Tom Hootman (02:49) ⁓ First question right out of the gates. I ask everyone this now, now I say, I'm actually gonna go back to the first couple of guests and ask them, because I wanna build a master playlist. What three song playlist would be the soundtrack to your career? Aaron Levy (03:00) Three songs? You said one song. I got a workbook and everything. Okay, See, workbook. Yeah, because Kayla and I really are siblings. Okay, so I got first one to pop to mind, obviously. Cream by Wu Tang. Cash rules everything around me. That one's maybe not the top of the list, but it's the first one that popped into my head. I... Tom Hootman (03:05) I always, did that to Kayla too, by the way. That's pretty good. That's good. That also dates you a bit. It shows your age. Aaron Levy (03:23) Kinda did that on purpose, I wanted to give people an eye into the best era of music, which was the early 90s to early aughts. think I do have three that I would wanna put on my list. The other one that I put as a fun one is, if you wanna be my lover, by Spice Girls, gotta get with my friends. Cause let's be serious, what is marketing and sales other than making friends with friends? Before the show started, we were talking about this. You got referrals from your old friends who tell you that they love you. Tom Hootman (03:52) It's pretty great. They're really good people. Aaron Levy (03:53) Spice Girls, said it best. love Sporty Spice. I think the three actual songs that I would put, number one Clint Eastwood by The Gorillaz for a couple reasons. It's about, number one, it's kind of about drugs, that's not exactly why, but it's about taking a positive look at the world, it's about exploring yourself a little bit more, it's about listening to alter egos, it's about listening to yourself, all different versions of yourself. Also, think of my career, if you don't know about that song, the riff that it starts with, the do do do do do. Do you know where that came from? Tom Hootman (04:22) little like ⁓ toy. Yeah. Aaron Levy (04:24) It was the stock riff button for a little toy. And I a lot of my career and a lot of other people's careers, I heard an acronym from a Google training once that was CASE copy and steal everything. There is nothing original. So a lot of my life and career has been, you know, different iterations of other people's stuff. two, my favorite song growing up. And actually, I think one of the first CDs I ever bought is Smashing Pumpkins Tonight Tonight, which is... Number one about how Billy Corgan can't dance in the music video because he just stands there. But number two, it's about holding on to and learning from grief. A lot of what we're going to talk about in this podcast is about horror stories, things that went really poorly. And we're going to laugh about them because I think we both learned from them and it's hilarious to tell those stories now. And so I think a lot of my career as I was coming up and learning, like those moments, those really bad days, those getting screamed at by clients, I would hold onto those for way too long, but I would hold on to the same emotion that I had then. And it's not right. You got to hold onto the experience, remember it, but don't get sad or mad about it over and over again. You learn from it, you share it. ⁓ Tom Hootman (05:23) Man, you're so grown up. This is, this is fantastic. Aaron Levy (05:26) It did a worksheet. Number three, from the last concert I went to, which was Oasis at Wembley. Not the biggest Oasis fan in the world, but... Tom Hootman (05:36) You just said early 90s. Aaron Levy (05:38) Yeah, but come on, the Gallagher brothers are so weird. And they fight and they try to stab each other sometimes, but that was why I went to the show. But Oasis Lived Forever because the story behind that song is it is a semi-direct response to a really depressing Kurt Cobain song. When the two of them were up and coming, Oasis was up and coming, they're like, we don't have, quoting them, a pot to piss in, but I wake up every day excited for what the day is going to bring. Tom Hootman (05:42) part. Aaron Levy (06:02) versus this guy who's a kabillionaire, lives in a mansion. Obviously we know he had problems, but it's about being grateful for what you have, even though these two guys are snots and try to stab each other routinely. Tom Hootman (06:07) Yeah, couple. Excellent choices. Aaron Levy (06:15) Plus it's a catchy song. It's a catchy song. Tom Hootman (06:17) You have worked, when did you start in this industry? What year? Aaron Levy (06:20) I started when I was, I was trying to do this math the other day. I started when I was in college. believe I was 20, so that would be 19 years ago. So it's almost half of my life that I've been in the biz. And so. Tom Hootman (06:33) And you've been in a lot of pitches and you've done a lot of new biz and you've done a lot of client expansions and you've been fortunate to be in the room for some of these like horror stories we're gonna talk about. But like I wanna talk about a positive first. In the spirit of you being such a positive person out of the fucking blue, I love this question and I used to ask this, I still ask this question in interviews and I call it the Michael Jordan question, the flu game question, right? Of like. Tell me about a time when you had no business winning and you were back against the wall, sick as a dog, totally on your deathbed. You ended up answering the call and you dropped like 40 on the jazz, sorry, Jeff Allen, and crushed their spirits. Tell me about that time that you won when the greatest hit, no one ever asked about that you still like. think about the one you pull out of your pocket when you're like, here's this time I did this thing. Aaron Levy (07:23) It's funny, is a question that I always ask people in interviews too. I call it the refrigerator moment. Like what's the thing your mom put on the fridge because she was most proud of you. Because everyone always struggles to answer the good part, myself included. I can think of a couple of examples, but I think the one that I will share the most is maybe a relationship with my first client when I worked at Tinuti So I left Seer. and then went over to Tinuti and I was one of, well, it was Elite SEM at the time, so was one of their probably most senior outside hires that I know of at least. And I was taking over a client that had very publicly fired the agency before and said they were never going to use agencies again. And I had to start a little bit early because the client POC had gotten deported because Amazon forgot to renew her paperwork. Client wasn't Amazon, but they were under the umbrella. As I got in there, so I'm talking to director and senior director and CMO who are all trying to tell me what's going on with this account and they have no idea what's going on. No clue what's happening. I take over in the very beginning of Q4 and this is Ecom Company. And then I find the contract that has a