Ichan Stall: [00:00:00] I like to say that I go kind of like a mile deep with the founders versus a mile wide and inch deep with 'em, right?

Back then I was solely interested in generating enough money to buy Air Jordans.

He said: "The difference between one and zero is infinite."

People do business with people they trust and like, and it takes time to earn that trust both ways. 

I went from like a 60% no rejection to like a 70% yes. And getting paid.

I was just all over the place trying to make it a mission to grow this thing. 

Andrew Kazlow: Welcome to the Diligent Observer, where we help angel investors see what most miss. I'm your host, Andrew, and every week we explore what works, what doesn't, and why through conversations with experienced startup investors and operators.

My guest today is Ichan Stall, co-chairman of the North Texas Angel Network, who has developed a fascinating mile deep versus mile wide methodology for assessing startup founders. In this episode, Ichan reveals his specific [00:01:00] tactics for testing founder coachability and vulnerability. During due diligence explains how he balances thorough evaluation with speed of decision making and shares in detail how a teenage lawn mowing business on a military base taught him the competitive advantages that he now looks for when evaluating entrepreneurs.

I hope you enjoy learning from Ichan as much as I did.

Ichan thank you for being with me today.

Ichan Stall: Yeah, yeah. Good morning. Thank you. Great to, uh, be here. I really appreciate it. 

Andrew Kazlow: Well, we are live from the Dallas-Fort Worth Startup Week. This is the 10th Annual DFW Startup Week. Uh, this is my second to attend and I'm just so thrilled to be here today with you. Uh, you have made it very clear to me over the last couple days getting to know you that, this community is just fantastic. There's so much activity, so much energy, and you are kind of at the center of it. So, Ichan, my first question for you is, what are you excited about right now? 

Ichan Stall: I think, um, you know. a lot of people will say AI or things like that. I'm [00:02:00] more interested about building this community up in the ecosystem.

So, I'm excited about meeting new, uh, and, you know, familiar faces and things like that. But really just continuing to help build this community up. You know, we're a fairly large city. And I think, uh, we haven't had, um, really the success yet that you see other ecosystems across the country have achieved for the size of a city that we are.

And, uh, but I'm really encouraged because I've been, this is my fourth startup week. I feel like they've doubled each year. So, it just gives me a lot of confidence that we're doing the right things. We're building up this ecosystem, getting these founders funded or, or if that's what they're looking for or resources, um, and helping them however wage way we can to.

Make sure that they thrive and succeed. 

Andrew Kazlow: Well, I've certainly seen and heard how you've participated in some of that activity. I'd love to maybe as a starting point hear more about your story and how you entered into the, [00:03:00] the DFW ecosystem in particular. I know you came from Silicon Valley and, and here you are.

So maybe tell me a little bit more about the story. 

Ichan Stall: Yeah, so I'll, I'll, I'll go back to my days when I was a young teenager actually. 

Andrew Kazlow: Going all the way back. 

Ichan Stall: Yeah. So that was, uh, so. I grew up in a military environment, living overseas all my entire life. My dad was in the army, went, uh, it was from Georgia.

He left college or left high school, go to college, never returned back to where he grew up, joined the military and then was off overseas. Met my mom in Japan. I'm half Japanese and uh, and I was pretty much born and raised in Japan on a military base. And my dad really instilled, uh, a great work ethic.

And he was, uh, always successful in what he did. He got a number of awards in the military and ultimately I think that kind of just through osmosis, you know, and he always said, look on work hard, work smart, [00:04:00] think out of the box. And um, so when I was a young teenager, you know, I trying to make some money.

I took on a paper route like anyone else in the military base and it's a little more confined because you're on a military base, so you can't leave the base when you're a young kid and you know, and at the age of 13 or 14, I'm riding my bike around or whatever it might be. I, I kind of ceased a paper route to take on landscaping.

And lemme just tell you kind of a little bit about that. So, uh, and just kinda give you a, uh, you know, a context here. On a military base, you don't travel with heavy equipment. So, most military 

installations that I was on, you didn't even travel with a car. You bought the car there. Especially because if you go to another base, that car may not be legal because you might drive on the other side of the road.

Kinda the same thing with heavy furniture or heavy, you know, lawn landscaping equipment. You didn't really travel with a lawnmower or a weed whacker. So, what we did on the military base is you had to go to the local [00:05:00] fire station and rent the lawnmower. Okay. 

Andrew Kazlow: You had to rent the lawnmower from the fire station. 

Ichan Stall: That's right. I know it's strange, but I'll tell you, it'll, and I'll tell you as you get to understand the story here, I got into mowing yards on the military base. Now you can think of the military as high fade cuts, your low, you know, short hair. Same thing with the grass. Grass needs to be short.

Andrew Kazlow: That's right. 

Ichan Stall: Otherwise, the military police or someone from the base who's overseeing kind of the local community will come and give you a note and say, you need to have this yard mow in the next three to five days. Right, because it's, it's looking kind of rough. 

