You're listening to a mother Mia podcast.

You blame yourself, you do because you're like, I've been born into this world, I've been given this body.

Why aren't you doing what I need you to do?

It should be so natural.

There's a certain image many of us have of what life is supposed to look like when we fall in love, marriage, travel, a home, maybe children when the time feels right.

Well, for Chloe Fisher, most of that dream came true.

She met and married the love of her life, Paul Fisher, better known to the world as the DJ Fisher, and together they built this extraordinary, glamorous, joy filled life that most people only ever see on social media.

The parties, the tours, the beaches, the big laughs.

But behind the posts and the public love story was another story Entirely four years, Chloe and Paul tried desperately to have a baby.

Their journey was marked by IVF, miscarriage, and loss after loss, until their hearts were so broken they weren't sure how to keep going.

In this conversation, we talk about how Chloe held on too love through grief, and what it's like to keep showing up for each other when your dreams keep falling.

Apart.

We talk about her deep and lovely friendship with Elid Pullen, whose own story of loss and motherhood forged a bond that helped them both survive, and what it means to find light again after years of darkness.

And we talk about joy because today Chloe is the mum of her daughter Bobby, and she's pregnant again.

She's living proof that love and hope can return even after everything you thought was lost.

Here is Chloe Fisher your book, which is such a beautiful book, by the way, always you, Thank you, and a lot of it's unexpected because it's also a great resource for women who are having fertility issues or have But also you are very philosophical in it about things that are meant to be and things that are not meant to be.

And I often think it's easy for people to talk about painful things when they've had a happy outcome.

But you were talking about great, deep soul life pain when you were not assured of a happy outcome.

I find that interesting And what drove you to do that?

Oh, that's a crazy question.

I just got four boody goose bumps.

I'm going to probably cry this podcast, by the way, I'm so emotional in this pregnancy, but.

I'm very pregnant.

Yeah, it's that's that question is actually a heavy hitter because there were for sure times where I thought it's not going to happen, Like it's not going to happen.

And it went on for four years, and I definitely I always had this belief and I always had this deep down gut feeling that it would happen.

But never in a million years would I expect the road that I traveled.

And you know, I feel like when I got on the podcast, it was almost it was never going to be an easy fix because Elerdie, my podcast partner, sadly lost her partner, and you know, we kind of started around that and I was just studying my fertility journey really around that point.

And was that around the time lad was also having Chumpy's baby.

Yeah, So we lost Chumpy and then about six or twelve months later we started the podcast because we were like, we need to talk about this, and we need to talk about these really heavy topics.

And then she did retrieved his sperm through post mortem sperm retrieval, and then she started IVF and it was around the same time that we did start IVF together.

But yeah, look, it's a funny one because thinking about that question in hindsight, if I would have known that my journey was going to be the way that it was, I don't know if I would have talked about it, because I really did think.

I didn't think that it was going to pan out the way that it did.

It's a funny one because as it evolved, I just I became more and more invested in the more I spoke about it in real time.

And it's crazy because you know, we don't I'm not on the podcast every single week at the moment, just because I just needed a break.

But you know, I would never speak the way that I speak now back then, Like back then we were so not that we're not raw.

Now, I think I'm just like more ahead when I'm thinking, rather than just getting on there and just spilling.

Because we were recording everything in real time as it was happening, Like I had a miscarriage, We'd get on and record an episode the next day and record that heaviness, and you know it was Eli is trying to support me.

I'm trying to support her through grief, and it just became this we just it became us and it kind of has become my purpose over time.

Well.

It's also I find it unusual in like a modern woman, and you're very modern woman, that you always had this calling to be a mom.

It's very unusual.

I think I certainly didn't have it.

My daughter doesn't have it.

But from a very young age, you were always like, I want to be a mom.

You wrote in your book about doing the time capsule with your girlfriends, the six of you who are still really close, yes, and where you would see yourself five years from then, and what had you written?

Oh, I'll be the first one to haven't had a family.

It was a no brainer.

It was something that every single one of my friends they were like, yeah, Chloe, Like not that I'm not career driven, but I always knew I just wanted to be a mother.

And my mom has I'm one of four, so she's been a mom, you know since I can remember, obviously, but she hasn't had like a full on job.

Yeah, she hasn't had a full on job.

And I always just saw myself as that, Like I really did see myself as being a mum.

And I we were never taught in school that it might be, it might be hard, or it might be difficult for some people.

We just we weren't taught about that, and we weren't taught about how things work.

It worked, and I was pretty young, you know, like Paul and I met when I was twenty and he was twenty seven, and you know, we spoke of kids all the time.

I think that I was obviously much more keen on kids than he was.

But eventually, over time, you know, he was like, no, this is what I want.

And then you know, one friend would fall pregnant, and another friend would fall pregnant, and then we fell pregnant actually for the very first time on our wedding, at our wedding, not at the wedding, after the wedding.

