Hello, hello, my loves. Welcome back to The TV Doctor, a podcast where I prescribe for you exactly what television you should be watching to treat the socio-emotional ailments that might be bothering you. I’m M. Foss, and I’m not a doctor on TV, but I play one in real life.

Here in Season 5 of the podcast, my Special Guest Star, Second Opinion, Cha’DIch, Co-Pilot, and Co-Host Ashley and I are safely in orbit around our mission to seek out the healing properties embedded in Star Trek: Discovery. We’ll also be discussing the parts that require the computer to run an additional diagnostic or two. And by “the computer,” I don’t mean our positronic networks; I mean our brains. Together, we are a rookie and a veteran, attempting a bit of a mind meld, inviting you along as we do our best to boldly go. 

If you don’t think of yourself as a quote-unquote “Star Trek person,” luckily, you don’t HAVE to be a Star Trek person to pick up what we’re putting down. Ashley wasn’t a Star Trek person either, and maybe she’s still not, but she IS finding value and joy in watching, and so can you. It’s not too late for you to watch Discovery along with us. Our season is still young, our journey is deliciously long, and there’s plenty of comfy room in this shuttle. Consider this your sign that it’s time to see what all the fuss is about. And now, let’s beam on over to…Sickbay.

Second Opinion:

MF: All right, so we are back. It is season one, episode four, and the title of this episode is so good. You don't even know what it means, but it is “The Butcher's Knife Cares Not for the Lamb's Cry.” 

AJ: It sounds like something biblical. 

MF: It does. 

AJ: Is it? 

MF: You're asking the wrong person. 

AJ: Okay, fair.

MF: You tell me. 

AJ: Fair. 

MF: Is it? I don't know. But it's very good. And unlike the first three episodes, I don't think this line is ever mentioned in the episode. I don't think anyone in the episode actually says this line. 

AJ: No. 

MF: That just makes it that much better for me. So, let's start a new thing here.

AJ: I love a new thing. 

MF: Okay. We need to know what happens in this episode and I feel like the recap should come from you because it's going to be so adorably full of “I don't know what this means, I don't know what this is called.” To a lay viewer… 

AJ: Yes. 

MF: …what happened in Episode 4, “The Butcher's Knife Cares Not for the Lamb’s Cry”? 

AJ: I'm so glad you asked because, first of all, Michael Burnham gets a new fit, but without the bells and whistles, whatever those are, the star she received or… 

MF: You're committed to calling it the star.

AJ: That is in fact what Captain Georgiou said, did she not in episode one? She said, “I drew a star for them to find us.” 

MF: We'll come back. 

AJ: Check me. We will come back to that. 

MF: Okay. 

AJ: She receives Captain Georgiou's last will and testament in a fancy box, but doesn't want to open it. Fair. Grief is different for everyone. Up on the, whatever it's called, on the deck, maybe, like on the deck… 

MF: Do you mean the bridge? 

AJ: Oh, the bridge is not the elevator. Okay. Up to the… 

MF: Oh…no. 

AJ: Okay. The bridge. On the bridge…

MF: Do you mean where, like, the captain's chair is? 

AJ: Yes 

MF: And all… 

AJ: Yes, and all the people.

MF: That's the bridge. 

AJ: Okay. If that's a trivia question, I'm gonna nail it. 

MF: It's not. 

AJ: I mean, there are some things where I do wonder how would you even know that the most fundamental things are just completely unknown? 

MF: That's a good check for me. 

AJ: Okay. Little level set. 

MF: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. 

AJ: Perfect. Okay. On the bridge. 

MF: Yes. 

AJ: The team is losing test runs to the fake Klingons. Shady Saru is mad that Burnham is still around. Burnham is tasked with finding out what the slug thing is doing and how it can contribute to spores.

MF: The slug thing, 

AJ: The slug/dog thing. Listen, I love dogs. Protect them at all costs. 

MF: The slug dog, the tardigrade. 

AJ: Yes, sure. Yes. Even when it has the alien. Like, double mouth. 

MF: It does have a double mouth. And many teeth. 

AJ: Lots. 

MF: Lots and lots of teeth. 

AJ: Lots. 

MF: But it's giving you dog energy. 

AJ: I think maybe everything gives me a dog energy, but I'm also a cat person. But it doesn't give cat. 

MF: No, it definitely does not give like, curl up…

AJ: It’s sort of slug meets snake, 

MF: Slug-dog pig. It's giving me kind of pig energy. 

AJ: Wait, is it the lamb? Is it a lamb? And is the butcher's knife Landry, who, by the way, sucks? 

MF: We're going to come back. We're coming back to Landry. 

AJ: Landry sucks. Landry is mean. She's a bully and she died. And I will say that normally I don't appreciate fridging. I don't appreciate when a female character dies so that a male character has inspiration or motivation to do something. 

MF: Right. 

AJ: But that is not what happened here and she deserved it.

MF: I agree. Hard agree. 

AJ: She's very like, “I'm gonna go in here and I'm gonna achieve the mission.” And it's like, “But do you have to be mean?” 

