1 00:00:26,734 --> 00:00:31,821 Welcome to another edition of Colts and the Colting of America podcast. 2 00:00:31,821 --> 00:00:37,598 My name is Scott Lloyd along with knitting colt lady, Daniela Messeneck Young. 3 00:00:37,598 --> 00:00:42,284 Daniela, it is a rapture day and we're still here. 4 00:00:42,419 --> 00:00:42,859 Day. 5 00:00:42,859 --> 00:00:44,119 I didn't get raptured. 6 00:00:44,119 --> 00:00:45,259 Like, I'm ready. 7 00:00:45,259 --> 00:00:48,199 I'm in my finest whites. 8 00:00:48,199 --> 00:00:50,666 I've got Saturnita, my little planet here. 9 00:00:50,666 --> 00:00:52,250 very disappointing. 10 00:00:52,339 --> 00:00:53,383 Not yet, anyway. 11 00:00:53,383 --> 00:00:55,912 I suppose there are a few hours left. 12 00:00:57,378 --> 00:01:00,216 I mean, reports from Australia have come in. 13 00:01:00,216 --> 00:01:00,530 Ha 14 00:01:00,530 --> 00:01:03,623 We are grateful tonight to have Joe joining us. 15 00:01:03,623 --> 00:01:06,745 Joe, it is an honor to have you on the podcast. 16 00:01:06,745 --> 00:01:09,989 Why don't you take a moment and introduce yourself to our audience? 17 00:01:09,989 --> 00:01:12,954 it's so great to be here with you tonight. 18 00:01:12,954 --> 00:01:17,151 So I am a veterinarian in New Orleans, Louisiana. 19 00:01:17,151 --> 00:01:25,866 I grew up in Montana um and came down to New Orleans to attend Tulane University in 2001. 20 00:01:25,866 --> 00:01:35,972 Graduated right before Hurricane Katrina and thankfully I was not still in college at that point, but we did live here still. 21 00:01:36,532 --> 00:01:45,157 So spent a little time back in Montana um after Katrina and came back late in the year. 22 00:01:45,765 --> 00:01:57,287 after the city was reopened and basically started working for a veterinary clinic as an assistant after graduating from Tulane. 23 00:01:57,287 --> 00:02:09,702 I had really, you know, in my mind wanted to attend vet school or med school, but I wanted to sort of try it on, see if it fit well, see if I could, you know, handle the emotional 24 00:02:09,702 --> 00:02:11,773 aspects of vet med. 25 00:02:11,829 --> 00:02:13,739 um And I really loved it. 26 00:02:13,739 --> 00:02:26,137 I mean, obviously we're here tonight to talk about some of the, you know, I guess good and bad points of veterinary medicine, but ultimately went to vet school back in Colorado in 27 00:02:26,137 --> 00:02:30,980 Fort Collins and moved right back to New Orleans after I graduated. 28 00:02:30,980 --> 00:02:33,260 So I've been a vet here since 2011. 29 00:02:33,260 --> 00:02:40,995 And so, you know, of course, there's great things about veterinary medicine, just like there's great things about regular medicine. 30 00:02:40,995 --> 00:02:46,397 But one of the things that we tend to find in the study of cults. 31 00:02:46,518 --> 00:02:49,750 So two interesting things, cults hate medicine. 32 00:02:49,750 --> 00:02:59,676 And also that when I talk about cult stuff, and I break down like the tactics, the techniques, the procedures of cults, the individual things cults do, 33 00:02:59,776 --> 00:03:05,128 People from the medical personnel will often compare themselves to that. 34 00:03:05,190 --> 00:03:09,501 And I'm just fascinated to know what you think about any of that. 35 00:03:09,501 --> 00:03:22,204 So I have to be honest, I had never really thought about like cults with respect to medicine or particularly veterinary medicine um until we sort of started talking about 36 00:03:22,204 --> 00:03:23,595 doing this podcast. 37 00:03:23,595 --> 00:03:36,558 And it is really interesting some of the parallels that come up, um especially with what we call like the helping professions, Like doctors, pediatricians, therapists, 38 00:03:36,558 --> 00:03:39,379 occupational therapists, veterinarians. 39 00:03:39,515 --> 00:03:49,221 Um, and I do think there are a lot of interesting parallels, um, and sort of culty, qualities of veterinary medicine. 40 00:03:50,262 --> 00:04:04,292 you know, uh a lot of, a lot of these sort of like overwork as a virtue and, um, you know, sort of moral injury and guilt as like a method of control, if you will. 41 00:04:04,292 --> 00:04:09,335 Um, I think are, are huge in veterinary medicine. 42 00:04:09,355 --> 00:04:18,180 Um, particularly because we are, you know, we're dealing with animals, which is just an emotional thing in and of itself. 43 00:04:18,180 --> 00:04:25,565 Um, but I think as vets, we care tremendously about our patients and our clients as well, for the most part. 44 00:04:25,565 --> 00:04:36,551 And it's, it's really hard sometimes to turn off that, that compassion that we have and that, you know, desire to help when it comes to. 45 00:04:36,647 --> 00:04:46,034 you know, either failing and losing a patient or not being able to work to make it happen financially in some cases. 46 00:04:46,034 --> 00:04:48,346 So that's a huge thing, I think, with a lot of that. 47 00:04:48,346 --> 00:04:53,077 Joe, initially, oh what attracted you to veterinarian medicine? 48 00:04:53,077 --> 00:04:55,468 Did you have a love for animals growing up? 49 00:04:55,468 --> 00:04:57,219 Was that part of it? 50 00:04:57,219 --> 00:05:08,442 And uh my follow-up question will be, what did you expect that it would be going to veterinarian school and then getting into the profession? 51 00:05:08,442 --> 00:05:15,275 And then what was it in actuality uh that sort of maybe uh 52 00:05:15,275 --> 00:05:21,965 showed you the real side of veterinarian medicine as opposed to what you thought it would be. 53 00:05:21,965 --> 00:05:24,847 Yes, so um those are great questions. 54 00:05:24,847 --> 00:05:32,712 So I think for me, yes, of course, I think anyone who goes into veterinary medicine has a love of animals and living things. 55 00:05:32,712 --> 00:05:42,699 And I think that's whether you grew up in a city and had a pet cat or grew up on a farm and were used to more of the large animal focus. 56 00:05:42,699 --> 00:05:51,344 I think that all of us get into veterinary medicine to care for animals and be able to make their lives better. 57 00:05:51,949 --> 00:05:53,330 you know, clients' lives better. 58 00:05:53,330 --> 00:06:07,350 um I also really, as I went through my education, I was really uh into the challenge that veterinary medicine presented, you know, like uh I do think that we in veterinary medicine 59 00:06:07,350 --> 00:06:11,309 have this amazing opportunity to challenge ourselves every day. 60 00:06:11,309 --> 00:06:20,761 You know, we see so many different species, even if you're just a, you know, small animal veterinarian that sees dogs and cats, you know. 61 00:06:20,761 --> 00:06:23,063 Sometimes we'll see wildlife that comes in. 62 00:06:23,063 --> 00:06:34,904 We might see like guinea pigs and rabbits and if you're a mixed animal practitioner in a rural setting, you're going to see everything from large animals to reptiles and exotics 63 00:06:34,904 --> 00:06:36,795 and dogs and cats. 64 00:06:36,895 --> 00:06:47,833 And basically as a general practitioner, we're doing everything from pediatric care to surgeries to internal medicine where their eye doctor 65 00:06:47,833 --> 00:06:51,844 were their dermatologists, were their heart doctors, were basically everything. 66 00:06:51,844 --> 00:07:02,024 You know, obviously there are specialists available for a lot of those sort of niche more specialty treatments that they would need, but yeah, it's a challenge. 67 00:07:02,024 --> 00:07:12,344 Every day I see new things and I get to, you know, like I got to take care of an injured crow the other day and I occasionally see other wildlife and you know, I have a tiny 68 00:07:12,344 --> 00:07:17,048 little baby kitten foster right now that I'm sort of... 69 00:07:17,056 --> 00:07:20,708 trying to keep alive here, you know, it's a challenge. 