know, you sprint for three, four or five years and then you sell it for 10, 15 years of profits. A nice little chunk of money.

Right. And I liked just, I just liked the idea of kind of being my own private equity shop. So that's what I did. And so I did the, mm-hmm. The first one, did the second one in Vegas and Phoenix. Called Yes, air conditioning, plumbing and mm-hmm. You know, various ones along the, along the way.

And at one point, yeah, one point, uh, after I sold yes to, um, a RSI was a, uh, I was a regional VP or a division vp, they called it. And they gave, uh, my team and I have seven businesses to fix for them, and a big reward for that. So, you know, we put the team together and we just executed, just execute my plan on building a business system, get it implemented, get the right team in place, get 'em focused, and start driving results.

So then I became the president of a RS for a while. So I was the president of this national company, you know. I'm a guy kid, started in a AC van fixing air conditioners. Now I'm the president of this, you know, $600 million business, national business and, uh, you know, learned a lot more. I, you know, every time I had these opportunities to get with these bigger guys, I really picked up some new knowledge that, you know, most of us from the industry, like yourself who, who no different than me.

You, you know, you came from a family business, you're just not, you're just not gonna be able to experience it. Yeah. 

So I did that. Yeah. My, my hope you're describing what I hoped my post life, my post exit life would look like. Where, how, how do I, you know, yeah, the money's great, but like how can you learn something interesting that, like, when would be another chance you'd get to go work somewhere with 200 locations?

How, how else do you get that? So, yeah, that sounds like amazing. That sounds like what I hope my post exit life looks like. Yeah. Learn, you know, get paid to learn somewhere for five years and then go do it again. That sounds like fun. 

Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's all I've been done doing. And then, uh, and so on this last deal with Gettel, we, we really rung the bell in a big way.

You know, we had a very, you know, industry leading exit. Yeah. Um, and then I said, well, what's next? But I, you know, I had this team, this, this business, you know, this business development team that I've created over the years. Who knows, you know, we, you know. We attack leadership management, money, marketing, lead generation, lead conversion, client fulfillment.

We attack client fulfillment, we attack every chunk of the business right there. We get the processes documented, get into training, start training our people, start recruiting the team, getting the financial, uh, understanding of the operation and, and keep going. So anyway, I sold the business in 21 and then I, uh, was stayed as a CEO for 22.

Uh, and then it was a plan, me plan retirement from hvac. So they brought in their new CEO and then I went off and my team and I, we started attacking the standby generator industry. So I've been in that for end of the year. End of the year will be two years. So it's two years now. And we've had, uh, we put together four locations, uh, Dallas, Houston, Tampa, and uh, South Carolina.

And, um, yeah, we're off to the races. We acquired 14 million in revenue and we'll wrap up about 50 million with the same store growth this year. 

So is each, is there a Goliath store or are they roughly equal? 50 million of generators is a lot. 

I know 

that's a lot of generators. 

Yeah. Um, well obviously our two big stores are, uh, are, are Houston, you know, Houston's the number one, uh, standby market in the country.

And then, um, and then Tampa is our second, but 

as you're, as you're thinking about this, so your ghetto was your sixth, uh, industry leading exit. Um, as you're thinking about. And, and your whole life was sort of this HVAC building and selling HVAC businesses, maybe like a flare plumbing in there too. But, but there was always like a buyer, like, because you knew the buying landscape.

How do you think about that for standby generators? 'cause it doesn't seem like the buying, I just don't know. So I'm looking for education, but it doesn't seem like the buying landscape is as straightforward as HVAC 

or, 

or 

is it? Well, it's, 

well look, PE is all over Main Street. Every, every business there is, you know, they're looking for opportunities and, and yes, they're there.

I I, I can't help but think that, um, you know, when I got in, when I got into generators last year, there was one PE shop that had a meaningful business. They had rolled up, was starting to roll up. And it's a nice, they have a really nice thing going, but as soon as I got in and started talking about it, um.

And I don't know if this is because I was talking about it or because just, uh, the natural things have happened, but, uh, there's been a lot more PE involvement. So there's a lot more com, uh, competition for the businesses, um, in the generator space today. I would say probably there's five, six PE shops sniffing around it.

And then I get calls every single day from other PE shops that wanna partner and see how they can get involved with it. But I wanna get it, you know, we're gonna get a little bit beefier. 

Yeah. Yeah. That's really gonna be my next line of questions. You know, you've built a process, now you're in the business of building businesses.

I think that makes a ton of sense. Most of my peers in the industry that are still privately held. I think including myself, there's a lot of question marks on, you know, what's the right time to do something? Like I, I'm in one of these conversations once a week, you know, with somebody, and, and I don't know the answer either.

So usually I'm a participant. Uh, but it, as you're in this process and is your building, uh, generator, like who, what, when do you think are the right thresholds to bring on a partner or to exit or to whatever that looks like? Is it 10, 20, 30, or like measured by ebitda? Like how are you thinking about that?

Well, I would say, you know, in, in its simplest form, you, you would do something like that. Like, I've never done it just to, to bring on capital, you know, I've done it to, you know, uh, you know, de-risk. Take some of the chips off the table. Mm-hmm. At, at the end of the day, I think it's about, you gotta get it.

