1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:11,560 Welcome to Fork Around and Find Out, the podcast about building, running, and maintaining software 2 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,560 and systems. 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:24,760 Hello everyone and happy new year from Fork Around and Find Out. 4 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,199 I am Justin Garrison and with me today as always is Autumn Nash. 5 00:00:28,199 --> 00:00:29,199 How's it going, Autumn? 6 00:00:29,599 --> 00:00:31,239 Good, but don't lie, it's still December. 7 00:00:31,239 --> 00:00:32,240 That's just going to air. 8 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:33,600 Hey, hey, it doesn't matter. 9 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:34,159 It doesn't matter. 10 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:35,159 It's January. 11 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:36,159 You're ruining the fun. 12 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:41,759 Let's just like we're trying to survive the last few days of 2025. 13 00:00:41,759 --> 00:00:44,519 Okay, like let us know what it's like on the other side. 14 00:00:47,879 --> 00:00:50,399 Please everyone drop a comment and tell us what it's like. 15 00:00:50,719 --> 00:00:51,519 Did you make it? 16 00:00:51,519 --> 00:00:54,159 Like is it better? 17 00:00:56,359 --> 00:00:57,480 The bar is on the floor. 18 00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:58,480 Let's be real. 19 00:00:58,959 --> 00:01:03,559 2020, but I want to say it can't be worse, but man, I'm always surprised. 20 00:01:03,559 --> 00:01:07,120 Justin, Justin, you just gave us a curse. 21 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,239 Take it back right now. 22 00:01:10,239 --> 00:01:12,079 You blamed all of our families. 23 00:01:12,079 --> 00:01:13,079 Why? 24 00:01:13,079 --> 00:01:17,000 But we're starting the year off strong because today we got Cassidy Williams on the show. 25 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,799 Cassidy is a senior director of developer advocacy at GitHub. 26 00:01:20,799 --> 00:01:23,239 Man, there's a lot of Ds in that phrase. 27 00:01:23,239 --> 00:01:24,239 Fancy. 28 00:01:24,759 --> 00:01:30,640 You have the best tagline here on the front of your website that you say, I like to make 29 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,119 memes and dreams and software. 30 00:01:33,119 --> 00:01:38,560 And not only is that a great combination, but also you avoid the whole problem of should 31 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,840 I have an Oxford comma or not by just throwing extra ands in that sentence. 32 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:43,840 And that's wonderful. 33 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:44,840 Yeah. 34 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,439 And so no one will ever question any word I ever say. 35 00:01:47,439 --> 00:01:48,719 Yeah, you know, it doesn't matter. 36 00:01:48,719 --> 00:01:50,759 She's like, I just add ands and it's fine. 37 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,400 But I think that's what's best about your context, your content, though. 38 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:57,880 Like it breeds your personality. 39 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:04,520 Like some people make like the content they make about developers and tech. 40 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:06,840 Like, and it's so boring. 41 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:09,480 You know what I mean? 42 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,960 Like, I love that we're professionals and we're doing a job. 43 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:16,920 But like, what makes me want to watch your video versus somebody else's video? 44 00:02:16,920 --> 00:02:19,000 And yours are like absolutely hilarious. 45 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:19,719 Like half the time. 46 00:02:19,719 --> 00:02:21,319 I'm just like, there's one tear. 47 00:02:21,319 --> 00:02:23,479 I'm dying and I'm like reposting it. 48 00:02:23,479 --> 00:02:26,520 I'm like, Cassidy understands my life. 49 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:31,199 What's that one video that you posted, like you reposted it, but it was from like a year ago. 50 00:02:31,199 --> 00:02:33,599 I forget, but I posted it and I was like still accurate. 51 00:02:33,599 --> 00:02:37,439 Like it's like one of the like. 52 00:02:37,439 --> 00:02:39,919 Usually it's just pain and then laughing at the pain. 53 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:41,159 So it could be literally anything. 54 00:02:41,159 --> 00:02:43,919 That's I feel like that's what gets you through being an engineer. 55 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,560 You just like laugh at the pain and then other people laugh with you. 56 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,680 And then it helps your imposter syndrome to realize it's not just you and you don't just suck. 57 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:53,240 We all suck together. 58 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:59,120 Right. And if you laugh at it and everybody's laughing at pain, then maybe the pain will go away. 59 00:02:59,120 --> 00:02:59,719 That's wishful thinking. 60 00:02:59,719 --> 00:03:02,000 I'm always like, but there's hope. 61 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:03,640 Maybe. I don't know. 62 00:03:03,640 --> 00:03:05,159 Maybe. 63 00:03:05,159 --> 00:03:13,000 But on top of your great videos, you also have a wonderful newsletter with jokes that even make me cringe sometimes, 64 00:03:13,039 --> 00:03:19,960 which is lovely because I think they're the cherry on top of a wonderful newsletter and a prolific writer on your blog. 65 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,840 You're going through a whole daily December blog post, right? 66 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:24,919 Yeah. Blog vent. 67 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:33,879 It is. I always go in so optimistic and then like I'm like halfway through December now and I'm like, I am grasping for straws of topics. 68 00:03:33,879 --> 00:03:39,000 Well, and since this is January now, how did it go for you? 69 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:43,199 It was incredible. 70 00:03:43,199 --> 00:03:45,280 Which, OK, first of all, let's unpack this. 71 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:55,360 For one, I think cringe should be the new word for all things good, because I love people that will unabashedly be themselves and hilarious. 72 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:57,199 But it just like I love the jokes. 73 00:03:57,199 --> 00:04:00,120 But also, how do you out cringe Justin? 74 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,599 Because he is like king of the dad jokes. 75 00:04:03,599 --> 00:04:06,719 Like he like dad jokes are so bad. 76 00:04:06,759 --> 00:04:08,960 You really out joke Justin? 77 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,159 I'm not a real dad. I'm a faux pas. 78 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,680 Oh my God, I love you. 79 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,839 And I think we're done with the podcast, right? 80 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,439 January 26th, we're off to a good start. 81 00:04:23,439 --> 00:04:24,639 This is Mike Drop. 82 00:04:24,639 --> 00:04:26,240 Thank you all for coming. 83 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,839 Subscribe at Casadoo.co. 84 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:31,279 That's it. 85 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:33,199 That's why I'm here. 86 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:43,800 So tell us, tell us how you got into from your traditionally a software developer or you were doing software development into developer advocacy. 87 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:44,800 What did that look like for you? 88 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:46,240 What have you been doing throughout your career? 89 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:47,639 Obviously hilarious. 90 00:04:47,639 --> 00:04:51,000 I mean, it was just like you can't you can't be a software developer with this sense of humor. 91 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:52,839 So you had to go do something else. 92 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:57,079 I just had to figure out how can I, you know, force this upon people? 93 00:04:57,079 --> 00:04:59,279 No, I request jokes weren't happening. 94 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,359 You're like she's actually got a personality and people skills. 95 00:05:02,359 --> 00:05:03,719 Oh, no. 96 00:05:03,719 --> 00:05:06,039 What are we going to do? 97 00:05:06,039 --> 00:05:10,839 Honestly, my entire career has been just like a dev rel sandwich where I actually. 98 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:21,000 So it kind of goes back to college where when I got into college, they had like asked if I could speak to high school students about majoring in computer science and stuff like that. 99 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:22,839 And I liked it. 100 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:26,759 And I was just like, I wonder if there's roles where I can talk in addition to code. 101 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,879 I don't know. And I just continued on with my life. 102 00:05:29,879 --> 00:05:39,240 But then there was a point my senior year, I was going to a lot of different hackathons and I'm going to just go through this part fast because it's kind of silly how obnoxious it is. 103 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:40,360 But here's what happened. 104 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:41,759 I was going to a lot of hackathons. 105 00:05:41,759 --> 00:05:46,399 One of the hackathons was a hackathon on an airplane or as a flight from San Francisco to London. 106 00:05:46,399 --> 00:05:47,519 And we had to build something. 107 00:05:47,519 --> 00:05:52,120 And my team ended up winning and we had to speak at the United Nations about our project. 108 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:59,399 And in that process, I was also doing other hackathons until the United Nations talk, and I ended up interviewing at Venmo at the time. 109 00:05:59,399 --> 00:06:03,920 And that was my first job out of college where they asked me to do both software engineering and dev advocacy. 110 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,720 And it was early in the industry at that time. 111 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:12,000 And so I was just kind of doing both roles, figuring out what it would look like for the company at the time. 112 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:18,079 And then I kind of bounced between advocacy and engineering, depending on the role for the rest of my career. 113 00:06:18,079 --> 00:06:19,519 There's so much to unpack there. 114 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:23,399 First of all, there's a hackathon on an airplane. 115 00:06:23,399 --> 00:06:27,719 Also, you spoke at the United Nations and you did this before your first college job. 116 00:06:27,719 --> 00:06:30,039 Like, way to be an overachiever. 117 00:06:30,039 --> 00:06:31,599 Also, I love this for you. 118 00:06:31,599 --> 00:06:37,959 Thanks. Yeah, no, it was it was a whirlwind of just lots of things happening at once. 119 00:06:37,959 --> 00:06:40,439 And yeah, there is a lot to unpack there. 120 00:06:40,439 --> 00:06:49,439 But long story short, hackathons and meeting a lot of people led to me eventually going into advocacy because I saw people at these hackathons. 121 00:06:49,439 --> 00:06:51,600 And who were representing companies and stuff. 122 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:53,560 And I was like, wait, this is your job. 123 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:55,800 You can just help people code. That's so fun. 124 00:06:55,800 --> 00:07:02,600 And so, again, it wasn't like as much of a full time job back when I was about to enter the industry. 125 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:09,360 And so my initial roles were combos of advocacy and engineering and then went all into engineering, 126 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:13,399 then went all into advocacy and back and forth for almost every role. 127 00:07:13,399 --> 00:07:17,360 How did you find roles that were both advocacy and engineering? 128 00:07:19,959 --> 00:07:23,920 It was the kind of thing where so I started at Venmo. 129 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,120 Venmo was my first job out of school. 130 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:30,680 And at the time, Venmo was owned by a company called Braintree. 