Welcome back.

Today we're diving into a massively overlooked growth lever and that is landing pages.

I'm joined by Jeff park, founder of Daydreamers Design Studio, an agency helping seven to nine figure ecom brands stop wasting ad spend by sending traffic to poor PDPs and instead turn traffic into conversions through custom built landing pages.

Jeff, pumped to have you here man.

How are you doing?

What's up bro?

I appreciate you having me.

Super grateful.

Spend time, hopefully teach something, something new, something hopefully your audience can receive and learn something and apply to their brand.

So grateful to be here, babe.

Yeah, looking forward to it.

Let's start with your story.

So basically how did you get into E commerce and also creative design?

Yeah man, there's probably like a typical story for a lot of people in Ecom.

I started doing the drop shipping stuff.

Clearly going on YouTube, searching of how to make money online, found dropshipping did that.

This was back in like 2019, 2020.

And that was like my first experience when it comes to E comm, like kind of just getting immersed in the world.

I was a shitty dropshipper.

But the one thing that I was good at, like the literally the one thing was actually building really solid pages.

Even back then landing pages funnels wasn't really a thing, but me just kind of just naturally doing it.

It wasn't something that I like saw people like learn from someone specifically, but it was kind of something that seemed the most natural way to communicate and sell a product online.

So kind of using like, I think back then I used like pagefly, the Shopify page, builder, I use Rebel now.

But using that building pages, I would average like a freaking like 5% conversion rate on like a shitty product.

Like my average order value was like $70, $80 back then, which was like dam for someone who didn't know anything about it.

And then of course everything in the back end was, was a shit show, like customer service operations.

But, but the landing pages and funnels was like the one thing.

And then so eventually pivoted, started as an agency and now just helping as many people as I can with their landing pages, their funnels, their websites just to squeeze out more of their Aspen, and just to help them make more money with their brand.

Nice.

And why didn't you stick to drop shipping?

Yeah, the profit margins were, I was feeling everywhere else, dude, like, like as far as, like when I say everything was a shit show in the back end, like as far as like my My, my, my, my static ads were good.

My, my landing like everything on the front end was solid.

Back end.

I wasn't even running emails like email marketing.

I wasn't doing any of that.

I would rack up a solid list.

So so the short answer, I fucking failed, dude.

I failed hard.

You know, I failed with that.

You know, as far as customer service emails, I wouldn't even answer them until I hired a VA to be like yo, there was.

There'll be hundreds of emails.

I'd be like yo, I need you to go through all those because I don't want to, don't want to deal with that, you know.

But yeah, I'm glad I made the.

Made the shift.

Just because of like just simply just getting messages from people like from, from clients and brands of just like the work that we do is something that I'm super proud doing.

And just hopefully just getting better each time and just being able to be of more of service to people and help them kind of just like execute upon their visions, helping them manifest the brands that they want to kind of share with the world.

So it's been super cool and I'm glad that I made that shift.

Nice.

Yeah.

And what made you focus specifically on landing pages?

I mean you mentioned like your ads also looked good.

Like why didn't you go in that.

In that area?

I just think.

I just honestly I don't have an answer to that.

It was something I just, just naturally just gravitated towards something that I like doing.

So I think that was just a reason enough.

I actually didn't.

After doing drop shipping I actually didn't go straight into this agency.

Like I actually did other things as far as like building websites for like personal brands.

So even after drop shipping I would do like web flow builds stuff.

Like that.

Which is why replo.

If you guys aren't familiar with that, it's just another Shopify page builder app.

But in my opinion the best one and it is like a webflow version of or for Shopify or like E Commerce.

So to answer your question, just felt like that was like my path and something that I like doing.

I felt like I was good at it.

So it was more.

So just simply just like let me help other people do that with things I'm good at.

Then here we are now.

Yeah.

And what would you say is broken about how most brands handle their landing pages or I think like a lot of brands don't even have any like specific landing pages at all.

They just send all the traffic to the product page or homepage.

Yeah man.

There's a few that come to mind.

Well the first one that you brought up is sending all their traffic to their product pages and even homepages, which is insane.

So the first thing I would say is not to, especially for brands are just starting out but even in like the six, seven figure mark is like don't act like you're an eight, nine figure brand who those brands can get away with because they built so much credibility with the ads that they're running, their, the organic content, all that.

