1 00:00:25,758 --> 00:00:28,875 Welcome to Cults and the Culting of America podcast. 2 00:00:28,875 --> 00:00:33,415 name is Scott Lloyd along with knitting cult lady, Daniella Mesteneck Young. 3 00:00:33,415 --> 00:00:35,238 Daniella, it's good to see you. 4 00:00:35,351 --> 00:00:36,488 It's good to see you too. 5 00:00:36,488 --> 00:00:43,523 Awesome, and we're uh actually recording this at a different time because we have a very special guest with us today. 6 00:00:43,523 --> 00:00:46,825 Ruwan, welcome to Cults and the Culting of America. 7 00:00:46,825 --> 00:00:48,276 We're glad that you're here. 8 00:00:48,351 --> 00:00:49,943 Yeah, thanks for having me guys. 9 00:00:50,370 --> 00:00:57,558 Yeah, so tell us a little bit about yourself and a little bit about your background and uh as it relates to our audience. 10 00:00:57,558 --> 00:01:08,510 Of course, we're all about cults and what's happening in our nation, but obviously this is something that is happening, a phenomenon that impacts people around the world. 11 00:01:08,661 --> 00:01:09,131 Totally. 12 00:01:09,131 --> 00:01:10,202 um Yeah. 13 00:01:10,202 --> 00:01:16,496 Most relevant thing is I was in a cult called One Taste 12 and 13 years ago now when I was 24. 14 00:01:16,496 --> 00:01:19,865 I um was based in San Francisco. 15 00:01:19,865 --> 00:01:24,242 I was part of the New York branch as it was coming up. 16 00:01:24,242 --> 00:01:26,373 And it was a very formative time in my life. 17 00:01:26,373 --> 00:01:31,793 I've been pretty vocal about my experience there, the good, the bad, and the ugly since leaving. 18 00:01:31,793 --> 00:01:32,598 you 19 00:01:32,598 --> 00:01:35,863 the big thing in the news is that they were indicted last year. 20 00:01:35,863 --> 00:01:44,998 They were found guilty six months ago and their sentencing is going to happen very shortly unless it gets pushed again, which happens. 21 00:01:44,998 --> 00:01:49,241 Yeah, so tell us a little bit about the particular cult that you were involved with. 22 00:01:49,241 --> 00:01:50,812 What was their pitch? 23 00:01:50,812 --> 00:01:59,428 was their, uh you know, all of these groups, they seem to have a message or a mission that they coalesce around. 24 00:01:59,428 --> 00:02:03,100 So what was it like in your experience? 25 00:02:03,386 --> 00:02:05,427 Yeah, they're called One Taste. 26 00:02:05,427 --> 00:02:07,637 I don't know if I should use past tense or present. 27 00:02:07,637 --> 00:02:20,156 I'm not sure how much they exist right now, um it was a, the storefront part of their business was a wellness, a wellness business focused on female sexuality. 28 00:02:20,156 --> 00:02:21,605 um 29 00:02:21,605 --> 00:02:26,345 The pitch that got me, saw the founders Ted talk in 07 when I was 19. 30 00:02:26,345 --> 00:02:27,925 It had the word orgasm in the title. 31 00:02:27,925 --> 00:02:34,085 So I clicked on it, but it was really about, um, human connection, which was kind of like their psychological funnel. 32 00:02:34,085 --> 00:02:39,185 Like sex is what made you look at it and like click on it or show up to their intro events. 33 00:02:39,185 --> 00:02:45,865 But you know, sex in my, my experience, at least sex while it's very alluring, doesn't really keep people around, right? 34 00:02:45,865 --> 00:02:47,265 It's kind of gets them in the door. 35 00:02:47,265 --> 00:02:51,325 And then the human connection piece, like the more, the deeper parts to it. 36 00:02:51,417 --> 00:02:52,517 are what really touched me. 37 00:02:52,517 --> 00:02:59,199 um And over a series of stages that I can share, like I ended up living with them. 38 00:02:59,199 --> 00:03:08,186 I ended up spending a lot of money that I didn't actually have as a, I was 24 when I actually became engaged with them. 39 00:03:08,326 --> 00:03:10,367 And for two years, that was my life. 40 00:03:10,367 --> 00:03:13,189 I lived in their community house, which was kind of like an ashram. 41 00:03:13,189 --> 00:03:15,463 um I worked for them. 42 00:03:15,463 --> 00:03:17,141 I did their PR things. 43 00:03:17,141 --> 00:03:18,301 I did sales for them. 44 00:03:18,301 --> 00:03:20,052 I did things I'm not proud of. 45 00:03:20,052 --> 00:03:21,353 And that was 46 00:03:21,433 --> 00:03:25,563 where I was until I got pushed out because I didn't want to commit my life to them. 47 00:03:26,704 --> 00:03:29,318 And so how many years or months were you involved with them? 48 00:03:29,318 --> 00:03:30,487 Two years in total. 49 00:03:30,487 --> 00:03:43,002 Something so interesting, I think, to point out here is that I feel like sex is always a part of recruiting in cults, even a lot of times when it's not as obvious as this, right? 50 00:03:43,002 --> 00:03:47,224 Like this was infamously known as the orgasm cult. 51 00:03:47,224 --> 00:03:51,846 I grew up in children of God, which openly used religious prostitution, right? 52 00:03:51,846 --> 00:03:54,647 They called themselves hookers for Christ. 53 00:03:54,747 --> 00:03:59,520 And there was supposedly this time in which it stopped, which was before I was born. 54 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:08,693 But my experience was being hung out all over the world as a sexual lure in many ways from the time I was young. 55 00:04:08,853 --> 00:04:20,698 And I even think that in the military, part of the package of who they pick for recruiting people into their organization has this aspect of a little bit of sexiness implied. 56 00:04:20,698 --> 00:04:24,909 And even the Mormons call it flirt to convert. 57 00:04:25,103 --> 00:04:31,002 and supposedly purity culture, and yet it's always kind of this promise. 58 00:04:31,002 --> 00:04:37,894 oh And then very important, I think, that you point out that that was the lure, and then it's like, but we're so much deeper. 59 00:04:37,894 --> 00:04:46,029 Yeah, yeah, I mean, I've only been in one cult, which happened to be a sex cult, so I can't comment on other cults, but it does seem that, you know, if you have a group of 60 00:04:46,029 --> 00:04:54,234 people whose sole mission is to get more people into the organization, you're use every means necessary and sex sells, right? 61 00:04:54,234 --> 00:04:58,428 There's like, there are few things that are more alluring than sex, so of course it gets used. 62 00:04:58,428 --> 00:05:06,886 In one case, it was used a little bit more overtly, but there was a similar thing too where a lot of the founders' um lessons 63 00:05:06,886 --> 00:05:09,768 being a sex cult came from her time as an escort. 64 00:05:09,768 --> 00:05:17,333 At a certain point when they became more featured in mainstream media, it became a thing where no one was allowed to escort anymore. 65 00:05:17,333 --> 00:05:25,617 For a long time it was an active spiritual practice for certain women to go out and escort, to learn how to open their hearts and also make money. 66 00:05:25,698 --> 00:05:32,682 But then even still after officially no one was allowed to be a sex worker while working for One Taste, uh 67 00:05:32,774 --> 00:05:40,837 the principles still existed and the methods of getting someone attached and to empty their wallets essentially existed using sex. 68 00:05:40,837 --> 00:05:43,720 Wow, it's exactly the same as children of God. 69 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,582 That's just like, that's the updated. 