All right, all right everyone.

Today on the Body Pod, we are doing our final summer rerun featuring Mickey Willden and this is quite phenomenal timing given that she is my star nutritionist for my upcoming Nutrition Happens course.

So enjoy this rerun with doctor Mickey Willarden teaching us all about what changes we need to make with our nutrition goals over forty enjoy.

Hey everyone, this is Haley and I'm Lara, and welcome to the body Pod.

Welcome back to the Body Pod everyone.

Today we have Mickey Willden, who holds a PhD in nutrition and is passionate about helping to translate evidence based science into practice to help people meet their health and wellness goals.

I have been wanting to have Mickey on this podcast for over a year, so I am super that we finally got a time that worked for both of us.

She is also the host of the podcast Wikipedia, which dives deep into the topics of nutrition, longevity, fitness, and health, and she is the co host of a weekly endurance sports podcast called Fitter Radio.

She is the real deal and you will love this straightforward podcast on all things nutrition for perry and postmenopausal women.

Let's get into it all right.

Welcome Mickey.

You have been on my list for a solid year, so I can't believe it's finally here where I finally get you for this podcast recording.

I am just so stoked to be asked to come on the bod pod and talk to you ladies about all things nutrition and all the things really like, I'm so honored.

So thank you Hayley, thank you Laura.

Yes, well, let me tell you.

I feel like I'm like, why does everyone on the other side of the world like this is who I always connect with.

I know Tony.

I speak to Tony last week even and I see it Hailey's having me on the podcast and He's like, Hailey is amazing.

But of course you guys are very well connected, and I feel like I've known Tony forever, but we've been sort of internet friends forever.

Mm hmm.

Well, I don't know what you guys are doing on the other side of the world, but I'm like my triathlon coach years ago was, you know, from Australia, And I'm like, this is just who I gravitate towards.

But I am so excited because let me tell you what I love most about and I have nine million questions to ask you.

But I love the simplicity that you have with nutrition.

So you're super into the evidence evidence number one.

But I feel like everyone says that nowadays everything is as evidence based, which I do too, but I reach out to people that know the evidence that are way smarter than me with PhDs.

But you also aren't afraid to like make your stance even if it's something that isn't trending in I don't know, on socials.

And I love that because I know I'm getting real, honest, truthful information.

And before I start, I'm going to say I listened to your podcast, and I love, love, love like you were already up here and then now you were like up here when you like called yourself out, you were like, well, somebody called me out and said what is this research?

And you were like I had to call back myself and be like where am I getting this from?

So I love that you're not afraid also to change your mind or as the science comes out, you're like, well, we've always thought this, but guess what, as a scientist, this is the way that this is what it says, so we have to take that into account.

Yeah, and you really do helly like I learned.

I feel like, you know, when you come through university system, as I did, in nutrition, you learn one way.

I've got my science and my science degree in nutrition plus physical activity and education, and you think you know it all.

Actually you're quite arrogant, or at least I think I was.

And so I really had my blinkers on to all of the other information that was out there from the likes of people who really understood nutrition much more than I did just because I had a degree.

But it really took me, like at least ten years post my study to actually realize that there is more to research than just one paper and one interpretation of a paper or and so I think that I really had to check myself then, and it was a really good lesson for me, I think.

And so I'm actually quite distrustful of people who have only who are very black and white, because nutrition, particularly as and as you guys know, of course, for s collectivity, it's not just black and white.

It's about the individual in front of you.

And I feel like that's a message that we need to keep talking more about, because otherwise you can just leave a lot of people confused about the thing that's best for them.

Okay, yes, let's tackle that right away.

Because I just had Abby Smith Ryan on I don't know, I'm sure you're familiar with her, yes, And I kind of asked her the same questions and she was like, Hayley, people are making this so much more complicated than they need it to be.

And you know where I run these nutrition groups with.

Again, I don't.

I don't have the PhD.

So I always seek out you know, people that do that can like you read the research.

This is your job.

Read the research and then tell me you know how we're translating this, So I know enough.

But I always seek out these partnerships that, for sure are you know more more or they know more information than me.

But if we're looking at this and women come in and they're like, tell me exactly my macros and exactly how much of this I'm supposed to do, and I'm like, it.

Doesn't work that way.

Yeah, And if someone is selling you the exact macro fix you know, with knowing nothing about you, Like we have ballparks, we have guidelines for cardio and nutrition, but you run your own groups.

And I love that.

From the nutrition side, I'm like, Okay, you know all there is.

I mean, you know, you're the person that I would look to and be like, Mickey knows her stuff.

She knows her stuff, and she's going to give me the right information whether I think it or not.

So if we're talking about how you and your like how you approach nutrition, and we're talking about the macros, is there a specific macro or for women that are coming to you?

Do those macro budgets in a group setting maybe not individually?

