Tom Hootman (01:37) So you compete with a lot of agencies. I know you're a LinkedIn junkie like me and you get to see all the shit everyone posts and you go up against agencies. There's agencies you've worked with before. There's all of this like, is really like marketers just have taken over LinkedIn. What is some of the bullshit? Like what do think is total bullshit that like some agencies pull in our industry or that is just total bullshit across our industry that Kayla Kurtz (01:41) hell yeah. Tom Hootman (02:02) frustrates the fuck out of you. Kayla Kurtz (02:03) Let me get my seat actually. this is the kind of question you have to sit down for. There's a lot of bullshit out there, but I think ⁓ the biggest piece of bullshit is if you think you don't have to participate in that medium, you're wrong. Right. So I was incredibly excited when I got to, Forthea and saw that we've got some opportunity to do things a little bit differently with how we approach our social media, go to market, but we're using it. which is important for clients to see, right? You're committed to the bit. You understand that your buyer is in a lot of different places potentially. And so you need to be there with them and having authentic conversations. So, you know, I think the biggest piece of bullshit is acting like you can just like auto publish one post a week and get the job done. you have to be willing to do the grunt work, the everyday habitual activity that doesn't necessarily bear fruit today, but eventually turns into something that starts a conversation. And again, I think Brian and Steph and the entire Blind Zebra crew would tell you like, Tom Hootman (03:16) Shout out, blonde zebra. Kayla Kurtz (03:17) ⁓ man, let's count the number of times. They keep me honest, right? Because I, Brian just put up a something the other day that said it's not magic. So if you come to Blind Zebra or if you're looking for some secret magic bullet, ⁓ phrase magic bullet to selling, that's going to do it for you. Yeah, there's no pixie dust. Tom Hootman (03:31) Yeah. There's no they say this you say that like it's it's all bullshit. Also, no one can think in real time like that. So you can write that shit down and put it on a post-it note on your fucking monitor and like be yourself. Kayla Kurtz (03:49) So when my partner and I started seeing each other, Josh comes from a tremendous sales background himself, some of it in the beer and wine vertical and that industry. I mean, the way it's like, if they do this, do that. If this, then that, you know, he literally had a card that he would like had to take around in his briefcase that was like risk based selling. I mean, that's not. Makes me tired. Yeah, right. I actually have kept, he Tom Hootman (04:17) I had those I had I had the same thing at US Foods. Yeah Kayla Kurtz (04:20) and I make fun of it. I've kept some of the books here as like a relic of let's not do it this way. Tom Hootman (04:27) At US Foods, similar vertical as the beer and wine. There were a lot of sales reps who had named closes. Like the fucking "Good Friday Close" and the "I Don't Know Maybe Close" it was like, I'm not that smart and I don't have a good memory. So like, how do you remember this shit? In the moment when the pitches are coming at you, just be yourself. Kayla Kurtz (04:30) Yeah. yeah. I couldn't Just be yourself because it's the only way you're actually going to get through this without saying dumb shit. or, or at the end of it, not feeling completely like emotionally blown apart because you're going to be told no 70 % of the time, like I don't care how good you are at sales unless you've been faking it with your pipeline. You're not closing over half, which means over half the time. You're being told, no, you have, you have built up a certain kind of skin. And so if, like, if that, if, what you need to get through a pitch is to fake it. boy. My recommendation pick up something other than sales because it's not, it's just, it's not for you. And I, I, I do think that if you go into a pitch or your go to market strategy and you're trying to be something else, you'll get sniffed out. And if you don't get sniffed out, the output won't be what was expected. so again, I'll say like, for anybody who doesn't know, like Tom and I used to work together, kudos to you for coming up with even the, like the mixtape branding. Cause that's like, that's part of your ethos, right? Like let's it's music. It's it's how can you put together a variety of songs that like tell you about a point in time. Tom Hootman (05:56) Yeah, it's me. Yeah. Kayla Kurtz (06:03) ⁓ And I think, I think it's brilliant, right? That's easy for you to be able to walk into a conversation with a brand and represent. I think there's a lot of agencies out there who start trying to be something and then they realize they can't get there. So they start faking it somewhere in between. Tom Hootman (06:20) There's a lot of agency executives and founders. And the vast majority of these are people I don't know. Like I just see them on LinkedIn. So I'm not calling anyone out. know, but there's a lot of them out there where I see the founder talking about account specific or like platform specific strategies. And I'm like, there's no way in hell. Number one, if you're in platform as the founder of this like hundred person agency, Kayla Kurtz (06:28) Yeah. Nobody cares. Yeah, nobody cares. Tom Hootman (06:46) And you know this, your team hates you. Your team hates you because you're standing over their shoulder all day and you're on calls trying to take them over because you in your heart of hearts, you should have stayed at an account manager level. And the posts work, they have to work because they keep doing them. And I think maybe it's what I've come to rationalize a bit is they work at scale, right? Maybe they work for larger agencies where Kayla Kurtz (06:57) Yeah. Tom Hootman (07:10) You have a, you're, casting a wider net. have a larger funnel. have inbound outbound teams. But if, I, I think I might've mentioned this on a past podcast. Like it was like a few weeks in, I asked Alaina, I was like, I feel weird. Just kind of like doing my shtick. Can I talk about what we do? Can I talk about something about Mixtape And she was like, absolutely