1 00:00:25,646 --> 00:00:29,901 Welcome to another edition of Cults and the Culting of America podcast. 2 00:00:29,901 --> 00:00:35,588 My name is Scott Lloyd along with knitting cult lady, Daniela Mesteneck Young. 3 00:00:35,588 --> 00:00:37,901 Daniela, it's always good to see you. 4 00:00:37,901 --> 00:00:39,372 How are you doing today? 5 00:00:39,843 --> 00:00:42,854 You know it's getting weirder and weirder every day in America. 6 00:00:42,854 --> 00:00:44,939 It's almost like it's 7 00:00:47,630 --> 00:00:55,236 Well, it's good that we have you to sort of guide us through uh all that is going on in the world. 8 00:00:55,236 --> 00:01:07,125 uh speaking of everything that is going on in the world, we have some wonderful guests with us today who are actually producing a movie about a lot of the issues that we talk 9 00:01:07,125 --> 00:01:09,107 about here on this program. 10 00:01:09,107 --> 00:01:13,210 It's great to have Pete and Rebecca joining us. 11 00:01:13,239 --> 00:01:17,657 Welcome and you guys are producing a movie uh join or die. 12 00:01:17,657 --> 00:01:25,432 That's a rather ominous title But but why don't you take a moment and introduce yourselves to our audience? 13 00:01:25,718 --> 00:01:27,139 Thanks so much for having us on. 14 00:01:27,139 --> 00:01:31,563 So um I'm Rebecca Davis and Pete Davis, my brother is here on with me. 15 00:01:31,563 --> 00:01:38,029 We are a brother sister filmmaking team and we are the co-directors and co-producers of the film, Join or Die. 16 00:01:38,029 --> 00:01:40,771 um It came out in 2023. 17 00:01:40,771 --> 00:01:43,134 So the film has been out for about two years now. 18 00:01:43,134 --> 00:01:52,502 We uh spent a lot of 2023 touring film festivals and then um we're released on Netflix in the fall of last year. 19 00:01:52,694 --> 00:01:58,479 and have been on a huge community tour um with the film for the last two years now. 20 00:01:58,479 --> 00:02:01,522 We've done about 450 community screenings. 21 00:02:01,522 --> 00:02:06,146 And it's just been an incredible journey getting this message out there. 22 00:02:06,146 --> 00:02:09,728 um Pete, do wanna give a quick summary about the film for anyone listening and maybe? 23 00:02:09,728 --> 00:02:18,015 know, our tagline for the film explains it all, which is this is a film about why you should join a club and why the fate of America depends on it. 24 00:02:18,015 --> 00:02:30,046 And listeners might be wondering, why are we here on this podcast talking about why you should join a club when this has mostly been about the theme of the problem of abusive 25 00:02:30,046 --> 00:02:31,067 communities? 26 00:02:31,067 --> 00:02:36,828 But the reason why we think there might be a connection, and we're guessing is the reason y'all think there was a connection. 27 00:02:36,828 --> 00:02:41,992 is because the ultimate inoculation against bad community is good community. 28 00:02:41,992 --> 00:02:44,635 We have a community sized hole in our heart. 29 00:02:44,635 --> 00:02:56,746 And if it gets too big, it will be filled by the people that promise very quick, very fast, ultimate deep community. 30 00:02:56,746 --> 00:02:58,687 And that's where you start getting problems. 31 00:02:58,687 --> 00:03:04,628 What we want to celebrate is ordinary civic life, neighbor to neighbor community groups. 32 00:03:04,628 --> 00:03:11,854 and their history in being the deep and simple long-term way we actually fill that community-sized hole in our hearts. 33 00:03:11,854 --> 00:03:18,879 The history of the Rotary Club and the NAACP and the Lions and the Odd Fellows is one of the groups that we featured. 34 00:03:18,879 --> 00:03:24,483 Plus all of the informal groups throughout our nation's history. 35 00:03:24,483 --> 00:03:30,840 Neighbors getting together and solving things, neighbors getting together and having fun, neighbors getting together to mourn and celebrate. 36 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:35,423 and entertain themselves and fight city hall, all the different ways that we've gotten together. 37 00:03:35,423 --> 00:03:37,864 And so our movie is a celebration of that. 38 00:03:37,864 --> 00:03:47,129 It's a story about how over the last 75 years, there's been a decline in community connections, but most importantly, it's a story about how we can turn that around. 39 00:03:47,129 --> 00:03:50,140 And so we follow the work of the leading expert on this. 40 00:03:50,140 --> 00:03:51,101 name is Robert Putnam. 41 00:03:51,101 --> 00:04:00,568 He's a Harvard sociologist and political scientist who has tracked this decline, but also track the times when we've had upswings in community life. 42 00:04:00,568 --> 00:04:01,940 and how we can get that again. 43 00:04:01,940 --> 00:04:07,115 So we've been traveling the country, as my sister said, talking to people about their community stories. 44 00:04:07,115 --> 00:04:09,388 How are you experiencing social isolation today? 45 00:04:09,388 --> 00:04:10,699 How has the club changed your life? 46 00:04:10,699 --> 00:04:11,410 Things like that. 47 00:04:11,410 --> 00:04:15,815 And so we're excited about this touches on so many topics in American life. 48 00:04:15,815 --> 00:04:18,649 And we're excited to talk with you about this today. 49 00:04:18,649 --> 00:04:29,911 It's such an interesting timing to be having this conversation because literally two hours ago, I just recorded my chapter on isolation in the culting of America. 50 00:04:29,911 --> 00:04:43,119 So I just kind of went through all of this and you know, I've been watching this since COVID very closely because I remember COVID happened and I was like writing a book about 51 00:04:43,119 --> 00:04:46,241 growing up in a cult, my first book, Uncultured. 52 00:04:46,241 --> 00:04:47,173 And I was like, 53 00:04:47,173 --> 00:04:58,336 Oh, everyone's going to understand isolation more now, you know, just the concept of kind of living on this property that you don't leave and you don't see other people, you know, 54 00:04:58,336 --> 00:05:08,281 and so, so that's really, it's really interesting because isolation is actively weaponized by toxic groups. 55 00:05:08,421 --> 00:05:13,152 However, you know, we have the other extreme where I think 56 00:05:13,152 --> 00:05:23,215 in America, like individualism and whiteness both really have, and modernity have destroyed a lot of community. 57 00:05:23,356 --> 00:05:26,760 And now we're really, really suffering from that. 58 00:05:26,998 --> 00:05:30,138 Yeah, you know, I think our film, was released in 2023. 59 00:05:30,138 --> 00:05:32,598 We started it in 2017. 60 00:05:32,598 --> 00:05:37,149 So, you know, the pandemic hit right in the middle of our production calendar. 61 00:05:37,149 --> 00:05:45,089 You know, and I think as you mentioned, us all going through that, you know, that experience, I think really brought a lot of these issues to the center of our heart, to 62 00:05:45,089 --> 00:05:48,149 the forefront of the conversation we were having. 63 00:05:48,161 --> 00:05:58,001 But as we show in the film, these are not trends that just started with the pandemic and they're not even trends that started just with these cell phones that we're all carrying 64 00:05:58,001 --> 00:06:00,441 around in our pockets. 65 00:06:00,761 --> 00:06:06,161 These have been trends that have been building over the course of many decades. 66 00:06:06,161 --> 00:06:08,812 They're not gonna be things we turn around overnight. 67 00:06:08,812 --> 00:06:14,692 The year that Pete and I approached Robert Putnam together, 2017, it was the year that this... 68 00:06:14,692 --> 00:06:19,752 Harvard professor who taught this famous class, Community in America, was retiring from teaching. 69 00:06:19,752 --> 00:06:22,132 And we asked ourselves, how do we take this class? 