Andrew Kazlow: You're telling me the military bases have HOAs too?

Ichan Stall: In a lot of ways, yes. 

Andrew Kazlow: That's wild. 

Ichan Stall: No penalties though, other than just kind of a warning saying get it done, get it mowed. So, I decided, hey, I think there's a business here. And um, and I wasn't the first one to do this. I saw other people mowing yards. So you go to the fire station in the morning, and so in the summertime, this is [00:06:00] my summer job.

I go to the fire station, rent the lawnmower. You have a government issued ID and you give 'em the ID. And then they issue the lawnmower. These were gas powered, very heavy lawnmowers. Now I'm much older than you, so this is back in the 80's and and 90's. Okay? And you then go and rent the lawnmower and you literally push it.

You gotta make sure it's got gas. They usually fill it up in the morning for you. But every day you go there at, I don't know, seven, nine o'clock in the morning to rent it. And you go off and you start walking around the neighborhood mowing yards. And, that was kind of really, okay, I'm starting a business, I guess in a lot of ways.

I didn't know what I was really doing, but I knew I was making some money and I had friends that I was growing up with who were also doing this with me, but they were doing their own thing, own yards. At the end of the day, we'd get together, come back and meet at the Domino's, local Domino's or Burger King or Pizza Hut, and we'd kind of pull our money outta money out of a pocket and say, who made the most money?

Kind of bragging rights. Now, back [00:07:00] then I was solely interested in generating enough money to buy Air Jordans. That was, I wanted those, you know, those nice kicks. Right? So, I look at it and I look at everyone else, and mind you, I have a really, in my opinion, I had a really strong work ethic. Again, a lot of from my father, even my brother attempted to do this, and he didn't have that work ethic.

I never even told him this, but in my opinion, he didn't have, he was a, he was lazy. But my friends who I knew really well, they didn't have that work ethic that I had. Some of 'em did, but not as much. And yet, at the end of the day, every day, we'd com, you know, just compare who made the most money. And I made usually more than anyone else, but not that much.

I actually started getting pissed. I'm sweating, I'm working hard, and I'm figuring out that I'm not making that much more money and I should be making more money than them. So, I started thinking, how do I make improvements? I went to my pops and my pop said, [00:08:00] son, think out of the box. Think efficiency.

Think about what you can do different to improve even the smallest things. And I know you weren't here, I don't think you were here for the session with Chris Barton, but he said something really powerful. He said: "The difference between one and zero is infinite." And what I mean by that is just one little small detail could be a a a really sizable or infinite gap between you and your competition.

He gave an example of Dropbox, where Dropbox was competing against other kind of tools that were uploading documents in the cloud and the other competitors and Chris Barton had worked at Dropbox, and this is why he was telling the story. He said, our competitors were touting just one click, upload to the cloud, or download to my local desktop.

Dropbox said, uh-uh, you just drag it and it's already in the cloud. Not even one click. That one click was the infinite difference that allowed them to succeed and the others fall to the wayside. Like the Dodo Bird, [00:09:00] right? Really they went extinct and Dropbox continued on. From one to zero, one click to no clicks.

Very, very powerful. Now, obviously I didn't know him back then. That mindset for me was how do I improve? So what did I do? Remember I told you this is gas powered lawnmower. I pushed it around everywhere. I had to go rent it from a local fire station. I started to pull the lawnmower with my bicycle with a bungee cord.

Okay? So I could go faster. Yes. Because now I'm moving at a much accelerated path than everyone else is pushing it. I would be the first one to the fire station, so no one else saw me go do this. 'Cause I was there before everyone else. Right. Early bird gets the worm. First time when it was open, I was there pronto, ready to rent the lawnmower.

The other thing that I did, and I mentioned again, gas-powered. What would you surmise from that? 

Fuel efficiency. [00:10:00] I carried a notepad with me, took notes, little like my, literally like spreadsheet. Back then there was about 20 or 25 lawnmowers that they had that they would have available for you.

Lined up in groups of five. Five rows of five. Five rows of five, and they were all numbered, 1 through like 25 on the outside. I've started to study the lawnmowers and the fuel efficiency of them. Also, which ones from a maintenance standpoint broke down a lot because when they break down, you gotta take it back to the fire station and they would fix it.

Or if it's burning a lot of fuel more so than others, it's a problem. The more time I'm away from mowing the lawns, the yards, the less money I'm making. Right? So what do I do? Over the course of like few weeks, I start to analyze each and every lawnmower

Andrew Kazlow: I would love to have seen this.

I mean, I just imagine 14-year-old, Ichan pulling lawnmowers around this military base on his bike. I mean, how many times did you get people stopping asking you, what the heck are you doing? Right. 

But what's happening? 

Ichan Stall: But people started copying me when they found out I was doing that. [00:11:00] So that was a validation.