You, you have to get it big enough, especially like a young guy like you. Like you gotta get it big enough. So your first take is chunky enough that, you know, you don't just have to go right back to work. You know, you can make some new plans with your life. Uh, you can go do another business, you can do, you know, or you can just completely retire.

But I wouldn't, if you had a nice cash flowing business, and obviously you, if you build a business that is desirable and people want to buy, it's gonna be a nice cash flowing business, you know, and you really don't ha and you, uh, and you really don't have a motive to exit either. A, it is time. BI, you know, the money's too good.

I gotta get out and I can do other things with it. I can invest it and something simpler like real estate or, you know. Whatever. Um, I wouldn't do it till you can have some meaningful capital. It makes meaningful capital out of it because, you know, these kind, our kinds of businesses are pretty, uh, sturdy.

They're not going away. They're kind of AI proof in terms of the labor, I think, or robot proof. So that's a, a big plus. Um, it's a nice cash flowing business to own. So I hope I asked your answer. Your question is, you gotta make sure that you get it big enough to make enough money to really have some choices in life.

And I'm not talking, you know, uh, I'm not talking, you know, you make 7 million bucks and then you pay off your house and then you blow a couple million bucks on big living. Now you got, you're down to a few million bucks and they're like, holy shit, I gotta go back to work now. 

Mm-hmm. 

Don't do that. I know a lot of guys have done that, and I, and I'll say this.

A lot of guys have done this because they just want relief. They want relief from the hell of running a business and that, you know, that sounds good. The little break, that's also an option too, but me personally, who've done it a number of times, make sure that every chunk can materially change your life and give you a lot more choices in life before you get rid of your, get rid of the goose that lays the golden eggs for you.

Yeah, I think that makes sense. Another thing is we've been pretty stubborn and I think the goal where I was, what I was trying to understand is, is is there, so we're at like 4 million of EBITDA this year and next year we're anticipating seven. We're doing some like add on acquisitions. And I'm wondering is, is there a point, and maybe it's 10 million Eva, maybe it's 20.

Like I'm sure there's people that have bootstrapped their way up to it. Uh, but is there a point where like the incremental million of EBITDA isn't worth the energy and you should just like partner with somebody? Uh, and I think that that was the question is like, I agree with you, if you're at a million, you should just keep going if you're at 10.

Like, okay. Is that the moment? 

Well, lemme tell you that. So the ghetto story, um, um, once we got to. First of all, let me say this, 20 to 25 million EBITDA is the sweet spot. If you can get to that, you're gonna get higher multiples. You're gonna have bigger, bigger, bigger, uh, funds wanting to participate.

That's typical, pay more, better financially backed, all that stuff. So that's really what you gotta head towards 20 to 25, uh, and 25 is better, obviously, and that's where you'll start to get, uh, you know, mid-teens kind of numbers, right? So that's, I think that should be your target, especially because it sounds like you're on a, a great trajectory anyway.

I mean, 4 million EBITDA is a great living, right? Mm-hmm. It's a really nice living. So, uh, I just say keep your head, head down and keep going. And then, you know, I don't know if you're in a best practice group, but I, I recommend everybody be in a best practice group. Um, or several, you know, the top guys that we've all ran around together for all these decades.

Um, you know, Dave Geiger, Leland Smith, and even Ron Smith. You mentioned Ron Smith, his book. 

Yep. 

Um, um, you know, they all were in, we all were in two or three best practice groups, and it's just to, you know, understand new, new business processes, how to get it implemented. The, the network of other contractors that you get to lean on and talk to and share ideas is priceless, but that's where, like where you're at now, scaling that can really help.

And then I'll say this with Gettel. So we got up to. We, I got it up to 7 million in EBITDA in 2018. And, um, we took a PE partner then. And the reason why, because I, I started to get to some, I started seeing that the thing was gonna get to some bigger numbers that I, that I hadn't been there yet. And I wanted some, frankly some smarter partners to kind of guide financially this is where we're gonna have to start to be, use some debt, uh, to, to grow faster.

Some more sophisticated m and a process, things like that. And so I went with a small family office called Bomb Capital outta Kansas City. And I did that 'cause I just liked the guys. They were very sharp. Uh, they were, you know, they had everybody's best interest. At heart. And, um, and they had a, they had a clean plan.

It wasn't some pie in the sky, you know, this and that. We're gonna buy a hundred businesses, this and that. We had a clean plan. And so those guys really helped me execute well. So if you can find situations like that where they're not, you know, they're not micromanaging, they're not armchair quarterbacking every single day, second guessing, trying to change everything, you know, and they're not doing that.

Uh, and they're, they're sitting back and kind of giving you a lot of rope and, and a lot of counsel and working on things that make that help the business that you never knew you could do or you never wanted to do it. Like insurance renewals every year. And they really drill at 'em and they actually save a lot of money that I never paid a lot of attention to personally, you know?

Yeah, I hope I'm not answering your questions, but 

No, I, no, I think so. I think it was, sorry, it was a bit tactical. Um, yeah, I, I think it's a common question, uh, of, you know, when, when is the right moment. I think you're right. Most people do it way too early. Like they hit the minimum potential value and then they exit to take a break or, or whatever.