Well, very close to the wedding, because it was it was a honeymoon pregnancy.

Yeah, it was literally on that trip and well.

I was going to say that was also marred by you know, I was saying earlier that so much of your life is marked by beautiful winds and really painful losses, and that happened with your grandmother on that trip as well, on your wedding trip.

Yeah, that was a really tough part of the story for me to write with Ali, and it was even harder to actually read.

I think that that that part got me and I still think every time I read that part, I will become quite upset.

You know, it brings up so much guilt.

I always think about, you know, if I didn't get married, or if my wedding wasn't in Bali, maybe she'd still be alive.

You know, So your.

Grandma had a heart episode.

Yeah, so it wasn't at my wedding.

It was like a day or two after.

And she'd always had respiratory issues, but she was like, I'm not missing my first grandchild's wedding, Like I'm going.

My pop stayed home in Australia because he wasn't well enough to travel.

But I really I think that she must have been one of the first people in Bali to get COVID before anyone knew about it, because this was on the twentieth of February twenty twenty, and then the borders shut down on the seventh of March and we were still kind of like all there at that point, and I just don't think, you know, she had these respiratory issues.

We called the ambulance the hotel oxygen system was faulty, so she wasn't able to get oxygen, and the traffic, if you know Bali, is horrific.

So the ambulance took quite a long time to arrive, and then sadly, she passed away in the ambulance to the hospital because she wasn't she just didn't have oxygen, and they put it down to a heart attack in the end.

But yeah, I was at the other end when the ambulance pulled up to the hospital and I remember them opening the doors and I just looked at her and I'm like, oh my god, Oh my god, I actually cannot believe that this is Like Paul didn't even pause him with me because I'm like, don't worry, she's probably a little unwell, but like I'll go with my sisters and we'll just make sure she's okay.

And I called him straight away.

I'm like, this is not good.

This is really bad.

And so she was told my pop that morning and he booked her on the first flight home to Australia, so she was meant to leave that night and then the next phone call that he got from us was that she'd passed away.

And you can only imagine that.

Yeah, and then I found out I was pregnant.

Yes, okay, so then of course there's a silver lining on what has been a very dark cloud.

And yet again that was not to be.

That was my first miscarriage.

Can't remember exactly how old I was, but at the time, I was like, that's so weird.

I'm so young.

Why am I having a miscarriage?

You know, well, that is and because of course it's become a very common experience for women now to have fertility issues.

And yet the prevailing wisdom in the world is that you've spend so long trying not to get pregnant exactly, that the world hasn't really caught up yet, aside from IVF clinics who were cleaning up, but hasn't caught up with the fact that now there are all these attendant issues with fertility and women.

Yeah.

I find myself scratching my head a lot about that because always seems to remind me like, he wasn't like this back in my day.

But it's weird, it really is, like, and I find, you know, the IVF clinics like can't even keep up that many people need fertility assistance and it's sad, and it's expensive, and it seems, you know, something that should be so natural.

And there are so many beautiful families in the world that would do anything, anything to have a baby, and you know they might not be in a position that they can do it, and that you know, then there's people that fell pregnant that are not so much wanting a kid, and it seriously breaks my heart.

And you know, at some point in my life, I would like to start some sort of a charity for families who.

Need to go through that process.

Yeah, when I find time with your speech time, because there's already swim where there's your building company, there's your your husband's career and dejaying, there's your baby Bobby, and there's another baby Moni's way as we speak.

Yes, I know I've got a problem.

There's a lot going on in my life.

Well, sooner or later, I think, Yeah, it'll sort itself out at some way.

At some point, I think when you embark on a big life, there are points at which you go, oh, there's a wrong way, turn back sign.

But you're not one to see a wrong way turn back sign and turn back.

I know I'm working on that.

I am pretty good at saying no.

That's what I've been working on over the years.

You know, I have to say no.

I can't say yes to everything.

But yeah, I think once the next baby comes along, I will for sure be able to, you know, pull up the handbrake a little bit.

I'm excited to you know, it's going to be an interesting family dynamic with the two under two and living on the road.

So interesting.

But you know, how does your husband feel about it?

Because he's also had a huge trajectory from when you first met as as sort of carefree.

He was a surfer boy, you were a cheeky winker.

In a bar.

Yeah.

He when I found out that I was pregnant with the second one, he was like, that's amazing.

And then just recently he's like, I want eight kids.

I'm like, we won't be having eight.

I'm really sorry.

You know, we are so obsessed with Bobby.

You know, we work so hard to get her and it was a really long time and she's the joy in our life.

Like she is hands down the best thing that's ever happened to us.

And you know, we're adaptable and we're just and you know, we've just we do spend half our time in Obeza, usually from June through October.