I'm doing something right. Even back then, again, I don't really know I was doing other than just my dad said, Hey, I won't tell your brother, but think outta the box. Think efficiency. The other thing that I did was that, as I got older and I was, I, I had, uh, either a friend help me or when I had my license, I would pull the, I would put the mo the lawnmower in the back of the trunk.

Now I'm going even super duper fast, right? But there's a couple other things. So, first year happens. It's done. I'm making some money. We all compare, you know, every day with I'm, I'm making more money for sure now, but still not to my satisfaction. Still pissed off. So, during the next year, because you stop during the summertime or or fall break, you go back to school and high school.

So, now fast forward a year, I've been thinking about all the things I could do on top of that. Right now I know the fuel efficiency. I had marked down which ones were the most fuel efficient. So the next year when I come back, I have like a little sharpie underneath the lawnmower. I marked off the top seven lawnmowers that were the best [00:12:00] operating lawnmowers.

Okay? Remember, I'm there because before anyone else, so I can get the pick of the litter. I always typically had number one and number two. Number seven was the worst of the best. All the others were not operational very well. Some broke down a lot more. Tires didn't work. Wobbly, wobbly. You hold the handle to mow it, it wouldn't work, or you're trying to pull it and it won't start very well.

All that stuff came into play. 

Andrew Kazlow: Mm. 

Ichan Stall: And I ranked it one through seven. Always usually getting number one or two. Remember I told you they lined them up, so every morning I got there, I would find out where number one is. And I would take this other six, move 'em to the back of the line. I would move everything up.

So when everyone walked up, okay, when everyone walked up, they were getting all the lousy lawnmowers. And mo most times they never went to the back row where all the best lawnmowers were at. So now, now what I don't know, but I understand is I now have a competitive advantage by thinking out of the box.

Giving people a disadvantage, right? 'Cause now they're operating off of junk, you know, inefficient fuel [00:13:00] inefficient lawnmowers that have a lot of maintenance issues. 

Andrew Kazlow: And you've got a trade secret right there. 

Ichan Stall: Right. Another thing, and I'll wrap this up here on this story, but, I came with an idea to build loyalty. I built a little piece of paper and wrote yard of the month. They laminated it. Basically some chopsticks or whatever stuck in the ground. Made people proud to have that display in their yard. What did they do? They would off and shared it with other people in their neighborhood. Ichan mows my yard.

He should mow your yard or it was a referral system building up loyalty. And remember, in the military and the military base, they want that yard looking tidy and clean just like, you know, military operates, right? So, now all of a sudden they see this in the yard, right? And I would do like, "Powered by Ichan", you know, something like that, you know?

And it was kind of a pun, ONTs, right? Powered lawnmower. Um, the other thing that I did to kind of just, the last thing I really did was, I would always go and ask people to mow the yard. Oftentimes more, [00:14:00] more so than not, it was the wife, the spouse who was home and the husband was usually working, not all the time, but more times than not.

And then when I'd knock on the door and ask, I mow your yard, your yard's looking really tall, the grass looking tall. She would say, no, my husband would do it, or my son or daughter may do it later on. And I'd get a lot of no's. A lot of rejections. Right. And so it's a numbers game, like sales, you just hit more and more yards.

Ultimately people say yes, things like that. I got the idea thinking after about halfway through that second season, I'm gonna stop asking. I'm a 15-year-old kid. I'm gonna try and play the emotional feel sorry kind of game side, and I'm just gonna mow the yard. And so this whole thing about asking for permission versus forgiveness.

Again, I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know that term, but that's what I, that's what I end up doing. I end up mowing the yards and then knocking doors and saying, excuse me, ma'am, I just mowed your yard. Just wanna let you know it was looking really tall. And she'll say, sometimes she'll say, oh, you shouldn't never done that.

My husband could have done that, but thank you. 

Andrew Kazlow: Mm-hmm. 

Ichan Stall: I never [00:15:00] would ask for any money and they would just say, how much are I give you? I say, oh, I usually charge $5. And they would like, here you go. I went from like a 60% no rejection to like a 70% yes. And getting paid. You're talking about a difference.

Significant difference now in my sales. 

Andrew Kazlow: Which, I'm sure more than accounted for, the yards that you mowed, and they said, oh, thanks. 

Ichan Stall: Right. 

Andrew Kazlow: I never handed you cash. 

Ichan Stall: Right. That's right. You get something that would not pay, pay you. Here's the other thing though. They would say, oh, thank you for doing this. Also,

can you come back in two weeks? And I'm gonna refer you to somebody else. So again, referral, loyalty. Right? Building up loyalty, trust. Right? 

Andrew Kazlow: Yeah. 

Ichan Stall: The last thing I did was, I decided to expand my business and start pruning the yards. So, it wasn't just cutting the grass, it was like doing the bushes and stuff like that.

So, kind of a little feature functionality that would add a little bit, Hey, I'll, I'll do the yard, with and prune your yards, or whatever it might be for an extra $2. 

Andrew Kazlow: And this was the start of Ichan's Landscaping Empire. 

