[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shirt with Literary Agents, Carly Waters, and CC Lyra.

[SPEAKER_01]: Where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you'd ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug and pull up a chair.

[SPEAKER_01]: everybody, we're going to play a fun version of this episode, including where RCC and I in the world right now, where did we just come from?

[SPEAKER_01]: Are we prepared?

[SPEAKER_01]: Are we not prepared for this episode?

[SPEAKER_01]: We will see it's a bit of a wild card today, CC where you right now.

[SPEAKER_02]: Is there even a thing as prepared in the episode called Shoot the Shed?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like I feel like we're always prepared because we're just shooting this shit I'm in New York right now, but I know you just came from Dallas.

[SPEAKER_02]: Is that right?

[SPEAKER_01]: I did?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just got back from DFWCon.

[SPEAKER_01]: I did the keynote on Saturday at lunch I love doing keynote.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think they're fun.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a little bit nerve wracking of course my stomach's like [SPEAKER_01]: Royaling a little bit, but it's totally fine in normal and healthy to, you know, push ourselves into new directions and to ourselves.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I, I love that for myself.

[SPEAKER_01]: Had a lot of fun.

[SPEAKER_01]: Everybody there is so nice.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've been to that conference before.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to figure out, and you guys can obviously like comment on YouTube or GMS, but I'm trying to figure out how to use the keynote that I did.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the keynote that I did was on AI and authors and, you know, just bring you everybody up to date about where everything is with the court cases.

[SPEAKER_01]: just strategy and philosophy about why I think that writer should not be using AI and kind of backing it up with data and information.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that was kind of the framework for the keynote.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I've tried to figure out should I potentially like record it again and give it to our Tuesday subscribers for our newsletter.

[SPEAKER_01]: That was an idea that I had.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I'm deciding.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so that is a comment either in the the YouTube DM or the YouTube comment section.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or DMs.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, but I think I'm going to do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was thinking about doing it on Instagram.

[SPEAKER_01]: How you can do like a carousel.

[SPEAKER_01]: Kind of like essay style.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was thinking about that, but yeah, I might record it for us for our Tuesday subscribers.

[SPEAKER_02]: But anyway, yeah, you can just comment agreeing with me because I'm right.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, yes, it's going to be great.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're going to record it and I'm going to have fun watching it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't get to go, but I saw a bunch of people posting about it posting like really pictures of you speaking and it was fun and [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I saw even quotes that people posted.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, yes, do I was quoteable?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, somebody came up to me after they were like, I was thinking, so what did I know?

[SPEAKER_01]: This one word that you said, so I got up my notes and filled in the gap for them.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they're like, okay, great.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm saving this.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, so it's a quoteable keynote, I think, and very relevant.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I'd love to get that to you guys.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's what I did.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I flew out Friday morning.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was in Dallas for Worth area by, let's say, two 30 PM central time.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I like hung out on the Friday night, the Saturday night I was working, the conference, and then my flight was Sunday at 7 a.m.

[SPEAKER_01]: out of Dallas, for first.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I was like barely on the ground 48 hours.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I checked out the Fort Worth Stockyards with my client in a Mitchell.

[SPEAKER_01]: We had breakfast, so I went around and hung out, which was really great.

[SPEAKER_01]: Did you eat good food?

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I did.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I did.

[SPEAKER_01]: This conference is really good about taking the agents.

[SPEAKER_01]: They call them like the VIPs to offsite locations so that we can get great food and chat.

[SPEAKER_01]: We can also talk a little bit about how it works from the agent side at conferences because basically, usually somebody picks me up at the airport.

[SPEAKER_01]: you know, from the conference as an opportunity for volunteers to get a little bit of extra face time with the agents.

[SPEAKER_01]: John, John was my Wrangler, John thinking it from the airport, he's like, I'm wearing a blue Met's hat, you know, tell me what he's wearing.

[SPEAKER_01]: He grabbed my bag, brought me back.

[SPEAKER_01]: So he brought me to in and out burgers so I could eat some lunch because I had not lunch because my flight was a little delayed and brought me back to the conference.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so a lot of conferences like this do a great job of just giving the agents a Wrangler also to make sure that the agent shows up where they're supposed to show up obviously, but I was appreciate it, [SPEAKER_01]: I'm fed and watered and where I need to be.