131 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:35,079 And then PayPal bought Braintree and Venmo right around when I was joining. 132 00:07:35,079 --> 00:07:37,839 And the PayPal split off from eBay. 133 00:07:37,839 --> 00:07:39,480 There was a lot of like shifts and stuff. 134 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:46,120 And so they were kind of like combination making up the role at Venmo, but also changing tides and stuff. 135 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:52,199 And so that's why it was kind of a combo role because they needed someone to speak to developers and use the Venmo API at the time. 136 00:07:52,199 --> 00:07:54,399 But it was also shifting. 137 00:07:54,399 --> 00:07:58,360 And because of all of my work in the New York City tech scene at the time, that's where I was living. 138 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:06,439 I eventually when enough changes were happening because of that buyout and PayPal splitting off from eBay and stuff, 139 00:08:06,439 --> 00:08:09,639 I ended up going to a startup that basically wanted me to do the exact same thing. 140 00:08:09,639 --> 00:08:13,360 And it was called Clarify, working in AI at the time. 141 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:19,080 And that was also a combo role where I was doing advocacy and engineering on the product, 142 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:25,480 where because it was a startup that was less than 20 people, I was just kind of fulfilling the needs. 143 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:29,639 I was also getting tired and I also wanted to move away from New York City. 144 00:08:29,639 --> 00:08:33,600 And so I moved to Seattle and worked for a creative agency for a while. 145 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:35,480 And that was just straight engineering. 146 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,480 And so I was coding for clients, doing some engineering management. 147 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:40,279 And that was my role. 148 00:08:40,319 --> 00:08:44,600 And I liked it a lot, but I ended up missing talking to developers. 149 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:50,480 And so from there, I went to and that agency ended up being bought and doesn't exist anymore. 150 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:51,919 And I went to Amazon after that. 151 00:08:51,919 --> 00:08:53,879 And that was full advocacy. 152 00:08:53,879 --> 00:08:56,559 And it was advocacy for the Echo. 153 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:00,919 I'm not going to say her name because she's behind me and she'll hear me, the Echo. 154 00:09:00,919 --> 00:09:07,240 And it was fun, but without getting too into the weeds. 155 00:09:07,279 --> 00:09:12,799 The culture didn't really fit with what I wanted to do and I didn't love it. 156 00:09:12,799 --> 00:09:15,159 And so I ended up going to CodePen after that. 157 00:09:15,159 --> 00:09:16,840 And that was a full engineering role. 158 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:22,200 And I loved working on CodePen and just working on a product that I was using so regularly. 159 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:28,440 And I loved CodePen, but I started to miss that speaking to developers aspect again. 160 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:33,320 And so eventually after CodePen, I went and taught React full time. 161 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:39,360 And so I went to a small company called React Training where that team eventually made remix, 162 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:41,920 but was maintaining React router and a bunch of other stuff. 163 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:46,560 And so I was teaching coding full time, doing corporate workshops, public workshops, 164 00:09:46,560 --> 00:09:48,879 and it was awesome traveling a ton. 165 00:09:48,879 --> 00:09:54,120 And that was through the end of 2019 and beginning of 2020. 166 00:09:54,120 --> 00:10:02,360 And so people weren't doing remote workshops and talks as much as much at the time. 167 00:10:02,399 --> 00:10:07,039 The world has changed a whole lot in the past five, six years with regards to that. 168 00:10:07,039 --> 00:10:12,240 And so React Training, we ended up having to just kind of... 169 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:17,680 Everybody had to part ways because the business wasn't going to survive that for a long time. 170 00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:22,720 And from there, I went to Netlify, did advocacy there for a while. 171 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:29,080 And working in developer advocacy at Netlify was really fun because it was working on this platform, 172 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:37,840 the glory days of the Jamstack and helping developers build web dev and build web products better, 173 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,040 which was very fun. 174 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,040 Eventually I burnt out hardcore and took a little break. 175 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:47,520 And I ended up doing some part time work, working at remote.com a little bit, 176 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,920 working for some VCs and advising startups for a while. 177 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:57,040 And then eventually I went to another startup that I was advising and I got really close with the team 178 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:58,879 and it was called Contenda. 179 00:10:58,879 --> 00:11:00,840 And that startup was so fun. 180 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:06,720 We were building a bunch of AI products before ChatGPD came out and then ChatGPD came out. 181 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:11,439 And we had a lot of different pivots and stuff kind of fitting in there. 182 00:11:11,439 --> 00:11:15,639 And honestly, after enough pivots, we got hired and we were like, 183 00:11:15,639 --> 00:11:20,000 okay, Contenda has been very fun, but it's really hard to sustain a business. 184 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:25,159 And so then I consulted for a little while and ended up at GitHub. 185 00:11:25,159 --> 00:11:28,440 So that's a much longer tapestry of what my career has been. 186 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:33,720 But it really has been a sandwich of developing and advocacy and developing and advocacy. 187 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:43,480 Do you think in the year 2026 that AI and coding assistants has ruined what hackathons used to be? 188 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:45,680 Whoa, what a deep question. 189 00:11:45,680 --> 00:11:48,120 I was just like right off the bat, because I used to love hackathons, 190 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:53,160 but I loved it because of the team aspect of you had to get an expert from every little piece 191 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:55,280 that had some experience in different things. 192 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,920 And I would come in and like, oh, I'm the systems expert or architecture. 193 00:11:57,919 --> 00:12:00,719 You get your front end expert, your DBA, whatever. 194 00:12:00,719 --> 00:12:04,679 And you had to work as a team really, really closely, really quickly. 195 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:10,679 And I'm sure that that plane ride was a team of a handful of people that you all sat next to each other. 196 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:12,799 And you just threw files back. 197 00:12:12,799 --> 00:12:14,599 I don't know what the network situation was on the plane. 198 00:12:14,599 --> 00:12:16,759 We were literally on an airplane without Wi-Fi. 199 00:12:16,759 --> 00:12:18,159 USB sticks, no Wi-Fi. 200 00:12:18,159 --> 00:12:19,839 Just like, here you go. Here's the next file. 201 00:12:19,839 --> 00:12:26,120 But now in the age of 2026 and in Claude and all these other code assistants and co-pilot, 202 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:31,879 it's individuals that are like, I will do this part and I will figure it out with my co-pilot and you do that part. 203 00:12:31,879 --> 00:12:37,600 And now it's more about divvying up the work than the camaraderie and teamwork, right? 204 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:39,399 I've never really thought of it that way. 205 00:12:39,399 --> 00:12:45,200 I feel like there's aspects of that where. 206 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:52,039 I don't know, I feel like in a lot of my really early hackathon days when I was still learning and a really early career developer, 207 00:12:52,039 --> 00:12:56,399 so much of my time was spent just like reading docs and trying to learn a new technology. 208 00:12:56,399 --> 00:13:06,919 And now if I do a hackathon, like, for example, I did the GitHub game off recently that it's more like I spent more time figuring out what I wanted to build. 209 00:13:06,919 --> 00:13:09,519 And then I didn't have like AI write it for me. 210 00:13:09,519 --> 00:13:12,879 I just kind of used it as my tool as I was building my project together. 211 00:13:12,879 --> 00:13:22,000 And so you're right, it was less about the camaraderie, but it was also more about like the final product rather than the let's throw code into a thing until something. 212 00:13:22,039 --> 00:13:24,240 Works so it might be. 213 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:29,320 I don't know if it ruins the hackathon vibe, but it definitely changes it. 214 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:32,960 And the reason I always went to hackathons was to network with people, right? 215 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,759 It was like, hey, I want to maybe I don't have a team or I have two people. 216 00:13:35,759 --> 00:13:37,440 We need two more or something like that. 217 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,919 And it was always about meeting people and networking. 218 00:13:39,919 --> 00:13:42,840 I don't feel like it's that way anymore. 219 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:51,759 I haven't been to a hackathon for a while, but just the vibe I feel like is going more towards like what CTF are like CTFs capture the flags are usually individuals. 220 00:13:51,799 --> 00:13:57,240 That are like, I'm going to hack in this box, get all my points, and it's sometimes it's teams, but more often than not, it's a single person. 221 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:58,960 That's like, I know how to use all these tools. 222 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:04,319 I'm just going to see how much I can hack and they get some notoriety because they got they won or whatever. 223 00:14:04,319 --> 00:14:07,720 They learn some stuff, but I don't feel like it's the same thing anymore. 224 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:12,240 I don't know if I agree. I feel like I put on a lot of hackathons and I do a lot of hackathons. 225 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:16,200 And I think like I'm usually very critical of AI. 226 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,720 Like, I try to hold like an honest perception of it. 227 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:29,320 And now that I use it every day, like, I don't really think that AI has changed any camaraderie or networking of anything. 228 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,160 I think it almost like this is going to be a wild take. 229 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:40,600 But I think that we're going to finally, when all this kind of gets more mature, we're finally going to see the difference between developers who could just code. 230 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,600 Like, I think for a long time, we put up with people who could just code. 231 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:44,680 That was all they were good at. 232 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:48,720 They were good at the technical part and nobody wanted to put up with him or deal with him. 233 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,519 But you had to hold on to this one dude because he was really good at being technical. 234 00:14:52,519 --> 00:14:53,519 He was always a dude. 235 00:14:53,519 --> 00:14:55,920 Yeah. So like you've got now... 236 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:56,920 It's an equalizer. 237 00:14:57,519 --> 00:15:03,879 Yes, to me now, like just how we like the joke that we made about like how Cassidy had an actual personality and people skills. 238 00:15:03,879 --> 00:15:10,519 Like, I think that it's going to be really interesting because it's transforming who we are as developers. 