70 00:05:46,582 --> 00:05:57,853 um And I think something important to point out here too is, you know, sex cult is a media definition and the cults are still always about labor, right? 71 00:05:57,853 --> 00:06:01,055 And you implied that you worked for them. 72 00:06:01,176 --> 00:06:02,458 Can you tell us about that? 73 00:06:02,458 --> 00:06:05,889 Yeah, well, just to give context. 74 00:06:05,889 --> 00:06:08,820 So I came in with skepticism. 75 00:06:08,820 --> 00:06:14,892 Every layer, there was a way to like, you know, in sales, you would call it like a trial close, like just try it out. 76 00:06:14,892 --> 00:06:16,562 And before you know it, you're sucked in. 77 00:06:16,562 --> 00:06:18,243 So you can't eject. 78 00:06:18,342 --> 00:06:21,864 And then there's many principles attached to that, sunk cost fallacy and whatnot. 79 00:06:21,864 --> 00:06:25,645 uh at a certain point, maybe six months in, 80 00:06:25,805 --> 00:06:27,527 I saw it as my spiritual practice. 81 00:06:27,527 --> 00:06:29,919 They had helped me a lot in those initial months. 82 00:06:29,919 --> 00:06:37,285 And I always say like, if I had left that six months, it would have been a wildly positive experience because the bad stuff only happened later to me at least. 83 00:06:37,285 --> 00:06:41,480 Um, and I think to most people, and, 84 00:06:41,797 --> 00:06:44,077 So I really wanted to work for them. 85 00:06:44,077 --> 00:06:52,977 Like I saw all of the people who were working for them as like kind of older siblings who are more enlightened than me, who had deeper secrets of how to live life. 86 00:06:52,977 --> 00:06:56,057 They seemed happy and turned on and stuff. 87 00:06:56,157 --> 00:07:04,957 I, and a lot of people would try to prove their worth to work for this organization where we ended up making $2 an hour or something like that. 88 00:07:04,957 --> 00:07:06,677 So that was kind of where my head was at. 89 00:07:06,677 --> 00:07:10,007 Like it would be the greatest thing in my life to like, 90 00:07:10,007 --> 00:07:16,542 in some way, know, volunteer or like, you know, basically commit my life at the time to them. 91 00:07:17,524 --> 00:07:24,139 and at first it was like a huge high because I was one of a handful of people selected for my cohort to actually get to work for them. 92 00:07:24,139 --> 00:07:25,280 was a special privilege. 93 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:26,517 It inflated my ego. 94 00:07:26,517 --> 00:07:32,636 I also felt like I was getting, you know, as in all cults, I felt like I was getting access to deeper truths or secrets. 95 00:07:32,636 --> 00:07:35,099 And in the beginning it was really euphoric. 96 00:07:35,099 --> 00:07:38,309 And actually a lot of my colleagues at the time who were my age, 97 00:07:38,309 --> 00:07:50,660 who actually ended up testifying in the court case recently, many said the same thing in that we felt like we were charged up in their lingoes, charged up with orgasm, which was 98 00:07:50,660 --> 00:07:52,161 like Chi or something. 99 00:07:52,161 --> 00:07:56,745 But part of it was like, we're just like really overstimulated and we were in our early twenties. 100 00:07:56,745 --> 00:08:03,932 So we were able to work, you know, 20 hours a day and still have a smile on our face for a month or so. 101 00:08:03,932 --> 00:08:05,994 And then of course we started crashing. 102 00:08:05,994 --> 00:08:10,196 Um, we were blamed spiritually for the organization, not making money. 103 00:08:10,196 --> 00:08:19,701 I started to see the really underhanded tactics where even at the time, even as a brainwashed member, it's still like put knots in my stomach. 104 00:08:19,701 --> 00:08:30,917 You know, it still made my conscience at least to ring a quiet bell of how they use sex to make sales or how they would use the secrets they got from people about their emotional 105 00:08:30,917 --> 00:08:33,700 vulnerability to drive high ticket sales, et cetera. 106 00:08:33,700 --> 00:08:40,236 When you talk about working for this organization, wonder, you said it was an ego stroke, right? 107 00:08:40,236 --> 00:08:52,597 That you felt like you were selected, you felt like you were special, um but were there specific skill sets that you brought to the organization that you think in retrospect did 108 00:08:52,597 --> 00:08:58,072 differentiate you from the rest, or was it just that they made you to feel that way? 109 00:08:58,072 --> 00:09:00,578 You had a pulse, so you were qualified. 110 00:09:00,578 --> 00:09:07,004 Well, think with, well, there's I think layers to it because not everyone was selected. 111 00:09:07,204 --> 00:09:08,827 So there was something to that. 112 00:09:08,827 --> 00:09:19,778 um Part of the criteria to be selected though, I can say humbly was just how impressionable or suggestible or devoted you were where you didn't question the 113 00:09:19,778 --> 00:09:20,669 organization, right? 114 00:09:20,669 --> 00:09:23,141 And that was even a thing that later on, 115 00:09:23,573 --> 00:09:27,255 when I was like deeper in the organization, I learned how to screen, like, are they compliant? 116 00:09:27,255 --> 00:09:32,117 Are they willing to jump through these random hoops to prove that they're not gonna question the later things? 117 00:09:32,117 --> 00:09:34,358 And so like, on the one hand, there was that. 118 00:09:34,358 --> 00:09:44,402 I did also think, you know, they did specifically hire young, articulate, energetic, motivated people that would be a good face to recruit other people. 119 00:09:44,402 --> 00:09:49,976 And so I do think I did have some qualities, but maybe half of it was just the fact that I was impressionable too. 120 00:09:49,976 --> 00:10:00,273 Well, and this is such a good point because this is one of the stereotypes that people don't realize that they have about cults that I think helps people walk themselves into 121 00:10:00,273 --> 00:10:07,550 cults, which is, well, cults want brainwashed blah, whatever people, right? 122 00:10:07,550 --> 00:10:17,703 No, like, cults want high performers, you know, just the same as any organization that's recruiting you out of college, you know, cults want people, as you said, that are going to 123 00:10:17,703 --> 00:10:26,805 be passionate and young and can just push and push and sort of be high on the organization all of the time. 124 00:10:26,805 --> 00:10:37,668 And cults love people like you and I who are intelligent, presenting, highly articulate, like Scott as well, really passionate, 125 00:10:37,814 --> 00:10:48,935 just as people about ideas, because if they can get you in and brainwashed and in on their message, right, like that's the win. 126 00:10:48,935 --> 00:10:49,795 Yeah. 127 00:10:49,815 --> 00:10:55,857 And like we were even assigned to, they would use the pornographic term fluffer. 128 00:10:55,857 --> 00:11:02,329 Um, like we didn't close the sales, but we would get them people turned on and we were supposed to fluff our demographics. 129 00:11:02,329 --> 00:11:08,600 So like I spoke to young nerds and I was really good at converting young nerds because that was the language I spoke. 130 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:10,001 I knew how to talk to them. 131 00:11:10,001 --> 00:11:16,312 I knew how to, you know, dismantle their objections because they're the ones that I had and I was able to go in deeper. 132 00:11:16,312 --> 00:11:18,634 So I had like a hundred percent. 