[SPEAKER_01]: So CCD, do you have the same when you do conferences?

[SPEAKER_02]: This doesn't apply to you, but for me, the Wrangler is very important because I am very spatially navigationaly challenged as you know.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: Do not know where I'm going, ever.

[SPEAKER_02]: In my own neighborhood I get lost, it doesn't matter.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, Wrangler is we appreciate you.

[SPEAKER_01]: We do, yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: And obviously since it was in Texas, being called the Wrangler was obviously just right on point.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was great.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that was my experience.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, see you in New York.

[SPEAKER_01]: What do you up to this week in New York?

[SPEAKER_02]: So I have a very meeting heavy week.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we're recording this, it's 1pm, it's 1pm.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I had a breakfast meeting and two coffee meetings.

[SPEAKER_02]: I am very caffeinated.

[SPEAKER_02]: No complaints here.

[SPEAKER_02]: Love being caffeinated.

[SPEAKER_02]: I do switch to decaffer as of the second cup, but still has a little bit of caffeine.

[SPEAKER_02]: Also in a lot of cookies.

[SPEAKER_02]: And my film entity meeting was so much fun.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we're not going to use names, because you know who it was with, because it's the same person we open.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and she's great and she's great and it was so much fun.

[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, we talked about the industry and we talked about how, you know, in publishing and in film and TV adaptations of books, you have this idea that, you know, this doesn't sell.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'll just give you an example.

[SPEAKER_02]: Historical fiction doesn't sell.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's really hard to adapt.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's really tough.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's expensive.

[SPEAKER_02]: You have the settings, the costumes, the cars, you know, all these things to change and that's cost a lot of money.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then, of course, you know, she just had a huge auction for her historical collection project.

[SPEAKER_02]: Of course.

[SPEAKER_02]: So there's this idea where it's like, oh, this doesn't sell and then it does.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to accept one of those.

[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like this whole huge industry of, what did she say?

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm actually going to look at my little notebook.

[SPEAKER_02]: She said, this is so funny.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's like, it's always the unsellable, I'm not saying that I don't want, and then all of a sudden someone wants that, and they were like, well, that's because nobody else wanted it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So now I can And then also like, we might say what we want and don't want, but at the end of the day, a talented author will service what we did not know we wanted, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: We had no idea.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was actually thinking about this as I was like thinking back of like coming back, recording this, and bringing my notebook, [SPEAKER_02]: I think that if I were to lose this notebook, and Carly, your notebook is the same because I've seen it.

[SPEAKER_02]: People would think that we're like psychopaths.

[SPEAKER_02]: Or is there things here like, love's murder?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because we're running about fiction, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Love's murder really into psychotic voices.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to see even being really into psychotic voices.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know what it means.

[SPEAKER_02]: But imagine someone picking up this notebook.

[SPEAKER_02]: Any literary agents notebook?

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh gosh, they would be really fun.

[SPEAKER_02]: They would be really, really hilarious.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because so my notebook is like broken up by the days of the week, but I never write in the right day.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just like it's it's completely day.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what's wrong with me.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, it's not wrong with you.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're a free thinker.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're a free thinker.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's wonderful.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I have a bunch of meetings.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to celebrate as an agency everyone at Wendy Sherman.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to celebrate 25 years on Thursday.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm excited for that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, just just very meeting heavy week.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's a very sunny week today.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like the sun is out at least now.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm pretty sure it's going to rain on Wednesday.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I have my hats, my big hats, and I'm walking around the city with my big hats.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, when it's sunny, you're wearing a hat, when it's raining, you're wearing a hat, you're just, oh yes, but I got to look a less weird, I think, when it's sunny, and where I had to look a little bit less weird.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you're, you should bring back hats, hats are fun, hats are fun, hats are fun.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I have a hat person.

[SPEAKER_01]: We can't wear them on the show, obviously, because of these headphones, but if you see us in the wild, let's know how you feel about hats.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we got some really interesting DM.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the one of the reasons we didn't overly prepare for today's episode is because we had some juicy DMs and the vaults, let's just say, and that we kind of been holding back to chat about.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm excited about these juicy ones and that we can kind of go a little [SPEAKER_01]: Go a little deeper on them, go in some different directions, and we'd love hearing juicy details.

[SPEAKER_01]: We were like, is this right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Is this in the gray zone?