70 00:06:22,132 --> 00:06:24,212 Pete had actually been a student of his. 71 00:06:24,392 --> 00:06:30,092 And distill it down in an hour and a half documentary so we can share this class with everyone in America. 72 00:06:30,172 --> 00:06:41,532 And what the numbers were looking at at that time when we approached Bob was that in 2017, 43 % of Americans said they belonged to zero groups. 73 00:06:41,732 --> 00:06:46,072 So that was a Pew Research study and they asked them, are you a member of a book club? 74 00:06:46,072 --> 00:06:47,852 Are you a member of a church, a veterans group? 75 00:06:47,852 --> 00:06:56,143 And they even gave them the option to say other, any type of organization where people are getting together, a knitting club or a card playing club. 76 00:06:56,143 --> 00:07:04,483 And still the results of that, even with that broad of a brush that they were painting and asking this question was zero. 77 00:07:04,483 --> 00:07:07,289 So we've got a lot of work to do. 78 00:07:07,289 --> 00:07:11,332 And these are not trends that just started in the last few years. 79 00:07:11,481 --> 00:07:11,861 ways. 80 00:07:11,861 --> 00:07:19,621 But if you look at the data over the last 75 years on every type of social interaction, it's in steep decline. 81 00:07:19,621 --> 00:07:27,101 You know, between 1990, the number of people who report having zero friends has quintupled, 5X. 82 00:07:27,101 --> 00:07:40,781 You know, even really informal stuff, like in 1975, the average American picnic on average five times per year by 1999, just in, you know, 22 decades, it had dropped to two times 83 00:07:40,781 --> 00:07:41,581 per year. 84 00:07:41,581 --> 00:07:48,201 You know, the amount of people that said they're going to public meetings to talk about things in their city, maybe they're not part of a club, but they're participating in civic 85 00:07:48,201 --> 00:07:52,313 life that has dropped by more than half in the half century. 86 00:07:52,313 --> 00:08:02,017 So, and we're seeing it across every type, you know, if it's a religious congregation, that has dropped from, you know, 85 % of Americans being a member of that to fit less than 87 00:08:02,017 --> 00:08:02,101 50. 88 00:08:02,101 --> 00:08:08,447 If it's a union, that dropped from a third of Americans being part of that to 6 % in a private sector union. 89 00:08:08,447 --> 00:08:11,089 Across all different types, we're seeing this decline. 90 00:08:11,089 --> 00:08:15,182 And that's where disturbing trends start rising up. 91 00:08:15,182 --> 00:08:20,096 They are symptoms of this social isolation disease. 92 00:08:20,096 --> 00:08:21,351 Another way to put it is, 93 00:08:21,351 --> 00:08:27,089 They're the types of creatures that thrive in an arid social desert. 94 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:35,632 You have those types of disturbing types of organizations thrive much less when we have a much more verdant social ecosystem. 95 00:08:35,644 --> 00:08:40,326 I haven't had the opportunity to see the film, but I'm really excited to see it now. 96 00:08:40,326 --> 00:08:53,231 And obviously a lot of the issues that you're talking about, the negative impacts of people not being a part of these particular groups creates opportunities for cult leaders 97 00:08:53,231 --> 00:09:04,855 and cults to arise because they're exploiting this need, right, that is in our lives to be a part of community, this social capital or this 98 00:09:04,855 --> 00:09:11,640 social hygiene that is necessary to sort of uh move uh life along. 99 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:27,269 can you talk about how the absence of being a part of these uh positive community groups sort of creates the opportunity for people to become attached to groups that obviously 100 00:09:27,269 --> 00:09:30,822 produce harm and perpetuate harm in their lives? 101 00:09:30,822 --> 00:09:42,829 Yeah, I mean, it creates a real vulnerability there for people, know, instances of, you know, depression, instances of suicide, you know, those all go up and it makes, you know, 102 00:09:42,829 --> 00:09:53,316 folks that are isolated alone, you know, that much more vulnerable when a group comes to them and offers them the thing that we, you know, all crave in our lives and in our hearts 103 00:09:53,316 --> 00:09:57,214 as human beings, you know, connection, other people that 104 00:09:57,214 --> 00:09:59,455 that see us and are there to care for us. 105 00:09:59,455 --> 00:10:13,545 uh But perhaps the even larger risk that Robert Putnam really spent much of his life charting was not just this connection between social isolation and our mental and physical 106 00:10:13,545 --> 00:10:18,115 health, which is partly why we chose this title Join or Die because of those. 107 00:10:18,115 --> 00:10:21,438 those connections, um but also the health of our democracy. 108 00:10:21,438 --> 00:10:33,327 So early in Robert Putnam's career, he conducted a landmark study in Italy at this moment when the Italian government was decentralizing its power from Rome out to the different 109 00:10:33,327 --> 00:10:34,307 regional governments. 110 00:10:34,307 --> 00:10:42,775 And he set about to take on this very ambitious study, almost like he was there at the founding of the United States when we were creating our state system where he was able to. 111 00:10:42,775 --> 00:10:50,301 look at all the different regions of Italy who'd recently been granted new power and ask the question, what makes democracy work? 112 00:10:50,301 --> 00:10:53,233 And he went about looking for the usual suspects. 113 00:10:53,233 --> 00:10:55,225 Was it the region with the highest education? 114 00:10:55,225 --> 00:10:57,486 What is it the region with the most money? 115 00:10:57,486 --> 00:11:06,918 And what he ended up finding, which really impacted his view as he went on to do later work, was that it was the regions of Italy with 116 00:11:06,918 --> 00:11:17,954 the best social capital or the strongest social fabric, the regions that had vibrant bocce clubs or coral societies or soccer clubs, football clubs, as we call them, you over in 117 00:11:17,954 --> 00:11:18,335 Europe. 118 00:11:18,335 --> 00:11:29,211 You know, and that really raised Bob's antenna when he turned his sights back to America later in his career and uh actually, you know, noticed that a lot of these everyday ways 119 00:11:29,211 --> 00:11:34,516 that Americans had historically gotten together and things like the PTA, religious groups, 120 00:11:34,516 --> 00:11:39,736 His book that came out in the year 2000, Bowling Alone, got its title from looking at bowling leagues. 121 00:11:39,736 --> 00:11:41,996 These things were all in decline. 122 00:11:42,076 --> 00:11:48,807 And he knew that that would not be good because of his research in Italy for a thriving democracy. 123 00:11:48,807 --> 00:12:00,527 I think we've seen certainly the repercussions of that as we've watched kind of polarization go up and just a lot of communities in America where they know their 124 00:12:00,527 --> 00:12:02,798 democracy is not working as well as it could be. 125 00:12:02,798 --> 00:12:05,780 Yeah, you know, this brings up so many things for me. 126 00:12:05,780 --> 00:12:12,462 So two things I grew up in Brazil and I've been studying the Brazilian dictatorship quite a bit. 127 00:12:12,462 --> 00:12:17,464 There's some interesting similarities and soon we're going to have a conversation with Dr. 128 00:12:17,464 --> 00:12:18,525 Brian Pitts. 129 00:12:18,525 --> 00:12:30,921 And he wrote a book until the storm passes that is basically saying that the way the Brazilians took down their military dictatorship was 130 00:12:30,921 --> 00:12:32,851 regular civic engagement. 131 00:12:32,851 --> 00:12:45,355 Local people, even as far as corrupt politicians doing corrupt things that benefited them and their constituents, still helped take down the overall control. 