70 00:07:20,708 --> 00:07:22,258 Every day's a challenge. 71 00:07:23,099 --> 00:07:31,162 I do think that hearing a client say like, you have such a great job, you just play with puppies and kittens all day. 72 00:07:31,162 --> 00:07:36,820 And that is, I think that for the little kids that want to be a veterinarian, that's the dream, right? 73 00:07:36,820 --> 00:07:38,945 To get to just play with puppies and kittens all day. 74 00:07:38,945 --> 00:07:44,828 And uh it's a lot more complicated than that. 75 00:07:44,828 --> 00:07:45,886 um 76 00:07:45,886 --> 00:08:01,210 You know, I think that as veterinarians, we see people through the entire sort of spectrum of the human animal experience, from the joy of getting or adopting a new pet to, you 77 00:08:01,210 --> 00:08:11,924 know, going through the emotional roller coasters if they get sick to, you know, either losing them at the end of their lives or through some, you know, tragic illness or through 78 00:08:11,924 --> 00:08:13,600 humane euthanasia. 79 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,542 But we go through all of these things with our clients. 80 00:08:16,542 --> 00:08:21,605 um And it is, it's an emotional roller coaster of a job, you know? 81 00:08:21,605 --> 00:08:34,563 um And so that is one of the things I was sort of prepared for, but maybe not to the level at which we experience those highs and lows. 82 00:08:34,563 --> 00:08:48,263 Yeah, so one of the interesting things to me on our fact sheet for talking to you for tonight was that veterinarians have a high suicide rate, which is something that makes my 83 00:08:48,263 --> 00:08:50,305 cult spidey sense grow up. 84 00:08:50,305 --> 00:08:56,369 First of all, I wondered if they mixed up vet and vet, know, like veteran veterinarians. 85 00:08:56,369 --> 00:09:01,981 But we, we see this a lot in cults and 86 00:09:01,981 --> 00:09:14,042 think there's an interesting thing in the helping professions, in the passion jobs, in almost any job that people got into because they have a passion for it. 87 00:09:14,042 --> 00:09:18,004 It's easy for that passion to kind of get exploited. 88 00:09:18,405 --> 00:09:26,021 And I would especially think as a veterinarian, there's a lot of attitude control in your job. 89 00:09:26,021 --> 00:09:27,712 of just bedside manner. 90 00:09:27,712 --> 00:09:35,138 You're seeing people, like you said, on their best days, which I assume is easier, but also on their worst days, which can be really hard. 91 00:09:35,159 --> 00:09:43,105 And having to maintain that very kind of stoic masking, if you will, appearance. 92 00:09:43,746 --> 00:09:47,989 This is one of the things that I think ties to suicide in cults. 93 00:09:47,989 --> 00:09:50,362 And I wonder your thoughts on that. 94 00:09:50,362 --> 00:10:08,150 No, think that's a really good observation because in any given day as a veterinarian, and I think that honestly ER veterinarians probably get the worst of all of this because 95 00:10:08,150 --> 00:10:18,738 they're seeing clients who they often don't already have a pre-existing relationship with in a very high intensity, high emotion situation when they're pet. 96 00:10:18,738 --> 00:10:23,640 could have been just hit by a car or is dying of congestive heart failure. 97 00:10:24,421 --> 00:10:33,426 And they're having to go from appointment to appointment, going through all of these emotional uh situations with the owners. 98 00:10:33,426 --> 00:10:45,563 But yeah, even as a general practitioner, I might have to go from putting to sleep a patient that I've been seeing for the last 12 years for its entire life with clients who I 99 00:10:45,563 --> 00:10:47,558 love and adore to... 100 00:10:47,558 --> 00:10:59,584 like a new puppy visit or like a wellness visit where I have to go from, you know, crying with my clients who have just lost their beloved pet to, you know, just kind of turning 101 00:10:59,584 --> 00:11:12,280 around and being kind of my normal, know, bubbly self and trying to move on to the next visit and kind of trying to let that last visit go, which is really hard to do 102 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:13,121 emotionally. 103 00:11:13,121 --> 00:11:17,234 I was wondering, about dealing with people. 104 00:11:17,234 --> 00:11:31,315 I know in the medical profession, I imagine that there are a lot of doctors, even in veterinarian medicine, where the patient comes in and the owners of the patient may tell 105 00:11:31,315 --> 00:11:36,709 you that this is the problem, but you have to correct them with information. 106 00:11:36,709 --> 00:11:39,731 I think even in the larger 107 00:11:39,768 --> 00:11:42,650 conversation that we're having in our country right now. 108 00:11:42,650 --> 00:11:55,886 oh Just yesterday as we taped this, the Health and Human Services Secretary came out with some information and there's a lot of controversy swirling around oh who has correct 109 00:11:55,886 --> 00:11:57,598 information, who doesn't. 110 00:11:57,598 --> 00:12:07,703 How do you handle situations like that where a patient or in your case, the owner of a patient is telling you, well, this is the problem. 111 00:12:07,703 --> 00:12:20,747 but you have access to more information, more training, more scientific uh discovery than they do, how do you handle those particular situations and does it come up often? 112 00:12:20,747 --> 00:12:35,651 And then also I would think if people are correcting you that don't have half of the training that you do, that that could also contribute to low morale and uh difficulty, uh 113 00:12:35,651 --> 00:12:36,716 mental. 114 00:12:36,716 --> 00:12:39,697 situations for veterinarians. 115 00:12:39,697 --> 00:12:49,662 Absolutely, mean, those are always hard cases because I think, you know, I like to always think that everyone has the best interest of the pet in mind. 116 00:12:49,662 --> 00:12:59,216 And so I think a lot of times when people come in with that viewpoint, you know, in a lot of situations, they've been Googling something and they've been trying their best to 117 00:12:59,216 --> 00:13:02,847 understand what's going on with their pet because they're worried about them. 118 00:13:03,788 --> 00:13:06,229 And I mean, I think it does. 119 00:13:06,277 --> 00:13:13,610 You know, it runs the gamut from clients who are, you know, I think with the appropriate communication style. 120 00:13:13,610 --> 00:13:16,739 I mean, I think if you come at them and say like, no, you're, wrong. 121 00:13:16,739 --> 00:13:17,502 This is stupid. 122 00:13:17,502 --> 00:13:22,674 You know, this is, this is the right answer that not many people are going to respond well to that. 123 00:13:22,674 --> 00:13:30,788 But I think just approaching from a place of understanding and saying, look, I, understand that you're, you know, you're worried, you're concerned. 124 00:13:30,788 --> 00:13:34,533 Like, here are some thoughts that I have based on. 125 00:13:34,533 --> 00:13:39,357 based in science, based on your pet's physical exam, based on the diagnostics that we can do. 126 00:13:39,357 --> 00:13:46,383 um And my goal is to always work towards the best outcome for the pet. 127 00:13:46,383 --> 00:13:59,435 If we need to come to some sort of middle ground where maybe I'm not necessarily going to be coming out with them agreeing with me, but we can find some middle ground to take care 128 00:13:59,435 --> 00:14:02,487 of this animal, um I think that's... 129 00:14:02,629 --> 00:14:11,075 You know, those situations are, um but they're always tough because, you know, sometimes you just can't change people's minds and we know that. 130 00:14:11,415 --> 00:14:20,161 And whatever, you know, whatever I can do as the veterinarian in that situation to help the animal is what I'm going to do my best to achieve. 