239 00:15:10,519 --> 00:15:16,639 Like, I don't think being a developer five years ago and what being a developer five years from now is going to be the same thing. 240 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:27,919 I like to use it to like make proof of concepts for things, but it's like to make different versions and to kind of like troubleshoot it and get it to test things and then go right the actual thing. 241 00:15:27,919 --> 00:15:31,439 Like, I don't know if I think it almost puts more... 242 00:15:32,199 --> 00:15:40,319 Where I hope it will allow for more people that have both the technical skills, the networking and the people skills and the ability to teach. 243 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:49,080 Like, because we're going to have to change the way that we teach junior developers and bring people into the fold because they're like, like Stack Overflow. 244 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,840 Like Stack Overflow is not even going to get the same amount of information it used to get, right? 245 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:58,040 Like, there's a whole new way of trying to figure out how to be a developer because you have... 246 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,560 Like, it's just going to write this code for you, but how do you know if it's good or not? 247 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:02,080 Like, how do you... 248 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:06,560 Like, we're going to be forced to have to like really teach junior engineers. 249 00:16:06,599 --> 00:16:16,919 And I think it's going to like be a very like interesting pivot on how we do that and how senior engineers are going to have to be better at like teaching and building those relationships. 250 00:16:16,919 --> 00:16:21,519 So I think it's actually going to be the opposite where there's more emphasis on people. 251 00:16:21,519 --> 00:16:23,839 Well, if it's done right, you know, we could always do it the wrong way. 252 00:16:24,239 --> 00:16:25,279 If we don't fumble it. 253 00:16:26,679 --> 00:16:32,079 If we don't like completely fumble the bag, I think that like I honestly think that's going to be the differentiator. 254 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:41,920 One, it's going to be the people that take in the most data of the code written because we're not going to have those free open areas to be like, hey, did you have this problem? 255 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,759 Because people are going to ask like, you know, AI now. 256 00:16:45,200 --> 00:17:00,360 And the people, whatever big company or little company, whatever that figures out how to utilize AI in the right way to teach people and not completely like fumble their pipeline and really make good developers who can use it. 257 00:17:00,399 --> 00:17:03,120 But aren't like cut off by it. 258 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,680 I think that's going to be the huge differentiator. 259 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:09,640 I think that too. 260 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:10,960 And sorry to interrupt you, Justin. 261 00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:18,000 First of all, I do still see like student hackathons, the people at MLH and all of their stuff there. 262 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,839 They're doing such great networking events for students and early career people. 263 00:17:21,839 --> 00:17:25,839 So I do think that the hackathon spirit of networking is still alive. 264 00:17:26,199 --> 00:17:33,919 I think the lack of collaboration and stuff is more a sign of like society than AI. 265 00:17:33,959 --> 00:17:40,119 I'm sure AI doesn't help, but I also think society is weird, particularly now. 266 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:41,439 That's a good word for it. 267 00:17:41,439 --> 00:17:43,919 Yeah, that's weird. 268 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:55,159 But I also, I like what you mentioned, Autumn, when it comes to like the content that's being put out now. 269 00:17:55,320 --> 00:18:03,160 I think this is where like the revival of blogs that I'm seeing and like people leaning into RSS feeds and newsletters is really interesting. 270 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:14,160 And I hope that we see more of that because people are going away from centralized platforms like the Twitters of the world and stuff, because they're just like, well, if it goes away, where's all of my content? 271 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:16,560 It's on your spaces that you create. 272 00:18:17,039 --> 00:18:25,879 And this isn't everyone, but I feel like that's a trend I'm starting to see as people starting to create their content and communities in places that are more portable. 273 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:32,159 I feel like it's almost going to be like almost democratizing, but not in the way that it might seem like. 274 00:18:32,679 --> 00:18:40,319 I think it's going to be interesting because the people like the Cassities and Justin who like to play around with things and try things. 275 00:18:40,319 --> 00:18:42,919 And like your curiosity is never going to go away. 276 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:51,200 Your big personalities are never going to go away, but now they shine through even more because people are just putting out AI slop that has no personality. 277 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,960 So now like you being funny is even more of a differentiator. 278 00:18:55,960 --> 00:19:02,200 The fact that you can both do the technical and be a really good teacher and make that interesting to me. 279 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,600 I think that honestly, like we're a bunch of nerds. 280 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,880 We've made friends on the Internet without having to be in person for a long time. 281 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:11,600 And I think it's going to make the Internet cool again. 282 00:19:11,679 --> 00:19:24,199 You know, like you're just like, look at this weird thing I hacked together or, you know, like just, I don't know, like I hate dealing with DNS and AI can do that part for me while I do the cool colors and like the other cool thing. 283 00:19:24,199 --> 00:19:30,559 You know, I mean, to your point of the AI piece is is a tool to write the code, right? 284 00:19:30,559 --> 00:19:34,679 Like if I was going into any hackathon for myself, like I was never I never considered myself a coder. 285 00:19:34,839 --> 00:19:37,719 I was like, I will set up the infrastructure so that you can run your code, do whatever. 286 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:44,480 And now I can participate in the code writing pieces of it because I have a tool that generally does that. 287 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:49,279 But back to what Cassidy was saying before, like I used to also read all the docs. 288 00:19:49,279 --> 00:19:54,079 And that's how I know when things work or they don't work, when the AI says, oh, you should be able to do this. 289 00:19:54,079 --> 00:19:56,000 Like, no, no, no, that's not in the API spec. 290 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,000 That is not a field that is available. 291 00:19:58,200 --> 00:19:59,000 We have to do a different way. 292 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:06,799 Right. Like you still have to have that one notch lower understanding of what you're doing to be able to do it in any successful way. 293 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:17,559 But I think my my ultimate question is, what does that notion of I have a tool that writes the code for me and possibly even reads the docs better than than a human coder? 294 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:19,960 Comprehend it. What happens to DevRel? 295 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:28,079 Right. Because DevRel was the person that had to take all the docs and give them the pieces that they cared about. 296 00:20:28,079 --> 00:20:29,279 And then they could go write the code. 297 00:20:29,279 --> 00:20:31,240 But now I have a tool that does both those sides. 298 00:20:31,519 --> 00:20:33,720 So is DevRel's job just to be funny? 299 00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:37,640 All right. Like the things that the humor side of the AI that's not good at. 300 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,319 I think like we are far from that. 301 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,600 Maybe someday I'm going to be just like, remember when I didn't worry about my job. 302 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:55,920 Ha ha ha. But like the number of AI written blog posts that I've been asked to review, not even just like the ones that coworkers send me. 303 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,680 I mean, like, in general, people will ask me to review blog posts. 304 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,880 I'm just like, I can tell an AI wrote this because it's terrible. 305 00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:07,920 Like I I'm personally not worried about that level of content creation. 306 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:15,640 It might speed things up where I love tools like Descript, for example, where it uses AI to very quickly get a transcript and to make edits. 307 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:23,200 If you like remove a word and it'll cut something or using AI to auto add captions or something. 308 00:21:23,279 --> 00:21:29,480 I think that there's things that AI does for you, but there's still things that. 309 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:38,640 I know an AI couldn't do the product demos that I do, and not because that not because the AI tools are bad and not because I'm perfect, 310 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:45,880 but because there's still a level of human quality that is needed for now, for the next. 311 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,039 I also think the human relation part to it, you know what I mean? 312 00:21:49,279 --> 00:21:53,319 You understand what other humans find, not just funny, because I don't want to like, 313 00:21:53,759 --> 00:21:56,639 I think we have to be careful to not reduce Cassie to just being funny, right? 314 00:21:56,759 --> 00:21:57,799 But it's more than that. 315 00:21:57,799 --> 00:22:02,799 Like, like, you know, we were talking about laughing about the bad times, like when things go wrong. 316 00:22:02,799 --> 00:22:07,599 It's not just so much about being funny, but like you can then identify with all those developers. 317 00:22:07,599 --> 00:22:09,759 I feel your pain. This happens to me, too. 318 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,599 Like, and I think that, like, AI is good for a lot of things. 319 00:22:13,599 --> 00:22:21,119 But to me, it's like an IDE or, you know, like Photoshop or just the different things that we have already been using to enhance the world. 320 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,039 Like, it's really bad at some things. 321 00:22:23,039 --> 00:22:25,919 It's really good at some things. You have to know that just to use it, right? 322 00:22:25,919 --> 00:22:30,199 Like, there's so many like, they're just double different levels of abstraction. 323 00:22:30,199 --> 00:22:33,119 Like Photoshop didn't stop people from being photographers. 324 00:22:33,159 --> 00:22:42,959 You know what I mean? Like, it didn't stop people from having cool, unique ways of creating like a drama or a story with photos, you know? 325 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:44,559 So like, I don't know. 326 00:22:44,559 --> 00:22:50,759 I think that that's when we know AI really has the relevance when we get through the like pretending it will do everybody's job. 327 00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:53,319 And like, it almost shows what we're good at. 328 00:22:53,319 --> 00:23:00,799 Like, I don't think the way that you use your videos to like show the empathy and relation that other people like you understand what other people are going through. 329 00:23:00,799 --> 00:23:03,799 Like, I don't think AI could ever do that. 330 00:23:04,519 --> 00:23:07,160 There's do either of you know the game Go? 331 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:10,640 I know of the game Go. I've never played it, but I know it. 332 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:12,400 Yeah, I love Go. 333 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,080 I play Go every day. 334 00:23:14,120 --> 00:23:16,400 It's a really, really fun game you can play online. 335 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:17,120 It's great. 336 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:30,640 Alpha Go came out in like 2017 or something, and it was a whole big thing, kind of like IBM's Watson beat chess master and Alpha Go was Google's version of beating a Go master. 