MF: But also, listening is important. You may not know this yet, but listening is the Starfleet way. We try to listen first. 

AJ: Is that General Order 1? 

MF: It is not. 

AJ: Okay. Okay. 

MF: No, according to you, General Order 1 is “do no harm.” 

AJ: Do no harm. It's fine. Because Captain Lovely Lorca is relentless, they figure out that the slug can help them make the jumps. 

MF: Can we call him the tardigrade? Well, and also, why am I gendering the tardigrade? 

AJ: I don't know. That’s so interesting. I also thought of it as a him. Okay. Slight detour. 

MF: Sure. 

AJ: I wonder if it's because when we typically see a character that is non-human, when they want to signal that it's a woman, I think usually they're pregnant and there's like, the stomach is hurting and what's wrong with it. And then you realize it's about to have babies. And because that didn't happen and we're conditioned to think if they aren't portraying her as motherly, then here we are thinking him. And here we are with the tardigrade. 

MF: Yeah. It could also be that the tardigrade is, when we first meet it, it is buck wild, aggressive, killing without any kind of discretion.

AJ: Yeah. Brutally. 

MF: Brutally. 

AJ: Yes. 

MF: Dispatching Klingon warriors, your boy that was like, “Shh,” and the tardigrade was like, “Yomp!” 

AJ: I loved that. 

MF: Yomp! 

AJ: I loved that. 

MF: That gave male energy to me. 

AJ: It did. 

MF: I don't know. 

AJ: It did. 

MF: So anyway, the tardigrade, 

AJ: Well, which is interesting because Landry is giving aggression, which led to her demise…

MF: Correct. 

AJ: …which we typically think of as a male characteristic. 

MF: Sure. 

AJ: And maybe that's one of the reasons that here I am saying she's mean and a bully because I don't hate that Lorca is mean and a bully. And he does not deserve to die. He is, but it makes him…oh, this is toxic…it makes him hot. Oh, it's true. We can't be here if we can't be honest. 

MF: Well, we are nothing if not honest. 

AJ: Okay. So… 

MF: Okay. So back to the recap. 

AJ: Captain Lorca. Relentless. Eventually, they successfully make the jump. They rescue some people. They blow up a bunch of Klingons. They jump back. Meanwhile, there's a little love story going on between L'Rell and Voq. 

MF: Voq. 

AJ: She saves his life. They sort of run off together, but not really. 

MF: So, now we do understand that the Klingons have genders. 

AJ: We do understand. And the sexual chemistry between L'Rell and Voq is almost as sizzling as between Lorca and Stamets. I'm shipping it. 

MF: Lorca and Stamets. 

AJ: Obviously. Obviously. And you know what, I would venture to guess if I went to any of the fanfic sites… 

MF: Maybe. 

AJ: …there are entire novellas about Lorca and Stamets . 

MF: There's no doubt in my mind that if there exists shipping fanfic about Lorca and Stamets…  Lomets or Storka? It has to be… 

AJ: I don't like Storka. 

MF: Yeah, no, that's the clear choice.

AJ: Because the one thing they're not going to do is impregnate one another. And it's giving Stork. 

MF: You don't know what is possible in the 23rd century. 

AJ: True. And that's the end of the episode. Oh, and Tilly is cool now. She's fine. 

MF: You're okay with Tilly. 

AJ: She's growing on me, but that's part of why I didn't like her in the last episode. It's because…ah…and this is the problem of being so into television that I see her and I know this is the character that starts here. 

MF: She’s a vehicle for something.

AJ: Character arc: we're gonna grow to love her and it makes me suspicious of her, but there's nothing to be suspicious of.

MF: I'm going to…spoiler alert. 

AJ: No. 

MF: Yeah. We love Tilly, period. 

AJ: You said we loved Saru. 

MF: Well, 

AJ: And I don't, and he is shady. He is shady in this episode, 

MF: I do love Saru. I continue to love Saru, but also Tilly, okay. This is a good time to mention that I am in Season 5. I am working my way through the final season and Tillie, up to and through… 

AJ: This is crazy because for all I know I'm supposed to mourn her in some crazy death at the end of the season and we'll cry because we just got to know her. 

MF: I'm not going to do that to you. 

AJ: Is this a Trekkie thing? 

MF: What's that? 

AJ: Do Trekkies, and I'm speaking to all of you out there, I'm sorry, I just am. If there's a newbie…

MF: And here I am, the voice of Trek right now. 

AJ: If there's a newbie, do we have to do it silently? Because… 

MF: What do you mean “There's a newbie”? 

AJ: If you're a newbie to this world, do you have to walk in silence for fear that a Trekkie who loves it all and is into it won't be able to help themselves and will say, “Oh, what about all of the things?” because you know… 

MF: That is my threat ganglia. When you say “I'm kind of starting to like Tilly,” my threat ganglia pop out. It is a Star Trek thing. Star Trek, for the most part, does not do the Game of Thrones thing where you think you're all in on this character and then they're like, “Surprise, head chopped off.” 

