You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.

Hello, No Filter listeners.

My name is Sarah Bays.

I'm a clinical psychotherapist and the host of Mamma MIA's newest podcast, This is Why We Fight, where eight different pairs share their relationship challenges in authentic therapy sessions so that you can benefit from what they learn and also learn more about the therapy process.

I think that No Filter fans would be particularly interested in Jess and David, a couple with very different definitions of cheating and who are very different needs and communication styles, and they're grappling with how to move forward in their relationship.

Have a listen.

I hope you enjoy.

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters.

This podcast was recorded.

On So for me, I feel that he is ashamed of me, embarrassed of me.

I feel like I'm good enough for him, but not for his public image, and that really hurts and that makes me feel really insecure.

He doesn't post anything of us on his social media.

He hasn't introduced me to his family.

You know, I don't know many of his friends.

I feel at times like I'm a side peace.

Welcome to This is why we fight real people, real problems, real therapy.

My name is Sarah Bays.

I'm a clinical psychotherapist with over a decade of training working with individuals, couples, and families.

This series has been designed to allow you, our listeners, to sit in on the therapy sessions of other people who are grappling with the challenges in their relationships, because I firmly believe that we can learn so much from each other.

Today you're meeting Jess and David Perth couple.

Jess and David are in their forties.

They're not married, but they've been in a long term relationship for some time and they both have children from previous relationships.

Jess is an office administrator and David, originally from New Caledonia, is a music teacher.

Jess and David are here today to address a number of things that have been challenging their relationship, from different definitions of cheating to trust and boundaries.

Here's session one with Jess and David.

All right, Hello Jess and David.

It's lovely to see you guys.

Hello.

Hi, I guess what I'd usually like to start with or it can be helpful for me to know if you've had experience in therapy as a couple before, and if so, what went well, what didn't go well?

Okay, so we've tried therapy twice.

The first time was a bizarre experience.

David's running a little bit late, and I sat there and chatted to the therapist for a couple of minutes, and then he came along and he was probably there for like, it felt like about maybe five or ten minutes, and the therapist said, oh, look, she put her pen down and she said, I don't think you two should be together.

And we kind of looked at each other and we didn't know what to do, and we left and we gave each other a hug and we were like processing it, and then she walked past us, and it was just like really weird because it was an evening appointment, so we must have been her last one.

It's just all very awkward and what a horrible first experience it was.

It was for a couple two.

The second one did not go any better.

He initiated it because he thought we should we give it another go.

So David initiated it.

He did, yeah, yeah, yeah, And so he did all the booking and everything like that, and I went there and I ended up walking out because I was just so triggered by something that he said.

It is what I said, And I guess it happens also when I have an argument together, but it was there in front.

Of someone else.

Okay, so this is something that happens at home when you guys argue sometimes.

Yeah.

So sometimes Jess will walk away.

Or or not walk away.

It usually goes you know, it doesn't end up well.

We have like really bad arguments in that situation, but here she she wanted to go away.

I guess it, you know, because in front of someone else it's probably better.

Yeah, Jess, can you tell me a little bit about what happened for you in terms of the walking out.

Yeah.

So we had not long got back together.

We had separated for about six months, and during that time he had been very close to another woman who is very very different from me, and her outlook on life is different, her morals are different, and basically that left me feeling really insecure because I'm like, if he wants this in a woman, how is he ever going to be you know, how am I ever going to be enough for him?

Because that's not who I am that's not who I want to be, and it left me feel really upset.

And when we went into this therapy session, the therapist was trying to get background from us, and so I raised this other woman as being a big issue for me because it was leaving me feeling very insecure, because I was also surprised that he would be interested in someone so different from me in that way.

So it left me wondering also, not only am I not going to be enough for him, but who actually is the sky because we're so different.

And the first thing he did was start talking about her and his connection to her and how lovely she is, and I'm just like, I just thought, hang on, we're supposed to be here for us.

And in that moment rather than going into the actual situation, because I want us to be able to set up what we can do today, if you know, because sometimes therapy is about hearing things that are uncomfortable, painful, difficult, might make you angry.

Yeah, like, what could we do today?

So there was something there where you've been triggered really upset?

Is there something that we could do if a similar thing occurred?

Is there something that you could say to us?

Is there something that you could do that you think could help kind of bring things back down, or I guess we're trying to avoid the conversation being count are to me, to both of you, yeah, both of you.

Well, I don't know.

Actually it's a bit of an interesting one because my point was not to talk nicely about that that woman.

My point was to explain why, Like I said, I was saying, why, you know, was I attracted to her for a while not very long really, but uh, and I just try to explain.

I think it just just heard something different to what I was saying because she was concentrating on her you know, the issue at hand.

I was just trying to explain what happened and to I mean to be honest about like they say that, you know, I mean it's you that I want, and you know, I don't think you have to worry.

Okay, So if we bring it back to so there's that reassurance there, which I think is lovely.

David, And I think you know, I'm hoping for you, Jess that coming into today there is a sense of or at least a hope to be able to work through some of the difficult conversations without it having to abruptly end.

I think breaks are okay, Pauses are okay.

You know, if you need to step out or if Dave, you know this goes theme for you.

If anybody needs to call time for just a little break and just recenter, come back in, that's completely fine.

I guess it's sort of looking at the commitment between the two of you is I don't have to say things that you like or say things that make you happy, but I do have to try and give you the space if you need to calm down so that we can continue the conversation.

Does that feel okay for both of you?

It absolutely does.

And I think for me, I'm you know, I'm in my forty and i've you know, we've obviously both had relationships prior to this.

In my relationships, I was cheated on multiple times.

When I picked up on it, I was what we now call gas lid into believing that, you know, I was imagining things I wasn't.