337 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:36,880 And it's interesting to see how much the game Go has changed because of that. 338 00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:39,720 Where I again, I played a lot. 339 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,680 I was a part of a study on like, did AI ruin your enjoyment of the game? 340 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:49,040 And pretty much everybody said no, they still like playing Go, even though an AI could probably beat them. 341 00:23:49,040 --> 00:24:00,600 But what's interesting about the games that we saw and the things that that you can see when Alpha Go has played is it comes up with moves that you've never seen before. 342 00:24:00,839 --> 00:24:06,199 I took a couple Go lessons where a teacher was saying like, oh, in this situation you want to go here. 343 00:24:06,199 --> 00:24:06,879 And I was like, why? 344 00:24:06,879 --> 00:24:11,919 And she said, interestingly, nobody did this for about two or three hundred years. 345 00:24:11,959 --> 00:24:13,399 This was actually the correct move. 346 00:24:13,399 --> 00:24:16,439 But when Alpha Go made this move, everyone was like, why would you do that? 347 00:24:16,839 --> 00:24:18,759 Silly AI, this is ridiculous. 348 00:24:18,959 --> 00:24:21,599 And then like 20 moves later, they're like, wait, what? 349 00:24:21,599 --> 00:24:23,399 And it changed the game literally. 350 00:24:23,639 --> 00:24:27,399 We're like, people are just like, now we know you should definitely go there. 351 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:34,200 And it provided new insights that the people and players didn't see because kind of like that. 352 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,600 There's a Grace Hopper quote, the most dangerous phrase in the languages. 353 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:38,759 We've always done it this way. 354 00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:42,560 I think there's a lot of that in humanity and stuff. 355 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:47,120 We are habitual creatures and this is getting very deep and philosophical. 356 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:54,600 But I think very similarly, AI is going to change the way we see things and the way we do things. 357 00:24:54,719 --> 00:24:59,519 But that doesn't necessarily mean it takes away from not only our enjoyment of the work, 358 00:24:59,519 --> 00:25:01,959 but how we do the work and the work that needs to be done. 359 00:25:04,959 --> 00:25:06,839 And there's it's not just our industry, right? 360 00:25:06,839 --> 00:25:12,079 Like every industry is grappling with what is happening with something that can create stuff 361 00:25:12,079 --> 00:25:15,439 that only people used to be able to write, like difficult things like the music. 362 00:25:15,439 --> 00:25:18,079 Music industry is just like exploding right now. 363 00:25:18,079 --> 00:25:23,639 Right. Like there's just like we don't know what a what a demo is anymore, because this AI company 364 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,840 can crank out a million years of demos in a day. 365 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:28,240 And it's just like, well, what do we do with that? 366 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:29,560 Like, this is not impossible. 367 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,520 It's not possible for a human because we have finite time. 368 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:39,600 And my enjoyment of things like music and short form video, when I see so many videos, 369 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,800 like, you know what, I just don't want to be on this platform anymore. 370 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:43,480 Like, I don't want to be. 371 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,200 I don't want to see the AI slop. 372 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,320 I don't know. No one else put effort into this. 373 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,759 And I think the the effort and knowing that someone cared enough to spend their time on it 374 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:54,960 is sometimes why I care. Right. 375 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:59,839 There's someone like I'm practicing go or whatever to get up to a human level, 376 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:01,680 to get better as a player. 377 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,319 And it doesn't even matter if you're the best in the world. 378 00:26:03,319 --> 00:26:06,879 Right. Like I watch my kids play sports and I'm like, hey, if everyone's at the same level, 379 00:26:06,879 --> 00:26:08,200 it's still enjoyable. Right. 380 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,480 They're not good players, but they all kind of suck in their own way. 381 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,359 And it's fun to watch because it's it's it's actually great seeing a hackathon 382 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,440 when everyone sucks in the same ways. Right. 383 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,759 Like if there's one team in there that's, you know, professional software developers 384 00:26:20,799 --> 00:26:22,799 and like, well, I don't care because they're going to win the hackathon every time. 385 00:26:22,799 --> 00:26:26,119 No, no, no. I want to level the playing fields and I want to know they have fun. 386 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,160 They're learning something and the effort is the same. 387 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,160 But if they're all using it equally, aren't they still doing it at the same level? 388 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,400 You know what I mean? Like if they're all like, because. 389 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,359 I don't know, like, you know what I mean, like if they're all coming in 390 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,240 and they're building something and they're using it to help them 391 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,359 find different ways to do it, like we don't know that they're all using it 392 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:46,359 to write it the same way. You know what I mean? 393 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,200 From my experience, the people that come in that are good at hackathons 394 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,840 are the ones that know you can do something that someone else doesn't know. 395 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,279 Right. It's like if you if you can prompt the AI and say, oh, I actually know 396 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,960 this Linux subsystem or I know that API or I know like these electronics, 397 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,920 whatever it is, like I know this piece better than anyone else here, 398 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:06,600 then I know what it's capable of. 399 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:11,240 So I can prompt the AI to help me get to the edges of how it's used. 400 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,960 And that's where I usually see people succeed is when they reach some edge 401 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,519 of their own understanding to be able to implement it in a certain way. 402 00:27:18,759 --> 00:27:20,920 You ever seen a bunch of college kids use AI, though? 403 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:22,400 It's very interesting. 404 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,279 No, no, but honestly, like it's like it's like when you give. 405 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,440 The reason why I say this is because I really like going to schools 406 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,759 and teaching little kids about like technology. 407 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,319 Their brains are so malleable, right? 408 00:27:34,319 --> 00:27:38,000 Like they have they they have not yet learned the constraints 409 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,680 of like adulthood, rooting or fun. 410 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,599 And the way that they look at like how to solve problems is very different. 411 00:27:44,639 --> 00:27:48,639 Like now we have to be super careful that we don't kill their creativity 412 00:27:48,639 --> 00:27:50,559 and curiosity, right? 413 00:27:50,559 --> 00:27:53,119 But I think that goes in like the education of it. 414 00:27:53,399 --> 00:27:54,079 You know what I mean? 415 00:27:54,079 --> 00:27:58,279 Like I don't I don't seriously like I did you see that thing 416 00:27:58,279 --> 00:28:03,240 about a bunch of game developers talking about how their CEO said 417 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,480 that they're using AI for all their proof of concepts? 418 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,559 And then that artist was like, no, we're not like 419 00:28:09,879 --> 00:28:11,639 use it to explore a couple of ideas. 420 00:28:11,639 --> 00:28:14,119 And then I go draw it the way that I have always done it, you know? 421 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:19,319 And I think like like I was writing like just something that I was going to use 422 00:28:19,759 --> 00:28:22,719 for something else next week, and I wrote it three different ways. 423 00:28:22,759 --> 00:28:25,719 And then I had it tested on a bunch of things, which would have took me forever. 424 00:28:26,159 --> 00:28:28,199 But that just made like work. 425 00:28:28,199 --> 00:28:30,599 Like, for instance, you were talking about content, but like, 426 00:28:30,599 --> 00:28:33,119 what if it's not all AI content generated? 427 00:28:33,399 --> 00:28:36,719 But what if I take a bunch of content of my kids in my life 428 00:28:36,719 --> 00:28:38,599 and sometimes I get AI to help me edit it? 429 00:28:38,599 --> 00:28:41,199 So the editing process is half the time, right? 430 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,600 Like, I think there's still ways that like we're almost going to more appreciate. 431 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,920 Like when you see like the cool like remixes on TikTok, like, cool. 432 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:50,600 It's new music. 433 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,319 Like there's one of Sleep Token and Christmas. 434 00:28:52,319 --> 00:28:54,120 And I was like, this is the best thing I've ever heard. 435 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,840 But honestly, like, am I going to not listen to Sleep Token because that? 436 00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:59,880 No way. Like in. 437 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:02,960 And it's a good thing because you have familiarity with what it, you know, 438 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,640 you you have a connection to the other thing it's remixing. 439 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,000 And you're like, oh, this has a different vibe of nostalgia. 440 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,799 Have you ever heard just regular AI stuff? 441 00:29:10,799 --> 00:29:12,879 Like that there's no relation of that. 442 00:29:12,879 --> 00:29:15,759 There's no aspect. Yeah, there's no color. 443 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,799 Yes. It's like if you looked at member, like it's like if you took the 444 00:29:20,079 --> 00:29:23,119 this is going to be weird because I love photography and I used to do design. 445 00:29:23,359 --> 00:29:26,000 But if you took all of the like color out of the world 446 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,639 and everything was black and white, and I don't mean the beautiful depth 447 00:29:28,639 --> 00:29:31,879 of the back black and white, but like if you did it, like you just pulled it out. 448 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,319 That's it's not the same thing as if you if you did black and white 449 00:29:35,319 --> 00:29:36,839 and like an artistic way. 450 00:29:36,839 --> 00:29:39,279 And it's not the same thing as the world in color, right? 451 00:29:39,279 --> 00:29:41,440 Like it's just kind of like a sad version of it. 452 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,519 Like and I think that human relation is it right? 453 00:29:44,519 --> 00:29:47,920 Like the human relation in music, the human relation of what Cassidy, 454 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,639 because she's gone back and forth to being a developer and she's 455 00:29:50,639 --> 00:29:53,759 and like Devreel and she teaches and she goes to these hackathons. 