AJ: I don't know if newbies want to know that. Because Tilly is the kind of character… 

MF: Star Trek doesn't do that, though. Like, that's not a Star Trek thing.

AJ: But Tilly's the kind of character who, let's say someone had to be there to manually flip a switch so that it would blow up. Tilly, to me, I could see her later in the season being someone who says, “I'll be the one. I hate for it to be this.” And then we're sobbing, but here you are telling me it's not going to happen. She'll be fine. So am I going to lose some… 

MF: Maybe. 

AJ: …investment in what happens? 

MF: I think Tilly is enough of a character that you're not going to lose the investment. So, that is a spoiler that we're, we're not losing Tilly. Tilly's going to be with us. Again, I have not finished the show, so I don’t know.

AJ: I don't want any more spoilers. 

MF: I'm going to do my best, but also… 

AJ: Part of this is an emotional journey. 

MF: I know. 

AJ: And the writers, if the writers want me to worry about her, you have to let me. 

MF: Are you worried about Tilly? 

AJ: No.

MF: Okay.

AJ: But I just got to know her. I mean, I still don't even fully like Tilly. 

MF: Who are you invested in? 

AJ: Because Tilly was out here in the beginning of the episode, or last episode…

MF: She was lying.

AJ: …being like, “I'm a mean girl, you can't sit with us.” 

MF: No, no, no, no, no. She never gave mean girl. She never, never, never. 

AJ: She literally said, “You can't sit with us.” No, okay, it wasn't even literally, because she just said, “You can't, someone's already here, we have assigned seating.”

MF: She lied. 

AJ: And then Stamets was like, “It's not like we have assigned seating.” 

MF: I know. 

AJ: Tilly’s a liar. 

MF: That was uncomfortable. But she also admitted to that. 

AJ: Yes. 

MF: Yeah. 

AJ: And part of her character arc…

MF: …is that she cannot tolerate. Yeah, that's right. That's what I'm saying. She's the kind of character that she's like, “I lied to you. And I literally cannot let the…” (I was gonna say “the sun go down” but we're in space, so…). 

AJ: We are in space. 

MF: “I cannot let the service day end without me telling you that I kind of accidentally lied about that.” 

AJ: I wonder if this will be an aspect of Star Trek that I don't love. 

MF: Tell me. 

AJ: And here's why. Sometimes…

MF: I need to take a sip.

AJ: …a viewer or a fan doesn't feel like there are enough stakes if there isn't a life on the line. If you keep bringing someone back from the dead, for example, 

MF: That's a modern, that's a modern thing. 

AJ: Yes. If you see, or if someone dies off screen… 

MF: This is Stephen King’s Misery. 

AJ: Love that movie. 

MF: That's what this is. 

AJ: If someone dies off screen, and then they pop back and they're like, “I'm still here,” sometimes you lose the story because it doesn't have the stakes. And with Marvel part of…I love Tony Stark. May he rest. But every time I see an article that says, “Maybe Robert Downey Jr. will come back,” I think, “No, I want him to have lived.” 

MF: “He didn't get out of the cock-a-doodie car!” Misery. 

AJ: Oh, Misery.

MF: Annie Wilkes keeps James Caan hostage. 

AJ: Yes. 

MF: Because she's like, “You tried to write your way out of Misery dying.” 

AJ: Right. 

MF: “Misery died.” 

AJ: Right. 

MF: “And you can't go backwards.” 

AJ: But the reason you can't is because you want your audience to feel that genuine connection and grief. I still cry when I watch Endgame. Spoilers: a lot of people die. And so, it'll be interesting to see in Star Trek, if that's not the vibe, if it's not like, you know, all of a sudden someone is like, “I'm taking one for the team. I'm out,” and I'm not sobbing. Will I still feel the same connection as when I did in Star Wars, when you see, you know, Luke who says, “I'm going to do this last thing and then I'm gone. This is the end of my journey.” Part of what I love about being in a fandom is when I am sitting on my couch and sobbing because somebody has gone who meant so much to me. 

MF: Or standing up, hands on your knees, because you can't breathe because you've just lost the one. 

AJ: Is Star Trek not like that?

MF: Star Trek doesn't do that shit. It doesn't. 

AJ: So, what are the stakes?

MF: Listen, hold on, hold on, hold on. 

AJ: Okay. 

MF: The second Star Trek original series film, The Wrath of Khan. Spock, spoiler alert, sacrifices himself because he knows that he's biologically more capable of doing what needs to be done than a human, so a human jumps in there, boom, you're dead immediately, but he can hang in there a little bit longer to get them what they need. So, he goes in here, but he knows it's a one way, it's a one-way ticket. 

AJ: One-way ticket. Yeah. 

MF: Right. So, Spock's inside here and Kirk is like, “The fuck? You didn't have to do this, dude. And we are at least best friends. At most more than that.” 

AJ: Right. 

MF:  It's in this moment where Spock is like, “I had to do this because the needs of the many outweighed the needs…” 

AJ: “…those of the few.” 

MF: Exactly. So, this is how Star Trek II, the movie, ends. But in Star Trek III… 

AJ: Wait, there are movies that don't star Chris Pine? 