And so I know in myself that I'm on high alert and that I'm easily triggered, and I know that I need a lot more reassurance than perhaps most guys would expect to have to give because of that, But I just I feel like I really need him to understand that if he is able to give me that reassurance when I'm triggered, if he's able to continue to make me feel safe, to remind me that he's using me, then that will build up enough in my bank that I can not worry so much about these other things or not look at something else and perhaps jump to what might not be the case.

And I'm just assuming, just is this one of the reasons that you wanted to start this process again, because I think it was you who wanted to come into this couples therapy process.

Is this one of the things you wanted to address?

It absolutely is, because we've been together on and off for such a long time, and it's the same issues again and again and again, and it's the same issues for me and for him.

I believe it's the same issues as well.

He'll talk soon.

Yeah, i'd like to before I forget, because I always going to answer something to but.

You finished off.

Yeah, I just I know, I know nobody's perfect, and I know I fit into that category of course too, But I just feel that when you love someone, you give them what they need, especially if they know that they need it.

And then if I had that extra reassurance, extra security, extra love, I would feel more regulated and be able to let go of these worries more easily.

But that takes time.

And every time I get upset by something or triggered, instead of taking that opportunity to offer me that reassurance and therefore make me feel safe and actually make me feel closer to him, I feel like he feels that I don't trust him.

I'm attacking him.

I'm dragging up the past and it ends up making him upset and he escalates as well, and it's not healthy for either of us.

And we really need to be able to move past that.

Ye can I?

Yeah?

Because I mean.

Jess is actually a very good communicator.

She knows I said that several times.

Except so when we have an argument or that goes out of the windows, Okay, tell me what happens, so I I personally, okay, it's one You know a thing I've learned from being very.

Small boy, you know, which is, even if things are very very hard, and.

Even if you feel attacked, even if somebody is really horrible to you, tell the truth, be fair, what you your world's count like it's your worlds are so important.

Now, I must admit it's not always the case when you know, but I do try to be fair.

I try to I'm constructive.

I'm not destructive.

I'm not there to put down anyone.

So there's moments where I say, I think the words you're using, Jess are not always correct or helpful, and and so when I feel attacked, right, it's it's because I feel that in those moments where we start an argument, which could be something it would be good to when we start the argument to actually say, we could be very careful with our worlds where we're going, how we use them, and the aim should never be to to put down anyone.

So are you telling me that you feel put down by Jess in the arguments?

Could you give me an example?

Yeah?

I oh, it's a bit okay, So I'm a bit well, okay, when fish.

You're a bit worried, and what are you worried about?

Now?

Now, what's gonna happen?

I'm just gonna okay, I'm gonna say it again.

So Jess tells me she says that cheated on her okay, which is because she feels she has a different definition for me, it's it's actually.

Highly I feel really.

Very hurt by that because it's not true and I care about her, and I mean, you know what I did, I didn't really you know.

I mean, I'm not sleeping with anyone else when we're together.

I did it once when we were separated, because we had several times we were separated.

But I actually really care to be fair, to be.

Also if there's an issue, I want to be direct and because we have so, because I I feel like it's a bit unfair on.

Me the word so it's the word cheese.

That world there's that's one one of those things, okay, but it's not the only one.

There's a few things like that that.

I feel that, well, one what are we?

You know what I mean?

And I feel when it's like that, when I feel put down, and I'm like, you know, do I want to go on?

Okay?

I need to be respected.

And then if I feel respected, even in moments where it's really difficult, we have an argument, we need to have respect, just the moment.

Where we need to have respect and we need to be careful.

And so then if I feel that, of course, then I want to say, if I feel like I'm attacked.

It's not just one way.

Okay, sometimes it's like it just goes almost I feel insulted.

If I feel insulted, I'm not gonna say, oh, I love you.

I wanna in that moment, I'm not gonna feel like that.

I want to stay with you, like if I so, what do we do?

Because that's my question, Like, because I feel that I'm I'm actually telling him, hey, you know, I'm being triggered by this because it reminds me of this thing that you did, and he feels attacked by that.

And what I'm actually really saying is I'm feeling insecure.

I need reassurance right now.

I need you to just hold me, tell me you love me, remind me that you're here, you know, give.

Me a hup.

So I forget all the At the moment, all the other noise disappears and it's just the two of us.

But he doesn't hear that.

He he is, you know you did this, and I'm still angry at you.

What do you And that's not what I'm saying, And I don't know what to do because that then his response his reaction to that when he feels attacked actually makes it worse.

So I feel even worse than I do when I just had that feeling on my own.

So first I'm feeling triggered, but I still try to talk to him about it.

It doesn't work.

It makes a situation worse because he feels attacked, you know, in his mind, I think, you know, why is she attacking me?

Why is she bringing up the past?

You know, I need to defend myself.

So I think there's two things.

I think there's two things happening.

One is, I think we might need to get some clarity about the past because if it sounds like there's not been some resolve around the past things that have happened, because if there were resolve around the past things that have happened, they might not come up as often or be as easily triggered.

And then the part two of this is that, Okay, even if something does come up and we get triggered, I really want us to break down, actually, what are the things that just that you do say because you've got the underlying message, but something about the words that you're saying is being heard by Dave in a different way.

And then we're going to work with Dave around Okay, how can I start to look at the message underneath and not immediately go to what might be the surface level content.

Yes, I think that's exactly what we need, because it's it's really hard.

We were actually talking about the SYS today and trying to we figure it out, but we don't know what the answer is.

An argument, okay, you know when I say that's good, I say that's good because we can use that.

I actually feel like examples of real life recent arguments can actually go quite well for us to use as the kind of guinea pig for how do we do things differently.

I'd like to say that the reason why we got out of that argument is because Jess is actually very good communicator.

So she managed to put down things.

In a way that I realized what she was fitting and what I don't even though if it's really old stuff that came again on her face a look like that story and we told you.

She managed to so make me go there with her and I could sort of empathize, and then I sort of okay, I got it, you know a little bit.

I mean, it's it's her point of view.

It's not all the tools or whatever.