one-hour response clause. Tom Hootman (08:34) ⁓ okay. Aaron Levy (08:35) And daily, daily calls. had daily calls. Tom Hootman (08:38) I've had a couple of those, but the one-hour response is aggressive. Aaron Levy (08:41) I was a little horrified when I started. so, mean, props to my old team at Elite then, Tinuti now. You we came up with a system for it. It never actually wound up getting used or enforced or whatever. Like we had a distribution list that like people across the country. So like it was never gonna be two in the morning for anybody. But so of this absolute nightmare onboarding and... come flying completely blind and talking to the client every single day, I will still very proudly say it is the best client relationship I have ever had because we all struggled together and we are all in kind of the trenches together. Myself, the paid search guy, talking with the CMO who doesn't know anything about paid search, but then we met on the same level of trying to figure out the strategy so we could both do our jobs well enough. And the reason why that one's so close to me is because A, anyone who sees that description of a client is going to run away immediately as far as they can. Number two, part of the reason why I loved getting into this industry in the beginning was because I joined when it was very new. And I like being a 20 year old who was getting attention from a C-suite because they were interested in what we were doing. This was a version of that, but we were actively working together to play the game together, which is I think what makes the best client. That's not having a CEO, CMO, whatever yell at you or threaten you into results. It's the ones who know their limitations, know what they're good at, but know where they can help. And they are more than willing to dive in the pool with you and jump in, but they also won't step on your toes and be Googling themselves all night. And I've never found a relationship that good since then. And again, I I had a large team working with me, but I was talking to the POC every day of the week for years. And I don't talk to the POC as much anymore, but I'm still close with the the folks who are the C-suite who are both at very big companies now. Tom Hootman (10:33) Yeah, I think that's good. That is ⁓ I there's a few various ways that I share that with my team and I've shared it before is like you want a client who's like you're all on the same side of a longer table versus on opposite sides of the table and you want a client who like the You just and I my whole thing has the there's no secret sauce. I could just talk to them I talk to them I show up and like we talk every month every every other month or I like check in and it's the ⁓ Aaron Levy (10:46) Mm-hmm. Tom Hootman (11:00) I said it 14 times yesterday with Kayla, but it's easy to do, but it's hard to make yourself do. And you could not talk. I mean, we've had clients we haven't talked to really for a decade who haven't quit. And you have clients you don't talk to for a month and quit. Like there's no way to know whether or not. And I think to me that just caused anxiety from day one. So I'd rather run toward that conversation and do everything I can to be closer to that client because Aaron Levy (11:07) Yes. Tom Hootman (11:26) what ends up happening is when you're on the same side of the table, they tell you when you're on strike one. Aaron Levy (11:30) Exactly, and they'll be transparent and there's no wondering. You know, I think we've both been through that client meeting where you go and they're like, we're extremely happy. And then you get fired a week later and then they're like, yeah, we found all these problems like three or four months ago. like, call me, call me, call me. Tom Hootman (11:45) Pebbles in the shoe. Yep. I mean, if you find a pebble in your shoe, you may not change your shoes immediately or take your shoe off because you can't. But eventually there was always that, well, let me tell you when it started. And you're like, ⁓ shit. And it's one of our one of our triggers for a red stoplight back in the Hanapin days was new decision maker. Aaron Levy (12:05) Yep, immediate red flag. Tom Hootman (12:07) And then number two was anytime they say, hey, can you send us a copy of the agreement? It's over. It's over. Aaron Levy (12:13) that one was not a default over that one was they're going to try to get cheaper fees sometimes so I would usually off them an extended contract for cheaper earlier so we wouldn't have to worry about that Tom Hootman (12:22) I would, yeah, that's true. I would say it's, you're geared up for an uncomfortable feeling, regardless. Aaron Levy (12:28) Yeah, the new decision maker immediate red flag, because you've got to convince them that you're better than whatever people they want to bring in. Tom Hootman (12:34) Yeah, I mean, that's how we lose a lot of clients in this business. it's funny, I used to sell chicken strips for US Foods and you would go, I was an outside sales rep and I would go to a country club or a restaurant and walk in the back door and try to sell the chef on buying groceries from me versus Cisco or Gordon Food Service. I had every sales rep who did it for a while, you had your chefs. Like I had my guy who was like, hey, Aaron Levy (12:43) Pardon? Mm-hmm. Tom Hootman (13:00) and chefs like to quit their jobs. And they're like, hey, I'm leaving, I'm gonna go to this other restaurant. So then it became a game of like, can I convince the new chef? And also like, you better call me. It's like, I'm gonna call you on day one. And then they're trying, like the competition's trying to convince my chef to stay with them while I'm trying to convince this new chef to stay with me. And you had chefs that went, like if a chef changed jobs three, four times, they brought me in every time. I mean, was the easiest way to, and it's relationships. It's an easy way to expand your business because you, and it's part of, think why I'm just in this seat now. I have a lot of people, it's a shitty time in our industry. A lot of people looking for jobs. I'm just trying to help people find jobs because I was raised Catholic, but I believe in karma. Like do good and it will come back to you. Aaron Levy (13:24) Mm-hmm. It's funny, I remember... It's gonna go a lot of different directions that I know already. Remember I was taking philosophy in high school and we got into an extended argument about the idea of altruism and the idea that altruism doesn't truly exist. And I'm one of those same people. And the reason why I say that is I did a similar exercise during the pandemic. Like we were just fighting so hard to keep our lights on. I don't have a wife or kids. I live alone. I was bored. craved human contact. So I did as much as I could to do. you know, job connections, would find everyone who was unemployed, I would start job threads to get everyone joining in. Certainly to a degree it was self-serving in the sense that