MF: Oh, babe. My sweet, my sweet… 

AJ: I didn't know that. Okay. 

MF: There are, let me do the quick math…

AJ: This is a tough look for me, I fear. This is like the person who says, “There was a Spider Man before Tom Holland.” Ah, that's so embarrassing. 

MF: So, six movies with the cast from The Original Series, plus three with the cast from… 

AJ: Next Generation. Brave New World. 

MF: No, no, no, no, no. 

AJ: The Animated Series. Enterprise. Enterprise. Is it Enterprise? What is Enterprise? Is it because I'm not phrasing it as a question?

MF: No. 

AJ: Okay. Okay. 

MF: No. Enterprise got no movies. And there are other shows that got… 

AJ: That's not true. Wasn't Chris Pine from Enterprise? 

MF: That cast from the show Enterprise got no movies. 

AJ: Okay, 

MF: So, Original Series got movies, Next Generation got movies. No more movies until the JJ Abrams… 

AJ: Okay.

MF: The Chris Pine. 

AJ: Yes. 

MF: So, anyway. This moment is classic Star Trek because we finish out Star Trek II thinking Spock died. Spock. Died. Star Trek III, the movie, is all about, “Just kidding.” 

AJ: Okay, so it's a little Infinity War, Endgame-ish. Like, Black Panther was never gonna be dead.

MF: Correct. 

AJ: But it still was devastating. 

MF: Devastating. 

AJ: I still sobbed. Well, I'm sorry that Tilly won't get to experience… 

MF: I don't know that. 

AJ: Okay. We don't know. We don't know. Okay. 

MF: But I feel pretty confident that Tilly's good. 

AJ: Can I really feel connected to Tilly now that you've told me that she survives? And that's fine. I'm happy for her. 

MF: Yeah. So, Star Trek does a thing where…oh, I do want to tread carefully…no, I think it is a very Star Trek thing, actually, to when we lose a character, maybe they're not actually lost. We say goodbye, but we don't really say goodbye. Even if we literally saw you die. So, let's, just for example, I had hope that when we started this show with Academy Award winner Michelle Yeoh, that when, she died, that we would be like, “Okay, yeah, but she's back, right?” But then in this episode, they, literally, my notes say, “WELP, if we had hoped that Georgiou made it somehow, there goes that, because they said they picked the meat from her smooth skull.”

AJ: Yeah. May she rest in perfect peace, 

MF: Because we love Georgiou. And we miss her. 

AJ: But now we have Captain Lorca.  

MF: Yes, that's true. But I will just say, Star Trek has a thing where you're gone, but you're not gone gone. Ooh, that might be a spoiler. 

AJ: That's fair. 

MF: You don't bring on Michelle Yeoh for two episodes. 

AJ: I mean, tell that to Drew Barrymore in Scream. 

MF: Well, you're right. I know. Stay tuned.

AJ: I don't know if it's a spoiler. I mean, in Star Wars, you have the Force ghost. So, they're gone, but they're not really gone. 

MF: Yeah, yeah. I don't know.   

AJ: Okay. I did have a question about the Glenn. We have Enterprise, which is not in, it's not this show, but I know that Enterprise is the name.

MF: You are aware of the Enterprise. 

AJ: I am aware of the Enterprise. We have Discovery. 

MF: And then… 

AJ: And then we have the Glenn. 

MF: Glenn. Starship Glenn, it doesn't really 

AJ: It doesn’t seem like it lives up to the prestige of Starfleet.

MF: It doesn't inspire the same way that Enterprise. 

AJ: When you're going through the Academy, I don't know if anyone's like, “I can't wait to be on the Glenn.” So, in all of these other iterations…

MF: “You know what I'm trying to get on? The Glenn.” Right. 

AJ: “Have to get on the Glenn.” 

MF: This is another Star Trek thing. So, when I hear Glenn, my brain automatically goes to John Glenn, the astronaut who was the first U. S. astronaut to orbit. He was one of the earliest U. S. astronauts. And I think he is important because he went back into space at…

AJ: He's an explorer. 

MF: …like 70 plus. 

AJ: Okay. 

MF: So, when I hear the Glenn, I feel like maybe that's a nod to John Glenn, but also that is a Star Trek thing. You will find that they name ships after important space figures. I don't remember what episode it is, but there is a listing of ships and I remember the name Ride being one of those ships. Ride is Sally Ride. 

AJ: Oh, okay. And not the one with the diapers, 

MF: The diapers. 

AJ: Is she the one who put on diapers and drove across several states…

MF: Oh girl.

AJ: …but didn't want to stop because she was in a love triangle? 

MF: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Sally Ride is the first woman in space. 

AJ: Computer… 

MF: …delete. Computer… 

AJ: Respectfully… 

MF: Respectfully, please delete. How dare you? No, Sally Ride was the first woman in space, first female U.S. Astronaut. But anyway, so, they mentioned the Ride. It's like in a list of do, do, do, Ride, blah, blah, blah. And so, Star Trek has a thing where they will very gently reach out with names that they know we will recognize. And so, I thought the Glenn was one of those names that they thought we would recognize. 

