Sarah Mackenzie (00:13): Welcome to the Read-Aloud Revival, I'm Sarah Mackenzie. Around here, we have been focusing a lot on falling back in love with our own reading lives. We talk all the time about how we want to help our kids fall in love with their reading lives, and we do that primarily through reading aloud of course. But there's also something incredibly important about falling in love with our own reading lives and really just reading for the delight of it. Not reading because we're trying to be a better mother, or a better homeschooler, or a better homemaker or whatever it is, but just reading for the sheer delight of it. (00:49): Now, if you don't believe that's one of your primary jobs as a mother, I would encourage you, gently, of course, to go back and listen to the Read-Aloud Revival podcast episode called, Reading for Fun is More Important than You Think, because it is. Reading for fun is more important than you think, and I don't just mean, like I said, reading to make you better at something, but reading just for the sheer pleasure of it. And so if you need to be convinced of that, go back and listen to that episode. (01:17): On today's episode, I want to talk about a certain kind of reading. But before I do, I don't want to forget to remind you that this episode is not just an audio episode, it's also a video. If you are listening and would like to watch it, go to readaloudrevival.com/video, to find it. (01:35): Now, inside RAR Premium, which is our online community that helps you make meaningful and lasting connections with your kids through books, we did an entire retreat about falling in love with your own reading life. Again, reading for pleasure, reading for fun. And one of the sessions we did there was called, How to Read the Classics and Actually Enjoy them, because I think so many of us really want to read the classics, we want to enjoy the classics, we want to understand them, right, and we don't want to feel dumb. We don't want to feel like, when I pick up a hard book or a classic book or an old book, I just feel incompetent, like I can't keep up. Like the internet has ruined my brain, am I the only one who feels that way? I don't think so. (02:16): Joining me was RAR community manager, Kelsey Murphy, and we talked about how to read classics and actually enjoy them. And most of the things we talk about are relevant to reading classics with your kids, but we're actually pretty razor focused on you reading classics just because they will make your life richer and better and you'll be happier for doing it. I cannot wait to share this session with you. Now, the retreat came with a retreat guide, and inside that retreat guide was a list of classics that we think are really great to start with, especially if you're not in the habit of reading classics, or you just want to get into the habit of reading classics. (02:56): And so we have pulled that list for you, and you can download it now by going to the show notes, at readaloudrevival.com/264. Or you can just text the word, "classics," to the number, 33777, and either way you'll get that list. It's just a list of classics that our team thinks are pretty great classics to dip into next, depending, some of them are longer, some of them are shorter, some of them are easier, some of them are harder, but we think all of them are a pretty good pick. So again, readaloudrevival.com/264, or just text the word, "classics," to the number, 33777. Okay, I hope you enjoy this session and I hope you fall in love with your reading life. (03:49): So let's talk about classics. Should we read classics? I mean, yes, of course we should read classics, right? Do we need to read all of the classics? Definitely, no. C.S. Lewis, though, he has this thing that he said at one point or another, I don't know in what essay or book. He said that for every new book that you read, you should also read an old one. I think that might be taking it a bit far, as C.S. Lewis does sometimes, just saying. But I don't think you absolutely have to read an old one for every single new book that you read. But I like the gist of it, because it reminds me of something that Alan Jacobs said. (04:27): Alan Jacobs is a professor of English at Baylor University, and he has written several books I just love, and one of his books is called, Breaking Bread with the Dead, and it is a book on reading old books. And in that book he talks about this idea of personal density, I love this phrase so much. He basically says that the bigger you can make your now, the less likely you are to get blown by the winds of whatever's happening in our culture or in our world. So he talks about how whenever you read an old book, you extend your now, you're extending your present, your experience, your reality into the past. So when you're reading an old book, you're learning about different cultures and time periods, and you're actually stepping into that time period for a bit of time. (05:18): Not just that you're learning new facts, but you're actually becoming a denser person because your now as extending beyond February 1st, 2025. What's going on in our political climate and social climate and in our neighborhoods and at church this weekend and at the homeschool co-op and whatever happened when your mom called you on the phone and told you something that surprised you. Like all of those things, you get to reach beyond that, you basically enhance your personal density. And he talks about how that adds weight and makes it less likely that you can be blown by the wind. (05:49): There's this great quote I'm trying to find. This is what he says, "By reading and considering the past, we cut through the thick, strong vines that bind our attention to the things of the moment, and our attention thereby becomes more free." So good. I find that when I'm in the habit of reading classics and old books, at least interspersed with new books, I am less likely to get frazzled by things I see in the news or happening in the now, because my now has indeed become bigger. And that's what he's talking about with that. Kelsey Murphy (06:24): I love that, and I mean, I think there's a reason why we're drawn to classics. Leilani, on our team, has this great phrase that I love, she says, "Classics are part of our literary inheritance." I love that so much, because we get to partake in, like what you were saying, these worlds that came before us. We get