I can't see Oh, it's not even it's my it's not like it's not the way.

You don't have to agree.

It's not like I didn't do anything wrong exactly.

It's not the problem.

It's how she felt because of what happened or what I did wrong or not.

And I think that's a difference between validating and agreeing.

I can validate how you feel without saying, yes, you're right, I am a cheater and I did this and I did that.

You can validate.

I can see that you're feeling really insecure and that you need some closeness with me, or you need me to let you know that I love you right now, you know.

So you can say things like that without agreeing with the actual content of what they're thinking.

But what I need, that's what I need.

That's what I need.

And well, you're saying it went well yesterday in terms.

Of not well it went well at neand but well, okay.

You guys salvaged it.

So how did it go well?

Like what?

Because this is when the things that do work, it's important to note those.

So Jess managed to communicate it in a way that you could hear it.

What was it?

I could go with her in the way she feels.

So I managed to understand that, and I think, yeah, that's just but it it doesn't solve some of the but still there's a lot of communication that happened.

So and I have a previty about memory.

So some things I remember completely different from her.

I trust her more than me.

My memory is pretty shocking.

So, and when you're experiencing something, his view through a different lenes anyway.

So I'm viewing things through a different leanes from him anyway.

So even if we remember the same things, clearly, we're going to remember them a different way.

Yeah, but there's been there's been issues because what's what's been happening.

I mean, if you don't man, I can talk.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

What's been happening is Jesse is worried about my female friends that I've got.

So I do, I do some.

Music, and I have a lot of friends made of female and so she's worried at something there people I'm you know, attracted to or I want to be with or something.

So it ends up being very difficult for her to go to my music sessions or when I play live or something.

And I would really like her to come.

So I missed that.

I miss that she's not there with me when I do these things because it's something I'm proud of and I want her to be part of it.

So I playing at no.

You know, there's not really any words to have there, and actually it would be really I think she againes she wants to go.

She wants to go, she wants to find a way to go there.

I know you're a bit worried about the crowds as well.

I don't have a problem with his female friends.

I saw he had a lot of female friends when I met him, and I saw that as a green flag, and I was excited because I thought, I'm going to get a new group of girlfriends.

You know, if they love him, they're going to love me because I love him too.

We've got that in common.

But then, like you said earlier, I feel that he's cheated on me a couple of times.

They're things that he's said and done.

We talked about that a little bit yesterday, but we've got different ideas about that.

And I know I know people have you know, I've got friends who are Polly, I've got friends who, you know, diferal kinds of things.

But I think if both partners are on the same page, if that's okay.

But for me, I don't have a thing about his female friends.

I have a thing about like when we've had an argument and he says I should be with her instead of with you, and then he goes to her and he talks about our relationship issues, like, I don't think that's appropriate to talk to someone that you said that you should be with instead of me.

I don't want to go into a lot of details.

It's an argument now.

Well, but he takes that as me saying, well, he takes that as me saying, you can't talk to his female friends, and not what I'm saying, and what I'm saying not the ones that you told me that you would write.

And David, please do not worry.

You will you will get to it, like don't There is time for both of you, and I think it's important to let Jess say.

You know you've said that she has a problem with your friends, your female friends.

Jess is actually trying to tell you something that no, I don't.

I don't have a problem with your female friends, but I do there have been some things that you've said in the past, or you know that have made me feel uncomfortable with certain female friends.

And then now to you, David.

Tell us, Yeah, well, this particular incident is one that sort of didn't have the with the argument we had there before yesterday.

So I'm going to say that it's only a part of the toast the fact what we had after a big argument that day that I'm talking about a long time ago.

So was it what your or something?

And that was on the.

Phone, and I was very very stressed with it because again it's one of those times where I felt good, okay, and then after annoying feeling very annoyed and bothered and feeling like, oh god, I can't deal with that.

Then she asks me, so do you want to be do you prefer to be with that person?

I don't.

Well, I'm like at the moment, I'm sorry, but yeah.

You know I remember that differently.

I don't.

I'm sure I didn't say that at all.

He thinks I did.

Well, it was.

I've got about the memory, but I know it was something that you really did triggered it and it wasn't nice.

However that happened in some way, shape or form, it came out and not just you randomly bringing that up, saying, oh, you know, I think I should be with her, but yeah, that came out.

Yeah, Like, and when you feel like attacked for you know, hours or whatever, at the end you're like, god, I'll have enough.

You know, it's normal.

And I think this is it trying not to hear this as a criticism, David, because I think everybody can relate to saying things that we don't mean, or saying things without thinking when we're under stressed, when we're feeling criticized, when.

We're because it wasn't right, I'm not saying it as well.

I said that, yeah, And I think that's the bit is I can tell you don't think that that was a good thing to say, but it's hard to see that message when you are trying to justify why you said it, because it sort of makes it seem like, then, well, because Jess was doing this, this this to me, that's why that came out, which is logistically and factually potentially correct, But in that it gets lost that actually, you know what, I can understand how me saying that would be really hurtful and it doesn't mean and it makes sense as to why you might feel uncomfortable with me with this friend after I said something like that.

Does that feel true?

Yeah, I do, I do, And interestingly, I mean, we've been thinking to catch up with her together.

I'm still worried that.

I don't know how it's gonna if it could work, but it'd be good.

So, Jess, you're seeming a little bit about about Dave being worried.

Do you think there's anything to worry about Dave.

I think Dave's worried about the wrong thing.

I think he should be worried about supporting me and making me feel safe going into a situation with a women, women that I consider that he you know, kind of like emotionally cheated on me with.

But he's worried that I'm going to say something.

I'm not going to say something to her.

I run from confrontation.

I don't like it at all.

I'm very I'm not very.

You're not going to cause a problem with strong.

And that sense or anything.

Well, I'm more likely to run away I am.

And he knows that deep down.

I'm sure he does.