AJ: So, that's not even an Easter egg for Trekkies. That's an Easter egg for anyone who knows their American history. 

MF: Or just space.

AJ: And apparently, I skipped that grade. 

MF: You're like, “So…Glenn.” 

AJ: Glenn. The Glenn. 

MF: You might have been, I don't know, you might have been distracted by Sonequa Martin Green and The Walking Dead, and Glenn being a character in The Walking Dead. Maybe. 

AJ: Maybe. 

MF: Glenn didn’t give it to you.

AJ: It just didn't feel as prestigious. 

MF: Glenn was not giving it. 

AJ: Especially for if it's a science ship… 

MF: Totally science ship. 

AJ: …if they're doing groundbreaking things like popping around through space…I don't know. I just don't know if I, I would think of the Glen as…

MF: Yeah. 

AJ: …as one of the more prestigious ones as you would Discovery. I mean, come on. 

MF: Enterprise. I know, but Star Trek also names…Voyager? Excuse me.

AJ: Is that one of the shows? 

MF: Defiant? 

AJ: Voyager? 

MF: Oh shit.

AJ: Next Voyager! Next Voyager! 

MF: No. I did give Voyager away. No, it's not. 

AJ: I'm writing that down for trivia. Writing it down for trivia. 

MF: It's not “Next.” I did give that away. I did give that away. That's, that's okay. I'm okay to give that one away. 

AJ: That's okay. 

MF: It's not The Voyager, it's Voyager. 

AJ: That's another name of a thing. Oh, Next Voyager, I have that. 

MF: No, just X out Next Voyager. That's not a thing. 

AJ: Next Generation. And to the Trek listeners, I'm not sorry. This is what happens. Have grace, show us grace. I'm not sorry. I'm in it. I'm with it. It's going to be a journey. 

MF: “I'm not sorry.” 

AJ: I'm not. I'm not. Name all the Star Wars movies in order. 

MF: Yeah, I cannot. 

AJ: I'm okay with that. 

MF: I mean…no, the movies, I think I could. That may be another episode. 

AJ: Okay, that's another. It's like a side… 

MF: Yeah, 

AJ: It's like when you're in the sickbay… 

MF: That’s a side quest.

AJ: …but the sickbay is full so you have to wait in the hallway. So, maybe the hallway is other fandoms? 

MF: Oh, shit. That is a sad commentary on the status of health care. Anyway, the butcher's knife cares not for the lamb’s cry. 

AJ: I just don't know what that is about. 

MF: Yeah, I actually don't either.  In this episode, we learn that Lorca is, to put it in Stamets’s terms, a warmonger. 

AJ: Yeah, he's relentless and maybe without empathy. 

MF: Stamets is not a fan. 

AJ: Yeah. 

MF: Because Stamets is a scientist. 

AJ: Also appears to be without empathy. 

MF: A little bit. 

AJ: In this episode. 

MF: In this episode. Right. And he is offended by Lorca's aggressive, “This is the battle. We have to go in, win, get out.” So, is Discovery the butcher's knife? 

AJ: I think the butcher's knife is Captain Lorca, and he's in a “by any means necessary” vibe. And “by any means necessary” could mean animal cruelty, unfortunately. And so… 

MF: The tardigrade. 

AJ: …we see the tardigrade crying out. And it helps us to contextualize Michael Burnham as seeing her having a little more emotion each episode. Because she is fully empathetic. And now we're sort of, we're seeing and feeling things through her. And, you know, the butcher's knife is, these are things that we have to do. And if we need to eat, and there's the lamb, it might cry out, but we're hungry. And Landry, unfortunately, suffered the consequences of that. 

MF: Landry had it coming because Landry didn't listen to Michael. .

AJ: Landry was a good soldier. And when you’re at war, you can't have people who’re talking back or questioning orders. And she was doing her job. And look, if Captain Lorca asked me literally anything, aye, aye, captain. Aye, aye. It's the emoji with the hand on the forehead for me.

MF: It's the salute. 

AJ: It’s the salute for me. And if he said cut off a finger…

MF: “Is someone in sickbay going to be able to just like suture it off?” 

AJ: It again goes back to are we being a little hypocritical when we're talking about what matters more, the many or the few? And it's possible that in Captain Lorca's mind, this is something that we have to do. And if we have to sacrifice this poor slug… 

MF: Tardigrade. 

AJ: …to save the many, then I don't, I can't even listen to the cry. We need to do what we have to do. 

MF: Lorca is unbelievably focused. His clarity of direction is unimpeachable. 

AJ: Yeah. It's not even morality. It's the mission. 

MF: That's also not really a Star Trek thing. 

AJ: Interesting. 

MF: Whenever we get a captain who is so laser focused on something, those of us who are Trekkies look at that with a great deal of skepticism.

AJ: Okay, so you're suspicious of him. 