not. Everyone. No, she was like, no, this is why I love her. Shout out Alaina. Like she's like, Kayla Kurtz (07:29) Yes She's great. Tom Hootman (07:34) Everyone who sees these knows you, and anyone who doesn't know you can click to Mixtape Digital and see what you do. It's really simple. And the second you start talking about feature, benefit, tactic, strategy, they know you're bullshitting. And your magic is not bullshitting. Kayla Kurtz (07:42) Good bye. I would agree with that. I can devil's advocate that just a little bit, Alaina, don't shoot me. Indy girlies unite, okay? I do think that there is a need to have a vision established and set by the leadership level, where I will give kudos to Chris Pappas, my CEO at Forthea. He does not meddle in the day to day. He does not bother with posting on LinkedIn every day, right? Sharing his thoughts, spewing the what he gives a shit about. Like that's not part of his deal. But what we do know is that it's important for folks to be able to see what the boots on the ground do care about. So where Mixtape, I think has done a great job so far is it's very authentic and you can tell that, but we need to see more from your team. Tom Hootman (08:31) Good advice. Kayla Kurtz (08:42) You know what I mean? Like more of your Alaina's get Alaina in here. Tom Hootman (08:46) To my team, I did not pay her to say that, by the way. ⁓ It's really, really easy, and I get this from them. Because I was in that seat. If someone had asked me that, they did ask me that. At Brainlabs, they were like, we want you to be social media. There's a social media team. And I was like, Which is weird that I'm here now, right? Because I wanted to be, but I was too cool for school in my head. Kayla Kurtz (08:49) But that's true, right? nobody actually cares what you think. It's who am I going to be working with? I know. Tom Hootman (09:13) And my team has been like, we don't it's really easy for the teams out there to think, you want me to sell? And it's like, no, no, no, no, I want you to be yourself. And honestly, I want to know your I want to know your opinion. So like, if I want to know what you think of AI SEO, and I want I want to know what you think of P max, because future clients want to know the person leading the team that's going to be working with them what their opinion is. Because if it's a different opinion, maybe we're not a fit. But if it is a similar opinion, Kayla Kurtz (09:19) No, no. Tom Hootman (09:41) It's worth a dialogue. I want them to see, like, not just what I say, but what they say as well. Yeah, that's honestly what Brainlabs taught me, which I was resistant to at first was the team has to participate in the pitch. Kayla Kurtz (09:52) Yes. And so that was exactly, that was my point, right? Is that you used to have people and you'd get an, want that person. This is who I want to work with. And even now, right? Like I, I'll another shout out to, a gal I worked with at my last spot, Megan Ray, also Sean Johnston. These are people who sometimes just get it at a greater degree. They of course can't be assigned to every client account, but they. addressed the fact that they were willing to participate in pitches and they're adaptable enough that they could do it. And so it's the same thing where folks start to get like excited about working very directly with those individuals. And so your job is not to get them excited about the individuals. Your job is to get them excited about the squad behind it. And so I do think, again, if we go back to like the original question is what's bullshit in our industry, Nobody gives a fuck if you are sharing a new case study every three days, because of course you are. Of course you are. What people will care about is that you have more than six people on your team who are willing to go out and say, yeah, we give a shit about this. we want more clients that look like this. This is the kind of work we're doing and that we care about. Tom Hootman (11:00) Hey, hey, hey, kidding. Kayla Kurtz (11:11) and that it really feels more like a, and I you're not supposed to say it, like a family who's addressing a problem and not weird controlling dad who's like, do it this way, right? It's, it comes off wrong. and that's, can, you can spot those agencies. They seem desperate. They look desperate. Tom Hootman (11:32) There's a lot of founders that I've heard through the grapevine, a lot of CEOs who want and insist on being on client calls. And I could not be wired more differently because I am literally window dressing once it gets going. And it's like, yeah, like there's no point in me being here because I'm just reading vibes and it's all recorded via AI. So if it's a weird meeting, I can just watch it. And if you are a good leader, and I'm going to call out people on this, if you're a good leader, Kayla Kurtz (11:46) Hopefully, right? Tom Hootman (12:00) you are having the 30 minute phone call every couple of months at least with a client just to catch up and see how business is, how the team's doing, they're doing, anything else we can do for them. sometimes it's glorified, how are the kids? And sometimes it's uncovering opportunities. Sometimes it's uncovering stuff that you're fucking up. It's the hardest work, it's the easiest work to do and it's the hardest thing to make yourself do. Just again, old outside sales, US foods, shout out US foods. Kayla Kurtz (12:18) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Tom Hootman (12:28) the hardest door to open is the one to your car. And it's because it's true. it's at this level, no one's making me meet with clients. No one made me meet with clients at Brainlabs. And you could go years without having to be accountable for that. But the second something's wrong and they're like, what's the story there? And you don't know. You should be scared. Kayla Kurtz (12:46) 100%. I've always worked in, let's call them boutique sales departments, right? Where like there's not that many of us. So you can't just like send the mass out and hope to disappear behind the volume of work that's going on. I'm, I've always been in a player coach sort of role, right? But part of that, that I think makes you honest is that if there's ever a slump in pipeline or in delivered revenue, it's like, well, what did you do? What