[SPEAKER_01]: Is this ethical?

[SPEAKER_01]: Or, you know, how do you feel about this very, very complicated subject?

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, one of those things that we can't always tackle in a very specific Q&A type of episode, but we can kind of free free wheel a little bit.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: Which one do you want to do first?

[SPEAKER_01]: Ooh, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: Why don't we start with the first one?

[SPEAKER_02]: Alrighty, so I'm going to read this and I will make sure to anonymize anything in case there is anything to anonymized.

[SPEAKER_02]: This person says hi and says that we're really great and compliments us, which thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like it goes very happy and she's just saying she likes the new segment, a question.

[SPEAKER_02]: Looking at the newsletter, great article, read digital first publication.

[SPEAKER_02]: location, which to me sounds very appealing, actually.

[SPEAKER_02]: Mago direct to digital first, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Mago to digital first.

[SPEAKER_02]: If I'm even lucky to get a deal that is, I was hoping to debut with a traditional deal.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'd love to know your thoughts on digital first, and this person says we've met at a conference.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yay.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I didn't remember them when I saw their profile, but after clicking on their profile and going through their pictures, not in a weirdo way, this person hasn't opened account.

[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't remember them from the conference.

[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is a really interesting question.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think my answer to this is changed as things like this do over the years.

[SPEAKER_01]: It also depends on like who the digital first publisher is right.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a lot of like Ifs and buts to kind of link all of the different variables of this conversation together.

[SPEAKER_01]: So [SPEAKER_01]: digital first just so we can maybe start with some definitions so just everybody's on the same page right so digital first means that you do a book deal with a publisher knowing that they are a digital first publisher meaning they're going to do ebook or digital audio and not necessarily print so this is digital first but kind of means like essentially digitally exclusively [SPEAKER_01]: Unless there might be a huge demand for the book to be done in a traditional print run or there's a POD print on demand component to it where people can still order a physical copy, but it is POD is print on demand.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not actually like a print run that was done.

[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, this is a cost saving measure.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure you guys can imagine some categories do a bit better in digital anyway.

[SPEAKER_01]: Some of the things to run through about digital first are the royalties are usually higher.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because they know that this is potentially a bit more risky for the author.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, they're foregoing a traditional book deal.

[SPEAKER_01]: Therefore, they're trying to incentivize authors a bit more.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the royalties can be anywhere, again, depending on the publisher.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to name names because this person isn't either.

[SPEAKER_01]: really could be anywhere from, you know, 35 to 60 percent, you know, kind of in that frame.

[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, see if you've seen her hurt otherwise let me know, but it depends on [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, depends on a few things.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't actually think I've seen higher than 50.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's great to know that sometimes 60 happens.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, obviously there's, you know, escalators and other things that can come into play.

[SPEAKER_01]: So again, really depends on the publisher.

[SPEAKER_01]: So just so you guys know, this is dramatically higher than traditional publishing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because traditional publishing does ebook royalties at 25% net.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is also net, but you know, potentially up to 50 to 60%.

[SPEAKER_01]: net, which is obviously double potentially of what traditional publishers are giving you.

[SPEAKER_01]: So as riskier for you, obviously you're starting your career in a digital first space.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, there's a lot of different angles we can take with this conversation.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, is this the right choice for you?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: When it comes to the royalties, it's also important to know that some digital first publishers, maybe even many.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've never counted.

[SPEAKER_02]: They sell their e-books at a lower rate, like a lower price point.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like a 499.

[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you're getting 50% royalties, you're getting 50% and you have to take into consideration what the book is sold for, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because it's 50% of something and then it can be not.

[SPEAKER_02]: It could be, like, etc.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, [SPEAKER_02]: that matters too.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like the price points different.

[SPEAKER_02]: When ebooks became a thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there was a scare.

[SPEAKER_02]: ebooks are going to replace print books on that.

[SPEAKER_02]: That didn't happen.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I remember reading an article way, way back before I was a literary agent.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was just always interested in reading.

[SPEAKER_02]: I remember reading an article about how, you know, if a book was sold for at the time, it was $1.99.

[SPEAKER_02]: Certain categories could have great sales because people were willing to take a chance on a $1.99 ebook.