133 00:11:18,634 --> 00:11:23,490 close rate converting, even the most skeptical nerdy guys because I knew how to speak their language. 134 00:11:23,490 --> 00:11:28,947 And the same thing for the young pretty women and the older women of a certain demographic. 135 00:11:28,947 --> 00:11:31,851 There was always someone for each type of person that came through the door. 136 00:11:31,851 --> 00:11:44,467 As you kept working for this particular organization, when did you start seeing red flags and how did that dismantling or that deconstruction lead to you eventually leaving the 137 00:11:44,467 --> 00:11:45,167 group? 138 00:11:45,552 --> 00:11:54,062 Yeah, I mean, so there was layers to that too, because even in the beginning, and this was before any media pieces had come out, they already had the reputation of being a cult. 139 00:11:54,062 --> 00:11:54,229 a 140 00:11:54,214 --> 00:12:01,581 Yes, at every layer I had a certain level of skepticism or criticism, but then I was in enough of an ambiguous. 141 00:12:01,817 --> 00:12:03,918 feel that I was able to move next. 142 00:12:04,078 --> 00:12:12,562 I'll say that like the really the part where I was like, I'm not going to stay here forever, even though I still considered it as a lot of back and forth in our conflict was 143 00:12:12,562 --> 00:12:20,325 when I was starting to see their sales practices and how when I was entering, it seemed like there were so many coincidences. 144 00:12:20,764 --> 00:12:27,489 because people would say something to me that I was thinking about, or maybe I'd spoken to someone else, but really I didn't realize that all the information about every potential 145 00:12:27,489 --> 00:12:28,980 mark was being shared. 146 00:12:28,980 --> 00:12:36,794 And then I started to see when we were, when, when I was part of the team, we did this, like if someone was sleeping with a certain person, they would have certain secrets and 147 00:12:36,794 --> 00:12:40,998 that would get shared with these other people who would then speak to them in some other context. 148 00:12:40,998 --> 00:12:48,989 And like that felt really weird, even though a part of me also was rationalizing, well, 149 00:12:48,989 --> 00:12:51,369 I've gotten so much from this organization. 150 00:12:51,369 --> 00:12:55,289 Shouldn't we do whatever we can to get other people to have the same experience? 151 00:12:55,329 --> 00:12:58,480 And it was this constant battle in different ways. 152 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:03,851 But like, you know, around seven months in when I was working for them, that was the first set of red flags. 153 00:13:03,851 --> 00:13:07,431 Sometime later, I was still in the community, but not employed by them. 154 00:13:07,431 --> 00:13:14,411 I saw them do these things more aggressively for larger amounts, like seven figure amounts rather than five figure amounts. 155 00:13:14,731 --> 00:13:15,402 And 156 00:13:15,402 --> 00:13:24,171 I essentially decided I wanted to get as much as I can out of my time here, because I was really growing and learning and honestly having a lot of interesting experiences too. 157 00:13:24,171 --> 00:13:29,627 um But I didn't want to commit my life to them, which is why I left when I did. 158 00:13:29,627 --> 00:13:34,193 Honestly, I probably would have stayed a few more years if they didn't force the ultimatum on me. 159 00:13:34,193 --> 00:13:36,241 Can you talk a little bit about what that looked like? 160 00:13:36,241 --> 00:13:38,782 Yeah, so I was working for them for some time. 161 00:13:38,782 --> 00:13:42,432 uh I was fired officially, but I was still in the community. 162 00:13:42,432 --> 00:13:46,264 I was still like a member of the group, even though I wasn't an employee. 163 00:13:46,424 --> 00:13:55,946 And I think because I did have a knack for translating their concepts to the mainstream that didn't make them sound like a crazy cult member. 164 00:13:56,347 --> 00:14:02,388 They would give me like these writing projects, like to translate such and such, write an ebook for them or make a YouTube video. 165 00:14:02,388 --> 00:14:04,309 So I was useful to them. 166 00:14:04,445 --> 00:14:07,787 But every time they would give me a gig, they would want me to then commit my life. 167 00:14:07,787 --> 00:14:10,969 It's like, okay, we gave you 500 bucks for this like 20 hour project. 168 00:14:10,969 --> 00:14:13,171 Now you owe us, you should come commit your life to us. 169 00:14:13,171 --> 00:14:15,672 I'm simplifying, but something like that. 170 00:14:15,853 --> 00:14:26,640 And um my hard line only was like, I'm not going to commit my life because I saw what happened to the people who were there for five, 10 plus years or longer. 171 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:34,415 at some, they just, they just were not what I wanted to be as opposed to, you know, when, when I was entering and I looked up to all these people. 172 00:14:34,664 --> 00:14:46,777 And essentially what was the final straw for me, and because I was in, I think I had a fair bit of influence in the community because I was in their PR stuff and I was in their 173 00:14:46,777 --> 00:14:47,277 media. 174 00:14:47,277 --> 00:14:50,938 uh And I wanted to write a book with the founder. 175 00:14:51,178 --> 00:15:02,261 She said yes, but then the secret, um basically I had to commit my life to them if I was going to be raised in status by having. 176 00:15:02,261 --> 00:15:03,201 uh 177 00:15:03,217 --> 00:15:04,899 my name on a book with her. 178 00:15:04,980 --> 00:15:13,713 And uh the final straw was like, when it came down to, I going to commit my life, even though I was really, these people had become my family, I had to say no. 179 00:15:13,713 --> 00:15:16,997 And therefore I was pushed out because otherwise I'd be a liability. 180 00:15:17,452 --> 00:15:25,546 When you use that terminology, commit your life, I think I know what that means, but in the context of this particular group, what did that entail? 181 00:15:25,959 --> 00:15:32,054 It wasn't like an official thing, but it was something like it was, you were making it clear that you were never leaving. 182 00:15:32,054 --> 00:15:36,277 And there was the terminology of like, this person's a lifer, this person's not. 183 00:15:36,558 --> 00:15:40,761 Usually it would mean that they basically had no money. 184 00:15:40,761 --> 00:15:43,273 So like they had emptied whatever money they had. 185 00:15:43,273 --> 00:15:47,537 So the only thing they could do was continue working for one taste and committing their life. 186 00:15:47,537 --> 00:15:49,609 Like they obviously had no options. 187 00:15:49,609 --> 00:15:54,071 There were some other people who made some other show, whether they had money and they 188 00:15:54,071 --> 00:16:03,794 gave a huge amount to the organization or they somehow declared or they somehow humiliated themselves in a way that was kind of like, you would call it an expensive signal. 189 00:16:03,794 --> 00:16:12,977 they're clearly not faking their devotion because they did something maybe emotionally humiliating or usually was committing some sort of money. 190 00:16:12,977 --> 00:16:20,350 So even though it wasn't official, was clear by context who was never gonna leave, basically. 191 00:16:20,350 --> 00:16:26,233 Yeah, this terminology of lifer is so interesting because of course this is also what we use in the military. 