did you do to make it happen? And so I think a leadership team that is actually doing their job knows they're doing their job if when bad shit happens, they don't go, what did we forget? Bad shit happens all the time, all the time. You'll hit a moment where pipeline is down, closing is down, and churn is bad. Those things will happen. It's a matter of if any segment of the team goes, did they see us not right? Then that's when you know you've made a mistake. And so when I see solid teams and what's bullshit versus not bullshit, Everybody runs into bad times. It's how you handle them. And if you're really willing to take a look at your losses, sometimes even harder than your successes and learn from that. And no, I, that's in my, my most pivotal moments of my career. It's looking at things and going, okay, if we're being honest, we didn't do this. Tom Hootman (14:01) So go ahead and say. Kayla Kurtz (14:12) So we can make, exactly. So you can make stuff up. You could point fingers at other stuff. You could say, it's the economy. Good Lord. It's always gonna be the economy. It's always the economy. But like, did you wake up? Did you do some shit today? Tom Hootman (14:13) And we yeah, and teams are very often not honest with themselves. And so is the, yeah. And the thing is there's always something more you could do, so do more. Like it's hard, it's hard, it's hard. But there's always, yeah, like it's hard work managing client success. It's impossible. Part of it, you have to be wired to want to deliver the mail every day, because every day you wake up and there's a fresh load of mail to deliver. Kayla Kurtz (14:40) Yeah. There's something else you gotta do. There's something else to do. Tom Hootman (14:50) So do you think that's what separates good agencies from bad? I mean, what else separates the good ones from the bad ones? And you can't just say they're people, right? Because everyone says they're people. Trust me, having to come up with differentiators for Mixtape it's so easy to say, are people? Kayla Kurtz (15:01) No. Yeah, no, okay, I won't say people, but that's also rude. Like, how dare you? I won't say people, but I will say I've now worked for a few agencies and I think leadership is critical. There are founder CEO types that want to be and prefer to be involved in the day-to-day. And I'll say it's not so humbly anymore because I've been doing this long enough that I, those are easier problems to solve. Tom Hootman (15:35) You're right. It's things they can control. And I've learned that in the past few months sitting in this seat. It's really easy when you have an hour free to move toward the thing that you're used to fixing. And the thing that makes you feel good, because there are a lot of days, and I don't believe in founders burden, that's bullshit. I'm just calling up. Kayla Kurtz (15:48) Yep, the easy thing. Yeah. Tom Hootman (15:58) Like being a CEO, it's fucking hard. Yeah, like everyone gets paid before you. You never get paid, you lose money, whatever. I'd still rather do this than work a through shift on the grill at ChiChi's in 1999. This is not hard work, right? Like it's not. Because the hardest thing is to make yourself do the thing that's hard. And it's really easy to, and I catch myself doing it. You catch yourself in that hour going toward the thing that's like the fun thing to work on. Kayla Kurtz (16:16) Yeah. Tom Hootman (16:24) or the thing that you can fix, or you know you can fix that will make you at, you know, whenever you close it, feel like I did something today. It's not, it's fool's gold. It's not actually doing something. You're actually doing something that you probably have someone on the team who you pay to do, and you're stepping on someone's toes, or you're not developing someone saying, hey, I really want you to do this. And that's the second lesson I've learned is I've got to get better at saying, I need you to own this. And here's what I need you to do. because this is this is where you shine. Kayla Kurtz (16:54) Totally, and I think this is where you can kind of put it in the inverse. And it's like, that's how I know I don't want that Because even in my day to day, when I look at my to-do list, it's like, oh God, I don't want to do that. I have no desire to spend any of today's hours on that behemoth of a problem. I would rather send 20 LinkedIn messages. to people who I know are having a certain problem, see if I can get three new deals in the pipeline and toss one of them over to a colleague for them to work on, right? Like then that's where I know I'm not meant for. Maybe much bigger than this VP level position that I'm at where I get to manage things, I get to run a department, but like, I don't know if I wanna, don't know if that's for me. Tom Hootman (17:39) You'll know when you know. You'll know when you know. It comes to you. Kayla Kurtz (17:43) We'll see. Tom Hootman (17:44) we've both worked with lot of people who I think... they say they want to take the next step or do something different or move to a different level as their goal. And I would honestly question that. Like it's more about like, it's like they're, they think that's the clearest path or what they think that's what they want to do. And there's an element of that. I mean, at Brainlabs where people would say, I want to be a managing partner and I want to be a client partner. And they would get a taste of it. If someone's on vacation or we get on a project or they'd be on a pitch and they'd be like, Kayla Kurtz (17:56) Right. Why? Tom Hootman (18:14) holy shit, is this what your day is like every day? I was like, yeah, this is the job. And it's the thing I used to say, like, it's not true, but it's straight hyperbole. The phone never rings with good news in this seat. Like, the bat phone rings all day long, and it's everything from someone quit, someone wants to quit, someone wants to raise, client's unhappy, client's happy, but they want more, and there's just something weird going on. And that's just like a snippet of it. And yeah. Kayla Kurtz (18:16) Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Well, cause that's the external stuff only. You're not talking about the inundation of meetings. Like it's, it's one of my, I will never be anything more than a straightforward