1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:11,120 Welcome to Fork Around and Find Out, the podcast about building, running, and maintaining 2 00:00:11,120 --> 00:00:20,800 software and systems. 3 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:25,220 Hello and welcome to Fork Around and Find Out, the podcast that puts the EB in your 4 00:00:26,020 --> 00:00:29,600 host, Justin Garrison, and with me, as always, it's Autumn Nash. 5 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:30,600 How's it going, Autumn? 6 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,680 Oh, you did this point with the dad joke. 7 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:37,560 Well, you know, today on the show, I'm looking at Duffy right now. 8 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:42,640 We got Duffy Cooley on the show, the field CTO of ISOvalent at Cisco, and he has a big 9 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:43,640 EB-PF shirt on. 10 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:45,040 So, you know, it just, it was there. 11 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:53,480 Okay, y'all, but like, Duffy is, okay, like I met Duffy before I knew how cool he was 12 00:00:53,480 --> 00:00:59,160 and like how much of a legend he was in like, Kubernetes world. 13 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:05,640 And Duffy is like the kindest, nicest, most Buddha and everything is okay person, which 14 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:09,600 is not very, like, I don't know how you do that, like this much in infrastructure. 15 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:15,040 Like everything's always on fire and you're just like, and we're both from Hawaii, I'm 16 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:16,040 a Duffy fan, y'all. 17 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:17,040 Like. 18 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:20,840 What's funny is that a lot of people actually attribute that to being from Hawaii. 19 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:21,840 They attribute that. 20 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:22,840 It is! 21 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:24,400 But then we have an auto. 22 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:25,400 Yeah. 23 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:29,200 She's like, yeah, skip that, skip that. 24 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:36,440 It might be the large amounts of coffee that I drink, but like most people are like, it's 25 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:37,440 going to be okay. 26 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:38,800 And I'm like, no, it's not. 27 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:40,720 And then Duffy's like, it's going to be okay. 28 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:45,320 And I'm like, Duffy said it's going to be okay, so it's going to be okay. 29 00:01:45,320 --> 00:01:49,560 What's funny is I think really what this comes down to, so I grew up in theater, which is 30 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:52,320 another one of those industries in which everything is always on fire. 31 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:53,680 Yep. 32 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:54,680 Right. 33 00:01:54,680 --> 00:02:02,280 And then, and I realized in that experience that adding my own anxiety to the situation 34 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,080 was not going to help me solve literally anything. 35 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:06,080 Yeah. 36 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:07,080 Right. 37 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:11,080 So like the only way that I could really move forward in that environment with all these 38 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:16,280 egos and everything else that was happening was to actually be the calm one. 39 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,720 But it's wild because some people feel like they're gaslighting you when you tell it's 40 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:21,920 going to be okay, but Duffy never gives you that vibe. 41 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:23,120 You know what I mean? 42 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,800 Like some people, they make it worse when they say it's going to be okay. 43 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:30,400 And I'm like, this is not helping, but there's something about you that's genuine. 44 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:31,400 You know what I mean? 45 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:33,200 Like, like you are so kind. 46 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:37,480 Like you would think that like somebody with as much experience and all the cool things 47 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:42,040 you've done and the talks you've given and just the cool things you've done, like you're 48 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:47,480 just such a humble, kind human and you just have like this, just this thing about you. 49 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:51,160 And then when you hear you talking about your wife and your kids, oh my God, like, like 50 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,760 I was a fan before I knew how cool you were. 51 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,920 And then I found out you did all this stuff and it was just like, so cool. 52 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:58,400 I'm a fan. 53 00:02:58,400 --> 00:02:59,720 Well, thank you, Adam. 54 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:00,720 I appreciate it. 55 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,080 So for people that haven't had the privilege of meeting you or talking to you, Duffy, 56 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:05,120 give us a background. 57 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:06,800 Where what started you in tech? 58 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,440 What have you kind of been doing and and then where you ended up now? 59 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:11,920 So I started in tech. 60 00:03:11,920 --> 00:03:17,040 I was kind of I guess the first thing is, you know, from from the whole tech industry, 61 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:21,120 from working in the theater tech industry, I was always interested in technology. 62 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,400 Right. And so I was very fascinated. 63 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,480 And I joined, like the theater situation, like right around the time 64 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:30,200 that moving lights started happening, right, which means that there's a light 65 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,760 instrument that instead of actually having to focus on one place on the stage, 66 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,480 you can actually remotely program that light instrument to point at different parts 67 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,000 of the stage, use different colors and all this other stuff. 68 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:42,840 And that to me was like, I was like, technology is really where it's at. 69 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:44,960 That's what I want to focus on. 70 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,600 When I left Hawaii to come back to California, it was actually much more 71 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:52,400 difficult to get into sound lighting and staging as that it was in Hawaii, 72 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,160 where where I was at the time when I first started. 73 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,240 And so I started getting into computers. 74 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,480 Like in high school, I took I was like the TA for the computer class, 75 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,280 all that stuff, because all of that stuff always made sense to me. 76 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:08,560 And then I moved into in my in my professional time. 77 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,080 I went back and forth between California and Hawaii. 78 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,880 In Hawaii, I was always doing lighting, sound, staging and rigging. 79 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,760 And in in California, I was always doing tech. 80 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,960 Tech stuff, either doing systems administration or network administration, 81 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:23,480 that kind of stuff. 82 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,280 At some point, I got really into tech and I started doing I worked 83 00:04:26,280 --> 00:04:28,240 for a company called North Point Communications, 84 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,120 where I kind of quickly moved up the. 85 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,760 Support letter from a place where I was just doing support for people 86 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,560 who were installing DSL into homes. 87 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,440 I was actually the person they would call to help them 88 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,080 subscribe, align and do all that stuff. 89 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:49,520 I moved up basically up into the the network architecture team 90 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,840 very quickly, because I was able to like understand this stuff 91 00:04:52,840 --> 00:04:54,840 and grow and learn things quickly. 92 00:04:54,840 --> 00:04:57,760 And and that was like, you know, operating ATM networks 93 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,680 that cross the across the U.S. and across the globe. 94 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,160 And then the dot com thing fell apart and I left 95 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,880 and went on the road doing Renaissance fairs for a long time. 96 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:08,440 And then up for years, I guess. 97 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:11,200 This is why Duffy is the coolest. 98 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:15,680 And then I came back and did more network administration, 99 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,240 more systems administration. 100 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,760 And then, yeah, I worked for Juniper Networks for about five and a half years. 101 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,200 And then I had an opportunity to really kind of change 102 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,640 the trajectory of my career. 103 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,000 And I joined a startup, which was called NYSERA, 104 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,000 which was a network virtualization startup. 105 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,800 And it was really a super interesting job because 106 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,720 the opportunity was I was coming to NYSERA 107 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:43,600 after spending six years working on hardware and software labs at Juniper Networks. 108 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,000 So at that point, I had a really clear picture 109 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,120 of a lot of the ways that one can break a network 110 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,400 like pretty much had discovered, you know, because in a lab, 111 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:55,640 you're trying to do that, right? 112 00:05:55,640 --> 00:06:00,520 So like I was able to really understand the troubleshoot 113 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:02,640 and deeply understand what's happening with a network, 114 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,040 regardless of the, you know, the situation we're in. 115 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,400 And so when I went to NYSERA, 116 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:14,480 can we point out that Justin and Duffy both started as like TAing 117 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,440 and support and like figuring things out? 118 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,080 Oh, man, help desk is so is such a wonderful start. 119 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,920 And the people that hire people, please hear this. 120 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,920 You don't always have to have a fancy degree. 121 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:31,240 It is worth so much salt to be able to figure out problems and come from help desk. 122 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,600 Like that sometimes you may not have the avenue to go to a fancy degree, 123 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,960 but kids do have the avenue to get a help desk job. 124 00:06:39,280 --> 00:06:43,400 Please let that be like a way to get in because look at these wonderful 125 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:47,680 technologists here that like you guys are now giants in the field. 126 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:48,600 And where did you start? 127 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:50,840 Help desk, which is something that's accessible. 128 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:52,840 One thousand percent. 129 00:06:52,840 --> 00:06:54,360 Good, I don't agree more. 130 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:56,040 And I didn't I never went to college. 131 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:58,000 I dropped out of high school. 132 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,200 And you still are bad ass and awesome. 133 00:07:01,280 --> 00:07:04,400 And I have a fancy degree and learn so much more in the help desk 134 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:06,080 than I did in my degrees. 135 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,080 It's a while though, because Justin has so much personality 136 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,560 and it's so hard to find like an engineer with personality 137 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,040 and he's got a math degree and you would assume that he's boring, 138 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:16,360 but he's so much fun. Who would have thought? 139 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:21,760 Yeah, but trust me, I think also sees the value in like the people puzzle. 140 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,720 Right. You also see the value in the fact that like no matter 141 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:30,080 how much you know about a technology, if you're not able to communicate, 142 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:35,480 but you know, you're not able to engage with real people about the technology. 143 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:41,080 You're never going to really reach that led to your to both of your success 144 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,120 because you guys do a lot more. 145 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,280 I feel like you both are very good with people 146 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,880 compared to your technical to your typical 147 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,480 technical technological people. 148 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:55,120 I think the humility of help desk for me help me know like I never 149 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,480 I never tried to be like above the help desk, right? 150 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:00,240 Like I'm still even today. 151 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,280 Other engineers that right, like, oh, my God, 152 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,240 some people are so fucking insufferable. 153 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:08,120 It's all just levels of help desk and if you are putting down people 154 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,440 at the front line or people that even even people that come and say, 155 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:13,720 I have a bug and you're like, oh, you're you're doing it wrong. 156 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:15,920 You're you're doing something that's like completely 157 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,440 not the way it's designed to work or whatever. 158 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:20,960 Like it's not their problem, right? 159 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,480 Like we wrote the docks wrong or whatever other engineers. 160 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:28,640 And I think not having that humility and not being able to look at that. 161 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,360 Like what is the word intro, intro, introspective? 162 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,480 No, and when you work in two different fields, 163 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:39,400 it's on my like, I'm thinking about inter or like inter 164 00:08:39,560 --> 00:08:42,440 when you basically take a field like interdiscipline, maybe? 165 00:08:42,680 --> 00:08:43,600 Yeah, something like that. 166 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,640 But it's it's like interdiscipline or something. 167 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,200 It's a word that I was putting somewhere in a doc somewhere. 168 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,880 OK, but like to take like how you said you did like lighting 169 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:57,920 and help desk and to take that and then how those skills affect you. 170 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,000 And like when you come in as a technologist, 171 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:04,480 like I think the like when your engineers on a team lack 172 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:08,200 being able to see other people's skills and how that could bring to a team 173 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:09,640 because engineering is so different. 