to expand our minds by just reading a book and understanding culture before ours and time before ours. And there's something to be said about reading books outside of our current cultural context, as you mentioned. Sarah Mackenzie (07:04): Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (07:05): I have another Alan Jacobs quote, "When you read an old book, you want to look for something that has thoughts that are not your thoughts, that has assumptions that are not your assumptions, that sees the world very differently than you see the world, because those are the words that are going to teach us. They really teach us through difference more than they teach us through similarity. Don't worry about being systematic, don't worry about having a plan. What really matters, is not having a plan, but having a disposition. The disposition is to be taught, the disposition is to grow in virtue and wisdom, the disposition to be delighted." (07:42): I think that's such an important- Sarah Mackenzie (07:43): I love that so much. Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (07:44): Yes, it's such a good distinction. Just have an open mind, be ready and willing to learn. You don't have to plan out every single classic that you're going to read. It's not about reading as many as you can. It's just about reading them and enjoying them and learning from them. Sarah Mackenzie (08:01): Yeah. And that disposition, I love that. What really matters is not having a plan, but having a disposition, the disposition to be taught, to grow in virtue and wisdom, to be delighted. It feels to me more like an invitation, it actually feels to me very similar to what we talk about when we're talking about homeschooling, and we talk about the difference between covering and uncovering. Kelsey Murphy (08:22): Yes. Sarah Mackenzie (08:23): Because if you read a classic and you feel like I have to get everything, I have to squeeze all the juice from this, I have to read it just right, not miss anything, it's going to feel like you're trying to cover Don Quixote, or The Count of Monte Cristo, or- Kelsey Murphy (08:37): Right. Sarah Mackenzie (08:38): Pride and Prejudice. But if instead you're like, "I wonder what I'll be delighted by here? I wonder how I might-" Kelsey Murphy (08:43): Yes. Sarah Mackenzie (08:43): "Grow in virtue or wisdom?" I also think it's an invitation to read things, that you don't then feel stressed when you don't really agree with it. Because then when you read something that you're like, even in Breaking Bread with the Dead, I love this book, there are several parts I remember, I should have grabbed it off my shelf, I think it's in the other room. Where I am disagreeing with him in the margins, like you can see me being like, "That's not true," or, "I would take issue with this," or like there's a Bible verse that I'm like, "I don't know if this scripture would match this." You could- Kelsey Murphy (09:12): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (09:13): I'm disagreeing with him, but it doesn't mean now the whole book has to go out, because now I'm coming to the book- Kelsey Murphy (09:17): No. Sarah Mackenzie (09:18): And it's not a classic, but I'm coming to the book with this idea of like, I wonder what I could learn here? It doesn't mean I have to take everything. So it expands- Kelsey Murphy (09:25): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (09:25): Our reading so much. Kelsey Murphy (09:27): Yes, for sure, for sure. And I think, again, I get sucked into that English class habit of, you read a classic and you really dissect it and try to take- Sarah Mackenzie (09:38): Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (09:38): Everything out of it. And I've had to get out of that habit of, you don't have to torture yourself with a classic- Sarah Mackenzie (09:46): Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (09:47): Just because you feel like you should read them, because it is deemed a classic, you have to read it. No, just read it and enjoy it for what it is. Sarah Mackenzie (09:56): Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (09:56): And also, I think sometimes, maybe the season of your life is just not primed to read a classic. That has happened to me before. I had this thought after I had my second baby, that I wanted to get back into the habit of reading consistently, and I had never read Jane Austen at that point. And so I checked out Pride and Prejudice from the library, I was so excited to read it. And I could not make it past the first like five pages, I'm not even kidding. My postpartum mind, with a newborn and a toddler, was not ready for Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice, at that time at all. And there's again, another Alan Jacobs quote that I love, he says, "Sometimes a book that might not be for you at some stage in your life will be for you at another stage-" Sarah Mackenzie (10:58): Oh, so true- Kelsey Murphy (10:58): "In your life." Sarah Mackenzie (10:58): Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (10:58): And so I put Pride and Prejudice back at that stage. And honestly, I didn't read it until last year, because I kept having babies and kept being in this postpartum state- Sarah Mackenzie (11:09): Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (11:09): Where I just knew my mind was not ready. Finally, I was able to read it last year and enjoy it without feeling like my brain was melting. Sarah Mackenzie (11:20): Yeah, so good. As we were talking about reading and not taking everything that... The person reads just at face value, like you can disagree with things. Somebody wrote in here, "It's like the chew and spit method." I love that. It reminds me of that Sir Francis Bacon quote. There's a Sir Francis Bacon quote that says, "Some books are meant to be tasted, some are meant to be chewed and digested." I'm ruining it, there's- Kelsey Murphy (11:43): Oh, yes. Sarah Mackenzie (11:44): Yeah. "But some maybe are meant to be chewed and spit in some ways." Kelsey Murphy (11:48): Yes. Sarah Mackenzie (11:48): At least parts of. Kelsey Murphy (11:48): Yes. Sarah Mackenzie (11:51): Here's a really good question from Jessica, she's saying, "I may be jumping the gun here, but could you explain what makes a classic?" We should probably start there, that's a great- Kelsey Murphy (11:58): Oh. Sarah Mackenzie (11:59): That's a great question. Kelsey