131 00:14:20,161 --> 00:14:25,125 um There are cases where, you know, people will... 132 00:14:25,905 --> 00:14:28,325 take their animal home against medical advice. 133 00:14:28,325 --> 00:14:32,465 And that happens in veterinary medicine, not infrequently. 134 00:14:32,465 --> 00:14:48,165 And I think a lot of times as veterinarians, we internalize that as our failure to be able to show the client what truly is going on with the animal or a failure to be able to save 135 00:14:48,165 --> 00:14:51,216 that patient or make that patient better before they leave. 136 00:14:51,216 --> 00:14:54,146 Those are really tough because I think 137 00:14:54,146 --> 00:14:58,081 many, many, many veterinarians are, you know, we're perfectionists. 138 00:14:58,081 --> 00:15:00,944 are, you know, high drive people. 139 00:15:00,944 --> 00:15:03,998 We're very compassionate people. 140 00:15:03,998 --> 00:15:13,559 And I think a lot of us are sensitive introverts and that kind of is a recipe for a disaster when you feel like you're failing your patients, you know. 141 00:15:13,559 --> 00:15:14,091 m 142 00:15:14,091 --> 00:15:24,787 Daniela, earlier you raised an interesting question that I wanted to follow up with you about, and that's the idea that we know in cults and a lot of these high control groups, 143 00:15:24,787 --> 00:15:31,661 they uh have a disposition where they are often adverse to any medical treatment. 144 00:15:31,661 --> 00:15:33,782 But what did that look like for pets? 145 00:15:33,782 --> 00:15:43,927 And in the children of God specifically, your circumstance, were families in the cult allowed to have pets? 146 00:15:44,092 --> 00:15:45,614 What did that look like? 147 00:15:45,614 --> 00:15:51,911 And also if the pet became sick, was there any protocols in place? 148 00:15:51,911 --> 00:15:58,098 What did that look like as far as interacting with veterinarians or medicine in general? 149 00:15:58,098 --> 00:15:59,798 Yeah, it's interesting. 150 00:15:59,798 --> 00:16:04,678 I've been thinking about this over the last few days, talking about lack of empathy, you know. 151 00:16:04,678 --> 00:16:10,478 So first, I would say like in the cult that I grew up in, we just didn't really have possessions. 152 00:16:10,598 --> 00:16:15,458 You know, there's a there's a part in uncultured where I get a Bible as a birthday gift. 153 00:16:15,458 --> 00:16:17,838 And I'm like, yes, I won't have to share this. 154 00:16:17,838 --> 00:16:20,498 And nobody can tell me I'm being too selfish with it. 155 00:16:20,498 --> 00:16:23,778 Nobody can tell me I'm too obsessed with it and take it away. 156 00:16:23,778 --> 00:16:28,114 And I was like, a little autistic girl, this really sucked because 157 00:16:28,114 --> 00:16:29,915 couldn't have anything. 158 00:16:30,256 --> 00:16:42,626 So, but then I would say like, in cults, you have this tremendous lack of empathy, because everything is hierarchical, and everything is about labor, and everything is about profit. 159 00:16:42,626 --> 00:16:45,849 And like, that gets passed down to the children. 160 00:16:45,849 --> 00:16:56,838 And, you know, experts like Janja Lalic have said that in almost every cult you see, the children are extremely controlled and abused in a harsh way. 161 00:16:57,138 --> 00:17:03,678 And I feel like if that's how they treat the children, even more so for the animals. 162 00:17:03,678 --> 00:17:07,598 like, I mean, for sure, I was in a different cultures too. 163 00:17:07,598 --> 00:17:14,738 So it's hard to say because like the animals didn't live inside, but it was much more a la the farmhouse life, right? 164 00:17:14,738 --> 00:17:21,222 Like the kids work outside all day, the animals are out there, like the kids are cleaning up after the animals. 165 00:17:21,222 --> 00:17:23,223 And it was much more about utility. 166 00:17:23,223 --> 00:17:27,825 Like we had dogs as guard dogs and we had cats for catching mice. 167 00:17:28,066 --> 00:17:36,496 And oh I did get the experience of getting to have like a turtle for a few years when I was between 10 and 12. 168 00:17:36,496 --> 00:17:43,054 And it was because my grandfather who was a big, famous, fancy leader bought it for me for my birthday. 169 00:17:43,054 --> 00:17:47,036 And so nobody could take it away or say it had to be the whole group thing. 170 00:17:47,316 --> 00:17:50,518 But, and I will say it's common. 171 00:17:50,874 --> 00:17:58,622 it specifically with like the Amish, for example, that it's like, it's known that they're just very, very terrible to their animals. 172 00:17:58,622 --> 00:18:12,407 And it is this, in my opinion, the sort of lack of empathy and deadening of even just the concept that you're an individual and like you exist to like, be and not just serve. 173 00:18:12,407 --> 00:18:13,509 If that makes sense. 174 00:18:13,509 --> 00:18:14,379 Yeah. 175 00:18:14,379 --> 00:18:27,519 And Joe, just to kind of follow up on that, in your experience, I imagine that you come across pet owners who maybe you, the perception is there's not a whole lot of empathy 176 00:18:27,519 --> 00:18:28,249 here. 177 00:18:28,249 --> 00:18:38,457 But my instinct would tell me if you have a pet, right, if you have to care for an animal, that that should develop empathy within you. 178 00:18:38,457 --> 00:18:41,870 But I'm assuming that that isn't always the case. 179 00:18:41,870 --> 00:18:48,235 in terms of clients, of course, you know, like Danielle said, people have animals for all different reasons. 180 00:18:48,235 --> 00:18:55,920 um You know, people have dogs that they use for breeding and that's it, you know. 181 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,893 um Now, are there people who breed their animals that care about them? 182 00:18:59,893 --> 00:19:00,504 Of course. 183 00:19:00,504 --> 00:19:03,466 um Are there people that... 184 00:19:03,724 --> 00:19:11,858 you know, have dogs that they breathe until they are not producing letters of puppies and then dump them off at the shelter on the side of the highway. 185 00:19:11,858 --> 00:19:14,058 Yes, there are those people as well. 186 00:19:14,058 --> 00:19:21,982 um You know, two of my, well, my two cats um I adopted a couple of years ago. 187 00:19:21,982 --> 00:19:31,406 They were dropped off at a veterinary hospital as a convenience euthanasia um because of change of lifestyle. 188 00:19:32,238 --> 00:19:38,489 And they were seniors, so they were about 12 years old, but they were otherwise healthy cats. 189 00:19:38,489 --> 00:19:49,449 And the veterinary hospital did not euthanize the cats and ended up basically putting them up for adoption. 190 00:19:49,609 --> 00:20:01,073 But we're faced with those types of things as well with clients who, they bought a puppy and it never took it to the vet and it didn't get any vaccines and it gets parvovirus. 191 00:20:01,073 --> 00:20:06,477 You know, they bring it to the clinic and parvovirus is a devastating disease. 192 00:20:06,477 --> 00:20:11,161 It kills puppies if they haven't been vaccinated before they are exposed. 193 00:20:11,161 --> 00:20:15,104 you know, I've had clients who say, uh like, just euthanize it. 194 00:20:15,104 --> 00:20:16,556 I'll just go get another puppy. 195 00:20:16,556 --> 00:20:17,186 It's cheaper. 196 00:20:17,186 --> 00:20:30,296 um And then, you know, we're left as a veterinarian with a puppy that we're either having to euthanize or, you know, if we can save it, do we spend our own money on that puppy? 