174 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:11,800 Like you can be doing infrastructure, you can be doing data. 175 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:16,360 There's not always going to be like a one to one, you know what I mean? 176 00:09:16,680 --> 00:09:19,360 And I think that we like, especially right now, 177 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:23,360 and we're trying to do so much more with less being able to figure out 178 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:28,480 how to be force multipliers in your team and to figure out like what skills match. 179 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,680 I think we are going to really mess up not hiring those people 180 00:09:31,680 --> 00:09:35,520 that worked at that help desk that have that background because some of them 181 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:40,680 like Kelsey Hightower, Duffy, Justin, like how many people like don't. 182 00:09:40,680 --> 00:09:44,240 And can you imagine if somebody missed out on the Duffy or Kelsey or Justin? 183 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:45,240 Like that, like. 184 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:47,600 But how'd you go to Hawaii? 185 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:48,480 What made you go to Hawaii? 186 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,080 Tell us about that. That's so interesting. 187 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:56,200 Oh, when I was when my mom and my stepfather when I was six 188 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,520 and my sister was no, I was eight. 189 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,760 My sister was two years younger than me. 190 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,080 So she was six. So we moved to Hawaii at that time. 191 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,920 And it's partially because my stepfather and my mother really loved it over there. 192 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:13,040 And we just they wanted to go live over there. 193 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,280 And so good reason. 194 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:17,800 So my grandma, that's how we all ended up in Hawaii. 195 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:19,560 Definitely a different time. 196 00:10:19,560 --> 00:10:21,800 It was a beautiful time to grow up in Hawaii, 197 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,320 but it's definitely a very different time than like, you know, 198 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,600 even the time that my kids growing up in such a wild thing. 199 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,440 But but yeah, and then at some point, 200 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,960 like I came back to California to live with my father. 201 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,920 And that's where I got into like all the other fun stuff there. 202 00:10:36,560 --> 00:10:39,440 It's crazy because my childhood was very much hopping back and forth 203 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:40,880 between California and Hawaii. 204 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:42,920 So it's really cool to see somebody at the similar. 205 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:45,840 Like I'm like, how many people in California do this? 206 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,920 Oh, man, my roommates in college, three, two of them were from Hawaii. 207 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:51,040 It's wild. 208 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:55,680 Like, like everyone in California, Nevada and in Oregon, 209 00:10:55,680 --> 00:10:58,600 I feel like there's so many of those colleges that we just all like 210 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:01,360 gravitate to towards to. 211 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,040 So what do you do after you did that? 212 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,560 You said Juniper Labs, I think. 213 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:06,520 Oh, yeah. 214 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,640 Then I went to actually Juniper's a big networking company, kind of like Cisco. 215 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:10,360 That's funny. 216 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:12,200 Now I've worked for the two big networking companies. 217 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:13,160 Full cycle. 218 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,680 The so after so, 219 00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:19,800 and I say it was a trippy thing because it was like bringing all of my experience 220 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,520 and understanding and troubleshooting networking and then trying to bring 221 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:27,800 reality to a bunch of really intelligent engineers who were trying 222 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,520 to reinvent networking in the software. 223 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:36,040 So how hard I know how to go wrong, what could go wrong? 224 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,960 But the whole idea of like, you know, so like what I brought to that situation 225 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:44,800 was like, they would write some, they wrote an entire like software 226 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,040 stack that was for networking and I would come into it and say, OK, 227 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,000 but how do I troubleshoot it? 228 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:51,720 Like, how do I understand that this is happening? 229 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:54,240 I'm looking for this behavior on a regular network. 230 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,480 How do I find that behavior on a virtual network? 231 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:57,040 Right. 232 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:01,920 Like, and just kind of helping like bring a real sense of like, 233 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,080 this is how the real thing works. 234 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:06,960 Help me find an analog for that in the virtual thing, 235 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:09,680 which was a wild experience. 236 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,480 And then, yeah, after that, I went off and to 237 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:16,720 after NYSERA, I left and went to Apple for the first time. 238 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:22,080 I worked at Apple for building the very first shared infrastructure at Apple, 239 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,120 which was also a real blast, had a lot of fun there. 240 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:28,800 That was actually all based on Mezos and Heroku. 241 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:34,080 And I also did a bunch of stuff with like NSX and stuff there 242 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:38,480 while I was while I was still at VMware as part of the NYSERA acquisition. 243 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:43,680 And then after Apple, I went to a small company called Illumeo, 244 00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:46,080 which is a network security startup. 245 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:47,960 I was there for a year and then I left, 246 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,880 mainly because I didn't it was mostly it was mostly concerned 247 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,560 about the shape, the the forward direction of the product. 248 00:12:55,560 --> 00:12:57,880 I was like, I wasn't super happy with it. 249 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:02,840 And so I left and went and did, you know, the next thing, which was. 250 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:06,400 I guess back where was that? 251 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:11,880 So I went then to CoroS. 252 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:15,880 And CoroS was an amazing experience. 253 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,120 So basically because of my experience at Apple, I was like, 254 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,640 I basically called CoroS up and was like, hey, you should hire me. 255 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:23,480 And they're like, why? 256 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,400 And then they allowed me to come in for an interview and I met Redbeard 257 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:30,240 and I met a bunch of other absolute amazing people in our industry. 258 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:35,600 And they were very happy to see me come in an interview. 259 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,320 And but they hadn't they didn't know me for a minute, Adam. 260 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:39,680 And I didn't really know Kubernetes. 261 00:13:39,680 --> 00:13:42,720 I just saw that there was a lot of opportunity in Kubernetes, 262 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,320 because when I was looking at the Kubernetes ecosystem at that time, 263 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:51,000 I was like, oh, my gosh, this is like OpenStack was back when OpenStack was very little. 264 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,080 I saw this like API driven architecture. 265 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,880 I saw a lot of people really jumping on board and bringing their own ideas 266 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:58,600 and building a whole community around it. 267 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,280 And I was like, that's the next train. 268 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:02,040 Got to go, right? 269 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,280 Like I want to go work on Kubernetes and who better to work on Kubernetes? 270 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:07,440 With then CoroS. 271 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,840 So I think that's so legit, legit and a good, 272 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,560 a good thing to pass down to the next generation, 273 00:14:14,560 --> 00:14:20,000 because a lot of working in tech really is like doing a thing, doing it well. 274 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:21,840 And then being like, what is the next train? 275 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:23,880 Because that's kind of the cycle and how to survive. 276 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,400 I think that's almost like it would be nice to hear you elaborate 277 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,440 on if you have any advice on that. 278 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:32,600 Yeah, I think I think I think you're spot on. 279 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,640 It's like, you know, like when, you know, I feel like everybody 280 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,200 on this podcast is a lifelong learner, right? 281 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,560 Somebody who is constantly evaluating what's happening in the space, 282 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:45,840 constantly evaluating what's happening, you know, like new technologies, 283 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,680 what's happening with AI, what's happening, you can hate on it. 284 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:49,480 It's all good, right? 285 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,560 But like it doesn't mean you get to like completely disconnect 286 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:54,760 from like what's actually happening in that space, right? 287 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,200 Like you still have to like be aware of what's happening 288 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,240 in the different technology realms in which we work, 289 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:04,360 because really good stuff comes out of it, regardless of like, you know, 290 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:06,600 whether we whether we believe it's the right direction. 291 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,760 There's some really interesting stuff as a technologist to follow along. 292 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:15,880 And then when you see one, yeah, it's really it works with my ADHD so well. 293 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,280 Right. And then when you see one that you're like, very excited about 294 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,480 that really connects with you as a technologist, then you're like, 295 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:23,840 well, how do I get involved in that? 296 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:28,480 And honestly, there's more ways to get involved in that stuff now 297 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:29,680 than there have ever been, right? 298 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,600 Thanks to open source, thanks to big communities like the CNCF. 299 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,320 Thanks to like thanks to just so many different. 300 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,120 There's so many there's so many doorways into these things 301 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,720 that they were when we were younger, right? 302 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,440 Like, I feel like it used to be advocated for yourself to get a job, 303 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:47,280 though, like, you know what I mean? 304 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,400 Like, because that takes a lot of guards. 305 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,400 Yeah, definitely. 306 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,280 Those communities used to be private meetups. 307 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,800 Like you had to be in a location, you had to know somebody 308 00:15:57,800 --> 00:15:59,680 to be able to like get in the door. 309 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:04,520 And even when I think back of like the the older days of technology, 310 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:05,400 like, 311 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:11,400 Wozniak just called up a Packard, like Hewlett Packard, right? 312 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,800 He just called them and said, hey, can I have can I have a job? 313 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:15,200 And they're like, yeah, like that's like one of his stories. 314 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,280 Like, yeah, I just found them in the phone book and called them and said, 315 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:18,920 give me a job. I said, yeah, we'll go ahead. 316 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:20,840 You can come on over and interview. 317 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,200 And like those sorts of like stories are like have happened over time, 318 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,840 but it's always like someone you knew that got you in the door. 319 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,200 And now like those communities have expanded and are hopefully 320 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,480 a little more friendly to let people that don't have a background say, 321 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,360 hey, if you want to show up and do some work, here's a bunch of first 322 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:37,720 first issues that you can you can try. 323 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:39,400 I love you guys. Exactly. 324 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,200 No, it's a little different when you're a woman. 325 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,760 I think that we are like really in a not even just a woman. 326 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:48,680 Like I think that because of the layoffs and because of where we are, 327 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,080 maybe open source might sort of be that way still. 328 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,200 But I think that it's like people want you to. 329 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:55,760 I don't know. 330 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,640 Like I feel like we're really in that point where like I know that we need 331 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,560 to earn trust right when it comes to like being engineers. 332 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,680 But like I hope it doesn't push us back into more gatekeeping ways. 333 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:07,200 You know what I mean? For sure. 334 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,360 Like I think that like right now, so much of the hiring is like, 335 00:17:10,360 --> 00:17:13,720 how fancy is your degree? How many like like some of like, 336 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,000 do you remember when they used to ask if you had an experience in a language 337 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,000 but they asked for experiences longer than the language existed? 338 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,000 It's that times like a hundred, you know? 339 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:28,760 And I think that like open source is like, yes, like I love I'm a proponent 340 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,080 of open source, but it's hard to figure out where you fit in. 341 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,080 Maybe do you guys have any advice on like maybe people that are 342 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,440 starting how to figure out where you fit into those communities? 343 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,160 Yeah, I think I mean, from my perspective, I think. 344 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,040 It comes down to those communities again, right? 