So I have never really done you know, I've had babysitting help here and there, and I've never really done the nanny full time thing because I've always just thought, you know, I've wanted this for so long, like this is my job, this is my calling, this is what I meant to be doing.

But we have had to get help next year because I was just thinking, He's like, you're going to be breastfeeding.

How are you going to have a crazy one and a half year old two year old running around while you're trying to breastfeed?

And I you know, Paul does still go on the road.

I don't go.

I haven't really gone on the road as much consistently.

I'll pick a base, stay there.

He would travel in and out between, yeah, Australia, La and Ibiza.

But yeah, I'm for sure going to need some help.

And learning to get help is also another thing because I'm very organized and I'm very not controlling, but I find it really hard to delegate tasks.

Yes, but it's essential because the anchor of your life is you and Fisher, and I think it's it's calling that you have as well that you need to be with your husband.

Yeah, and he is seriously the We're very lucky what we have.

You know, I think it doesn't come around every day, the type of relationship that we have.

We're very supportive, and you know, he's just taught me.

He works his absolute ass off, and like, I mean, he's inspired by me and I'm inspired by him.

And it's we do have this like really amazing ebb and flow in which I've got along with the ride for his career and you know, I've had some pretty exciting peaks in my career recently, and like we're just kind of like learning to do that dance of like whose turn it is to peak and whose turn it is to babysit?

Ye, right, But it's great because we just love being together.

When you first met him and you were twenty and you were in Bali and you were on a girl's trip, he was there on a surfing trip.

Yeah, and you'd seen him the day before, you'd clocked him.

Yeah, tell me about that night when you connected.

Yeah.

So I'd always been in the surfing industry because my best friend Laura, she's a professional surfar.

My brother is a surfer and he was on the tour, and so i'd kind of seen him, not him around, because he was never on the tour that my brother was on, but i'd seen videos because he was a bit of Alaric, and you know, he used to make his own videos and that's what he was known for, this crazy guy.

So I recognized his face the day before I was I had actually been in a long term relationship out of high school with my high school sweetheart for a few years before that, and we had just split up because we're like, we're so young, let's go and explore and see what happens and if we're drawn together again later than we are.

But so this was my very first girl's trip away.

And then that night, we're at a bar called Alley Kats in Poppy's Lane in Coutera.

If you know that bar, you know it's pretty.

Gross in the thick of it.

In the thick of it.

And I was sitting at one side of the bar with all my girlfriends, just drinking, and he was at the other side of the bar with a few boys that I knew from Marubra.

And I do remember this and it's so cringe, but I do remember looking at him and I don't know why I did it, but I like did the head nod, like hey with my head, and I don't know what.

I must have been very confident and had a few drinks that night, and I he reckons he was just not drinking that night.

He was just having meatballs for dinner, and he's like, who is this girl?

And anyone else see that that girl over there?

Give me the nod.

And then seriously, half an hour later I was at their table talking them because I knew some of his friends and them were on the cooter surfboard down the street.

Then we're at the Bounty and then that old trip, like we were really inseparable.

I mean, I think I met him and I was like, yeah, you're fine.

We just had the best n i'd ever got, like I've got a girl's trip ahead of me.

And he just kept on.

This is before iPhones or anything.

Like he had a BlackBerry.

I swear to god, he had a full BlackBerry with all the letters on it didn't have any messages.

Yeah, exactly.

Well, it was back in twenty twenty thirteen, so it was quite a long time ago.

I think I got him Instagram on that trip actually because I was like, we're gonna have to contact somehow, and then yeah, we just kept on running into each other.

And he then went from Bali to Hawaii at the end of the year and was in the surfing competitions over there.

My brother was over there, my friend Laura was over there, and I remember telling my brother before he went on that trip, I said, yeah, I met this guy in Bali and his name's Poor Fisher and port Cooper said, Nah, hopefully it's not the Poor Fisher that I know, and Laura said the exact same thing, and I was like, I think it is.

But I saw a difference him and I still to this day do see a different side of him, like to what everyone else sees.

You know.

He yes, he is finn and loud and crazy and Alarican, but he's seriously the softest, most kind hearted, loving family oriente like I struggle to getting out to socialize.

I swear to God when we're home because he just wants to be with us.

But yeah, he said say to Laura that trip.

I met him in the June.

This was in the November, and he said, I'll marry that girl one day.

And I'm like, that's a big call to say that after knowing someone that we live in different countries, but he reckons he said that to Laura.

She remembers it, so yeah.

Don't go anywhere.

After the break, Chloe shares how taking a big risk and a chance on love changed everything for her and Paul, I thought this is so romantic, so romantic when he came back to surprise you and turned up at your girlfriend's house.

Yeah, yeah, so that was that was after this trip, so the November.

So we just spoke every day.

But he lived in La or in California surfing and I lived in Australia.