department lead. People who report to me know I'll look at them and go, if you don't want to sit in a two hour long meeting, brainstorming, problem solving, I'm telling you leadership's not for you. Right? Cause like that's, that's what it turns into. It's hour and a half long L10 meetings and, and you know, like it's, it's, it's two hour long. let's talk about the influence of AI for our business. And is that a thing? Well, Tom Hootman (19:07) Mm-hmm. of the L10. We'll get there on the next question. I mean, it, sorry to interrupt you, but you're, you're absolutely so fucking right. And it's, ⁓ I've had meetings with my team where we're talking about what, where we want to be, what we want to do, what we, how we want to present ourselves. And we, we, and you can, I'll add to yours, like you could be in a two hour meeting discussing these things. And at the very end, I've been on both sides now where I'm like, I don't like any of it. Like it's like two hours wasted. there's gotta be something more. Let's keep digging. Let's dig again in two weeks, right? And it's... Kayla Kurtz (19:46) I don't like any of it. Or, or you get out of the meeting and you're sitting there staring at your email and you're like, I had three people I could have gotten back to in that timeframe. Right. And so it's, it's, it's the give and take of, again, the thing that fills my cup is watching the ticker move. It's why it's seeing the wins. It's watching the celebrations. It's seeing the commission come in. Right. Like. Tom Hootman (20:00) Yep. Yep. Kayla Kurtz (20:16) So is it, I have to ask myself this question regularly, because I've gotten to a point in my career where it's like, what's next? Do I keep managing at this kind of level or do I want a C-suite strategy growth role? And it's like, I don't know. And I think too many people, if I had to give Kayla 25 advice, any Kayla out there looking for advice, like I'm sure there are many of us now, like don't. Tom Hootman (20:38) There's a lot of them. Kayla Kurtz (20:42) don't think the C-suite is how you go to family gatherings and feel like you've done it. Like, I feel like I've done it now because I get to look at my family and go, I've not come into that cookout. And it's because I'm taking a pitch call that's exciting for me and my family. And you know what I mean? Like that's important to me. But then also when there's a Tom Hootman (20:51) Yeah. Kayla Kurtz (21:09) Friday afternoon leadership huddle, I can be like, nah, man, I got a concert to go to. I can't be here for this. Tom Hootman (21:16) And so much of it too is like you think that I think growing up Kayla at 25 Tom at 25 you think in terms of titles and like It's I have less pull my team went from 110 to 15 and it's it's different but the titles bigger and it's hilarious because you social media feeds this is that like whenever I would want to talk to someone about a gig, if I saw a really great chief growth officer or COO role, I couldn't get anyone to talk to me. Literally, I changed my title, announced Mixtape Digital. In the first two weeks, I had three or four reputable recruiters reach out to me about C-suite level positions with agencies that were over 200 people about roles. And I was like, I'm what? Where were you? Kayla Kurtz (22:04) yeah. Tom Hootman (22:09) four years ago, like where were you through the years? All I did was change my title. And then obviously you did not go look at any of the posts to see that we just launched an agency. Like it's hilarious to me. And it just makes you realize how hollow it is. Yet that stuff still works, right? When we talk about like, probably do it now or have done it before where you're like, like when you step in and send an email, it gets a response because escalation point or an SVP escalation point or a C-suite escalation point. And it's like this. Kayla Kurtz (22:32) and or. Tom Hootman (22:33) the silly little like mental games that people are like, the CEO or the SVP or the VP emailed me, I should respond. Kayla Kurtz (22:39) hate that my title has business development in it. I talk about that all the time. Like I hate it. It was one of the things I thought was really notable about my, my early career in sales at Hanapin as we looked at my title and we were like, what do we want to call this? That doesn't smell like BDR, right? Like, and, and, and we were very, we were very, you know, specific about that, but you know, again, if I can be so bold. Tom Hootman (22:56) Sales. Yeah. Kayla Kurtz (23:05) you know me to generally do. Like I heard the folks that you've got lined up and or who have already come before me as part of the panel who you've interviewed for this and like I'm the first female I think, right? good. And I think a lot of what I am up against often is like, if you're the woman in the room, like what's your role here? And so even for women, especially, I think you start off your career and you look at the top of the totem pole and you go, how do I get up there? And I'll say like full stop. I spent a lot of my life like my you know my mid to late 20s when I should have been should have been my therapist would be so pissed at me right now should have been focused on like a family building up my career and like making sure that I was able to do things on my own, confident in who I was, running out there and doing hard things. And so now you get to a point where even now it's you look at your life and it's, know, my, the children that I get to have in my life are bonus kiddos. And so I don't have to full time be a present part of their lives. And so there's still that pressure of like, then you better go get a C-suite position. And it's like, for what, dude? Like, for what? Like I love being able to go, and that's the end of my day today and go learn a weird dance that Mavis wants me to know off of TikTok or like, you know? Tom Hootman (24:27) For what? For what? Yeah. Well, and I think, yeah, and I think people don't realize that at that level, like you don't get to close it. Like you're just always, you're always on. And, and, and then the people who whine about it and the founder's burden, it's like, boo hoo, I'm always on. It's like, yeah, well you come on, you signed up for it. You chose that. This is you, you pick this, you glamorized it, you