So of course have solid product pages, homepages collection pages.

Like that's a given having that solid foundation.

But we want to kind of curate your customer journey in a way that has continuity between where they're coming from and the page that they land on.

So like a common term that you hear is like post, click, experience.

So like one simple thing is just having more congruency between the ad that you're showing to your shoppers, to your potential customers and then the page that they're landing on.

So something that as simple is if you're saying one thing in your ad.

So even to preface, a common thing that brands do really well is testing new ads.

Like testing angles, testing different creatives.

Like that's great but the one thing that's missing is testing or developing new pages to go alongside those ads.

So having some more continuity and like a nice bridge.

So if you're talking, let's say you're like you're selling skincare and your, your ads are saying something about like no more acne, right?

Like your page should, should communicate something alongside that rather than just having a good generic PDP that might not communicate that, right?

Because a brand can have one product but different angles and different creatives and different headlines.

So you want to curate that post, click, experience that page that they, that they are landing on to, to be relevant to that.

Because something that one customer, one shopper might be interested in, another one might not.

So I say all that to say just try not to or to have more congruency between the page.

And that just includes just with landing page like that gives you the ability to accomplish that and makes your life easier.

Especially with the resources that we have available.

Like all these different apps like Replo for example, even AI chatgpt, throwing in your best performing creatives and then having that spin up ideas, different angles and stuff like that and then just Simply just curating, creating pages that are congruent to that.

So if there's one thing I'll say, is simply just to at least be more open to testing new pages.

That's one thing that I think brands are a little afraid of, just because it's something new.

And I'm not going to lie and say it's going to work off the first swing, but it gives you, higher chance to connect with the audience better and deeply.

And that I would say is like something so simple that every brand could be doing and should be doing.

Yeah.

And why would you say sending traffic to, or paid traffic, especially to a product page or a homepage, often a waste of money?

Is it just like this messaging inconsistency?

Yeah.

The simple answer is the incongruency between the overall messaging.

And one caveat is like not trying to say that you won't be successful sending traffic to your product page.

But the one thing I will say to that is maybe the reason why it is working for brands is because those, shoppers that turn into customers, for the ones that go to the straight to your product page are already kind of bought in and kind of already need that.

And they've been nurtured and they've already know your brand, they know what product you're selling.

They, they understand the problem that they have.

So they're looking for that immediate solution.

So one caveat is I'm not saying that product pages don't work.

They absolutely, of course they fucking work.

Right?

Like as far as, like having, like that, that, like that almost just like that bottom of funnel sales page, that would always consistently work.

Like, not saying that, but as far as the brands that we see that succeed, the ones that we work with and just ones that we study from, they kind of segment different pages and different experiences to the types of customers or types of audiences that they're reaching out to.

So of course PDP's work for the warmer audiences, but for the ones that are colder, the ones that aren't aware of your brand, of your products, and even potentially the problem that they have or even the solution that you're offering.

So it's your job to educate them and to kind of build that, that context to teach them why their problem is, an actual problem and they need to actually solve it.

And then kind of segueing and having that frame to present your product and being like, here's XYZ of how your problem is relevant and important and what can happen if you don't solve that problem and then here's our solution to solving that problem.

So I say all that to say kind of segmenting pages based on like where your shoppers, like where your audience is at, like internally, mentally, as far as like just their overall education level.

As far as do they even understand the problem that they have?

Do they under.

Do they know your brand?

Because like when you are trying to scale, the reason why it's hard to scale is because they, the bigger the audience, the less amount of people know who you are.

So it's your job to simply just educate them on who you are and why your brand is the best one for their particular solution.

Yeah.

And I hope that makes sense.

Yeah, it does definitely.

And I'm not sure whether you can answer that at all.

But on average with the brands that you're working with, what kind of differences do you see from like when you start working with them if they're only sending traffic to their homepage and their product pages and then you come in, set up a bunch of landing pages, test a bunch of stuff like what kind of conversion rate differences are we talking about?

Yeah, that I would say is a really hard question to answer just because especially in DTC and E commerce, like there's so many like variables, so many factors even for two brands in the same industry.

Like even those two, you can't look at them the same way.

So as far as like what kind of conversion rate like increase, like as crazy as it seems, like maybe some brands don't even need a landing page.