Um, 

and I know why. Yeah, because they have their management system set up and they're just mm-hmm. 

You 

know, they're, they're, you know, sticking their thumb in the dyke in the leaks every single day, rather than having a good clean business process and a team running the business. 

Yeah. I'm gonna ask, this is gonna be like a very general, probably a layup question, but I mean, what are the management system like, what are the big couple points on building that management system to plug those holes that, that you found?

Because I, I think you're right. I think that is the big issue. People are tired of fi firefighting every day. 

Yeah. You, you, uh, you have to have a management system. And I didn't understand this. I didn't understand this until, you know, I don't know, maybe 20 years ago, but once I understood you gotta have a management system.

There's a bunch of them you can follow. There's traction EOS, right? There's uh mm-hmm. Rockefeller Habits. We happened to land on a company called Map Management Action Programs in, um, Newport Beach, California. 'cause they were close. And I had, and I had had some employees that had gone through their coursework before and they were just the best managers, you know, hands down because they were taught the skill of management, right?

They were taught how to manage people. You know, most of us who came in the industry, we probably managed like the last dip shit who managed us, who didn't know how to manage. Right. And so, 

yeah. 

Uh, they taught a management system and a routine that has to go on every single day. Starting with morning check, uh, huddles and making sure everyone's heading in the right what direction.

And, you know, the, the, um, um, the metrics and, and how you move the measure your performance and how everybody measures their performance. Basic management functions, supervision functions, leadership functions, you know, they really teach you that. And then they have a routine where monthly they come in and they have what they call vital factors, meetings and, and the vital factors meetings.

They have a facilitator that you can hire no different than like EOS. You familiar with EOS? 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

We've been e os for a decade. 

Okay. So. You know, then, you know, the routine, everybody should have be in a best practice group and be operating with a management system. Mm-hmm. Whether it be, like I said, EOS, Rockefeller Habits Map or any number of other ones.

And so once we got that down and we got the routine around the, the management of all this, then we use MAP as our, you know, training ground. You know, we, they would teach, like you'd take a, a, a really good technician that you wanted to start learning the, uh, subtleties of supervision. You, you send 'em there.

Mm-hmm. 

How early did you develop your own in internal? Because I would imagine that at some point fairly early, you had to take a lot of those practices and pair it with the things that made you guys, you and develop your own leadership program.

I would say that over the years, you know, you know, once I started getting into the multi-branch stuff, which was in the late nineties, um, you know, you gotta have a whole different mindset, right? Because now I have people running businesses that are 400 miles away. And so you had to have management team.

And so I'm a numbers guy and so I kind of made it about the numbers, right? So we had a, we, we created a set of metrics that are measured, um, uh, measured from, you know, number of call, you know, the call goal for the day to all the things that can happen and the average tickets that go on, and what levers to pull this, that break up between service and maintenance.

And we had a system, right? And so, you know, our routine was, was based on that, where we would have twice a week meetings, phone calls, and we just go over the numbers. You know, how many calls, how many, where are you supposed to be at for the month? I'm supposed to be at 212 calls. I'm at, I'm at 206. Where's the six calls?

I haven't got 'em. You, you, you're gonna tell me that you, you, you, uh, you booked a hundred percent. No. Well, where's the six calls? Go get those six calls. You know, it's that kind of routine. And then my conversion to, my conversion to, uh, service, for instance, uh, is, is this much revenue, this much average ticket.

The average ticket goes, you know, I'm just making up numbers here. Eight 50. Yeah. Uh, and you're at 600. Why? What are we gonna do about it? What's the cause and effect? Everybody's comradery. They're, they're saying, do this, try that. You know, and it just kind of builds this routine amongst the management team.

But that's how I started with the numbers. As I got a little more, more. Taught and sophisticated with it. You know, we talked a lot about a lot more things like, you know, HR related things, company culture, all that. But the fundamental of the business that works really well is keeping the numbers you talked about, call by call management.

You know, everyone's hot and heavy with call by call management, but I, I remember when call by call management was invented 'cause it was 2005 and it was invented by Jerry Jeremy Privos to work for me at Yes. Air Conditioning Plumbing in Vegas. And he created the call by call management system and, you know, he, he, he did had created outstanding results in, in our plumbing businesses by that method.

And we've been doing that for, like I said, since oh five. Now it's the new, now it's the new Popsicle. 

Mm-hmm. That's funny for, um, as, as you were, I'm, I'm thinking about this like leadership structure, the cadence of communication, the way you're holding accountable. I, I, all of it makes sense. I think it's helpful if I put that in the context of, I'm gonna say 2025, but insert any challenging year and I think there's leadership during like 2021.

Um, or like maybe lead may, not picking on a year specifically, but just when growth is, when leads are easier to get versus like a 20, 25, the HVAC industry has like taken a punch. Right. Does that change the leadership dynamic? Does it, like, how do you think people should be changing how they're working with their teams amidst, I mean, most people I'm speaking to are down kind of a lot in the, in the last two quarters.

So how do you think that changes? 

Well, it shouldn't change it, it shouldn't change it because, you know, w what usually happens when leads are plentiful, people get sloppy and inefficient 'cause it's just all coming. They get sloppy and efficient, inefficient. But, you know, we learned a long time ago to measure the efficiency.