192 00:16:26,233 --> 00:16:40,251 And, you know, as a officer in the army, even though you've only committed for three years or four years or whatever your official commitment was, right, there is this unspoken rule 193 00:16:40,251 --> 00:16:42,392 that you cannot say you're getting out. 194 00:16:42,392 --> 00:16:49,236 Like as soon as you talk about you're going to get out of the military at the end of your current commitment, you are 195 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:55,542 pushed to the side, you you are really like, you told them you were leaving the team. 196 00:16:55,542 --> 00:16:59,843 And I've spoken about this in Culting of America, which is my book that I have coming out. 197 00:16:59,843 --> 00:17:08,615 um And I also just want to point out your language of commit your life, right? 198 00:17:08,615 --> 00:17:18,968 And I think this is the number one way to keep yourself safe from cults is you never commit your life. 199 00:17:19,136 --> 00:17:25,501 to any person, place, thing, idea, right, other than you. 200 00:17:25,862 --> 00:17:28,505 Because that's what cults want from you. 201 00:17:28,505 --> 00:17:31,819 That's what coercive groups want from you, your life. 202 00:17:31,819 --> 00:17:43,279 Yeah, I do want to offer a counterpoint though, because I think in our culture, or maybe just as human beings, there's something feels noble about committing your life to 203 00:17:43,279 --> 00:17:47,299 something beyond you, whether it's a religion or a group or an ideology. 204 00:17:47,299 --> 00:17:56,939 When you have that mission, and I know one taste in probably all cults, pick on that especially in idealistic people, where they want to be selfless, they want to give 205 00:17:56,939 --> 00:17:58,590 themselves to something greater. 206 00:17:58,590 --> 00:18:00,966 because it feels noble or right. 207 00:18:00,966 --> 00:18:04,537 But as you're pointing out, that's exactly what makes someone like that vulnerable. 208 00:18:04,537 --> 00:18:10,289 And that's why I talk about it as a way to keep yourself safe rather than a never ever do it. 209 00:18:10,289 --> 00:18:10,750 Right. 210 00:18:10,750 --> 00:18:17,712 But it's like if you in any space of personal transformation, predators are going to show up. 211 00:18:17,712 --> 00:18:28,627 And so one of the ways to keep yourself safe is to have this like, like whatever you had this little voice that was telling you like, no, I'm not going to go all the way in. 212 00:18:28,627 --> 00:18:30,238 I'm not going to become a lifer. 213 00:18:30,238 --> 00:18:33,870 You know, like listening to that I think is very important. 214 00:18:33,870 --> 00:18:34,437 Totally. 215 00:18:34,437 --> 00:18:47,121 when we talk about these particular concepts beyond the sex to get people in the door for one taste, what were some of the truth that they were endeavoring to communicate to the 216 00:18:47,121 --> 00:18:54,383 world that you said that you sometimes had to translate for the rest of the world so it didn't sound as culty? 217 00:18:54,383 --> 00:19:03,529 Because I think as we talk on this program a lot, there's a common theme and one of the themes you've already touched on and that's 218 00:19:03,529 --> 00:19:11,709 the desire for people to give themselves to something greater, a noble cause, something of that nature. 219 00:19:11,709 --> 00:19:15,149 What did that look like in the language of one taste? 220 00:19:15,460 --> 00:19:19,091 well, their big terminology switch was the word orgasm. 221 00:19:19,091 --> 00:19:28,214 And that was actually, and you could even see like class by class, or like, if you look at their sales funnel, every stage, the word of the word orgasm changes a little bit. 222 00:19:28,214 --> 00:19:37,276 So, um, in their intro class, the very first topic that the teacher would bring up is, the rest of the world uses a male version of orgasm. 223 00:19:37,276 --> 00:19:43,180 And people are thinking of what most people think of an orgasm, but like, the female version of orgasm, which is appealing to, you know, 224 00:19:43,180 --> 00:19:50,445 the feminists in the group or the pro women's rights people in the group ah is, it's not exactly this event that you think. 225 00:19:50,445 --> 00:19:52,727 It's like, it's this state of high sensation. 226 00:19:52,727 --> 00:19:54,848 It's unpredictable the way women are. 227 00:19:54,848 --> 00:19:58,301 like, it's, and it becomes this ambiguous terminology. 228 00:19:58,301 --> 00:20:03,656 And then the deeper you go into the group, the more that word kind of goes crazy. 229 00:20:03,656 --> 00:20:09,096 Basically the word orgasm would become more and more ambiguous and refer to more things, the deeper you went in. 230 00:20:09,096 --> 00:20:14,196 So it goes from being a state of high sensation, which is a small terminological jump. 231 00:20:14,196 --> 00:20:22,136 Like I think most people, okay, the state of orgasm rather than the event of orgasm, but then it becomes kind of like Chi and Chinese medicine is like this thing you could feel 232 00:20:22,136 --> 00:20:23,636 between people. 233 00:20:23,964 --> 00:20:26,492 Thank uh 234 00:20:26,492 --> 00:20:33,754 way of the universe, like, the orgasm told me to do this, like the Tao, and eventually it becomes synonymous with God. 235 00:20:35,154 --> 00:20:44,007 every time the definition would change, it was always brought up kind of facetiously, but then it gets used so many times that you just start thinking like, yeah, the orgasm told 236 00:20:44,007 --> 00:20:45,627 me to do this, and it's not a joke anymore. 237 00:20:45,627 --> 00:20:52,039 And then of course, if you think orgasm is God, then the founder is the Messiah, and that's why people would take whatever she had to say. 238 00:20:52,039 --> 00:20:53,499 ah 239 00:20:53,667 --> 00:20:54,628 But there's actually a lot of that. 240 00:20:54,628 --> 00:21:03,206 That's the big one, but there was a lot of terminology that maybe I can remember one at a time, but it was basically these like repurposing, repurposing of common words to mean 241 00:21:03,206 --> 00:21:12,736 something else that obviously only if you're in, you would understand the thing though, with the salespeople is that many of them forgot the original definition. 242 00:21:12,736 --> 00:21:18,815 So when they were speaking to a mark um or a potential sale, they would use the wrong definition. 243 00:21:18,815 --> 00:21:24,318 So I think my skill or the thing that I brought to the organization that they liked was that I remember the old definition. 244 00:21:24,318 --> 00:21:27,356 would bridge it for new people when selling them something. 245 00:21:27,356 --> 00:21:29,047 Yeah, fascinating. 246 00:21:29,567 --> 00:21:37,352 know, language is such an important part of cults and getting people to learn a new language. 247 00:21:37,692 --> 00:21:44,696 And you explain what you explained there so well was how they use defining a new language, right? 248 00:21:44,696 --> 00:21:45,967 Loaded language, right? 249 00:21:45,967 --> 00:21:54,023 Terms that only people in the group of are going to think of that way to then make it like an orgasm worldview. 250 00:21:54,023 --> 00:22:00,437 And this is something I talk about a lot for people is that cults don't give you necessarily a religion, right? 