Like maybe and this kind of goes against everything that I'm saying but just, just kind of offer like a caveat and just to offer that like for some brands by not see a crazy increase in conversion rates.

But for example there are brands that we worked with that literally doubled their sales by having a curated post click experience.

Like there's for example a brand that we worked with, supplement brand who were stuck at like I think like 150k a month and then after working with us they got up to like 400, like 450 in that month and, and was able to spend more on ads.

Like that is the name of this game.

I'm, I'm sure you know, helping people or brands with their ads is the brands that could spend the most profit on ads usually are the ones that succeed or at least beat out the ones that can't.

So so simply just being able to spend more and all that.

So to Answer your question.

I don't have, or like, rather I don't want to give like specific numbers because I don't want to like, like say, oh, like for sure if you test one page.

Because the main thing is you gotta actually put in the reps and test different pages.

Because I'm not gonna sit here and like, for the one, those of you who are listening to this, like, I'm not gonna say your first page, even your third, fourth, fifth page are gonna beat out your control.

But I, at least I can guarantee that the more that you, build, test and iterate, I can almost guarantee that it will absolutely beat out your control page that you have right now.

So it's not about what percentage increase you will, experience.

It's more so how diligent you can be with actually building and testing new pages and testing different page types, layouts, different angles, different offers, overall messaging.

And then from there I can almost guarantee that you will see an increase in conversion rate or your average order value for sure.

And is there a way for a brand to know that their website or the landing page is the constraint of the business and that's what they should focus on, to grow and to scale, or is it just about testing?

That's a good question.

My answer to that honestly is I feel like all brands can always improve and get better.

Like the same way that even the best brands are the ones that are testing the most creatives on the, on the ad level.

Like, that is the mentality that you should have when it comes to your, your pages.

Also, of course test more creatives than pages because just how ad account like is set up based on your volume of that.

But I would say if you aren't, if your ad account isn't spending as much as you want it to, I would look to your, to your pages just for the fact that most brands aren't even looking at their page and thinking that, or even just assuming that their page is fine.

And a lot of brands are just going straight to their ads like, oh, I have to fix our ads and do this and all that.

And while that may be true, and that probably is for sure true, I just think something that's just so neglected are the actual pages, which in my opinion, like, is so crazy that people don't emphasize that enough just because that's where your shoppers are buying from.

Like, it's different from TikTok shop, for example, where they're buying right from the ad and they click and then they buy straight on the platform, when it comes to Meta, for example, like you need to direct them to a certain page.

Like so with that page, like that page is your, your closer almost.

Right?

Like the ad itself is the opener, but the, but that page is your closer.

So you need to, to, to, to kind of understand that and spend more time with that.

Yeah.

And I mean we see that a lot on the, on the ad side that there are just some brands where you can have the best ads in the world and you try, but it just doesn't work because they have some issue on the website or the land.

They don't have a proper landing page and we can send them like the best traffic to their site and just no one ends up buying or they buy just at very, very low average order values which makes it for us impossible, harder to be pro.

Do your job.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah.

And like from your experience, where do most brands go wrong when they, when they test new landing pages or when they try to create them themselves or with the web developer?

Like is it copy?

Is it layout, structure, design?

Yeah.

I would say just to keep this simple and tactical, I would say three things, to focus on.

Because like there's various things that people do wrong and again there's so many nuances.

So yes, it could be copy, it could be layout, it could be page type, all that, I would say to kind of flip.

That is what I've seen working really well right now.

The three simple things have been working well.

The first one is going to be like that ad to page congruency.

That's easy.

As far as like your top performing ad should get its own matching landing page.

As far as just at least testing that.

So it's not just one product page for all audiences, it's one page per angle or type of ad or like angle or message that you're running hopefully, I mean depending on the volume that you have.

Second one is going to be like offer first pages.

So leading with a really solid irresistible offer that you have and in this case like that will help your average order value.

So doing anything with like anchoring price, like, like as far as if you're trying to push subscriptions kind of offer some sort of free gift or some sort of like discount for the subscription offer to kind of even position that to be the no brainer thing, a lot of brands just offer like a 10, 15% discount which is great but offering a little more.

So like any free gifts, specific bundles, urgency positioning should Almost always do a lot of the heavy lifting when it comes to positioning specific offers.