Murphy (12:00): Sure, yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (12:01): I mean, I think there's probably a lot of different ways people define this, so maybe we just talk about how we think of classics. In my mind, a classic is a book that has stood the test of time- Kelsey Murphy (12:13): Yes. Sarah Mackenzie (12:13): Or has the potential to. Although, I usually think we don't think of classics until they have stood the test of time for a while. Kelsey Murphy (12:18): Right. Sarah Mackenzie (12:19): So then if it's standing the test of time, it has to have some universal truth in it. Like it has to have some kind of... It can be set in a time and place, in fact, all stories are set in a time and place. But have enough universal truth that it can transcend its plot to speak to us- Kelsey Murphy (12:36): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (12:37): In some deeper way. Kelsey Murphy (12:39): My favorite example of this I think is, Little Women, because there are just universal truths in there about growing up, about having siblings and parents and just complicated relationships. And I remember when I first read Little Women, I really resonated with Jo, the free spirit. Sarah Mackenzie (13:04): Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (13:04): And was going to do what she wanted to do and nothing was going to stop her or get in her way. And then as I read it later in my life, as a wife and a mom, I found my life actually turned out a lot more like Meg's did. I got married and had kids, and that was my life. And I really resonated more with Marmee at that time too, as a mom. And so I think to me that's what a classic is. You can relate to it at different points in your life, and it still stands true. Maybe it hits a little bit different, but- Sarah Mackenzie (13:42): Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (13:42): There's still truths there. Sarah Mackenzie (13:44): Which actually speaks to its re-readability too, because you're talking about reading it once when you're younger and resonating with Jo and then reading it again now and resonating with Marmee. A classic can also always be, I think, read and reread and reread, and it meets you somewhere new every time, hits you a little bit differently. And at like, you're a different person when you come to it, so Kelsey Murphy (14:08): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (14:08): I mean, I often think of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe when I think of this, because I can read that book and still see things that I've not seen before, even though I've read it, I don't even know how many times. I think also, technically, I mean if we were technically speaking of classics, it may need to have some kind of a cultural impact or it's had enough of an impact that people are reprinting and remaking the book over and over to keep it in print. Kelsey Murphy (14:31): Yes. Right. It hasn't gone out of print, yes. Sarah Mackenzie (14:35): Yeah. I think, for a lot of us, we have a little bit of reader's guilt, that we haven't read the classics we think we should have. Kelsey Murphy (14:42): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (14:43): Like you said you hadn't read Pride and Prejudice until last year, right? That was what you did? Kelsey Murphy (14:46): Last year, yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (14:48): Yeah. I didn't read it until I was in my thirties and I read it in Read-Aloud Revival Premium, when we did them all in the book club. I'd picked it for- Kelsey Murphy (14:52): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (14:53): For book club so that I would read it. Because Ken Ludwig got me so excited about it when he came to talk about Shakespeare, he's also a scholar of Jane Austen. And I just think, I don't know, Ken Ludwig can get me excited about anything the way he taught. Like he's one of those people that's so- Kelsey Murphy (15:09): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (15:09): Excited about the things he knows, that- Kelsey Murphy (15:11): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (15:12): You're like, "I want to know." So I- Kelsey Murphy (15:12): He hypes you out. Sarah Mackenzie (15:14): Yeah, yeah. But as a kid, I didn't read any classics, zero. I mean nothing. I didn't read Little House on the Prairie, I didn't read The Wind in the Willows, I didn't read- Kelsey Murphy (15:24): No. Sarah Mackenzie (15:24): The only thing that could be deemed a classic, I think that I read as a kid, was Charlotte's Web. I think that's it. All the rest I read as an adult and I read, instead, as a child, stacks upon stacks upon stacks of the Babysitter's Club. Kelsey Murphy (15:40): Yeah. You and I have that in common. Sarah Mackenzie (15:43): Yes. Sweet Valley High. Kelsey Murphy (15:45): Yeah, loved it. Nancy Drew. Sarah Mackenzie (15:48): Yes. Kelsey Murphy (15:49): Yeah. I was all for it. Sarah Mackenzie (15:51): Yes, yes. And I think, in some ways, then I come to a classic as an adult and I feel inequipped, like ill-equipped, inequipped, what's the word? Ill-equipped. Kelsey Murphy (15:57): Ill-equipped. Sarah Mackenzie (15:59): I feel like I don't know how to read this, I need somebody to show me how to read it. Kelsey Murphy (16:03): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (16:04): Even though, it's helpful to remember sometimes, that the classics were written first as just stories. It's not like Louisa May Alcott was like, "I'm going to write a classic," she was just writing a story. Kelsey Murphy (16:17): Right. Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (16:17): That she wanted her readers to enjoy, because that's what writers do. They're not usually writing to make the next Warren piece. So I feel like if we can approach it also just as like a story, in some ways, that takes the bar down. 