251 00:22:00,437 --> 00:22:07,150 And the ones that don't seem to be religious can often really hook people, but they're bringing you into this worldview. 252 00:22:07,150 --> 00:22:16,566 And it's always some combination of things that the founder has put together and strung together usually over a lifetime. 253 00:22:16,566 --> 00:22:24,561 Yeah, and actually the founder, part of her origin story was that she was a PhD candidate in general semantics, which is the exact study of this, right? 254 00:22:24,561 --> 00:22:25,872 How language creates reality. 255 00:22:25,872 --> 00:22:30,545 She would quote, quote, out for Krasibski a lot, who was the founder of this field of study. 256 00:22:30,545 --> 00:22:34,570 And for sure, all of this was done intentionally. 257 00:22:34,570 --> 00:22:41,924 And she also, you know, came from, you know, a quote lineage of other cults, Morehouse, S that became Landmark, Scientology. 258 00:22:41,924 --> 00:22:52,109 So, one tastes actually use a lot of science Scientology terms because the founders of the precursor organizations were all friends, apparently in the sixties and they traded 259 00:22:52,109 --> 00:22:54,170 secrets and how to run their cults better. 260 00:22:54,170 --> 00:22:59,292 And that kind of uh bled into these other specifically self-help cults. 261 00:22:59,443 --> 00:23:02,972 Yeah, you know, this is another thing that's really important that I tell. 262 00:23:02,972 --> 00:23:09,187 you know, people that know a lot about manipulation with words know how to do that. 263 00:23:09,187 --> 00:23:12,640 Doesn't mean they always choose to, but they know how to. 264 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:23,118 And as you're discussing Nicole, you know, it reminds me of NXIVM and their NLP, Neurolinguistic Processing, their use of that. 265 00:23:23,118 --> 00:23:25,349 And it reminds me of Scientology. 266 00:23:25,349 --> 00:23:28,982 And that's part of what they do is focus on a word. 267 00:23:29,032 --> 00:23:32,594 and the fact that you don't understand this word and we're gonna redefine it for you. 268 00:23:32,594 --> 00:23:38,466 And incidentally, a lot of Christian cults do this with the King James Version. 269 00:23:38,466 --> 00:23:46,591 That's why they love the King James Version of the Bible so much because so much of the English is archaic and they can play word games with it. 270 00:23:46,591 --> 00:23:47,351 Totally. 271 00:23:47,351 --> 00:23:55,631 And actually Nicole, another part of her origin story is that she lived in an LSD house for a number of years with the founder of NLP, Richard Bandler. 272 00:23:55,631 --> 00:24:01,711 So she got like entry level, know, ground level education on NLP and she would do a lot of things. 273 00:24:01,711 --> 00:24:09,871 And this is like, I share this a lot because I find it so fascinating that Nicole used a lot of NLP tactics when she spoke. 274 00:24:09,871 --> 00:24:15,871 Most of them, I'm not educated enough in LLP to know most of them, but one was open looping, which whereas like, 275 00:24:16,254 --> 00:24:20,036 Uh, it's where you give incomplete information to the audience. 276 00:24:20,036 --> 00:24:22,437 So they get kind of get hung up on what you're saying. 277 00:24:22,437 --> 00:24:31,491 And what was funny is that every single person who's who taught for one taste on some level, including myself, when I was eventually teaching classes for them, spoken open 278 00:24:31,491 --> 00:24:31,841 loops. 279 00:24:31,841 --> 00:24:40,625 And I didn't even know what it was until much later, but like, we kind of just absorb these NLP techniques from the person we listen to all the time, totally unconsciously to 280 00:24:40,625 --> 00:24:42,127 get the same results, essentially. 281 00:24:42,127 --> 00:24:43,438 That's incredibly interesting. 282 00:24:43,438 --> 00:24:48,852 I'm wondering, did you get a sense in the group that you were involved with? 283 00:24:48,852 --> 00:24:51,394 Were those at the top that you were interacting with? 284 00:24:51,394 --> 00:24:52,876 they true believers? 285 00:24:52,876 --> 00:24:59,181 Did they see this as uh a scam that they were perpetuating? 286 00:24:59,181 --> 00:25:05,576 And how did that, did some of that help you to see what was actually going on? 287 00:25:05,576 --> 00:25:07,278 Was it different from person to person? 288 00:25:07,278 --> 00:25:15,508 Well, there was definitely an Emperor's New Clothes thing where even people who had their doubts and were questioning the organization, we couldn't talk about it. 289 00:25:15,508 --> 00:25:18,017 Actually, one of the terms that they used was collusion. 290 00:25:18,017 --> 00:25:25,243 It was like the biggest sin that officially it was like if you're justifying your resentments with another member, it was called colluding. 291 00:25:25,243 --> 00:25:34,530 But in reality, it's like if you're, I mean, if you're um criticizing the organization together and creating a separate reality in the group, that's obviously dangerous to the 292 00:25:34,530 --> 00:25:35,311 cult reality. 293 00:25:35,311 --> 00:25:36,863 So, um 294 00:25:36,863 --> 00:25:40,215 The higher ups would never collude with a lower person. 295 00:25:40,215 --> 00:25:45,245 It was usually like your peers that might collude when a higher up person would leave the organization. 296 00:25:45,245 --> 00:25:53,452 It was always a surprise because like up until the day they left, they were still mouthing the words because they didn't want to expose themselves. 297 00:25:53,452 --> 00:25:54,523 So it was always a shock. 298 00:25:54,523 --> 00:26:02,667 And then of course, as all cults do, we had to frame them as crazy or evil and we shouldn't talk to them because it might pollute our mind, et cetera, et cetera. 299 00:26:02,667 --> 00:26:04,318 Yeah. 300 00:26:06,887 --> 00:26:15,067 So what you were talking about there, Ruan, the collusion that was, you know, the accusation that people were colluding. 301 00:26:15,067 --> 00:26:21,521 A lot of times you see this show up in organizations and groups and cults as a prohibition of gossip, right? 302 00:26:21,521 --> 00:26:30,354 That, you know, we don't want, or somebody has gone negative and, you know, they always preach, you've got to stay positive about the organization. 303 00:26:30,354 --> 00:26:34,745 Sounds like, you know, using different language, that's what was happening in one taste. 304 00:26:35,198 --> 00:26:43,026 Yeah, and actually I remember like before I was really deep in, you know, quote colluding with one of my peers, we both ended up getting hired by the organization together. 305 00:26:43,026 --> 00:26:51,124 And I remember we, you know, we had an evening where we were sharing our judgments of the organization and it felt good and validating. 306 00:26:51,124 --> 00:26:54,366 I stopped feeling crazy like someone else was seeing this too. 307 00:26:54,387 --> 00:26:59,712 But the next morning, and she was a little bit deeper in than I was, but the next morning she said, 308 00:27:00,002 --> 00:27:01,293 I have this headache now. 309 00:27:01,293 --> 00:27:03,054 Like I feel sick to my stomach. 310 00:27:03,054 --> 00:27:04,996 Like we really shouldn't have done that yesterday. 311 00:27:04,996 --> 00:27:07,008 And I was like, Oh, like I felt guilty too. 312 00:27:07,008 --> 00:27:08,999 Like, we really did something terrible. 