Ichan Stall: I don't know about an empire but [00:16:00] I started reading books on how to get rich quick.

I learned, I started just understanding like, I like the idea of making money in a way, but I realized hard work, working smart would maybe pay off one day, and I knew that that was kind of when I was, had that entrepreneur bug born. I also realized further down the road that I still need to go in the corporate world and get some experience, but that really is what gave me the insight and the thought.

And also, it made me be very analytical. Uh, which is why I studied statistics for a hot minute in college. But ultimately, I love sales. I love meeting people and networking, as you probably have ascertained now, surmise from just being here. Just loved working with people and always felt I can help. And, and that was the mentality I always had helping others.

Andrew Kazlow: So, I'd love to explore more on, on how you do that. I mean, it's clear that you've got a significant depth of relationship. You hustle even in your relationship building. But [00:17:00] one of the topics that angel investors are always thinking about is, how do I like suss out what, whether or not this person or this set of people

can cut it. Do they have the grit, do they have the hustle? Will they be able to pull through in the long haul? That's a question and there's a million ways to suss that out. Yeah. But I'd love to hear more about how you do that today in, in your strategy. Like tell us a little bit more about what— 

Ichan Stall: Yeah, that's a good question.

Uh, Andrew, experience teaches you a lot, right? I've been angel investing for almost 10 years. But I've been in a lot of ways, psychologically studying people for a long time. As I told you, I grew up in the military. I've been to 70 plus countries in my life. That has given me a huge unique ability to connect.

In a very meaningful way, you could tell me, Hey! I lived here and I can, there's a good chance I could [00:18:00] understand and connect with you about something where you're from or something you've done. I've also owned a lot of different things. I've tried a lot of different things also. Being well-traveled has allowed me to be also well-cultured.

And whether you're from Singapore or from France or from South America, there's a good chance that I can relate and share something about you. And I feel like if you're genuine and authentic, you know, people can smell the bs. 

Andrew Kazlow: Yeah. 

Ichan Stall: And can pick up on that quickly. So being authentic, being genuine, but also as a kid, I was always very curious. And now you've heard people say startup curiosity maybe, or that's the kind of term sometimes we use. I grew up that way. My brother used to say, shut the F up Ichan, why are you asking all these damn questions? Pops doesn't wanna hear all that. And my dad was like, ask away son.

Why is this, this color? Why is that doing this? Why, how, you know, and I was a kid breaking stuff down and seeing how, how did it, how did this thing work? Always asking questions. So, when it comes to angel investing, I'm asking in kind [00:19:00] of little way subtly testing out the founder and the team that he or she has assembled.

But ultimately, your gut tells you a little bit about the behavior they have. Right, because ultimately the team dynamic that you as a startup have really can be a make or break for your startup, right? How do you deal with, How do you communicate as a team? Do you communicate cohesively? Are you guys all in alignment marching to the same goal?

Probably one of the most important, how do you deal when you have a major issue or conflict or a major problem that could potentially be fatal. How do you, do you stand up and fight like badgers in a corner, or do you run for the hills with a tail between your legs? That really is a tell tale sign.

Right. You heard the, the tenacity and grit not giving up. And I mentioned, do you, do you have startup curiosity? Do you ask questions and, and try and learn? Right. I've met founders who don't think, who know, who know, who believe they know everything, 'cause they've been in this industry for a long time.

I've been doing this for a long time. I'm still learning. There's [00:20:00] no way that they, you know, have learned everything. So it's really about just kind of almost in a way dissecting and slicing and dicing up that individual and just really getting to understand them. You know, nothing against a startup, certainly that is a, comes into play, but I really look deep into the founders. And understand, you know, their kind of psyche and, and do a little test with them and just see what kind of questions, how they answer and behave and, you know, and what teams they've assembled more than probably anything else. 

Andrew Kazlow: So I, I wanna get a little more tactical on this because I think this is an area that is really difficult for a lot of angels because it's the one that in theory, takes the most time, right?

I have to sit down. You, you know, I'm, I'm hearing the pitch and I see the, the presentation. They're standing up front answering questions, and every founder is gritty and has the right, right, you know, has what it takes from the stage. But I think the, what, what separates great investors from those are less great is the [00:21:00] capacity in many ways to double click and to kind of get, get a layer deeper or two or three to see the guts of how a founder actually

operates because it's no one's coming to you and saying, here's a time when I totally failed, or here's how I'm, you know, not cut out for this. Like, that's not the story that, that gets told. So, like what are your, some of the, the tactics or strategies that you have found successful, that would be helpful.

Ichan Stall: Yeah. So, I like to say that I go kind of like a mile deep with the founders versus a mile wide and inch deep with 'em, right? Uh, and I say that in the sense that. I shared the story earlier about me working as a, you know, in the landscaping business, right? I've always felt I go that extra mile, right?