I was working at ACP Magazines at the time, and I was like, this is just never going to work.

But we were so drawn to each other that we just it was so natural.

We just loved speaking with each other.

And he said to me one day, I'm going pig hunting for a few days, so you're not going to hear from me.

I'm going out into the bush in Hawaii, so like I'm not going to be able to speak to you.

And I said, oh, okay, cool, yep, no worries, go for it.

And he asked my brother for our dress to send me flowers for Christmas.

Turns out he was just getting the address because he just went straight to the airport and got on the next flight to Sydney and turned up on my mum and dad's doorstep that next morning and was like, I'm here to see Chloe and my family.

My mom was like, who are you?

Yeah, and I hadn't made it home from work yet, so Mum's calling me, what are you doing?

What are you doing?

I'm not coming home, going to Laura's for dinner.

So she actually had to bring him to Laura's and was like, I don't know what to do with this guy, but like, he's here to see Chloe.

Apparently you know him.

Can he hang here?

And so yeah, I went to Laura's to pick her up for dinner, and sure enough I walked into the house and he was there to surprise me.

And we really have been together ever since.

We did long distance for a really long time.

And then you went to the States with him.

Yeah, So I had like another big trip planned for some of the girls twenty firsts, and we went there in the May of the following year, and I just decided, you know what, I'm just going to book a one way ticket and I quit my job, took the risk, broke.

I got there, he lost his job, Both of us broke.

Well when I started, what was his job?

Then he was sponsored for surfing.

Yeah, he was answered by the shoe bran Reef all right.

So honestly, within weeks of me arriving, he got let down, like let go from the team and that's when he started Djane.

He'd always been Djane, but not like making a career of it and putting his head down.

So he started.

Yeah, back in like twenty fourteen, seriously, he was in a duo called Cut Snake with another Aussie guy, and then a few years later he separated from that duo and started Fisher.

Now, this I think is very good to hear, because I think there's a real tendency to look at people's lives and they look so perfect and in retrospect everything seems like it's been a clear path.

But at the time it was not a clear path.

You were just too broke Aussies having a tilt at something overseas.

Really you didn't know each other that well, I guess, Yeah, though you did feel that intense connection.

Yeah, it was actually quite hard for me at the start, because I, like I said at the beginning, I'm such a homebody.

So the uncertainty for me, I really struggled with, like when am I going home to Australia, What's next?

Like and yeah, that is something that I really found hard.

He like that.

And I also didn't have a job, and I couldn't work in America because I didn't have a working visa.

So that's when I started working on my swimwear label, which I owned for seven or eight years.

I actually just sold it before our wedding in twenty twenty, and so I made and designed and manufactured swimwear because I was like, I got to do something.

I can't sit back and I would never expect anyone to support me.

So I honestly we lived off nothing like I actually don't even know how we made money, because you know, when he was in the duo, you get like a couple of thousand dollars and you split that by two and then you have to pay for your accommodation, your flights, you travel like and yeah, so you know, we are very We lived down in Oceanside in California and ate baked beans on toast for dinner, two minute noodles.

Lived with my mum and dad when we'd come back to Australia, and he wo, he always reminds me of that, you know, He's like, I can't believe I'm a thirty year old man living with my girlfriend's parents in the front room at their house with three other siblings and a dog.

It's just like, it's quite funny to look back on, but we did it.

I guess though.

The through line, the through line with both of you is you're both very family oriented people, and I take that to refer to your extended family as well, that you or your chosen family are friends who you travel with and you've navigated so much of life with.

Was there a moment where you said to Paul, I want to start our own family.

Yeah, I think naturally.

The closer we got to getting married, I was sort of just like, oh, we should, you know, we should just wait because I kind of want to fit my wedding dress and like, let's just get past the wedding.

And that was just in my mind.

But I was only speaking of to someone about this the other day, like we'd never in our whole relationship ever really I think probably at the beginning I was on the pill, but other than that, there was no contraception.

But I didn't realize it was.

I thought it was kind of hard to fell pregnant, like, and people that I tell now, they're like, you never used any sort of contraception for like seven years and you never felt pregnant, And I was like, no, but I just I didn't even think to look into it, like how does it work?

You know?

So when we naturally felt pregnant at our wedding, I was like, oh my god, how easy was that?

Like that was just the easiest thing ever.

And then it was just like all downhill from there until it became uppealing twenty twenty four.

And that first loss.

How was that?

And how was that for your relationship?

Yeah, it was a shock.

I actually, you know, I remember it really clearly because I told all my friends.

It was actually a weird one because it was during COVID as well, so you couldn't have partners in scanned.

You couldn't have partners like anywhere around you, So it was a very isolating experience, and you know, the partners struggle just as much like emagency, like dropping your partner in the front of a doctor's surgery or a hospital to go and have a DNC by yourself, and you just sit in the car and wait for her to come out, and wait for her to walk out of there.