345 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:52,080 If you can find an area of technology, whether that's infrastructure 346 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:56,760 or, you know, programming and go or solving an audio problem 347 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:00,960 in some program or video editing or like, you know, something like that. 348 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,960 Then the question is like, how do you actually connect with a community 349 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,280 that's based around that thing that you're interested in? 350 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,840 And even if you don't like show up at like, you know, 351 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:13,800 I mean, there's a couple of different ways into that. 352 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,040 Like some of those things, many of those things these days will actually have 353 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,520 like community hours and those sorts of things where you could actually show up 354 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:26,280 and just be part of it and ask questions and, you know, like kind of do the people 355 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,200 part of it and then there's other opportunities where like it's just 356 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,360 to point it out like the good first issue and that sort of stuff. 357 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:37,560 And what this does is it does a number of really, really good things for you as a person. 358 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,760 Like one of the things it does is it makes you actually start thinking 359 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:46,800 about the problems that that software system or infrastructure has, right? 360 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,000 In a way that is more real because you're actually in there trying 361 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,520 to actually solve real problems and encoding or if you're actually trying 362 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,400 to solve real problems and communication or like whatever it is that you're working on, 363 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,760 you're actually interfacing with that real, that real thing. 364 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:04,680 And that puts you in my mind, in my mind, it kind of puts you in a better mindset around 365 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,960 like, what is this really going to be like when I decide to do this? 366 00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:11,920 Or if I get fortunate enough to actually have a job in it? 367 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:13,880 Like, what's that going to really be like? 368 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,360 Like having that exposure really changes it. 369 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:24,600 I wish that open source projects also saw the awesome opportunity in new people 370 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:29,360 because when you write docs, but you've used something for forever, 371 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:30,800 the docs are never good. 372 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:32,280 I don't care what you say, they're just not. 373 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,400 When you get new people to try your docs, they find bugs 374 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,120 that nobody will ever find if they know, right? 375 00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:41,360 Like those new people are such an opportunity to make things better 376 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,400 that I wish that that's how we approach the situation. 377 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:46,440 Like, there's something I really liked about your website. 378 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:51,920 And you say, like, you talk about how you see, like, how you bring a different perspective. 379 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:53,600 What is it on your website? 380 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,560 It's something about, like, perspective and you make things, like, easier. 381 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,280 And I thought, like, that's so, like, legit, though. 382 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,680 As Duffy opens his website to check what it was. 383 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,080 It has been a minute since I was there. 384 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,040 Making things possible and sometimes easier. 385 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:16,120 Yeah, I think there's something else that you had in a talk somewhere 386 00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:18,320 and it talked about, like, how you see perspective. 387 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:19,480 And that's so real, though, right? 388 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,880 Because there's always different ways to build things or go about things. 389 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,200 But I think the way that you switch your perspective is so real. 390 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:27,960 Yeah, for sure. 391 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,880 And I think it's also, but I do feel like it kind of comes a little bit later, 392 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,280 but that's definitely a big part of the people puzzle. 393 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:38,600 Another way to put that is if you can't teach a thing, then you don't understand it. 394 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:40,600 Oh, that's so real. 395 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:45,720 Right, because, like, if you, like, and that, that's where the source of that was for me. 396 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:51,720 And so the idea of the idea of that is that I can only ever understand 397 00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:54,640 a problem with the tools at my disposal. 398 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:59,040 So my own eyes, my own brain, my own hands, I can understand that problem only so far. 399 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:04,440 But then as soon as I tried to describe the problem that I have to someone else 400 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,240 and they go, oh, well, what about this? 401 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,680 Or what about that? Or have you thought about this? 402 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,400 Boom, right? Like, I'm learning more in that moment 403 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:17,840 than I would ever have been able to learn without those questions, without that perspective. 404 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,160 But so that's why I love giving talks. 405 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:20,960 Yeah, exactly. Right. 406 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:22,800 People come up and they ask you questions. 407 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,120 And also, even if you're giving talks with, like, someone else, 408 00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:28,880 just just the two of you, like, giving a talk, you have two perspectives. 409 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,400 That's already twice as much perspective as when you started, right? 410 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:33,640 Like, it's that. 411 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,000 But yeah, for me, it's like, I can only learn. 412 00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:40,920 I can't learn more about a thing without somebody else asking me those questions 413 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,000 or trusting me to ask those questions. 414 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,800 That's why Paraportal Programming is also really good, too. 415 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:47,520 How did you get into Kubernetes? 416 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,640 Like, how did you go from, wow, this is cool. 417 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:54,000 And I think this is the new train to, like, being like, you are, like, 418 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:55,840 huge in the Kubernetes community. 419 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,440 Like, how do you get to the point of, like, learning and becoming 420 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,360 that subject matter expert in something new? 421 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,400 So, ironically, so, I mean, it was already very good 422 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,000 with infrastructure and distributed systems. 423 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,600 I spent years on Mezos, and I'd already, I've done a bunch with OpenStack. 424 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,720 I've been working on network virtualization. 425 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,480 I've done a bunch of things in distributed systems over time. 426 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:19,600 So, I had already built up a lot of intuition about how these systems should work. 427 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,800 And I, and also a lot of intuition around how to go and learn about a system, right? 428 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,920 So, learning about Kubernetes for me was, okay, let's understand the components. 429 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:29,080 Let's break them down. 430 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:30,880 Let's understand what each component does. 431 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:33,200 And then that was one thing. 432 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,480 But again, like, I can only ever understand it with my own experience, right? 433 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:42,560 So, the next thing I went to was, while I was at CoreOS, I joined the Kubernetes Slack. 434 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:48,920 And in the Kubernetes Slack, there's a room where everybody asks questions 435 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,560 that they have run into that they don't understand or some particular idea 436 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,200 that isn't working or whatever it is. 437 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,280 And it's still there, and it's still a very busy channel, probably one 438 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:57,960 of the busiest Slack channels I've ever seen. 439 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:04,240 And for a long time, like, for about six or eight months of the year 440 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:09,360 that I was at CoreOS before it was acquired, I was answering all of those questions. 441 00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:12,760 So, every question that I saw in there that I thought was a question 442 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:17,000 that I didn't already know an answer to, I would go and figure it out and then come back 443 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,840 and give the answer and also describe how I figured it out, right? 444 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,760 Like, you know, this is how I went about finding this out, 445 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,440 or this is where I found the answer, or this is what the answer is, et cetera. 446 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,680 Like, it just kind of was answering all of those questions. 447 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,360 And that really expanded my brain on what Kubernetes says. 448 00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:37,920 It really got me to a place where I understood the project, the people, 449 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,360 like what was actually happening with the code base, everything about that, 450 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,640 because I was deeply immersed in answering interesting technical questions, 451 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,840 helping solve bugs and do all of that stuff with that. 452 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:55,360 And CoreOS was very willing to let me build that presence, because it really, 453 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,120 I mean, one of the weird little industry secret things, I guess, 454 00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:06,720 it's not really a secret, but if I spend my time in a public space teaching 455 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,880 and welcoming and making people feel like they're, 456 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,000 that they should be a part of the community and being technical 457 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:18,320 and doing all of that stuff, when I show up in a pre-sales conversation, 458 00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:23,960 my job as a pre-sales engineer is to bring credibility to that conversation. 459 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:27,840 Job done. I've walked into the room. 460 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,560 Right? Like, people already know who I am. 461 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,680 They already know that I believe strongly in the thing I'm doing. 462 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,120 These are the things that people really want to see when they go approach 463 00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:40,640 some new product to determine whether that product will be right fit for them, 464 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,960 or whether they will get any value out of it, right? 465 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,800 So for me, that was like, that was one of the big moments where I realized, 466 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,200 you know what, if I can do the thing that I love to do, 467 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:53,760 which is this whole engagement part, and it really helps me do the thing 468 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,560 that I'm paid to do, which is the pre-sales part. 469 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,200 I was trying to, like, write a blog or a talk, and I was writing about, like, 470 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,480 the different ways that contributing to open sourcing community 471 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,560 is actually a great way for corporations to get a return on investment 472 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:13,840 and by allowing your corporate employees to have hours to work on those things. 473 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,000 And I feel like that really goes back to it. 474 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,440 I was focusing on more, like, maintaining, 475 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,480 and the fact that when you have, like, a group of multiple companies 476 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,680 maintaining software is easier, and you can do it with less people, 477 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,680 and kind of how much we get from the infrastructure that is 70% open source. 478 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,440 But that is also, like, very true. 479 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,640 Like, you've earned trust with an entire community, you know, 480 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,360 and they know that you're not just selling them something. 481 00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:39,440 So, like, that's so amazing. 482 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,280 Have you ever struggled with imposter syndrome, Duffy? 483 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,320 Yes, I have struggled with imposter syndrome. 484 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,960 But I will say that, like, I think it's a little bit like dancing, you know? 485 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:56,560 It's, like, one of those things where, like, everybody, 486 00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:58,960 like, nobody's good at it when you start out. 487 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:04,560 Like, it's one of, it's like, and so I think I did come to kind of a reasonable conclusion of 488 00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:14,160 I don't really want to, like, let the concern that I'm not going to be good enough be a problem. 489 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,160 And so instead, I tell myself every room I walk into, 490 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,800 every problem I engage with, I can improve that problem. 491 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:29,920 Right? And that primes my brain to think that no matter the situation, 492 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,400 I'm going to leave it better than I found it. 493 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:39,680 Right? As opposed to allowing my brain to prime itself in which it'll say, 494 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,320 you're going to walk in here and fall on your ass, right? 495 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,880 Like, I mean, like, you know, instead I'm going to walk in here 496 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,640 and I'm going to make it a better situation than it was when I, when I walked, before I walked in. 497 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:50,240 I love that. 498 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:55,600 And I'm not saying that that works for everybody. 499 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,440 I'm certainly not, I like, I understand that anxiety is a very different thing. 500 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,720 And I'm not, I'm not trying to say that, like, all you have to do is this. 501 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:02,960 Oh, no, that's still how you do it. 502 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,760 No, it's just that being, like, that's not where I'm going at all. 503 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:07,360 Yeah. 504 00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:11,200 You know, like, simply, one simply just decides. 505 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:12,720 So I'm going to tell, no, it's not really that, you know. 506 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:13,360 But I like that. 507 00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:19,040 I love the quote of, like, leaving the world a better place than, like, how you found it, though. 