'Cause I'm like, "Oh yeah, Jane Austen wouldn't want people to keep from reading Pride and Prejudice, because they felt like they were going to miss important themes." Of course, that's what makes it a classic, that you could read it eight times and find more themes- Kelsey Murphy (16:43): Right. Sarah Mackenzie (16:44): Or more things in it to speak to you. Kelsey Murphy (16:47): Yes. I was laughing as Lauren commented, "Babysitter's Club are classics in their own way." Sarah Mackenzie (16:54): Again, this is true. Kelsey Murphy (16:55): I agree. Sarah Mackenzie (16:57): This is true, and- Kelsey Murphy (16:58): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (16:58): The different kind. Kelsey Murphy (16:59): I do think of them very fondly even though- Sarah Mackenzie (17:02): Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (17:03): They're not classics. Sarah Mackenzie (17:04): Well, because I think they play an important part- Kelsey Murphy (17:05): They made me love reading. Sarah Mackenzie (17:06): In our development as becoming avid readers and seeing ourselves- Kelsey Murphy (17:10): Yeah, totally. Sarah Mackenzie (17:11): As voracious readers. It's why, like with our kids, I'm oftentimes saying, don't worry if they want to read that whole Cupcake Diaries or the whole Magic Tree House- Kelsey Murphy (17:19): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (17:19): Or whatever. Like there's something very satisfying about reading books and seeing them stack up, and you're like- Kelsey Murphy (17:25): Yes. Sarah Mackenzie (17:26): Finishing all these books. And it helps you- Kelsey Murphy (17:28): Especially in a big series like that too. Sarah Mackenzie (17:30): Yes. Kelsey Murphy (17:31): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (17:31): It also takes the pressure off you always having to find new books- Kelsey Murphy (17:35): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (17:36): For your kids. But they develop such an identity and a habit, a person who reads, that I think they actually really do play a very important role. They're just different than classics, but it's not like we need to think of it as not useful. It was useful in a different way. Kelsey Murphy (17:51): Right. Yes, it was, and I think that was your point too, is that we, ourselves, have this weird guilt over like, "Well, I only read Babysitter's Club, I didn't read classics. Is it too late? Have I missed that?" It's very strange, but I have felt that way too, of like, "Well, I haven't read Jane Austen yet, so maybe I just never will." Sarah Mackenzie (18:14): Yeah, yeah. Or you've read a classic and you didn't like it and you think, "Well, I guess I don't like classics," even though you just didn't like that particular classic. Kelsey Murphy (18:23): Right. Yes. Sarah Mackenzie (18:24): It happens a lot of times. That happens to me a lot of times. I'll read one and be like, "Yeah, I'm not, I don't know." A lot of times I'll think, "This book has stood the test of time, I'm sure it's me." I'm also okay with that, I'll read something else. Kelsey Murphy (18:37): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (18:38): Pick a different classic. It doesn't mean that all classics are. Kelsey Murphy (18:41): Right. I firmly believe that not all classics are created equal, just because the powers that be, have deemed a certain book a classic- Sarah Mackenzie (18:51): Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (18:51): Doesn't mean that you have to love it or that it's worth reading. I cannot get into John Steinbeck. I can't, it's too depressing. I know that's kind of the point and that's the time period he wrote about, is a Great Depression. But I can't, I've tried. And it doesn't mean that he's a bad writer or that I'm not smart enough to understand it, I just don't like it. And so I'm not going to, again, I'm not going to torture myself by reading it just because I feel like, well, this is culturally important, I should read it. Sarah Mackenzie (19:30): Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (19:30): Pass. Sarah Mackenzie (19:31): Definitely. I mean, you and I have talked about this before, like with those books that tend to be assigned to high schoolers. Kelsey Murphy (19:35): Oh, gosh, yes. I've read some terrible classics in public high school. I think in one year I read, this was a signed reading, 1984, Brave New World, and Lord of the Flies, all in one year, coupled with some really dark short stories and essays. It was a really, just depressing year of literature for high school. Sarah Mackenzie (20:05): Why we do this to young people I will never understand. Kelsey Murphy (20:08): Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Like these dark themes for young adolescents and these existential crises, I am not a fan. Sarah Mackenzie (20:23): There's a great question in the Q&A from Helen, about where to get started with classics, especially because there's an overwhelming number of choices. And also- Kelsey Murphy (20:29): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (20:30): I think because we hear things like what you just said, and if we don't know the classics, we'll go like, "Oh, 1984, Brave New World, and Lord of the Flies, like I wouldn't have known those were all super dark and depressing." That's also fine. One of the things that can be helpful, is looking at, a lot of times I'll, I know we've talked about this before, Kelsey, like look at homeschool curriculum online, just see what they're assigning homeschooled high schoolers to read. Kelsey Murphy (20:57): Yes. Sarah Mackenzie (20:57): That can be a really good starting place, because that tends to look very different than what the public schools are assigning their high schoolers to read. Kelsey Murphy (21:03): Yes, yes, it does. Sarah Mackenzie (21:03): Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (21:06): Oh, you had that experience, 'cause didn't you start Brave New World with one of your kids and then switch to- Sarah Mackenzie (21:12): Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (21:13): The Screwtape Letters? Sarah Mackenzie (21:14): Yeah, we couldn't, I just couldn't. And I was reading it with my seventeen-year-old son and I had no idea, I had never read the book, I had no idea it what was in it. Kelsey Murphy (21:21): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (21:22): You guys, it was so like, at one point we were listening to the audiobook and I told my seventeen-year-old, said, "I can't make eye contact." No, he sent it to me, "I can't make eye contact with you." And I was like, "Yeah, same." And then around, I don't even know how many days we had listened to it, not that far, and we were like, "Do you want to just read a summary? Let's just read a summary." So we just read a summary of it and then we switched- Kelsey Murphy (21:41): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (21:41): To the Screwtape letters, which