132 00:12:45,355 --> 00:12:51,896 And another thing that's interesting, and I think this is just one facet, right? 133 00:12:51,896 --> 00:12:53,317 So I grew up in Brazil. 134 00:12:53,317 --> 00:12:59,238 So I grew up with no air conditioning, even though I'm a millennial. 135 00:12:59,562 --> 00:13:11,310 And even now, there's much less air conditioning in Brazil than like, like their response hasn't been freeze everything. 136 00:13:11,310 --> 00:13:17,594 It's just spend more time outside, learn how to be cool, you know, et cetera. 137 00:13:17,594 --> 00:13:24,310 Whereas, you know, then I get dropped into Texas, which their response is literally freeze everything. 138 00:13:24,310 --> 00:13:27,616 most pro-air conditioned state in the union, perhaps. 139 00:13:27,684 --> 00:13:32,775 And now I live in Maryland and I live in these beautiful townhouses. 140 00:13:32,975 --> 00:13:36,076 There's a trail that runs from the university. 141 00:13:36,076 --> 00:13:38,297 It's a very nice walkable area. 142 00:13:38,297 --> 00:13:51,070 And I just think like a hundred years ago before air conditioning, we would all just have got done sitting on our front stoops for three to four hours a day, because it would be 143 00:13:51,070 --> 00:13:57,822 too hot to be inside and the ways that would change community. 144 00:13:58,024 --> 00:14:07,723 You know, I also, because I didn't come to America till the 2000s, I've only heard the stories of like, children used to be able to just go out and play. 145 00:14:07,843 --> 00:14:10,005 And that's not done anymore. 146 00:14:10,005 --> 00:14:19,654 And I think in large part, it's because of this like continual regression of organic community in America. 147 00:14:19,793 --> 00:14:21,274 Totally. 148 00:14:21,514 --> 00:14:26,247 There were so many things that forced us into community out of necessity. 149 00:14:26,247 --> 00:14:37,354 Many of the original civic groups in America were started as proto-insurance cooperatives, where you would get together in a group because you would have a rotating credit to help 150 00:14:37,354 --> 00:14:40,426 your farm if there was a natural disaster. 151 00:14:40,426 --> 00:14:44,628 There was people being outside because you have to, because there was no television. 152 00:14:44,628 --> 00:14:46,019 You would have to go. 153 00:14:46,019 --> 00:14:47,660 Or there was no recorded music. 154 00:14:47,660 --> 00:14:54,705 So you'd have to, if you want to hear music and you didn't have a piano in your home, you'd have to go to the town square and go to a concert with other people to even hear 155 00:14:54,705 --> 00:14:56,456 music or be entertained at the theater. 156 00:14:56,456 --> 00:15:09,285 Um, so this is as those things become not necessity, we might think we're getting a benefit by being able to privatize that task, but we're losing all the ancillary benefits, 157 00:15:09,285 --> 00:15:12,257 which might be even more important of community. 158 00:15:12,257 --> 00:15:14,789 And so the challenge that we give people. 159 00:15:14,893 --> 00:15:21,196 is we are always telling people, ask yourself, what are you doing alone that you could be doing together? 160 00:15:21,196 --> 00:15:23,747 Because people think, I don't have enough time for community. 161 00:15:23,747 --> 00:15:30,150 But there are things that you have to get done in your day anyway that you are choosing to do alone. 162 00:15:30,150 --> 00:15:35,562 You know, we're designed towards a choice, but we are all choosing to do alone that we could choose to do together. 163 00:15:35,562 --> 00:15:38,153 So are you entertaining yourself alone? 164 00:15:38,153 --> 00:15:43,165 You know, we we met up with we found out about a group in San Francisco. 165 00:15:43,173 --> 00:15:48,477 that has a TV club where they literally just get together to watch TV with their neighbors. 166 00:15:48,477 --> 00:15:50,729 You know, are you informing yourself alone? 167 00:15:50,729 --> 00:15:55,232 You know, why don't, you know, instead of learning alone, why don't you be part of a book club? 168 00:15:55,232 --> 00:15:58,915 Are you doing childcare alone and figuring it out through the market? 169 00:15:58,915 --> 00:16:01,427 Like, I gotta go find a babysitter for my kids for this. 170 00:16:01,427 --> 00:16:03,409 Or could you join a childcare cooperative? 171 00:16:03,409 --> 00:16:04,023 You know. 172 00:16:04,023 --> 00:16:06,755 on and on, you know, are you fighting City Hall alone? 173 00:16:06,755 --> 00:16:15,690 Like if you have an issue with the city, I'm just going to privately write my angry email instead of forming a neighborhood associations to turn private problems into public 174 00:16:15,690 --> 00:16:18,421 problems that then turns into public action. 175 00:16:18,421 --> 00:16:22,374 That is the question that's at the heart of any community rejuvenation. 176 00:16:22,374 --> 00:16:26,426 It's people saying, what am I doing alone that I could be doing together? 177 00:16:26,426 --> 00:16:29,938 Let's take one incredible movement um in American history. 178 00:16:29,938 --> 00:16:31,408 Second wave feminism. 179 00:16:31,795 --> 00:16:45,129 It all started with a bunch of people in sharing circles who decided that they were not going to deal with issues that they thought were private issues, personal in their house. 180 00:16:45,129 --> 00:16:52,351 And instead through conversation in clubs and organizations, turning those private issues into public issues. 181 00:16:52,351 --> 00:17:01,483 And that goes from the most soft, goofy things like joining a pickleball club, which is so much more fun together than just alone. 182 00:17:01,483 --> 00:17:09,328 all the way to the most serious things like fighting fascism, you know, um is only can't be done just in ad hoc things. 183 00:17:09,328 --> 00:17:17,805 And so I always challenge people in these dark times, so many people might dramatically say something like, I would die to solve all these problems. 184 00:17:17,805 --> 00:17:19,426 I would die for this cause. 185 00:17:19,426 --> 00:17:23,548 Here's a somewhat harder challenge than dying for a cause. 186 00:17:23,588 --> 00:17:28,150 Are you willing to go to a Thursday night meeting every Thursday for the next year? 187 00:17:28,150 --> 00:17:28,932 For their cause! 188 00:17:28,932 --> 00:17:29,553 Yes! 189 00:17:29,553 --> 00:17:30,478 Yes! 190 00:17:30,478 --> 00:17:32,041 a little too hard. 191 00:17:32,041 --> 00:17:34,985 And so I would say, let's do something harder than dying for the cause. 192 00:17:34,985 --> 00:17:44,090 Let's lock down our Thursday nights for the next year and start meeting with your neighbors to talk about little things that you want to do one step in the right direction. 193 00:17:44,090 --> 00:17:49,582 And by the way, I will say like, I built an incredible business just because of this. 194 00:17:49,582 --> 00:17:52,563 I said to myself, I'm about to start researching a book. 195 00:17:52,563 --> 00:17:54,133 It's going to be very interesting. 196 00:17:54,133 --> 00:17:58,535 And I wonder if people want to know all of this stuff that I'm finding. 197 00:17:58,535 --> 00:18:06,357 And I ended up like crowdsource writing this book, which, by the way, helped me sell my other book, like helped me make this a better book. 198 00:18:06,357 --> 00:18:08,218 Now I run book clubs. 199 00:18:08,218 --> 00:18:09,562 have like 200 00:18:09,562 --> 00:18:16,226 found this whole deconstruction community out there, but also built a really good business. 