Because, and I use the Chris Barton analogy here as well, the one to zero. Small little additional effort can be an infinite wide gap that separates you from your competition, makes you unique, or maybe gives you that IP or defensibility that you know us as investors really are looking [00:22:00] for. So, I expect the founders, or I hope that they'll go that extra mile, do anything and everything.

You're right. Most founders will tell you they got tenacity, grit, don't give up, persistent, right? I get that. But, there's a level of how further will they go? 

Andrew Kazlow: Hmm. 

Ichan Stall: Right? You know, Bill Chinn, the CEO of The DEC Network, he always says, look, Ichan, you're the last one here and you're the first one in the morning here.

I take great pride and put the hard work. You know, I spent a lot of time in San Francisco and although I wasn't a fan of the San Francisco 49ers, using another sports analogy here, but Jerry Rice was a gentleman that I really respect as a wide receiver. He always said, look, I'm not the fastest, I'm not the strongest.

I'm not the tallest. But no one's gonna outwork me. And I will run these routes to perfection. And he's now arguably, if not the best wide receiver, right? Anything about Michael Jordan, right? He got cut from his high school basketball team and it just motivated him to be better and stronger and be a better team player and, [00:23:00] and get other people

motivated and, and, and did he as a leader or do they as a leader, Jerry O'Neal, do they make others better? Same thing with founders, right? You've got to be able to delegate. You can't do this all on your own. You've gotta be able to delegate and can you motivate that team. And can you take them with you and lead this team to the promised landing and return and exit or return, you know, a a an ROI for angel investors, do you have that extra drive that goes from that one to zero and gives you that infinite advantage. And I look in those founders and like, just say, Hey, are, are you thinking about doing this? Or will, can I, will I see you here tomorrow morning at this time? Oh no, I can't make it. Or, you know. I'm not saying that's exactly who they are, and there could be other things that are ongoing with them and maybe they have a doctor's appointment, whatever.

But over time, right. I get to know them really well. I go out and have coffee with them before I ever invest. I gotta understand that who they are, how they [00:24:00] behave, right? People do business with people they trust and like, and it takes time to earn that trust both ways. Yep. And that gives me a great picture and an insight into, you know, into them and the team that he or she possibly is assembled, has assembled or will be assembling.

Andrew Kazlow: So, I'd love if you could give an example or two as specific as you're comfortable of a founder that you felt like really characterized this or maybe that at first you were, you know, hesitant about, but then as you went this mile deep, you saw something that most people missed that got you really excited about the opportunity.

Ichan Stall: Yeah. I'm not gonna name a founder per se, but I'll, I'll just kind of describe a, a founder that I really had a lot of respect, admiration, and um, you know, obviously there are a lot of characteristics that you're looking to find, we've talked about. But some of the things also that are really important is like,

vulnerability,

Andrew Kazlow: Mm.

Ichan Stall: Uh, coachable. 

Andrew Kazlow: Mm. 

Ichan Stall: Which means that there could be investible, right? I had a founder who was a little bit, thought they knew [00:25:00] everything, but at the very least said, look, I recognize I don't know everything, and I need help. I'm looking for guidance. I believe I'm onto a really great product or a solution, or have I, I'm solving a problem and have a great solution, and

I just gave him some suggestions, right? I'm not here to, my journey is different from a founder's journey, but I'm here to say, look, here's some of the things that maybe I would see could be challenges or could be problematic for you. But you need to kind of experience that for yourself and, you know, grow that thick skin and really have some failures as well.

Small failures that allow you to adjust and adapt. And so, in the case of this founder, he just became ultimately open to feedback. Very vulnerable, was a sponge, asking questions, and I had a really great respect. He now runs a business, and that is doing well. They just went, they just became profitable.

[00:26:00] And I have a significant investment in the company. 

Andrew Kazlow: Mm. 

Ichan Stall: I believe they're soon to get an LOI to potentially be acquired. And this is four years in the making. And so it also makes me motivated to find more investors or people to support him and clients, things like that.

When you find that person who is just willing to listen and being, again, very open and coachable and looking at, um, a lens much, you know, wider. And again, when you find someone that is very open, transparent, honest, you know, and they're authentic and genuine, all that. Again, plays into, plays into that. And then of course, I leverage my gut, all right?

I've been doing this for a long time, so my gut tells me, man, he's doing all the things, or she's doing all the right things here, and those founders stand out to me because the product may be inferior, but if they outwork everyone else in the [00:27:00] competition, right? You've probably heard this a lot, Andrew, ideas are dime a dozen.

Andrew Kazlow: Mm. 

Ichan Stall: It's about execution, right? Can you form the right strategic partnership? Can you form the right team? Can you hustle? Do you go the extra mile to make this a go and, and make this engine hum? Because look, especially if you're in a technology world, especially with AI now today, you may have an inferior product today, but now you may have a superior product with how technology is so you can make those improvements.

But the hard work, that drive, that's something that comes, you know, sometimes. And that in our belly area, you know? And, and, and so I wanna see that. I wanna see that fire and that drive and everyone says they have the fire, but I wanna see that extra mile, right? Because I know that I've done that and been successful.

