Today on the bright Side.

What do Elizabeth, Gilbert Reese, Witherspoon, and Doughcy have in common.

They've all done the artist's way.

The author and godmother of creativity, Julia Cameron is with us today.

She's helped millions unblock their creativity, embrace their inner artists, and become one with the creative force.

Well, I think that morning Pages teach us to listen to our inner voice.

That's the voice in your soul which says to you you're enough, you can try.

And I think that it is in trying that we have breakthroughs.

I'm Simone Boyce and this is the bright Side from Hello Sunshine, Welcome back to the bright Side.

I am so happier here today to hear this conversation.

As I was getting ready for today's episode, I was reminded of this little girl I once knew who was obsessed with drawing castles, big castles, small castles, gray castles, Gothic castles.

Her sketches varied in style and scale, but they always had a few things in common.

A couple of turrets, at least two towers, and always always a mote.

I mean, come on, she had standards so in kindergarten.

This girl drew so many castles that everyone started calling her the castle girl.

And then one day, out of the blue, she just stopped.

If you guessed that little girl was me, you'd be right, because as I got older, I played less and strayed further and further away from that pure, childlike creative essence.

I convinced myself that the predictable path was safer than the brave one.

So I don't know, maybe you're listening and you're thinking this feels familiar to you.

Have you ever prioritized security over creativity, or perhaps thought that being creative was just a kid thing?

Or have you chosen the expected path over the one that kind of scares your heart a little?

Well, our guest today, Julia Cameron, has spent her life helping people come back to their creativity and sense of play, because she says, our internal artist is always our creative child.

She's the author of the defining text on creativity, The Artist's Way.

Put it this way, your favorite actor, musician, or filmmaker has probably done The Artist's Way.

It's a twelve week odyssey that involves daily journaling, artist dates, and a whole lot of introspection.

So today you're going to hear her expand on how she created the Artist's Way, her own artist journey, and also how we can push through seasons of drought and even sucker punch our creative bullies.

I hope today's conversation reminds you that you can always go back to the drawing board.

Let's get into it, Julia Cameron, Welcome to the bright Side.

Thank you.

It's good to be here.

It is such an honor to have you, and we're here to talk about the Daily Artist's Way three hundred and sixty six Meditations for Creative Living, which is an updated version of your renowned book, The Artists Way.

Can you start by explaining the purpose of the Artist's Way?

Ahah.

The purpose of the Artist's Way is to awaken the creativity within us.

All well, there are several transformative exercises in the original Artists Way, and I want to talk about the original text of The Artist Way for just a little while.

You have exercises where you write out a list of things that you've always wanted to do but never thought you could do.

You have exercises where you suggest that we take ourselves on artist dates and do fun activities simply for the sake of nurturing our inner art artist.

And you also talk about the morning pages.

You say that's where it all starts.

Would you explain what the morning pages are and why that is the foundation for the artist's way.

Okay, morning pages are three pages of longhand morning writing about absolutely anything.

They are where we tell the universe this is what I like, this is what I don't like, This is what I want more of, this is what I want less of.

It's as if you're.

Sending a telegram to the universe in order to let it know your precise coordinates, where you are really how you actually feel.

It's a note from your authentic self.

I found I was writing morning pages as a sense of wi witness to myself.

Morning pages keep you from being lonely.

They give you a place to speculate, to vent, to find yourself, saying to yourself, why I didn't know I felt like that.

As you discover more and more of your authentic self, you find yourself feeling a sense of connection, a sense of feeling productive.

You begin to feel a sense of fun.

I'll be honest, and you actually talk about this in your book.

When I first read the concept of morning pages, I thought to myself, what am I going to write about for three pages?

That's a lot.

And then when you allow yourself to accept this invitation into your subconscious and it's just stream of consciousness writing all of this, all these revelations just pour out, and it's actually a lot easier than I thought it would be.

Yes, I think.

That when people first read about morning pages, they think that's fine for other people, but I can't see myself doing it.

Then they start.

What they find when they start is that they are enticed.

They are enticed into revelation.

And I noticed something as I was flipping through my copy of The Artists Way last night.

I noticed that each chapter of The Artist Way is less about creating and more about recovering.