was much better experience. Kelsey Murphy (21:44): Yes, yes, yes. Sarah Mackenzie (21:49): Let's talk about some tips for reading classics. And one of the tips, some of you're going to be scandalized by this, I am sure, but is to watch the movie first. This can be like a really- Kelsey Murphy (22:03): It's allowed. Sarah Mackenzie (22:04): Great, I know, like yeah, seriously, you will not lose your homeschool mama card. I know that was something that came up in the chat a second ago. Kelsey Murphy (22:10): Oh God. Sarah Mackenzie (22:13): It does seem like heresy. You won't lose your mama homeschool card, it's like the same as a homeschooler saying that they don't like Princess Bride. I always think- Kelsey Murphy (22:24): Oh God. Sarah Mackenzie (22:24): Like you're not allowed to say that in homeschooling circles. I love the Princess Bride, but I mean, I'm sure there are homeschoolers who don't, but none of us will ever know, 'cause none of them are brave enough to say it out loud. And so, same idea. (22:35): You can watch the movie first, because a lot of times, well, something that's helpful to know about our brains as readers, is the first time we read a story, we're reading it for plot. Our brain is wired to want to know what happens next, "But what happens next? And then what happens next?" Which is why oftentimes, when you reread a book, you actually see all kinds of things you missed on the first read, especially related to the beauty of the language itself. Because your brain was not really concerned about the beauty of the language, it just wanted to know what happened. (23:05): And so, a lot of times what will happen with a classic is, especially if it's in older language, that's a little bit not what you're used to reading, which is, it's not what most of us are used to reading most of the time. There's nothing wrong with your brain, you just need to warm it up a little bit. And it is- Kelsey Murphy (23:20): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (23:21): Helpful to, yeah, let your brain have the answer to what happens next, so that you don't get stuck trying to answer that question while you're also trying to understand what the language is saying. Kelsey Murphy (23:31): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (23:31): So when I read a Jane Austen novel, I always, 100% of the time, watch a movie version of it first. And I find that I enjoy the book so much more, I see all kinds of things I would've missed if I was just trying to figure out, "Who was that character?" I mean, when it comes to like Dickens, Shakespeare and Austin, "Who is that character?" is the question that you'll ask more than any other. Like what the heck? Kelsey Murphy (23:54): Yes. Sarah Mackenzie (23:55): Where did this person come in? And so- Kelsey Murphy (23:56): Yes. Sarah Mackenzie (23:57): It's so helpful when you have a visual image for that. Kelsey Murphy (24:00): I have to look up like a character list. Especially because they refer to them, sometimes by their first name, sometimes by their last name, and then they'll switch and I'll be like, "Wait, what first name went with what last name? I don't remember. And who is related to who and how? I don't know." Sarah Mackenzie (24:18): Exactly. Well, when I teach Shakespeare to my kids and then at co-op, I run the Shakespeare program there, and whenever I'm teaching a new play, I always draw a character map on the whiteboard. And I do it every single week. So last semester we did Romeo and Juliet, and every single week I'd be like, "Okay, who remembers?" And I would draw a stick figure, I'm not an artist, you guys, they're stick figures and I would just name them. But putting them in a map of like, these people are Montagues and these people are Capulets. Kelsey Murphy (24:46): Yes. Sarah Mackenzie (24:47): It makes such a huge difference. And then, as we're reading the play, a lot of times as characters are speaking, I'll be pointing to the map, showing them like, it's this person, it's this person. Kelsey Murphy (24:57): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (24:58): And I don't have to do that with a novel, a historical fiction novel, or a contemporary novel, or a new novel, unless there's a bazillion characters. But definitely, when you're dealing with language or story, structures that are more complicated than something that was published in 2024, it can be really helpful. It can give you some scaffolding, I guess, to make it- Kelsey Murphy (25:18): Yes. Sarah Mackenzie (25:18): A more successful experience. Kelsey Murphy (25:20): It's just such a good visual. Sarah Mackenzie (25:22): In the chat, I see. That reminds me of the character maps at the start of American Girl doll books. I always loved those as a child. Yes, totally. Kelsey Murphy (25:29): I loved those too. Sarah Mackenzie (25:31): Yeah, yeah. And you refer to them, right? When you get deeper in the book and you're like, "Wait, who is that again?" And then you flip back- Kelsey Murphy (25:37): Yes. Sarah Mackenzie (25:37): And see who it was, yeah. Kelsey Murphy (25:39): Very helpful. Sarah Mackenzie (25:41): Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (25:41): I think another right way to kind of ease into classics, you don't have to start with a Tolstoy right away. Sarah Mackenzie (25:52): Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (25:52): Start with more of a middle grade. Sarah Mackenzie (25:55): Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (25:55): When I shared I couldn't read Pride and Prejudice with my postpartum brain, and so I read Little Women instead, and it was a much easier entry point. It was much gentler. Sarah Mackenzie (26:08): What are some more tips? I think I saw someone up here, said, they always listen to classics on audio. I think that's a great- Kelsey Murphy (26:14): Oh. Sarah Mackenzie (26:15): Great plan. Kelsey Murphy (26:16): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (26:16): I oftentimes listen to audio or books on audio, classics especially. Like if I'm going to read a classic with my kids, there's a very good chance we'll listen on audio. There's something about letting the narrator do some of that interpretation of the complicated language for you, that can be really helpful. Kelsey Murphy (26:34): Yeah. Yes, definitely. Sometimes it's hard to know in a classic, was this said sarcastically? Sarah Mackenzie (26:42): Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (26:43): Was this- Sarah Mackenzie (26:43): Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (26:44): Yeah. Especially in something like Jane Austen. Sarah Mackenzie (26:47): Exactly. Kelsey Murphy (26:47): You'll need to know that- Sarah Mackenzie (26:48): I was going to say that, yes. Kelsey Murphy (26:49): That humor, that British humor and the time period humor, it's helpful to have someone sort that out to get... Then the banter is more enjoyable if you know what's going on. Sarah Mackenzie (27:03): Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (27:04): Another thing I like to do before reading a classic, is look up a quick plot summary, which, again- Sarah Mackenzie (27:11): Again, heresy. Kelsey Murphy (27:12): I know, it feels so crazy, right? But, for the most part, because it's a classic, I pretty much have a general idea of the plot anyway, and I'm not looking for spoilers, I'm just wanting to know themes. So I did this with Anna Karenina, looked up kind of just a quick plot summary and the themes. And just decided this is not a good fit for me. Sarah Mackenzie (27:40): Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (27:40): Just based on what the themes are. Sarah Mackenzie (27:43): Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (27:43): And again, I don't worry about the ending or spoilers or anything, I'm just trying to gather information to see if it's going to be worth my time to read. Sarah Mackenzie (27:52): Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (27:53): And nothing against Anna Karenina, I know people love it, but at the time, it just wasn't- Sarah Mackenzie (27:58): It's also a huge time commitment if you're like, I could read David Copperfield or Anna Karenina, which one- Kelsey Murphy (28:04): Right. Sarah Mackenzie (28:04): Yeah. Then you can- Kelsey Murphy (28:05): Right, yes. Sarah Mackenzie (28:06): Read some summaries and kind of get an idea. Kelsey Murphy (28:07): Right. Sarah Mackenzie (28:09): Something else that's not cheating, aside from just looking at plot summaries or watching the movie first, is reading abridged versions. And this gets- Kelsey Murphy (28:16): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (28:16): A lot of flak in homeschooling circles, but I want to give a shout-out to abridged versions. Abridged versions are not complete classics, they're usually simplified language so that people who are younger can read them. So for example, Alison, my now 21-year-old, when she was about nine, I would guess, she read Heidi. But she wasn't really ready at that age to read, like her reading development wasn't sophisticated enough to read the actual book, Heidi, by Johanna Spyri. So she read one of those classic start versions and she loved it. It like- Kelsey Murphy (28:51): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (28:51): Made her obsessed with Heidi, so much so that after she finished it, she asked me to get her the real version of Heidi and she read it. Kelsey Murphy (28:58): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (28:58): And I really don't think she would've wanted to stick with it if she hadn't had that abridged version first. So kind of like reading a plot summary- Kelsey Murphy (29:06): Right. Sarah Mackenzie (29:06): Where she was like, "Oh, actually I really do want to struggle through the hard parts-" Kelsey Murphy (29:10): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (29:11): "Because I want this story so much." Kelsey Murphy (29:12): And you mentioned- Sarah Mackenzie (29:13): I always teach Shakespeare with abridged versions, with retellings first. Kelsey Murphy (29:17): Oh yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (29:17): A hundred percent of the time, yeah. Kelsey Murphy (29:18): Yes. And you've mentioned scaffolding- Sarah Mackenzie (29:21): Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (29:22): And it gives kids scaffolding and there's so many wonderful illustrated children's versions. Like you said, it kind of plants the seed so that they're ready for the bigger version. Sarah Mackenzie (29:34): I mean, it's very similar. It's the same kind of idea as like watching the movie first. You're basically watching an abridged visual version- Kelsey Murphy (29:41): Yeah, yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (29:42): Of Little Women, when you watch the Greta Gerwig Little Women. Kelsey Murphy (29:45): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (29:46): But I bet it will not impair your enjoyment of the book, Little Women. And you'll see more there- Kelsey Murphy (29:51): No. Sarah Mackenzie (29:51): Because there's always more in the book than there can be in an abridged version or a movie. Kelsey Murphy (29:55): Yes. I love the movie. I love both the movies, the nineties one and the new one. Sarah Mackenzie (30:02): Oh, me too. Kelsey Murphy (30:02): And the book. Sarah Mackenzie (30:03): I take, a Little Women in any form, basically. Kelsey Murphy (30:04): In any form, is great. Sarah Mackenzie (30:06): Yeah, it's true. Kelsey Murphy (30:07): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (30:07): It's true. Kelsey Murphy (30:07): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (30:09): Kelsey Smith said, it is basically building a love for the specific story. Kelsey Murphy (30:13): Yes. [inaudible 00:30:14]. Sarah Mackenzie (30:14): So then you want more of it, yeah. I think in the chat, I saw people commenting about some really excellent podcasts that talk about classic books. There's, A Literary Life, there's another one, something about an elephant, that I can't ever remember. Close Reads is another one, excellent. Kelsey Murphy (30:29): How to Eat An Elephant. Sarah Mackenzie (30:31): How to Eat An Elephant, yeah. It's such a great name for a podcast, 'cause of course, it's one bite at a time, which is exactly how you should read a classic, right. I love it. I've not listened to that one, so I don't have any experience with it. But if you are going to read, let's say, Middlemarch or something, and you can find a podcast where they are talking about it, I mean, this is what I do when I'm teaching Shakespeare in my co-op. There's a podcast put out by CiRCE Institute, called The Play's the Thing, and on that one, they take a play like Much Ado about Nothing, that's what I'm doing with the middle schoolers