I've had my failures and then I've had my successes and uh, and so that really just starts to focus again on the founder. 

Andrew Kazlow: So, how do you balance this with speed of decision making? In my experience, there's this [00:28:00] kind of, this tension between, Uh, I, I have to get in if this is a great opportunity that like there's some pressure to close, to make a commitment, but going a mile deep, that's not something that happens overnight.

Like you said, it takes time to build these relationships. 

Ichan Stall: Right. 

Andrew Kazlow: Obviously there's strategy, you know, show up, be at the event, get there early, get there late, get, get that extra time with the founder just to get to know them personally. But any other comments or thoughts on how to balance this tension of speed of decision making, you know, limited capacity, right? Most of us are running businesses or families, you know, can only invest so much time. Like, talk me through how you think about this tension. 

Ichan Stall: Part of what you said, uh, describe is why I do it to get to, to know them a little bit right now.

Remember, in a lot of ways, us as angel investors, we invest in everything every else is, so in a lot of ways I'm fighting competition amongst my own angel investors. Now, I'm, I'm that loser too, fighting against all the monks. Right. Because look, we teach founders try and be unique and different.

 Well, I try follow [00:29:00] what I preach as even an angel investor. What am I gonna find in a founder that no one else will know? Right. So, I look as, yes, I want my fellow angels to invest with me, right? To help protect and minimize that risk, right? But at the same time, I'm also competing in a way, perhaps.

Um, so, you talk about speed, I leverage some of my confidants as well when I get an idea that I think this person is worthy or of moving, moving forward, I'll reach out to some of my fellow NTAN members and ask them, Hey, what do you think? 

Because do I have blind eye, you know, goggles on right now, tunnel vision and you know, I'm just so in love that I, I'm missing something so I can get that validation or second kind of odd pair of eyes to also look at from their perspective, from a different perspective, just to kind of maybe sometimes validate all the times.

Right. Again, I've been doing this for a while. 

Yeah. 

Um, but, I just try and spend as much time, 'cause if I'm gonna ultimately invest in them, I don't want my money [00:30:00] to go down the toilet bowl, right? I wanna see a 5x, 10x, 20x multiple perhaps on, on my investment and r and ROI of some sort in the next 3, 5, 7 years.

So, I spend that extra careful time getting to know them and I think it is highly recognized by the founders. 

Andrew Kazlow: Well, it just seems like it's fun. Like— 

Ichan Stall: Oh, I love it. 

Andrew Kazlow: Every time I see you, you just, you. It's fun. Like we're all here to have a good time. Yeah. We wanna make some money, but I see just how much you enjoy it as well.

Ichan Stall: Yeah, and that's probably really where the passion is for me. 

Andrew Kazlow: Yeah. 

Ichan Stall: Andrew is, yes, I'm doing angel investing and I wanna make money like everyone else here when we do this stuff, but more than anything, I wanna try help build this community. I thrive on meeting people. I told you I lived all over the world.

You know, uh, I enjoyed sales, but my genuine passion is helping others. And I can't help 'em if I don't know who they are. It's very difficult. Not impossible, but very difficult where I can sure go donate money or donate time to just let getting to know [00:31:00] individuals, understanding them, what their challenges are.

Look, I'm not, I don't have all the answers, but I might know that Andrew does this really well, that I don't do very well. I'd be glad to introduct, introduce them. And you guys saw it today or this week here. I've been introducing people all over. I know there could be some great meaningful connections.

Um, but I thoroughly thrive on meeting people, helping others, and this is why I'm really passionate about helping to build this ecosystem here in Dallas and, and really put us on the map, you know. Um, you know, we got a sy you know, we got Austin down the street and there, you know, top three, top five. You know, entrepreneurial ecosystems in the country and we're not there yet, but I'm very hopeful that we can get there and it, but it takes, you know, a lot of getting out into the community.

I do networking events two to three times a week, and that was part of, kind of a agreement that I had with my wife and I moved here from California, you know, to get, I didn't know anyone. You know, and now, recently, I received the Entrepreneur of [00:32:00] the Decade award. Bill Chinn the CEO said, hey, Ichan. And I was like, I've been here four years.

I'm really nominated. And one of my fellow nominees was Trey Bowles, who was a pillar in this community. And I ended up beating him and he probably didn't promote it 'cause he probably would've maybe crushed me, but—

Andrew Kazlow: I'll ask him about that later.

Ichan Stall: Yeah. But Bill and Trey said this too. They said, look, what you've done in the last three and a half years or so is equal to a 10 year impact. 

Andrew Kazlow: Okay. So let's talk, let's talk a little bit more about that. I'd be remiss if I didn't ask about the work you've done in particular with the North Texas Angel Network or NTAN.

Ichan Stall: Sure. 

Andrew Kazlow: Tell me a little bit more about the story there. I mean, NTAN has had a remarkable season of growth over this last few years, and for many of our listeners may not be as familiar. So, tell me more about that story and what you've done, uh, to, to support that community's growth. 