And then the third would be like short form, pre sale type pages for your colder, broader traffic.

So like quick, punchy, engaging focus pages usually outperform like the longer like the sales, pages that kind of go on and on.

So just having like a short punchy page that is super engaging, it's scannable, it's scrollable, they don't have to do too much work when actually going through the page to understand what it is you're communicating and selling.

So just focus on like specific problems, your product, social proof, call to action.

Like it could be as simple as that.

It could be freaking four or five sections.

Like it doesn't have to be like a long page.

So like I would say that those three, focus on that, the post click experience as far as building that bridge from your ad.

Second focus on your offer.

And then third is just to go a little shorter than longer.

Of course.

And again caveat because there's gonna be a lot of caveats.

Again there's so many nuances.

But what I've seen for most brands, especially when you're new to landing pages, you don't need to go like a long, like a long ass page.

Just go for shorter, just hyper specific on the problem you're solving.

Your solution providing some sort of proof, credibility, trust and they go right into your offer.

Your call to action, section at the end and then go from there.

Nice.

And what would you say is more, more important?

Is it like the design, the aesthetics or is it the content that is on the page?

Yeah, no, I actually learned this the hard way.

Someone who naturally likes design and overall aesthetics.

Design almost never really matters.

It's, it's all about the contents, it's all about what you're presenting on the page.

So quick thing is make it scannable.

You don't want to bombard them with so much information.

Make it simple to understand, to skim through.

And simply just focus on what is being presented.

So again a simple thing that any brand can implement to the pages, specific words that you're saying in the ads, especially your best performing ads, you want to use similar word like words or phrases that your customers are saying.

Things that your audience is resonating from your ads because that's an indicator of they're connecting with what you're saying there.

So it makes the most sense to apply that logic to your actual page.

And as far as the idea of building trust, credibility being, being intentional with what reviews you're showcasing, what types of images you're, you're providing.

If you want to provide certain visuals like a video or a gif, like showcasing how to use the product.

Because some products require more education on how it works and the overall process.

So being mindful of what you're actually showcasing visually.

So to answer your question, it's 100 on content so it's spending a little more time and just, just emphasizing and being intentional with the types of information, words, visuals that you're using and kind of just like questioning okay, like is this aligned with what your audience is thinking and is this something that they're looking for?

The best pages I've seen are answering the questions and thoughts that your shoppers already have in their head and it's presenting it to them because they're looking for that information.

So you want to give them that.

And like that's where it becomes fun where you can get creative with all that and kind of play around with the specific content.

Yeah, and I see a lot of similarities to the paid ads where especially smaller brands, but a lot of E commerce brands in general, they over prioritize the aesthetics, the design that everything looks on brand.

But in reality it's the content that is way more important and the messaging as you mentioned, the words that you're using and that you're just talking to the customers in their language and answering their questions, their objections and that is like way converts way better than just having like a perfectly designed on brand ad or landing page.

Yeah, for sure.

And I feel like we're so lucky to actually have numbers to back up the shit that we're thinking and putting out there.

Like back in the day like when there'll be like newspaper ads, like no one would know if it's working well.

But the fact that we have like ad accounts or even like numbers to back up things to actually like instead of us being emotional and going based on feeling intuition like put something out there and let the numbers and the data like actually show, show us like what is working.

So for example, if you have an ad that's worked well, it's fucking working well for a reason.

So double down on that and, and, and lean into that specific angle or that specific creative.

And it's the same way for the actual pages it's simply just going more of like being more like data driven, less emotional.

Like that's something I have to learn also because I'm someone who's super like feeling based intuition, emotional.

But it's simply just like the fact that we're so lucky to have numbers attached to all things that we do.

So we have context and it allows us to make better guesses, or just establish better moves, based on everything that's working.

So yeah, everything you're saying is on point.

Yeah, yeah.

And like what kind of trends are you currently seeing when it comes to landing pages?

I think you already touched on like shorter, punchier landing pages.

Is there anything else when it comes to pages?

Leaning more into social proof.

If you have great customer reviews, great images from your, from your customers, like you should lean into those more.

In my opinion, your customers are better salesmen than you are, than you ever could be.