It is about recovering a sense of identity, recovering a sense of possibility.

And that also has roots in twelve step programs in sobriety, which you have been a huge champion of.

It seems to me like creativity, from your perspective, is something that we all have and then lose at some point.

What do we lose and who takes it from us?

Well?

I think we lose a sense of connection.

We lose a sense of possibility, We lose a sense of the probability that we are able to create.

I think it comes down to having an experience of negativity.

When we first broach the idea that, let's say we want to be a writer, the parental voice says, don't you think you might need something to fall back on?

Having that teacher, parent, even a sibling can be a name.

Of course, when we encounter this negativity, we don't stand up for ourselves.

We don't say, wait a minute, I know I can do this.

Instead, we say, oh, I guess I was getting a little bit too big for my breches.

You actually say that our internal artist is always our creative child.

Is there something to the idea that the hobby or the interest that we fell in love with as kids is the purest expression of our creative ambitions.

I think that we find ourselves remembering dreams, remembering aspirations, remembering hope that when we remember, we get a little bit excited and we think, oh, this is a wonderful thing and it's mine.

How would you describe yourself as a child.

I was very curious.

I had a feeling a possibility and I came from a big family, and I was taught that when I learned something, I should teach it to one of my siblings.

And I feel like that's the root of the artist's way, that it came from tools that I learned, and then I thought, oh, I better spread them.

I gave them to what I thought of as a small group of people, and it turns out to be a much larger group of people than I had imagined.

Would you tell me more about how you learned those tools?

How did they come to you?

Well?

I think they came to me through intuition.

They came to me through hunches.

They came to me through thinking, Oh, this works for me, like the Morning Pages, and maybe it'll work for others.

So it was the hunch that something that had worked for me would indeed work for others.

I didn't have a mentor, I didn't have a teacher telling me the tools, but I had an intuition that the tools would work.

Did you ever have anyone kind of shake the creative hope out of you or has it always been there all along?

I think it's always been there.

I think that I'm lucky to come from a family where creativity was encouraged.

I have an older sister who's a writer.

I have a younger brother who's a musician.

I have another younger brother who's a musician.

I have a younger sister who is an artist.

Our parents never.

Said to us, oh, I think you should cut that out.

Instead, they said, oh, let me see what it is you can do.

So I had seven siblings who are all prompting me to go forward.

We've got to take a short break, but we'll be right back with Julia Cameron.

And we're back with Julia Cameron.

While you may not have struggled with a loss of creative hope, you have been opened up the fact that you struggled with jugs and alcohol for many years to the point of believing that you actually needed them in order to be creative when it comes to your sobriety.

What kind of breakthroughs did you experience on the other side of that courageous decision.

I found myself remembering a line from the poet Dylan Thomas, who said that he believed in the force that through the green fuse.

Drives the flower.

Found myself connecting to that experience and feeling like maybe there was hope.

For me, it was.

A wonderful thing to find myself feeling hopeful again.

And I found mysel So I.

Was told to let the higher power, the force of the universe, write through me.

And I said, what if it doesn't want to, And they said, well.

Just try it.

So I tried letting the higher power write through me.

And what I found was that it was willing to write through me, that it had a sense of direction and positivity that I could tap into at will.

So I found myself feeling like like it was important to try and make contact with the greater power.

That was the big breakthrough for me was feeling like it's possible, just try it.

So you mentioned that chapter when you were a journalist for Rolling Stone in the Washington Post and you were rubbing shoulders with some of the most famous artists and prolific creators of our time, I mean, Joan Didion, Nora Ephron, you wrote a short film with your ex husband Martin Scorsese.

What was that era like for you?

Are there any stories that come to mind from being in those rooms with those big artists.

Well, I think the thing that was important to me was that they were encouraging to me.

For example, with Marty, whom I later married, I found myself feeling like, well, if he can write a movie, I can write a movie.

And he didn't say to me, don't try.

He didn't say to me, it's something that only a few of us can do.

He was encouraging to me.

I found myself feeling hope.

And hope was the big turning point for me when dealing with other artists.

Was that the moment when you realize creativity is truly a galitarian.