197 00:20:30,781 --> 00:20:37,361 Do we spend the clinic's money, a clinic that has to continue to pay its staff and stay open? 198 00:20:37,361 --> 00:20:56,892 And so that's a huge ethical issue, I think, for vets is how do we cope with having to lose patients whose owners can't afford care or don't want to pay for care? 199 00:20:56,892 --> 00:21:03,395 when we're the ones that are essentially going to be ending that animal's life, that can take a huge toll. 200 00:21:03,395 --> 00:21:05,852 So how do you cope with it? 201 00:21:05,852 --> 00:21:07,985 Like how do you cope with the job? 202 00:21:08,127 --> 00:21:10,815 Do you have rituals of any sort? 203 00:21:10,815 --> 00:21:18,489 So I think that resiliency and self-care is a work in progress for me. 204 00:21:18,489 --> 00:21:23,162 I've been out of a while. 205 00:21:23,162 --> 00:21:26,143 I've been out almost 15 years from vet school. 206 00:21:26,143 --> 00:21:33,328 um I have yet to master the art of work-life balance. 207 00:21:33,328 --> 00:21:35,799 And I'm pretty far away from it, I think. 208 00:21:35,799 --> 00:21:39,761 But um I think people cope. 209 00:21:39,761 --> 00:21:49,827 in different ways, but I think that is one of the issues with the suicide rate in veterinary medicine or the burnout rate or compassion fatigue rate is, you know, like what 210 00:21:49,827 --> 00:21:54,230 really honestly keeps me going is the relationships that I have with my clients. 211 00:21:54,230 --> 00:22:06,377 Like I could never practice ER medicine because I don't think that I could emotionally cope with just seeing clients like all night long on my shift that. 212 00:22:06,377 --> 00:22:14,730 are either yelling at me or sobbing or going through all of these emotions and have like no relationship to kind of feedback from. 213 00:22:14,730 --> 00:22:22,894 Whereas, you know, a lot of my clients, since I'm, you I have an established practice, I am seeing a lot of clients who I've known for a long time. 214 00:22:22,894 --> 00:22:26,195 um I'm seeing a lot of new clients that have been referred to me. 215 00:22:26,195 --> 00:22:35,959 So that really, for me, is where I kind of draw my strengths, knowing that I, you know, that I have these relationships and these um 216 00:22:36,169 --> 00:22:39,211 I guess these people who depend on me but also support me as well. 217 00:22:39,211 --> 00:22:51,347 I've become friends with a lot of my clients who I've seen for a long time and I think many of them are amazing and wonderful people and that for me is where I draw most of my 218 00:22:51,347 --> 00:22:55,249 um strength from I guess as a practitioner. 219 00:22:55,249 --> 00:22:58,851 But I do work insanely long hours. 220 00:22:58,851 --> 00:23:04,294 I generally don't have time to go to the bathroom or drink water during the day. 221 00:23:04,294 --> 00:23:06,075 Self care is not really... 222 00:23:06,143 --> 00:23:15,025 uh an easy thing because if I take 10 minutes to drink water and go to the bathroom, my client is waiting 10 minutes, you know, and back-to-back appointments. 223 00:23:15,025 --> 00:23:25,228 um And I think that's something that a lot of veterinarians, know, and vet techs end up, you know, suffering from is just lack of self-care. 224 00:23:25,228 --> 00:23:30,740 But a lot of times it's kind of a more global issue in veterinary medicine. 225 00:23:30,740 --> 00:23:34,541 It's not necessarily that we're not wanting to take care of ourselves. 226 00:23:34,541 --> 00:23:36,221 It's that, you know, 227 00:23:36,627 --> 00:23:43,450 We feel guilty if we can't fit that patient in that wants to be seen during our lunch, what would be our lunchtime? 228 00:23:43,450 --> 00:23:51,954 Or this cat that we saw a couple of days ago is not doing well and we have to squeeze them in at the end of the day or we feel like we need to do that. 229 00:23:51,954 --> 00:23:58,717 um And so I think there is a balance and I think some people are better at setting boundaries than others. 230 00:23:58,717 --> 00:24:02,818 um I don't know if for me if that's, know. 231 00:24:02,818 --> 00:24:04,439 uh 232 00:24:04,499 --> 00:24:15,889 for me, honestly, at this point in my career, it would be a little bit harder for me emotionally to refuse to see some of those cases versus feel like I'm, you know, taking 233 00:24:15,889 --> 00:24:17,620 the lunch that I needed for self care. 234 00:24:17,620 --> 00:24:25,456 Like I think I would be sitting there thinking about that dog or that cat for my whole lunch and I wouldn't enjoy it and then I would just squeeze them in at the end of the day. 235 00:24:25,577 --> 00:24:30,281 But it depends on, you know, the vet and the hospital. 236 00:24:30,281 --> 00:24:32,809 And I mean, I think things 237 00:24:32,809 --> 00:24:38,361 There's a lot more awareness now oh of mental health in veterinary medicine. 238 00:24:38,502 --> 00:24:46,585 there's a uh Facebook group that I think a lot of veterinarians are a part of that's called Not One More Vet. 239 00:24:46,585 --> 00:24:59,281 And it's support network for veterinarians who are going through mental health issues or having a terrible day or need to vent about something with other veterinarians who 240 00:24:59,281 --> 00:25:00,062 understand. 241 00:25:00,062 --> 00:25:06,460 I think resources are much more readily available than they used to be for veterinarians. 242 00:25:06,460 --> 00:25:12,569 But yeah, self-care is a hard thing, I think, in a lot of professions. 243 00:25:12,569 --> 00:25:20,189 Well, and it strikes me and Scott might actually or Scott, know we'll have some insight into this as a former pastor. 244 00:25:20,349 --> 00:25:32,309 You know, when you said like you, you're involved in such emotions with your community and you get some support from them, but it's not really like an equal thing. 245 00:25:32,309 --> 00:25:39,905 And so there must be, you know, Scott, I don't know if you can speak to this, like a level of it that does you good. 246 00:25:39,905 --> 00:25:47,632 because you really are engaged in true community and true connection, but at the same time, if you can't turn off. 247 00:25:47,632 --> 00:25:54,357 Yeah, and I think what Joe described is speaking beautifully to what you touched on earlier. 248 00:25:54,357 --> 00:26:07,628 And that's this commitment that those of us who sign up for these service oriented positions where you're serving a community, this larger mission, right? 249 00:26:07,628 --> 00:26:17,048 And we talk a lot about this, this commitment to the mission that we are is sort of ingrained into our psyche. 250 00:26:17,048 --> 00:26:20,331 as someone who wants to serve, someone wants to help. 251 00:26:20,331 --> 00:26:28,036 But an analogy that I often use was the fable of the goose that laid the golden egg, right? 252 00:26:28,036 --> 00:26:34,281 At some point, there is a lack of return on investment. 253 00:26:34,281 --> 00:26:43,494 And if you continue giving and giving and giving, and nobody is putting back into you, then you're setting yourself up for problems. 254 00:26:43,494 --> 00:26:56,518 And I think a larger conversation that we could also address here is that those of us who have been born and raised in the United States or are laboring under what capitalism looks 255 00:26:56,518 --> 00:27:12,512 like now in our nation and around the world, there is this uh unspoken idea that working yourself to death is a noble thing to do. 256 00:27:12,615 --> 00:27:25,258 that pursuing more money, that giving of yourself in more hours, more time, more investment, you know, those of us in the United States chasing the unachievable American 257 00:27:25,258 --> 00:27:30,309 dream, that is baked into our identity. 