[SPEAKER_02]: books are expensive not everyone wants to spend $30 on book and so that's another thing to consider when you think about the royalties but again I don't want us to get like too lost in the economics of it because the question is I mean this person who reached up to us thank you for reaching out to us by the way thank you for for sharing and for asking that question you're saying hey I want a traditional deal right because that's where your hearts at and if I were speaking with you which I guess I am in a sense my first question to you would be like [SPEAKER_02]: I am not pro digital first, but I'm also not anti digital first because I think that it's as agents, it's our job to learn what the market is doing to always be aware of new forms of publishing and of getting the word out there on a book and not being.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, a blanket statement like pro or anti doesn't really work.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think what works is it depends on the case It depends on their author depends on the book.

[SPEAKER_02]: It depends on the moment.

[SPEAKER_02]: It depends on so many things and you're saying I really want trad and like that's really cool if you've examined this my first question is have you examined this or is it just like a knee jerk reaction?

[SPEAKER_02]: knee-jerk reactions are often unconscious reactions.

[SPEAKER_02]: Shout out to my fabulous client, Dr.

Courtney Traci, the truth doctor online, for teaching me all about the unconscious, but no seriously.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like we, our first like, no, I don't want this.

[SPEAKER_02]: It often comes from a place that we haven't examined.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I would examine that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe you do want it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe you don't want it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And to know, you should research digital first.

[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, we're going to talk about it here, too.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like a number of things we can do, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: You can talk to other authors on that imprints list, either through your agent or through the publisher or in DM, ask for the people's experiences because every publisher is different in terms of these experiences.

[SPEAKER_01]: So just make sure you go in super-ise-wide open.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's very important.

[SPEAKER_01]: The other thing is you said that you're hoping to debut with a traditional deal.

[SPEAKER_01]: You still can.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like this book can sit in the desk for a little while.

[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to publish that file.

[SPEAKER_01]: You could go work on something else and debut traditionally.

[SPEAKER_01]: and then make another decision about this.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you feel like it's just so timely, then I think you need to ask yourself, what is that urgency telling you?

[SPEAKER_01]: Where is that urgency coming from?

[SPEAKER_01]: Is there a urgency just you wanting to be published?

[SPEAKER_01]: And therefore, this is the book that's available and the deal could potentially be digital first.

[SPEAKER_01]: And therefore, that feels like the right choice when it's actually not the right choice.

[SPEAKER_01]: The right choice could be, let's put the breaks on it, let's work on another book, traditionally debut with that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then decide if potentially it's someday down the line that you might want to do that when digital first.

[SPEAKER_01]: I would say also examine the urgency and where that urgency is coming from and what actually would be the right choice.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that is so wise.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for saying that.

[SPEAKER_02]: I also encourage listeners to check out my interview with Marjan.

[SPEAKER_02]: author of the Lion Woman of Tehran.

[SPEAKER_02]: It hasn't come out yet, so by the time this episode comes out, it will not have come out yet.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm pretty sure, but it will be coming out soon.

[SPEAKER_02]: She talks about how, you know, people say life is short.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's like, no, life is long.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's the mentality you have to have for publishing, because life is short makes you anxious, and it makes you need to.

[SPEAKER_02]: I must be published by 30, by 40, whatever, and like no, you must be published when your story is ready to be published.

[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, I love that you said that.

[SPEAKER_02]: I also think it's important to remember that this person had to not have a digital first deal or offer in front of her.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to say a few things.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have seen clients, currently I know you've seen this too, be like, I don't want a digital first, and then after their book doesn't sell traditional publishing and yes, they go, okay, digital first, fine.

[SPEAKER_02]: and then they still don't get it on for.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to be really honest about this.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's still really hard to get a digital first off.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not a situation where it's like, oh, it's the easy route.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, publishers are discerning publishers.

[SPEAKER_02]: They want great stories.

[SPEAKER_02]: They still reject most of the things they get because they get way too many things.

[SPEAKER_02]: They can't publish all these books.

[SPEAKER_02]: The fact that it is digital first is not mean that it's easy to get.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I really want people to know this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just want to add onto that, because I'm just nodding along.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you're not watching on YouTube, I'm like, frankly nodding because a lot of people think like it is a, you know, second to your third tier in their mind, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: But these digital first publishers do want to be chosen by you for a reason.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if you have a track record, they also want to know about that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I know this person's day view, and I'm just talking in general.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the other thing is a lot of imprints and publishers that are very digitally focused, actually don't want a debut author because they don't have a track.