like, okay, maybe later I'll have my own Rolodex. But from a quote unquote altruism perspective, I was bored. I needed to talk to people. This helped. Yes, good came out of it. And yes, I actually did get a pretty hearty Rolodex out of it and get more exposure and influential. Tom Hootman (14:30) There's a selfish component there. Aaron Levy (14:38) things but I was just trying to fill time and sometimes filling time by being a nice person has good results. Tom Hootman (14:44) Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I remember that you still do that. You do that a ton. And I mean, I admire that and appreciate it. I actually try to emulate a bit of that. Like you inspire me. And maybe you're not literally like, Aaron did this. I'm going to do this. But I see you doing it. I like like, man, that's really great. Like, and even I think of shared roles that you've shared and like just trying to like spin it forward. If there's one person it's trying to create the serendipity of like two people. coming together out of nowhere that can help find someone a gig and find someone a great marketer. It's interesting because I get a lot of people who reach out to me and it's great. Keep reaching out to me. And I'm a Midwest. If you're East Coast, I'm Midwest. If I get a message, I have to put it on my to-do list. I have to follow up with them. And all you got to do is say you found an agency to get buried in some spam. Aaron Levy (15:32) Mm-hmm. Yes, yes, especially AI spam now. Tom Hootman (15:37) And there are so many messages that I, oh, it's so great. There was a post yesterday where someone showed an AI spam from an executive and they like three messages in there, like say waffle three times. And it was like just kind of like called out the AI agent in it where like you just like, yeah, this is AI, whatever, waffle, waffle, waffle. And it was like no one in their right mind would say that if that was really that person. And I just, I felt bad. feel bad if I don't get back to people. I still fight that where like people get buried in spam and I'm like, shit, this person was cool. I want to help them. And you're right. Like in your heart of hearts, it's I have a great sales trainer who's like, if you have pure intentions, you're clean, right? Like you should. It's a it's a it's about detachment. It's about not needing the sale, right? It's about a sense of abundance and. It's. easy to have that in times of abundance. It's hard as fuck to do that when you're like, I could really use a sale. Aaron Levy (16:32) Yes it is, but... I mean... Let's talk about Catholic guilt because it's by my last name. I went to Villanova, I went to Catholic College. Don't you feel bad selling to people that don't need you or that are... We would go through Google Ads audits very often and see like, I gotta be honest, they're not doing anything wrong. Like we can do the audit where we find like, oh, in Phoenix at two in the morning, you're wasting money. Tom Hootman (16:52) There's nothing here. Aaron Levy (16:58) These folks are fine. If you want to change a scenery to come to us, here's some ideas, but I'm not going to blow them up. Tom Hootman (17:04) I do and I will say like that's part of what made Hanapin great in my opinion was that it drove me crazy because the client services team, we would say like if you're coming on this pitch with us, you're not allowed to say "it depends". Because they wouldn't put a number, they wouldn't say here's what I think we can drive. Aaron Levy (17:17) Hehehehehe I would ban best practices. That phrase is not allowed. Tom Hootman (17:25) And, and best practices came up and it's like you have to be like you have to step out on the plank a little bit. But at the same time, we had a number of those where, like one of our and Jeff talked about it in the first episode, there was a client who it was the opposite, they paid us to do an audit. And the audit like the account was so bad, we wouldn't take their money. And we were like, listen, everything's wrong, we're gonna give you we're not going to take your money. Aaron Levy (17:47) Hmm Tom Hootman (17:49) We can fix it. And that's an easier conversation to have, obviously. But there is a bit of you have to like the money's there for you to take. You have to be like, hey, like they might not come to us. And I still to this day, I'll have a prospect conversation and then it's not about SEO whatsoever. And I'll ask the SEO team to take a look at the site and I'll tell the prospect that hey, I'll ask the SEO crew to like, let me know if there's any red flags on the site. And that's, that's yours to keep. Right, like I don't care, take it because you just have to get, you have to get comfortable knowing the audit, the solutions blueprint, whatever you're delivering to them, they could take and hand it to the other agency. And I think part of that, like that detachment and abundance of like knowing that could happen and that's okay, leads to, hey, like we've had conversations where it's like, hey, like there's nothing wrong with this account. Like we're gonna do our best and we're gonna care and we're gonna try. and we're going to be great to work with, but if you're looking for a silver bullet, there isn't one. Aaron Levy (18:42) No, I mean your industry is going down. You gotta work on branding or whatever. It's not a performance marketing thing. Tom Hootman (18:48) Yep. And I think there's a, I mean, it leads also to the red flags when, when prospects come to us, when it's like, we've had a number of agencies and like they're going agency to agency to agency. And you're like, no, like you're, you're, you're looking for snake oil and maybe the first two that got you to move to them promise snake oil. And then we realized really quickly, like, we're not going down that path. Like you pick us for the right reasons. And it's because we do great work. Aaron Levy (19:09) No. Tom Hootman (19:13) The account's gonna be in solid shape. You'll have a strong foundation and good things will happen, but there's nothing broken. It's just time has happened. Time has elapsed and the Halcyon days of yore are over. Aaron Levy (19:26) I always found that that tended to happen with... I guess I would maybe call them unicorns, like really late stage startups that made it out of startup stage but didn't know how to be a real company. Like I'm thinking of, they were never a client of ours, but I'm thinking of like Allbirds maybe for example, or the mattress companies like Purple that were rise, rise, rise, rise, rise, rise, rise, fall off a cliff. I would always find those that built their business on performance marketing, which don't get me wrong, I believe in performance marketing very much, it's been my career. That's not how you build a company. Tom Hootman (19:54) those, absolutely. Aaron Levy (19:56) Like you got you have to build a brand you have to customer base you have to have a good product. Tom Hootman (20:00) The