Like it was really tough, and I was really I was very hesitant to share my experience.

We've obviously got a platform on social media that we have a strong following, and that was all organic through you know, like our travels and his career and you know, just bits and pieces that we've done.

So it was a bit scary and daunting because our audiences were so big.

And just one day after, I was sort of in recovery mode, I thought, you know what, I'm going to talk about this because I'm feeling pretty low and I'm feeling pretty down, and maybe this might make me feel a little bit better, to get it off my chest.

And that was sort of a turning point when I did that, the influx of messages, it really made me feel less alone, absolutely because when I spoke of it, the amount of people that messaged me and said that they had had a miscarriage, friends that I never knew about.

I was like, oh my god, this is way too common.

Why are people not talking about this more?

Okay, So, Chloe, why do you think that is that there is such a silence from women about pregnancy loss.

Honestly, I actually just I wonder if it's because if you talk about it, then you feel a little bit like you feel like a little bit like you're a victim.

You're like, oh, poor me.

You don't want to kind of like make people feel sorry for you because you know you're going through it, but for me, And it's a weird thing too, it is, it is, it is, but it isn't weird to talk about.

Like I find it easy to talk about now because because I've been speaking about it for so long, But it's very emotional, and sometimes maybe people don't want to like open up the wounds again, perhaps because you know you go through it, you want to go through that.

You know, you go through the ups and the downs and all of that alone pretty much or with your partner or with your family.

But by the end of my journey, when I had my fourth miscarriage, I was almost not wanting to tell people because I was like, I don't want people to feel sorry for me anymore.

So over people like getting upset as well my family would get really upset.

My mom was just beside herself and she struggled so much, and so like I would be like, oh my god, I don't want to have this.

Like people would get win that.

I was like, you know, having a bleed, and then they check in on you every day, and like it's amazing, it's beautiful, but it's a lot.

Sometimes it's just easier to go through that alone, you know, because sometimes the emotions of others actually weigh you down as well, even though it's coming from a good place.

That's true.

And also I think a girlfriend of mine said to me once, who'd had three miscarriages, She said to me, I feel so ashamed and that it's illogical.

We know it's illogical, but when anyone who's experienced anything with their body betraying them in a way that you don't expect your body to is familiar.

I think with that sensation, yeah, with that feeling, and also with pregnancy, there's, like you alluded to before as well, there's the partner.

So did you ever have the sense or did you ever have the conversation with Paul as you had these ensuing miscarriages that you were taking him into a life where he might not be able to be a father.

Yeah, I for sure had.

There was a few really low moments in the journey where I was thinking, you really, you blame yourself?

You do because you're like, I've been born into this world, I've been given this body.

Why aren't you doing what I need you to do?

It should be so natural, And in our case, we didn't really have answers for a very long time.

So I was always I mean, at the end of the day, he was like, I'm here to support you whatever happens, Like I know, even if it becomes at the end of the line and we end up adopting a child, Like I knew that we would get a child at some point.

That was a no brainer for me.

But yeah, it was so so upsetting watching him.

I think it was the third miscarriage.

We lost a set of twins and he canceled like these big string of shows over season, like what I did at the start, and with my first miscarriage.

He actually was debating whether or not to talk about it on social media, like he's got two million followers or whatever, and he was like, oh my god, do I do this?

And I think it is this weird sense of being ashamed, like people are almost embarrassed to talk about it in a way, And we both just decided, nah, like what, like, what's the worst that's going to happen here?

People might become a little bit more understanding of him canceling this show if he explains the truth and I said, you have to tell the truth, and he did, and it was he said, he's never experienced an outreach like it from other men.

Su isn't that beautiful?

What did the other men say?

Thank you for talking about this.

I've been through this as well, and I haven't told anyone about it.

And just you know, it's so amazing to see people in the public, a public figure like yourself talking about these real life, raw, vulnerable moments that not many people talk about.

You usually see the high lights, but you don't see the low lights.

His life looks like it's like sunshine and rainbows, but behind this phone right now, he's going through one of the most traumatic events that he's gone through.

So for him to be able to share that moment and for other men to be able to be like, oh shit, other men go through this too, because it's just as much as a taboo topic for women as it is met, it's actually a bit more taboo for men to talk about.

I can't imagine them on smoker going, oh, I'm going through a miscarriage at home, Like.

No, you just wouldn't hear about it, and because so much about physicality is a mystery to them anyway, Totally.

Yeah, it's so hard.

It's really really hard.

And I think that that's one tip that I always say when people said, what is a piece of advice, I'm like, learn about it, Like knowledge is power, And I feel like talking about miscarriage is hard, and it's actually probably never going to get easier.

But the more you understand it and the more you know, you will know someone who's going to have a miscarriage at some point in your life, whether it's your sister, your cousin, your best friend.