I think I had a hunch that it was egalitarian, that I needed to try to manifest it for myself.

I think I was very lucky in my acquaintances.

I remember Nora every I'm saying to me, once you write the best leads in America, And I thought, this is incredible urging me.

She's telling me I have something special and that I should use it.

What a beautiful reminder for us to be encouraging two other artists on their journey.

Do you think that those conversations made it onto the page and here were you shaped by them in that way?

Well?

I feel like I had this spiritual awakening that came to me through trying tools.

I think it's a wonderful thing now when I hear I wrote the Artist's Way for everybody.

But sometimes I'll hear of a celebrity who is using the book, and I'll get a little bit excited.

I suppose that's an example of the fame drug at work, but I feel like I find myself feeling validated.

You know, I'll hear that Alicia Keys has used the book, or Reese Witherspoon has used the book, or Goldiehan has used the book.

It feels wonderful.

I can't tell you how comforting it is to hear that Julia Cameron herself still feels a boost from validation because all artists do, right.

I think we get excited.

I know I'm excited when I hear that somebody's using the tools.

I feel like, oh, it's a wonderful thing.

I gave an early copy of the Artist's Way to Martin Scorsese.

We were by then divorced but amicable, and he said, it's a company flex and delicate subject.

But for those who will use it, this book is a great aide.

What does he think about it now?

I don't know.

I find myself feeling sometimes like the new York Times did an article on me, and I found myself thinking, I wonder if Marty has read that.

Really, I don't call him up and say, are you aware of the impact that I've had?

But I did put his quote on the book.

Yeah.

What would it mean to you if he had seen that New York Times article?

Or what would it mean to you if he had known the impact that you've had?

Well?

I think I admire his artistry.

I admire the many films that he has gone forward to make.

I think that I would find myself feeling validated.

That feels totally human.

I want to ask you about fame and validation and success, because one of the best lessons that I gained from your work is honoring the dignity of the process, honoring the dignity of the work as opposed to the end result, like validation or fame.

What is the one thing you wish all artists knew about fame?

I guess I wish that they would understand that the process is more important than the result.

And I guess I would say, are you making art?

Is it making you happy?

I think that fame is a false gol.

We are living in a culture that counts fame as being very important, and I'm not sure that it is that important.

I'm not sure that fame is something that we should actively seek.

I think it's a byproduct of what happens to us.

And speaking for myself, I found myself feeling like the notoriety that I've gained from the artist's way is something that I didn't seek.

I was tried to help people.

People recognize that and got excited.

Here's my question about validation, because clearly this is a word that keeps coming up.

I get that we shouldn't be seeking fame.

I completely agree with you on that.

How do we know we're on the right path if no one is validating our work.

This is where morning pages are so useful.

I think that when we do morning pages, they give us a sense of solidity and hope and progress.

I know for myself, I made a feature film then the sound was stolen and I had to dub the whole film.

I found myself trusting Mourning Pages when it said just keep going, just keep going.

That's what The message that I think they give to everybody who uses them.

Is that how you get through periods of drought as well, Because Drought is another thing that you talk about in the artist's way, that it's something that everyone goes through.

You know, when the money drives up, the phone isn't ringing, you're not as relevant as you once were, and you say that those droughts are actually necessary as an artist.

How did you get through periods of drought in your own career?

I used morning Pages?

Why did I have a feeling you were going to say that?

So, speaking about morning Pages, what have the morning Pages revealed to you about where our sense of power should come from as artists?

Well, I think that morning pages teach us to listen to our inner voice.

They teach us to listen to what spiritual seekers would call the still small voice.

That's the voice in your soul which says to you, you're enough, you're good enough, you're big enough.

You can try.

And I think that it is in trying that we have breakthroughs.

We need to take a short break, but we'll be right back with Julia Cameron.

And if you have a friend who's creatively blocked, go ahead and share this episode with them.

I bet they'd love to hear it.

And we're back with Julia Cameron.

One of my favorite artists way exercises is when you ask us to write a letter to our creative bully.

Well, I think we all have had experiences with bullies.

I have them doing exercise where I say, name your inner critic, and the meanest thing it's ever said to you, in my case, would say, Julia, you're boring, you're repetitive.