went towards it. And now you're like, woe is me, Also you control your own destiny. Kayla Kurtz (24:50) Hmm. You chose that. This is what you wanted. This is what you wanted. Tom Hootman (25:03) You're doing OK. You're not working fry side at ChiChi's on line two on a Friday during Cinco de Mayo weekend. Kayla Kurtz (25:04) Yeah. This is all fine, right? Like, yeah, so like you chose this and some of us aren't choosing those things. So don't pull people down into the depths of your ego when you weren't willing to make peace with that ego to begin with. Like I think that's where it really starts to get, you start to understand who people really are and why they're doing things. And if you move outside of business, you think about how and why people are driven to do certain things. And most people are driven by a couple of common themes, finances, right? Like just financial security, emotional security, or physical security. Like it all comes down to that. And so if you can, if you find a spot for you where you have all three, don't keep shooting. for some weird thing you think you have to have. Like, be confident where you're at and live there. Be fine with that. Tom Hootman (26:03) Totally. It's ⁓ I mentioned this when you were talking about you're the first woman on the podcast and We used to we used to run into this when we tried to get speakers for Hero Conf right? we wanted I think 50/50 at least and it's It's I've seen it proven true twice now where and they say this this is some study or whatever like Kayla Kurtz (26:16) Mm-hmm, at least. Tom Hootman (26:23) A man sees a job posted on LinkedIn and it's like, I could get that job and they're not qualified at all, they just apply. A woman sees the same job and says, I don't meet all 10 of these criteria, I'm not going to apply. ⁓ We saw the same thing speaking at HeroConf. I seen the same thing so far with the podcast in that actually had two women I reached out to to be guests who very, I think were just like, hey, it's no, I'm... Kayla Kurtz (26:29) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tom Hootman (26:48) And it was like, totally get it. Also, you have to create a different set of psychological safety. I was like, hey, Stephanie and Alaina, it's probably weird that I'm just reaching out to people to be on the podcast. So it's weird, number one, because I also don't do it enough, right? So Stephanie reaches out to people now. But secondarily, I was like, Kayla Kurtz (27:02) Real weird. Okay. Tom Hootman (27:07) Let's go. Let's start reaching out to some of the people who didn't reply or said no once we start releasing episodes because I think there's a there's a validation that this is a real thing, which is just indicative of how shitty our culture is and how awful people can be that you just can't trust anyone. And I don't blame people. And it's it's just it's been hard. Admittedly, it's been hard because it was one of the first things we recorded, Jeff and Kent. And Alaina was like, I don't want this to be dude soup. Kayla Kurtz (27:13) There you go. Tom Hootman (27:34) And I was like, I'm with you, I don't either. And we like went out and made the effort and it was like, this is weird. And I was like, shit, this is that same thing playing out where you have to be, you know, in your seat, you have to be a little bit more guarded on who you jump in and talk to and like what, yeah, absolutely. By the way, Kayla Kurtz (27:52) Totally. What are you willing to expose? Like what are you okay with people seeing as a potential fault? Like I even realize it, like I gotta, I gotta spend some time with my diary about the fact that I focused on all, like the things that you sent me question wise, I focus on my wins. I'm, I'm still weird with accepting my losses. I lose all the damn time. It's perfectly fine. It's part of the day. ⁓ but it's, it is a weird, you have to assume a slightly different approach. you know, it goes, it goes back to, it's the expectation of if I show up for a video call. Right. So I've been, texted, people should know this. I texted Tom ahead of this and was like, ⁓ it Tom Hootman (28:37) Is the hoodie okay? Kayla Kurtz (28:39) Feels like I want to wear one of my favorite artists' merch on this because it's a mixtape podcast, but like I'm going to wear a hoodie. Is that okay? but I've very specifically been by Upsahl is like the truth. You should look her up. ⁓ she's angry about a lot of things and yeah. she's brilliant. She's brilliant. So please. but I, I, there's an expectation. I've been approached. Tom Hootman (28:56) It's it's exactly what you need. Jesus Christ. Kayla Kurtz (29:05) in the past about literally my apparel, which is no different than how the average male often shows up for something. But the expectation is that I guess I'm supposed to be in heels. And you know what I mean? It's like it's a very weird, it's a very weird thing. And so it's same same thing goes right for finding your place in an organization. Tom Hootman (29:22) It's weird. It's really super weird. Kayla Kurtz (29:30) I even still find that like I get tossed into. Organize this. Project manage this. Rally and cheerlead this thing. And it's like, well, hold the hell on. There's a lot more to the feminine aesthetic than just like, let's go team. ⁓ And I don't think that that's also not lost on me because if you look at an organization that is reporting poor morale, it's because it's a little too, here's your job, do your job today. And it's like, so what you kind of need is like a motherly type to say, we're all trying to do something extra cool. That means the work's a little harder right now, but once we get through this, it'll be worth it. It's like walking. the sixth graders through their math homework, right? Like it'll be worth it. Just get through this and then never have to multiply a decimal again. I can promise you, right? But it's, it's, is a different approach and I still have to set myself down at least on an annual basis and go like, what do you want with your career? What are you trying to do? Brian Neal asked me, do you want to be a player or do you want to be a coach? Do you want to be Tyrese? Do you want to be Rick Carlisle? Like, do you want to birth good players or do you want to be a good player? And my answer to