456 00:29:54,079 --> 00:29:56,960 She has a different relation, even the way that you talk about things 457 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,240 when you're super like into like you'll come up with a book 458 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:01,839 and you'll be like, hey, I just read this new book. 459 00:30:01,839 --> 00:30:04,240 And I'm like, I would have never read that book if you didn't give me that. 460 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,839 No, honestly, like the other day, he he was so excited about something. 461 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,359 And I was like, oh, I've been having the worst tech week, you know, 462 00:30:11,359 --> 00:30:14,480 like I've just said, like, oh, like I don't like, do I even like the stuff anymore? 463 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,359 And he's so excited about it. 464 00:30:16,359 --> 00:30:18,319 It makes me excited about it again. 465 00:30:18,319 --> 00:30:20,199 You know, like, I don't think that you could kill that. 466 00:30:20,199 --> 00:30:23,319 Like and I do think that it's true. 467 00:30:23,319 --> 00:30:25,559 There's times where I look at a post, I'm just like, 468 00:30:25,559 --> 00:30:29,000 if you couldn't bother to write this post, I'm not going to be bothered to read it. 469 00:30:29,439 --> 00:30:34,439 Like I like when it comes to things like writing and music and videos and stuff, 470 00:30:34,439 --> 00:30:36,079 if it's all AI, you can tell. 471 00:30:36,079 --> 00:30:37,199 I don't want all of it. 472 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:38,559 I don't want it. I don't want to hear that. 473 00:30:38,559 --> 00:30:41,360 If you're using it to like better something, maybe. 474 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,000 But if it's just all of that and you gave nothing, I don't want it. 475 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,240 I think like AI is a somewhat decent editor. 476 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:48,600 It's a terrible writer. 477 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,039 I think it's a decent outliner. 478 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,360 I don't want it to fill in the blanks like. 479 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,759 And I think that that's that's where some of the gaps are. 480 00:30:56,759 --> 00:31:03,519 But I feel like we're also in such early days that society is learning that. 481 00:31:03,519 --> 00:31:06,600 Like you can't it's not a silver bullet for so many things. 482 00:31:06,599 --> 00:31:10,519 And I think that like that that is a big part of my job now is figuring out, 483 00:31:10,519 --> 00:31:12,000 like how do we communicate that? 484 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:13,799 Like, for example, we had GitHub. 485 00:31:14,039 --> 00:31:15,279 We're building GitHub Copilot. 486 00:31:15,279 --> 00:31:17,839 There's all of these different tools you can use. 487 00:31:18,159 --> 00:31:23,000 Smart autocomplete chat agents, all these things where they are genuinely helpful. 488 00:31:23,079 --> 00:31:25,119 We don't want to replace developers. 489 00:31:25,519 --> 00:31:28,839 We don't want to take the enjoyment out of coding and creating and stuff. 490 00:31:29,079 --> 00:31:34,319 But we also know that we can help accelerate certain aspects of the process. 491 00:31:34,359 --> 00:31:40,720 How do we communicate that and educate people in the way that will better them 492 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,960 rather than make them feel nervous or gross about it? 493 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,559 Not just that, but just as a developer who's been using Copilot, like it's so 494 00:31:48,559 --> 00:31:54,159 different using like an agent in VS code verse using like the ask version of it 495 00:31:54,159 --> 00:32:00,919 or using it in a browser or using GitHub Copilot CLI, by the way, 496 00:32:01,039 --> 00:32:04,279 GitHub Copilot CLI is fire. 497 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:05,480 Like it is so different. 498 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,039 It's so wild. 499 00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:10,200 I've only used it a little bit, but it's so amazing. 500 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,600 It is a game changer in difference between that and using in the VS code, I think, 501 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:19,080 because it separates it for me and it can go like, I can give it very like direct 502 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,800 like instructions and it'll build something and then I'll go and do my own. 503 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,240 Like, you know, it keeps it separate, but I don't know. 504 00:32:25,279 --> 00:32:28,360 I just think that like we're still figuring it out. 505 00:32:28,399 --> 00:32:32,079 And I think that it's almost like with our buying power, we're also going to make 506 00:32:32,079 --> 00:32:32,959 a lot of these decisions. 507 00:32:32,959 --> 00:32:34,079 Yeah. Right. 508 00:32:34,079 --> 00:32:37,879 Like if you don't buy AI music, they're going to stop making it. 509 00:32:38,399 --> 00:32:40,119 You know what I mean? So like. 510 00:32:40,119 --> 00:32:44,879 Yeah, I think one of the best benefits we have to AI in 2025 has been that it's 511 00:32:44,879 --> 00:32:48,199 really expensive for the people running it, right? 512 00:32:48,199 --> 00:32:50,199 Like they actually have to put a bunch of investment in. 513 00:32:50,199 --> 00:32:53,399 And some of that is offset by VC and government funds and whatever. 514 00:32:53,399 --> 00:32:54,839 It can't be forever. Right. 515 00:32:54,839 --> 00:32:57,159 At some point, you get that Uber tipping point. 516 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,400 Yeah. Where all your rides are no longer VC funded and you're like, 517 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:01,920 oh, how much does this ride actually cost? 518 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:03,000 Like, I don't think so. 519 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,000 I don't think that's where it's going to get interesting 520 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,519 because it is good at some coding projects. Right. 521 00:33:07,519 --> 00:33:11,560 So I think that it'll be worth spending the money to keep that part around. 522 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,240 But when everyone's like, please get rid of the AI music 523 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,200 and we don't want you to write anything or like we have. 524 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,320 We've had auto correct and Grammarly and all kind of stuff for forever. 525 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,440 Like, I think those things people will have to use them 526 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:29,400 and like more sparsely because they won't be free and they won't be cheap. 527 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:31,240 So you'll use them where they actually. 528 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,840 You're going to pay for the things that you actually get benefit from. 529 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:35,960 Exactly. 530 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,720 And hopefully it's not just people paying to not think anymore 531 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:41,960 because I think there's a lot of value in thinking. 532 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,720 And I think that's why it's been free for so long too, though, because if they 533 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:50,039 if they like get you at that carrot, right, where they're like, try this 534 00:33:50,039 --> 00:33:53,720 and also forget how to write things and forget how to think. 535 00:33:53,799 --> 00:33:58,200 And then you're reliant on exactly, which is why I play devil's advocate 536 00:33:58,200 --> 00:33:59,640 with my kids about all this stuff. 537 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,480 And I'm like, well, what do you think about that? 538 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,120 And I like it's always about that critical thinking. 539 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:05,480 Socratic questioning. 540 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,679 Because it's like I think that's the part that like 541 00:34:08,679 --> 00:34:11,960 nobody could ever replace your curiosity, either of you two. 542 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:13,960 That is what makes you who you are. 543 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,159 There's no AI that could be your personality or curiosity. 544 00:34:17,159 --> 00:34:19,320 And I don't think that we're going to lose that as long as we're 545 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,199 cognitive of that being a tool. 546 00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:22,760 You know what I mean? 547 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:24,520 I think you I think you hit on something that. 548 00:34:25,720 --> 00:34:29,720 AI and dev rel, to many extent, like the thing that is valuable 549 00:34:29,720 --> 00:34:31,640 out of it is getting someone else excited. 550 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:37,240 It is to inspire someone to go do the thing that was difficult, right? 551 00:34:37,240 --> 00:34:38,680 Because those things are difficult tasks. 552 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,840 Like if you say here's a blank ID, go make a web page. 553 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:44,840 Most people will be like, I don't know where to start. 554 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:45,560 Right. Like even back. 555 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:49,480 Oh, my God, that's what it helps me with with ADHD, like deer in the headlights. 556 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:51,160 Like I get so overwhelmed. 557 00:34:51,159 --> 00:34:55,159 And then all of a sudden, AI has broken it into like all these different ways. 558 00:34:55,159 --> 00:34:55,719 And it's done it. 559 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:57,480 And I'm like, I don't really like the way you did it. 560 00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:58,759 But I like this part. 561 00:34:58,759 --> 00:35:00,839 But in this part, yes. 562 00:35:00,839 --> 00:35:02,599 And then I'm like, oh, this is horrible. 563 00:35:03,159 --> 00:35:05,480 Dude, it's like I get deer in the headlights. 564 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:06,519 I'll procrastinate. 565 00:35:06,519 --> 00:35:07,480 Like, you know what I mean? 566 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:08,920 Like, but that's not even new, right? 567 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:10,440 Because we've been doing that, like Ruby on Rails, right? 568 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,199 Like templates out the whole website. 569 00:35:12,199 --> 00:35:12,920 That's what I'm saying. 570 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,799 And it's just like, yeah, it's all this information. 571 00:35:15,799 --> 00:35:17,239 It's just the hype cycle. 572 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,039 And getting people excited and enough to say like, hey, 573 00:35:20,039 --> 00:35:22,599 this might be difficult, but you have to figure out some of these things. 574 00:35:22,599 --> 00:35:27,719 I don't know if I showed you, Autumn, I vibe coded like an app called Where to Watch It. 575 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:28,199 Did you see it? 576 00:35:29,079 --> 00:35:30,920 Oh, wait, one more thing before we move on really quick. 577 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:39,239 Your video about Kubernetes, you used a container, water, and some other stuff. 578 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:43,239 And like before this, like you're the only person, like before scale, before this was, 579 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,000 you're the only person I knew that did Kubernetes, right? 580 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:47,559 And I just didn't understand them. 581 00:35:47,559 --> 00:35:48,759 I was like, OK, it's a container. 582 00:35:50,199 --> 00:35:53,559 And the way that you related it to like real life objects, 583 00:35:53,559 --> 00:35:56,599 if an AI has never played with water and whatever, like, yeah, 584 00:35:56,599 --> 00:35:58,840 they can relate it to something and they can give it to you. 585 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,759 But they're not, they've never been a human that held that water that did those things. 