So leaning into as much of your customers as possible, which is why it's really important to connect with them deeply and understand what problems you're solving as far as what made a shopper into a customer.

Because even if you go through your customer reviews, they'll give you all the answers.

Hey, I had this XYZ problem, but this brand helped me do xyz and that's exactly what people are buying into.

So as far as like I guess that's not even like a trend, but it's something that I know for sure works consistently well.

It's just establishing more trust and credibility.

There's so many brands out there now like with people starting brands because it's so easy to start brands now.

It's about which brand can, as cliche as it sounds like, which brand can stand out and establish themselves as the top brand and top product to try and to use.

And that comes with social proof, building trust, credibility from endorsement, like affiliates, co signers, stuff like that.

But it's all about just building trust and rapport and it's the brand that connect the best and the ones that consumers trust the most.

So that, and then like I said earlier about the offer, so test different offers.

I really like offering more value.

So like free gifts is such an easy one.

Even like if you, if you're unique, if your unique metrics don't allow for it, like even offering things that have no fulfillment costs, like free ebooks, free training guides, of course depending on what product you're selling, even for supplements, like you're selling like a testosterone booster, like having like a workout plan, workout guide, like videos, just something that just adds the overall perceived value of what you're offering.

Because people don't have problems spending money.

Like that's one thing I noticed is like people want to spend money.

Like the world that we live in, people want to spend money but you have to give them a reason and give them the feeling that what I'm paying for or what I'm receiving is worth more and it's val is more valuable than what I'm paying for.

And that comes with just how you frame and how you position your offer.

So yeah, so offer more social proof, and just focusing on like the specific content say like those are the big two or three things to really focus on when it comes to building solid profitable landing pages and funnels.

And I'm curious, do you also notice how more and more e commerce brands are starting to like at the same time build kind of like a personal brand or also implement like more and more founders story based content?

Because that's what we are seeing a lot on the ad side that the best performing or fastest growing e commerce brands, they always have some kind of founder personal brand implemented integrated in there.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And I think even to your point, that's an amazing point that you bring up that comes back to building trust because people buy from people and people want are more accepting and willing to buy from people that they resonate with that they feel some connection with.

Which is why it makes sense why even like founder ads or like VSLs work really well.

Because usually that founder, not all the time, but a lot of times founders create brands based on the problem that they had and solved it with the brand that they created.

So just the fact that other people probably have a similar problem to you that builds that connection.

And then the fact that you've created a brand coupled with like even saying like hey like I had this problem before I created this product, it helped me and it helped other people as well.

So it just comes down to just building that trust, credibility and just that rapport.

So yeah, that's a great point.

Yeah.

I mean also authenticity nowadays like with AI and like just so many people starting brands like no one really knows who to trust or what kind of brand to trust.

But if there is a real person and like I think it will be even more difficult with all the AI avatars because at some point you'll not know whether it's a real person or not.

But right now like if you see that there's a face behind the brand, a real person, you automatically trust the brand way more.

Exactly, exactly.

I think that's something that in my opinion brands should lean into more, especially founders, that care about their the brands but like the products and believe in it.

You should in my opinion, put your face to your brand and, and try to connect more with it.

So like that includes like your organic content, includes running ads with your face on it and even potentially like having a sanction on your page and your website saying like hey, like this is about the brand, like this is the story behind it.

Right?

Because like people buy into stories like they, they are emotionally invested into that and then from there it's so much easier to sell like your products based on that.

So yeah, like it comes back to trust, credibility, authenticity is just providing that human touch.

And that's the whole point.

Or at least what we like to do when it comes to pages.

It's kind of replicating like a face to face interaction on the page.

And that comes with saying the different or the specific phrases, the words, the things that they're thinking and reflecting that onto the pa.

And again, I know I've been saying this a lot, but providing that social proof, like showcasing your, your customer images, your reviews, videos, do that well because it provides that visual context for that.

Yeah, that's great.

And now how does your approach or your process differ when like a brand, a brand comes to you and let's say they're just starting out and just doing like 50 to 100k per month in revenue compared to an already like established brand that is already at eight figures in revenue.

Like what are the differences?

I think I mentioned this before but and this is such like a cliche, like a simple answer and it's just doing more of what's working and also being, being open to testing new things.

There's something that even I'm facing with my own company.