Brian at the time was I want to be both and he got really pissed at me. But I think that there's like, you have to at least pick one or the other you want to wait to. Tom Hootman (30:56) You, you. Yeah, and you can be one and then transition into another. Rick Carlisle was a player, right? Like at a different stage of your career. It's more about what you want to be now. And I mean, I applaud you. I've always been very impressed is an understatement that you have balanced the tenuous tightrope of and I've seen it in real time and I'm guilty of it with you. It's like wanting people to be. wanting people to be involved and to care and to be enthusiastic, but then coming up and then the old trope of like, well, she's a bitch or she's angry all the time. And you're like, no, they're like, if a guy does that, he is, he's a take charge kind of guy. And it's, he's ambitious. And it's like, you've, you've, you've had to walk that tight rope because you have a very captivating fiery personality. And I don't Kayla Kurtz (31:23) Mm-hmm. He's ambitious. Tom Hootman (31:46) I know that it can be hard sometimes to be like, no, I just want us all to move forward. If this were coming out of a 52 year old bald white guy, you wouldn't have this conversation with me. And I think that that's where it's amazing to me, our industry, the demographics, I'm making these up, but I think it's like 50-50, right? Like it's a woman not dominated, but it's very equal in our industry. And to still have those same tropes within this industry, Kayla Kurtz (32:04) Mm-hmm. Tom Hootman (32:14) fucking disappointing. Kayla Kurtz (32:15) It definitely is, especially when you look at there's, there's so many of us who've got incredible pedigree in this business by this point. Right. So, you know, just calling out, we've already talked about like Alaina and Stephanie, but like Brittany Sager is somebody that I watched transition, you know, industries from being a teacher in the public school system to really like adapting so quickly to the digital marketing. industry and had to, you know, kind of, I don't want to say dampen, because if I ever said that Britney Sager dampened herself at all, she'd be like, get out of here, dude. But like had to like reset herself and reprove herself. And I do think that that is what might be a little bit imbalanced in this industry is do I walk into a room anymore? And I don't know if you remember the pitches. but there would be times when it was my deal, right? Like it was my opportunity. I had been talking to these people for weeks and it bothered me less when they would edit the conversation to you and Jeff because you were VP and president at the time. And so I guess part of that makes sense. But then even when we started taking Mike and Danny, Tom Hootman (33:28) they would immediately gravitate. Kayla Kurtz (33:30) They would, they would gravitate toward the males in the room as if they had more decision-making power in the conversation than I did. and I I will say like, shout out to the, the world we're living in at least right now for all of the things that are shitty about it. there are more people who are out there going, no girl, like you take, you make sure they know who you are, why you're in that room, remind them of the seat you're in and why, right? And so again, that's, I think if you're, if you're hearing this, if you're watching this and you're like, yeah, I'm a, I'm a girl out here in this world too. ⁓ keep being a girl in this world, but also call out that bullshit. Cause I, it took me some years, but I finally started. in front of those people and going, no, the person you're negotiating with is me. so like sidebar story, I live in a home with my partner and both of our names are on this house. I submitted a service request for the people and they sent him an email about it. And I, I got really pissed because I was like, for starters, I submitted the initial service request. So it's weird. Tom Hootman (34:28) And they went to him. Kayla Kurtz (34:38) ⁓ but then also I'm actually home like he goes to an office and does the like I'm here. So if there's somebody you need to fuck with it's me and you went around me and now I'm angry too. So it's all the time. It's it's I'm sure. Tom Hootman (34:43) You're there. see that all the time. see that, Amy and I see that all the time. And it's more of those traditional industries like the HVAC, home services, repairmen, and I say repairmen, which is a sexist term, repair person. They show up and they're like, hey, little lady, is the man of the house here? And you're like, what? No, she knows more about this than I do, what the fuck? Kayla Kurtz (35:02) HVAC home services. Sure. It's crazy, right? It's like, so that's where, again, I think the world is shifting a bit. And I don't necessarily see the value of my person being entirely in the home. I also don't see it entirely being in the C-suite in an agency. It's somewhere in between. And that's also the kind of thing that I think more women need to see in the world. It's what like, I want my little girl person to know is like, go out and get you some, make a mockery of whatever industry you want to, and then take a beat and go on vacations and take care of yourself. And that's the stuff that I don't think as a woman, you either come in and they're like, you better go for the top or sit down. Tom Hootman (36:04) But... Kayla Kurtz (36:05) And I think you can, you can just as much as anybody shoot for somewhere in between and still kick ass at it. Tom Hootman (36:11) It's a healthy bounce back from the Sheryl Sandberg girl boss, like lean in, you need to be in the C-suite. I think that the same message resonates. And it's a problem with us as a society is that everyone wants to be a CEO, even if they don't really want to be a CEO, or everyone wants to be an influencer and be famous. And it's going back to the home services industry. Kayla Kurtz (36:16) lean in. Tom Hootman (36:35) there's a problem there because nobody wants to be a plumber or an HVAC person or remodel kitchens. So they're all booked up forever. It's super expensive and you can't find anyone who is younger. They're all old school and they've been doing this for years and years. They have a great level of experience, but you just don't