Then what would you like to tell your inner critic?

So this is where the letter to the bully comes in, where you find yourself writing.

Buzz off, very cathartic.

I have an inner critic who's been with me for fifty five years, ever since I was eighteen years old, and I call him Nigel.

I named him Nigel because it was such a picky name.

Nigel will say to me, Julia, no one's going to want to read this book.

And I've learned to say to Nigel, Nigel, buzz off, and to just keep writing.

Was there something that happened to you when you were eighteen that led to the creation of Nigel in your own mind?

Well, I'm a poet and I found myself feeling like my poetry wasn't good enough.

And then I found myself saying, well, just who's telling you that it's not good enough, and the answer was, well, I think it's Nigel.

Now, the theme of self care, self nurture and taking downtime is something that comes up a lot in your writing.

That's what artist states are all about, taking yourself on a fun excursion just to reconnect with your inner artists.

Why is that something that you write about so much?

Well, I think we have a culture that tells us that art should be difficult, that we should experience maybe a sense of foreboding if we're trying art.

And what I have discovered is that art is born out of whimsy, frivolity play.

When you make a piece of art, you're drawing on an inner well.

And it says, if you have a certain number of creative fish and you're trying to hook the big fish, if you are working streadfastly, you may find that you overfish your well and that the fish become elusive and harsh to find.

And that's what I learned, that I needed to do something to restock my inner well.

And that's where art of States came into play.

This is a hot take in today's world, Julia, that you're you're telling me that us you're allowed to have fun As an artist, you're allowed to have joy and you're allowed to smile as you create.

We don't have to create from a place of pain.

Always.

Yes, I want to read you something.

We believe that art is made through pain, but we eventually learned that.

Art can be made through joy.

And this is.

A poem about joy.

It's called Jerusalem is walking in this world.

I can't wait.

This is a great happiness.

The air is silk.

There is milk in the looks that come from strangers.

I could not be happier if I were bread and you could eat me.

Joy is dangerous.

It fills me with secrets.

Yes, kisses in my veins, the pains I take to hide myself on a shearer's glass.

Surely this will pass the wind like kisses, the music in the soup, the group of trees laughing as I say their name.

It is all Hosanna, It is all prayer.

Jerusalem is walking in this world.

Jerusalem is walking in this world.

Thank you.

I love viewing art as a joyful process.

So we've talked a lot about self knowledge, and as much as the Artist's Way is about self knowledge, Julia, it's also about knowing who you are surrounding yourself with.

And one of the things I love about this book is you've really invented an entirely new language to describe our creative expert and you coined the term believing mirrors.

Who are they?

What is a believing mirror?

Aha?

A believing mirror is somebody who mirrors back to you your authentic size and possibility.

A believing mirror is somebody who says, I think.

You can do that.

A believing mirrors somebody who says, do you dare?

I think you should?

Dare I've had At the beginning of this interview, you talked about my being surrounded by wonderful artists, and they were for me believing mirrors.

When I think about the creative journey that I am on, I know it would not be possible without a few believing mirrors in my life.

I just love the way that you phrased that, And you also imbued words like synchronicity with new meaning.

Can you describe what synchronicity means in the universe of the Artist's way and also give me your favorite example of that.

Synchronicity is sort of the uncanny meshing of our inner world.

And our outer world.

It's another way to put it is luck.

Synchronicity is luck.

We happen to be in the right place at the right time.

To go back to Marty, I was lucky.

I was assigned to write about him.

He was having breakthrough films.

He gave me a script of Taxi Driver to read and I read it and I thought parts of it aren't right.

So I sat down and I wrote what I thought was right, and I gave it to him, and instead of saying, who do you think you are?

He said, can I use this?

And that was an example of synchronicity for me.

How did that feel in that moment?

Exciting?

Do you believe you can make your own luck?

Yes?

Again, I keep coming back to try writing morning pages.

If you write morning pages, you will make your own luck.

If you write morning pages and you take artist states, you will have synchronicity.

You will have an experience of being in the right time, at the right place.

How do you explain that.

I I don't explain it.

I'm just saying try it.