worst thing that can happen is money machine go brrr, right? And they're like, well, no, we used to just be able to print money. And it was like, well, you're in the big leagues now. You're the hunted. Aaron Levy (20:07) those that was the early days of Meta right like all those people were just building their brand by retargeting the crap out of everybody in Meta trusting their seven day view through which I still think is the most absurd thing ever considering people are on Facebook every day so like if you log down to Facebook they're gonna take credit for it great but those ones that were just kind of growth hacking their way up to getting a ton of funding that was all based on bullshit it was fake numbers and then Tom Hootman (20:31) Well, the second shit hits the fan. Aaron Levy (20:33) Yeah, and then the second the shit hits the fan, when the founder has taken enough money out of their equity, they bounce. Doesn't matter. Company's done. Tom Hootman (20:38) It's ⁓ you start to see that I think in SaaS now where I see constricted budgets more there's like more We're going to really be conscious of what we're spending where a decade ago. It was like we're gonna turn this thing way up and then turn it way off overnight when we realize our burn rates way too high and it's like we're gonna feast for maybe a year and You just don't those feasts are gone Aaron Levy (20:44) Mm-hmm. Tom Hootman (21:02) to this point. Aaron Levy (21:02) Yeah, well, and the other thing that I found too with a lot of SaaS companies is that there's, of course, the wave of AI slop, both in terms of creative and actual companies that don't do anything. There is also a lot more niche companies, like hyper-niche Like I'm doing work with a company that does compliance software for a very, very, specific industry. They're very, very good. But of course, what does an early stage startup want to do? Tom Hootman (21:26) scale, grow. Aaron Levy (21:26) Scale, scale, scale. Guess what you can't do when your target market is seven or 8,000. I mean, it's a very, very good business, but it's not going to go kaboom until you go nuts. Tom Hootman (21:38) It's interesting. We have a prospect right now. It's a phenomenal company that works in ⁓ &A and their target market is actually like nine or 10,000 companies. And I had the first call last week and we're having the true discovery call with the team next week. I'm actually like they're vetting us just as much as we're I'm vetting them in that conversation. And to hear them say like, this is a long play. Aaron Levy (21:48) Mm-hmm. Tom Hootman (22:03) I know the deals in M&A are larger. It's a smaller budget. And you're like, okay, okay, the refrigerator hum, like this is going to be smaller budgets, but it's going to be what we know it's going to be. It's not about scale, scale, scale. Can you get me 50 deals a year? it's, but it's, a, it's a, so that's like the, Hey, you're a green flag. Great. Am I a green flag for you? Great. Let's move forward. There's an element of like, you look for that patience and persistence more so than, and it's like the Aaron Levy (22:16) Which is great. Tom Hootman (22:29) red flag of any CEO founder who has a multi time founder, three time exit, like I do this for a living, crush it. Aaron Levy (22:36) and if they're LinkedIn profile is all X, XYZ companies that they founded, like, cool, I don't care. I don't care about your ex-girlfriend. Like, are you my friend now? I don't care. Tom Hootman (22:43) Okay. because now your target market is four people. Aaron Levy (22:50) It always cracks me up when... promise this is not a pot shot at your old boss, but it always cracks me up when people say that they're ex-Googlers and I'm like, that is not a badge of honor to me. Just because that company is organized so strangely and it's a great company, but the stuff they focus on is so narrow that watching them translate into the real world is just fun. Tom Hootman (23:12) I've had conversations with coworkers about mutual coworkers who've gone to Google. And I've even asked mutual coworkers who've gone to Google and would catch up. And I'm like, I look at their title and they talk about what they do and I just don't understand it. I'm like, I'm in fifth grade. I don't know what you do. Aaron Levy (23:29) I actually interviewed there at one point in my career and it was to run media for, I don't remember if it was Workspace or Cloud or something. And I didn't get the job, so maybe this is just me being salty more than anything. But I remember talking through it and I was like, okay, cool. So like, I can run this and I can help you with the SEO, but like, talk to me about retention. Who's your target market? What are we doing for long-term? What's our CRM plan? And like, no, no, you're the search guy. I'm like, but. Tom Hootman (23:40) I love salty. Aaron Levy (23:56) So we're like a really garbage Ford assembly line. Is that what it is? And it just, it didn't make any sense to me. And not again, I don't want this to convey this is how all Google works, but it was just this conversation. like, wait a minute. This is so backwards from how you and we agencies tell companies to run themselves, but. This is you're organized. People are incentivized based on how many YouTube campaigns start this quarter. Like, that's not long term. Tom Hootman (24:19) Okay, I love it so much. I want to talk about pitches. You've been in the room on pitches. love I love in person pitches. I'm someone who was broken by the remote pitch. Because I early in the days of of of COVID and went remote, like everyone else was like, it's even easier because I can have my talk track in front of me. And then I become a talk track reader. And I just kind of lost my in-the-room vibes. I mean, Brainlabs didn't put me on pitches, right? And it was like, Aaron Levy (24:39) Mm-hmm. Tom Hootman (24:45) What's going on with Hootman? And I was like, I was like in my own head. I was in my own head about this type of interaction, which is maybe part of the reason why I jumped out and did this, because I got to get comfortable being an idiot. And I love, I love meeting with clients in person, getting to know clients, spending time in their office, going to dinner, being stupid, having random conversations. But more than anything, I love being in that conference room when they bring in 16 people and you're going to get a, you know, you're going to get a high and tight fastball from this random person, this random asshole over here. Tell me about, let's start with, I love the worst pitch stories just because like, as you said earlier, like they're like in the mo, like you, I lost sleep over them. Like there were so many of them for years. I thought like in third grade when I embarrassed myself in front of the class and I still think about it in like Mrs. Lazarus's class, right? Like you carry that for years, but then eventually you're like, you can laugh at it. So like, Aaron Levy (25:15) Yep. Tom Hootman (25:37) Tell me about the worst pitch you've ever been on. ⁓ please. Aaron Levy (25:39) Can I give you two? Because they're different versions. Okay. So I have the worst prospect, the worst person that I ever pitched to, and then my biggest miss. I will start with the biggest miss. And I actually think they both had the same lesson that came out of it. So, well, they kicked you off of pitches so you weren't allowed out of your closet. But if you remember back when you used to do pitches, you would get intel would get the leads to... Tom Hootman (26:02) Thanks. Aaron Levy (26:05) wherever this lead came from, they would say like, hey, like this person likes this, they're like this, present like this, make sure that you do it, whatever. We had this prospect that came in and I assume like most senior folks at most agencies would come into the process kind of late. So I would be brought in after like, you know, the fourth or fifth conversation, we would go to the big pitch. And this was a big company, not huge, but pretty big. And the intel that I got was... hey, they really, really love that we're connected to the industry and that you're an influencer. So they really want to hear a lot from you about the industry. I read that just because of how it was framed. I don't know that I conveyed it that well, but the exact words were something along the lines. Like they really love that you're an influencer. they took that to mean they love me that they came there because they wanted Aaron. So anybody who has seen me speak outside of this knows that I am a ham. I am going to be a straight up muppet if you allow me to. And this was kind of like a boring industry. Again, I don't remember exactly what it was. It's like scientific instruments or warehouses or something like that. So I was a straight up cartoon character. And like I did the most me version of me because that's what I thought that they wanted. Apparently it was so bad that our mole on the inside who through the game of telephone, got this information, told us that they were slacking each other asking, what the fuck is the deal with this guy? Who is he? Why is there a clown trying to sell us service software? And we got declined, and this is a decent size deal. It wouldn't have been like a huge, huge one, but it would have been, you know, upper 20%. We got rejected within like 20 minutes after the call ended. Tom Hootman (27:32) Erin. You're like in the rental car on way to the airport and you're like, ⁓ fuck. Aaron Levy (27:47) This was a virtual one too, it was even worse. I was bouncing around here and I had my little Aaron bobblehead out that I got from HeroConf one year. yeah, and I mean, I would never normally pitch like that. I mean, not to cross promote, but I talked to Anu earlier this week about my biggest fuck up in paid search, which was more of a PR fuck up. And I learned how to be more prudent with what I speak about. Tom Hootman (27:55) Yeah, that's really fed that ego. Aaron Levy (28:14) I leaked a Google Alpha and they were not happy about it. And then I learned how to convey my things in a constructive but generally neutral or positive way. Tom Hootman (28:22) Do not bite the hand that feeds, my friend. Aaron Levy (28:24) No, but so I mean in this instance I'm like I took this information what I was told and I went nuts and The information was some degree of wrong combined with me reading it in a completely wrong language. And it was a big pitch that we whiffed on and it was 99 % my fault. And it was like five channels. It was like 15 people. And so we're doing that post-mortem. Like, what happened? I'm like, I did it. It was me. I broke it. So bad information, a bad interpretation of information and leaning too hard into it instead of me knowing what was best and then, you know, reading the room. The same reason that you like going into in-person is because I can read people's reactions and like, Tom Hootman (28:49) I just put it in. Aaron Levy (29:04) Ham it up, ham it down, depending on how they're doing. Tom Hootman (29:06) Yeah, I'm better with two to five people than I am. It's the production. It's the 10 on their side, eight on our side, talk track, like literal dress rehearsals that just, and I'm actually more concerned about how I come across to my coworkers than I was about the client, which is why, like, if I'm in a room, like I do one-on-ones with clients a lot, and I intentionally do that because, Aaron Levy (29:17) Mm-hmm. Tom Hootman (29:31) No one from my team is there. I don't have to worry about what they think. I can just be myself. And I just had this weird fear, and it was a Brainlabs thing. They're so bright, they're so smart, and they're so just on it, and the pace is faster. I think I tried to be like them versus being myself. And someone we both worked with gave me great advice where he pulled me aside and he said, stop, why are you trying to talk like a marketer? Aaron Levy (29:34) Right. Hahaha! Tom Hootman (29:54) He's like, have 250 of them. I'm not like that, you're not like that. Your superpower is client relationships and understanding what moves the needle. So just keep doing that. And that legitimately, I don't wanna say like hyperbole to say it saved my career, but I leveled up from there on and just was more myself. And it kind of gave me the strength to do this because I was like, how does this work? What's a W-2? How do I hire people, right? Aaron Levy (30:18) Well, first of all, I give you a ton of credit for starting this thing up. I remember you saying when you're like, oh, I might get something started. And then like a week later, you're like, I have 40 clients. I can't get enough people. I don't know how many clients you have, but it's been a fun, fun, fun, fun, growth to watch from afar. And also kind of glad it's not me. Tom Hootman (30:29) A couple short of 40, but close. Thank you. There are days that I'm like, I texted a friend who wants to be on the podcast and we're talking about like, hey, let's catch up first. And I was like, it's just super busy. And I said, it's equal parts like, we're doing this. And then 20 minutes I'm like, we're doing this? Like, what are we doing? Like, yeah, it's, I will say this and I said this yesterday to Kayla, I will call bullshit on anyone who says founders burden and it's hard to be a CEO and oh my God, it's just soul crushing. It's so much work. Aaron Levy (30:52) Yep. Tom Hootman (31:05) Those are people who haven't worked fry side on line two at a ChiChi's Mexican restaurant on move-in weekend in a college town. That's hard. Aaron Levy (31:13) I would, I'm, I will hire anybody that has built their career in a restaurant. Anybody who wants to get out of there. One of my absolute, the best hires that we made, Matt, he lives kind of over there. Doesn't work for Tinuti anymore, but he was a, like a 10, 15 year server, restaurant manager, whatever. And that guy could charm any client ever, ever. You