But and look, this person is probably a lovely person.

I've you know, not heard anything nasty about them.

But I don't have anything personally against this person at all, you know, And and I don't mind if he I mean, I don't like him talking about our relationship to his friends, but I know that that's what people do, and I know that I have done it, so it's fair that he does it too.

And it's good that he's got a couple of friends he can trust enough to talk to about our relationship.

And you know what, if that females, that is potentially even better because I'm probably a bit more empathetic and can give him the female viewpoint.

But what I do have a problem with is him talking to someone that he said he should be with instead of me, And that is the issue I take with it.

So I don't I don't know, like I know now he didn't think that.

I know that was a heat of the moment thing, but still there's a little part of me that, you know, doubts, like, you know, when I meet her, am I going to be comparing myself to her?

You know?

She is she kinder than me?

Is she smarter than me?

Does she you know, have a better job than me?

Does she?

Is she prettier than me?

Is she you know, thinner than me?

All that kind of thing.

You know.

I'm just a little bit worried if that's what my mind is going to do.

And I don't want to be feeling like that if I do meet her.

And she's a good friend of his, so I feel like I should if I do meet her, I want it to be where I'm in a better place, So I don't I'm not at risk of you know, defaulting too wanting to look for reasons why she's better than me.

Yeah, can I can answer that.

No, I'm saying the first thing is she's not better than you, okay, and I would not have chosen you if it was the case.

She's you and.

And but efybody's different.

And I do love people in general.

I like people.

I enjoy, you know, having discussions with different types of people and learning from them.

And so for me, appreciating people is like I like that, you know, it's I So I guess I said to her.

Yeah, I have a lot of friends and I love them all in a way.

Right, doesn't mean I'm going to go and sleep with them, But I love having discussions with a lot of different people, and yeah, it's it's important for me.

Yeah, And I don't think it sounds like just as saying there's anything wrong with that part.

No, I just need for him to realize that he's got a girlfriend who's been lied to and cheat it on in the past.

He's got a girlfriend who you know, and our relationship, we both made a few choices that have not been the best, and that even though he's apologized, although it took a long time to apologize, which did affect how well I accepted that even though he's apologized, he understands why I felt this way, and I've forgiven him.

It doesn't make the pain just disappear.

It doesn't stop the triggers from reappearing.

You can do everything right and the pain is still there.

And that's what I really want him to understand is that I accept that he seize my flaws, he accepts them, that he has acknowledged his own, he's acknowledged the hurt that he's caused for our relationship.

But I also really need him to understand that that doesn't mean the hurt disappears, and that I still need I'm still fragile, I'm still vulnerable, and I still need support and reassurance.

And I just don't get.

That, and I want to give it to her, and it's I don't give her enough, and I understand that, but you also understand why why.

Now you probably see why I can't always do that, but I agree that, like I need to do something on that part.

After this short break, I'm going to assist David and Jess in coming up with some strategies and frameworks they need before they can even begin to dive into issues around cheating and trust stay with us, I think will be useful for us to put some strategies in place.

Let's go to the other part of this, which was the maybe some things that aren't resolved, or I think the big one maybe to start with is the different perceptions about cheating, because I think if we continue to have two different ideas about what happened, then of course, yes, I can see there's been attempts for repair, but it's kind of like a sort of shonky repair work has happened, and so things do slip through the cracks, and then these arguments happen.

So we don't have to get to a place of both agreeing that this happened one way, but we do need to get to some better sort of understanding around it because I think at the moment this like, well you cheated, Well no I didn't.

I think that's kind of destabilizing any further communication between you about these type of topics.

Yeah, so I don't know whether they you know, we can actually talk about the instant so instances that this is stemming from.

Well, probably.

Again, this is an area where I'm I worry at my Yeah, yeah, I just.

Might want to go.

That's okay, Jess can tells it.

Jess feels like she might need to go.

Well, let's trust Jess to let us know and say, guys, I'm starting to feel like throttling him, so I need to step round.

Yeah.

Yeah, Well, so I'm trying to remember the whole story.

But to start with, I want to go back to when and so we met her like more than four years ago now, maybe almost almost five years ago.

And to start with, we were just friends with very good friends.

And so eventually I just realized that when I was in Jesse's arms, I just.

Felt like it was having and I just had this stay there.

So do you recall, Yes, we can plain that text to me or something, so.

That that's what I thought.

Okay, Look, I have to I have to ask her, So I said, can we be together?

I want to be with you.

So yeah, that's how we started.

And I guess from being friends when we started to be together, you know, as lovers, I think Jess ended up having a lot more worries automatically because for we ever passed or something.

So there was a lot of things that came out that I noticed in terms of confidence.

A lot of that was because he didn't bring me into his phone.

I used to be really really fat, and I think he was ashamed of that and he wouldn't like, he didn't introduce me to his friends, he didn't take me out to like, he didn't include me in his social life.

I mean, I feel that it was because of the way that I looked, and that started to create a lot of insecurity because he was really sweet to me when it was just us or us and the kids, but when it was.

It's a difficult.

But I I socially it was well.

I had some comments from people, so I felt also it was probably you know, unfair also on Jess.

But what do you mean by comment?

Yeah, it was people.

I had, you know, some some of the people I know commenting, oh you know, because she was quite big, so they commented I felt that was not right.

How did you manage that?

I felt he should.

Yeah, I was going to ask how did you manage those comments from your friends?

Yeah, no, I felt I was upset with it.

I did say something, you know, I said, it's not you know, what are you saying?

But that was after so when when we were together, nothing happened there.

But later on I heard something from him, So.

Yeah, it was So did that make you feel uncomfortable to bring Jess around your friends?

Jess is internalizing that as because of her weight, but are you saying that it was.

Well, you know, it's it's obviously I feel like, oh, you know, I don't want to put her in that situation again.

So yeah, it didn't come across that way at all.

I came across as I'm ashamed of you.