Do you have like where do carbohydrates play a role in compared to protein in compared like comparison with fat.

Yeah, yeah, great question, Hailey.

And you know what, for most of my nutrition sort of career, I haven't really talked to people a lot about macros.

And I know macros are very in right now, like not right now, but they're the thing now and people can go and do courses on macros in the weekend to become a macro coach and help assist people with that.

But I've always thought that, you know, we don't really eat macros.

We eat food, and that's a language that sort of simplifies it for people.

And it's funny because I even get people who sort of say to me, Oh, tell me what macros that I should be eating, And then I sort of have a conversation with them and realize that they're not willing or they don't understand that.

You know, if you know, knowing the macros is one thing, but you know, how do you know how that translates into your real life.

You then have to track your food.

You have to measure everything you eat.

You have to be very calculated.

And many of us, particularly with women of our age, like we have running busy careers, in households and children and maintaining relationships and doing all of the other things, do we really have the time and the energy to now focus and doll down as much as we think we do with regards to our diet, because, as you sort of said, it's actually not that's sort of getting really micro, whereas actually it's a big picture.

That's how I like to sort of approach things.

Having said that, though, protein, as you know, and I know that you agree, it's the thing which most people sort of fall short on, even people who think they have a high protein diet because they're having a protein smoothie in the morning and chicken at lunch and maybe a steak at dinner, Don't they sort of underestimate the amount that they actually need so I talk to them.

So it with regards to the actual amount that I talk to them about, I'm like, look, the IRDI is set at point eight grams per kg body weight, which most protein metabolism experts suggest that's woefully inadequate.

And if we doubled that, that would be probably a good starting point for most people.

Look, and there are of course individual differences, but let's just generally say one point six grams.

But then if we're thinking about fat loss, which is what I talk to a lot of women about, we're thinking more at least two grams per kg body weight, if not up to maybe even two point four grams per kg body weight.

And when we are talking in these gram amounts, a lot of this information comes from protein's role with initiating muscle protein synthesis.

You know, you want that synthetic response to be able to repair and rebuild muscle, But of course protein does so much more than that.

But it's it's hard to measure exactly.

I suppose how much protein we need for neurotransmitter production or to help calm the brain or to help regulate the appetite, and so many other factors come into play, so it does become a little bit more individual.

Like if I've got two people in front of me, and one of them is someone who may and they both want fat loss, and they're both of a similar body size, and I have these sort of targets for them.

Someone might fare really well on let's say two grams pooquegy body weight of protein, and they may easily meet that requirement not feel hungry and distracted by that hunger in between meals, and not feel lacking an energy, and not feel anxious and things like that, and they may be great.

But the other person, who might appear on the face of it to be very similar, they might have a lot of food noise going on.

They may need from a diet perspective, they may need more protein because they need actually need more food to be able to feel fuller for longer, whereas the other person might be good on just small amounts of food.

Someone else might need that real stretch signal from their stomach to help them feel satisfied.

And they may also have some anxiety more so than the other person, which may then require just additional amino acids to help calm the brain down and things like that.

So I always have a starting point, but I always need to understand the person in front of me, which does make it a bit more challenging when you're in that group situation, right when you've got four hundred people, you give them this plan and you're like, you know, go with it, But I mean, that's not how I run my programs.

I'm sure much like you would.

You know, you're in the trenches with them, and you're answering questions and you're tweaking a sort of foundation plan to make it work for them, And I just I always encourage people to just listen to the signs that your body is giving you.

You know, like when you eat in the way that we suggest, where you do moderate protein and moderate carbohydrate and you're eating in a calorie deficit but you're stabilizing your blood sugar, you can much you can be much more confident that your body is giving you messages about how hungry you are and how you feel.

Whereas if you're on a lower protein diet and you may be overshooting the carbohydrate because of that low protein diet and your blood sugars are fluctuating, then a lot of what we feel could be related to those blood sugar fluctuations, and they're not true sort of signals from your body.

So I always start with protein.

I'm very long winded.

I'm so sorry you asked about carbohydrate as well.

Yes, and I think people can get people can misinterpret what low carbohydrate sort of means.

I think that's an important thing to put on the table because I am someone who advocates for a lower carbohydrate approach, particularly as we head into perimenopause and we become more insulin resistant due to the changing sort of fluctuating hormones and inflammation and the reduction and estrogen across that perimenopause or phase.

But it doesn't mean like a ketodiet.

It doesn't mean that you're eating twenty grams of carbohydrate or less.

You know.

I sort of look at if I'm thinking about a meal for someone and I'm putting it together for them, I want maybe equal parts protein and carbohydrate, or maybe a little bit less carbohydrate.

But then if you're active, we want to pop some additional carbohydrate in there.

So I don't know, I might be anywhere from maybe thirty to forty grams of carbohydrate in a meal.