258 00:27:30,330 --> 00:27:39,738 And if we aren't doing that, or if we take a day off, or if we self-care, or take a moment for ourselves, 259 00:27:39,738 --> 00:27:54,676 we feel guilty because not only are we going against our passion or what we might define as our calling, but there's the larger expectation of capitalism that says, no, you were 260 00:27:54,896 --> 00:27:58,758 born to consume and to produce. 261 00:27:58,758 --> 00:28:05,222 And in order to continue consuming, then you've got to produce something or you've got to make money. 262 00:28:05,222 --> 00:28:09,050 You've got to achieve this unachievable dream. 263 00:28:09,050 --> 00:28:14,863 And it's just, you know, it's a hamster wheel that we're all caught in this loop. 264 00:28:14,863 --> 00:28:21,315 And uh I certainly agree with you, Joe, as a pastor, I felt the same way, right? 265 00:28:21,315 --> 00:28:22,886 I wanted to work harder. 266 00:28:22,886 --> 00:28:24,487 I wanted to achieve more. 267 00:28:24,487 --> 00:28:27,728 I wanted to do more for the folks that I was serving. 268 00:28:28,048 --> 00:28:32,050 But in the end, right, I just ended up burning myself out. 269 00:28:32,050 --> 00:28:37,363 And I'm sure that's what a lot of people in veterinarian medicine or other professions feel. 270 00:28:37,363 --> 00:28:38,293 Yeah, absolutely. 271 00:28:38,293 --> 00:28:39,644 mean, I think there are a lot. 272 00:28:39,644 --> 00:28:49,826 I mean, that is one of the reasons why we do have essentially a shortage of veterinarians, you know, in this in this country compared to the animal population. 273 00:28:49,826 --> 00:28:58,479 You know, COVID particularly, as I think many people know, a lot of people adopted or got animals during COVID. 274 00:28:58,479 --> 00:29:06,251 You know, they were sort of stuck at home and felt like, this would be a great time to adopt a puppy or to, you know, to get a new dog. 275 00:29:06,251 --> 00:29:07,671 uh 276 00:29:07,911 --> 00:29:18,897 And at the same time, you know, we still had the same numbers of veterinarians also working in, you know, in clinics where we were, you know, along with other healthcare 277 00:29:18,897 --> 00:29:27,121 professionals were some of the only people really like, you know, out at our jobs full time seeing curbside appointments. 278 00:29:27,121 --> 00:29:34,765 You know, we were stuck in one exam room with our tech for the entire day, basically shuttling animals back and forth to their cars. 279 00:29:35,766 --> 00:29:37,567 And that was a really 280 00:29:37,951 --> 00:29:40,751 harrowing experience for a lot of veterinarians, think. 281 00:29:40,751 --> 00:29:42,891 It was extremely stressful. 282 00:29:42,891 --> 00:29:47,191 You were communicating with clients basically on their phones from the parking lot. 283 00:29:47,291 --> 00:29:51,071 And a lot of people burned out during that period of time. 284 00:29:51,371 --> 00:29:58,342 People were having to wait long times for appointments because there was a shortage and we were doing the best we could. 285 00:29:58,342 --> 00:30:01,220 yeah, there are a lot of people that... 286 00:30:01,220 --> 00:30:16,371 just said like I can't do this anymore or I'm going to work from home or go into industry or just stop practicing um during that time just because it was, that was a hugely 287 00:30:16,371 --> 00:30:18,185 difficult experience I think. 288 00:30:18,185 --> 00:30:24,369 Joe, can you talk a little bit about the cost that's involved in veterinarian medicine? 289 00:30:24,369 --> 00:30:36,698 uh I'm just thinking about oh what happens in uh human medicine with everything that's around insurance companies, things of that nature. 290 00:30:36,698 --> 00:30:39,620 What drives cost in veterinarian medicine? 291 00:30:39,620 --> 00:30:47,099 Does it parallel what we see uh in the human medical profession or are there different factors? 292 00:30:47,099 --> 00:30:50,224 at play, speaking of American capitalism, right? 293 00:30:50,224 --> 00:30:51,021 Yeah 294 00:30:51,033 --> 00:30:57,675 kind of depend on the market that you're in, like in terms of the cost of operating a hospital, for example. 295 00:30:57,675 --> 00:31:01,526 So, you know, there are different forms of veterinary clinics. 296 00:31:01,526 --> 00:31:02,956 There are mobile clinics. 297 00:31:02,956 --> 00:31:05,357 There are brick and mortar hospitals. 298 00:31:05,357 --> 00:31:18,221 oh I do think that, you know, property ownership and the cost of, you know, just maintaining electricity and maintaining a building and a hospital along with equipment 299 00:31:18,221 --> 00:31:19,341 certainly 300 00:31:19,341 --> 00:31:32,461 drive costs, um we're usually using, in addition to being able to run in-house labs, we're using outside laboratories and those costs of outside testing are kind of constantly 301 00:31:32,461 --> 00:31:33,251 changing. 302 00:31:33,251 --> 00:31:44,369 um Surgery costs, you're looking at suture, you're looking at surgery packs, autoclaving and sterilizing all of your surgical gowns and your surgical equipment, which takes tech 303 00:31:44,369 --> 00:31:44,980 time. 304 00:31:44,980 --> 00:31:47,063 um And I think payroll is... 305 00:31:47,063 --> 00:31:59,130 you know, like in many professions, one of the biggest, you know, biggest factors, but at the same time, you know, veterinary professionals, including our, you know, amazing 306 00:31:59,130 --> 00:32:12,969 assistants who work their butts off just like we do, our technicians, you know, do not get paid well uh across the board, you know, compared to like a human nurse or a human doctor. 307 00:32:14,153 --> 00:32:26,861 we're making significantly less where even here in New Orleans, some of the starting assistant jobs are making less than if you started as a waiter in a restaurant um in the 308 00:32:26,861 --> 00:32:28,382 service industry. 309 00:32:28,522 --> 00:32:34,666 And yet you're a skilled professional that's going to be caring for people's animals. 310 00:32:34,666 --> 00:32:39,479 um And I think it depends on if you're in a... 311 00:32:39,747 --> 00:32:51,805 privately owned like small practice versus a corporate practice, um you know, how much control you have as like a veterinarian owner versus like just an associate veterinarian 312 00:32:51,805 --> 00:32:54,907 on the pay that the staff, you know, receives. 313 00:32:54,907 --> 00:33:05,177 um But when I hear, you know, someone say like, well, I know by, you know, taking my dog here, I've paid, you know, to put all of your kids through. 314 00:33:05,177 --> 00:33:06,237 college. 315 00:33:06,437 --> 00:33:12,928 Well, no, actually, you know, we still can't pay off our student loans because we're, we're in so much debt. 316 00:33:12,928 --> 00:33:23,628 But it really, it really is one of those things where I think when people truly see what the cost is, you know, if I have to do a major surgery on a dog, you know, say I have to 317 00:33:23,628 --> 00:33:34,288 do an emergency splenectomy, you're probably looking at about $3,000 at the practice that I'm in for, you know, emergency treatment. 318 00:33:34,558 --> 00:33:39,490 open abdominal surgery where we have multiple technicians working on the animal. 319 00:33:39,490 --> 00:33:41,351 I'm scrubbed in with another assistant. 320 00:33:41,351 --> 00:33:51,515 um The animal is getting pain management, IV fluids, continuous blood pressure and ECG monitoring and multiple days in the hospital, maybe a blood transfusion. 321 00:33:51,515 --> 00:34:03,884 um Compare that to, I had a very minor procedure that took about five minutes um at our local hospital that was very quick in and out anesthesia. 