313 00:27:08,999 --> 00:27:14,363 And of course, a lot of this is probably auto suggestion that we were trained to feel guilty about doing this normal thing. 314 00:27:14,363 --> 00:27:23,310 But we also like, we like, she had somatic feelings that something bad had happened because we had done this, which of course, when we were hired by the organization, we 315 00:27:23,310 --> 00:27:26,032 never spoke that way again, because we were afraid to. 316 00:27:27,925 --> 00:27:29,847 It is definitely a tactic. 317 00:27:29,847 --> 00:27:41,577 uh Jan Jolalic and Margaret Singer both talk about it in their cult textbooks of part of the isolation is teaching you not to trust your own mind. 318 00:27:41,837 --> 00:27:52,098 So that way, even once you're away from the organization, like you're not criticizing it, you're just shutting down all of those critiques before they even start. 319 00:27:52,098 --> 00:28:03,621 Yeah, yeah, and one thing that the founder did, I assume it was intentional, is that anytime something potentially controversial had to happen within the organization, she got 320 00:28:03,621 --> 00:28:05,372 someone else to do it for her. 321 00:28:05,372 --> 00:28:14,234 So she maintained this angelic character, whereas even though everyone consciously knew every direction came from her, if something went wrong, if someone had a traumatic 322 00:28:14,234 --> 00:28:17,667 response to something or was harmed, it never got back to her. 323 00:28:17,667 --> 00:28:28,247 to the point where even a year after I left the organization and I was able to be very critical of the organization, I still had this Stockholm syndrome type of feel towards the 324 00:28:28,247 --> 00:28:28,727 founder. 325 00:28:28,727 --> 00:28:30,287 Where it's like, oh, well, it wasn't her fault, right? 326 00:28:30,287 --> 00:28:35,787 Like even though obviously everything came from her, it's like, it was hard for me to attach the bad behavior to her. 327 00:28:35,787 --> 00:28:44,513 Partly because I never saw her do it, but also there was this like halo effect formation around her where it was hard to even think negatively of her. 328 00:28:44,513 --> 00:28:48,747 for a while, like a year later, I still couldn't do it, even though it was so obviously logical. 329 00:28:48,747 --> 00:28:52,027 And that is definitely a pattern. 330 00:28:52,027 --> 00:28:56,609 And let me tell you, when we watched, my husband and I watched the interview. 331 00:28:56,609 --> 00:28:59,320 with Oprah, with Harry and Meghan. 332 00:28:59,421 --> 00:29:04,294 And after the interview, right, I was going like, my gosh, the royal family's a cult. 333 00:29:04,294 --> 00:29:05,415 Like I just watched it. 334 00:29:05,415 --> 00:29:08,207 I saw all the language there, right? 335 00:29:08,207 --> 00:29:13,170 And my husband says, well, I guess the queen is fine though, right? 336 00:29:13,170 --> 00:29:15,402 Like they didn't say anything bad about the queen. 337 00:29:15,402 --> 00:29:26,411 And I looked at him and I said, babe, it's gonna take a decade before they can actually, you know, wrap their heads around all of this is because of her. 338 00:29:26,411 --> 00:29:27,873 right, as you said, right? 339 00:29:27,873 --> 00:29:39,799 So even though they never experienced the Queen doing any of this control stuff to them, to them it all came through the firm and the family and these organizations they talked 340 00:29:39,799 --> 00:29:40,210 about. 341 00:29:40,210 --> 00:29:44,006 But that's part of, that's part of the plan. 342 00:29:44,006 --> 00:29:44,463 Yeah. 343 00:29:44,463 --> 00:29:49,647 Ruan, once you made up your mind to leave, what were the exit costs for you? 344 00:29:49,647 --> 00:29:50,778 What did that look like? 345 00:29:50,778 --> 00:29:57,214 Were there people that came out of the woodwork to convince you not to or to try to convince you not to? 346 00:29:57,214 --> 00:30:02,208 What did that process of extracting yourself from one taste look like for you? 347 00:30:02,491 --> 00:30:05,432 Yeah, well, so I got the ultimatum from the founder. 348 00:30:05,432 --> 00:30:11,044 It was reinforced by her second in command who happened to be like my primary emotional tie. 349 00:30:11,044 --> 00:30:12,794 She was like my mother figure. 350 00:30:12,914 --> 00:30:15,685 She actually called me her kid and I would jokingly call her my mom. 351 00:30:15,685 --> 00:30:18,396 Like that's how, and it felt that way, honestly. 352 00:30:18,616 --> 00:30:23,017 She was the one, and this was true for a lot of like the dirty work that happened. 353 00:30:23,017 --> 00:30:28,139 She was the one who gave me like kind of the emotional, in their language was called a down stroke. 354 00:30:28,219 --> 00:30:29,125 It was like, 355 00:30:29,125 --> 00:30:32,406 she would put the pressure, she would say the mean things, she would make me feel bad. 356 00:30:32,406 --> 00:30:36,388 And then other people who I was close with would be the good cop. 357 00:30:36,388 --> 00:30:43,721 So was getting the positive reward with the negative as, you know, it's kind of a basic manipulation uh scheme. 358 00:30:43,721 --> 00:30:48,023 um But honestly, the hardest part for me, 359 00:30:49,001 --> 00:30:59,181 Yeah, I was just saying that I was getting the good cop, bad cop messages, but honestly the most emotionally jarring thing was that all of my peers got the instruction not to 360 00:30:59,181 --> 00:30:59,961 talk to me. 361 00:30:59,961 --> 00:31:04,481 All my peers now saw me as like this dangerous person because I was on the edge. 362 00:31:04,481 --> 00:31:07,081 I hadn't proven that I was committed yet. 363 00:31:07,081 --> 00:31:08,781 I was like in this limbo state. 364 00:31:09,081 --> 00:31:16,821 So, same people who were my best friends, people who looked up to me because I had certain status in the community. 365 00:31:16,821 --> 00:31:18,739 All of a sudden I was like untouchable. 366 00:31:18,739 --> 00:31:20,240 Like no one was talking to me. 367 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,432 If they did speak to me, was like a cutting, biting remark. 368 00:31:23,453 --> 00:31:26,815 And that was honestly the most jarring, shattering thing. 369 00:31:26,815 --> 00:31:36,864 And maybe it's hard for people to relate to this unless you're thinking of like middle school, mean people, but like it was that level of, wow, my world is over because I'm 370 00:31:36,864 --> 00:31:38,665 completely isolated socially. 371 00:31:38,665 --> 00:31:43,197 um honestly, that was the, I was considering. 372 00:31:43,197 --> 00:31:53,760 doing something to humiliate myself to prove my worth and be accepted again because it was that painful to go through it, but somehow my conscience pulled me through and I was able 373 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:54,292 to leave. 374 00:31:54,292 --> 00:32:06,797 This is such an important thing that you allude to, which is the, there's generally in cults, no sin that is too horrible that they won't take you back if you will humiliate 375 00:32:06,797 --> 00:32:14,677 yourself, absolutely grovel, bend the knee, and then of course work really, really hard to double down for them. 376 00:32:14,677 --> 00:32:14,977 Yeah. 377 00:32:14,977 --> 00:32:19,228 And it was like the dichotomy was so strong because they were making me feel like crap. 378 00:32:19,228 --> 00:32:26,550 But I did know there was like, there was enough people similar to me who had gone through this, who had chosen to reenter and humiliate themselves. 