And we also learned this, you know, this business is, it comes in spurts. It's not long, you know, long, long periods of revenue. Right. It comes in spurts, it goes up and down and you know, I know for sure in the summers in Phoenix and Las Vegas, the first a hundred plus degree day, you know, maybe that, that heat spell, spell lasts for one to two weeks.

Then what happens? It rains cools down the city. Mm-hmm. Then we have a few weeks we're like, we're we're checking the phone company to see if our phone line was shut off or not. So, you know, it's, it's not all. Up and to the right. So you, you, you have to be planning for that all the time. You have to be leading with the thought, the scarcity mindset that, you know, I make every single opportunity count.

I'm gonna be as most efficient and I'm gonna keep that muscle memory and discipline up in my business. So when the lean times come, we don't go really rogue and, and go take our sloppy habits into a sparse lead flow environment, right? Mm-hmm. And so I tell my team all the time, I just had a, a team meeting this morning and I said, listen, every single opportunity is gold.

It's every single opportunity counts. And one thing I've learned over the years is so many guys I've met have turned their business around. They've been struggling, thinking about going under, you know, just can't seem to make it. And I said. Go sit in the call center for the next six months, just go sit in there and listen to what's goes on and start driving traffic and see how you can tighten it up.

And in every single case, they fix their business. Because once you hear it and you hear the madness and nonsense that goes on, or that, you know, things don't, don't happen. Right? Or, you know, why'd you let that customer cancel? Or why did you mm-hmm. You know, you should have said this. I need to revise my scripts.

And that hub, that central meeting, that, that, that beginning customer impression is as tight as can be. So you can execute on the scarce number of leads that you have. So I guess it comes back to, um, you, you have to act even in the good times with a scarcity mindset that, you know, I have to be extremely efficient and make every single customer opportunity count and, and keep that habit up.

Mm-hmm. When the lean times come. 

Yeah. When, what, this is a very different subject, but as I was thinking about you talking to your team and Yeah. At canner and, uh, obviously very different size team, right? From, from the, from the previous one you were at, from gto, what's been your favorite size to run? Like, what's been the favorite section of business for you?

Like team size, revenue size, what's been the most enjoyable? I feel like some people are the zero to one, the one to 20. Like where do you find enjoyment?

You know, once you start to get, once you start getting over 50 million in sales, um, things get a lot easier because you can afford a management team, you can afford, you can afford some high caliber management team. So I would say there, you know, um. A hundred million is a really nice business to have these days.

Um, uh, but even I would say at the $250 million level, there was a lot going on. But again, I, I had, I had the, I had the cash flow to have some very, very high caliber, talented people. And you know, it, it was probably one of the best times in business because at that point, whatever I could imagine, whatever weird, wacky thought goes on my brain, they can go get done.

They could execute. I'd say, Hey, what do you think about this? Let's do this. Let's make a plan. And they would execute and get it done, whatever I came up with. And so that was a, that's a great spot to be. So anywhere, you know, to, to, you know, tidy up this question anywhere you can get to where you can have a full management team, a real CFO, a real controller, maybe a real COO, somebody's on top of the day-to-day operations, a real VP of sales.

He's driving the sales guys and you know, you're just, you know, you're execute, you're leading them through your vision. That's the best place to be. Sounds like the 

best place to be. For, as you brought on those roles, did they grow it in the business with you or did you bring them on later on? I'm sure it was a variety of both.

But you know, at 250 million, how many of those senior leaders worked with you for five years up to that point? 

Uh, many of them. Many of them. Most of them, yeah. Uh, so yeah, we were, we homegrown a lot of people and, um, we were able to, and this is, this is another lesson I learned from this family office private equity group that I was involved in.

Bam, is they kind of taught me how to really go after very accomplished high caliber talent that came from different industries. Now, I've always had an eye for talent. If you wanna know, one of my core competencies is I have an eye for talent and I'm able to recruit them on my team, and I've always been pretty good at that and which is a, a very necessary skill for every leader to have.

Mm-hmm. Right? You build your team, I mean, I literally hand by person, by person, have built the key team, but I would go out, I wasn't necessarily looking for industry type people. Because you know, the business is mostly mom and pop. Right? And so it's all family businesses. Mom and pop. Like I said earlier, nobody's really had much management training on how to manage people and you know, so there's just not a lot of, not a big talent pool.

It's growing now, but we're picking everybody off from other big home service businesses. Like TruGreen is a lot of TruGreen people in the HVAC business now, for instance. Mm-hmm. So, um, you gotta be great at the talent thing. I'll tell you a quick story to that, to that direction. When I, I told you about when I was working with a RS and I had the seven businesses to fix and all that.

Yeah. So I was recruiting for that management team and I was in California one time and at a family barbecue. And so I meet this guy, and he's relative or something. He's, he's involved some way, but I meet him, I start talking to him and, you know, he works for Otis Elevator or worked, he was retiring or he was retiring early.