see apprentices because I think gone is the day of I'm gonna go do this trade. This is my trade and I love it and I'm gonna make great money doing it. Kayla Kurtz (36:58) totally. Tom Hootman (37:00) and I'm going to go home every day at five and have a beer because everyone is like, we're like teased into you should want more. And it's, it's a part of, think, go and you can go down the path of like student debt. It's in like college loans, like student loans are horrible because I think you and I are like the generation that our parents were like, you need to go to school no matter what. And if everyone does that, then there's a glut of people. with education, English business management degrees trying to get the same fake email jobs. Kayla Kurtz (37:34) For sure. like, I, again, I hate to keep talking about like my bonus humans, but we've got a 17 year old, he's in his senior year of high school. The day he came home and was like, I don't think I want to go to college. There was like a what? Like, hold on. But what lights him up is not class. He's a gear head. He likes working on engines and the things with his hands. ⁓ I don't care how much AI there is in the world. There are still machines that are running the world. So my only advice at this juncture to him is at least consider taking a couple of classes, right? Where you can learn about the machines that run not like that, that the computers are, you know, like at least give yourself the edge. But I get it. He's not wrong, right? It doesn't, not everybody needs to follow the same path. I made the joke earlier that I had an algorithm that had been given to me of what my life needed to be. And it ran me toward, okay, you're in college. What are you going to do? Don't know. My grandma was a teacher. I guess I'll do that. And I picked like the most random thing. You're a baby. Like how are you ever supposed to know? Tom Hootman (38:43) Mm-hmm. Because you're like 17 years old. are you? Yeah. Kayla Kurtz (38:52) ⁓ and, Tom Hootman (38:53) And our parents didn't know, right? I you and I come from similar backgrounds. We're like, our parents were like, do better than I did. I want you to be more successful than us. And like, I want you to like, and that's great. But also like, my mom didn't know what a college prep course was. What did I say? Kayla Kurtz (39:05) What does that look like? Yeah. Like how do we get, how do we get there? and yeah, so like, then you end up in student debt and you don't know why you don't even know how you got there or like what the purpose was. I didn't even use my degree. And, and so to the point where I don't want to, ⁓ you know, I don't, I don't want to send any like misnomers out into the atmosphere right now, but Tom Hootman (39:14) Yeah. You did, but that's another conversation. Kayla Kurtz (39:30) There are trades and things that you can do with your professional career that don't necessarily require you to go out and do some random four year degree. There are limited things I could pull from my four years at Indiana University, which shout out Hoosiers. Listen, I loved it. We had a great time. but there's very, there's very few things that I actually bring into my day to day in the thing that I love doing every day. And so like, I, I wish, I wish there were opportunities for kids, young adults to just be more exploratory in their education even. And same thing to young professionals. Don't call yourself a salesperson. Don't call yourself a marketer. Get a job somewhere and spend a couple of months with the mail room, spend a couple of months in engineering. Learn more outside of your little box. Tom Hootman (40:24) I mean, do you have ample time and it flies? So if you think that you're taking a step back or two steps back to learn and you're not making the money or you're not doing what you want, that's okay. You see a lot in the market right now because a lot of people unfortunately are losing their jobs and they're being pushed out in the market in our industry. And people coming out of school are like, I can't even get a sniff of an interview. And it's like, that's okay. Find something, make a little bit of money. I'm not trying to be the old person saying, I'm not saying pay your dues. Kayla Kurtz (40:47) and something. No. No. Tom Hootman (40:52) That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying any activity within an umbrella of the area you think you might want to work in helps you learn, number one, whether or not you really want to do that, which is a huge difference. And I think I'll mention this. you, I'm, I'm proud of your bonus person. That's weird. Who's, who's saying that number one, had the comfort level to say that to you and Josh, but also I did the same thing. Like I, I didn't get my degree until 2013, 2014. Kayla Kurtz (41:03) For sure. Tom Hootman (41:18) And I realized I'm at this director level at an agency who took a chance on me without a degree. And I was like, I really should get it at some point. Number one, to prove it to myself that I can, but number two, you know, should I go get another job somewhere? I know I'm going to be kicked out by automation. And like the environment now is so much easier to go out and get a degree and not have to go through like what you went through on campus, off campus, like walk into class. You don't have to do any of that shit. you could still get that degree from an accredited university. And, and I've had people ask me, I talked to a lot of people in the past few months who were graduating from IU, shout out Hoosiers, who were like, should I put my GPA? Should I put like ask me for resume advice? And I'm like, hey, like, one of the things I always tell people is like, just put grad, no, I've 15 years in this business. I never once looked at a GPA. I went, I looked down to see where you went to school so I can find some similar thread. Kayla Kurtz (41:55) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Tom Hootman (42:13) That's it. And if you went to Michigan, I can bring up, I'm a Notre Dame fan. if, mean, like if you went to Purdue, we can bring up the IU Purdue thing. Like I don't look at that as like, do they have a degree? Ooh, sheesh. Kayla Kurtz (42:24) No, quite literally, think even when I look at some of the folks that I've run