379 00:32:26,550 --> 00:32:28,821 And by doing that, they immediately got bumped up. 380 00:32:28,821 --> 00:32:32,102 It's like they, they get, they got promoted for re-upping, right? 381 00:32:32,102 --> 00:32:37,864 It's like, and then they were celebrated as this person like, this guy went, or this woman went through this difficult time. 382 00:32:37,864 --> 00:32:41,645 They're thinking, you know, they're demon, they're battling their demons, but they did the right thing, right? 383 00:32:41,645 --> 00:32:42,859 They recommitted. 384 00:32:42,859 --> 00:32:44,221 and then it became even more elevated. 385 00:32:44,221 --> 00:32:52,402 So it's either I got a promotion or I got excommunicated and the gap was so strong that it seemed emotionally obvious to recommit myself. 386 00:32:52,402 --> 00:32:58,260 You mentioned earlier a trial that was involving this particular group. 387 00:32:58,260 --> 00:32:59,532 What's the status of that? 388 00:32:59,532 --> 00:33:06,862 Can you kind of bring folks up to speed as to what precipitated that and where we're at now? 389 00:33:08,027 --> 00:33:08,327 yeah. 390 00:33:08,327 --> 00:33:16,051 So I think that they ended up on the FBI's radar after the 2018 expose by Bloomberg, which I was featured. 391 00:33:16,051 --> 00:33:16,441 I don't know. 392 00:33:16,441 --> 00:33:21,884 I was quoted in, um, and I was interviewed by the FBI shortly afterwards. 393 00:33:21,884 --> 00:33:23,434 I think it was just fact finding for them. 394 00:33:23,434 --> 00:33:26,677 It wasn't like an official, um, official interview. 395 00:33:26,677 --> 00:33:36,242 And then after the 2022 Netflix documentary, I don't know how much the documentary influenced them, but I'm sure some they did start, uh, they, did eventually indict. 396 00:33:36,470 --> 00:33:41,062 Nicole, the founder, I think the same year the documentary came out or the following year. 397 00:33:41,062 --> 00:33:44,824 And then the trial officially started in May. 398 00:33:44,824 --> 00:33:50,476 They were found guilty, I believe late May, immediately remanded. 399 00:33:50,916 --> 00:33:54,729 And then the sentencing should be next month unless it gets pushed again. 400 00:33:54,729 --> 00:34:05,697 Now, when you say they, and because you just used re-upping, which is another military term, you're talking about also the woman who was her second in command, who I believe was 401 00:34:05,697 --> 00:34:08,789 a lieutenant colonel in the military, is that right? 402 00:34:09,498 --> 00:34:11,219 No, no, she wasn't in the military. 403 00:34:11,219 --> 00:34:19,704 um I, although I actually wanted to be so I didn't serve but I went through Officer Canada school for the Marine Corps. 404 00:34:19,704 --> 00:34:27,978 And I actually chose not to do that because I felt like ah my net, my net benefit would be like more anxiety. 405 00:34:27,978 --> 00:34:29,669 I was doing it as like a personal development challenge. 406 00:34:29,669 --> 00:34:37,334 But what was interesting, even though obviously the Marines are like a hyper masculine organization, this was a hyper feminine organization, my first weeks living in their 407 00:34:37,334 --> 00:34:38,128 house, 408 00:34:38,128 --> 00:34:39,749 felt like being an OCS, right? 409 00:34:39,749 --> 00:34:41,170 Because they control all of your time. 410 00:34:41,170 --> 00:34:43,339 There's like a series of things you have to do. 411 00:34:43,339 --> 00:34:45,082 You have to learn the lingo. 412 00:34:45,102 --> 00:34:51,386 If you do something wrong, they don't explain to you why it's like you just get punished and then you have to learn that way. 413 00:34:51,586 --> 00:34:55,608 So, you know, these indoctrination tactics obviously aren't unique. 414 00:34:55,608 --> 00:34:57,129 They're just employed differently. 415 00:34:57,129 --> 00:34:58,585 um 416 00:34:58,585 --> 00:35:04,517 to be clear, cults are patriarchal and Nicole Day-Done is not a feminist, right? 417 00:35:04,517 --> 00:35:11,490 Like she's using the same, like when women lead cults, they're still leading patriarchal organizations. 418 00:35:11,490 --> 00:35:14,971 um And we still see all the same patterns. 419 00:35:14,971 --> 00:35:19,253 I also think that this is why, like when women 420 00:35:19,341 --> 00:35:31,299 create these organizations or get to the top of these organizations, society celebrates a lot more when they fall because it is transgressive of a woman to try to build this and be 421 00:35:31,299 --> 00:35:32,861 in charge in this way. 422 00:35:33,104 --> 00:35:35,915 I think it's, I mean, there's a lot of layers to this too. 423 00:35:35,915 --> 00:35:45,630 It's that like, I was drawn to, especially as a young idealistic man, I was drawn to this idea of like, this is like, if one taste really takes over the world, like maybe they 424 00:35:45,630 --> 00:35:49,921 change everything about society in a positive direction, right? 425 00:35:49,921 --> 00:35:56,584 Maybe everything's more egalitarian and more about feelings and people being understood because one, that's what I thought. 426 00:35:56,584 --> 00:36:00,286 mean, anyway, that's what they preached. 427 00:36:00,286 --> 00:36:03,178 or that that's what the like the lower level community seemed like. 428 00:36:03,178 --> 00:36:07,782 But to your point, the higher you went in, the more it was as hierarchical as anything else. 429 00:36:07,782 --> 00:36:16,420 Maybe the hierarchy was a little bit different and the normal terminology was like more seemingly female friendly. 430 00:36:16,420 --> 00:36:24,086 But the truth is young women suffered absolutely the most of anyone because they were used the most and they were 431 00:36:24,639 --> 00:36:26,710 Yeah, they were used the most out of anybody. 432 00:36:26,710 --> 00:36:30,062 They were the most useful to the organization, so they were used the most. 433 00:36:30,663 --> 00:36:35,447 the idea that they're female empowerment organization is totally ridiculous. 434 00:36:35,447 --> 00:36:37,005 So Ruwan, what's next for you? 435 00:36:37,005 --> 00:36:39,991 You mentioned that you have a book coming out. 436 00:36:39,991 --> 00:36:45,545 Yeah, interestingly enough, like, I knew I wanted to write about uh being in there. 437 00:36:45,545 --> 00:36:49,668 Actually, my plan was to write about being in the Marines had I gone that route. 438 00:36:49,668 --> 00:36:52,520 But then I read the book One Bullet Away and it's like, someone did that already. 439 00:36:52,520 --> 00:37:02,667 um But then the book I was going to write with Nicole, even when I left, I was still so indoctrinated that I still had the intention of writing a book that ultimately would have 440 00:37:02,667 --> 00:37:07,010 been mostly pro one taste, honestly. 441 00:37:07,010 --> 00:37:09,363 So it took it took many years to kind of like, 442 00:37:09,363 --> 00:37:11,464 sort everything out in my mind. 443 00:37:11,464 --> 00:37:17,915 know, some people encouraged me to write like a, you know, an expose that would, you know, that wasn't really my interest. 444 00:37:17,915 --> 00:37:19,956 I wanted to tell my journey of my story. 445 00:37:19,956 --> 00:37:24,877 Um, it's taken over a decade to formulate it, but it's finally finished. 446 00:37:24,877 --> 00:37:28,068 It's including the recent criminal current events. 