there this semester. And they break it up into five episodes and they talk about each act, and I always listen to it, 'cause they always point out things that I missed or didn't see. It's just helpful for me to hear someone else talking about it, so- Kelsey Murphy (31:15): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (31:16): Looking up on, in a podcast app, like seeing, is anybody talking about Middlemarch? Is anybody talking about Anna Karenina if I'm going to be reading it, or David Copperfield or Great Expectations or whatever? Has someone talked about it that I could listen to them and they might be able to point out things that I didn't see. Again, not feeling like you need to squeeze all the juice from it, but more like you're beach combing on a beach and you're with somebody who knows how to look for sea glass. And that's kind of fun, it's like, to be listening to someone who's got an ear or an eye for it or has read it a few times and might see things that you missed before. (31:48): There's a great question in the chat from Kayla, "What classics do you reread the most?" Kelsey, are there classics that you reread the most? Kelsey Murphy (31:58): I think it would have to be Little Women. Sarah Mackenzie (32:00): Okay, yes. Kelsey Murphy (32:01): Yeah, yeah. Like I said, just because I relate to different characters depending on where I'm at in my life. Sarah Mackenzie (32:07): Yeah. Narnia, someone put Narnia in the chat, same. Like- Kelsey Murphy (32:09): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (32:10): Because every once in a while I'm like, we need to reread that one as a family. Anne of Green Gables. Kelsey Murphy (32:14): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (32:15): Any books by Lucy Maud Montgomery. I mean, the Screwtape Letters is probably the single book I've read more than any other, I think. Kelsey Murphy (32:23): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (32:23): I'm not sure what that says about me, that I like to read a demon's perspective over and over and over again, but we won't get into that. (32:31): What else? Oh, the Hobbit. Kayla's loving The Hobbit. (32:35): I, do I admit it? I do. I've not read The Lord of the Rings trilogy, but I loved The Hobbit when we did it as a family book club here a couple of years ago. And I read it and then we listened to it as an audiobook as a family, and then we started it again and listened to the entire thing again, and it was amazing. It was one of our best Read-Aloud experiences. Kelsey Murphy (32:57): It's really [inaudible 00:32:58]. Sarah Mackenzie (32:58): I haven't even watched the movies, Adrienne. I know, it's so terrible. Maybe I should start with the movies, maybe I should take my own- Kelsey Murphy (33:04): I don't know. Sarah Mackenzie (33:05): You know. I'm scandalizing everyone. See, this is worse than the Princess Bride, isn't it? Kelsey Murphy (33:09): Oh gosh. Sarah Mackenzie (33:10): I don't know. Kelsey Murphy (33:11): I haven't read them either, fantasy is not my thing. And I have watched the movies and I just felt like I didn't know what was happening. Sarah Mackenzie (33:20): I mean, okay. Kelsey Murphy (33:21): Sorry guys. Sarah Mackenzie (33:24): My kids are watching Star Wars for the first time, I can't even stay awake. You guys, I cannot stay awake. Kelsey Murphy (33:29): Oh, no, thank you. Sarah Mackenzie (33:31): I just don't understand. And as we were watching one over Christmas break and I looked at Adrienne, I was like, I just don't understand how these have become such cultural centerpieces. It does not make sense to me. Kelsey Murphy (33:43): I don't get it. My boys all love them, and I'm like, I don't even... They have to explain to me what's going on, I can't follow. Sarah Mackenzie (33:51): Oh, I love this, "Sarah, Lord of the Rings is not Star Wars." Okay, yes, I do know that. I'm so sorry. I'm not even like [inaudible 00:34:00], I need to stop. I'm going to put my foot in my mouth now, so I'll just stop at the Lord of the Rings here. (34:08): Oh my goodness. (34:09): Okay. There was another one. Kelsey Murphy (34:11): Maybe one day. Sarah Mackenzie (34:12): What about classics that are good to start with and read aloud as a family? What comes to mind for you first, Kelsey, as far as ones to read aloud as a family? Kelsey Murphy (34:20): The first classic we ever read aloud, actually, one of our very first read aloud ever was Charlotte's Web. Sarah Mackenzie (34:25): Yes. Okay, that's absolutely- Kelsey Murphy (34:28): Yeah, yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (34:29): Yeah, totally. Kelsey Murphy (34:30): That's a great one to start with. Sarah Mackenzie (34:32): Charlotte's Web, The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. Kelsey Murphy (34:34): Yes. That was, I think, our second one. Sarah Mackenzie (34:36): Okay. That makes sense. Kelsey Murphy (34:38): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (34:39): Okay, so just so you all are clear that Kelsey and I do not represent the entire Read-Aloud Revival team. The team is throwing a fit over here in our little team. Kelsey Murphy (34:47): Yes. Sarah Mackenzie (34:47): That we do not have a fantasy fan represented on screen for defense. So you defend Lord of the Rings. You're welcome Leilani, I had to shout you all out. Yes, I know, and Star Wars. Kelsey Murphy (35:03): Too funny. Sarah Mackenzie (35:04): That is too funny. Kelsey Murphy (35:05): Oh, Winnie-the-Pooh, that's also a good one. Sarah Mackenzie (35:08): Oh, yes. Kelsey Murphy (35:09): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (35:09): Winnie-the-Pooh is a surprising one, because if you haven't read it in a while, the actual Winnie-the-Pooh, by A.A. Milne. I mean, as opposed to the Disney Series, which I also really love, just saying, but the books themselves have so much subtle humor that you totally missed when you were a kid. So if you read them again, you'll really enjoy them in a different way. Kelsey Murphy (35:30): Yes. That like dry sense of humor, I love it. Sarah Mackenzie (35:35): Cici said, "Sometimes I feel guilty spending too much money on buying books, but it doesn't stop me sometimes." Kelsey Murphy (35:41): Great. Sarah Mackenzie (35:42): "I get library books sometimes, but I often just prefer owning a book, any thoughts?" I know I hear people every once in a while saying they're not going to buy any more books