Ichan Stall: Sure. Yeah. When I first moved here, Andrew, um, I didn't know anyone. As I just said, I knew I had like one friend maybe from [00:33:00] high school that lived here. Other than that was just my wife's family that I knew. And so, I really had to get to know people and I really quickly recognized that the entrepreneurial community was fragmented, in my opinion, was a little bit fragmented and a lot of people didn't have places to go.

They know where to look to. So, I just started networking. I was introduced from a, a buddy of mine here, actually our, our realtor, who was my wife's friend. And he said, look, I know a gentleman over at the North Texas Angel Network and I'll introduce you to him. And this is back in 2022. I think it was early 2022 maybe.

And so, I went as a guest, attended a couple NTAN meetings. And I looked at it and I'm like, you know, having come from the Bay Area and participated in some angel network, you know, events there. I'm like, I saw 13, 14, maybe 15 people I'd asked, you know, that director at the time, how many deals have you done?

Any exits? What's the IRR? [00:34:00] Um, tell me a little bit more about companies that you're looking for. What's the deal flow like? It was poor results across the board. Maybe 15 members not active. They had not done any deals. The reputation, unfortunately, was a bad one. You know, as I understood, they would go to country clubs and have their meetings and they would charge founders like a thousand dollars to apply and then they would, you know, what kind of perception wise, and I have two founders that pitched in NTAN back in the day and they told me, man, these members were just sitting on the high hog off of our applications at the country club and, um, live in the good life off of our thousand dollar application.

And, um. I thought, I'm not joining this. This is not an angel network. And so I declined it and then the gentleman said, look, how can we get you on board? I said, the only way I'm joining this is you gimme a board seat. That's my only way I'm coming on board. They, I guess they deliberated and they came back and said, we'll make that happen.

We really wanna start growing. This was in right [00:35:00] at the beginning of COVID, so you know, like everything else kind of had to. It was pretty much dead. So I joined the board and with a team of Mike Wilkes and Jeff Murphy, and, uh, and, and Trey and Bill Chinn and the other, we started kind of figuring out how to revamp this, and I made a mission to bring on memberships, but not just memberships, but diverse ones.

You know, earlier as I described, that 15 member was mostly white men and I just know that we needed more diversity. Um, all they were really seeing from a deal flow was like real estate and oil and gas. Few healthcare here and there sprinkled in. But I, I come from tech, wanted to bring in tech, wanted to bring in, you know, SaaS, wanted, bring in all these other things, right?

That I knew existed here because I met all these founders. So, I took it as a personal mission to grow the North Texas Angel Network, leveraging the team that we had with Jeff Murphy as the executive director during the day-to-day stuff. And I was, at the [00:36:00] time, a board member only, not the co-chairman that I am, and the role that I reside in now.

And so I went out two, three times a week recruiting for memberships who I went to, Dallas Meetup, which I'm now the executive advisor for.

I met people who were curious about angel investing.

We've never done it. I would invite them and I would personally go out to coffee with them and tell 'em about what they can expect, just holding their hand. Almost like as a mentor. 

Hmm. I also mentor a lot as well, and you meet people that way and you know, you meet mentors who also potential angel investors.

I was just all over the place trying to make it a mission to grow this thing. Um, but we, we need help. And so, I tried to, as a leader, try to motivate others to recruit. 

Then working with Jeff, coming up with ideas about building the membership, I ended up coming an idea about building a virtual membership,

'cause we're in COVID and then all of sudden, at one point we had maybe 7 or 10 members that were virtual, including a brother who is in Japan as a member. 

Andrew Kazlow: Wow. 

Ichan Stall: [00:37:00] Right. We had some people from Germany to express interest. I don't think they ever joined, but you know, just, we've got members, we had some members in Washington State, California, and, you know, and other places.

But it needed help. And then now we're up to 70 members. We're the, the institutional investor of the year, as of February. You're talking about explosive growth. We're 70 members. We went from 15 to 70 in about two and a half years. We've done maybe two and a half million dollars in the last 18 months this past year. This 2025, first calendar, six months of 2025, we've done about a million dollars.

We're investing in healthcare, CPG, SaaS. Biopharma, medical devices, healthcare. I mean, now we're expanding that reach. We're growing, you know, and, uh, and we have a much better reputation. 

Andrew Kazlow: It's funny, as you're talking, I mean, the things that you're, you're talking about that you all did, I don't hear any, here's the silver bullet.

Here's the magic sauce. Here's what we did to grow this thing. 

Ichan Stall: Grassroots. 

Andrew Kazlow: Getting out there, hustling, hitting the pavement, talking to people, sitting down over coffee and [00:38:00] just getting after it to build this community, which is now growing and, and making such an impact here. 

Ichan Stall: Yeah. 

Andrew Kazlow: Locally. 