Try it.

Julia, you have dealt with your fair share of criticism, and as any artist does, right, you see that humor is your secret weapon.

How do you use humor to process critiques that you don't necessarily want?

Well, I wrote a novel, a crime novel, and I got nineteen positive reviews, and then the twentieth review came out, and unfortunately it was in the New York Times, and it was negative.

The reviewer didn't like it that my hero.

Was a Youngian.

He evidently was afraid, so he reviewed the book in terms of Carl Jung's career, and he was scathing.

I felt like I had been covered with sackcloth and ashes, and that I shouldn't want the streets of New.

York for shame.

And then I thought, wait.

A minute, you know what to do about this, And I sat down and I wrote this little poem goes out to Bill Kent, who must feel awful the way that he spent his time critiquing Carl Jung instead of on the work done.

Just writing that little humor is something lifted my sense of shame, and I have found that it always.

Works in reflecting on the impact that you've had.

Julia, you mentioned that you originally wrote The Artist's Way for a handful of friends, and I hear that you are passing around xerox copies of pages of the book before it actually ever got bound together into this work that we all know today, and your work, specifically, The Artist Way has influenced millions of lives, celebrities like Elizabeth Gilbert, Reese, Witherspoon, Doci, who documented her entire Artist Way journey on her YouTube channel.

I hear that at your house you have artist Way trophies everywhere, these little mementos that people have sent you through the years to commemorate their finished creative works that you inspired.

Would you share a couple that stand out to you.

I go to my mailbox, I open it up.

In it are things like a book by my friend Sophie Burnham.

Sophie says that I'm responsible for her writing her newest book, and I say, no, Selphie, you are responsible for writing your newest book.

But it gives to be glee to think that maybe when she was depressed, she found herself thinking, Oh, the Artist's Way says, just try it.

That must be so exciting to see messages like that come in the mail.

And I want to talk about your new book, The Daily Artist Way, which as we mentioned, is three hundred and sixty six meditations for creative living, quotes prompts on how to live your best creative life.

What inspired you to create a daily book?

And why now?

Why this moment in time?

Well, I think it's always time.

So why at this moment in time did I choose to write so deeply about creativity?

And I think it was because I had a feeling that it would catch up with people, that the three hundred and sixty six meditations would be something that they would find useful.

I found myself saying, Oh, I've said it before, but I think i'll say it again.

Creativity is part of all of us.

Recently, I got reviewed and it said Julius tools are simple and repetitive, and I thought, I think that's supposed to be an insult, But I actually am thrilled that my tools are simple and repetitive, because that's exactly what tools should be.

So the Daily Artist's Way was born out of the conviction that you could say it more than once.

Is there a particular order that you recommend readers approach your work?

Do you think that they should start with the original Artist's Way and then move on to the Daily Artists Way?

Yes, yes, I think that would work.

Fine, well, Julia, this is my final question for you.

It's something I like to ask every guest on our show.

What is one thing you're celebrating in your life right now?

I'm in a pause.

I usually go book to book to book to book to book, and I've written fifty books, so that's a lot of books.

And I'm giving myself permission to pause, to slow down, to wait for an idea to come to me, rather than rushing ahead.

So I think.

I think my message that I'm celebrating right now is it's all right to show down.

Well, Julia Cameron, this has been one of the greatest pleasures of my career.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Julia Cameron is the best selling writer of The Artists Way.

Her new book, The Daily Artist Way three hundred and sixty six Meditations for Creative Living is out now.

I want to hear what this conversation unlocked for you, So if you want to keep the conversation going, hit me up on Instagram or anywhere on social media at Simone Boyce.

The bright Side is a production of Hello, Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts and is executive produced by Reese Witherspoon and me Simone Boyce.

Production is by A Cast Creative Studios.

Our producers are Taylor Williamson, Abby Delk, and Adrian Bain.

Our production assistant is Joya putnoy Acasts Executive producers are Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder.

Maureen Polo and Reese Witherspoon are the executive producers for Hello Sunshine.

Ali Perry and Lauren Hansen are the executive producers for iHeart Podcasts.

Our theme song is by Anna Stump and Hamilton Lakehouser