just know how to talk to them and know how to get them to open up and know how to get the right questions. Hire servers. For love of all of holy hire people who work for tips. Tom Hootman (31:39) Hire servers. Sense of urgency, bias for action, EQ, awareness of their surroundings. They learn how to run food for other people and help them out. They learn how to pick up tables if someone else is in the weeds. They learn how to ask for someone to pick up a table if they're in the weeds. It's all about communication. Aaron Levy (31:49) Mm-hmm. and they can learn how to fight through a tough situation, maybe a client that's being a little bit of a jerk, but they also know where to call the line and throw someone out of the restaurant. Tom Hootman (32:05) Yep. It is I mean, through and through restaurant people. We had a great head of HR Chris Martin, who now went back to restaurant side and he is actually the guy who called out that couple. He's the president of a regional restaurant chain and him and I caught up over drinks and like him and I were like immediate fast friends because I came from restaurant into food service distribution sales into digital marketing and he came in from restaurant straight into digital marketing. Aaron Levy (32:12) The Coldplay guy? Tom Hootman (32:32) and we both had this immediate understanding of like what we needed in a great candidate for a role. It just makes, it's you look for that person who's been in the weeds. Aaron Levy (32:41) You know I was a back house guy for years and years and almost went to culinary school. Tom Hootman (32:44) I mean, the worst thing they ever did to me, I was a front of house guy and they were like, hey, you're gonna run, you're gonna manage the kitchen for the next two years. And I was like, ⁓ but I'll tell you what, once I learned how to run a kitchen, there's like this superpower of like, anything can go wrong in here right now. And I can help. And when you achieve that at a restaurant and you know everything on the top of your head and you can help a bartender, you can help a server, you can help a buster, you can help a line cook, you can help a kitchen manager, you're like, nothing can break me. Aaron Levy (32:58) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tom Hootman (33:10) I always said there was that rare breed and you very well may be this, like who's done operations, knows client success, who's also in platform. Like the subject matter expertise to be able to turn the dial open and pull the water up over a client's head and parry their moves and talk shop with them at a tactical level and also be able to talk about the business. and run the business, I'm always envious of those people in our industry because it is, you're the perfect weapon. Like you really can step in at any point and hold your own. Aaron Levy (33:41) You know, it's funny, I appreciate the compliment. I never thought I was particularly good at execution. I was in the weeds for a lot of my career, but I got put into management pretty quick. Like my first job out of school. I sort of side-doored my way. So there was a development program at this place that I worked at called GSI where a lot of my college peers were in the little rotational program. I snuck in the side door into a level above them. So they didn't, they didn't really like that, A. But B, I was a manager. I was managing people in my first year of work. I was finding that I was so much better at getting the best out of people and making people feel comfortable to be them best selves than I was at actually doing it myself. Tom Hootman (34:18) ⁓ which is a superpower in our industry because we talked about this before we were recording about how this industry is rife with taking subject matter experts who are really good at a channel, turning them into people managers and not training them. And we're like, it's managing people, how hard can it be? And I do think that there is an underappreciation for client management, client relationships and people management because Aaron Levy (34:31) Mm-hmm. Tom Hootman (34:40) subject matter expertise is admittedly probably 60 % of the job or so you can get through 60 70 % knowing subject matter expertise. But when you've got a team of 10 all of a sudden and four angry clients, you're fucked. Like, it's harder for those people like oh shit like I see deer in headlights. And that's where I'm like, give me that all day versus anything in plan. Aaron Levy (35:02) Yeah, mean, the platform stuff took me around. It's fun. I'm doing some of it now, which I haven't done in years. I would say it's like riding a bike if the bike changed shape and the wheels were square and the handlebars got moved to a different place because what is Google now? But I like getting in there. me, though, was always, you know, we talked about the difficulty of being a high-gross senior individual contributor in industry that there is a ceiling for you as much as you want to think there isn't. you will hit a spot where you can't grow anymore. But if you are a good communicator, if you are good at building a network, if you're good at expanding the network, in fact, like we talked at the beginning here, it was a shtick that I would always use in pitches and still do. But it's also true that when you hired me, you got the industry. You didn't hire me. You hired everybody at one time because these people have all become my friends. And in my mind, the person who can do that in marketing or whatever, mean, everyone to some degree, all agencies are organized by channel to some degree, which is stupid, but also smart. The people who are good at that are the ones who want to know everything that's happening outside of their job. And that's, it's so hard to teach, especially in tough times now, like there's limited jobs out there. Companies are being squeezed. These people don't have enough time to look outside their own field, but The ones that are curious are the ones that wind up being the most. Tom Hootman (36:16) Yeah, I I see I talked to a lot of people I've worked with a lot of people I know who are looking for jobs. And there's a dangerous place to be when you were a subject matter expert and you moved up, but then you decided you didn't want to manage people and you don't want to be a manager. You wanted to do like subject matter expertise, but you can't just do subject matter expertise and just Google anymore. have to have like you have to cast a wider net. And as I like to say, there's a lot of there still are those agencies out there. Aaron Levy (36:18) strong. Tom Hootman (36:40) ground I think is shrinking a bit underneath them and there's fewer and fewer because so many are selling and it becomes a really tough dynamic. And then the second thing I'll say is I have an amazing coach, shout out Rebecca Fleetwood Hessian, who when I first started talking about doing this said, go talk to people not related to Brainlabs Like start talking to