He was like 50, and he was a regional vp. And I said, well, what, what'd you, you know, what'd you run? He goes, I ran, you know, this region, about 500 million revenue, blah, blah, blah. How'd you get into that? He's telling me, well, he went to Harvard. He was a Harvard MBA student, and he tells me the story on how Otis Elevator came to be the elevator giant, which was, it was a roll up back in the seventies and or eighties.

And they went out and recruited MBA, uh, Ivy League MBAs to be their, their management training ground for their, for their branches. And they built their business that way. That's how they scaled that business. Interesting story. But so I decided. I'm gonna get this Harvard MBA to work for me. I don't know how I'm gonna do it, but I'm gonna figure it.

I'm gonna get a Harvard MBA on my team, just so I'll see if that's, that, that means anything. So, long story short, over time I talk him into joining the team. But to that point, that guy now, he brought a lot, he brought a lot to our team. He brought, uh, new ways of thinking about things, looking at things, some technologies that I weren't, wasn't aware of.

You know, to be able to enlist people on your team with that caliber of people can really change the direction you're going in business. But, you know, you have to be, have the confidence in yourself to be able to hire somebody with those credentials and not be intimidated by it, or feel like they're gonna take something from you.

Right. 

Yeah. And you think most owners are, I, I would assume intimidated by. Intimidated by that. 

Yeah. Which 

would make some sense, you know, if someone was a technician. I think it's intimidating to hire a, a big role. 

It is. But just remember, you know, here the way I, I cured myself, I think, I think with these other businesses I was involved in and these bigger roles mm-hmm.

I was involved in, you figure out pretty soon that you can, you can, uh, compete with most, most other people in business, right? Yeah. And so that gave me a lot of confidence. Um, and, you know, just practice. But I will say the way that I conditioned my mind to be able to hire people that were smarter than me was I'd said, but I'm the owner.

You know, I, this is, this is my creation. I'm building this business. And, um, so I have to, to make it work, I have to stock it with the best. The best team available. I possible. So I need the confidence like I'm building this and, and my team has to have the best of the best on it, whether they're smarter than me or not.

So I kind of, yeah, looked at it like that. 

Yeah, I think that makes sense. I think, uh, our next big hire is CFO, which, you know, I've never hired A CFO, uh, so that it'll be kind of fun to start figuring that out. Definitely intimidating. Uh, you don't know what you don't know, um, but asking a lot of people, you know, best attributes, what did they look for?

You know, what made the right CFO tick? Uh, that's been really helpful. So just maybe echoing the, um, best practice group because we were able to just lean on a lot of other members. Our best practice groups of what, Hey, how did, when did you hire A CFO? What size? And like, what did you look for? You know? And that, that was pretty helpful.

But it was intimidating. It's intimidating. 

Well, here's what I learned from, again, another PE thing is that, you know, over the years we've hired many CFOs, but you know, that is a critical role, especially when you're dealing with a PE firm with a big fund and all that, you know? Yeah. So, you know, they really have to have a competent and experienced CFO.

But I'll tell you, there's nothing better than having a competent, experienced CFO on your team, not a glorified controller who, who, you know, their last job, they called 'em A CFO. So they believe they're A CFO, A real CFO, who understands, really understands every financial aspect of the business. And A CFO is not necessarily going to be doing the accounting.

They're not accountants, right? They're analyzing trends and they're. They're, you know, computing numbers for you and, and pricing strategies and acquisition strategies, and, you know, doing the acquisitions, all that kind of stuff. But I would recommend in the last, probably the last four CFOs that we've hired in my various ventures, um, uh, we were encouraged to use a headhunter, um, you know, pros that go out and find them, and they vet them first.

They vet them. You tell 'em what you're looking for. I mean, we went as far as, for instance, one of the headhunters said, okay, I'm gonna interview Ken first and say, tell me what it's like to work for Ken. And, you know, and then they interview other people, what it's like to work for Ken. Uh, you know, they took my version and then they took some of my direct reports version and, you know, they were like really clear.

They, they got this document out and said, let's just make sure that things are very clear before we even hired. Like for instance, if Ken wants to call you on the weekend and ask you a quick question about the business, or he wants you to answer the phone, and that's a, that's a non-negotiable when Ken calls you and he, he's, he's not gonna bother you just to, to ki but if he calls you, that means he needs a, an answer or, or something done right away.

You answer the phone and it's surprise how many people that turned off and, and you know, we, some candidates went away, but good. Better to know now, right before they get there. So anyway, headhunter, you gotta find a real headhunter specifically to CFOs and that can really, you know, really be a great add to your team.

Yeah, yeah. We're excited about it. I think it'll change, uh, and I appreciate that perspective. I think it'll change the shape of the business quite a bit. Um, and a few people have echoed exactly that. Like, Hey, the right CFO moves the business forward. The wrong CFO doesn't, they either, you know, they don't, or they move you backwards, but, uh, but the right CFO is like a force multiplier.

So I'm looking forward, you know, you know how, you know, 

you picked the wrong 

one. 

Here's how you know how you picked the wrong one. 

Tell me. 

Well, I mean, I, I've had so many, you know, ventures and people come and go on my, on my business career, right? So, but when you get a, you, when you get a new controller, okay.

A new controller, call it a bookkeeper. Right? And then they come back and they say the last person messed it all up and they didn't know what they were doing. I don't know what it is about accountants. They always kind of point the finger backwards, but the ones who don't point the finger backwards and they just deal with what they gotta deal with and they get stuff fixed and move on.