[SPEAKER_01]: to then like support into the metadata and into the ecosystem to justify because we know how hard launching a day view is.

[SPEAKER_01]: And launching a day view in digital first doesn't really actually make it any easier.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's another point I want to make really clear.

[SPEAKER_01]: So like day view is hard no matter what, there's obviously tons of upside.

[SPEAKER_01]: But in digital first they sometimes can see that as a bit of a challenge because there's no kind of like I think sticky online to like gravitate to pick up on if that [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and another thing I wanted to talk about, I think this question gives us this opportunity.

[SPEAKER_02]: This has always been on my mind.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this person says, my agent told me that my story may go to digital first if I'm even lucky to get a deal.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think this is a really great opportunity to talk about how agents set expectations with their clients.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this reminds me of a, it was a tweet.

[SPEAKER_02]: This was back when Twitter was still Twitter.

[SPEAKER_02]: I generally think this was like four years ago, maybe five.

[SPEAKER_02]: There was a tweet by a person who said, and again, their tone was ambitious, frustrated.

[SPEAKER_02]: Their tone was very much like, I'm a go-getter.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna make things happen.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm paraphrasing, but the tweet said something like, I just signed a contract that, my former literary agent told me I would never sign.

[SPEAKER_02]: I would probably never sign.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know why agents do this.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know why you keep telling authors that, you know, it's hard.

[SPEAKER_02]: Stop saying that get out of the way and let success happen again.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm paraphrasing.

[SPEAKER_02]: I do remember some parts of it very vividly, but the idea behind this person who was being vulnerable, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like she was being vulnerable.

[SPEAKER_02]: She wasn't naming names or anything, but she was saying, look, booktiles happened.

[SPEAKER_02]: She didn't say what the deal was she had signed, like my mind went to film in TV, but whatever it was, [SPEAKER_02]: grid things happen in a publishing industry.

[SPEAKER_02]: But as agents, a huge part of our job is to manage our clients' expectations.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's to tell our clients, look, the stats are really hard.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's really hard.

[SPEAKER_02]: We just did it.

[SPEAKER_02]: We just said, just so you know, the digital first is not easy.

[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't mean you will for sure get an offer.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that it's really interesting how each agent approaches managing expectations.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because the truth is, and I feel very strongly about this, Carly, and I'm so curious about your thoughts.

[SPEAKER_02]: so much of it depends on the person you're talking to.

[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, the moment, too.

[SPEAKER_02]: But like, there are people who, if you tell them it's hard, these are the stats, this is how often things get rejected, this is how often R&R turns into an offer versus doesn't.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you give them information on how competitive and hard it is, they take that as, okay, gotcha, I'm re-adjusting and recalibrating, I'm still gonna go like, their drive will not change at all.

[SPEAKER_02]: It might even [SPEAKER_02]: somehow increase, you know, there's strategy changes, but their passion doesn't necessarily.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, if it does it increases, and there are people who hear that and it almost feels like throwing a bucket of cold water on them, you know, they go, oh, that's really discouraging and they become sometimes paralyzed, sometimes irritated and frustrated and also caveat that you could have more than when reaction you can feel frustrated and then pivot to the super ambitious growth, [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that it really depends on the person, and depends on how you frame things, of course.

[SPEAKER_02]: But when your agent says to you, hey, it might be digital first.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, one thing they might be doing too is having a conversation with you, you know, Carly and I are the same in this, because we've shared works together, you know, before submitting to publishers, we talked to our authors about what are your expectations, what are your goals.

[SPEAKER_02]: We will not submit to jail for as publishers if plans aren't interested in that.

[SPEAKER_02]: They are, but sometimes when we manage expectations, [SPEAKER_02]: What we're trying to do is protect you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, but honestly, 90% of it is empower you.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's empower you with the knowledge that you need to succeed in this market because to often people approach publishing kind of like they do at school.

[SPEAKER_02]: They think if they work really hard, they'll get an A and then they'll follow the assignment, they'll get an A and publishing is not school.