201 00:18:16,226 --> 00:18:25,505 And I think in a way, there's a lot of that starting online, which is an interesting way of addressing this also. 202 00:18:25,505 --> 00:18:26,368 Yeah, you know, the- 203 00:18:26,368 --> 00:18:37,345 think we're always careful to say, you know, it's not like one way of getting together, you know, is better than another, like online versus in person, but like we're way over 204 00:18:37,345 --> 00:18:40,587 indexed in this moment right now in online meetup. 205 00:18:40,587 --> 00:18:48,151 You know, it can be great to help get, you know, information out there, you know, as you were researching your book, you can connect with people all over the world, you know, 206 00:18:48,151 --> 00:18:50,122 without having to get on an airplane. 207 00:18:50,182 --> 00:18:52,589 But when too much of our 208 00:18:52,589 --> 00:19:00,442 community life is spent in the virtual space, we really need to examine, you what needs are not getting met? 209 00:19:00,442 --> 00:19:05,284 um Are these online friends able to come care for me when I'm sick? 210 00:19:05,284 --> 00:19:09,767 Are they able to pick up my kid when I'm, you know, running late for for childcare? 211 00:19:09,767 --> 00:19:11,678 You know, and we we need both. 212 00:19:12,076 --> 00:19:17,160 And I want to follow up on that because Daniella brought up an important point, right? 213 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:28,009 That uh technology, if you talk about the advent of air conditioning, it has certainly changed how we get together and interact with one another, especially in the summer 214 00:19:28,009 --> 00:19:30,852 months, depending on where you're at in the world. 215 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:35,601 But now we have the advent of social media. 216 00:19:35,701 --> 00:19:44,024 And what a lot of studies are indicating is that the social and social media isn't all that social. 217 00:19:44,024 --> 00:19:51,866 In fact, it tends to isolate us and to uh accentuate feelings of loneliness. 218 00:19:51,866 --> 00:19:54,957 For instance, we're all together here virtually. 219 00:19:54,957 --> 00:19:59,964 And Daniela and I have been getting together virtually for 220 00:19:59,964 --> 00:20:04,048 a year and a half now, but I've never met her in person. 221 00:20:04,048 --> 00:20:18,460 And although I feel like I know her, I also understand as someone who has studied communication that there is a vast difference between communication in the virtual space 222 00:20:18,460 --> 00:20:22,683 and in reality, in face-to-face communication. 223 00:20:22,683 --> 00:20:27,107 uh So obviously, this is better than not 224 00:20:27,553 --> 00:20:30,334 communicating at all with someone. 225 00:20:30,694 --> 00:20:43,281 But also, you talk a little bit about the dangers of limiting ourselves to the social media spaces and communicating in a way that isn't face-to-face? 226 00:20:43,432 --> 00:20:44,972 Yeah, you know, nothing. 227 00:20:44,972 --> 00:20:46,733 We don't want to sound like Luddites here. 228 00:20:46,733 --> 00:20:47,823 You know, it's wonderful. 229 00:20:47,823 --> 00:20:50,954 We all have our favorite YouTubers, podcasters, TikTokers. 230 00:20:50,954 --> 00:21:01,237 We all have had our mind blown and had, you know, felt liberated by finding something online that we would have never found if we were just in our uh in our towns. 231 00:21:01,237 --> 00:21:07,860 But here's the thing we always want to tell people is your favorite YouTuber bringing you soup when you're sick. 232 00:21:07,860 --> 00:21:11,753 Are the fellow fans of your favorite YouTuber bringing you soup when you're sick? 233 00:21:11,753 --> 00:21:13,493 Are they celebrating wins with you? 234 00:21:13,493 --> 00:21:14,664 Are they mourning with you? 235 00:21:14,664 --> 00:21:19,735 Are they noticing the mole on the back of your neck and telling you, should get that checked out at a dermatologist? 236 00:21:19,735 --> 00:21:23,317 Are they driving you to the dermatologist and bringing you out to lunch afterwards? 237 00:21:23,317 --> 00:21:34,730 Are they, um are they people that you're fighting, solving, identifying and solving local issues with like the park nearby our house that affects us way more than big national 238 00:21:34,730 --> 00:21:39,591 issues, even though national issues matter, the park right next to our house, does that need a, you know, 239 00:21:39,591 --> 00:21:45,766 be cleaned up or be reinvested in or something like that, are all the people that you're meeting online doing that? 240 00:21:45,966 --> 00:21:52,592 And um that is um that, you you get some aspects of community out of your online friends. 241 00:21:52,592 --> 00:21:53,663 You might be entertained. 242 00:21:53,663 --> 00:21:54,794 You might be informed. 243 00:21:54,794 --> 00:21:59,758 You might feel a sense of belonging even if your identity is finally represented. 244 00:21:59,758 --> 00:22:03,361 But this embodied aspect is what's missing. 245 00:22:03,361 --> 00:22:08,911 And a second aspect of this is that when you have this embodied aspect, 246 00:22:08,911 --> 00:22:12,202 you might also meet people who are different than you. 247 00:22:12,202 --> 00:22:22,645 And one of the things that I'm sure y'all are way better experts on this than us that cults prey on is they prey on like mono focus of like, this is the one true story. 248 00:22:22,645 --> 00:22:28,389 And the way to break out of that, one of the ways to break out of that is to see that there are multiple stories and multiple perspectives. 249 00:22:28,389 --> 00:22:38,151 And what we saw uh in the high point of civic life mid century in America was that people were part of like six different groups in town. 250 00:22:38,343 --> 00:22:49,322 And if their church group was telling them, all people on that side of town are like this, they need to go away, they, they, they, maybe that was moderated by the fact that they 251 00:22:49,322 --> 00:22:53,836 were in the Kiwanis club and they had a bunch of those days in the Kiwanis club. 252 00:22:53,836 --> 00:22:56,835 And they were able to see that in the Kiwanis club. 253 00:22:56,835 --> 00:23:03,208 those days were not like the story they were hearing in their church, but then in the Kiwanis Club, maybe they were talking bad about people in this church and you're like, 254 00:23:03,208 --> 00:23:08,661 wait, I'm a member of this and we know this person who's like that and we know this person over there and we've heard this over there. 255 00:23:08,661 --> 00:23:21,279 And that triangulation of being part of multiple groups moderated and opened up your field of vision as a person that led you not to get into this monomaniacal state that is preyed 256 00:23:21,279 --> 00:23:22,590 on by cult leaders. 257 00:23:22,590 --> 00:23:24,571 One of the facts, you I said the amount of 258 00:23:24,571 --> 00:23:29,191 people with no friends has quintupled since 1990. 259 00:23:29,191 --> 00:23:30,411 Here's the flip side of that. 260 00:23:30,411 --> 00:23:35,631 The amount of people with 10 or more friends has been cut in half since 1990. 261 00:23:35,631 --> 00:23:39,511 It used to be very normal for people to have 10 friends. 262 00:23:39,511 --> 00:23:42,251 And now it's not normal at all. 263 00:23:42,251 --> 00:23:44,662 You're kind of weird if you have 10 friends or more. 264 00:23:44,662 --> 00:23:47,002 What happens when you have 10 or more friends? 265 00:23:47,002 --> 00:23:53,382 You have a lot of different perspectives and you're not all the same and you're entered into a bunch of different worlds. 266 00:23:54,029 --> 00:23:59,565 And so, uh you know, there's a lot that you're leaving on the table if you only have online communities. 267 00:24:00,764 --> 00:24:17,118 And we talk about this in cult stuff, which is if you don't let any single group or person or identity or organization, you know, or idea, like dominate all of your time, then 268 00:24:17,118 --> 00:24:18,379 you're much safer. 