I care about you, but you know.

I mean it shall Yeah, it's to be honest, it was a bit of an issue for me as well that she was quite big.

And she's done, you know, she's done a lot of work on that, but yeah, it was a bit of an issue for me as well.

And were you open about that with Jess?

Yes, but it was actually quite hurtful for her, so I tried to when I stopped that.

Eventually I actually saw you know, I mean, I I don't want to hurt her, you know, I I I sort of saw it differently, and I guess to be optimistic is a good thing.

You know.

I'm not optimistic.

I'm quite pessimistic by nature, so that doesn't have but I saw it as well.

You know, you have you have more to cattle, and I do like that.

Actually, I really like that.

So you know when I say, when I'm in her arms arms and there's more space there, you know, it's very warm, you know, it's I don't know, it's it's better on that fault.

So in terms of we've got something here.

Okay, so if we look at the beginning of the relationship.

Yes, yes, so yeah, I went sideways.

Yeah, so yes, that's the beginning of the relationship.

But then well, sorry, actually I.

Don't want to stay with it here, Sorry, I do.

I want to stay with this issue because I think, yeah, I think this sort of led into then more insecurity stuff.

So let's stick with this for a moment, because I think what so Jess was saying there is it didn't feel like you were wanting to protect me or yourself from other people's comments.

It felt like you were judging me as well or ashamed of me.

Yeah.

So if this is like the original or initial hurt, and it.

Really hurt because we were really good friends before we started dating, like we loved each other before we were in love with each other, like where you just felt this connection, a really strong connection, and you know, but I just didn't realize until we were together that that was always just at my house or his house, or when we're going out for the day or doing things together.

I didn't realize.

It took me until we were in a relationship to realize that I wasn't around his friends.

There's two things to that though, Because I wasn't, you know, I mean I was, I wouldn't say I was.

I wasn't a shame of you.

I It's it's true that when I heard that guy said that I was, I felt a bit.

And it's not just that I want to protect you.

It's true also I felt, oh god, you know this is that I felt it's going to be difficult to go out or do anything, so that that that's only issue.

But it's for me.

I invited just to my gigs, one gig in particular, and she went there and you know when she saw, well, I was playing.

When I stopped playing during the break, I came towards her, and she didn't want to give me a hug or anything like that.

This is the thing she was invited to.

H or second accompaniment of anywhere, one of the first ones.

And I know that she was worried about seeing an X over there, an ex of.

Mine.

Yeah.

So but yeah, and she's also told me that she didn't like crowds very much.

So when we've been doing something that was a bit so short, it's always been a bit of a there's been an issue, there's been like something happened.

So it's sort of I feel worried about going out with Jess.

Yeah, and just so it's yeah, it's not just it's not just that one thing.

It's several things.

Okay, So okay, So David is saying that there's other things around going to more social things that were potential barriers.

So I mean, Jesse, if you want to speak to that a little bit, Even in terms of the gig that Dave was talking.

About, I don't remember that specific night, but it sounds like something that won't happen.

So for me, I feel that he is ashamed of me, embarrassed of me.

I feel like I'm good enough for him, but not for his public image, and that really hurts, and that makes me feel really insecure.

He doesn't post anything of us on his social media.

He hasn't introduced me to his family.

You know, I don't know many of his friends.

I feel at times like I'm a side peace.

But when it's just the two of us, it's fabulous together.

We have a great time.

We gewl, we laugh, we you know, we both, you know, have the same kind of passion for spontaneity, and we're easily happy just to have a lazy day at home.

And it all just seems to fit in really well.

So when you can buying that, I think the feeling, the overall feeling, is that I'm not really welcome, like he kind of wants me, but he kind of doesn't.

In some ways, I don't feel fully welcome.

If I felt welcome, if I felt safe, if I felt secure in the relationship, then none of that would be as much of an issue for me at all.

And I know I would be able to relax and not be so nervous.

And I think that's why I wanted to stick with this original issue of feeling ashamed of feeling unattractive or not wanted or not accepted in Dave's world, because yes, obviously afterwards there have been these things which I think we will need to go into around the cheating is that, But actually before we go there, I do think this is actually probably what's led into all of the other stuff happening, because I think you're right there, Jess, where if you hadn't felt that he was ashamed of you, And this doesn't mean that you were ashamed of her, but if that's how Jess feels, and it makes complete sense as to why she would feel more insecure about the other things.

I mean, I want to say that I have tried, and it's true, it's there are okay, How can I said?

The main thing for me was the.

Fact that I was worried about having something happened about the reaction, possibly maybe because my ex tails up or something else, and then it will can you tell me a massive argument?

Yeah?

Can you tell me?

Because you've mentioned a couple of times and I've even seen here today that you were worried about how Jess reacts to things.

Can you tell me a bit more?

And this is not to you know, it's not about dubbing each other in for our bad behaviors, you know, but we do need to talk about the behaviors.

And is there things that just does that you find really hard to deal with?

Yeah, So it's interesting because we had a discussion there before yesterday and about one of them, which is now I don't remember it the same way.

So it's interesting.

But from my point of view, so most of the time, if we go up there is something something happens and we'll have an argument and it's it's different, but it's all the ways to do with meeting my friend, one of my friends, or I don't know, me saying the wrong world and then it goes into something else which goes too far.

I just interject and say that, So there's never any issue it it doesn't happen in public.

It's it's not just like one person.

I also don't like confront or anything like that, I'd say, and then we argue about it later.

But that's that's usually what happens.

That's why Okay, so you anticipate problems and then feel like, you know what, it's just easy if we don't go out because I don't want her to get upset, and then we have.

Exactly whereas what I'm thinking is I've run away.

Obviously I wasn't coping.

Why is he not supporting me or saying, hey, are you okay?

You need a hard Can I do anything?

He's not doing that?

Oh, and that's what I need in that moment.

Yeah, I mean, I sort of.