508 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:20,800 So I like how that kind of ties into that. 509 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:24,720 Yeah. 510 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,440 So that was how I got into the expertise side of the Kubernetes side of things, 511 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:30,880 which was really a blast. 512 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:32,480 It was like such a big learning time. 513 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,480 And then I went from CoroS when it was acquired by Red Hat. 514 00:27:37,120 --> 00:27:40,720 And it became basically the thing we were building at CoroS was called Tectonic. 515 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,560 And that became OpenShift 3. 516 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:45,360 Is that right? 517 00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:46,400 3 was the first. 518 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,240 I think 4 was the first one that shipped with the operators that Tectonic had. 519 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,320 And then, but I never worked for Red Hat. 520 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,160 Like, I decided that I didn't want to continue with Red Hat. 521 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,800 And so on my way to New York to go and interview for a job at Red Hat, 522 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:02,800 I also stopped at Heptio and interviewed there. 523 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,400 And I met Chris Nova, rest in peace. 524 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:11,360 And I met Joe Vita and Craig McClecky and so many amazing folks. 525 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,320 And I, so I interviewed there and then I flew to New York for this other thing. 526 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,600 And I decided already that I was going to go to Heptio. 527 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,200 I wasn't going to go to work for, but I hadn't received an offer yet. 528 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:25,360 And so I'm in New York. 529 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,000 I've decided I don't want to do this. 530 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:33,440 My very good friend Stephen Augustus is like working with at CoroS with me. 531 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:39,280 And, and Stephen decides that the job that I don't want is the one that he wants. 532 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:40,880 And I'm like, oh, we're making this happen. 533 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:47,360 So I spent the whole week positioning Stephen, right? 534 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,800 Like basically showing that I trust Stephen implicitly, right? 535 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:55,520 Like everything I did that week was really kind of setting up that situation. 536 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:57,680 And then at the end of the week, I was like, you know, 537 00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,200 I think this really isn't going to be for me. 538 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:00,720 I'm going to go and do something else. 539 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,120 But you should really consider Stephen for this role. 540 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,920 And, and they're like, well, we can't because you have it. 541 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,000 So the only way that we could do that is if you resign. 542 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,000 I love there's two things that we need to pull out of this. 543 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,240 One, Chris Nova's like her legacy is so amazing 544 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,960 that it's come up with so many people on this podcast 545 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:24,640 that I didn't know her personally. 546 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,320 But I feel like I almost did by the fact that she's touched so many other people. 547 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:33,200 Also, the fact that you played it for it and helped out your friend 548 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,360 and like took care of your friend is so legit. 549 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,440 Like that is like having good friends in this community 550 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,640 and like helping your friend out is just like, 551 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,080 obviously Stephen's amazing at things, you know what I mean? 552 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,480 But the fact that you knew like, hey, this isn't for me, 553 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,280 but I had known someone like that would be perfect for this. 554 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:52,320 Can we have more of that? 555 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,080 Because that is so top tier, right? 556 00:29:54,320 --> 00:30:00,080 And I know without reservation that Stephen would absolutely do the same thing 557 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,080 in the opposite thing, right? 558 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,000 And it really even wasn't about that for me. 559 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:05,280 It was just about the fact that I was like, 560 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,120 I see this opportunity to help my friend. 561 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:08,160 I'm going to go do that. 562 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:13,360 And then so that left us with a situation where I'm now without a job, 563 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,320 without pros, I have a prospects, right? 564 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,160 Like I'm waiting for an offer or whatever, 565 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,840 but I'm without a job, I'm in New York, I have my flight back, 566 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,760 I have my flight back, but I'm no longer an employee of CoroS or Red Hat. 567 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:31,600 I've turned in my laptop, I'm like, well, that's the show, you know? 568 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,280 And then I fly back home and my wife, 569 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,800 who has got to be one of the most patient people on the earth, right? 570 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,000 Because she already knows that I'm in this tumultuous situation 571 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,880 where I'm like likely things are going to change pretty soon and pretty rapidly. 572 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:48,560 But she's like, you know, I'm good with it, whatever. 573 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,000 Like, you know, just let me know how it's going. 574 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:51,040 Give me some heads up, you know? 575 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,920 And I'm like, well, I didn't work out, you know? 576 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,960 Like, I'm in New York, and I'm quitting like right in five minutes. 577 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,680 I'm going to quit, like, now. 578 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,240 Duffy was like, so what happened was... 579 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:07,440 She's like, where are you going? 580 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:08,400 Like, what's your next job? 581 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:09,920 And I'm like, well, I'm working on it, you know? 582 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,120 That must have been just a tiny bit scary, Duffy. 583 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,400 It was probably safer for you to be in New York at the time. 584 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:18,800 A little bit. 585 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:25,280 But she's very, like, she strongly believes that I will work it out, 586 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,040 which is one of those things where I think... 587 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,480 You don't have that in a relationship, Duffy. 588 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:31,280 So cute. 589 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:32,240 It is so cute. 590 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,280 It's interesting, too, that you mentioned, because like, 591 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,240 I feel like in at least the cloud native space, 592 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,760 Heptio had the same CoreOS vibe, right? 593 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:42,960 Like a pre-acquisition. 594 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:47,120 It was kind of the spiritual successor of where would CoreOS go next? 595 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:48,640 The spiritual successor, I love that. 596 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,360 And that was very much a Heptio kind of... 597 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,280 Even at CoreOS, like, Joe came to CoreOS in the SF office, 598 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:56,400 and I met him there first. 599 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,800 And I met Chris there, and I met a bunch of other... 600 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,440 They knew that they were closely connected, even as companies. 601 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,000 When Heptio was starting up, right? 602 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,800 Like, Joe came and talked to Brandon and Alex Pulvi 603 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:12,960 about, like, what they were doing. 604 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,720 It was all the way open between the two companies. 605 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:17,860 Sure. 606 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:19,920 So that was definitely part of it for sure. 607 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:21,520 I agree with you on the... 608 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,880 However, I will say that at CoreOS, 609 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,360 there was so many things that CoreOS were working on, 610 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,040 that I felt like it was only... 611 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,120 Like, as a technologist, I was like, 612 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,880 it's only a matter of time until something that we're working on 613 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,360 becomes the thing that pays the bills, right? 614 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,360 Like, that is a huge move forward. 615 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,720 At Heptio, it didn't really have that same sense. 616 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,720 Because at the end of the day, at Heptio, 617 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:55,040 I felt like I, personally, was the product, right? 618 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,560 It was myself, Josh Rosso, there were several of us, right? 619 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,960 But, like, fundamentally, Carl Danly, like, 620 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:01,920 we were the product. 621 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,000 We were the field engineering team at Heptio, 622 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,920 and we were the thing that Heptio was putting in the market. 623 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,080 Right, because Heptio was a consulting company, 624 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:11,360 not a product company. 625 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:12,960 But they wanted to be a product company. 626 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,120 The thesis behind Heptio was, 627 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,040 they had so much expertise already around Kubernetes 628 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,240 that they could come to market as a consulting company, 629 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,000 use the learning from that to develop products 630 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:27,360 and become a product company. 631 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,080 The interesting challenge is that, 632 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,240 in the market that we all operate in, 633 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,520 if you present yourself as a consulting company, 634 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,520 you are henceforth seen as a consulting company. 635 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,080 You can't just one day change your mind, 636 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:43,920 wake up and be a product company. 637 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,640 Like, that's, it's a very different go-to-market, 638 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:47,840 it's a very different, like, 639 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,440 it's a lot of very key intrinsic differences 640 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,040 in the way that people even think of you 641 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,360 when they're out there, like, looking for who, 642 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,200 who's going to help them do whatever it is. 643 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:58,400 That's also really interesting, 644 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,960 because it's almost like the chicken before the egg, 645 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:02,240 or the egg before the chicken, 646 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,640 because you're just assuming that this knowledge 647 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,320 will then create a product. 648 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,560 But what if the product's already an open source product 649 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:10,720 and they're just then consulting on it? 650 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:12,720 I mean, to be fair, like, some of the products 651 00:34:12,720 --> 00:34:15,120 that we developed at Papdeo are still going strong. 652 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,920 And their company's long, you know, like Valero, 653 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:20,640 a lot of the early stuff, 654 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:22,640 a lot of the stuff that Gateway API is based on 655 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:24,240 came from Contour. 656 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,120 Like, there's a bunch of stuff that we worked on there 657 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,440 that, like, really became the way forward 658 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,960 for a lot of interesting technology in our space. 659 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:34,880 And do you think just the way that it started 660 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:36,480 just didn't set that up for success, 661 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:37,920 even though the product was good? 662 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,320 I think that, I think that really, 663 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:46,240 I think the company itself was not a product company, 664 00:34:46,240 --> 00:34:49,440 despite the desire to be a product company. 665 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,680 I think the company itself went to market 666 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,240 and did everything else as a consulting company. 667 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:57,600 And when they tried to make that, 668 00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,600 and they, I think they were, 669 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:01,680 we were kind of like having conversations 670 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,000 and stuff around like what it would take 671 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,000 to kind of change that when we were acquired by VMware. 672 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:10,000 Oh, okay. 673 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:13,600 So, two very fast years. 674 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,400 I actually got acquired at CoreOS and at Heptio, 675 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,960 both in the same tax year, which was dumb. 676 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:21,920 Wow. 677 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:22,560 Yeah. 678 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:23,600 You're a poor accountant. 679 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:24,480 It was fast. 680 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,400 And the VMware side of it, 681 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,080 because like VMware had, 682 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,400 where they turned the Heptio stuff into Tanzu, 683 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,480 or they had Tanzu in it, 684 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,400 I don't remember exactly the, 685 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,040 the before, before the Heptio acquisition, 686 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,720 VMware and VMware and Pivotal worked together 687 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,000 to develop a technology that was called PKS, 688 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:49,760 or Pivotal Governing to Service. 689 00:35:50,720 --> 00:35:52,000 And that was based on Bosch. 690 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:52,960 And it was like their own, 691 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:54,000 the thing that they had built 692 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:55,200 in conjunction with Pivotal. 