until they read all the books on their shelves. Kelsey Murphy (35:53): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (35:53): I'm like, "Why?" Like- Kelsey Murphy (35:54): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (35:55): I don't know, do you feel like you have to eat all the food in your pantry before you go grocery shopping again? I mean, some- Kelsey Murphy (36:02): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (36:04): I don't know. I don't have that hang up, but I also feel like there is something to be said for a book not being the right one for you to pick up at this moment, but it might be exactly what you want in another time. Kelsey Murphy (36:19): Sometimes I will check it out from the library first, and then if I really loved it and I know that I will reread it, or I loved it so much I have to own it, then I will buy it. And then I feel less guilty about- Sarah Mackenzie (36:34): Yeah. Kelsey Murphy (36:35): Just buying it. Sarah Mackenzie (36:35): I cannot tell you the number of husbands I've hid from at homeschool conferences after they say something like, "You are the one who always tells my wife about audiobook deals." And I'm like, "So sorry, I've got another place to be." Kelsey Murphy (36:49): "Got to go." Sarah Mackenzie (36:49): "I'm out of here." Yeah. (36:53): Here's another great question. "What about Read-Aloud classics for families with older children? We did Charlotte's Web and Chronicles of Narnia already." (37:00): So The Hobbit, I know we just mentioned The Hobbit. Kelsey Murphy (37:01): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (37:02): The Hobbit is a fabulous one for just slightly older children. Kelsey Murphy (37:06): Last year I read Johnny Tremain with my older boys, as we studied that era in US History. Sarah Mackenzie (37:15): Oh, yes. Okay. Kelsey Murphy (37:16): And that was a good one. Definitely for older kids, just because of the language. It's not bad, but just how it's written. Sarah Mackenzie (37:25): Yes. It needs a little scaffolding kind of. Kelsey Murphy (37:28): Yeah, yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (37:30): Oh, okay, the chat's full. You guys are amazing. I see Heidi. Heidi would be a great recommendation. Also, The Secret Garden would be a good recommendation. Kelsey Murphy (37:38): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (37:38): I know that everyone thinks The Secret Garden is for girls, my twin boys love The Secret Garden. The Little House on the Prairie books. Kelsey Murphy (37:45): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (37:46): I see, A Little Princess, Pippi Longstocking, Swiss family Robinson. I actually never read the book version of that. Black Beauty. Leilani, her family just recently read Black Beauty and it was one of their favorite Read-Aloud experiences. Kelsey Murphy (37:58): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (38:04): Okay, let's hear from the kids now. I want to know what Read-Aloud Revival kids are reading and loving lately. Let's let them tell us. Michael (38:12): Hello, my name is Michael. I am eight years old and I live in Texas. And my favorite book is Gooseberry Park, and I like the characters and the objects and the food and the friendship. Anna (38:25): My name is Anna and I'm from Texas. And my favorite book is The Voyage of the Dawn Treader. And I like it because Eustace turns into a dragon and that there's no fighting and C.S. Lewis writes the Narnia book. Oli (38:51): My name's Oli and I'm five years old. And I like Pumpkin Soup because I like that they make pumpkin soup. Evie (39:01): Yeah. Phelan (39:03): My name is Phelan and I'm seven years old. I like the Grandma's Attic Treasury, because it's from when this girl's grandma was a little kid and she's very, very cheeky. Stella (39:17): Hi, my name is Stella, I'm nine years old and I'm from Houston, Texas. My favorite book is Honey Butter, 'cause it's about two friends, one's a teenager and one's a little kid. And the little kid doesn't really think she likes books, but the teenager loves books and she teaches her how to like books. And the little girl has a sibling and they hate each other. Well, the teenager told her a story that's a true story about her little brother, and that's why I like it. Moses (39:55): Hi, my name is Moses, I am 12 years old. I live in Muncie, Indiana. And my favorite books are The Chronicles of Narnia. And I like it because it's based off of the Bible. Lucas Ayers (40:13): Hello, my name is Lucas Ayers, I'm from Muncie, Indiana. I'm 10. And I like Roald Dahl books, because they're funny and they have funny words in them. Victor (40:27): My name is Victor, I'm 16, I live in Indiana. And the book I would recommend would be The Wingfeather Saga. They're really, really well-written and they're an original story, and it's not just like your regular creatures like dragons and unicorns. Evie (40:44): Hi, my name is Evie, I'm eight. I live in Indiana. My favorite book is The Boxcar Children. And why I recommend it is because I like how many adventures they take. Fiona (40:57): Hi, my name is Fiona and I live in Indiana, and I'm five. And I like The Action Bible, because it's like all the good stuff and it's like not much because it's really long and it has one dragon in it. Jack (41:16): Hi, my name is Jack, and I live in Texas and I'm nine years old. And I recommend What Is the Stanley Cup? book, because it talks about hockey and I like hockey. Mary Catherine (41:26): Hello, my name is Mary Catherine. I'm 12 years old and I'm from Texas. I love the book All the Impossible Things by Lindsay Lackey, because it tells a wholesome coming of age story and it makes me feel grateful. Sarah Mackenzie (41:41): Thank you so much kids. I love hearing your book recommendations. I always add a book or two to my stack after hearing what you are reading and loving. (41:49): Now, show notes for this episode are at readaloudrevival.com/264. Again, that's where you're going to find that list of classics that we think are really great to dive into next. You can also get it just by texting the word, "classics," to the number, 33777. So if you're on the go, that's the fastest way to get the list. (42:10): Let's see, what else? I think that's it. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. In the meantime, you know what to do, go make meaningful and lasting connections with your kids through books.