people who you've known for years and just tell them what you're thinking about doing. Aaron Levy (36:59) Mm-hmm. Tom Hootman (37:03) And everyone I talked to predominantly was like, I think you should do it. How can I help? Or here's how I can help. And I went back to her and I said, why are these people helping? This is weird. Why are people nice? And she said, didn't say it this way. She's like, you idiot. You've been helping people altruism from a position of psychological and like, like professional safety. And people want to help you out. People want to have your back. And you're right. Like part of what I didn't realize I'd have to lean on immediately is people I've worked with years ago who I've gone to and knocked on their door and said, I need your, can you help? Or do you know someone who can help? And they're like, I got you fam, what do you need man? And they're like immediately helpful with a pitch or a prospect or even jumping in on a client because they are, they're there for me and I appreciate them. They're fantastic. They're amazing people, but also like you're not hiring me. or Mixtape you're hiring the industry and the experience. And that's, think, that sweet spot of like mid-market, smaller enterprise and a team of people with experience where we have like 150 years experience on this tiny, tiny team who have either seen it before or know someone who has. And so many times it's like, hey, I got a question and you're the only one who can answer this. And people just come, they just show up every time. Aaron Levy (38:18) Well, there's a couple things in there. Number one, I found the same reciprocity, I think, is maybe the best word I can use. you know, when I get the sense that you're very much a giver, I mean, you probably don't think of yourself that way. I never realized this about myself, but I'm a giver. And so when you actually ask for help, it's extremely flattering. Tom Hootman (38:27) That's a good word. Many syllables. Aaron Levy (38:41) the number of people who will drop everything to help you out. And that's a compliment to you for sure when everyone, you know, immediately offers to help you and you're like, why? And like, because you have been good to them forever. Tom Hootman (38:51) they know you're not using them, right? Like you're not wearing them out because I still like I won't go back to them. I'll be like, hey, like I already asked you for help. Tell me no. And I say this all the time. Please tell me to fuck off and tell me no, it's perfectly fine. And people are people suck. But there's a lot of really great people. And I think we're both fortunate to have so many great people in our networks. Aaron Levy (39:05) Mm-hmm. Well, and I think the second thing too, this actually doesn't directly go off what you just said, but the comfortability and having hard conversations or direct conversations. Like I haven't fired too many people in my career, but I have fired people and they have said thank you before because it just wasn't a fit for either one. And they knew we've broken up with clients and had clients break up with us that I'm still friends with, still in touch with, and would still hire and refer. It's just about transparency and it's about not pulling the wool over someone's eyes versus like if you get an old friend who's like, hey, Tom, how you doing? You have a good time. Oh, you look great. How's that eye? Amazing. Super. Let me talk to you about my AI startup. Like, no, if you come in with like, hey, man, it's been a while. Like, let's definitely catch up. But this is kind of purpose built. Like you want to check out our product. By the way, do you want an Optmyzr demo? But no, I mean. Tom Hootman (39:44) Woohoo! Just LinkedIn DM me, I'm sure I'll catch it. I have one last question for you. What is a belief you held earlier in your career about success or performance that today you think is bullshit or you know was bullshit? Aaron Levy (40:08) that success is measured in size and growth. it's maybe not the best way to frame it, but number one, I thought you had to be promoted to win, which is the hardest thing to try and convince people who are early in their career, not giving you this role because you're not ready for it because you will fail at it. You don't need that to grow. You have growth to do in the same size pot before you repot you in a bigger place to spread out more. think the other thing that I found, I mean, been a little bit of a theme here that I'm a big network effect person. love being, I love having a ton of people who know who I am. I love even more knowing about all of them. And that gets so hard as the network gets big and so, so, so hard as your team gets big. I had a team of 120 odd people at Tinuti and went to SMX a couple of months ago. One of them who was on my team for two years. who was super, super strong, so people told me, and I promoted him a couple times, I had never met him. And it just worked out that way, because he had a good support system, he had good managers, but I hated that. I hated that I knew nothing about him, and I hated that he was scared of me. And so that concept of rising, rising, rising, growing, growing, growing, getting more and more people under me and more and more clients, Maybe this is a sign of me growing and maybe a little bit of privilege here in the sense that I did have a lot of success in my career, but I would rather have a lot of a little. I would rather be really close to a couple things and a couple people and then have a tangential knowledge about these other folks. But to try and be close to every person and every client of my life when there's that many of them, it's impossible. Tom Hootman (41:31) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. can't do it. You can't do it. And I had a team of about 110. So similar situation. It sucks because the people you don't get to know and you don't meet are the great ones. And I'm not saying anything about the people that you did get to meet or the people you do get to meet in that role. But so often there are people who you're trying to solve problems for. You're trying like they just they just don't sync well with the team they're on or they're in the or there's an issue with the client and it's not them. It's the issue. But you like dive in and help solve the problem or you're trying to find them a spot where they can they can blossom and Aaron Levy (41:51) Mm-hmm. Tom Hootman (42:11) the ones who come in who just have fortunate circumstances or they just like from day one, they're like run at it. They work their two years and you're like, I haven't talked to you. That's awesome. That should be awesome for you. shouldn't be scared of me because that means like you're doing great work. And I always say like my phone, the phone doesn't ring with great news when you're at that, that like level we were at, like there's always like problems. Aaron Levy (42:32) Literally the way I describe my job