693 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,360 Pivotal, if you weren't aware, 694 00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,360 Pivotal was a spin out of VMware. 695 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:01,840 So the relationship between the two companies 696 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,000 has always been very strong. 697 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,720 So, so that's what they had developed before it. 698 00:36:06,720 --> 00:36:07,600 And when we came in, 699 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,600 and we started a brand new effort, 700 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:10,720 which was Tanzu. 701 00:36:10,720 --> 00:36:13,680 Tanzu was all of the work of Heptio 702 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,120 coming into VMware 703 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,600 and creating this new construct 704 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,040 of like, how are we going to build 705 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:20,400 a single control plane 706 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,400 for multiple Kubernetes clusters? 707 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:23,280 That was actually a product 708 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,680 that we were developing as a product at Heptio 709 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:26,480 when we were required. 710 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:30,880 It was a, you know, 711 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:32,800 working with the VMware team 712 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:34,960 that was actually trying to develop a 713 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,200 Kubernetes offering on top of vSphere. 714 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:39,200 And that was at the time 715 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:40,480 it was called Project Pacific. 716 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:41,920 So we were working with them 717 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:42,960 to kind of turn that into 718 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:44,480 more of a cluster API model. 719 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:46,000 Because at the time in the original design, 720 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,040 they were thinking of each vSphere machine, 721 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:50,480 each vSphere host, 722 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,040 as a single cubelet, 723 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:53,760 which was wild. 724 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:55,760 And then they were like, 725 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:56,560 yeah, but you could, 726 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:57,600 because you're, you know, 727 00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,040 a VMware offering, 728 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:00,480 you could say, you know, 729 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:01,840 you could actually develop 730 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:02,720 a different mechanism 731 00:37:02,720 --> 00:37:03,760 leveraging cluster API 732 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:04,640 that will allow you to create 733 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:06,240 task-based clusters 734 00:37:06,240 --> 00:37:07,200 on top of that whole thing, 735 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:07,840 instead, 736 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:09,040 with a slightly different interface. 737 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:09,680 So we worked with them 738 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:10,400 to develop that. 739 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:12,080 We did a bunch of there. 740 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,000 And then Pivotal was 741 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:15,440 acquired back into VMware, 742 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,360 which was a Pivotal moment. 743 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:20,000 That's wild. 744 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:21,920 Yeah, if you will. 745 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:25,040 Oh my God, Duffy, 746 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:26,480 just dad joked you. 747 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:27,600 Like, he just, 748 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:29,120 he just dad joked you. 749 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:29,440 I mean, 750 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:31,120 the thing about dad jokes 751 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:31,920 is they have to be bad, 752 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:33,360 but also they have to be easy, 753 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:33,600 right? 754 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:34,720 It just has to be right there 755 00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:35,520 and he just grabbed it. 756 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:36,160 So it's totally, 757 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:37,280 it was so good though. 758 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:37,920 Like, I just, 759 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:39,120 I'm so proud of you, Duffy. 760 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:40,720 It was definitely a Pivotal moment. 761 00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:41,280 It was so, 762 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:42,000 it was wild. 763 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:43,760 Y'all met Justin's face. 764 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:44,160 He was like, 765 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:45,280 did you just dad joke me 766 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:45,680 on my own? 767 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,000 But like, yeah, it's great. 768 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:50,800 So they came in, 769 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:52,240 we were, 770 00:37:52,240 --> 00:37:53,520 Heptio was, 771 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:53,920 I think, 772 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,520 like maybe 75, 773 00:37:57,520 --> 00:37:59,040 80 people when we were acquired. 774 00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:02,400 And Pivotal was 775 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:03,760 an entire organization. 776 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:06,560 With offices in multiple states, 777 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:08,960 like it was a lot of people. 778 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:11,600 And so what that, 779 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,360 and VMware, 780 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,080 for all of its strengths as a company, 781 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:17,440 honestly, I've never met a company 782 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,080 that takes better care of its employees 783 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,000 than VMware did. 784 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:23,360 And I could have stories about that. 785 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,320 But they didn't really have a clear, 786 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:27,600 concise vision 787 00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:28,800 of how 788 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:31,600 bringing Pivotal in 789 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:32,960 and having Heptio there 790 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:34,080 and working on Tanzu 791 00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:35,920 would all come together. 792 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:37,280 Now, part of that was 793 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:38,640 that VMware was fighting for its life. 794 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:41,040 It was all happening right before, 795 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:42,720 like the whole broad company. 796 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:45,760 And like, 797 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:46,800 it's hard to really have 798 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:47,360 a good picture 799 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:48,480 of what the road ahead looks like 800 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:49,360 when you're realizing 801 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:50,640 there isn't much of it left, right? 802 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:52,640 It's kind of terrifying. 803 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,000 So what happened here was, 804 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:56,480 like, 805 00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,960 it really became a very big mess. 806 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,200 Like with people on both sides, 807 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,440 Heptio, Pivotal, VMware, 808 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:04,480 all trying to figure out 809 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:05,920 what was going to happen all at once, 810 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,560 but not doing it in a way that was cohesive. 811 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,120 And it left a very big mess 812 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,440 when the whole Broadcom thing happened. 813 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:14,480 Yeah. 814 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,800 I mean, they also just jackhammered the road. 815 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:17,440 I was going to say, 816 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,280 like, do you think that contributed 817 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:19,920 to the, like, 818 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,000 final fallout of how things just, 819 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,320 I feel like a lot of acquisitions, like, 820 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:28,800 get spicy, 821 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,800 but people were so upset with VMware 822 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:35,440 when after the Broadcom thing. 823 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:36,000 You know what I mean? 824 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:36,240 Like, 825 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:38,080 I think the challenge is that, 826 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:40,320 and I mean, it's a fascinating thing. 827 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:41,760 Some of this is stuff 828 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:43,680 that we all know intrinsically, right? 829 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,480 Like, but what it comes down to is, 830 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,960 as an industry in general, 831 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,600 people who buy a hypervisor, 832 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,200 everybody across the entire world, 833 00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,440 like automotive companies, banks, 834 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:00,400 financial companies, 835 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,800 everyone had built a high trust relationship 836 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:06,400 with VMware. 837 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,120 And VMware had gone to market 838 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:10,880 with its sales and everything else 839 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,360 to really support that function, 840 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:15,920 really support a high trust relationship 841 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:17,600 with its customers. 842 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:19,760 Broadcom, 843 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:22,320 they don't have that. 844 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:22,880 And they, 845 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:23,600 and it's not really, 846 00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:26,320 like, in the company guide to do it. 847 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:28,960 So when this acquisition happened, 848 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,600 basically it became a situation where, 849 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,760 like, I, even though I had a really high trust 850 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:34,880 relationship with VMware, 851 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,560 I don't, like, the other side of the table 852 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:39,920 really doesn't understand, 853 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:41,680 A, that relationship at all, 854 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,600 or know how to provide me something 855 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:47,440 that allows me to understand the way forward. 856 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,680 And so it's one of those things where it's like, 857 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:51,040 if you put all of your, 858 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,200 if you put some key focus area of your technology 859 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:56,880 that keeps you going as a company 860 00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:58,640 in just one place, 861 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:00,800 and you're not paying attention 862 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:01,920 to what's happening in the space, 863 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:03,280 you're not, like, we're learning, 864 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:03,840 hey, you know what, 865 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:05,920 I feel like this is actually a risk 866 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,320 because I'm only counting on VMware 867 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:09,040 to do this job. 868 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:11,360 If I just believe in my mind 869 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:12,800 that VMware will be there forever, 870 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:15,520 I might be making a mistake, right? 871 00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:16,960 Like, and that was like- 872 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:18,320 Kind of gets back to how you're talking 873 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:20,320 about seeing that next train too, you know? 874 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:21,120 Yeah. 875 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:23,440 I also think it's interesting that 876 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,000 I think a lot of times we get two companies 877 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,560 that align on technology, right? 878 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,120 And they want to acquire, based off of technology, 879 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:33,520 and their leadership principles 880 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:35,440 and their kind of like who they are 881 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:36,720 is an essence of a company 882 00:41:36,720 --> 00:41:38,320 can be very different, right? 883 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,080 So even though their technology 884 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:41,120 is married together well, 885 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:43,360 they're as a company, 886 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,760 and like the way that they interact 887 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:46,720 with customers, 888 00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:49,520 the way that they kind of like, 889 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:50,880 how you kind of like talked about 890 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:52,320 how when you're a product company 891 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:53,440 versus consulting company, 892 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:54,320 like a lot of that, 893 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,240 I think people don't realize 894 00:41:56,240 --> 00:41:57,520 how much that can affect 895 00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:59,520 an acquisition or a project transition 896 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:00,480 or a pivot, right? 897 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:02,880 Yeah, I completely agree. 898 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:05,360 Yeah, I mean, like right around that same time 899 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:06,640 I had this idea in my head 900 00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:07,840 that I was like, could you imagine 901 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:12,960 if instead of Broadcom acquiring VMware, 902 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:13,760 if it was Google? 903 00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:16,640 I actually think that would have been 904 00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:17,760 dangerous and fire, 905 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:19,520 but like in kind of a good way, 906 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:20,160 you know what I mean? 907 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:24,080 No, but like, it would have made them so powerful 908 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,880 and because people like you said 909 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:27,680 in their minds, 910 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,120 they were going to use VMware forever. 