And you do need to know this stuff, like you do need to know how to be able to support people because most of the time they're going to do this alone.

They're going to do it in silent and you actually probably won't even know about it.

But I think just I watched that documentary called Misunderstandings of Miscarriage, and I think It's one of the most amazing documentaries I've ever seen by Tahina Manis, and it's great.

I tell everyone you should watch it.

It's just so insightful and it's just learning about it.

And that's like when I was going through all my fertility stuff, when my friends would go away and they'd do their research about things that were happening to me, and they'd come to me and be like, oh, I was looking this up.

And they're not trying to like tell me what to do, but they're just trying to say, I'm learning about this from a deeper level, on the.

Really acutely personal level.

For instance, when you went in to look at the heartbeats of the twins and the heartbeats weren't there.

Where do you get the strength from in that moment?

I still remember that that moment so vividly.

I was in the waiting room before and there's it's of women's ultrasound clinics.

There's women all in there pregnant and looking at their photos of their babies.

And I actually didn't go in thinking that there was anything rock.

I actually didn't even know there was twins at that point.

And I remember Paul was with me, and we were sitting in there and they were just there's no easy way of ripping that band aid off.

But you just know as soon as the room goes a little bit silent, and you know what, the only thing that really gave me like a bit of comfort in that moment.

And it's like so sad because it still makes me really upset, But the two of them were like right next to each other, and that was like they were cuddling, and I was like, oh my god, life, Like can why, like you can't be this cruel?

Like I knew that I'd lot like there was you know, I knew that there was something bad had gone wrong, but I didn't really know the depth of that.

But and I had never seen the two of them together in my uterus, and that was so tough.

And I remember just thinking, you just how do I even put one foot in front of the other to get to the car?

How do you?

How do you?

Is it blind?

You just cry?

It's a definitely a blur.

It's very foggy.

I still to this day, I look back and even when I was reading my book back, I felt like that wasn't me, Like I'm like, I can't believe that that person went through that and the body, I feel like, has got this weird and amazing way of getting you through these these crazy life experiences, you know, I think, and I always say Greek like, grief is not linear.

It hits you at the weirdest times, and you could be having the best day of your life and you will see something like I always talk in the book about feathers.

I'll see a feather, I'm like, what is that?

What does that mean?

Is there another baby on the horizon?

Like is there something like?

I always look for signs, and I just I've found myself, especially now being pregnant.

I'm so emotional, so you can do nothing and I'll just end up in tears.

And I always think about and all the babies that I lost for boys as well, which is like it's like I always scratched my head and I think maybe I just couldn't carry boys because Bobby I was convinced was a boy my whole pregnancy there was I would have bet my house on it, this is one hundred percent a boy.

And then when I gave birth and Paul told me it's a girl, it was just like, oh my goodness.

I got my little mini me, my little angels.

So yeah, I don't know.

I don't know why I couldn't carry boys.

Maybe that is that is a reason.

I'm not sure, so who knows.

We'll see what happens with this one.

Coming up after this short break, Chloe recounts the scary complications she experienced during her first birth, even the birth of Bobby, who is not a boy, And in that beautiful moment after it, once again, you had the really descent into I guess the darkness of your physical response to the birth.

You had that in the intense bleeding.

Yeah, yeah, I had.

The birth was I think, you know, as standard as you can get.

Birth is crazy.

It's just like I didn't expect it to be that crazy, but is crazy.

It was.

I remember screaming like, I'm never so animal.

It's animal.

Oh my god.

I was like, I'm never doing this ever again.

This is the worst thing in my entire life.

However, I'm going to do it again because I'm The connection that I had with Paul was like something that I've never experienced ever in my entire life.

Like I think this is so weird to say this, but I actually think it was better than my wedding day, Like it was just like that was just incredible.

But yeah, then things sort of took a turn about half an hour after I had given birth to Bobby, and I kind of handed Bobby off to Paul, which apparently is a red flag in the medical room in the labor suite when a mother hands a baby away.

And Elidie was there my best year and she was actually on her way out to get mc donald's for us all.

She was on her way to get happy meals and as she was walking out the room, she's like, I don't know if I should say this, but like you look like shit, Like you look you're not looking good.

And she said to the midwife like she's white, and I remember her saying that.

And then the next thing I remember is like button was pressed.

They pressed down on my belly because they had just stitched me back up because I had had an episiotomy, And when they pressed on my stomach, Paul said that the amount of blood and clots that just came out was something like a horror film.

And it was like within two seconds, it was like, Paul, give her a kiss, Chloe, give the baby a kiss.

We're going we've got to go to theater immediately.

And I remember them running down the hallways.

It was seriously like it was like in a movie.

And I remember holding onto my midwife's hand and it was that moment that I was thinking, I'm going to die here, This is this how I'm dying, because I was kind of, you know, I was just like going in and out of consciousness.