And if someone is in the endurance space and they do require more carbohydrate to help replenish that glycogen host exercise, then we're going to be adding in some additional carbohydrate there, which isn't the same as a kinogenic diet, but it's still a relatively low carbohydrate diet compared to what maybe the general population is eating.

Okay, so two questions.

One, I get this question all the time, So I'm sure you do too.

Too much protein is bad for the kidneys.

What does the science say about that?

Yeah, great question.

And you know, up until maybe even like a month ago, there was a couple of meta analyzes and I believe they may have been published back in twenty eighteen fact check.

That might not be right, but that showed there was no difference in kidney function between for people with a who had a normal kidney functioning.

There was no difference low protein versus high protein i e.

High protein intakes did not affect kidney function.

Now changed the function of the kidney like So there was a little bit more activity across with the markers that they used to assess kidney function.

But it wasn't detrimental.

It just meant the kidney was it just was working a bit more.

But it wasn't harder.

It wasn't it wasn't straining it, I guess, is how you might put it.

But even most recently, I think in the last month, there's been a study published that has shown that a higher protein diet is beneficial for someone even with a low kidney function as well.

So there's this this this is long standing myth that protein negatively impacts the kidney, based on data showing that people with stage four chronic kidney disease are recommended to have a low protein diet.

And that's just that's a category of I guess, a patient which is very different from the general population.

Mm hmm.

Are you a fan of continuous glucose monitor.

For something?

Then this is also quite controversial, isn't it.

But I actually said it is.

Yeah.

I'm asking you all the controversy because I know you'll shoot it straight and I know you'll shoot it from the evidence and the research of what it says.

Yeah, I love it.

Yeah, And you know what, Hailey, like, I understand why people are are somewhat opposed to just focusing on one, one particular thing.

Like I think they are concerned that if we strap a c GM on someone, then what then they will aim to just have an absolute flatline glucose without thinking at all about other aspects of health or other aspects of diet.

But look, I just think that the more that we can understand how food affects our bodies and how food affects our metabolism and how we dispose of that glucose, just the better you're able to make choices that are going to affect your long term health, because isn't that just what we want?

You know, Like, I mean, they're expensive, so there's not something that I would say to everyone, you need a CGM.

But if someone comes to me and says, do you think it would be helpful, then I'm going to have that conversation with them that actually, you know, maybe you could get glean some really good insights into how your body reacts to the types of foods that you eat and how you can sort of manage that.

Because I think when it comes to blood sugar, like we often are measuring or looking at markers that are just too far down the line.

You know, we're waiting for things to go wrong in order to fix them, rather than putting into place the preventative measures that can prevent them from going wrong in the first instance.

Oh okay, so let's move on to the protein timing.

So we have all this new research that has come out about how much protein we can kind of utilize where it used to be like thirty grams and then now it's like up to sixty grams for again, And like, I really want to hone in on what the evidence would show for Perry postmenopause, because that's who I work with, or if we're just assuming certain things for the Perry postmoanopause group, and maybe there's not a ton of research in that area.

It does protein timing matter?

And if so, what does that look like over our meals throughout the day?

Yeah?

Great question, And I love that you asked.

You know, what is it that we assume or what is it that we are just sort of taking almost our best educated guess, Because to the best of my knowledge, there is not a body of literature that has looked specifically at women in perimenopause and assessed different amounts of protein at any one meal and the effect on muscle protein synthesis, which, as I said earlier, is the main marker which which we use to assess that sort of I suppose protein timing aspect.

So, but what we do know is that the older we get, the more protein we need in any one particular time in order to initiate muscle protein synthesis and to get that meet that protein threshold.

And I'm pretty sure it's Don Layman his research.

He's looked at older individuals that might be above sixty years of age and has shown that for them to get a robust signal in the brain, they need to have forty grams of protein in a meal in order to initiate that sort of maximal muscle protein synthetic response.

Yet, if you look at someone who might be say twenty five so young and healthy, then they only require maybe twenty five grams of protein in a meal, or even twenty grams of protein in a meal.

But there's nothing specifically looking at females, and there's nothing specifically looking at that age group.

So what I say to what I say to the woman that I work with, which are largely in that same group that you work with, Hailey, is that we aim for forty grams of protein and a meal because as you age, the brain sort of almost turns down that little like a little dimmer switch, if you like, and so you just need almost more of everything to get that similar same response.

And so we aim for forty grams of protein at breakfast, and we aim for forty grams of protein in the evening meal because we know that you sort of need two times in the day to be sort of hit that muscle protein synthetic response.

And then we aim to collect the rest of our protein across the course of the day, depending on overall protein targets or some of those things we were discussing sort of earlier.

Albeit as well, and I'm sure you've heard this before, is that hasn't been a lot of research done at that lunchtime period, so you know, so whether or not someone is good on teen grams of protein at lunch or you know, thirty grams of protein at lunch when we just don't know that, And then you just got to go back to sort of asking people how they feel.