911 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:30,880 They were locked in like they, 912 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:32,720 and they knew to a certain extent 913 00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:34,160 that they were locked in 914 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,080 and usually people get real nervous 915 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:37,600 and nervous about licenses 916 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:38,880 that they can't get out of 917 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:40,880 and people walked into it just like, 918 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:43,680 just, you know what I mean? 919 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,640 But also out of every company 920 00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:48,480 that has the least amount of trust, 921 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:49,760 like Google is a meme 922 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:50,640 of how they deprecate things. 923 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,240 You know that Justin was going to, 924 00:42:52,240 --> 00:42:54,640 this is this is when you don't intense Google 925 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:55,920 and Justin's going to be like, 926 00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:57,600 and this is where I'm like, 927 00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:58,800 this would have been so fascinating 928 00:42:58,800 --> 00:42:59,680 if it had happened that way. 929 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:01,280 Like in the universe where 930 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:03,920 VMware was acquired by Google, 931 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:04,000 it would have been- 932 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:04,720 It's like Marvel, 933 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:07,360 the different universes and timelines, 934 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:08,640 like what was happening, yeah. 935 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:11,200 Because like, 936 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:12,640 because the part of the challenge 937 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:14,400 that Google has continually, 938 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:15,280 right, is that they have no- 939 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:16,240 Is renaming things? 940 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,480 No, they don't have that. 941 00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:19,600 They also don't have like, 942 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:20,960 they don't have any way to 943 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:23,920 instantiate that trust relationship 944 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:24,800 that we were talking about. 945 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:25,760 Right? 946 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:27,440 They, like if that, 947 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:28,720 but if they had bought like, 948 00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:30,480 literally an entire enterprise 949 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,480 sales force that knew how to do that, 950 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:36,080 it would be a really very, 951 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:37,440 it would be a very interesting thing 952 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:38,240 to see how that shaped- 953 00:43:38,240 --> 00:43:40,320 I honestly think tech companies in general 954 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:41,840 are going to struggle with the trust 955 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:42,560 going forward. 956 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:44,160 Like there's been such a shake-up 957 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:45,840 and it's been such a turbulent time 958 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:47,760 that I think we forget 959 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,000 how much trust has to do with it. 960 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:50,960 You know? 961 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:51,760 And even, I mean, 962 00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:53,200 the Broadcom thing is a great example. 963 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:55,120 Like it's really changed the world 964 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:56,320 for a lot of companies. 965 00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,840 Not just in how they see the hypervisor, 966 00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:00,960 but how they see networking, 967 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:02,000 how they see firewalling, 968 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:03,680 how they see file storage, 969 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:05,280 how they see like all of the things 970 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,040 that they have to concern themselves with 971 00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,240 as a company have fundamentally changed 972 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:11,920 because they realize, 973 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:13,600 oh, I was making the bet 974 00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,200 that this company was going to be around 975 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,240 and I can't really make that bet anymore. 976 00:44:18,240 --> 00:44:21,280 I think if you also take that 977 00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:22,560 and then the way that people 978 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:24,640 are going to want to be so cloud-agnostic 979 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:25,760 and then are like, 980 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:27,760 you know, like people are like 981 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:29,600 in this new era of 982 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:30,320 do I want to... 983 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:33,200 Also, I think that like 984 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:34,400 Justin's going to disagree with me, 985 00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:36,400 but I think people romanticize on-prem. 986 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,000 And it's not that I don't think it's worthy, 987 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:39,680 but I just think that we're piping it up 988 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:40,640 a little bit more than 989 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,200 people want to take into account 990 00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:44,320 how much that takes, 991 00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:45,440 which I think when you know 992 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,120 what you're doing, it is good, right? 993 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,760 Like, and I think Kolo is a very good 994 00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,240 proponent and option. 995 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,240 But I think that it's very much 996 00:44:54,240 --> 00:44:56,320 spicy headlines right now, you know? 997 00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,320 And like because we are in just 998 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:00,720 a spicy headline AI 999 00:45:00,720 --> 00:45:01,760 and all of the things, 1000 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:03,600 like it's really interesting. 1001 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:04,800 Like I can't tell if like 1002 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,040 I'm depressed and we're all doomed 1003 00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:08,720 or if this is going to be the most like 1004 00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:10,480 fire amazing innovation 1005 00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:11,280 that's going to come out 1006 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,920 because as people get so high level 1007 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:14,640 about things, 1008 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:16,640 there's also these cool like 1009 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:18,080 new cloud companies coming out 1010 00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:18,880 or you know what I mean? 1011 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:19,760 Like, so I think it's like 1012 00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,080 we are almost giving people trust 1013 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:23,520 issues with technology right now. 1014 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:26,160 I do find it funny, 1015 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:27,840 like the whole vendor lock in thing 1016 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:29,760 wasn't an issue until the cloud 1017 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:30,320 when they're like, 1018 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:31,600 hey, if I'm going to AWS, 1019 00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:32,400 I want to make sure I can come out. 1020 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:33,200 That's not true. 1021 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:34,960 Oracle Database is where the Oracle 1022 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:36,800 Database is where that was like 1023 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:39,200 vendor lockout 101. 1024 00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:40,960 But like Oracle Database was like, 1025 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:42,880 just like we have to have the biggest 1026 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:43,360 best thing. 1027 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:44,960 So we're paying the millions of dollars. 1028 00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:47,280 Oracle Database is Sun and Java 1029 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:48,400 and all kinds of things. 1030 00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:49,920 And then wait, 1031 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:51,040 there's another layer. 1032 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:52,800 Talk about how open source was like, 1033 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:54,080 we're going to be open source. 1034 00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:55,280 Now you have a license 1035 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:56,320 and you can't use all this stuff 1036 00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:57,680 you contributed to. 1037 00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:00,560 We are in the like FAFO of like 1038 00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:03,440 how much you can get away with. 1039 00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:04,160 You know what I mean? 1040 00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:04,800 Yeah. 1041 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:06,400 Like just what we were talking 1042 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:07,440 about on Blue Sky the other day, 1043 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:08,960 talking about if we would like to, 1044 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,040 like what is the basis of like, 1045 00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:12,400 do you run your own server? 1046 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:13,600 Are we having it in the cloud? 1047 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:14,960 Like we are at a point 1048 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:16,160 where we are using things 1049 00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:17,520 that we've never used before. 1050 00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:18,640 So it's not as easy as, 1051 00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:20,320 okay, I'll just run my own servers anymore 1052 00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,000 because how are you making those servers redundant? 1053 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:23,360 How are you doing all this? 1054 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,480 But we also have realized how 1055 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,160 giving one company too much trust 1056 00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:29,120 has screwed us over. 1057 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:30,960 So it's like this new kind of 1058 00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:33,600 where do we go forward in open source? 1059 00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:34,960 Like what are we contributing to? 1060 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:36,320 What are we putting our, 1061 00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:37,680 like what are we betting on? 1062 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:39,040 Because it could be licensed 1063 00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:40,560 or what are we doing with the cloud? 1064 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:41,920 Like I really think that we're... 1065 00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:43,600 I find that trust story interesting 1066 00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:45,440 on both the small and large level. 1067 00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:46,880 Yeah, because they're two different levels. 1068 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:49,360 Lots of giant companies 1069 00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:50,480 deprecating things, 1070 00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:51,520 changing pricing models, 1071 00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:52,240 doing whatever. 1072 00:46:52,240 --> 00:46:53,200 It's like you're locked in, 1073 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:54,960 we're going to then now just like screw you over. 1074 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:56,720 And the small companies that say, 1075 00:46:56,720 --> 00:46:58,080 hey, you've been using this for free. 1076 00:46:58,080 --> 00:46:59,440 Now we're rug pulling you 1077 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:00,560 and we're changing the license 1078 00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:01,520 and you have to pay us for it. 1079 00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:02,960 Like in both cases, 1080 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:04,400 trust is eroding on the... 1081 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,080 People are like, I can't trust the startup 1082 00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:07,840 because what if they disappear? 1083 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:09,600 It's like, oh, but you can't trust the large company either 1084 00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:10,960 because they're going to deprecate it 1085 00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:12,080 or charge you more or whatever. 1086 00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:13,280 Because for a minute there, 1087 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:15,280 large companies were the scary thing 1088 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:16,800 and everybody was starting to like, 1089 00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:18,080 put trust into startups. 1090 00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,160 People that I know that not just people 1091 00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:21,760 that are using large companies 1092 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:22,480 are going to startups, 1093 00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:25,520 but people that are fanged resumes 1094 00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:26,720 were like, nah, dude. 1095 00:47:26,720 --> 00:47:27,760 And all go like, 1096 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,960 we are seeing this crazy migration and change. 1097 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:32,400 It's wild. 1098 00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:34,160 I mean, there's a third part of this, 1099 00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:35,760 which is that like foundations 1100 00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:37,280 are a part of this puzzle too, right? 1101 00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:39,280 So foundations are a situation 1102 00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:41,040 where they might say like, 1103 00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:46,000 we the foundation in our bylaws, 1104 00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:49,920 we cannot change the license of software, 1105 00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:51,120 but you can donate it to us 1106 00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:52,880 like CNCF, the next foundation, 1107 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:53,760 these sorts of things. 1108 00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,040 You can't move a project that's in the CNCF 1109 00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:00,160 from an open source license to another license. 1110 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:03,600 I think that's going to be interesting too. 1111 00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:06,000 Yeah, but you can't change it. 1112 00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,560 But then I also think of like Rocket, right? 1113 00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:09,920 Like it's a core OS project 1114 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:12,560 that was a CNCF project that was still there. 1115 00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:13,920 It just got, it just went away 1116 00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:15,680 because at some point you still need people to show up. 1117 00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:16,720 Nobody was working on it, right? 