269 00:24:18,379 --> 00:24:25,785 Because part of how cults and coercive groups keep control is by dominating everything about you. 270 00:24:25,785 --> 00:24:28,128 So quite simply, if you have 271 00:24:28,128 --> 00:24:31,711 10 friends, you can't donate all your time to one person, right? 272 00:24:31,711 --> 00:24:38,206 If you're in six clubs, you can't be like over exploited just by one of them. 273 00:24:38,206 --> 00:24:40,618 And I think that's so crucial. 274 00:24:40,618 --> 00:24:48,482 um sorry, I was gonna say we learned this, I did a little mini tour around this summer. 275 00:24:48,482 --> 00:24:51,364 And like I would go host in person meetups. 276 00:24:51,364 --> 00:24:54,879 And what was cool about those is I'm just coming through. 277 00:24:54,879 --> 00:24:57,699 but all those people could meet each other. 278 00:24:57,699 --> 00:25:06,694 And I always tried to talk about this, like now you all know each other, you can continue to get together and hang out because you know you have something in common. 279 00:25:06,694 --> 00:25:07,374 100%. 280 00:25:07,374 --> 00:25:11,338 Yeah, I mean, you know, this is really a war for attention. 281 00:25:11,338 --> 00:25:21,476 And, you know, as you mentioned, you know, cults kind of prey on folks by becoming this kind of singular bubble that people are in, you know, and if there's a cult that we're all 282 00:25:21,476 --> 00:25:25,189 guilty of being a member right now, it's the cult of the media. 283 00:25:25,189 --> 00:25:32,235 um Because the average American right now is spending 10 hours a day consuming media. 284 00:25:32,235 --> 00:25:36,263 So five hours from television and five hours from social media. 285 00:25:36,263 --> 00:25:37,564 and podcast. 286 00:25:37,564 --> 00:25:44,105 And that is just way too much of our attention that is going to other information coming into our brain. 287 00:25:44,105 --> 00:25:55,448 We of course, as informed citizens, as members of this democracy, do need a certain amount of news and information coming into our brain every day so we can plug in to be citizens. 288 00:25:55,589 --> 00:26:02,944 But at roughly 10 hours a day, which is the latest data on how much the average American is consuming media, 289 00:26:02,944 --> 00:26:07,246 you know, it's winning that war and you know, and what is losing? 290 00:26:07,246 --> 00:26:18,853 um You know, those extra hours could be going to cleaning up our park down the street, to starting a neighborhood association, to building a food cooperative, to any other number 291 00:26:18,853 --> 00:26:23,517 of things, building important social movements that we need right now. 292 00:26:23,517 --> 00:26:30,300 And so we really need to be fighting to get that attention back in our personal lives and in our communities. 293 00:26:30,708 --> 00:26:35,068 Pete, you mentioned those statistics from 1990. 294 00:26:35,528 --> 00:26:39,788 And obviously, you touched on this at the opening of our conversation. 295 00:26:39,788 --> 00:26:44,159 But the pandemic sort of accelerated this isolation. 296 00:26:44,159 --> 00:26:47,059 And Rebecca, you touched on the media. 297 00:26:47,419 --> 00:26:55,943 But are there other factors at play, the reason why we're becoming more disconnected as a nation, as a people? 298 00:26:55,943 --> 00:27:02,274 Why are we, why do we have less friends now than those that came before us? 299 00:27:02,274 --> 00:27:13,231 Yeah, favorite, know, uh Bob Putnam, when he wrote this book that was kind of the main book that inspired the film called Bowling Alone, when he looked into the causes of the 300 00:27:13,231 --> 00:27:24,930 bowling alone phenomenon, he looked at all these different causes, he actually even looked into air conditioning too, which, and he wasn't too confident in like saying there was one 301 00:27:24,930 --> 00:27:25,940 thing. 302 00:27:26,042 --> 00:27:31,036 that uh he wasn't even confident in saying there was like one thing that was the open shut case. 303 00:27:31,036 --> 00:27:36,460 If he had to name one, he said, there's something to do with television. 304 00:27:36,460 --> 00:27:38,041 We know a lot of facts about that. 305 00:27:38,041 --> 00:27:40,353 The more television you watch, the less community you're in. 306 00:27:40,353 --> 00:27:46,288 He even had studies of where television came into a region later than other regions. 307 00:27:46,288 --> 00:27:50,075 It hurt the amount of people that were connected. 308 00:27:50,075 --> 00:27:56,310 And he also thought saw that there was generational story here where each successive generation was getting less communal. 309 00:27:56,310 --> 00:28:01,945 So there was something about passing along habits of community from generation to generation. 310 00:28:01,945 --> 00:28:06,569 But he always made sure to say, none of this is an open shut case. 311 00:28:06,569 --> 00:28:15,576 And even if it was simply turning the TV off or figuring out a way that we can pass along community habits, the next generation is not going to turn it around. 312 00:28:15,576 --> 00:28:18,939 And we believe the reason the best way to think about this. 313 00:28:18,939 --> 00:28:27,025 best way to think about the decline and the best way to think about turning it around is to think about it in terms of what we call the ecological metaphor. 314 00:28:27,025 --> 00:28:32,819 So like an ecology in in environmentalism is like a complex natural system. 315 00:28:32,819 --> 00:28:39,194 It's like the trees and the bugs and the birds and the river and the air, they all feed into each other and all these different loops. 316 00:28:39,194 --> 00:28:41,107 So if you're in a rainforest, 317 00:28:41,107 --> 00:28:42,918 and a certain bug dies out. 318 00:28:42,918 --> 00:28:50,194 That means the birds are gonna die out and then the trees are gonna die out and that's gonna change the erosion and that's gonna make the fish die out in a certain way. 319 00:28:50,194 --> 00:28:51,975 And that happened with civics. 320 00:28:51,975 --> 00:29:01,541 It's like there was maybe television came and started the ball rolling, but then all these connective tissue between different things started snapping. 321 00:29:01,541 --> 00:29:09,701 local newspapers start dying out and national cable news starts coming up in its stead and the internet starts coming up and people stop. 322 00:29:09,701 --> 00:29:16,737 You know, they don't join the Rotary Club like their mom or dad did, and then they don't even know the art of hosting meetings anymore. 323 00:29:16,737 --> 00:29:21,060 And then over time you wake up not in a civic rainforest, but a civic desert. 324 00:29:21,261 --> 00:29:29,347 And the way to turn that around though, the fortunate story is you can have a virtuous cycle to match that vicious cycle. 325 00:29:29,388 --> 00:29:33,733 You start one club in your town, people meet each other. 326 00:29:33,733 --> 00:29:35,585 That branches out and forms another club. 327 00:29:35,585 --> 00:29:37,376 You find out there's not enough meeting space. 328 00:29:37,376 --> 00:29:39,758 So you lobby the mayor to have more meeting spaces. 329 00:29:39,758 --> 00:29:41,930 The library opens up more meeting spaces. 330 00:29:41,930 --> 00:29:50,697 You start hosting a joining fair, which many people who saw our film Join or Die are hosting, where they get all the clubs in town and have an activities fair where you can 331 00:29:50,697 --> 00:29:52,178 learn about all the clubs. 332 00:29:52,178 --> 00:29:55,401 You start having an annual parade to show off all the clubs. 333 00:29:55,401 --> 00:30:00,305 You start having a sense of a whole civic culture of the town. 334 00:30:00,305 --> 00:30:03,661 And it becomes really easy to start something up because everyone 335 00:30:03,661 --> 00:30:05,903 is acculturated to the culture of joining. 336 00:30:05,903 --> 00:30:08,325 And you have a civic rainforest again. 