586 00:36:02,759 --> 00:36:07,880 So like nobody could ever reinvent the way that you used a random water 587 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:09,639 and other things to tell that story. 588 00:36:09,639 --> 00:36:12,519 Like it's how you tell the story when you got your like glasses 589 00:36:12,519 --> 00:36:15,400 and you could see like different like colors all of a sudden. 590 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,480 Like it's your, you get curious about a subject, you get all excited. 591 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,880 You go out into the world and do something with it. 592 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,760 And then you share it with everyone because that's your personality. 593 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:26,360 And then everybody else is excited about it. 594 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,360 Well, yeah, getting excited, like the color. 595 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,320 I've been colorblind my entire life and I've only been able to see 596 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:33,719 more colors for the last two years. 597 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,840 But the way that you did that changed my like way that we do it. 598 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:41,960 We went to, when we went to do awesome, when I still worked at AWS, we had different cards. 599 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:46,679 We picked the cards differently because I wouldn't have considered colorblindness before then. 600 00:36:46,679 --> 00:36:48,519 And then I was like, oh crap, we have to be careful. 601 00:36:48,519 --> 00:36:50,280 What if someone can't see these? 602 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:51,400 Yeah. Yeah. 603 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:55,079 And like that, that has given me different excitement to go experience more things 604 00:36:55,079 --> 00:36:58,840 because I know what's possible that I can see more shades of red now. 605 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:00,599 And in those contexts, like, oh, cool. 606 00:37:00,599 --> 00:37:02,840 Now I know where my next limit is. 607 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,199 Like I still can't see everything, but I can actually see sunsets better now. 608 00:37:06,199 --> 00:37:09,559 Right? Like those sorts of things are using those tools 609 00:37:09,559 --> 00:37:11,559 to get excited about doing something else. 610 00:37:11,559 --> 00:37:16,920 And that's where I think AI and DevRel fits where the human aspect of DevRel 611 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:21,159 is really to inspire, to tell people about some things that maybe they didn't know existed, 612 00:37:21,159 --> 00:37:26,760 to explain something in a way that is more relatable, that wouldn't be, you know, 613 00:37:28,119 --> 00:37:33,159 next word predicted, but be able to go through like a different surprise of a human aspect 614 00:37:33,159 --> 00:37:36,440 of how this stuff works. But like I was saying, like I, I, I've, I've coded this thing just 615 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,480 because I was starting from, I wanted to do it for a while. 616 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,400 It was an idea that I heard someone else have on a podcast. I'm like, oh, that sounds like fun. 617 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,280 I wish I could do that. Right. But it would take me a long time to do it. 618 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:50,280 I was like, I just have limited time and it still took me time to build. 619 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,680 But I was watching a movie while I was doing it. Right. Like this isn't something that like, 620 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,880 it's not making money. It's not something that's like, so I just wanted to get to the point of 621 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:03,240 how much would it cost me as an individual who knows some of this stuff, do it. Right. 622 00:38:03,240 --> 00:38:08,760 And so far I think I'm like $60 in AI credits in, in a $25 domain. And that's it. Right. 623 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:13,400 So it's like, I'm still under a hundred dollars, which is great because it's taken me a few evenings 624 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,320 of, Hey, like the app mostly works. Is it secure? Absolutely not. Right. Like I don't, 625 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:22,440 there's no, no oddity in this, but it works for me. And I feel like that, 626 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:27,079 I feel like the thing that we're seeing a lot and I think will be an interesting trend. And I say, 627 00:38:27,079 --> 00:38:33,320 we, as in like just my team at GitHub is people are building personal tools so much more because 628 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:39,320 they can kind of vibe it out. And, and I've used so many of my domain names and like dusty side 629 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:46,360 projects on my pile purely because like you said, I, I'm able to get started and I'm able to, 630 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:51,160 to be just like, okay, you know what? I just want this app to exist for me so I can have this tool. 631 00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:55,720 I'm not going to worry about how it's built. I'm not going to worry about anything. I want the 632 00:38:55,720 --> 00:39:00,120 actual final product and I'm able to just do it. Sometimes it just stays in a private repo and it 633 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:06,519 truly is just for me, but it works. And that part has been great. That's still the energy of the 634 00:39:06,519 --> 00:39:12,759 side project, the hackathons, but it's just a different aspect of coming like to it, you know? 635 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:19,239 And I think the, one of the the thesis or the reason this podcast exists is to help people 636 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:26,119 understand the long-term maintenance of software and decisions you make. How does that explosion 637 00:39:26,119 --> 00:39:34,920 of I can make any tool I want affect people in a year when what does that turn into in six months 638 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,760 or whatever? Like, yeah, I can just let a domain expire. Maybe I don't care about it anymore, 639 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:45,639 but I feel like we are so far outpacing anything we've ever done before and we have no people 640 00:39:45,639 --> 00:39:50,280 trained or understanding how any of this is going to be maintained in even a year from now. 641 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,800 I honestly think that's going to be a learning process. Just like teaching junior developers, 642 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,320 like we're going to have to figure it out. It's, it's really hard to maintain something 643 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:03,240 that you didn't write 4,000 lines later. Right. And I think that that's where we need to keep 644 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:08,919 beating the drum as an industry that it's not just about senior devs. We need to like still 645 00:40:08,919 --> 00:40:14,199 level up the people who are early in their careers because those people are the future senior devs. 646 00:40:14,199 --> 00:40:18,839 And again, the roles are probably going to be looking different in a year, two years, five years. 647 00:40:18,839 --> 00:40:23,079 We don't know what it's going to look like, but we need people to continue to enter the industry 648 00:40:23,079 --> 00:40:27,639 and learn, even though it's particularly weird and challenging right now with all of these tools 649 00:40:27,639 --> 00:40:31,639 coming up. It's such a weird place to be in. Like, I feel like you don't even know what you're 650 00:40:31,639 --> 00:40:35,239 shooting for when you are thinking about promotions because you're like, what does that 651 00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:41,400 even look like right now? Yeah, it's also tough. Go ahead. Weird thing that I was thinking of when 652 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:47,079 we were talking about paying kind of like to be able to do a little bit more. Like I got advice 653 00:40:47,079 --> 00:40:52,359 from a GM when I was like first a software engineer at AWS and I was like, how do you like 654 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:58,440 balance being like a good parent and showing up to all your kids' stuff and like being a good spouse 655 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,599 and like still like kicking butt at your career? Like how do you do all that? And he told me 656 00:41:03,159 --> 00:41:09,240 that he contracts out the stuff that he doesn't want to do. So like Instacart and like getting 657 00:41:09,240 --> 00:41:13,000 someone to like clean your house once a month or those kinds of things. And it's kind of funny 658 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:17,800 because sometimes I almost think that's what people, that would be the cool thing of AI, 659 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:21,800 getting it to do the things that we don't want to do or to make our lives easier so we could get a 660 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:27,240 little bit more time with our like side projects or we can get like do things faster because I 661 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:31,639 think that's what we should use it for, you know, to buy you a little bit of time for the fun things. 662 00:41:31,639 --> 00:41:36,199 I just wanted to do my laundry and my dishes. Oh my, I would pay so much money. 663 00:41:37,639 --> 00:41:46,119 I want this. If you want a VC that like that would make so much money, like do you, 664 00:41:46,119 --> 00:41:53,079 do you, I have three kids, Cassidy. My laundry pile haunts my dreams. I only have two and it's 665 00:41:53,079 --> 00:42:00,519 endless. It's endless. The amount I would give a hood rat money, like I would give so much money. 666 00:42:00,519 --> 00:42:05,960 But actually though, like I keep seeing like people saying we're working on a robot that 667 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:11,239 can fold your laundry, but the video's AI. And I'm just like, okay, that's not real. Make it real. 668 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:15,639 I'm begging you. Because I can find out where the socks go because those little socks cost 669 00:42:15,639 --> 00:42:20,360 just as much as regular size socks. And I just want to know like how, like, 670 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:27,800 like, and like, just like if you just somebody could just do the annoying things, like manage 671 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:34,200 where my kids controllers went and like where they lost it or like do laundry or someone. 672 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:35,480 This is the future we want. 673 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:40,360 Can it nag you? Like I'm going to start an app that nags my children and it's like an AI that's like, 674 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:44,599 you haven't taken a shower yet. Your stuff's blown the floor. Like I'm going to just get like. 675 00:42:44,599 --> 00:42:46,280 That's a good vibe coded app idea. 676 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,120 I swear to God, don't play with me. I'm going to go get see if they still have Amazon deep 677 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:55,000 seat cameras and be like, no, there's still stuff on the floor in your room. So I don't have to get 678 00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:59,400 off my butt and walk upstairs and tell them that there's still stuff on the room six times. 679 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:00,440 You know, I just got to start up. 680 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:09,320 And I think about like when was the washing machine, the clothes washer invented, right? 681 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:13,800 Like that was a huge game changer for so many people to be able to automate their work and to 682 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:19,320 do the thing that they didn't want to do anymore. Right. Like that was absolutely just even like a 683 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:24,039 dishwasher clothes. I always talk about like this is this is the original agent in my house. 