It's like, it's if something is working, like a lot of times as like humans, I don't know why we are the way we are.

Like in this it's something is working and then we automatically decide, okay, I can't do that anymore, let me move on to the next thing.

It's like no, like try to milk out everything that is working and double down and triple down and lean into that more.

So if there's a particular angle that's working and your ad account reflects that, why spin up new angles?

Like go into that more and create pages for that.

Like lean into that.

So to answer your question like twofold is it's double down on what's working because I'm sure Even brands that are at like the 50, 100k a month mark, like you didn't get there for no reason.

Like there's things that are working for sure because you wouldn't have gotten to that point already.

So lean into what's working and then also be open to testing, like trying new things.

As far as like, if you're not testing landing pages, like maybe try it, you know, like, like it doesn't hurt, to try it and at least have context.

And then now you know it doesn't work or that specific layout didn't work, or that page type didn't work.

But it's not a failure.

It's almost like a lesson.

I actually saw like a rapper say this like it's crazy line where it goes like, there's no failures, it's only lessons.

If it's a lesson, it's a blessing.

Like it's like, it's true, you know, like, so just having like more of like just like that beginner mindset of just wanting to just trying new things and being okay with failing because that's part of the game.

And last thing I'll say to answer your question, to kind of circle back all this is, in my opinion, the brands that are most successful are the ones that fail the most.

And it comes with testing new shit.

Yeah, that's so true.

And also the doubling down on what works, I mean on the ad side, it's exactly the same.

As you just mentioned, we have so many brands where we like test a bunch of ads, we finally find a winner and the brands just want to do completely new ads, completely new stuff immediately.

And we always tell them like, sure, we still want to test new stuff, but usually like 80% of the effort should go towards something that we know that will work and just keep like reiterating previous winners and then like the other 20%, they can go towards like testing completely new stuff.

But the majority should be like doubling down on winners.

Exactly.

And to circle back to LPs.

I know that this is the topic of that.

It's, that's why 80% of your time should be spent on your above the full top, like your hero section.

Because that's what like as far as like what works, like that's what people are seeing.

So you want to spend time on things that, that are getting the most attention or getting the eyeball.

So as far as like to kind of the analogy of like what's working, like as far as like your, like your LPs or landing patients funnels.

That's the section that people are going to see like 100% of your visitors are going to see.

So that's the place you want to spend the most amount of time in.

So just kind of circle back to the time you spend should be on what's already working and leaning into that, double downing on that.

And it's this same thing honestly for all aspects of life of course, business, business but also in life like just kind of like leaning into your strengths and what you're good at and what's, what's working.

It's as simple as that.

Yeah.

What's your favorite type of landing page?

My favorite.

There's one that we did recently that has been working really well.

It's like a free gift buy box where there's a bunch of brands doing this.

Now we recently did this for a client that's been working really well where there's different tiers.

So let's say you have like, like different quantities.

So they select 1 quantity, 3 and 5 quantity.

The more that they purchase as far as like three or five, the more free gifts that unlocks and it's like a stackable tier.

That's been my favorite as far as like really focusing on like the offer.

Like kind of playing around being creative with how you present offers and making it like engaging and fun and almost like a game for people to want to, to, to spend more.

And of course it has to make sense for them to spend more.

But those type of offer pages I'm huge fan of.

And then another one is just like almost like a social proof page where that page is just stacked with a fuckton of social proof like reviews, images, videos, that as far as again building trust.

And I'm not saying that you're gonna sell them immediately but at least kind of just keeping them on top of mine where then you can retarget them and all that.

Just establishing from there.

So offer pages, like pre sell type pages like a social proof page and then even something simple that every brand could start with is just like a simple listicle.

There's so many great templates out there.

You just copy and paste that curate the content for your brand.

But something that's super simple.

It's like a simple pre sale listicle just focusing on like specific USPs that you have specific things that you can offer.

And yeah, is there a specific E commerce brand that you always look at for inspiration when it comes to landing pages.

Oh, there's a lot.

I could actually.

Let me see.

There's a few in particular, that I feel like every brand can learn from.

I'm just gonna list out a bunch.

All right, let's go with you.

Perfect.

Yeah.

So there's Loom deodorant, there's Dermatology, Carp, Norse Organics, Alpha line.

It's always good.