Ichan Stall: And next week, you know, we're getting together with the other local angel networks for the first time, I believe, and having a meeting for all their angel investors and our angel investors all get to know each other.

And also talk about deal flow, talk about trends, talk about the pains and the challenges, and also successes, right? Look, we all know when we have fellow angels and there's a big fear of FOMO here in the angel network world, right? When I hear about CTAN or Houston Angel Network or Alamo Angels, or even our neighboring Cowtown Angels or TiE or SWAN or anyone else here locally, when they're doing a deal, we wanna know what, wanna know about it.

They went through the due diligence process, and we know that's a long, sometimes arduous and tedious process and maybe painful, but in the end, they went forward with an investment. We do the same thing. So, if we can bring on in a syndicated manner, bring on another angel network, it minimizes or mitigates risk, [00:39:00] right?

The founder, now, he or she and the team can leverage all the different other contacts that we all have. 

Right? Think of it like a tree and there's roots of sprouting everywhere or going everywhere. Each of us have their own networks. Right? And so that founding team can leverage that to hopefully, grow their revenues, install base, build loyalty.

And so it is, it's about just kind of bootstrapping a lot of ways, right? We're kind of almost a start up in our own manner and going out in the community, you know, we sponsor CodeLaunch. Uh, we're on podcasts like this and you know, the other one over there with Isaac Carter, and we're doing events.

We're part of the Venture Forum and we're partnered with the DEC Network and, you know, you just gotta get out there and start meeting people. And so we're doing this event next week, on Thursday the 14th, and we're bringing these angel networks together, uh, down at, um, Pegasus Park. For a happy hour just to get to know.

And, and hopefully that is the start of a new beginning where we're really cohesively gelling, you know? And, yeah. So it's, it's, I enjoy it, man. I [00:40:00] love it. 

Andrew Kazlow: Well, certainly grateful for the work you've done and, and the hustle, right? The years of, of hustle seem to be proving some value. I'd love to hear any final thoughts for our listeners,

takeaways, lessons learned. 

Ichan Stall: Yeah. I think as founders, don't be afraid to ask for help. 

Andrew Kazlow: Mm.

Ichan Stall: You know, I really, um, ask for mentorship, ask for advisors, and then you still gotta make your decisions on your own. But having a team, I learned very early on that I just can never do this all by myself.

Certainly there's things you can do, especially if you're a solopreneur, you gotta do a lot of it, but you know, you can come to these events, meet people, network, go out and network. I would also suggest, um, you know, as angel investors, get to know really deep, these founders spend the time, go the extra mile to get to know them because ultimately, if you invest in 'em, you have money in them.

And no one likes just giving away money. 

Andrew Kazlow: Mm. 

Ichan Stall: But go out and network. Go out and meet and um, you know, and go shake hands and say hi, and [00:41:00] be genuine, authentic. I think people really appreciate that. 

Andrew Kazlow: Hmm. 

Ichan Stall: And, uh, and don't be afraid to ask for help. Even an angel. I could use some help. You know, in the, in the due diligence or interviewing this founder or looking at the financials, or whatever it might be.

But also when I ask for help, it encourages collaboration. And now I get to know someone as well a little better. Next thing you know, he or she may have a great opportunity from a deal flow perspective, or he or she may know someone that they might refer me to as well. You just, you never know who you're gonna meet.

And even today, now it's not even who you meet anymore. It's who you know, who knows you, I mean, you go network all day long. You can shake hands with Mark Cuban. But if you had made an impact on Mark Cuban, he may not know you, but if you make an impact, he may say, I'll have my people call your people or, I really liked what you said and this really resonated with me. I'll make sure that we stay in touch. And so it even goes beyond now of just who you know, it's who knows you. 

Andrew Kazlow: Yeah. 

Ichan Stall: And that. That happens because you make an [00:42:00] impact or you are very genuine, authentic, and you're making a meaningful connection.

Andrew Kazlow: Wonderful. 

Ichan Stall: And you know, so anyway. Yeah. 

Andrew Kazlow: Well— 

Ichan Stall: This is awesome. I had a really great time. 

Andrew Kazlow: Hey Ichan, this has been a blast. Thank you for making the time to join us and it's too busy schedule. Uh, I look forward to our next conversation very much. And if you're listening to this and aren't familiar with the DFW ecosystem, check out

Dallas-Fort Worth Startup Week, uh, next year. Not sure exactly where it will be, but it will be big and we look forward to seeing you there. 

Ichan Stall: Yeah, I really appreciate it. We're growing our angel network, so you can look us up on North Texas Angel Network and if you're a credit investor, we'd love to have you.

Andrew Kazlow: Wonderful. Thank you, Ichan. 

Ichan Stall: Thanks, Andrew.

Andrew Kazlow: Thanks for listening to this episode of The Diligent Observer. I'm your host, Andrew, and if you're an angel investor looking for essential angel intel in five minutes every week, I think you'd enjoy my newsletter. I send my best stuff, interesting deals, and more straight to your inbox so you never miss a thing.

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