684 00:43:24,039 --> 00:43:29,080 Right. Like this is the agent that originally like set it all off of like it does stuff for me when 685 00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:32,280 I don't have to do it. And I just set a timer and yeah, I have to change it still. And I have to 686 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:37,480 fold the clothes. But you know, most of the work is already like I don't have to bring it a basket, 687 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:38,039 go down somewhere. 688 00:43:38,039 --> 00:43:43,480 That's why I think it's hilarious. Like there's a disconnect between like the products people 689 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:49,240 want. Right. And the executives who are like farming these ideas, like I just want to know 690 00:43:49,240 --> 00:43:54,599 what they go into like meetings with PowerPoints on because I'm like, there are moms that would pay 691 00:43:54,599 --> 00:44:01,159 you so much money. Like even not even just moms, like there's so many real life ways that we could 692 00:44:03,159 --> 00:44:08,039 you can't see our faces, but if you could see my face right now, the money I would pay you to do 693 00:44:08,039 --> 00:44:14,039 some of the boring like monotonous crap that I have to do every day. If you could just like, 694 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:19,800 there's so many cool and nobody like there's this whole market of how AI could make our lives like 695 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:23,639 easier. And they keep giving us stuff that nobody asked for. And I'm like, 696 00:44:23,639 --> 00:44:26,440 listen to AI music. I want you to fold a shirt. 697 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:31,800 Or like just do something annoying, like go fill out my kids forms. You know what I mean? Like go 698 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:37,079 fill out all their field trip forms and all the like emergency contact update forms and stuff. 699 00:44:37,319 --> 00:44:39,960 You don't want the AI to have that data though. Like that's the other. 700 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,679 Can I run it locally? They have all the data. 701 00:44:44,679 --> 00:44:48,440 Have you seen the stuff the government's doing? That ship sailed. Okay. Go fill out the forms. 702 00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:49,079 I don't even care. 703 00:44:49,079 --> 00:44:53,319 That's actually kind of filling out the forms. So that's a good idea if you got like a pen plotter 704 00:44:53,319 --> 00:44:55,079 and then you just AI to fill it out. 705 00:44:55,079 --> 00:45:01,000 Take something off my plate. That's annoying. I swear to God, the money that people because 706 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:05,159 we're all like millennials are working like 8 million jobs right now. We're trying to be 707 00:45:05,159 --> 00:45:09,239 present parents. We're trying to like heal the trauma that happened. We're all trying to go to 708 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:19,079 therapy, work six jobs, make sour dough. Like, bro, if you take something off my plate, I would 709 00:45:19,079 --> 00:45:25,239 pay you obscene amounts of money. Like that one. This is an ADHD problem. 710 00:45:28,599 --> 00:45:31,079 Look, I got a new printer. I got another one. 711 00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,159 You have two 3D printers now? This is your problem. 712 00:45:35,159 --> 00:45:41,480 Shut up, Justin. What if somebody did some of the adult stuff? Like I have more time than you did 713 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:46,440 stuff. The problem you have is not saying no. And that is like, if you want to outsource saying no 714 00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:50,599 to things, just text me. Have you been talking to my therapist? Shut up, Justin. God. 715 00:45:51,799 --> 00:45:54,199 Come on, man. I thought we were friends. 716 00:45:54,679 --> 00:46:03,879 Anyway, I would, I just gave me some project ideas and I want that. I'm going to go write 717 00:46:03,879 --> 00:46:08,439 an app that nags my children and scans their room. Thanks. Yeah, no, I think I think that'd be neat. 718 00:46:08,439 --> 00:46:10,839 But yeah, that'd be like, get your shoes off the floor. 719 00:46:16,599 --> 00:46:20,679 Let's see your house just have motion sensors in every room with cameras. That's like your control. 720 00:46:20,919 --> 00:46:28,679 You didn't wait a camera to go over in my pantry and be like, put the Nutella snacks down, 721 00:46:28,679 --> 00:46:33,399 put them down. You're on your third Pringles. Leave it alone and go get some carrots. 722 00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:41,799 Some of these are actually very feasible. I grow up. My mind is like, oh, I could do that. 723 00:46:43,319 --> 00:46:47,879 Like I'm about to have IOT devices everywhere. My children are going to be so annoyed at me. 724 00:46:48,039 --> 00:46:54,360 That I'm haunted. They're going to be like, we live in LA, but there's there's such like those kids 725 00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:58,280 that like their mom talks about cybersecurity too much and they're going to be like, and it's 726 00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:03,720 stealing your data. And that's a bad idea because what if it gets hacked by a malicious actor? And 727 00:47:03,720 --> 00:47:08,680 they're going to be like, I live in like a data like prison and like, I want you to stop. 728 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:15,000 This is locally hosted home assistant with local AI models running on a Raspberry Pi through pie 729 00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:18,760 hole or whatever. Just keep listing it off. Just scare people away. 730 00:47:22,599 --> 00:47:24,119 We got down the nerd rabbit hole. 731 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:31,000 I'm about to build so much hood rat stuff from my house over Christmas break. 732 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:37,079 It sounds so good though. And then when this airs in January, you'll be like, yeah, 733 00:47:37,079 --> 00:47:42,280 I did do all of that. That's the real test. Yeah. Mid-January when this lands. 734 00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:49,880 For you. Co-pilot agent will be working very hard. Okay. 735 00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:58,760 Can you make a mom? Like, what if you made an AI agent that was like the other mom, 736 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:04,679 like the mom that just nagged them about us? This is how they come up with those chats that like 737 00:48:04,679 --> 00:48:10,679 speak for certain characters and avatars that we got to, we got to make a little less dystopian. 738 00:48:11,399 --> 00:48:17,399 Damn it. It was a little Terminator. Wasn't it? Like, yeah, this is, this is where the rabbit 739 00:48:17,399 --> 00:48:22,119 hole goes. You got to read. Okay. You're right. You're right. We've come up with all these ideas 740 00:48:22,759 --> 00:48:27,559 in, in whatever 30 minutes we were talking. What is, what does 2026 look like? Where do 741 00:48:27,559 --> 00:48:31,319 we think this is going? What is everyone else going to be doing? What are all the other crazy 742 00:48:31,319 --> 00:48:37,000 ideas that's in 2026? Someone's going to throw millions of dollars and say, yeah, that's the 743 00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:41,239 thing. Unfortunately, I don't think it's going to be folding a shirt. That's not what I think it is. 744 00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:44,119 I don't think this is going to be the time where they throw millions of dollars. I think this is 745 00:48:44,119 --> 00:48:48,760 going to be the time that they realized they wasted millions of dollars. This is the reckoning 2026. 746 00:48:49,639 --> 00:48:55,880 Like they've just lit money on fire. I don't know. I think the runway is a little bit longer. Like 747 00:48:55,880 --> 00:49:00,920 they are burning it very fast. The runway is long. I, I, I'll be curious to see like, 748 00:49:01,639 --> 00:49:06,519 what, yeah, first of all, the, the VCs, the people spending money on this, 749 00:49:06,519 --> 00:49:10,440 are they going to crack down or are they going to? What's the pivot though? 750 00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:14,599 What now that they've decided like gardeners come out and they said 98% of products aren't making 751 00:49:14,599 --> 00:49:19,240 money. Like what's the pivot? How are they now going to start picking the next thing to invest in? 752 00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:25,159 It'd be cool if they listened to their users. Um, but we'll see, we'll see what happens. 753 00:49:25,159 --> 00:49:27,960 Like we've been doing this long enough that we know they don't do that. Okay. 754 00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:32,840 Like first of all, listening to users, seeing like what people are actually using, which, 755 00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:38,440 which tools are going to like bubble to the top and be like the ones that last and which tools 756 00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:43,880 are going to be like, okay, that was a good try. We're done. And I also, I genuinely think that 757 00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:49,960 what we're going to see in 2026 is again, more personal tools. And I'm hoping to see a lot more 758 00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:56,519 like personal blogs and websites, making a comeback, a lot of like decentralized portable 759 00:49:56,519 --> 00:50:01,639 things that people can take from platform to platform as like social media is changing. 760 00:50:01,639 --> 00:50:05,719 The algorithms are changing. All these things are changing. People building on their own 761 00:50:06,599 --> 00:50:12,360 setups more. I feel like I see that as a trend coming. I don't know if it'll come in full force 762 00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:16,679 or if it's in my like indie hacker bubble, but that's, that's what I feel like I'm seeing. 763 00:50:16,679 --> 00:50:22,840 Do you have any advice for, I don't know, future Cassavies out there who are wanting to start that 764 00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:27,640 blog or, cause it's daunting, like writing regularly. 765 00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:34,120 It is, but also you have more in your brain than you think. I literally, 766 00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:38,600 The internet is harsh critics. Like how do you deal with all the critics? 767 00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:43,800 Yeah. And yet people don't listen to you as much as you think. And so I think you're on, 768 00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:48,440 you are your own harshest critic a lot of the times. And there have been so many times where 769 00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:52,120 I'm talking to someone where they're just like, oh, well that course already exists. There's 770 00:50:52,119 --> 00:50:57,960 content on this that already exists, but there's rarely content that exists that speaks the way you 771 00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:04,279 speak. And the way you speak is a special way, which, which sounds like very sunshine and daisies, 772 00:51:04,279 --> 00:51:09,400 but it's true where you never know if your voice is going to be the thing that helps someone 773 00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:14,279 understand something better or helps someone learn better, change their perspective better. 774 00:51:14,279 --> 00:51:17,000 Inspire them to do something else, right? Like that's the, yeah. 775 00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:19,239 Try. Yeah. That's really true though. 776 00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:24,759 And a blog post doesn't have to be an intimidating thing. This is just going to turn into me telling 777 00:51:24,759 --> 00:51:30,119 people they should blog more, but like some of the best blogs I've read, I've read are like 778 00:51:30,119 --> 00:51:34,039 a paragraph long, but it's like a really good insight. And I'm just like, wait, that was good. 779 00:51:34,039 --> 00:51:38,439 I need to bookmark this. I need to remember this. I have tried for so long to tell people like, 780 00:51:38,439 --> 00:51:44,519 don't put a thread of, of multiple posts or tweets or whatever, write a three paragraph 781 00:51:44,519 --> 00:51:48,919 blog post, right? Like it's going to, it's going to exist longer. You'll be able to link it better. 