[SPEAKER_02]: Publishing is, and I'm not saying school is also always easy, but publishing is a competitive industry.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like more people get rejected than not.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that's one of the hardest parts of our job is kind of what I call the code switching.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's like we're constantly switching between all of these situations.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a lot of responsibility and pressure on an agent to like this client needs to be talked to this way and this client needs this and this up also for time with the amount of education and information that they get about the business.

[SPEAKER_01]: Then I can start to talk to them in a different way, the more information that they have.

[SPEAKER_01]: So all of this also changes over time and this is also part of the trust building.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because I also I can give them all this information and then I need them to trust me that we are making the collective decision together and it's just yeah it's something that you learn as an agent because.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think one of the hard things is when it client really, really, really, really want something in the agents.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I actually don't think that's the best move for you as an agent do I do with the client wants to happen?

[SPEAKER_01]: Or do I say, okay, maybe it's time for you to have another agent because just because you want that, it does that align with what my core values are as an agent.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so those are some really complicated conversations have to.

[SPEAKER_02]: For sure, it's why it's so important to have like open communication.

[SPEAKER_02]: But like I guess our takeaways are examined, [SPEAKER_02]: make sure your goals are conscious and mindful, talk to your agent, you know, and remember all of publishing is competitive, all of publishing is competitive.

[SPEAKER_02]: We work really hard to manage clients' expectations, and also like the writing community's expectations too.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think about that a lot when we record our other segment, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like books with Hux, it's...

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to be honest and I want to say what works and doesn't and how hard things are, but I don't want to press it.

[SPEAKER_02]: You won.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's so hard.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's so hard.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a fine line.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it's one of those things.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like both.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's one of those both can be true things, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: It can be really hard and also be great.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is this is really hard and great.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know I was speaking earlier about the news letter and how much great stuff is going in there in terms of things we have planned a CC do have the list in front of you because we have some awesome stuff coming up.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is really exciting actually because there's a book called The Gallery Assistant by Kate Valley.

[SPEAKER_02]: So Kate is sharing how she got her yes after like a two year submission process filled with rejection and she flipped genres to get to where she is now I'm really excited to read this book So thank you Kate for contributing to our newsletter and I really am looking forward to reading your work And I think you guys will like it too.

[SPEAKER_02]: Crystal Skyler author of a most peculiar poisoning is sharing an author video.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love author videos.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're so fun.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's filled with advice about creating the kind of atmosphere that does more than just bring setting to life.

[SPEAKER_02]: Setting to life is really important and so is apparently persistence because that's her angle in this author video.

[SPEAKER_02]: Also USA Today and number one Amazon bestselling author Trulina Pucci.

[SPEAKER_02]: author of One Killer Night is sharing a ton of excellent advice in the author Q&A, including how literary foreplay can get the reader in the mood for the good stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: I like this.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm always saying storytelling is seduction, so I am very proud of this.

[SPEAKER_02]: And finally, Mark Waterle, author of Colin gets promoted and dooms the world, expands on Fridays essay with a bonus tip about how to write morally great characters that readers will root for.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know our newsletter is good because as I am reading promos for it, I'm excited to read it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm impatient because I have to wait.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is how I know stuff is good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Alright, and with that we're going to throw to our sponsors and we'd write back to talk about another great DM.

[SPEAKER_01]: All right, I'm gonna read the next one.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is a lengthy one.

[SPEAKER_01]: So again, gonna have to paraphrase a little bit here.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this is kind of a larger topic around when somebody wins a package.

[SPEAKER_01]: You guys know what I'm talking about when it's like, okay, a manuscript critique or an editorial letter or an A&A Zoom or a brainstorming session.

[SPEAKER_01]: When there's a fundraising thing going on, I usually offer like a 30 minute A&A Zoom's that type of thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's usually to raise money for something, or it could just be to pay, you know, or bid for this opportunity.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this person says they had an opportunity where they won a signet they're calling it a signet to get package.

[SPEAKER_01]: So when I'm looking at it here, it's like multiple of the things that I just mentioned.

[SPEAKER_01]: Since signing the contract, there's a contract, the start date had come and gone, and this person hasn't heard back.

[SPEAKER_01]: regarding this package.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I guess they won the package, a contract was signed, and they haven't heard back from this person.

[SPEAKER_01]: They are worried that something happened to this editor.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're concerned about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: They've reached out to the organization that put the pitch package together, asked if they were still working.