1118 00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:17,520 Yeah. 1119 00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,240 But I think that's what we're going to like really get into, 1120 00:48:20,240 --> 00:48:21,760 like because if you think about it, 1121 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:23,840 like people don't know what open source to trust, 1122 00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:25,920 are you going to take it from underneath us 1123 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:27,600 and like after we contribute to it? 1124 00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:28,960 And like it's, 1125 00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,280 I really think that open source is the way forward 1126 00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:32,880 because like the fact, 1127 00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,200 like when you have four of the biggest companies 1128 00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:37,120 that do whatever you're trying to do, 1129 00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:39,120 and you're all maintaining the same software 1130 00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,560 and catching the same CVEs, you know what I mean? 1131 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:43,760 That's a force multiplier 1132 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:45,840 that you cannot create. 1133 00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,880 Like it would cost so much money to do that, right? 1134 00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:49,760 But at the same time, 1135 00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:50,880 if we can't trust each other 1136 00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:52,880 and we can't meet in the middle somewhere, 1137 00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:54,320 and just if you look at it, 1138 00:48:54,320 --> 00:49:00,080 like the CNCF and like the Linux foundation 1139 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:01,280 are kind of like these new, 1140 00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:03,360 like they're the basis 1141 00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:05,520 in which these new foundations are starting. 1142 00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:08,080 Rust very much took that game plan 1143 00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:09,840 and saw what was happening, 1144 00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:11,680 what was good, what was bad to build that. 1145 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:13,440 So it's like, it's just interesting. 1146 00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:14,800 Like we are truly like, 1147 00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:16,480 if you look at how much infrastructure 1148 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,960 and just tech has grown in the last 10 years, 1149 00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:20,640 but now it's like almost like, 1150 00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:23,280 I don't even know how you make it faster, 1151 00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:25,680 but we are in this crazy transition period. 1152 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:27,520 It's true, yeah, for sure. 1153 00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:30,480 Yeah, I think the, I mean, to your point, 1154 00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:32,640 like I guess to both of your points, 1155 00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:35,840 I am an engineer working on an open source project. 1156 00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:41,120 The project reaches some level of success. 1157 00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:45,200 I, as an engineer or the author of that project, 1158 00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:46,160 have a decision to make. 1159 00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:50,080 Do I change the license of that 1160 00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:51,520 to make more money off of that project? 1161 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:53,840 Do I contribute that project 1162 00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:55,360 to an open source foundation 1163 00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:58,560 so that that eventuality is protected from, 1164 00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:00,160 but continue doing the work 1165 00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,160 against that project as I move forward? 1166 00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:04,320 Do I find some middle ground 1167 00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:05,600 where I could donate the project, 1168 00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,240 but still sell an enterprise offering of that project? 1169 00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:09,440 Like there's this, 1170 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,160 it's a really interesting time to your point. 1171 00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:13,200 And it's really hard 1172 00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:15,600 because like all of these answers are correct. 1173 00:50:16,720 --> 00:50:19,760 Right, like I worked on this idea. 1174 00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,560 The idea was it was going to help me pay my bills. 1175 00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:24,080 I need to buy food. 1176 00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:25,680 I need to pay rent, right? 1177 00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:26,560 That is so true. 1178 00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:28,400 I love working on this thing, you know, but like. 1179 00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:29,840 I have the infrastructure, you know, 1180 00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:31,680 like if a small company is going to do something, 1181 00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:34,480 they've got to have the money to continue the product. 1182 00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:38,800 So it's a tough one because it's like, you know, 1183 00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:40,320 from the outside, it's all, 1184 00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:43,280 it's very easy for us to judge the actions of others 1185 00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:45,200 in relation to all of this. 1186 00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:47,680 When we think, you know, 1187 00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:50,400 I trusted you to do this and this is what happened. 1188 00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:52,720 But at the end of the day, it's like, 1189 00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:55,280 it's not even really about business. 1190 00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:57,120 It's about how do I put food on my table? 1191 00:50:57,680 --> 00:50:59,520 I think we've got to find that middle ground though. 1192 00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,240 Like the engineers and the companies, 1193 00:51:02,240 --> 00:51:05,120 they have to come or just open source and companies 1194 00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:06,560 have to come to that medical ground 1195 00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:08,880 because we have to make it sustainable. 1196 00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:12,800 Like the bottom line is 70% of infrastructure 1197 00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:14,240 comes from open source. 1198 00:51:14,240 --> 00:51:16,160 So companies need open source 1199 00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:18,160 and open source needs the money from companies 1200 00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:20,640 and the manpower and trying to find a way 1201 00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:22,960 to make that work is going to be so important. 1202 00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:25,280 I really admire your career, 1203 00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:27,120 like how you've navigated it 1204 00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:29,200 and you've just stayed in open source 1205 00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:31,120 but also got to like, I don't know, 1206 00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,520 I just feel like you get to work on so many amazing, 1207 00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:36,560 high level, cool ways to like move the industry forward. 1208 00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:40,080 What advice would you give to like me or other people 1209 00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:43,200 or just yourself like throughout your, 1210 00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,360 like what do you wish you knew throughout your career? 1211 00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:46,880 Like when you were picking jobs 1212 00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:49,440 or just pivoting and learning things, 1213 00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:51,840 like what do you feel like you learned 1214 00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:53,600 if you could give yourself advice? 1215 00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,080 When I was very young, my dad was a chef 1216 00:51:58,080 --> 00:51:59,360 and he was also a barber 1217 00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:01,680 and he was also a Vietnam vet. 1218 00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:04,960 He did a, and I remember us having a conversation 1219 00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:07,040 when I was kind of starting to get into 1220 00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:08,480 the working part of period of my life 1221 00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:10,080 where I was like working with him in the kitchen 1222 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:11,840 and I was doing all those other stuff. 1223 00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:14,720 I remember him telling me, you should get paid 1224 00:52:14,720 --> 00:52:16,800 for what you know, not what you do. 1225 00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,120 And that really shaped things for me 1226 00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,080 because it really helped me understand that like, 1227 00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:27,840 when I look forward to like what I want to go do as a career, 1228 00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:30,160 when I look forward, and I've jumped around a lot. 1229 00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:32,320 I've been a bartender, I've been a radio station DJ, 1230 00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:34,720 I've been a bouncer, I've done personal security, 1231 00:52:34,720 --> 00:52:38,160 I've worked in tech across a variety of different areas 1232 00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:40,560 and in each of them, I was realizing that the thing 1233 00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:44,240 that differentiated me in that job 1234 00:52:44,240 --> 00:52:46,000 was that I want to know more. 1235 00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:49,920 I love that curiosity, which comes back to something 1236 00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:53,120 that Justin said about like, even in this new age of AI, 1237 00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,760 like curiosity is going to be what sets people apart. 1238 00:52:56,720 --> 00:52:59,600 Exactly, that's always going to be your differentiator, right? 1239 00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:05,600 Like, and it's hard, I mean, it's hard, it's a hard thing 1240 00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:08,560 because to be fair, like, I've been at it 1241 00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:10,160 for quite a long time at this point, 1242 00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:12,800 so it's just intrinsic in the way that I see the world 1243 00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:14,400 that I want to know more about a thing, 1244 00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:15,360 I'm going to go learn it. 1245 00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:17,440 That's just how it works for me, right? 1246 00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:19,440 But it wasn't always that way. 1247 00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,560 And I think if I were to give myself advice, 1248 00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:25,040 it's just to embrace that curiosity, 1249 00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:28,560 embrace that mindset because that's the thing 1250 00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:30,320 that moves you forward. 1251 00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,840 That's the thing that makes people see a bigger picture, 1252 00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:36,240 whether it's yourself that sees that bigger picture 1253 00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:37,600 or it's the people that you're working with 1254 00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:40,880 to see that bigger picture, that curiosity that you bring to it 1255 00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:45,200 and that drive to learn more about different things 1256 00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:46,240 that are happening in the space. 1257 00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:48,480 Can't say enough about it. 1258 00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:49,760 And a lot of times at the whole, like, 1259 00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:51,120 what's the next train, right? 1260 00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:52,960 Like, I tell people, like, what are we going at? 1261 00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:53,920 Like, don't worry about it. 1262 00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:55,840 What are you interested in now, right? 1263 00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:57,440 Like, whatever you are interested in now 1264 00:53:57,440 --> 00:53:59,040 is the thing you should go chase 1265 00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:00,480 because that's the thing you're going to be driven 1266 00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:01,600 to learn more about. 1267 00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:03,040 And if I've learned anything in my career, 1268 00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:04,400 it's that everything is cyclical, right? 1269 00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:07,520 Like, all the networking stuff you did 15 years ago 1270 00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:08,960 came right back at you in Kubernetes. 1271 00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:09,920 It's so wild. 1272 00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:13,600 It's like a, like, heck is like a bunch of, 1273 00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:15,520 like, it's a hype cycle. 1274 00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:18,160 But like, really, everything new is old and old is new 1275 00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:19,200 and it's just wild. 1276 00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:21,040 Yeah, that cycle is a wheel. 1277 00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:22,320 And as you're learning one thing, 1278 00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:23,840 it's going to come back around at some point. 1279 00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:25,760 And you're like, hey, I remember how to debug this 1280 00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:26,960 from 10 years ago. 1281 00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:28,480 Even if it's not the same tooling, 1282 00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:30,160 you still kind of remember the fundamentals. 1283 00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:32,400 Except for when you look at code that you wrote last week. 1284 00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:34,800 That person's an idiot. 1285 00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:36,800 And that person should have never written that code. 1286 00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:39,360 It's just never, never look at the commit, 1287 00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:40,400 get blamed and see yourself. 1288 00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:42,160 Yeah, it's the worst. 1289 00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:44,160 Also, I think it's so funny that Duffy mentioned 1290 00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,560 that you, like, did security or something. 1291 00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:49,440 Dude, Duffy is the kindest, sweetest person 1292 00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:50,800 and then you meet him in real life 1293 00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:52,000 and Duffy is so tall. 1294 00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:53,760 Like, hello. 1295 00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:58,400 But you're still like the sweetest person. 1296 00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:04,560 And I said, I think the other part of it is, like, 1297 00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:06,880 all these different technologies are one thing, 1298 00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:08,880 but you know the one through line for me, 1299 00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:12,160 as I'm sure it is both of you, is people. 1300 00:55:12,720 --> 00:55:13,760 I love the people. 1301 00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:16,240 I know it's weird because I don't really like people, people. 1302 00:55:16,240 --> 00:55:18,480 But the tech people, like, oh my God. 1303 00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:23,440 Like, being able to engage with people around those things 1304 00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:25,280 that you're interested in, like, that's the other, 1305 00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:27,280 like if there's one part of the puzzle 1306 00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:29,760 that is literally consistently through lines 1307 00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:31,200 all the way through everything I've done, 1308 00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:34,080 it's, I have to work with those people. 