782 00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:50,760 The link will exist. Yeah. 783 00:51:54,039 --> 00:51:57,480 How do you like, one of the things that I always tell people is make it a habit, 784 00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:02,360 figure out when it fits in your time that says, Hey, I'm inspired to do this now. Not only like, 785 00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:06,440 do I have the energy to do it. I have the ability to do it. And a lot of times people are like, 786 00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:10,440 I'm on my phone and I can't type out a blog post. And I'm like, yeah, that's kind of hard 787 00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:14,119 for a little while. You could do it with like medium or ghost or something like that, but it's, 788 00:52:14,119 --> 00:52:19,480 it's still difficult to say like, Oh, I have the ability and inspiration to write something 789 00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:26,279 right now. Right. How do you act on that? I think that is building a habit as a result of 790 00:52:26,279 --> 00:52:31,719 the workflows that you have. And I think that, and this is actually a course I used to teach. 791 00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:37,319 And I kind of want to like, I did it in person and I want to record it of just like developing 792 00:52:37,319 --> 00:52:43,719 workflows for yourself. Because I think a lot of times when we try to start a habit and fail at it, 793 00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:50,119 we get discouraged when we miss a day or something. It's because we haven't built a system for doing 794 00:52:50,119 --> 00:52:54,839 it with as low overhead as possible. We build up this huge system where it's like, I'm going to 795 00:52:54,839 --> 00:52:59,799 create blogs and it's going to follow this perfect template, or I'm going to, I'm going to make sure 796 00:52:59,799 --> 00:53:05,959 everything follows a specific formula every single time without starting significantly smaller than 797 00:53:05,959 --> 00:53:10,599 you plan. And then like add more over time as you get comfortable spreading, spreading out the work 798 00:53:10,679 --> 00:53:15,159 and making it so that that workflow builds up to, oh, this last piece is easy. Because I did a bunch 799 00:53:15,159 --> 00:53:18,920 of little work leading up to it. And that's, I mean, I think a lot of people, a lot of people fail at 800 00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:22,199 personal websites and blogs because every time they want to write something, they have to redesign 801 00:53:22,199 --> 00:53:27,559 it. Exactly. Oh, and I've been a victim of that. But then they're like, use a template and just 802 00:53:27,559 --> 00:53:33,319 start reading. And I've even my newsletter, I've been writing my newsletter now for eight years, 803 00:53:33,319 --> 00:53:38,519 almost nine years now. And it's a consistent thing I do every single week. And it's been, 804 00:53:38,519 --> 00:53:46,519 how do you keep it interesting? I don't know. But like, but what I do is, is over time, 805 00:53:46,519 --> 00:53:51,480 I have a template that I always follow throughout the week. I have different links and I have 806 00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:56,199 different tools where, for example, I'm not paid by any of these tools. This is just what I use. 807 00:53:56,199 --> 00:53:59,719 Raindrop is a bookmarking tool that's cross-platform. It has browser extensions. 808 00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:04,360 This has phone things. Whenever I read an article that I think is good, I bookmark it in Raindrop 809 00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:08,119 and it's all just in a put in newsletter folder. And then when I'm writing my newsletter, I just 810 00:54:08,119 --> 00:54:11,799 pull from that. Whenever I do something where I'm just like, oh, this could be good for the 811 00:54:11,799 --> 00:54:16,039 newsletter, I write it in like a scratch note that I can then put in the newsletter later. 812 00:54:16,039 --> 00:54:19,799 Whenever I see a funny joke, I'm like, ooh, we will add that to the newsletter sometime. And so 813 00:54:20,679 --> 00:54:25,719 I have a workflow where even though it still takes time to write the whole newsletter every 814 00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:29,960 single week, it's yeah, it's spread out. And I've developed enough workflows where 815 00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:35,239 I have the exact same formula that I follow that works well, even if I'm having a tough week, 816 00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:40,599 because it's kind of just- You know, it's funny. To take it all back full circle, 817 00:54:40,599 --> 00:54:46,759 I think that's the thing that the things that AI will be good at is adding to people's workflows 818 00:54:46,759 --> 00:54:50,599 so they can be more efficient. I don't think it's ever going to be- Less context switching. 819 00:54:50,599 --> 00:54:56,759 Yeah. Yes. And I feel like that's the best part is when it's not making you switch contexts as 820 00:54:56,759 --> 00:55:02,279 much, but you're still recording that or putting it away or organizing that thing in the background. 821 00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:08,840 I think that's when it's going to be very- I had a similar workflow with my newsletter that I 822 00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:13,320 stopped doing because the workflow started to get difficult. But Pocket went away, which was my place 823 00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:18,040 to bookmark and find my things and make those notes. And then when Pocket wasn't there, I never 824 00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:22,519 really replaced it. I was just like, oh, all the workflows are gone now. And I use Pocket for years 825 00:55:22,519 --> 00:55:26,920 for so many things. I just had a habit of every Sunday I sat down and read my Pocket queue. And 826 00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:29,960 it was a great workflow because I was like, oh, I don't have to read this during the week. I don't 827 00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:33,800 have to keep the tab open because I know Sunday night I'll have some time and I'm just going to 828 00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:38,840 go read it. And now that hasn't been there. And I feel like I'm missing a big part of that, 829 00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:43,079 what used to be easy workflow now is hard to say, where was that link? What was that thing 830 00:55:43,079 --> 00:55:47,559 I was trying to do? All that stuff gets more difficult. Yeah. Try Raindrop. It's nice. 831 00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:56,360 I have no idea. I have never tried. I was looking for a while to get something that was self-hostable 832 00:55:56,360 --> 00:56:00,920 so I could own the data, which then was like redesigning my blog. And it just ended up being 833 00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:07,400 like this big wrong comparison. That's the danger. I actually just wrote about a blog post where I 834 00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:12,680 was talking about photo backup, where I was going into such a rabbit hole of like, I want to use 835 00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:17,160 open source this, that way I can self-host that, do all these different things. And then I found 836 00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:23,559 an open source hosted solution that gets the job done. And I'm using that. And then eventually I'll 837 00:56:23,559 --> 00:56:28,199 upgrade to something else, but one thing at a time. And I feel like, yeah, accepting those 838 00:56:28,199 --> 00:56:33,320 intermediate steps is hard, but helps with those habits and workflows. That's actually really true 839 00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:37,000 because I feel like that's what gets, like we were just talking about when you get overwhelmed and 840 00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:41,639 you don't actually start, like that's the basis of so many things. Like I feel like my GitHub 841 00:56:41,639 --> 00:56:48,920 pages website has been in shambles for like seven months. Maybe I should use Copilot on that. Like, 842 00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:53,159 can you fix this so I can get to the point I can actually add things? Like, yeah. 843 00:56:53,879 --> 00:56:56,759 My blog is open source. You can use that template if you want. 844 00:56:56,759 --> 00:57:01,079 Sweet. I might take you up on that. Because I just need an easy template. 845 00:57:01,079 --> 00:57:02,359 So I can actually post stuff. 846 00:57:02,359 --> 00:57:03,159 Get started. 847 00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:09,480 That's really cool that you did an open source template. Like I think it's rad that 848 00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:14,679 you can tell that you genuinely enjoy all this and you're like always willing to like share. 849 00:57:14,679 --> 00:57:17,799 Like I like following you on Blue Sky because you're always like, and then I did this cool 850 00:57:17,799 --> 00:57:19,480 thing and it's never like gatekeeping. 851 00:57:20,199 --> 00:57:26,679 Thanks. I do that because I think it's important to pay it forward. Where enough people provided 852 00:57:26,679 --> 00:57:31,960 resources for me as I was learning and growing and doing things that I would rather give things away 853 00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:38,599 that be just like, and this is mine. It's good to learn from all these things. Plus then my future 854 00:57:38,599 --> 00:57:42,519 self learns from it too because I can't tell you how many times I've Googled something and my own 855 00:57:42,519 --> 00:57:44,760 blog post comes up. That's awesome. 856 00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:48,440 Right. Yeah. Right for yourself. Right. The thing that you learned, write it down because you will 857 00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:49,159 find it later. 858 00:57:49,159 --> 00:57:53,240 And that's my favorite thing about community work is the playing it forward aspect because 859 00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:57,000 when people are like, I worked so hard, which we do work hard, don't get me wrong, but like, 860 00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:01,960 I don't think anybody would be there or be around or be successful without other people. 861 00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:04,679 Like I'm always super appreciative of all the people that have helped me. 862 00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:06,760 Yeah. It matters. 863 00:58:09,559 --> 00:58:13,800 Well, thank you so much, Cassidy. Yeah, this has been a lot of fun. I think we kind of went 864 00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:15,559 all over the place, which was great, but also- 865 00:58:15,559 --> 00:58:21,400 That's the best rabbit hole ever. We went from like laundry to like Terminator and like, 866 00:58:22,039 --> 00:58:23,320 I'm going to write some apps. 867 00:58:25,079 --> 00:58:28,119 When this comes out, Autumn, we're going to ping you again. And we'll say, everyone send 868 00:58:28,119 --> 00:58:31,480 Autumn a message and say, ask her if she did it when this episode comes out. 869 00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:34,920 That's a lot of accountability, Justin. 870 00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:37,159 But hey, maybe that's what you need. Maybe that's what you need. 871 00:58:37,159 --> 00:58:41,880 Probably it is. Like Justin will be like, did you do this thing for the podcast? Did you do that? 872 00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:46,840 And I'm like, Justin's- I was like, it's bad when I'm making Justin be the adult here. 873 00:58:50,039 --> 00:58:51,640 That's, yeah, it's fun. 874 00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:56,519 Cassidy, where should people find you on the internet? 875 00:58:57,079 --> 00:59:03,800 You can find me at Cassidy, C-A-S-S-I-D-O-O on most things. Cassidy.co is my website. 876 00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:08,599 Or you could Google Cassidy Williams. There's a Scooby Doo character named Cassidy Williams. 877 00:59:08,599 --> 00:59:11,400 And so I'm not her, but I'm the other one. 878 00:59:12,119 --> 00:59:14,360 Does AI ever confuse that? Is that a problem? 879 00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:18,280 Yeah, actually, no. She's really ruined my SEO, but that's okay. 880 00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:24,680 Also, I love your name, Cassidy. That's like the most adorable thing. And you have it everywhere. 881 00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:30,200 Yeah, my mom made it up. She used to do like, how do you do Cassidy? And it's just stuck. 882 00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:30,599 Oh, perfect. 883 00:59:30,599 --> 00:59:34,280 Oh, that's adorable. It was already cute. And then you made it cuter. 884 00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:41,240 All right. Thank you everyone for listening and we will talk to you again next month. 885 00:59:42,519 --> 00:59:50,519 Bye.