[SPEAKER_01]: The response from the organization was [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for reaching out.

[SPEAKER_01]: The organization hadn't heard from so-and-so in a few weeks, but also they aren't involved in the kind of professional business contractual element of this once it leaves the contest's hands.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they are kind of saying, like, that's where the line is.

[SPEAKER_01]: Once they moved out of their hands, it's not in their hands anymore, and they hope that it gets resolved, even though it was organized through this contest.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this person obviously has some questions for us.

[SPEAKER_01]: Basically, they want to know from us, they understand ghosting on querying.

[SPEAKER_01]: But for a competition is this normal, what do you think about the organizers of this?

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that answer was okay?

[SPEAKER_01]: Do they have a responsibility to uphold the contracts and kind of quote unquote prizes?

[SPEAKER_01]: that are paid for or won obviously through these organizations.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this is a kind of juicy one.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts with CC.

[SPEAKER_01]: Why don't you kick us off here?

[SPEAKER_02]: I will kick us off to in the CC thing where I zero in on one word and I would like to challenge this lovely word to this lovely person.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know you didn't mean it in this way, but like you're calling it ghosting on cold querying.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not ghosting.

[SPEAKER_02]: it's not ghosting, okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: If I send out my resume to a company and the company does it invite me for an interview and just has a very clear line that says we thank all applicants for your applications but only those who make it to the interview will be contacted that is not ghosting.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not ghosting.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, no but seriously, I feel very strongly that the competition should make it right for you.

[SPEAKER_02]: I do and they can't force this [SPEAKER_02]: be a responsible human and get back to you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Also something genuinely serious might have happened to this person.

[SPEAKER_02]: So they might not be able to literally substitute the prize, but they should give you a prize.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like they should find a way to make it right.

[SPEAKER_02]: This actually has happened quite similarly with our business.

[SPEAKER_02]: We've had situations where a prize was offered through our, I don't remember whether it was podcast or media or deep dive, like I don't remember, but like [SPEAKER_02]: And the person couldn't honor the prize and we gave them a different prize.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know it's not the same.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like in this case, the person very in a very lovely way said the second prize was even better, so she was really happy.

[SPEAKER_01]: But, well, that's up to the business to go above and be on to make it right for your quote unquote customer.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: But what if this is like their dream editor?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like whatever, right there.

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it won't be just as good, but there should be similar, you know, it should be similar.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like I think that if they offered this as part of a prize, I feel very strongly that they have to make it right.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's not okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: you know, them saying like we hope this gets resolved.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like turn that hope around and resolve it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is that hope as fueled so you can resolve it.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, I feel very strongly they have to make it right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I totally agree.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think this contest made them.

[SPEAKER_01]: poor decision and how they responded and hopefully maybe somebody's hearing this and maybe knowing that they are part of this organization because yeah to me this is a customer service in a brand issue and it's so much larger than this right because now you have this person who has a negative experience with your contest [SPEAKER_01]: And all of a sudden, you know, we're going to get around, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Somebody has a bad experience with your brand or your product, we're going to get around.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just want to rewind a little bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: So when I do these types of things, I kind of explained before.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, so people reach out to me all the time, but WFWA, women's fiction registry association, I'll often give something for that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll often give something for...

[SPEAKER_01]: like BIPOC, people in publishing in Canada, they do a giveaway.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll often do the ALA.

[SPEAKER_01]: It will also do one as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's like a few organizations that I really make sure that I get my time to them.

[SPEAKER_01]: What I always offer, because it's kind of just easiest in a number of capacities, is I offer a 30 minute AMA Zoom.

[SPEAKER_01]: And why this is easy for me is because I have a link that I can send to the organization that says, when this contest closes, you send this link to them, this person fills in all this information.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because sometimes, honestly, we are so busy, you know, if somebody reached me being like, I won this, you know, I just need a proper channel, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So there could be, I'm not making excuses for this person that's been ignored.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the reason I choose things that are really straightforward is I never want anybody to get lost in this process.

[SPEAKER_01]: because I know as an agent, the authors have this, you know, when they have an experience with me, whether it is querying me or whether it is winning a contest with me, that it's always going to stick in their mind about how they felt and how that agent made them feel.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I take that responsibility really seriously.

[SPEAKER_01]: So worries me a little bit that this organization isn't taking this really seriously because it's reputationally for this company, for the industry.