337 00:30:08,325 --> 00:30:11,878 So we need a civic reforestation process. 338 00:30:11,878 --> 00:30:18,323 And it all starts with just making one move, asking yourself, what is the next thing this place needs? 339 00:30:18,323 --> 00:30:24,218 And if you repeat that 100 times, you're gonna have a good place that uh is pretty civically flourishing. 340 00:30:24,218 --> 00:30:31,430 And I kind of think this is the good news that's going to come out of our current political squeeze that we're in. 341 00:30:31,430 --> 00:30:38,372 Because honestly, you know, I have been studying every kind of person's advice for what we do right now. 342 00:30:38,372 --> 00:30:45,194 And it all has to do with literally go get involved in local community, pick an issue and get involved. 343 00:30:45,194 --> 00:30:52,016 Like we cannot be passive about politics, about fighting fascism, about all of this stuff. 344 00:30:52,216 --> 00:30:53,036 And 345 00:30:53,158 --> 00:31:00,050 I think a big part of the frustration people have is like, we almost don't know how to do that anymore. 346 00:31:00,050 --> 00:31:05,091 we almost don't, know, someone today was like, what if we did a knit in, right? 347 00:31:05,091 --> 00:31:11,633 And like, we got like thousands of knitters to show up in DC and go sit in the mall and knit. 348 00:31:11,733 --> 00:31:15,114 And how silly would they look coming against us, right? 349 00:31:15,114 --> 00:31:17,035 And how powerful could it be? 350 00:31:17,035 --> 00:31:22,180 And I love it, but how do we organize that, right? 351 00:31:22,180 --> 00:31:32,981 Even I have huge platforms, but I don't know how to kind of trigger this movement, if that makes sense. 352 00:31:32,981 --> 00:31:34,488 oh 353 00:31:34,488 --> 00:31:35,414 we're born with. 354 00:31:35,414 --> 00:31:37,023 know, they are learned skills. 355 00:31:37,023 --> 00:31:37,656 Yeah. 356 00:31:37,656 --> 00:31:41,238 And that's one of the challenges, of these virtual spaces. 357 00:31:41,238 --> 00:31:48,016 And, Daniella, you have a huge following, and you probably understand this a lot more than I do. 358 00:31:48,016 --> 00:31:49,213 It is hard. 359 00:31:49,213 --> 00:31:58,689 It is extremely difficult to translate this, whatever this is, right, into actual people showing up, right? 360 00:31:58,689 --> 00:32:01,350 Or even something as simple. 361 00:32:01,350 --> 00:32:04,437 I recently wrote a book and released it. 362 00:32:04,437 --> 00:32:07,969 And you do all the work that you're supposed to do virtually. 363 00:32:07,969 --> 00:32:17,566 And it's extremely difficult to motivate all of those followers into buying your book or actually doing something. 364 00:32:17,566 --> 00:32:23,209 And that's the challenges and I think the limitations of the virtual space. 365 00:32:23,589 --> 00:32:34,469 Yeah, and I think that speaks to these looser ties that we have in, in quote unquote community online, you know, and I think maybe we even need to think of some new language 366 00:32:34,469 --> 00:32:44,829 that differentiates between, you know, what we are building in the virtual space versus the type of connection where you know people will show up for you. 367 00:32:45,049 --> 00:32:53,209 You know, that is hard to do when you're not kind of meeting face to face and, you know, working on a shared project together. 368 00:32:53,413 --> 00:33:00,369 um But, you know, I think to your point, Tanyela, you know, for anyone listening also who is like, how do I start? 369 00:33:00,369 --> 00:33:02,761 You know, I feel kind of helpless. 370 00:33:02,761 --> 00:33:07,326 um These are not skills that we should be expected to be born with. 371 00:33:07,326 --> 00:33:08,787 They are learned skills. 372 00:33:08,787 --> 00:33:15,913 And, you know, just as much as when we want to get in shape and run a marathon, we head to the gym and start flexing our muscles. 373 00:33:16,686 --> 00:33:18,888 You know, these are civic muscles. 374 00:33:18,888 --> 00:33:20,329 We have to learn how to flex. 375 00:33:20,329 --> 00:33:24,513 So we have to start practicing getting people together and running a meeting. 376 00:33:24,513 --> 00:33:32,801 you know, I think a great place to turn to that, you know, Pete and I tried to surface some of in the film with some great archival material we came across is there are a 377 00:33:32,801 --> 00:33:39,007 million and more examples from American civic history of folks doing this work in the past. 378 00:33:39,007 --> 00:33:41,209 And so I encourage listeners to... 379 00:33:41,209 --> 00:33:48,095 You know, so much of our media is calling our attention into what happened 10 seconds ago, what happened in the last 24 hours. 380 00:33:48,135 --> 00:33:55,101 There is a lot of knowledge that we're leaving on the table by not digging back further um and learning from our ancestors. 381 00:33:55,234 --> 00:33:59,327 Yeah, you know, um let's just take one example, civil rights movement. 382 00:33:59,488 --> 00:34:09,365 They literally had weekly meetings during the Montgomery bus boycott and in the weeks leading up to the Montgomery bus boycott, that was just about preparing people for the 383 00:34:09,365 --> 00:34:12,368 next action that they were going to take. 384 00:34:12,368 --> 00:34:19,847 was a con organizing is education is what some of these master organizers of history like Ella Baker said, where 385 00:34:19,847 --> 00:34:20,204 Okay. 386 00:34:20,204 --> 00:34:28,367 you are teaching people how to be together and do things together as you are organizing people to be together and do things together. 387 00:34:28,427 --> 00:34:40,572 There were literally super training centers like the Highlander Folk School, where civil rights leaders in every town went to go to retreats for weeks and then learn and practice 388 00:34:40,572 --> 00:34:45,654 how to do organizing so that when they went back to their towns, they knew how to do organizing. 389 00:34:45,654 --> 00:34:49,556 know, Jane McAlevey, who we feature in the film and is a great union organizer. 390 00:34:49,556 --> 00:34:58,284 She writes about in her great book, No Shortcuts and, you know, raising expectations and raising hell, all these wonderful books she's written about her own education, where she 391 00:34:58,284 --> 00:35:03,328 was trained by mentor organizers about literal brass tacks things. 392 00:35:03,328 --> 00:35:05,250 How do you host a good meeting? 393 00:35:05,250 --> 00:35:08,062 If you host a bad meeting, people never come back to your club. 394 00:35:08,062 --> 00:35:11,440 If you host a good meeting, people want to tell everyone to come to the club. 395 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:18,683 Priya Parker has a great book called The Art of Gathering about how to host good dinner parties or meetings or conversations or things like that. 396 00:35:18,683 --> 00:35:21,704 This is a craft that can be honed. 397 00:35:21,804 --> 00:35:28,948 And it is not easy, but the thing we always have to tell people is it is the only way that anything is gonna get better. 398 00:35:28,948 --> 00:35:31,969 No one is coming to save us. 399 00:35:31,969 --> 00:35:36,391 If we do not learn this craft, everything will get worse. 400 00:35:36,391 --> 00:35:38,692 There will be a worse president. 401 00:35:38,692 --> 00:35:43,232 There will be a worse, worse fascist movement. 402 00:35:43,232 --> 00:35:47,672 There will be worse rotting of our institutions 10 years from now. 403 00:35:47,672 --> 00:35:50,372 And we will be saying, I miss 2025. 404 00:35:50,372 --> 00:35:52,332 Those were the golden days. 405 00:35:52,332 --> 00:35:59,592 If we do not change this and the way to change it is, is it's not easy, but it's simple. 406 00:35:59,592 --> 00:36:02,132 It's starting without these basic questions. 407 00:36:02,132 --> 00:36:04,512 What am I doing alone that I could be doing together? 