322 00:34:03,884 --> 00:34:16,179 um Last year and the amount billed to my insurance was $33,000 for um I mean that was an open abdominal surgery I certainly was not in the hospital, know for more than like half a 323 00:34:16,179 --> 00:34:29,105 day from going to the hospital to leaving um and I think because of you know, and I'm not an expert on the cost in human medicine, but um I think that people have sort of a very 324 00:34:29,105 --> 00:34:32,812 skewed view of what things actually cost what 325 00:34:32,812 --> 00:34:45,983 you know, what it costs to pay for the hospital, what it costs to pay for, you know, staffing and sort of the actual items that you're using for a procedure. 326 00:34:45,983 --> 00:34:49,614 And so when they hear $3,000, that sounds like a lot. 327 00:34:49,614 --> 00:34:59,794 But in pretty much every venue that I know of in veterinary medicine, everyone is trying to keep costs down as much as we possibly can because we want to treat our patients. 328 00:34:59,850 --> 00:35:12,770 And when you look at the cost of that emergency surgery, that's a life-saving surgery that we can do for $3,000 compared to $33,000 for a very quick five-minute procedure in human 329 00:35:12,770 --> 00:35:28,201 medicine, it's really amazing to me sometimes that we get so much shock and awe at the cost of some of the procedures that we do. 330 00:35:28,201 --> 00:35:28,461 Yeah. 331 00:35:28,461 --> 00:35:32,183 And a lot of that is tied to factors beyond your control, right? 332 00:35:32,183 --> 00:35:48,119 It goes to the larger conversation that we're having in this nation about cost and capitalism and people at the bottom, often bearing the brunt of the benefits of those at 333 00:35:48,119 --> 00:35:49,209 the top. 334 00:35:49,690 --> 00:35:53,771 Sort of related to what you just had to say, just something I'm curious about. 335 00:35:53,771 --> 00:35:57,959 Obviously, pets have shorter lifespans than 336 00:35:57,959 --> 00:36:03,612 us humans, but we can get very attached to our pets. 337 00:36:03,672 --> 00:36:16,129 And I imagine that sometimes you have to have as a vet, those quality of life conversations with the pet owner, because it seems like increasingly because of the 338 00:36:16,129 --> 00:36:26,857 quality and the advances in veterinarian science, I imagine that there are a lot of times where the pet owner wants to keep the animal alive, but 339 00:36:26,857 --> 00:36:29,305 the animal doesn't really have a quality of life. 340 00:36:29,305 --> 00:36:32,818 What does that look like for you in your profession? 341 00:36:32,818 --> 00:36:46,661 that I mean that is something that we have to do day in and day out is have quality of life discussions with our clients and oh you know I I do think that one of the things that 342 00:36:46,661 --> 00:36:54,248 is very different in veterinary medicine than in other you know health care professions is 343 00:36:54,536 --> 00:37:03,040 I mean, we, I think, have kind of a shifting view of euthanasia and their horror of death as we move through our practice. 344 00:37:03,220 --> 00:37:12,785 And I think that we come to recognize euthanasia as a way to prevent or relieve suffering in our patients. 345 00:37:12,785 --> 00:37:17,917 And that can be contrary to people's religious views. 346 00:37:17,917 --> 00:37:23,649 It can be contrary to what they think in their minds that they want for their pets. 347 00:37:24,470 --> 00:37:31,630 And so, quality of life, I think, for any treatments that we offer in veterinary medicine is paramount. 348 00:37:31,630 --> 00:37:44,570 So whether we're offering chemotherapy to treat cancer or something that's ailing a pet, the ultimate goal is to maintain 100 % quality of life. 349 00:37:44,570 --> 00:37:48,201 And when you get to the point where you can't do that anymore, 350 00:37:48,201 --> 00:37:54,101 think it's very difficult as a veterinarian to talk about hospice, right? 351 00:37:54,101 --> 00:38:03,912 Like we sort of envision with humans if you don't have the ability to obviously elect euthanasia, which most of us don't. 352 00:38:03,912 --> 00:38:17,608 Because I think we can see that in animals, a natural death is scary, it's confusing, it can be uncomfortable, and it can be very hard as veterinarians to 353 00:38:18,032 --> 00:38:20,913 care for a pet who's going through the process of dying. 354 00:38:20,913 --> 00:38:36,300 um And it can be very difficult to cope with sort of the emotions that we feel not being able to relieve a patient of their suffering if a client is not inclined to pursue 355 00:38:36,300 --> 00:38:37,080 euthanasia. 356 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:46,844 um So I think that can be one of the really challenging things in our profession is we might see a patient suffering and feel 357 00:38:47,610 --> 00:38:50,662 potentially the opposite of our pet owners. 358 00:38:50,662 --> 00:38:55,456 And I think all of us do try to support our pet owners as best we can. 359 00:38:55,456 --> 00:39:08,675 But um I do think in many cases, if we're talking about euthanasia, that there's something that we're seeing that makes us want to move at least to discussing it. 360 00:39:08,907 --> 00:39:19,707 And kind of, I guess it's like the flip side question of when people, when there's nothing wrong with an animal, but people want you to euthanize it. 361 00:39:19,707 --> 00:39:22,450 Do you, do you have to do that? 362 00:39:22,450 --> 00:39:24,452 Is it like owner's choice? 363 00:39:24,452 --> 00:39:27,835 Are you able as the bet to say you don't want to be part of that? 364 00:39:27,835 --> 00:39:30,498 Like, what is that process like? 365 00:39:30,498 --> 00:39:40,124 So that's incredibly challenging and I think, I have not encountered that many times in my career. 366 00:39:40,124 --> 00:39:53,752 I do think that sometimes people, um when requesting euthanasia, feel like there's no other way or they feel like they can't take care of their pet but they don't want it to 367 00:39:53,752 --> 00:39:56,778 end up in a sheltering uh situation. 368 00:39:56,778 --> 00:39:58,234 um 369 00:39:58,522 --> 00:40:06,228 I will say that most veterinarians do everything we possibly can to avoid euthanizing an otherwise healthy animal. 370 00:40:06,469 --> 00:40:16,437 We do have to perform behavioral euthanasias and that is something that I think is also emotionally challenging. 371 00:40:16,437 --> 00:40:25,594 But at the same time, of our duties as veterinarians is to protect the public and to protect public health. 372 00:40:25,594 --> 00:40:28,026 If we have patients that are 373 00:40:28,226 --> 00:40:37,266 you know, biting, you know, scary, non-handleable by their owners that we've tried, you know, a lot of things to help. 374 00:40:37,266 --> 00:40:42,017 There are situations where behavioral euthanasias are unfortunately appropriate. 375 00:40:42,017 --> 00:40:48,768 And, you know, I think especially this day and age when we have so many animals being euthanized in animal shelters. 376 00:40:48,768 --> 00:40:52,799 I mean, I think the most recent statistics were almost a million animals. 377 00:40:52,799 --> 00:40:55,190 in the US being euthanized in shelters every year. 378 00:40:55,190 --> 00:41:00,272 um And many of those are highly adoptable animals. 379 00:41:00,272 --> 00:41:01,553 There just isn't enough space. 380 00:41:01,553 --> 00:41:05,234 There's not enough rescues or enough fosters. 381 00:41:05,234 --> 00:41:10,316 And so it's horrible for the individual animal. 