That's the gem, not the one that keeps complaining about the last person that was here. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. What, uh, best practice group are you in? 

Uh, we're in a few. Uh, yeah, we're big believers of, um, talking to as many people as possible because honestly, it's one of the reasons we've done the podcast, but we're in Nexstar and we're in, uh, what's now called Certain Path, but we were in it when it was Success Group International.

Um. But then the, the, honestly, the, the show has helped expand the network probably a lot wider than, uh, than a best practice group. We're on episode 300, I think, almost, uh, so we've been able to meet a lot of people, which has been really helpful. So, um, and, and learn, you know, today I learned quite a bit.

Well, I think Nexstar has a great system. I always have. It's, it's, you know, it's probably one of the gold standards of, uh, of the mm-hmm. Best practice groups. I think I, I was only a member for I think a month, and then I sold the business. So, uh, um, but I'm a member of Certain Path for the RAD Business. Yep.

And, uh, we've always been a member of, um, service Nation Alliance, um mm-hmm. You know. We've always been members and get good rebates and such. And, uh, I, I actually think the service roundtable.com tools are very good. I've used for years. 

Yeah, yeah. We, we might even be a part of Service Roundtable. I just don't think I engage in it very much.

Um, but we're definitely, yeah, I mean, certain paths been, has been great. Nexstar has been great. It, it feels like there's, there's a lot of different tools. Uh, and I just think my feedback has been, you know, find the ones that work for you, find the ones that work for your team. Take a little bit of the best from wherever you can get it.

Um, but also just talk to as many people as you can, because I think the, the peer learning and the talking to other contractors is where I've learned the most. 

Yeah, I mean, I like that Nexstar kind of has a. Operational order about it, about mm-hmm. When things get implemented and things like, so, you know, a guide like that, I believe.

Um, 

I think so. We joined a little bit larger, so I, when we joined, we were already 20 million of revenue. So I, a lot of that stuff, I, I think we had already had it in place, uh, from, frankly, from certain path, which was, yeah. 

I like certain, I mean, I was in, uh, airtime 500 and PSI. Yeah. Sounds like you were too.

Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was in both of those. 

Yeah. And I think they've, yeah, I mean, they're both additive to the industry. Um, I, I don't know. I don't know how much, having no PE inside Nexstar really changes the dynamic. Uh, any initial thoughts on that?

You know, I've had a lot of PE guys ask me that very question and, you know, here's what I have to say. I think the fundamental system of the nexstar, the fundamental nexstar system, if you implement it, is very sound and it's, and, uh, you know, it's obviously, it obviously works because most of the top businesses in our industry Yeah.

Used it, right? So, um, you, you can't argue about that. That said, I mean, I understand the bi I understand business models very well. I can go watch a company for a little bit and tell you exactly what their business model looks like or what, what the, you know, what their drivers are. And so I know this for sure, the nexstar system probably has its limit on scalability.

Because it doesn't address, it doesn't address some next level stuff that have to be included to scale. You know, um, I, I, again, I'm not that deep involved in the system. This is just from my observations and friends that have been involved in it, this, and I just think it hits a wall for PE when they're just trying to get all these locations going.

And that's where, you know, you can probably be led down the wrong direction. You can, 

who do you think does solve it? Or do you, like, how do you think people get the answers for what's next? So I, I'll tell you what we're, where we're struggling, where we're struggling, I don't even know if it's with, I don't think it's with Nexstar at all, frankly.

Uh, they might have the solution for this. They might not. Um, but we're prepping to go multi-location. We have a, we're, we're closing two acquisitions right now and we'll probably close two more next year. So four in the next 12, 13 months. And. Some are like, you know, local, but one's a state away and the other one's probably gonna be a state away too.

And I, the biggest challenges that I see for our next 12 to 24 months is multi-location management. And that doesn't seem to be covered. Uh, so most of where I've learned that is just by talking to people. But where do you think the answers that, that aren't there? W would be found. 

I, you know, you just gotta come out to Vegas and hang out with me for a couple days.

I mean, that's really, well that sounds 

great. Sounds great. Sign me up. 

I dunno of any group that's teaching that, um, I know that, uh, Gary Eck, who, uh, are you familiar with Gary? 

I'm not, no. Uh, I'll look him up though. 

So Gary Eck was, uh, he's been a. Decades long, uh, industry leader, consultant, contractor, uh, owns I market.

Um, okay. Market solutions, you know, the, uh, digital marketing business. You know, he's been all over the industry. Um, you know, he knows multi-branch business and he's starting a, a best practice group called Contract the Contractor's Edge. 

Okay. Interesting. 

Yeah. So look that up. The contractor's edge. 

Yeah.

I'll send 

Yeah, but text me later. I'll send you his phone number. 

Yeah, 

so he's, he's a great resource. I mean, I found that guy, I found that guy in the late nineties. He had a website and he would share some of his ideas. And I just absorbed that stuff, the math behind the business, how to do the pricing correctly, how to figure out efficiency, you know, how to apply your day, labor rates, your hourly labor rates, all your stuff, right.