MF: Yeah, already, because our greats, the ones that we elevate to legendary status, are the ones who are checking in: “Yeah, so am I right here? We're all on board, we all agree, it's a consensus, great, boom, let's do this.” And Lorca right now is giving, “This is what we're doing.” 

AJ: Yes. 

MF: And because I'm primed to think of Jason Isaacs as… 

AJ: A villain.

MF: …a villain, right? I've got a good amount of skepticism about Jason Isaacs. 

AJ: Here's what I'll say about… 

MF: And that bleeds over into Lorca. 

AJ: Here's what I'll say about Michael Burnham in this episode and villains and heroes and because I've been so hard on Mr. Saru in the past. She doesn't treat him well. She's rude to him. She's cold. 

MF: Manipulative. 

AJ: Manipulative. 

MF: She used him for his threat ganglia. 

AJ: She did. 

MF: Okay. Let's just be honest about that. She was like, “If I can get your threat ganglia to flare…” 

AJ: She did. I still think Mr. Saru is shady, but it's interesting this dance that we're playing with Michael Burnham. Do we like her? Do we not? Of course, we're supposed to root for her, but why should we? She's being a little standoffish to Tilly, who most people are immediately like, “Yes, we love Tilly.” But we also know that she's grieving. I mean, the episode opens and closes. with Captain Georgiou's last will and testament. And grief is tough. 

MF: Yeah. And I love that you're starting to form opinions about these characters, and you're starting to pick sides. You're starting to understand the landscape in a way that I think is going to be really interesting. 

AJ: There were a lot of Klingons in this episode, and I wish that I felt more connected to them. I hope for the fun of it, for funsies, that there's a storyline with the Klingons where I think, “Hmm, who am I going to root for here?” But right now, it's not it. 

MF: Not yet. All right. Well, let's get to the quiz. 

AJ: Let's get to the quiz. 

MF: All right, question number one: are you a Trekkie? 

AJ: No. But I deeply respect them. 

MF: Okay, I feel like that's progress. 

AJ: I almost feel like feel like maybe I should have done this quietly. Like if it took you a long time to finish college and you just kind of want to do it quietly and then tell everyone after, “I finished” and then you can celebrate.

MF: Yeah. I know 

AJ: I would feel the same for other fandoms. I'd be like, “Have you gotten to this yet? Wait, that was a spoiler.” So… 

MF: The amount of what you know now, but what you don't know is…it's uncomfortable for me. I'm just going to be honest. Okay. You're not a Trekkie. That's okay. All right. What is the proper response if a Vulcan tells you “Live long and prosper”? 

AJ: I still don't know. 

MF: Okay. 

AJ: But we didn't have Sarek. 

MF: We didn't. We didn't have a lot of Vulcans in this episode. So, that's okay. Who created Star Trek? 

AJ: I don't know. Yeah. And I'm nervous. I mean… 

MF: So, we should be very clear that you have committed to not Googling or doing any kind of internet search to find these answers. These are the answers that have to come to you naturally. 

AJ: And naturally is not just from the show. 

MF: Right, right, right. 

AJ: As I'm sharing with friends and family… 

MF: Yes. 

AJ: …that I'm doing the Star Trek thing…

MF: Yes. 

AJ: …they're telling me things. 

MF: Yes, which is fine. 

AJ: So, I'm excited for some of that. 

MF: So, for example, what is the T in James T. Kirk? What is the answer to that? 

AJ:  I know this. 

MF: Yes. 

AJ: Captain Kirk's…oh. Is his last name Kirk? 

MF: Oh my god. 

AJ: Wait, is his last name Kirk? What's his first name? 

MF: James. 

AJ: Okay, his government name is Captain James Tiberius Kirk. 

MF: I want you to put a little bit more I in the Tiberius. 

AJ: Captain James Tiberius Kirk. 

MF: Yes, that is correct.

AJ: Aye, aye. 

MF: Yes, James Tiberius Kirk. Yes. So, you…you…you were talking about this with somebody and…and that person was a fan of Star Trek and they said, “What you know about James Tiberius Kirk?” 

AJ: I don't want… 

MF: Nothing, but you learned. 

AJ: …to stereotype people. 

MF: Yeah. 

AJ: But this is a Black man, well respected (not that Trekkies are not well respected) within the political scene, and I was a little nervous to say what I was working on. I called it nerdy and that's a compliment for some people… 

MF: It is nerdy.

AJ: …but it's also sort of a… 

MF: I'm not mad at it. 

AJ: …”Ahh, don't judge me” thing. And he said, “Oh my God, Kirk is the man!!!” Three exclamation marks. Tiberius Kirk. I thought it was so fun because I didn't know if people would either say, “Oh, I'm a Trekkie” and they're all in or “Okay.” 

MF: “Why would you do that?” 

AJ: And it, it was so surprising and it was a joy. And I felt like, “Okay, I have this new thing to talk to him about.” And I got a quiz question. 

MF: Boom. 

AJ: Boom. 

MF: Got it. So, what's the Prime Directive? 

AJ: I don't know. Is the Prime Directive General Order 1? 

MF: It actually is. It actually is. 