408 00:36:04,512 --> 00:36:08,132 What is the next right thing that our town needs? 409 00:36:08,224 --> 00:36:12,107 What, how, a lot of organizers say it starts with the ask. 410 00:36:12,107 --> 00:36:16,070 How, who, have I asked someone to join me this month? 411 00:36:16,070 --> 00:36:20,492 And so all these little things, relearning this art, that's gonna be the path. 412 00:36:20,519 --> 00:36:29,042 Yeah, and for, I was just gonna say, for folks that wanna check out any of these books too, if you head to our website, joinyourdifilm.com, we have a book club section where 413 00:36:29,042 --> 00:36:38,680 we've got those books by Jane McAlevey listed, that book by Priya Parker that Pete mentioned, The Art of Gathering, and a lot of other books on how to build back civic life 414 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:39,291 in America. 415 00:36:39,291 --> 00:36:40,152 That's awesome. 416 00:36:40,152 --> 00:36:44,906 I was going to say it makes me think of conflict avoidance as well, right? 417 00:36:44,906 --> 00:36:49,279 That one of the things that has come up with online culture and even with television, right? 418 00:36:49,279 --> 00:36:51,050 You don't like what they're saying, you turn it off. 419 00:36:51,050 --> 00:36:52,041 You change the channel. 420 00:36:52,041 --> 00:36:55,003 You don't like what someone's saying online, you block them. 421 00:36:55,444 --> 00:36:59,047 You can't do that in real life in a face-to-face organization. 422 00:36:59,047 --> 00:37:03,310 You actually have to deal with people who are different than you. 423 00:37:03,310 --> 00:37:09,157 And, you know, this is one of the things that's so interesting about the military because from all parts of America, 424 00:37:09,157 --> 00:37:14,609 people join the military and they haven't been exposed to other cultures. 425 00:37:14,609 --> 00:37:22,171 So there'll be like, you know, rural kids or big city kids haven't been outside of their bubbles. 426 00:37:22,331 --> 00:37:24,572 And the military forces you together. 427 00:37:24,572 --> 00:37:30,164 And honestly, that's why I was like, everyone was like, Mac is going to rush the military. 428 00:37:30,164 --> 00:37:30,754 don't worry. 429 00:37:30,754 --> 00:37:35,001 Like military culture is more likely to break the racists. 430 00:37:35,001 --> 00:37:38,416 then the racists are likely to break the military culture, right? 431 00:37:38,416 --> 00:37:48,549 Because like you'll get over your hangups real fast when you're in a foxhole with a woman and a black man and you have to all work together to get the job done. 432 00:37:48,711 --> 00:37:49,176 So like. 433 00:37:49,176 --> 00:37:51,498 Yeah, two thoughts on that. 434 00:37:51,498 --> 00:37:54,140 One, in a democracy, conflict is good. 435 00:37:54,140 --> 00:37:55,430 We want conflict. 436 00:37:55,430 --> 00:38:01,546 We want people with ideas coming together and having conversations and fighting it out. 437 00:38:01,546 --> 00:38:06,750 But what we've lost is how to have that conflict in a healthy, productive way. 438 00:38:06,778 --> 00:38:16,921 um And you know the space that we're often having that is you know as you mentioned often online Where it's easy to just shut our computer at the end of the night and walk away or 439 00:38:16,921 --> 00:38:26,033 block someone which as you mentioned When we're in person, know, we can't do so We have to learn to work through these things and you know It's in those civic skills that we're 440 00:38:26,033 --> 00:38:36,846 talking about earlier that we learn how to have healthier conflict with each other and maybe actually get to a place um of Consensus which is the whole practice of democracy 441 00:38:37,439 --> 00:38:45,166 And then, as you mentioned, the military is this great institution where we're brushing up against other folks that are different from us. 442 00:38:45,166 --> 00:38:57,238 That is the big difference between in-person connection versus the type of connections we have online is it's embodied encounter with people with different experience. 443 00:38:57,238 --> 00:39:02,354 And that is really how people end up changing their minds is through 444 00:39:02,354 --> 00:39:12,307 you know, exposure to people that are different from them through encounter, real deep encounter, where, you know, in the extreme case of the military, you know, your lives 445 00:39:12,307 --> 00:39:14,737 might be dependent on each other. 446 00:39:14,798 --> 00:39:20,519 But even in our everyday lives, you know, and again, this is where Pete and I stand behind the title of our film. 447 00:39:20,519 --> 00:39:29,846 You know, we had one person we came in touch with as we were touring the film around, who was in a pickleball league in Los Angeles that had become a really big part of their life. 448 00:39:29,846 --> 00:39:40,446 when the wildfires hit there recently and one of her teammates lost their house, they opened up the extra room in their home for that pickleball teammate to come move into 449 00:39:40,446 --> 00:39:42,457 their home while they got back on their feet. 450 00:39:42,457 --> 00:39:50,479 So there are very real things that many of us are vulnerable to every day. 451 00:39:50,479 --> 00:39:55,269 you know, short of, you know, the extreme case of the military where we need each other. 452 00:39:55,269 --> 00:40:01,998 And we need those strong bonds that we make through encounter um in our lives to survive. 453 00:40:01,998 --> 00:40:06,246 So if people want to find the film, where do they go to see it? 454 00:40:06,246 --> 00:40:09,402 And also engaging with you two. 455 00:40:09,402 --> 00:40:13,920 And I'm assuming that there's another project in the works, right? 456 00:40:14,557 --> 00:40:25,562 You know, we've been uh the film, if you go to join or die film dot com, we have had over 500 community screenings that people there's a big book of community screening in the top 457 00:40:25,562 --> 00:40:26,622 right hand corner. 458 00:40:26,622 --> 00:40:30,954 And you can go fill that out and we can help set you up with a screening in your community. 459 00:40:30,954 --> 00:40:36,506 And you can use the film as an excuse or an organizing tool to bring people together locally. 460 00:40:36,506 --> 00:40:40,328 I will say we are also on Netflix if you want to watch the film first. 461 00:40:40,328 --> 00:40:41,070 But 462 00:40:41,070 --> 00:40:43,263 let it know from the co-directors. 463 00:40:43,263 --> 00:40:46,606 We would love you to watch this together through a community screening. 464 00:40:46,606 --> 00:40:48,468 um 465 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:50,352 I'm gonna do it on my community. 466 00:40:50,352 --> 00:40:56,749 And like, I thought you all meant that you had traveled the country and done 400 screenings yourselves. 467 00:40:56,749 --> 00:41:00,724 And that has been sitting in my brain for me to ask you like how you're still alive. 468 00:41:00,724 --> 00:41:07,675 were in our early 20s, we would have maybe loved to have had the join or die bus that was traveling around the country. 469 00:41:07,675 --> 00:41:17,289 But mostly, the flip side of that that we've been really excited by is that these screenings have been a way that people can flex their organizing muscles because we tell 470 00:41:17,289 --> 00:41:20,590 them, you have to go find a venue, you have to go invite people. 471 00:41:20,590 --> 00:41:27,275 We'll give you the film file, we'll give you the designs to make a poster, discussion questions even. 472 00:41:27,275 --> 00:41:29,966 But this is a great way for you to come together. 473 00:41:29,966 --> 00:41:39,560 And one of our favorite things we've heard from people is that the screening of the film started a club or started an initiative and people were still meeting later. 