across in my career who have had some of the best, will say professional, like bedside manner, they didn't come through a traditional means. My own mom, like she grew up in an atypical atmosphere. and had a lot of jobs that were not what one might put down on their vision board of, my mommy does this thing. But my mother taught me adaptability and how to understand a person you were speaking to and not chameleon to them, but empathize. Just get to know that human being. And you don't learn that in college. You don't learn that in college. You don't get that out of a book. It's either something that's in you, or you collect from the people around you, wherever those people come from. Tom Hootman (43:08) You definitely don't I don't yeah, you don't and I think I mean, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's the same reason people say restaurant people sense of urgency, awareness, EQ. I'm all about that. I think there's an element of what you don't learn in school is doing like it's like doing what you say you're going to do, hitting a deadline. A lot of that is like coded into you. And I think that a lot of it you get through experience. And we've you and I worked a lot of people who are fresh out of school and have had to like, they kind of like life hits them in the face three months in. Kayla Kurtz (43:23) hey, I stand by that. I stand by that. Tom Hootman (43:48) And there were a lot of people we worked with at Hanapin who we thought weren't going to make it, who had sat down and had that conversation with them, who then turned into superstars who are still our friends to this day, who are just amazing. And it's like they're just wired to get it immediately. And you have one conversation with someone and you're like, ⁓ shit, okay, I get how it works. Kayla Kurtz (44:08) And again, I'll say, I don't even know how the hell we ended up on this topic, but the way that your life tells you you're supposed to go, just find something. Find anything, experience that and pick out the bits that you like, leave the rest and then move on to the next thing. Like I loved my time with Hanapin and Brainlabs, but I wish I hadn't stayed as long. Cause I think I did myself a disservice of going out and experiencing some of the things I've now gathered in the last five years so rapidly, you know? Tom Hootman (44:31) Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's regret, right? And I wanted to jump for all the right reasons in that I felt like I loved Brainlabs and I felt like I was at the end of my story there and it was time for me to be able to tell a more interesting story, pass or fail, whatever comes of this. And then within a few days of being out here, I was like, ⁓ man, I could have done this so much longer, right? Kayla Kurtz (44:51) Yeah. Tom Hootman (45:02) It ignites a different, and it's nothing against where you're at. You just kind of realize that you get comfortable and you fear change and you want to stay within your comfort zone. And the second you get out of it, you're like, oh, this isn't too bad. Then someone hits you in the face with a sledgehammer, you lose a couple of deals and you're like, oh, yay, this does suck sometimes, but that's different. Kayla Kurtz (45:12) Yep. Yep. This is the worst. No, and again, because I'm first female panelist on the podcast, I think that's good life. That's good life advice. I think there's a lot of us out there who get into a path and we're like, this is it, committed. And then all the red flags are popping up and you just refuse to want to see them. Like whether it's your friends, if it's a loved one, like If it's your job, man, if the red flags are popping off, like start collecting them. I will say again, and not to talk about Taylor too much, but one of the things that I think is so great about Taylor Swift and what she puts out in the world right now is that she's, she started being typecast as a certain kind of girl who only made a certain kind of music for a certain kind of person. ⁓ she said, I've let you do this for too long, right? Like you, you've made me out to be this certain person. Like you even said something earlier about like, I've, I've made myself out to be a certain character in most of the teams that I've been a part of. And I'm okay with that character as a female. You often don't get that option. And, know, somebody who had her music taken from her and she had to go out and earn more to get back what she had already done. kind of nonsense. And so if you think about male, female, starting your career late in your career, what do you want your career to look like when you get to stare back at it? And if you're not on that path, just change it. If it's a red flag that sends you down a different path, change it. And it's easy to think you can't. I didn't think I could work anywhere other than Hanapin I really thought that, right? Like I've learned a set of skills. This is where I am. I have learned that that set of skills is useful to so many other teams and that's where people get stuck. There's no need to be stuck. Tom Hootman (47:15) Yeah, or if you want to learn, absolutely. And if you want to learn new skills, the best way to learn new skills is to move to a new team and to challenge yourself to be challenged. I think the Taylor Swift reference we've bookended and it's a great place to wrap things. Kayla, I cannot thank you enough. You've spent so much time. This is a two parter. I'm going to make it be a two parter. It's been wonderful catching up. I absolutely cannot thank you enough. Your story is impeccable. I love the journey. I love, I just. Kayla Kurtz (47:20) Go find a new team. Dude. Tom Hootman (47:41) love catching up with old bullshit stories. Thank you for being on the podcast. Thank you for being the first woman recorded for the podcast. Kayla Kurtz (47:48) thanks for bringing me into it. If there's anything I can do to help you guys, definitely let me know. But also sincerely, if you're watching this and you found any of this helpful, we are two very foolish human beings. The bar is pretty low. Tom Hootman (48:01) See you. Let's just learn from our mistakes. Kayla Kurtz (48:03) ⁓ yeah subscribe ⁓ below yeah have me back anytime. Tom Hootman (48:08) Thanks, Kayla, take care. Kayla Kurtz (48:09) Thanks.