AJ: Oh…my…yes. Do no harm. 

MF: Incorrect. 

AJ: Okay. Yeah, but I'm so… 

MF: But you're close. 

AJ: Okay. Got it. 

MF: You're…you're right on top of it. Okay. Who's the Klingon Jesus? 

AJ: T'Kuvma, my Lord. Is that not right? 

MF: That is not right. 

AJ: Your face is…

MF: That is not right. Oh no. Ashley.

AJ: I was so excited. 

MF: Oh no. I felt like this was a softball.

AJ: I was so excited when I watched the episode… 

MF: No. No. 

AJ: …and they were talking about…

MF: We met T'Kuvma. 

AJ: T’Kuvma, my lord. Oh, maybe I have it. Hold on. I have other Klingon notes here. I do. Is dilithium? No, that's not it. No, that's the gas of the ship. 

MF: Yeah. 

AJ: Oh, this is tough because you should have seen…I think I texted you and said… 

MF: You did. You said, “I've got it. I'm ready. I know the…” 

AJ: Kahless. 

MF: Yes, but say it right. 

AJ: Kahless. Kahless.

MF: No, no, no, no, no. 

AJ: Kah-less. 

MF: No. No. Kahless. 

AJ: Kahless.

MF: Yes. That is correct. 

AJ: Okay. I have that written down as the Klingon planet.

MF: No, that’s not right. 

AJ: So, now I'm really stuck. That's right because that is in fact a trivia question. Okay. So Kahless, my Lord, 

MF: Klingon Jesus.

AJ: Okay. 

MF: And so, then… 

AJ: Who is T'Kuvma? 

MF: Remember he died. 

AJ: Oh, “Sacrifice me.” He's the martyr. 

MF: He's the martyr. 

AJ: He's the martyr. 

MF: And so, it's up to Voq and L’Rell to carry on what T'Kuvma started.

AJ: I stand by he's a false prophet. 

MF: Who is? T’Kuvma? 

AJ: Yeah. Isn't he the one who was having flashbacks and he said, “I prophesized about this”? He's a false prophet. 

MF: Mm. We'll see. 

AJ: Okay. We'll see. 

MF: All right. 

AJ: And maybe he'll come back in another universe. I don't know. 

MF: Maybe he will. Okay. I think that's probably a good place to stop. 

AJ: I do wonder if something that happened in this episode speaks to how I did on the quiz. Someone on the bridge says, “We'll do better next time.” And Captain Lorca said, “It would be hard to do worse.” So, I will just leave you with, I will do better next time. Kahless my lord. Because I understand it would be hard to do worse. 

MF: There couldn't be a more perfect close to this episode. I think we'll see you next time. 

AJ: We will. 

Epilogue:

Welcome back. 

Before we get to the prescription, I want you to know that I did a little fact checking on myself. Accuracy is important to me, and while I’m fine with leaving alone matters that are up for differences in interpretation, the idea of coming down on the wrong side of a clear true or false situation will HAUNT me. For example, at one point in our conversation for this episode, I said “illuminaries” instead of just “luminaries” and Ashley didn’t even call me on it, God love her. And if you’re wondering WHY you didn’t hear me say that, it’s because I deleted that shit and I’m not even sorry about it because it was kind of a trash point I was trying to make anyway. And so, still reeling from the affront to my ears that was the term “illuminaries,” my threat ganglia SHOWED OUT when, upon editing, I realized I’d said there were only nine Star Trek movies before the J.J. Abrams era. There are, of course, TEN movies. I haven’t pursued the reasons behind it, but I have this weird mental block where I regularly forget EITHER Insurrection OR Nemesis. Like, sometimes I remember Insurrection, and sometimes I remember Nemesis, but usually not both. I’m fully mortified by the error, and I’m just glad I caught it before I released this episode to the world and found myself in the role of Loudly Dead Ass Wrong Dearly Departed Admiral What’s His Name Who Always Plays That Guy.

I also want to revisit the idea that our most legendary leaders—our captains, in the case of Star Trek—I want to return to the comment I made about how they are the ones who regularly do check-ins with the team. Earlier, I made the comment, and I stand by my statement that the best captains are the ones who listen closely to their teams, or the bridge crew, or their closest allies, whatever, but I can also easily think of dozens of examples where our cute little legends did whatever they thought was right, whatever they wanted, even in times when the rest of the ship didn’t quite agree. “

All Good Things,” the Next Generation finale, is a perfect example of what I mean here. Trying to work around the spoilers here is tough, so it will need to suffice to say that Picard’s crews in this episode (or these episodes…it’s a two-parter), his crews have plenty of reason to doubt him, and he just keeps plugging away through their doubts, full steam ahead, taking no more than a half-second to deal with the inconvenience of their concern. We the audience know he’s right, he’s Picard, they can trust him, but we can also sympathize with how annoying it must be to feel invisible and silent. Janeway in “Year of Hell” on Voyager is another fantastic example of a great captain who empowers her team and gives them the space to speak up, but she also plays the captain card without as much as a pause for dramatic effect. And don’t even get me started on Sisko or Pike or everyone’s favorite, Captain Kirk Tiberius. 