474 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,661 We just heard about one where they started a documentary watching club. 475 00:41:42,661 --> 00:41:47,662 They started with our film and they just had another documentary recently that wasn't our film. 476 00:41:47,662 --> 00:41:52,545 And that made us so happy because it meant that it was leading to people connecting in person. 477 00:41:52,545 --> 00:41:53,875 That's the change that we need. 478 00:41:53,875 --> 00:41:57,828 And we're to be working on this into the foreseeable future. 479 00:41:57,828 --> 00:42:01,929 Next year is the 250th anniversary of the founding of the US. 480 00:42:02,069 --> 00:42:14,494 And we cannot think of anything more significant in terms of the type of country that we could all agree on, which is hardly anything today. 481 00:42:14,494 --> 00:42:17,795 The only way we're going to get there as a country 482 00:42:17,867 --> 00:42:22,311 is from the local on out, from the embodied on out. 483 00:42:22,311 --> 00:42:29,278 There's almost no symbols anymore that everyone can agree on or anything coming from the top down that doesn't polarize us. 484 00:42:29,278 --> 00:42:39,307 The only way there's anything that's gonna make this be a 250th that feels good is if we go to the root of what a country is and it's a group of people deciding to have a shared 485 00:42:39,307 --> 00:42:40,688 destiny together. 486 00:42:40,688 --> 00:42:43,650 And that only comes through real embodied connections. 487 00:42:43,650 --> 00:42:44,675 So we hope. 488 00:42:44,675 --> 00:42:48,461 the number one thing you could do in honor of the 250th is join something locally. 489 00:42:48,461 --> 00:42:57,097 And you know, this embodied part is so interesting because this is one of the other things about America that makes us so different from anyone else. 490 00:42:57,097 --> 00:43:00,929 We have so many damn people, you know? 491 00:43:00,929 --> 00:43:05,953 And like on my end, I see all these fears about like, he's gonna cancel the elections. 492 00:43:05,953 --> 00:43:17,861 Like, okay, if 1 million Americans get themselves to Washington DC physically and march on the mall, like they'll give us elections back real fast. 493 00:43:17,861 --> 00:43:18,181 Right? 494 00:43:18,181 --> 00:43:25,874 Like we actually have far too many people spread out over far too much land to be controlled by force. 495 00:43:26,054 --> 00:43:27,795 But it takes showing up. 496 00:43:27,795 --> 00:43:28,185 Right. 497 00:43:28,185 --> 00:43:37,757 And we are out of we are out of the habit of physically responding and going out and doing stuff when our government. 498 00:43:37,757 --> 00:43:51,388 Ralph Nader ideas is he said, one, every movement in history was done by about 1 % of Americans supported by he always just the asterisk said supported by a majority, which is 499 00:43:51,388 --> 00:43:54,079 1 % Americans are the ones who did the legwork. 500 00:43:54,079 --> 00:43:59,422 And so we have 400 million people, can you get 4 million Americans to do something if it's that important? 501 00:43:59,422 --> 00:44:01,974 I'm sure we can, you know, and 502 00:44:01,974 --> 00:44:06,274 And so, but it all takes that art of showing up and get connected. 503 00:44:06,274 --> 00:44:17,230 And for those that feel overwhelmed by that $400 million, start with those neighbors that are right on your street, because that is certainly how every movement has started. 504 00:44:17,230 --> 00:44:17,781 Beautiful. 505 00:44:17,781 --> 00:44:29,220 uh Pete, Rebecca, tell us again how folks can watch the film, where to go, how to connect with you, how to engage, and uh anything that you've got new that you're working on. 506 00:44:29,220 --> 00:44:31,178 We'd love to hear about that as well. 507 00:44:31,178 --> 00:44:33,979 Sure, so head to joinerdifilm.com. 508 00:44:33,979 --> 00:44:37,131 We've got info there about how to host a screening. 509 00:44:37,131 --> 00:44:44,174 You can preview the film if you wanna check it out before hosting a group screening on Netflix by searching Joinerdifilm. 510 00:44:44,174 --> 00:44:47,076 It's hidden in the player deep behind all the true crime. 511 00:44:47,076 --> 00:44:47,927 But we are there. 512 00:44:47,927 --> 00:44:52,078 And yeah, we would love to hear your thoughts. 513 00:44:52,078 --> 00:44:58,253 You can send us emails at Joinerdifilm and we're also there with that same handle on all the social. 514 00:44:58,253 --> 00:45:00,605 quote unquote, media, anti-social media. 515 00:45:00,605 --> 00:45:02,111 Thank you so much. 516 00:45:02,285 --> 00:45:05,729 But no, we're just excited about screenings every week. 517 00:45:05,729 --> 00:45:13,610 If you can go to our upcoming screenings, you'll see we have new ones coming every week and it just delights us anytime we hear that someone joins the club because of this film. 518 00:45:13,610 --> 00:45:20,713 Yeah, and if you don't want to host, you can head to our calendar on our website too and see one coming to your area to attend. 519 00:45:20,713 --> 00:45:23,664 And thanks for such an amazing conversation. 520 00:45:23,664 --> 00:45:30,197 One of the things that cults do is try to establish that they are the community. 521 00:45:30,197 --> 00:45:31,487 They're the community. 522 00:45:31,487 --> 00:45:32,888 They're the way of life. 523 00:45:32,888 --> 00:45:34,158 They're the one. 524 00:45:34,158 --> 00:45:38,510 This is the reason I don't let anyone call me the knitting cult lady. 525 00:45:38,610 --> 00:45:49,374 And just simply, I say all the time, like a cult inoculation is understanding that there are many valid ways to live a life. 526 00:45:49,374 --> 00:45:49,804 Yes. 527 00:45:49,804 --> 00:45:50,658 oh 528 00:45:50,836 --> 00:45:52,267 is so diverse. 529 00:45:52,267 --> 00:45:58,370 If you get out in your area, you're gonna find people. 530 00:45:58,470 --> 00:46:08,865 And finally, like 15 years ago, when I went to intelligence school, the internet coming down was the most dangerous thing that could happen in the world. 531 00:46:08,865 --> 00:46:10,257 And it remains so. 532 00:46:10,257 --> 00:46:13,883 And that's something people need to be aware of. 533 00:46:13,883 --> 00:46:16,005 because our elites own the internet. 534 00:46:16,005 --> 00:46:27,443 And so from a literal threat perspective, get out in your neighborhoods, get to know your neighbors, talk about what special skills you all have, pay attention to what things 535 00:46:27,443 --> 00:46:29,103 people know how to do. 536 00:46:29,103 --> 00:46:37,361 I always say pay lots of attention to the kids who grew up in religious extremism or the military veterans, because we know how to do a lot of weird stuff. 537 00:46:37,361 --> 00:46:40,283 But like, getting to know. 538 00:46:40,609 --> 00:46:52,653 Rebecca was saying like who's in your neighborhood that can help you with this or with that, local action is going to be how we like not only save our own lives but the country 539 00:46:52,653 --> 00:47:02,637 and it is also literally the way to make yourself cult-proof by just being involved in enough different things that nothing can dominate you. 540 00:47:02,637 --> 00:47:04,011 Yes, amen. 541 00:47:04,130 --> 00:47:04,650 Amen. 542 00:47:04,650 --> 00:47:13,262 Rebecca and Pete Davis, thank you so much for joining us and we encourage everyone to go watch the film, Join or Die. 543 00:47:13,262 --> 00:47:17,658 And for Daniela Mesteneck Young, Knitting Cult Lady, I'm Scott Lloyd. 544 00:47:17,658 --> 00:47:22,224 We'll see you on the next episode of Cults and the Culting of America. 545 00:47:22,686 --> 00:47:23,242 Thanks so much. 546 00:47:23,242 --> 00:47:24,218 Join a club. 547 00:47:24,218 --> 00:47:24,729 Thank you. 548 00:47:24,729 --> 00:47:26,091 Appreciate it. 549 00:47:26,091 --> 00:47:27,145 Thanks all.