1309 00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:35,440 I have to figure out what makes them tick. 1310 00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:38,080 I have to figure out what, you know, what they find interesting. 1311 00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:40,720 And I have to, like, figure out how to communicate with them. 1312 00:55:40,720 --> 00:55:44,400 And that's a puzzle I've been playing with my whole life. 1313 00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:46,160 That's what I love about Linux. 1314 00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:49,120 Linux, I mean, it might be the, like, 1315 00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:52,560 every now and then we get some grouchy old dudes. 1316 00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:55,520 But, like, it is just, oh, I love the community. 1317 00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:57,040 Like, if you want to see people, like, 1318 00:55:57,040 --> 00:55:59,200 hardcore, nerd out about some stuff, 1319 00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:04,240 and just customize things to absolute, like, chaotic, like... 1320 00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:06,640 Just because they can. 1321 00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:06,960 Yes! 1322 00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:11,520 Like, oh my God, like, I'm either, like, oh, 1323 00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:13,440 people, like, I don't want to go to the grocery store, 1324 00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:15,200 but get me, like, a Linux conference, 1325 00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:17,520 and I'm just, like, I want to talk to all the people. 1326 00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:19,360 Like, I asked Carrie the other day. 1327 00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:21,840 I was like, who's the golden retriever, 1328 00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:23,440 and who's the black cat in our friendship? 1329 00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:24,960 And she looked at me, Justin. 1330 00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:26,640 It was offensive how she looked at me. 1331 00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:28,240 She was like, duh, you're the golden retriever. 1332 00:56:28,240 --> 00:56:30,400 And I'm like, but not with everybody. 1333 00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:31,680 And then I thought about it, like, 1334 00:56:32,240 --> 00:56:34,080 wait, do you find your people, though? 1335 00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:35,040 It's so different. 1336 00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:37,440 Like, dude, I swear, one day I'm going to find out 1337 00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:39,600 how to work in Kubernetes just staying out with you guys, 1338 00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:41,840 because, like, it's the people, like... 1339 00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:45,840 Duffy, when did you leave VMware and go to Isovalent? 1340 00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:46,640 When was that? 1341 00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:50,000 After I left VMware, I actually went back to Apple 1342 00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:52,800 for six months and realized that it was kind of a rerun 1343 00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:54,560 of the last time I was there, and then I left. 1344 00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:57,040 And I went to, but I had interviewed, 1345 00:56:57,040 --> 00:56:58,240 I mean, I've known Dan. 1346 00:56:58,240 --> 00:57:01,360 Dan Wentland is the CEO of Isovalent. 1347 00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:03,920 He's somebody I worked with very closely at NYSERA. 1348 00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:05,520 Again, right, the loop. 1349 00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:09,120 And so when I, so I had talked to Dan 1350 00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:11,760 about an opportunity to do what I'm doing at Isovalent, 1351 00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:14,160 and then I saw an opportunity to go back to Apple 1352 00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:16,480 to do Kubernetes there with a bunch of other friends 1353 00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:18,080 that I'd known there for years. 1354 00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:19,120 And I was like, you know what? 1355 00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:21,120 I'm going to do the Apple thing, 1356 00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:22,720 because I feel like it would be really great 1357 00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:24,000 to see that finish, right? 1358 00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:25,040 To see, close that loop. 1359 00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:26,000 Yeah. 1360 00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:27,280 It was not ready to be closed. 1361 00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:29,680 And so I left and went back to Isovalent, 1362 00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:30,960 and I've been at Isovalent since, 1363 00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:33,840 and had a wonderful time throughout this whole acquisition. 1364 00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:34,800 And I was just telling... 1365 00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:36,400 Duffy, when you handle things, it's so classy. 1366 00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:37,280 Like, I just, like... 1367 00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:40,320 Duffy can tell you the good and the bad, 1368 00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:41,840 and he makes it sound so good. 1369 00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:44,880 And it's like, oh, just like, I'm just like... 1370 00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:47,520 I just teach me that quality. 1371 00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:50,480 Like, the way you sum things up. 1372 00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:51,920 I was like, that was so classy. 1373 00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:52,960 Like... 1374 00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:53,440 Thank you. 1375 00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:55,360 Yeah. 1376 00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:56,320 And then, yeah. 1377 00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:58,240 And then the acquisition in Disysco, 1378 00:57:58,240 --> 00:57:59,440 it's like one of... 1379 00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:01,840 I've been through this a few times, 1380 00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:04,720 and this is the one that I am the most positive on. 1381 00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:07,920 Like, I actually do think I might be here the whole time. 1382 00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:09,840 Like that, like... 1383 00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:11,760 Because I'm actually working on super fascinating things. 1384 00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:13,040 Like, Disysco is in a place where it's... 1385 00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:15,360 Like, having its Microsoft moment, 1386 00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:18,640 whether it succeeds or fails, is all up in the air. 1387 00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:22,400 But like, it's really changing as a company. 1388 00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:26,080 Like, we have one product leader in front of all of Disysco. 1389 00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:28,240 That's never happened in the history of the company. 1390 00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:30,160 We have, like, you know, 1391 00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:32,800 reorganizations happening to basically restructure the company 1392 00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:36,240 to go to market as one product. 1393 00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:37,440 It's like, it's... 1394 00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:39,600 I never thought in my career that I would have an opportunity 1395 00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:42,880 to see a giant like Disysco go through that much change. 1396 00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:46,240 And I have a great seat. 1397 00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:48,560 I'm like, in the perfect spot to watch all of that happen. 1398 00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:49,120 It's amazing. 1399 00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:51,440 I love this for you because you're such a, like, nice person. 1400 00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:52,720 I feel like you deserve this win. 1401 00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:54,720 It's crazy because, like... 1402 00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:56,800 Isn't it wild? 1403 00:58:59,920 --> 00:59:03,120 What is your favorite job out of all the jobs that you've had? 1404 00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:04,800 Ooh, that's tough. 1405 00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:08,160 Because I feel like you've had, like, the most amazing... 1406 00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:09,920 Like, you've lived, like, six lives, Tuffy. 1407 00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:12,640 I think, actually, it's between... 1408 00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:17,520 I'll say that it was the two years of Heptio and Quarrow West. 1409 00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:18,560 I think we're the two... 1410 00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:20,800 Probably the best for me. 1411 00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:23,680 Because I have really had an incredible connection 1412 00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:25,760 with everybody who worked at both of those companies. 1413 00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:28,080 And it really made me feel... 1414 00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:33,520 It really enabled me to embrace the... 1415 00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:36,240 That learning culture. 1416 00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:39,040 And also, at Heptio, I had the opportunity 1417 00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:40,880 to help define that learning culture. 1418 00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:42,640 Right? 1419 00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:44,560 I mean, I did that a bit at Quarrow West as well, 1420 00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:49,760 but really just having that ability to just come in and say, 1421 00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:53,760 you know, this team is going to move things forward 1422 00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:54,800 for the entire company. 1423 00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:58,000 And the way we're going to do that is by being professionally... 1424 00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:00,880 Intellectually curious, being honest with ourselves 1425 01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:02,080 and with our customers. 1426 01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:05,600 And just, like, you know, driving that home with the team. 1427 01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:08,240 And it was an incredible, incredible opportunity. 1428 01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:11,440 I think those two are my favorite jobs. 1429 01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:14,720 I mean, this one's not bad either. 1430 01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:15,840 I really enjoy Isabel. 1431 01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:17,200 I'm not saying that, but, like... 1432 01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:19,120 I used to think that being... 1433 01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:22,240 That when managers or people, like, you know, in tech, 1434 01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:25,120 like how it set you up to work on what you were most interested on, 1435 01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:28,000 I used to think that that was just, like, a blessing, 1436 01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:29,760 which it is, obviously. 1437 01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:34,240 But it's wild how you will get just go down the rabbit holes 1438 01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:36,640 and work late and do all the things 1439 01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:38,560 when it's something you're truly interested in. 1440 01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:41,280 Like, you start to see the business value 1441 01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:44,800 and giving people that are curious those opportunities 1442 01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:46,800 because it's not just to be nice. 1443 01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:50,320 It's wild how somebody will expand and innovate 1444 01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:52,320 and become such a subject matter expert 1445 01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:54,560 when they are given that runway, you know? 1446 01:00:57,360 --> 01:00:58,480 Oh, you're on mute. 1447 01:00:58,480 --> 01:00:59,120 I don't know what happened. 1448 01:00:59,120 --> 01:00:59,840 We lost your audio. 1449 01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:02,480 When you're given the time to do it 1450 01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:05,360 and you're given the permission to do it 1451 01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:09,040 and you're welcoming in, like, very different scene. 1452 01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:11,040 I have to go, though. 1453 01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:12,720 So we should say our goodbyes, I think. 1454 01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:13,200 Yeah. 1455 01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:13,440 Okay. 1456 01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:15,680 Duffy, thank you so much for coming on. 1457 01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:16,880 Where should people find you? 1458 01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:20,080 They can find me, gosh, in the Kubernetes Slack, 1459 01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:21,040 the CNCF Slack. 1460 01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:24,160 They can find me on Blue Sky as Maui Lyon. 1461 01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:28,640 So MAUI, like the island, and LION, like the big cap. 1462 01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:31,040 You can find me on X that way. 1463 01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:32,720 You can find me on Blue Sky that way. 1464 01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:34,160 Yeah. 1465 01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:35,200 I'm on Signal as well. 1466 01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:35,920 You've been fencing so well. 1467 01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:37,920 Thank you. 1468 01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:40,160 But thank you both for the time. 1469 01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:40,400 All right. 1470 01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:40,880 Well, thank you. 1471 01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:42,960 Yeah, thank you so much for coming 1472 01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:45,840 and telling us all your story and history 1473 01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:48,880 around how you've grown in Kubernetes 1474 01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:49,840 and Kubernetes has grown. 1475 01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:50,400 That's been great. 1476 01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:51,360 I missed you so much. 1477 01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:52,880 I'm so glad we got to interview you. 1478 01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:56,480 And you can always find me at KubeCon in places like that. 1479 01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:57,920 Anytime you see me, just come say hi. 1480 01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:00,160 It's so worth it. 1481 01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:01,120 He's amazing. 1482 01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:04,640 Thank you, everyone, for listening, 1483 01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:05,920 and we will talk to you again soon. 1484 01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:08,320 Thank you for coming on, Dougie. 1485 01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:17,360 Thank you for listening to this episode 1486 01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:19,040 of Fork Around and Find Out. 1487 01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:21,040 If you like this show, please consider sharing it 1488 01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:23,520 with a friend, a co-worker, a family member, 1489 01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:24,560 or even an enemy. 1490 01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:26,880 However we get the word out about this show 1491 01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:29,360 helps it to become sustainable for the long term. 1492 01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:30,800 If you want to sponsor this show, 1493 01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:35,040 please go to fafo.fm slash sponsor 1494 01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:36,160 and reach out to us there 1495 01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:38,000 about what you're interested in sponsoring 1496 01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:38,720 and how we can help. 1497 01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:41,760 We hope your systems stay available 1498 01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:43,200 and your pagers stay quiet. 1499 01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:52,320 We'll see you 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