It's difficult if I'm playing though, if I'm organizing, you know, one of the jam sessions or something, because I do that quite often, so I can't always be next to Jess.

But I suggested some places where I could you know, where we do that, because I'd like you to be close to me when I do these things as well.

It'd be good.

So if we were to think about the bottom line here is how Jess doesn't feel a welcomed or solid part of your life.

So, and from what I hear from your side, Dave, is that she is a part of your life and she is welcoming.

In fact, you do you want her to be a solid part in your life?

Yeah, So to do that.

I think what's happening though, is it's whatever you're trying to do is maybe not the things that just needs so if we think about it, I mean, she mentioned a few things there around having not met your family.

I don't know if that's still current their case.

I have you not met your family or certain friends.

My family, it's a bit difficult.

Could it be over FaceTime or a zoom or I mean, I don't know.

Could there be ways to introduce.

Oh, yeah, we've I mean I had my sister and I think I had anyway.

Yeah, maybe I don't speak to my family very often, to be honest, but yeah.

I'm assuming they know about Jessice existence in your life, right well?

Yeah, just for you, what would make you feel more welcome and a part of Dave's life.

I want him to be inviting me to be a part of that, even if I don't go.

I can't always go.

I have a young child, but I want to know that welcome if invited to what anything?

Anything.

Yeah, I'm not saying I expect to be there for everything, because I think it's really important for us to do things separately as well, and for him to have his own friends, because you know, you're different groups of friends sort of feed different parts of your soul at different times, and that's really important because then that soul comes back to me and I get the benefits.

But I just need to know that he's we're walking in there, and he's you know, he's holding my hand, he's with me.

He's not going to leave me alone, and he wants me there and he's not ashamed of me, and that would make me feel better and like him saying, you know, oh, I'm worried about what your reaction is going to be.

I'm wondering, worried about what's going to happen.

I don't you know.

The only thing that's going to happen is I'm going to feel uncomfortable and I'm going to slip out and then send him a text later or something.

But you know that that makes me even more anxious because I'm already thinking, you know, I know that I'm going to stuff up.

I just don't know where it's going to be.

And it's going to make me think about that rather than think about you know, if.

You if you leave a place like that and it's just you leaving and you're SA sorry whatever, it's it's fine, it's just we Usually what happened after that is there's been an argument that.

He takes it personally when I leave.

He doesn't realize it's about men's tall, managing my anxiety and removing myself from a situation where I feel uncomfortable, because if I feel uncomfortable in that situation, other people were going to pick up on that, and it's it's gonna it's going to be awkward for them, and it's not fair to do that to other people that I don't really know.

It's not really fair to do that to him.

So for me, I'm actually making a really smart decision when I leave, because it saves my anxiety from escalating further.

It saves him from being inboard by a girlfriend who's clearly got something going on.

It saves his friends being confused and not knowing what's going on.

So I genuinely feel and I would love to have advice on this because I don't know what else to do, because I genuinely feel I'm actually making a really smart decision at that point to leave while I'm still thinking clearly.

It's sort of tool and it's what I want to make you feel more uncomfortable, and what happened I think if I remember, well now is like then I have to explain to my friends where you left.

So I usually said, well, you know, yah, a kid who needs to I said to.

Him, you can just tell them the truth, to tell them that she gets really anxious or she's not good in social situations and not to take I met one of his friends and she was so lovely and she was so sweet, and I said that to her.

I said, look, I have to be honest, I don't know how long I can stay because I'm really nervous at the moment.

And she was like, oh, don't worry, you know, we're all nervous, blah blah blah.

But the way she said it, it actually felt like, you know, it would be okay and she wouldn't be offended.

And I did say to her, look, you know, please just don't take it personally if you turn around and I'm gone, because that's just me.

I'd love her to meet more exactly for that.

I know it's weird, I.

Know, but it's not weird.

And look, I think my only thought around that.

I mean, number one, I think it's great that you are able to check in with yourself and know where your limits are and if it's not feeling good or you need to step away.

I think that is really important, because you're right.

Sometimes it does further damage to ourself or our partner when we try and push through and we don't listen to what we really need.

There could be a middle ground, though, where you step out for a bit and whether that be something that Dave is a part of, and like, we love that it's with you to try and help yourself sooth so you can come back, like what if you rather than leaving.

And sometimes you might actually just have to leave and that's okay, But there might be other times where it's like I'm definitely not coping right now, but I could be brought back down and be able to come back in, you know.

So there'd be times where maybe you don't have to miss the whole thing and you could step out and that could be something that Dave could support you.

I actually love that.

I think that's great because I'm just listening to him now and I'm realizing I'm not actually thinking about how he's left to handle the situation after I'm gone.

I'm just so proud of myself for getting out when I.

Needed to, Like, I'm out of the fire.

You know, Dave's sitting there.

I think, well, that would help me if when you leave, just could come to me and say, Dave, I'm sorry I have to leave.

You know, but there's not there's no issues.

I just need some space or whatever.

And that would that would really.

Have So do you normally slip out without letting Dave know or without telling this?

I have to be honest.

Sometimes I wait till he goes and gets a drink, and then I'll slip out because I know that I'll have a couple of minutes to get away.

But last time I get that he called me an uber, so that was really sweet of him.

He was really annoyed at me, but he still called me an uber.

I would so.

Maybe we just got to tweak what's happening here a little bit, right.

So do you think, Dave that for you, you would feel more happy and comfortable about Jess coming to social things or gigs with you if you knew that you had a better system where you would trust that if she wasn't feeling.

Okay, there's no I mean an argument after that, it's going to be fine.

Even if she's try girls with a friend doesn't get on, We're going to be all right.

When we come back.

It's time to think about the homework that Jess and David need to work on between sessions back in a tick.

Homework is a big part of couples and family therapy.

As much as some people wish their therapists could move in with them, we can't.