[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, [SPEAKER_01]: but I definitely think there's a responsibility if an organization offers something and it can't go through for whatever reason that they do offers at the else.

[SPEAKER_02]: For sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, for sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: And there are many things that they could offer that would, again, make the author feel like they were properly taken care of.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, thank you for reaching out with that question.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's, this is a no-brainer.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is no brainer.

[SPEAKER_01]: One thing I didn't get in that I wanted to was this word contract, this actually worries me a little bit, because it says, since signing the contract, our start date has coming gone and I haven't heard from them.

[SPEAKER_01]: That part worries me a little bit as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because I actually think that makes this organization even more vulnerable, that they put this person in a situation where they then went and had to sign a contract for winning something.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know, again, I'm not the legal person, but I think there is a liability here [SPEAKER_01]: Again, you put this person into a common situation where they decide to contract and we don't know what it is in the contract.

[SPEAKER_01]: But usually there's a, like, if somebody can't complete the thing, there's like an out-to-some kind, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Or, anyway, I think this is our fair contract probably would have thought, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like one, one feels that way.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's just, I mean, also contracts aren't, like, I've never, I've never [SPEAKER_02]: you know, entered into a contract for a prize that I've won.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I've never paid that for your team.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but you know, maybe this maybe it's a situation where a contract does make sense.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I could definitely see that there could be that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And fine, but we don't know any of the specifics, but we do know that one organization offers a prize like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the prize isn't honored.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's up to the organization to make it okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we are going to agreement on that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so I think those were most of our juicy DMs.

[SPEAKER_01]: See, was there anything else that we hadn't chat about?

[SPEAKER_02]: No, we got through it today pretty quickly.

[SPEAKER_02]: Today's going to be a short shoot this should episode.

[SPEAKER_02]: Just a reminder, you guys can DM us.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think I scared everybody from DMing me, so everybody's DMing me.

[SPEAKER_01]: See you soon.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't necessarily respond to everyone, but I see every single one of them, I take a screenshot, I keep it in a little folder.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when it's time for us to discuss the content, we do.

[SPEAKER_02]: And as you can see, we keep it anonymous.

[SPEAKER_02]: If anyone does want me to read out their names, you should explicitly say that, and we will.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's totally fine.

[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, there's just a lot that we could talk about publishing is a very juicy industry.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that should be fine.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, well, I hope everybody's having a great busy busy fall.

[SPEAKER_01]: Some publishing are super busy.

[SPEAKER_01]: I tried this new thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know I'm not going to show you guys because it has information on it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I got these like mirror markers.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I've been using these mirror markers to write down like all the reading I have to do, the contracts I have, the pitches I'm working on, who's under option, who's in acquisition meetings.

[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, so I have this like, you know, there's like crazy boards with all the arrows.

[SPEAKER_01]: My reading list is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 clients and referrals, and so I've been working through them throughout the fall, so I've stricken out 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.

[SPEAKER_01]: My boards are just like, ah, so I've tons of clients and referrals waiting for me to read their stuff, trying to finish closing a deal today, trying to work on a contract tomorrow, so yeah, publishing is just bonkers, and next week is Frank for both fair.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's another isn't next week.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because it's after Thanksgiving, Canadian Thanksgiving.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it is, it's freeing for book for our next week.

[SPEAKER_01]: So tons of busy stuff going on around here, and CC enjoy your week in New York.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you and enjoy your week.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, books are fun.

[SPEAKER_02]: That is the biggest takeaway.

[SPEAKER_02]: I will now head into my endless, endless string of meetings, which I love, and I'll keep you guys posted on how many books I come back with, because that's the best part.

[SPEAKER_01]: Make some bets guys.

[SPEAKER_01]: Make some bets.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen her pile.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we've recorded in New York last time.

[SPEAKER_01]: We actually use her book stack as a pile to record put the mic on to record.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's how big the stack was.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's some bets.

[SPEAKER_01]: How many books does CCC come back with every new hard trip?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, have a great week, everybody.

[SPEAKER_01]: See you next time.

[SPEAKER_00]: CC-Lera is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission guidelines at www.wshomen.com.

[SPEAKER_00]: Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency.

[SPEAKER_00]: But a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Kali on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co-host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS literary agency.