447 00:37:28,068 --> 00:37:34,460 Um, and as soon as the sentencing is passed, which is currently scheduled for late October, I'm going to publish it. 448 00:37:34,460 --> 00:37:37,452 I just need to write that line in of what, what happened essentially. 449 00:37:37,452 --> 00:37:39,049 Wow, I'm excited to read it. 450 00:37:39,049 --> 00:37:39,826 Yeah, thanks. 451 00:37:39,826 --> 00:37:49,710 So Ruwan, as we conclude today, what is something that you would want people to walk away from your experience learning about these particular groups? 452 00:37:49,710 --> 00:38:03,216 What advice would you give to young men much like yourself uh or other people that, you know, um obviously we would all uh like a better world and these groups often lure us in 453 00:38:03,216 --> 00:38:09,030 with these promises, but like every cult, they're unable to fulfill those promises. 454 00:38:09,030 --> 00:38:22,452 So what advice, what direction, what would you share with someone that was like you in that situation and wanting a better world, but not to be lured in by these particular 455 00:38:22,452 --> 00:38:23,834 dangerous groups? 456 00:38:24,031 --> 00:38:26,673 Yeah, well, that could be its own episode, guess. 457 00:38:26,673 --> 00:38:28,464 All right, I guess I covered it in my book. 458 00:38:28,464 --> 00:38:34,949 um I guess one thing, and I think you guys allude to this as well, it's like a lot of things are cults. 459 00:38:34,949 --> 00:38:41,974 Maybe they're not officially cults, but they function as cults and they have the potential negative outcomes of cults. 460 00:38:41,974 --> 00:38:50,431 And maybe also, and this maybe is like my most controversial take that some people get upset about is that I think cults work because they're... 461 00:38:50,431 --> 00:38:55,150 way we have to be a good country father to our children. 462 00:38:55,150 --> 00:39:05,114 leader and we have a, you if you think of our Paleolithic ancestors, probably every tribe operated like a cult, which is why for those of us who join cults as an adult, there is 463 00:39:05,114 --> 00:39:14,978 like this, you know, quote, this is cult language, but this quote coming home feeling that I think is in itself real and beautiful, but obviously can be used for terrible, uh 464 00:39:14,978 --> 00:39:15,788 terrible ends. 465 00:39:15,788 --> 00:39:20,460 so I don't know this is advice as much as this is my perspective on cults in general. 466 00:39:20,901 --> 00:39:25,427 I do think that I did gain a lot from being in it. 467 00:39:25,427 --> 00:39:27,060 I wish I left a little bit sooner. 468 00:39:27,060 --> 00:39:30,715 It's kind of hard to see when the right moment would have been, but. 469 00:39:30,715 --> 00:39:31,398 um 470 00:39:31,398 --> 00:39:32,709 Human nature is kind of gnarly. 471 00:39:32,709 --> 00:39:33,729 That's kind of what I learned. 472 00:39:33,729 --> 00:39:39,441 It's like a lot of people, think everybody other than the founder had really beautiful intentions. 473 00:39:39,441 --> 00:39:46,003 Even the people who did some pretty terrible things out of devotion for the founder did it because they believed that it was the right thing to do. 474 00:39:46,243 --> 00:39:54,557 That doesn't mean that acts were the right thing, but it does mean that good people do bad things and you you could take a lot of philosophical statements from that. 475 00:39:54,557 --> 00:39:59,129 Yeah, I mean, that is the ends justify the means mentality at the end of the day. 476 00:39:59,129 --> 00:40:05,011 And I think that is one of the things that we are all prone to as humans, right? 477 00:40:05,011 --> 00:40:12,726 And I think anything, in my opinion, anything that you hold sacred can be used to manipulate you in that way, right? 478 00:40:12,726 --> 00:40:20,959 So I sometimes I say hold nothing sacred, which doesn't actually mean hold nothing sacred, but like I, for example, 479 00:40:21,185 --> 00:40:23,156 very opposed to violence against children. 480 00:40:23,156 --> 00:40:24,897 I don't think there's ever a need for it. 481 00:40:24,897 --> 00:40:27,768 I think it is terrible, it is harmful, it is traumatic. 482 00:40:27,909 --> 00:40:38,245 But what that means is that if someone came here to DC and started a group that was going against violence toward children and was trying to get legislation and was trying to get 483 00:40:38,245 --> 00:40:41,996 stuff done, I could potentially be manipulated by that. 484 00:40:42,417 --> 00:40:49,931 And I think that's kind of where, you know, what you're saying to young people, I think is like, 485 00:40:49,941 --> 00:40:51,961 we have to hold nuance, right? 486 00:40:51,961 --> 00:40:53,854 Like we're gonna be passionate about things. 487 00:40:53,854 --> 00:40:56,247 We're gonna wanna devote our lives to things. 488 00:40:56,247 --> 00:41:02,351 And very importantly, we are all looking for that sense of community and coming home. 489 00:41:02,452 --> 00:41:06,766 I even think this is, we see this in the ex-cult community, right? 490 00:41:06,766 --> 00:41:17,716 It's like we all connect to each other so hard because we miss that feeling of having that tribe and having that community that we were given by cults. 491 00:41:17,716 --> 00:41:18,371 Totally. 492 00:41:18,371 --> 00:41:19,203 Yeah. 493 00:41:19,694 --> 00:41:25,282 Ruan, thank you so much for joining us and hopefully we can do this again once your book comes out. 494 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:26,747 Yeah, definitely, I'd love to. 495 00:41:26,747 --> 00:41:37,101 And please keep in touch because I have a very popular cult book club and I'm always looking for new cult books, books that are coming out from different voices, which is to 496 00:41:37,101 --> 00:41:44,044 say not straight presenting white women about cults as well so that we can braid all of these in. 497 00:41:44,044 --> 00:41:48,186 And I know that my audience would absolutely love to read your book. 498 00:41:48,186 --> 00:41:48,592 Awesome. 499 00:41:48,592 --> 00:41:49,990 Yeah, we'll do for sure. 500 00:41:49,990 --> 00:41:55,324 Thank you so much for tuning in to this edition of CULT and the CULTing of America podcast. 501 00:41:55,324 --> 00:42:06,441 My name is Scott Lloyd for the Knitting Cult Lady, Daniella Mesteneck Young, and her book, The CULTing of America, is available now, right? 502 00:42:07,442 --> 00:42:09,823 Everywhere, so get it. 503 00:42:09,904 --> 00:42:10,984 Go ahead. 504 00:42:12,226 --> 00:42:12,692 Yes. 505 00:42:12,692 --> 00:42:18,536 It comes out January 20th, but the audio and digital will come out in November. 506 00:42:18,536 --> 00:42:29,572 And I also wanted to say that Scott has a book, Speaking of Different Voices, out, The God I Was Given, Finding My Faith After Losing My Religion, and I believe the audio is now out 507 00:42:29,572 --> 00:42:30,492 as well. 508 00:42:30,492 --> 00:42:35,188 We will definitely be doing that in next round of Cult Book Club. 509 00:42:35,188 --> 00:42:36,509 So check it out. 510 00:42:36,509 --> 00:42:38,020 Thank you so much for that, Daniella. 511 00:42:38,020 --> 00:42:38,921 Thank you, Ruan. 512 00:42:38,921 --> 00:42:40,283 Thank you, everyone, for listening. 513 00:42:40,283 --> 00:42:45,557 We'll see you on the next episode of Cults and the Culting of America. 514 00:42:45,952 --> 00:42:46,874 Thanks guys. 515 00:42:47,934 --> 00:42:48,452 Thank you very