So homework is where people can practice new kinds of communication and different responses and behaviors to break through the barriers and challenges their relationship is facing in real time.

Look, I won't be bombarding you with homework, but you know, I think it's handy to have a couple of little experiments or things to be observing and trying in the week, and then we report back and chat about did that work, did that not work?

What happened there?

So leading us into a bit of that I think could be coming up with a system that you guys both feel happy about in terms of navigating these social situations together.

So, whether that be Jess on your end, coming up with you know, commitments that you're going to make.

I will make sure that I don't leave without telling you I will make sure that if it's a situation that I feel I could use some help with, rather than because you might just need to leave and that's okay.

But if it's that, you know what, I need a break and I might be able to come back in this is how I'll ask you, so really having like sort of formulated like lines or plans of how I would ask you for that.

And then Dave, I think what would be important is for you to go if you ask me to come and help you, you know, whether it's recenter, calm down, just you know, get yourself back together.

But don't say the words calm down.

Oh my god, if you say those like nobody nobody comes down, they come up, you know they yeah, tell them that.

He can't say, okay, So he's saying you can tell me.

If I said that to Jess, it's going to be a different problem.

But for me it's fine.

Jeff can say I feel like I need help calming down, Jess, could you maybe use the word for her own self or even just like I feel like I need a bit of reassurance.

Can you help me do some self soothing in the bathroom or outside, or can we.

You mean I don't have to run away this alternative, yeah.

Because I think it is really sad that you're running away and for the times that you might not have to, and you actually have a partner there that can support you in being there.

It sounds like he does want you there, but he just doesn't know what to do, you know.

I mean it's if I'm playing, I'm an hostage, sure, and I can't be there very much of course, so that's where you need maybe a fan as well or something.

Yeah, but I mean we could even work.

It's not one of your exes.

Not one of the exes, please.

I think let's say, if Dave's on stage and you're feeling overwhelmed, you might decide, Okay, I'm going to head outside and I'll text him so when he finishes his set that he'll see his phone and he can check if I'm still outside, he can come and will do that self soothing and reassuring thing.

If it's been too much and I had to leave by then Okay, it is what it is, you know what I mean.

But there'll be other opportunities where he is available and able, and I guess, Dave, I think it will be important for you to make sure that it's really prioritized, even if I'm chatting with someone, even if whatever.

If Jess needs me for fifteen minutes or ten minutes, I excuse myself.

I go with her because this is how we rebuild the trust that you've got me.

I feel supported absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah, and that's one of the things.

I know.

You know, we had a big argument two days ago, but there's something that I.

Realized as well.

So I'm hoping even though it was maybe a was it was not a good moment, maybe I'm learning something out of it as well.

Yeah.

And I do think arguments are often you know, unpleasant in them, but they can often be very constructive, and sometimes we kind of need to get to that level for the real stuff to actually come out so we can work with what's really happening here.

I feel so too.

I just I feel like I just need to know that if I do need space or I do need to go away, he can't take it personally, and he can't say, you know, you left because of this person and that was humiliating for me or something like that, because actually I didn't.

I left because I wasn't coping.

Yeah, and I need to need it to get out of there, and I need I really really want for him to understand that because it makes it harder for me to go next time if I'm feeling, yeah, uncomfortable, but I can't leave because he's gonna decide that it's all about something that it's actually not about.

Yeah, And if we were to add a little part two, I'm adding onto the homework, but if part one is just you having a look at in what ways, like what will we do for that ten minute?

You know, Like so I will come up and I'll say this if I need you, Dave, and then you come with me, and this is what would help me in that ten minutes?

Can we do this?

Can we do that?

Blah blah?

Okay, I think on Dave's end of things, I would like to see you have a real reflection about what are the things that I can do that can help just feel more welcome in my life?

Is it posting some photos about some Facebook or whatever?

Is it, you know, organizing to have her come on and say hello next time I'm chatting to my family on the phone.

I don't know, but coming up with some things that may seem not that big of a deal to you, but obviously feel like missing for Jess.

Of course, I'd like I mean, i'd like to sort of explain why I know.

The Facebook thing is a bit of an obvious and I'd like to explain that a bit.

It had his extras all over there, even once he was with when we were separated, they were all over Facebook and everything.

But not okay, so well, anyway, it's music related.

What am I?

And I do post a lot of things on Facebook about music and not much about my kids or anything.

Nothing at already about my family, mostly just about the music.

But it's to I tried to put some point a photo of us too, honestly money it wasn't a big thing, but look, I still want to put even there.

We had an argument a couple of days after.

An hour to put it off, to put it down and actually bokes my heart whichever photo I took.

We had a breakup and just ask me to remove all the photos and it was really difficult for me.

So one of the things is before I put the photos.

It's horrible to say, but before I put the photos on Facebook, I want to know that we're secure.

And that's why it's kind of like a bit of an insurance policy though, which doesn't feel because we could circle this around, right, So, yeah, I want to feel that you're not going to break up with me before I put photos of us on social media.

But by you not putting the photos of the two of you on social media destabilizes the security and the validity and publicness of the relationship, which sounds like it's important to just.

Do it.

Does it just reinforces yeah, to me that I'm not really welcome, that he's still a little but ashamed of me and wants to keep me sort of separate from that part of his life.

So I.

Sort of just saying that's the reason.

But yeah, and it's fair enough that that's your reason.

I guess it's just looking at does this reason to get in my way?

If my goal is to have this relationship be a happy and healthy one.

Does my reason for not putting the photo up getting my way of achieving my goal?

And I think it does.

That's sort of the reason why I'm bringing that up is not to put down your reasoning, but just is my reasoning actually a bit counterproductive for me if I want this relationship to be happy and healthy?

Yeah?

No, that's that's fair enough.

And you know, I don't think it means like you've got a blast photos of Jess all over there, all over your page, but just and it could be there might be other things.

And this is why I'm sort of setting this for homework, is more things.