I was there enough to know that something bad had happened, but not really no one really had told me other than the fact that they're like, we need to get you to theater immediately.

My weed wife said, when you're not going to die, We're going to save you.

But it was definitely a feeling of like this is it for me?

And then yeah, I just had basically when my placenta came off the wall of my uterus and my uterus didn't contract and it like closes that hole up, so my uterus was sort of still open and they'd stitched me up and it was just fully bleeding out internally and I lost a lot of blood, and so they had to open me back up, get the blood out, and then give me two blood transfusions.

And then it took me a while to recover from that.

Like I was so weak, I couldn't even I just remember when I got taken out and I was in ICU that night.

They was bringing the baby down and Paul's just like telling me after just what knew lay there pretty much lifeless, and the midwife's hand like holding the baby on my boob and like actually feeding the baby from my boob.

He's like, it was just crazy, but yeah, it was.

It was pretty traumatic.

And then you had a period of postpartum after that as well, which is probably not surprising given those traumas.

Yeah, I had this moment where I don't know, I just envisioned everything that it was meant to be, and it was, in the end the opposite of that.

And I remember being eventually when I made it back up to the maternity ward, I didn't want to see anyone.

I was like so white and so and I'm quite I've got quite olive skin, so for the color of me was ridiculous.

It was sickening, and looking back at photos, I was so swollen and I didn't want to see anyone.

It was really weird and it really caught me off garden.

I remember my family wanting to visit and I didn't even want to see I literally wanted to see nobody except for Paul and my baby.

And it was so confusing to me because I was like, what is going on?

This is all I've ever wanted, But I'm scared to leave the hospital.

I'm scared.

I don't want to see people.

I can't even talk on the phone to my mum or my family without balling my eyes out.

I don't actually know what's wrong.

There's nothing.

There is something wrong, obviously, but I've got this beautiful, healthy baby.

I'm trying to keep alive while keeping myself alive.

And I remember Elodie said to me, I think you've got like the baby.

You've got this sink called baby blues.

And it wasn't full blown depression.

It definitely wasn't that.

And I'm not going to say that I had postpartum depression or anything, but I definitely had a period of maybe a couple of weeks where I've one hundred percent had this thing called baby blues, I guess you could say.

And it eventually lifted.

But I did really find the postpartum healing process almost as bad as the labor because I had the episiotomy, and it was that, on top of the blood loss, the weakness I felt, I really struggled to just keep me alive.

But then it's so funny.

You go home from the hospital and you're like, oh my gosh, I've got to keep a child alive.

Now.

It's almost like you can't believe you're allowed to leave a hospital, Like you're not allowed to drive a car without a license, but anyone can take a baby home.

It's so crazy, like you just life is so wild and it's so funny because I thought I was so prepared, like I'm like, how hard can it be?

And then it was like ah, me in the face literally, and you know, yeah, it was crazy.

It's also thank goodness for led again because you in you telling that, I'm struck by how you've been rewarded for the love that you showed her in her darkest hour, like even being one of the movers to get the is it post.

Mortem sperm retrieval?

Yeah, from Chumpy that you were thinking like that obviously, because you've always been very motivated by motherhood.

But there's such a finite window to harvest sperm that you were thinking of that when she of course, would have been so overwhelmed by grief at the time, that wouldn't have been her thoughts that you speak in your book very candidly about kind of reconciling the losses that you'd had with the babies you and Paul.

That's saying maybe if you'd had your own baby, you wouldn't have been able to be as present and involved with Elerdy and Chumpy's daughter, Minnie, who's so important to you.

I feel that, really, really deeply still to this day, because I know how crazy the hood is and I know how busy everyone is, and there's no way if we had we were pregnant together.

At one point we were, I think my second pregnancy.

She was pregnant with Minnie, so I was a few weeks behind, and there's just no way that if I had that baby, there's no way we would have been able to be there for el or be in Minnie's life the way that we were, because we were so whenever we were in Australia, Minnie was our daughter as well, and we'd bring them on trips with us, and knowing how chaotic it is to have your own child, that wouldn't have been the case.

If we had a baby back at the same time, one hundred percent.

And do you think having Mini there as well was a beacon of what could be for you and Paul.

Yeah, Minnie, Minnie saved us all in so many ways.

I remember when I had one of my miscarriages and all I wanted was Minni literally, that is, I didn't want to say anyone.

All I wanted was this little girl.

She is that she is still one of the biggest joys in our life as well, Like she's absolutely utterly obsessed with Poor He's the best father figure to her.

But yeah, she Yeah, we love her so much.

And people often get confused because they thought we had Minni so much in our life previously, that people thought that she was our child and then they always they do say these days, like what about the other daughter?