And I just absorbed that stuff and he really took me to a whole nother level. And he is been a friend and mentor since. So, but, but in terms of, you're right though, I don't think anybody's teaching multi branch leadership management how to pick up the right manager, this or that. 

Yeah. But 

I, you know, I have a proven system because I've had five multi-branch companies, well come to think of it, six now, seven multi-branch businesses that I've built.

So, and it's really goes to what's your dashboard, what's your numbers? And it's daily accountability to the, to, to those numbers against your plan. Every single day right on top of 'em. And it keeps your team focused. It keeps those managers paying attention to what's important because they know they're going to be talking to you or the COO about it soon.

And then, you know, the routine that we created, like I said, Tuesday calls and Friday calls for an hour. We go through every single branch, they go through their numbers, and it's kind of a, you know, fast paced thing. If they're up, great, what are you doing? Right? If you're down, okay, how, how are we gonna course correct?

Get input from the team, blah, blah, blah. Give 'em a little motivation. Let's go, go to the next one. And it's that constant routine that keeps 'em straight down the middle. It's when you're not, when you're not managing 'em at that level, and you're just letting 'em show up and let the wind take 'em where they may go that day, that's when disaster's gonna happen.

Yeah, I'm gonna think more 

on that one. You're 

welcome to come out, you're welcome to come out anytime though, and we'll kind of show you the routine in, in, uh, Vegas or Phoenix. 

Yeah. Yeah. I'd love it. Well, I appreciate you walking us through. I mean, this was a wide ranging conversation, but I was thankful for all of it.

What, what's next for, what's next for you, Ken, you're building generator. You've launched a training. I, I've got the name, the j Duncan Goodrich Air Conditioning Technology Institute. Uh, you're building skilled trades. I mean, you, you're still involved in a lot. You're on the board of ghetto. What, what's next in your life?

Well, you know that, uh, the, the j Duncan Goodrich, um, HVAC technology Lab was, uh, um, a, uh, endowment I created for the College of Southern Nevada. And this is, goes back to oh eight, a great recession. And they were gonna shut down the school. So I funded it and they named it after my father, which was quite an honor.

And so, you know, we have various endowments for that school. We provide scholarships, uh, my fam, my family, uh, my family office. Mm-hmm. We provide scholarships for that school. We, uh, we created a, a nine 11, a post nine 11 veteran tool award. So any post nine 11 veteran that graduates from the HVAC program, we give 'em their first $1,500 worth of tools to get started, uh, when That's awesome.

Things like that. So, yeah, we've been heavily involved in that. Um, um, I'm just building my, you know, I'm building my business, my, my Goodrich business Builders business. And so we have the generators coming along right now, and we're gonna mm-hmm. Uh. We're gonna work on exiting the next, next, uh, 12 to 18 months.

Uh, and then we've got some other small businesses percolating right now that we're building. So, you know, I'm just, I have my own version of a PE firm mm-hmm. Which I have operating, you know, partners that come in and just grab a hold of these businesses and tighten 'em up and document the process and put the team team together and grow 'em.

And so, uh, you know, sounds like 

fun. 

I enjoy, I'm, I enjoy, I enjoy doing that. And, uh, you know, I like to, we're just gonna keep that going and hopefully, you know, I want my team that's been with me a long time. I want them to succeed and take it on when I don't wanna work anymore. I got my son involved. He's gonna work on it too.

But I will tell you this, for young guys like yourself and anybody else, younger listening. The greatest opportunity of all times right now is the silver tsunami, which is all the baby boomers are, are mm-hmm. Retiring. Most of all the wealth. And most of all the businesses are owned by baby boomer boomers.

And a lot of them don't know what to do with them. They don't know how to get rid of 'em. Nobody wants 'em, their kids don't want 'em. And most of 'em will end up closed down. And so for young guys that can understand some of the fundamentals, like we talked about today mm-hmm. Like the management system, uh, like the vital factors of the metrics of the business, the numbers, the math behind the business, like getting involved in a best practice group and whatever that industry is, your young guys could co get ahold and, and get ahold of a business for with not a lot of money, probably owner financing.

Uh, there's a lot of SBA money floating around right now and get into a business and grow it and sell it. And by the way, let me say this. Everything we do, we start with what we call the thousand day plan. So when I, when I told you the ghetto story, when I sold a, a chunk of it in 2018, I brought the management team together.

You mentioned Dale Steele, which was a key guy for me for a long time, and we like brought him in. Say, okay, look, here's your, here's your equity, here's your, uh, profits interest in the business. If we get to here, this is what it's gonna be worth. Now we are going to come together as a team and make a plan to where we're gonna 10 x the value of the business in a thousand days.

And how do we do it? And so it's a big whiteboarding session over the weekend. How are we gonna do it? Sounds impossible, but how do we make it possible? How would we 10 x the value of the business? Now obviously depending on the market conditions, the market has to cooperate. Which hap happened to do it, get, uh, and you know, interest rates were favorable.

All this stuff was really, yeah. Really set up well for us, but we put an entire plan together with a Gantt chart. Here's what's gotta be in place every month. Here's our set revenue and our profits and our, and our, um, uh, operational excellence tools and need to be in place. Here's our people, here's our trucks.