382 00:41:10,316 --> 00:41:20,220 But in that situation, can you ask a rescue to take on a patient or a pet who is an aggressive animal and try to rehab them? 383 00:41:20,220 --> 00:41:21,805 uh 384 00:41:21,805 --> 00:41:28,567 veterinarians, we have to make that call sometimes to say like, you know, I don't think there's anyone else that can take on this pet. 385 00:41:28,567 --> 00:41:37,209 um The other flip side to that is, you know, you have a client come in with a dog who has epilepsy, for example. 386 00:41:37,209 --> 00:41:42,110 um I encountered this when I was in vet school at a hospital where I worked. 387 00:41:42,110 --> 00:41:52,013 um A client brought in an extremely giant breed dog that was having seizures and was biting when he was uh post-ictal. 388 00:41:52,465 --> 00:42:00,129 They did not have the money to be able to treat his epilepsy and they came in requesting euthanasia, which the vet did not feel comfortable with. 389 00:42:00,129 --> 00:42:08,614 The client then proceeded to say that they would take the dog into the parking lot and shoot it in the head um if she didn't euthanize the dog. 390 00:42:08,834 --> 00:42:15,598 And so she euthanized the dog because it was a kinder death than, you know, the owner shooting it in the parking lot. 391 00:42:15,598 --> 00:42:21,221 And I don't know if that would have actually happened, but those are the things that we're faced with, you know, on a 392 00:42:21,265 --> 00:42:34,319 unfortunately frequent basis, you know, is it kinder for us to offer this euthanasia if we can't find any other options because I think the alternative, if that's what the owner 393 00:42:34,319 --> 00:42:42,825 wants, is the dog getting thrown out of a car on the highway or let go in the middle of the bayou or you know, like I mean, whatever. 394 00:42:42,825 --> 00:42:47,892 I mean, we find animals in garbage bags on the side of the road sometimes. 395 00:42:48,053 --> 00:42:49,461 So it... 396 00:42:49,461 --> 00:43:02,344 It is a difficult thing, but I think sometimes we will perform those euthanasias because we don't have any viable alternatives. 397 00:43:02,344 --> 00:43:15,708 I think what your experiences have taught us along with what we talk about frequently on this program is that all of us, regardless of our profession, we can be susceptible to 398 00:43:15,708 --> 00:43:18,688 these cultic tendencies. 399 00:43:18,688 --> 00:43:28,391 And so I'm wondering if you had the opportunity to speak to your younger self or to speak to an aspiring veterinarian. 400 00:43:28,467 --> 00:43:33,530 What kinds of things would you tell them as far as self care, things of that nature? 401 00:43:33,851 --> 00:43:48,212 What kind of advice would you give them if they're going into your profession to sort of uh avoid becoming a uh cult member, right, in veterinarian or whatever profession they 402 00:43:48,212 --> 00:43:49,154 might choose? 403 00:43:49,154 --> 00:44:03,294 hard because I do feel like it's so ingrained in veterinary medicine, you know, and I will say I think that some of the younger veterinarians coming up are, you know, they're 404 00:44:03,294 --> 00:44:10,574 getting more access to sort of prep work and vet school on like how do you take care of yourself? 405 00:44:10,574 --> 00:44:12,045 How do you avoid burnout? 406 00:44:12,045 --> 00:44:13,793 What are some... 407 00:44:13,793 --> 00:44:21,748 you know, sort of boundaries that you need to set before you even sign a contract with a veterinary hospital um as a new vet. 408 00:44:21,748 --> 00:44:33,917 And I think that a lot of those, you know, younger veterinarians are better advocating for themselves when it comes to workload, when it comes to work hours and the expectations 409 00:44:33,917 --> 00:44:34,697 going into it. 410 00:44:34,697 --> 00:44:43,293 Now, I don't know if that translates necessarily into a better work environment, because again, I think that the people who 411 00:44:43,423 --> 00:44:47,778 want to become veterinarians and who get into vet school and become veterinarians. 412 00:44:47,778 --> 00:44:52,744 um I think we all have a fairly similar sort of profile. 413 00:44:52,744 --> 00:44:56,618 know, we're, um we are perfectionists. 414 00:44:56,618 --> 00:45:04,436 We do have some of these sort of characteristics that I think make us more likely to fall into the, into that trap. 415 00:45:05,314 --> 00:45:17,574 Well, and it's also something we just see very often in the United States with many people that we talk to where it's like, you're still just counseling the individual to do their 416 00:45:17,574 --> 00:45:22,914 best to try to protect themselves against the institutional culture. 417 00:45:22,914 --> 00:45:30,219 And there's no ever any addressing of the institutional culture being problematic. 418 00:45:30,219 --> 00:45:31,649 Yeah, yeah. 419 00:45:31,830 --> 00:45:32,620 No, you're right. 420 00:45:32,620 --> 00:45:40,393 And I mean, I think as much as we might try, you know, we are in a helping profession. 421 00:45:40,393 --> 00:45:46,192 And I think, you know, that in and of itself makes it challenging to turn off. 422 00:45:46,192 --> 00:45:51,405 um Like you said, when you are, you know, a pastor, um it's really hard to say no. 423 00:45:51,405 --> 00:45:52,855 It's very hard to say no. 424 00:45:52,855 --> 00:45:56,885 um But I do think that, you know, 425 00:45:56,885 --> 00:46:05,725 For people who are thinking about going to vet school, I do think it's a good idea to work in a veterinary clinic before you commit. 426 00:46:05,725 --> 00:46:13,925 Make sure that you understand at least the basic mechanics of working in a veterinary hospital. 427 00:46:13,925 --> 00:46:26,545 In vet school, take advantage of the resources and the courses or even little extra things that you can do to try to train yourself to be resilient. 428 00:46:26,857 --> 00:46:28,048 have that self-care. 429 00:46:28,048 --> 00:46:31,601 And you know we can't fix everything. 430 00:46:31,601 --> 00:46:41,050 I think as you know as veterinarians we want to fix everything and it's it's we want to fix our clients, we want to fix our patients, we don't ever want to feel like we failed 431 00:46:41,050 --> 00:46:51,820 and ultimately we can't be the you know everything to everyone and that's that's challenging to accept I think sometimes. 432 00:46:52,990 --> 00:46:56,133 Well, I mean, this is also a common trend that we have. 433 00:46:56,133 --> 00:46:57,603 of places. 434 00:46:57,823 --> 00:47:09,707 And, you know, I remember something that was really helpful to me that a boss told me once was like, you, First Lieutenant Mastinac are not going to solve all the world's problems, 435 00:47:09,707 --> 00:47:17,089 you know, and this kind of like, idea that it's actually kind of ego to think like you're going to fix all the stuff. 436 00:47:17,089 --> 00:47:25,551 And even even when you're in these helping professions where you do like see the help that you're doing every day for people. 437 00:47:25,551 --> 00:47:33,324 but you, I think a little bit of reminding yourself, and this is one of the things we see with cults, right? 438 00:47:33,324 --> 00:47:38,976 Like every cult tells you you're special, you're saving the world, you're changing everything. 439 00:47:39,017 --> 00:47:48,921 And when you're in these jobs where you are one piece of a system, I think it is really important for our mental health to remind ourselves sometimes, like the world is not gonna 440 00:47:48,921 --> 00:47:55,063 collapse if Joe doesn't squeeze that patient in, you know, like. 441 00:47:55,171 --> 00:47:58,894 There's a whole system involved here and you're just a piece of it. 442 00:47:58,894 --> 00:48:00,745 think that's really important to remember. 