Pure Skin Bloom, Snow Snap supplements, Elevate, Coco and Eve.

Those are a few.

And then of course like, just like the top dogs like Happy Mammoth, Javi, brands like that, this is, I'm not affiliated with them.

If you're watching this, I hope to get like a referral code but like to use a cycle like Atria or Atria A T R I A to study different ads and different pages.

But like that's a great resource that I personally use to, to, to just see what brands are doing as far as different pages.

Studying that kind of getting a feel for what's, what other brands are testing.

And you can also see like how long those pages are running.

So to kind of get a sense of whether it's working or not because brands aren't going to spend more money on pages that don't work.

So just kind of using these different resources that we're so lucky to have.

So use those because they're there for a reason.

So yeah.

And do you think for E commerce brands, like for average E commerce brands it makes sense to look at those huge giants like for example Apple, when it comes to like landing page design or website design or do you think they're in a completely different game just because they have all of that branding and trust already tied to the brand?

Yeah, that's a good question.

As far as like taking specifically what they're doing, it doesn't make any sense for a brand that's like at the six figure mark to do what these nine figure brands are doing.

Because what I've seen a lot of nine figure brands are sending all their traffic to pdp.

So that goes against everything that I'm saying.

Right?

Like fuck me.

But, but like there's, there's specific nuances.

Like even if they're running all their traffic pdp, there's certain things that even they're doing on their product pages that you could take away.

So even like it's actually a new thing that I saw, I saw a brand, you know how the typically for product pages or even just product Images itself.

It's like that one by one.

It's like the square image.

Yeah.

There's a brand I saw that instead of having a square image, they have it more like rectangular eyes so you can fit more on the above the fold section.

So like, that's one thing I saw like a big brand do.

And I'm Like, holy shit.

Like, that's insane.

Like, it's something so simple that a lot of brands don't even think of doing.

But those are small examples or small little takeaways that you can see.

These big brands do that you can take away.

I'm not saying to take away their entire strategy doesn't make sense to do that.

But small little elements, small little things that they're doing.

And again, put it out there, see if it works.

And then now you have clarity and data and context to kind of back up your intuition, your theories, your ideas.

So it goes back to just being okay with failing and testing new shit and being okay with it not working.

Because those brands got to where they're at by failing much more than you.

Yeah.

If you could only give one piece of advice to any founder listening about landing pages, what would it be?

Oh, can I give you two?

Okay.

Yeah.

To build pages backwards from the ad.

The ad always comes first, of course, but goes down to what's working.

Build pages based on that because ad is the first thing that they're gonna see.

Second thing is to write with like sales intent.

Like focus on clarity rather than trying to sound cool or sexy.

Like, instead of trying to be clever, just actually write with the intention of selling your audience on what is you're selling.

I see.

Like that's a lot of things that people do.

So build, build pages backwards from the ad.

Write with sales intent and not with like a brand voice.

And one more thing.

Every scroll like section or each, each part should answer some sort of pre purchase question or even amplify a specific desire.

So again, the things that they're thinking already, you should already answer that.

Or even amplify specific dots or desires that they have on each section or each part of the page.

Like each page to serve a purpose is essentially what I'm saying.

And yeah, and just test more.

Just test, test more.

That's it.

Yeah, I always preach that it's true, like something that I have to, to, to, to do as well, even for my company.

But yeah, it's, it's being okay with failing.

Double down what's working and, and just test more shit.

Yeah, this was great.

Thank you very much.

Where can people learn more about you, about landing pages and how can they get in contact with you?

Yeah, for sure.

You can go to my Twitter.

That's where I'm most active.

Jeffrey Mpark J E F F R E Y Park my Twitter or X.

YouTube, same username.

And then my website, daydreamers designstudio.com you can check out some of our examples, some work that we've done for some of the cool brands.

But yeah, if you guys have any questions, you could always DM me on Twitter.

I'm.

I try to answer all them and, or, or even send me an email at Jeffay Dreamers, studio.

And yeah, dude, it was super cool.

Appreciate you having me.

I hope people watching took something out of this.

Hope this was at least somewhat valuable to.

To people.

So grateful to be here and I appreciate the time, man.

Definitely.

Yeah, really valuable.

Thank you.

Hell yeah.

Speak soon.

Peace.