We need fci, whatever we thought we need. And then we would just continually massage that plan. And so on the ghetto deal, for instance, we closed the transaction for 10 times. The value that we got on the first transaction on day 9 96, it was because we had a plan and we, we, that's pretty good. We really looked at, we really looked at it like, what's possible?

What can we, real, what's really possible? And challenge your, your team that way. Then just saying, you know, we're gonna be at. We're gonna be here in two years, you know? Mm-hmm. Really bear down on something, a nice sprint. So we have our thousand day plan going for the, for the generator business, which, you know, ends end of December next year.

Yeah. Yeah. We, and by the way, I like, I liked it a lot. 

Yeah. The thousand days plan, we started working 

through, uh, we started working through our value creation plan. It, it's not a thousand days, but it, it's the same, it's sort of a similar process of like, all right, here's where we have to be, which is as deep as I had previously gone, which is, Hey, this is where I have to be.

Uh, and fortunately I was encouraged to go deeper. Uh, so we did, and now it's okay. Here's exactly what we have to do to get to where we have to be. So, but I, I didn't assign the thousand days. I, I think I like that clarity to it. You guys achieve the mission? 

Well, gotta put a, put a timeframe to it. And, you know, it kind of goes like this.

It doesn't mean you have to sell it, you're just 10 xing the value. 

Yeah. 

But you know, now, with now, because of all this pe and, and, and valuations of businesses really kind of come to the forefront on, on most people's heads, in our, certainly in our industry, you kind of, you kind of need, you kind of understand how to value a business.

And so it's not bad for you to wake up one day and say, well, all right, the family has decided that we want this family asset to be worth a hundred million dollars by this time, whether you sell it or not. But it's nice to know what, what your value is, right? 

Mm-hmm. 

And certainly keeps you down the right path of growing it the right way, making sure you have.

All the tools in place, the right team in place, and everything's 

Yeah, 

fine. All cylinders. And I wanna say this one last thing before, before we get off, because, uh, yeah. Um, I just as, as a public service message, I can't tell you how many guys find me every single week. Like people are tracking me down every single week to talk to me about air conditioning business.

Right? And a lot of them are young guys who are just starting out, you know, and it always goes like this, Hey Ken, I just, uh, I just gave my notice at work and I bought me a van and, and, um, uh, I'm gonna get started in two weeks and I want, you know, can you gimme some words of wisdom? How, what you know of how I should start?

And I said, yes, I have some very good words of wisdom. Go back to your boss, tell him you made a mistake. And you're not, you, you're not ready to go And can you have your job back? 99%, you'll will take you back. Then you go to a best practice group and that's your day. That's your night job. Your night job is, you go to, for instance, you go to service excellence called, called Todd Lyles, who has a spark program that will tell you how to get to your first million, the fundamental tools that you'll need to start your first million.

You'll come away with a business plan and understanding how, what the math behind, how to charge, how to price, you know, how to pay an employee, how to, you know, how to man the basic fundamentals of managing 'em, the numbers behind the business so you have a fighting chance. Otherwise, you know, I got through my hell years ago, um, uh, years ago, but depending on where you're at in life, I didn't have a family.

It was just me. I could work 20 hours a day if I had to, and, and I pulled it off. But man, you got a family that's counting on you and you know, you get yourself in a hole running one of these businesses. It's a tough, tough spot to be. Don't get yourself there. Go prepare yourself first. And I would say this, for the guys that are listening that are a little ahead of themselves who didn't, didn't do what I said here, and they've got out, maybe they got a $2 million business, but it's just on fire every single day in a big mess.

Scale the business down to a more comfortable level to where you can make a, the living that you need to make. Don't try to push it. Just say, I got my house and kids and family covered. We're all eating and everything's fine. Get to that place. Then go to the best practice group, learn what you're supposed to do, and implement the system before you even go further.

Stop pushing the business past, you know, past the point of you allowing you to have time to build the business. Make sense? Yeah, 

yeah, yeah. It does. And I, I think, uh, I always, the phrase I used that helped me with this was, um, personal development is the same as business development. So, you know, the business can't grow faster than you, and if it does, it'll collapse.

So, yeah, I think the scale down and like get yourself educated, catch yourself up, like that resonates with me. 

Yeah. What it's really, it's really saying the same thing. Fix yourself. You know yourself, you need to know what, you need to know the business of hvac, you already know the trade of hvac. You need to know the business of HVAC before you become a HVAC business owner.

Yeah. And look, that piece of advice will save people five to 10 years of complete and utter hell. You agree? 

Yeah. I, I really do. I mean, I've bought a lot of those guys, like, you know, I'm sure you have too. I've acquired a lot of customer lists 'cause they're just like, I can't do this anymore. And they got to half a million of revenue and, um, yeah, I agree.

They, they knew the trade, but they didn't know the business. 

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 

So, so Ken, this, this was awesome. I appreciate you coming on and sharing your story and your thoughts with us today. This was a lot of fun. 

Yeah. Happy to. And, and, uh, you ever want to come out? Come out our way. Uh, you know, people tour our, our, uh, gettel operation all the time.

And so, um, you know, just hit me up and sorry, I'll get you scheduled. 

Awesome. Thank you Ken.