There may be lots of other little ways that you can make Jess also feel just more a part of it, like meeting different friends, different people, you know, being involved in certain things that you do.

And of course that doesn't mean that she has to attend everything you attend, but just having the Do I invite her to stuff?

Or do I just assume she doesn't want to come?

Or do I assume she's busy?

Do I assume she, you know, will get anxious and angry and we'll have to leave.

So I don't bother inviting anymore, Like maybe there are things you could just look at and just check.

Do I make sure that she feels welcome in this area.

Of my life?

Oh?

I mean I try to do that.

Like mostly what I do, you know, apart from work, is music.

So I try to involve her in the music whenever it's possible.

But yeah, yeah, so but I can do more I mean I can, and maybe that will be the homeworkers for you to start listing.

That okay listing, Yeah, yeah, Okay.

Now in terms of I think probably just based on time, we'll probably leave and I think maybe pick up a bit more on the different perspectives about the cheating stuff, because I do think that that is important to get into.

I think just the original feeling ashamed of me stuff I think was the when that sort of came up, I felt like that was actually we need to work there first.

Then we can go to the different perspectives.

And I guess we could have start looking at a couple agreements like what are our We might have certain slight different ways or perceptions of things, but we need to have a couple agreement of what isn't isn't okay behavior wise under all different circumstances, even if we have different perceptions.

So I'm thinking that might be better for us to leave today, but to talk about next time if you feel like would be useful.

I think that would be good because when we had this big discussion the other day to try and work through some of the things, Yeah, we talked a bit about that.

Yeah, so maybe we park it and we you're meaning how to have an argument without it going you know, sideways, that.

Communict done better.

Yes, so we're talking about different ways to communicate about it, but also actually coming to like we could be workshopping agreements between you about what is cheating, what's acceptable, what's not.

Even if we have your own perspective in life of what cheating is.

In this relationship, what cheating is is this, So we're going to have a shared agreement about what cheating is between us.

We can have individual ideas about what cheating is.

We're two different people, we have different perspectives, but in this relationship, if we're together, we need to agree what is and isn't.

Okay, Yeah, yeah, I agree with that.

Yeah yeah, I mean yes, Okay.

Well, I hope that this session went a bit better than the other couple of times that you've tried.

We've made it to the end.

We're still talking.

Look at that, you're still talking.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

I think Justin David came here to to work through some of their communication issues and also to really untangle some more deeply rooted problems between the two of them around perception, trust, agreements about behavior, and even just feeling secure with each other in the relationship.

I think trust issues are a really common problem in couples, and particularly different perceptions about what cheating might be, what is and isn't okay, what's acceptable, And I believe that Jess and David do have two quite different beliefs and perspectives about this, and that has to stabilized a lot of the trust between them.

However, if we don't get to the things underneath that, it's very hard to work on the more touchy issues around cheating and sex and trust.

So I often see couples getting so stuck on the sex and the you know, the high intensity bits of mistrust, but actually there will be something underneath that that has created a bit of tension or lack of stability, which then makes the more higher intensity things set off real big alarm bells for people.

So in David and Jess's case, looking at the fact that Jess feels that David is ashamed of her is actually the beginning of her working through what she needs to to be able to trust him in those more higher alarm bell situations with other women.

I'm feeling really quite positive about the session that we've just had Sarah.

I think is amazing because she's picked up on things that are really big issues, and we might not have realized that there are big issues, and she's allowed us to sort of start to deconstruct them already in a way that's got me thinking more about his perspective and him sort of looking at my perspective with a bit more compassion rather than dismissing me.

I'm just thinking about David, and I feel like right now, he's probably feeling good about the fact that we're still talking to each other and maybe we've got a bit more clarity on each other's point of view.

But I know that he feels a bit worried about the homework, and I suspect he's not sure whether that's achievable or not, and he's probably looking forward because he's a little bit pessimistic.

I mean I am too, but he's probably a little bit worried about what's going to happen if we're not able to do the homework, or if the homework doesn't sort of pan out the way that we're hoping it will.

Yeah, So, how I'm fitting about the session today.

I think it was helpful, Actually, well it was.

It was good because we didn't go too much in detail, so we looked at the important things like communication styles or but we didn't go too much in detail, so I think it avoided potential triggers.

The other thing is what we held our hands together, so that I think it helped as well.

So yeah, just did not did not feel the need to leave or anything like that.

It helped.

And yeah, no, I think it's good also because it's the first session we've managed to do with a bad outcome.

It's not been good in the past.

Basically, So where do I think we will be as a couple next week?

I think we should be okay.

I think we'll be okay.

I mean I'm hoping more than okay, but I think it will help.

But you know, this session today will help.

My hopes for the next session is to see David really come in with some solid ideas.

He may have even implemented one or two things.

I don't know, we'll see, but some solid ideas around how he can make Jess feel like she is a part of his life, that he's proud of her, and that he wants the world to know it.

I'm hoping that Jess is able to come up with a really well articulated plan about what she'll do if she starts feeling uncomfortable at social situations, how she'll communicate that to David, and what he can do to help support her to regulate again so that she doesn't have to feel like she has to isolate every time that she's just regulated.

This Is Why We Fight was created by Naima Brown and Eliza Sorman Neilson.

The executive producer is Naima Brown.

Our studio engineer is Lou Hill.

Sound design and music by Tom Lyon.

Additional production support from Leah Porgus and Coco Levine.

Our casting producer was Lisa Storer.

If this conversation has brought up any hard feelings or if you feel like you need a bit of help, there are links in our show notes to resources available to you right now, as well as how to connect with my practice Motivated Minds.

If you'd like to apply to be on the next season of This is Why We Fight, there's a link to the application in our show notes too.

The second part of Jesson David's session comes out in a few days, but if you don't want to wait, Mamma Mia subscribers have early access to the episode in full right now.

Follow the link in the show notes to listen.

Meet you there.

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