443 00:48:00,745 --> 00:48:11,525 I have a dear friend who's a veterinarian whose dad just passed away sadly and she is really struggling with not going back to work yet. 444 00:48:11,905 --> 00:48:13,905 And I said, you need to take care of yourself. 445 00:48:13,905 --> 00:48:15,265 They will figure things out. 446 00:48:15,265 --> 00:48:17,296 They'll figure things out. 447 00:48:17,296 --> 00:48:21,007 But I will say, as a pet owner, 448 00:48:21,007 --> 00:48:28,918 I think how we behave as clients in a veterinary practice really does make a huge difference. 449 00:48:28,918 --> 00:48:36,398 From the receptionists, our client service staff, just being kind to people. 450 00:48:36,598 --> 00:48:39,589 We all love our animals and we're all worried about them. 451 00:48:39,589 --> 00:48:42,629 And we're worried about your animals too. 452 00:48:42,709 --> 00:48:48,119 So I think just being kind and understanding if we... 453 00:48:48,119 --> 00:48:54,555 you know, just had a hit by car come in and you're here for a puppy visit and end up having to wait 15 minutes. 454 00:48:54,555 --> 00:49:07,618 um You know, being understanding in that situation, it is a very difficult profession and I can't even express how much of a difference it makes when people are just kind and 455 00:49:07,618 --> 00:49:08,288 understanding. 456 00:49:08,288 --> 00:49:09,000 oh 457 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:18,010 And I think this conversation is illustrative of the larger issues that we're feeling, that all of us are feeling right now. 458 00:49:18,010 --> 00:49:30,005 It just seems to me, and perhaps this is nostalgia talking, but it seems to me that in past decades, um a profession like veterinarianism 459 00:49:30,005 --> 00:49:43,066 being a pastor even, some of those professions were protected from the institutional cultural influences, but now it feels like the world is shrinking and there's a lot more 460 00:49:43,066 --> 00:49:44,677 pressure, right? 461 00:49:45,078 --> 00:49:49,171 Whereas in the past, perhaps your job was an escape from the world. 462 00:49:49,171 --> 00:49:59,325 You were serving people, you were helping people, but now, you know, the larger, the meta-cults or the institutional influences that Daniela is speaking of. 463 00:49:59,325 --> 00:50:11,004 All of that is being brought to bear so that you're feeling it in a profession like veterinarian medicine, which really, if you think about it, right, you're serving people, 464 00:50:11,004 --> 00:50:22,962 you're serving people's pets, you should be immune from those larger stress and anxiety things that are happening in the world. 465 00:50:22,962 --> 00:50:26,536 But unfortunately, it seems that's the world that we're living in right 466 00:50:26,536 --> 00:50:41,056 And this to me was also just a good reminder of how much I think even like professions, a uniform, titles are all things which are like dehumanizing, right? 467 00:50:41,056 --> 00:50:44,436 They're part of a system and like now you're the veterinarian. 468 00:50:44,436 --> 00:50:51,096 You're not, you know, it feels very different me talking to you sitting here, Joe, you're in my friend's house. 469 00:50:51,096 --> 00:50:54,802 I saw you playing with her dog right before we got on. 470 00:50:54,802 --> 00:50:55,172 Right? 471 00:50:55,172 --> 00:51:00,632 Like very human compared to the sterile office, you know? 472 00:51:00,632 --> 00:51:03,870 And this to me just has just been interesting. 473 00:51:03,870 --> 00:51:09,715 And it made me like stop and be like, huh, how often do I think of veterinarians as humans? 474 00:51:09,715 --> 00:51:11,689 Which is like literally almost never. 475 00:51:11,689 --> 00:51:17,092 I don't have a close friend that's a veterinarian and that's a transactional thing. 476 00:51:17,092 --> 00:51:17,830 I... 477 00:51:17,830 --> 00:51:25,748 I kind of love this right now, know, as Scott was saying that like everything in our world feels like it's blowing up and moving at a faster pace. 478 00:51:25,748 --> 00:51:28,842 And just a reminder that like, everyone's a human. 479 00:51:28,842 --> 00:51:34,758 That person you saw might've just euthanized a dog that they've been caring for for 12 years. 480 00:51:34,758 --> 00:51:36,711 And like, you don't know. 481 00:51:36,711 --> 00:51:39,757 to think about, yes, when you go see your veterinarian. 482 00:51:39,879 --> 00:51:43,345 So tell them you love them if you don't mind. 483 00:51:43,758 --> 00:51:53,577 Well, Joe, that's been, what you've had to say has been very helpful to all of us and we appreciate you sharing your experiences with us. 484 00:51:53,577 --> 00:51:55,789 And I think that's a timely reminder, right? 485 00:51:55,789 --> 00:52:04,397 That all of us are living in the same uh difficult world and we all uh would do well to be kinder to one another. 486 00:52:04,397 --> 00:52:05,578 So thank you. 487 00:52:05,856 --> 00:52:06,492 Agreed. 488 00:52:06,492 --> 00:52:08,295 Thank you guys so much for having me. 489 00:52:08,295 --> 00:52:13,375 Thanks Joe, this has been such a wonderful conversation. 490 00:52:13,375 --> 00:52:25,893 I would love to remind everybody that Scott Lloyd has a new book out and I believe that the audio book is out, which you know you wanna hear with his rumbling deep radio voice. 491 00:52:25,893 --> 00:52:32,419 oh So check out The God I Was Given, Finding, sorry Scott, what's the subtitle? 492 00:52:32,438 --> 00:52:34,900 looking for faith after losing my religion. 493 00:52:34,900 --> 00:52:36,560 But thank you for the endorsement. 494 00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:37,501 I appreciate that. 495 00:52:37,501 --> 00:52:39,082 Thank you so much. 496 00:52:39,182 --> 00:52:46,727 And you know, it's very timely because I talk about in the book, I talk about being scared as a little kid of the rapture. 497 00:52:46,727 --> 00:52:54,831 And we talk about the origins of the rapture, where those ideas come from, uh and the implications, obviously. 498 00:52:54,831 --> 00:52:59,634 uh If the internet is any judge of things, it is 499 00:52:59,716 --> 00:53:05,864 It is still a conversation starter today and still gets a lot of people's attention. 500 00:53:05,864 --> 00:53:07,155 Yeah, for sure. 501 00:53:07,155 --> 00:53:19,800 uh You know, it's interesting, I was talking about how in some ways, I think it's religious or like group suicidal ideology, because it's like, you've been promised this 502 00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:21,721 cult perfection, right? 503 00:53:21,721 --> 00:53:26,382 And then you realize like, no, the world is flawed and problematic and complicated. 504 00:53:26,382 --> 00:53:28,543 And it's like, oh, let's just check out. 505 00:53:28,543 --> 00:53:34,314 Instead of like, no, we actually have to look at this stuff and fix these systems and pull these apart. 506 00:53:34,314 --> 00:53:35,077 So 507 00:53:35,077 --> 00:53:40,272 You know, it's a little bit in everything and this has been such an illuminating conversation. 508 00:53:40,272 --> 00:53:43,790 Thank you so much, Joe, and thanks everybody for tuning in today. 509 00:53:44,282 --> 00:53:44,932 Absolutely. 510 00:53:44,932 --> 00:53:46,973 Thanks, Joe, and we'll see you soon. 511 00:53:46,973 --> 00:53:50,674 Daniella, thanks always, and thank you to our audience. 512 00:53:50,674 --> 00:53:59,197 Make sure you hit that like and subscribe button and share this with a friend that could benefit from the conversation. 513 00:53:59,197 --> 00:54:02,588 For Daniella Messenek-Young, Knitting Cult Lady, I'm Scott Lloyd. 514 00:54:02,588 --> 00:54:07,311 We'll see you on the next episode of Cults and the Culting of America.