But but as you know, though, like you know, as kids get older, you're not as cool anymore, or you don't want to be hung out with, as you know.

But it's really beautiful to see Minnie and Bobby together.

Bobby's obsessed with Minni.

She calls her Mimi, and everything's Mimi, Mimi, where are you Mimi?

But yeah, it is really beautiful, the kind of modern family that we've created together.

Yes, and that even as you've filled the well for them, when you've needed a drink, you've gone to the well, and the well has had plenty for you as well.

We do have a really good support system up here on the Gold Coast.

And I saw eld came out the other day and she went she did a hard launch with a new boyfriend or new partner or whatever.

Yeah, how's how's that been in the mix as well?

Honestly, it's just like really naturally just we we actually knew him previously, Like he's not a stranger.

He's actually the brother of one of our really good friends.

So of course we don't worry.

We did the background work.

No, he's so lovely and like he like he's so good with the girls, and it's it's it's so nice, like genuinely touches my heart seeing how happy and that sparkle back in L's eyes, And you know, I just I'm really excited to see how it makes me cry, look crying, how it unfolds for her because she deserves to have that love again.

You know, it's been a really long time, and you know, I feel and each to their own and exactly what I said before, grief is not linear and people grieve in different ways.

Some people move on really fast, but it wasn't the case for l And it was really important because she obviously had many that if she was going to bring someone into her life, it had to be the right kind of person.

And yeah, I think he's just that.

It's very very special.

Because you know so much about grief.

How much of that do you take with you?

I know you said you think about the little ones that you lost, how much do you take forward into your life, Like, now you're on the cusp of this new life, how do you reconcile that with the loss you've had?

Like, I don't think anything's going to be able to, you know, cover up or what's happened.

It is what it is, And I don't know.

I just always think that you have to keep moving forward, and I really try.

You know, I can only really speak for myself on this one, because I've had miscourriages and I have lost my grandmother and my grandfather and stuff like that, but I haven't had a really really crazy, crazy loss of a partner, for example.

So I think that that grief would be much harder one to move forward with.

But I don't know.

I always I just allow my body to feel it when I want to feel it.

If I'm having a shit day, I let myself have a shit day.

If I want to have a few tears and just get in the shower and cry, I do that.

But yeah, I just ebb and flow, and like there's no right or wrong way of dealing with grief.

Everyone deals with it completely differently.

And I really just try and look on the bright side and I try to make some sort of happiness out of every situation as much as I can.

And you know, we're very lucky to live in this world, and I'm healthy, my family's healthy, and like I know that everyone isn't that blessed.

But that's like a whole reason why I'm just like, keep going, Chloe, you know, light, And I kind of tell myself, like life does go on, and you do need to evolve and be really grateful and really present with what you have.

And I'm trying not to get myself down or get bogged down in the heavy, heavy grief.

And let it wash over you.

Yeah, yeah, and then keep moving forward.

Yeah, if you could.

And I think a lot of people have taken strength from you sharing your own stories.

If you could go back to yourself, for instance, you on the beach putting the two white roses on the sand for the twins.

If you could go back to that Chloe and say something to her, what would you say.

I'd probably say, don't give up.

I know you won't, but something will happen for you in some way, shape or form.

And don't think that the path is going to be smooth, because there's so many different endings that could have been a possibility.

And be open to change, and be open and resilient to whatever life throws at you, because you still have some curveballs in the road.

But try and just keep putting one foot in front of the other, because it is going to work out in the end, even if.

You're putting that one foot in front of the other.

On the toe, one toe in front of the other.

Yes, yeah, one toe, one toe, Oh, Chloe Fisher.

I wish you every happiness.

Thank you so much, thanks so much for having me on here, and I'm glad that we got to get on here and have this chat.

Yes, appreciate it and it will mean a lot to a lot of people thank you.

We can't wait to see the new member, the new little fisherman or Fisher girl.

Yes next year.

There's something about speaking with someone who's lived through such loss and still radiates hope and is not afraid to share the stories of that loss, which is sometimes what we hang on to, as though speaking it aloud somehow reflects poorly on us or brings with it the attendant shame.

What stays with me after talking to Chloe Fisher is her ability to hold both the grief and the joy, to speak about miscarriage and IVF and heartbreak with grace, to still find laughter and light on the other side, and be mindful of those who are still on the negative side of that equation.

Chloe's memoir Always You is out now, and if you or someone you love is walking through fertility challenges or pregnancy loss, or if they're crawling through you can find support through the Pink Elephant support network.

We've linked them in our show notes.

Thanks for listening to No Filter.

The executive producer of No Filter is Nama Brown, The senior producer is bre Player.

Audio production is by Tina Mattloff, and video editing is by Josh Green.

This episode was recorded at Session in Progress Studios.

I am your host Kate Langbrook, and I will see you next Monday.

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters that this podcast is recorded on