That Starfleet list of great captains is full of folks who trusted their teams and listened to them AND occasionally had to do what the rights and privileges associated with their rank allowed them to do. That is the Star Trek way: try to build agreement, but if you gotta drive a one-seater from time to time, it’s allowed, and doing so doesn’t make you a bad captain. But let’s take a beat. If we’re speaking of bad captains, when we gather up all the WORST captains in Star Trek history, it seems to me that there is a bright, common thread and it’s that consensus-building on the bridge is their exception, not their standard. Today’s television audiences in general are experienced enough to notice that when solo mode is a leader’s status quo, said leader is not long for their world. Their refusal to listen signals those under their charge, just as it signals those of us watching, that danger awaits.

Are you ready to pick up this prescription? It looks like I have leadership-flavored remedies for you two episodes in a row! Watching Lorca bully through his time in the captain’s chair is a fascinating experience if not a healing one for any of us who have been under the supervision of a Lorca, or even worse, a Landry. It might be even more fascinating for those of us who might be at risk of becoming a Landry or a Lorca ourselves. It occurs to me that Lorca is presented to us as being unaware of the flaws in his leadership style. He sees nothing wrong with his approach. He’s got a job to do, and he’ll do it how he sees fit. Do you watch this episode like a mirror? Has anyone tagged you in a tweet about it and said, “This you?”

Remember, the butcher’s knife cares not for the lamb’s cry. That’s understandable. The knife can’t care. It’s just a tool. The butcher, on the other hand, should care. The butcher still has a job to do, but I would rather them work from a position of compassion and gratitude and the connectedness of it all. Ashley said that Lorca is the butcher’s knife. I think Lorca thinks Lorca is the butcher’s knife. But if we read Lorca as not the butcher’s knife but the actual butcher, the one who hears and should care about the lamb’s cry, then we can use Lorca as a cautionary tale as we fine tune our own manifestations of management.   

That’s just about going to do it, but before we put this episode in dry dock, I’d like to leave you with one last fun fact. Ashley and I talked briefly about John Glenn, the first U.S. Astronaut to orbit the earth, and how his importance in the history of the human space effort was the likely inspiration for naming the Starship Glenn. But here’s where Star Trek shows its brilliance. At the age of SEVENTY SEVEN Earth years of age, in 1998, John Glenn returned to space after he had retired from NASA back in 1964. The idea of being physically and mentally fit enough to be astronauting all over the place at 77 makes me want to hit the gym this instant. It’s beyond impressive. So, maybe it wasn’t just the fact that he was a first, as in the FIRST astronaut to orbit our planet. Maybe it was this other achievement, which some might say was even more noteworthy. Oh, and do you want to guess the NAME of the Space Shuttle that took 77-year-old John Glenn into space and returned him safely home? I’m sure you guessed it. It was the Space Shuttle…Discovery. We should have known there was an extra helping of meaning there. Star Trek does not miss an opportunity to put layers on layers.

And that, my friends, brings us to our conclusion for this episode. If you check out the show notes, I’ve linked some videos of a few of the pop culture references we made during this episode there. Proceed at your own risk, though. It took less than 10 seconds for me to go from zero to sobbing at the sight of Spock getting up and straightening his uniform, okay?

“The Butcher’s Knife Cares Not for the Lamb’s Cry” was directed by Olatunde Osunsanmi, and I feel unworthy and intimidated by the quality of his work. The direction was FIRE on this one. The writers for the episode, also on fire, included Bryan Fuller and Alex Kurtzman as creators of the show, Jesse Alexander, Aron Eli Coleite (co-light), we’ve got Bowie Kim and Erika Lippoldt as the executive story editors, and Kirsten Beyer, Sean Cochran, and Kemp Powers as staff writers. And of course, an eternal shout out to the big guy himself, Gene Roddenberry.

We have now reached the part of our appointment where it’s time for me to give you some instructions for what to do when we part ways just in case you don’t remember what we’ve discussed. We’re now in season five which means four other seasons of The TV Doctor are waiting for your love. Please go check them out and leave me a five-star rating and say sweet words about our work in the review section. I have it on good authority that the person who writes the best review will have their words immortalized on a tee-shirt that I will wear at an upcoming event AND on social media. So, I’m just saying. There’s an incentive there. 

Speaking of social media, if you’re not following The TV Doctor on Instagram and Twitter, what are you waiting for? Imagine I’m Jennifer Love Hewitt in I Know What You Did Last Summer, spinning around in my twinset in the middle of the street, screaming at the sky! Follow us! What are you waiting for? Let’s get interactive! Follow me, M. Foss, on Instagram and Twitter at tee vee phd, and follow Ashley at Ashley Johnson ca on all the things. And if you need merch, you can find the link to the TV Doctor TeePublic store by visiting our website over at thetvdoc.com, so that’s thetvdoc.com.

On behalf of my number one and I, we thank you so much, again and again, for joining us here. And don’t forget to schedule your next appointment on your way out. Take good care, friends.