is I am picking who is mad at me today because I'm not going to be able to talk to everyone and so I am choosing who to blow off. Tom Hootman (42:43) It's tough. I'm doing the more and more of that where you're just like, Hey, like, I'm just gonna have to get back to them early next week. Aaron Levy (42:47) And I mean, it happens, people tend to understand, but it's not the best feeling, especially when you brand yourself as a relationship guy and you have to... Tom Hootman (42:54) Well, you care, I because you're not just branding yourself, you actually are a relationship guy. Aaron Levy (42:58) There's a degree of people pleaser in there for sure. mean, child of divorce, I want everyone to love me. ⁓ Tom Hootman (43:05) Stop stealing my lines. That's one of my favorites. I said, what can I say? I'm a Gen X child of divorce. Aaron Levy (43:09) Yeah, I want everyone to love me and like, but I won't get too close. Tom Hootman (43:13) I have an utter respect for an abject fear of authority or a total disrespect for and abject fear of authority like Aaron Levy (43:20) Yes, yes, and a subtle like you never all the way trust people. But one other thing that you said in your little conversation before that I did want to touch on, I really appreciate you shouting out your coach. I don't have one now. If you had asked me 10 years ago, like, should I get a coach? I'm like, what for? you like trying to become a better golfer? But when I got, which yes, I am, would love a swing coach. It's hit a wall, but. Tom Hootman (43:44) We have a client in the space. send you the link. have lessons. Aaron Levy (43:47) go on. besides that, I mean, when I when I was getting elevated at Tinuti, I was still a little bit of a spicy chalupa. And my boss Pat was like, look, like, we're gonna give you this role. We're not gonna be the thing you wanted. But you are going to meet with an exec coach. And of course, I stomped and whined a little bit. Probably the most impactful person on my life in those two years. Just having someone outside the field to call you on your bullshit, to guide you to help you think your own thoughts. It took a little while for me to get there, but it was one of the greatest experiences that I had professionally. So shout out, Mr. Adam Silberstein with a B, not a V, very confusing. But he was great and it was something that was super, super important to me at a good time. And so I think if people are thinking about it. Tom Hootman (44:29) do it. I have a, yeah, I mean, I have a former coworker at Brainlabs who their development was transformative when they started. And and so I met with this person. I was like, you are insanely amazing. Like you're on such a run. And they were immediately like I have a great coach I found who's helped clear the mechanism and helped me understand how to move forward and how to be clear and intentional. Aaron Levy (44:37) Mm-hmm. Tom Hootman (44:55) and not let it overwhelm me and focus on my locus of control and recognize my gifts. it's coaches, they are business therapists. Aaron Levy (45:04) I would always get called out aggressively whenever I was talking about something and the story eventually led to Adam going, stop it. This is another thing where you think it's not fair, don't you? And I'm like, Shut up. He's like, the world's not fair. What are you going to do about it? How are you going to protect against it? Cause it's going to happen again. And that stopping me in my tracks, getting me to stop wallowing in self pity and like, this person was a jerk. Like, great. How are you going to fix it? Let's go fix it. Tom Hootman (45:28) Yep. I was known as the office curmudgeon. My defense mechanism was the too cool for school thing. I didn't participate in anything and I just I work all the time. If I'm working, you're working and I'm always working. You should always be working. And it was like a very old school mentality that had been baked into me through that outside sales career. And the second I realized like how to let that go and detach from that and be more vulnerable. Everything just became more clear and got easier. And like I will shout out. Pat East and Hanapin, like it was the first company I ever worked for that was like, let's go get you a coach. And very much like a therapist, I've fired a lot of therapists, very much like a therapist, I've fired a few coaches, not fired, but I haven't renewed them because like, it's like, I just want something different. And it just, have to. Aaron Levy (46:08) Right, this has been amazing, but we're done here. Tom Hootman (46:12) Yeah. And you, you then you find that person who just like, I mean, to this day, she sees a LinkedIn post and she's like, Hey, you got a second? I have a question about that. And like, literally I talked about how I was working more than I've ever worked in my life. And my wife was like, I joked that Amy was like, and you're happier than you've ever been. It's annoying. And she texted me and said, do you have time to talk? And I hopped on a call and she's like, Hey, I'm worried about burnout. And it was like, had to talk her through it. Like I'm not like, Aaron Levy (46:28) Yeah Tom Hootman (46:39) is a bit of puffery because it's linkedin like i'm not i'm okay also thank but also you're like geez thank you like just looking out for me Aaron Levy (46:46) It's funny though, I'm just gonna keep this podcast going, we're never gonna hang up. the idea of burnout was very interesting to me because when Tinuiti and I parted ways, I took basically a year, year and a half off. It was great for about six months. And then after that, it was kind of the opposite of burnout where I felt a little empty. It's like, I'm contributing nothing to society. I'm helping nobody aside from being on the board of my golf course and trying to fix the third green. The other side, I think, with that concept of grow, grow, grow, win, win, win, win, win, being in touch, I think, with what I actually wanted out of work and what I actually want out of life and what relationship I want them to have. I don't think I had that early in my career and I don't think I would have had it without this little sabbatical. And now it's funny, I was talking to my sister because I'm going to sound awful. I've worked all day today. And I've worked hard and stuff has gone well. And I feel more fulfilled than I have in a while. Tom Hootman (47:40) Gold star. Hey, I'm gonna put that on the refrigerator. I'm proud of you Aaron Levy (47:45) Hehehehehe Tom Hootman (47:46) That's a refer to that as a callback in the industry. Aaron Levy (47:48) That's that's there you go. Tom Hootman (47:49) I appreciate you. Thank you for taking time. Thank you for being vulnerable. Thank you for talking about the lessons, the sabbatical, the horrible pitches. We've gone over time as I often do because my guests are amazing. So I appreciate you, man. Aaron Levy (47:57) I appreciate you my friend Tom Hootman (48:04) Thanks, Aaron.