But I am quite I guess dogmatic about the breakfast meal because we're coming out of like an an overnight fast.

A lot of us we may have just done some training faster training as well, you know, and we're in that catabolic state, so you do need at some point in order to optimize your health, you need to sort of switch that to some more sort of anabolic sort of states.

So I'm really big on that protein.

Yes, so let's let's cover that because the faster training.

You had a post on that.

And when we look at that, like, obviously we don't want to do these long periods of time without food, and we know that from like low energy availability, the reserve that has come out for low energy availability even like throughout the day.

If we look at all of that research, and again we're specifically talking about this population.

If a female gets up in the morning and she's like, well, I've got to work out at five and I've got to run, but I don't want like a food a belly full of food.

What is your recommendation, And I'm guessing that's all on the science that is out there.

What does that mean for their protein?

Can they split it up you know a little bit before, a little bit after, or all before or all after, as long as it's within a window.

What does that look like Because there's a lot of talk and a lot of chatter about the window and you know where that goes with protein specifically.

Yeah, yeah, great.

So the thing with the protein threshold is you do need it in one meal.

So you can't get twenty grams before training twenty grams after training because you're not hitting that threshold to initiate muscle protein synthesis.

So if someone is hitting something for training doesn't mean that they can then subtract that from their next meal like that.

That's in addition to and look, Hayley, I'm not sure about you, but you know, I've worked with thousands of women over my time, and women are so different.

Some women can get up, go for a forty five minute maybe even a harder run, or do a harder session and it's no big deal to them.

You know.

Hormone's fine, sleep is fine, energy is fine, hunger is fine, body composition is fine.

There's nothing actually off.

But some women, if they get up and train fasted, then that just upsets there.

They get hormone disruptions that upsets their sleeper, upsets their energy, their cravings later on in the day.

So there is no there's not a big body of research that has actually looked at fasted versus fed training in terms of its long term impact.

We know from a from a performance perspective, feed always trump fasted training.

We know that, but that's not always the goal of someone getting up going for a run at five am in the morning.

Sometimes it's just to get exercise, you know, we're not all sort of have that athletic mindset.

We also know that there's no difference in terms of fat loss whether you train fed or you train fasted.

There is a difference in substrate utilization.

So you will burn more fatty acids when you train in a fasted state compared to if you have like a carbohydrate before training, but that won't affect your overall fat loss if calories are accounted for.

So these are some of the things we do know.

But I don't know that it's correct to say that no woman should train fasted like there is no I'm not sure where that what markers we're looking at to determine that this is dangerous for all women.

When I'm working with women in mind my fat loss groups who are in a calorie deficit, I do say to them that to get up and train and have something before they train, because when you are in a calorie deficit, those sort of guardrails do change a little bit compared to when you're talking to a woman who is just aiming to maintain her already healthy body composition, because you are running on less calories, so it is more of a stress on your body.

So you do need it, and you want to get the most from that training session, and you want to be able to recover well from that training session so you can do it again.

And when you've got less calories to play with, all of those things become a little bit more challenging.

So I do recommend that in a fat loss phase, if you're training early in the morning, we try to get something in and that something might be it might just be a serve of protein in water or unsweetened almond milk, you know, or it might be like a banana or whatever.

They can tolerate.

That then sort of makes them they've got a little bit of fuel on board, but it's not going to be so much that they're sort of choking down a breakfast.

But then afterwards we still want that sort of maximum amount of protein, well, sorry, minimum amount of protein that I was talking about, that sort of forty grams of protein.

Okay, so we want the threshold to be the two and a half grams of loosing is really the protein synthesis like that that threshold we want to have the two and a half grams of loosen in there.

But if it's before and then say like they wake up at five and then they work out at six, then they might not need it, you know, right after if they got forty grams before.

But that window if somebody decides to wake up and says, has a forty minute run, and it's all in context.

Is it a super hard you know run where you're trying to beat something or is it more a child run?

Then you want to eat.

If you didn't have anything, then maybe you want to eat fairly close after that, So that we're kind of in that pairy workout phase of fueling the body, not necessarily like no one's getting results if they don't do it this way or the exact way.

Yeah, absolutely so.

I if it is a super hard run, then I am going to encourage someone to have something before they go out, you know, And a lot of that come comes down to have it because you know, we get in the habit of doing things a certain way, and our body anticipates food at certain times, and that is a trainable thing.

So you know, if you never eat before giving out training and your training starts suffering, and then I'm going to say, hey, let's try and put something in there, and you'll take a little bit of adjustment and you can start small.

But it's literally just to help you sort of get through your training period.

However, you know, if you think about physiology, like the other time to think of about pre training fueling is actually the evening before, like the dinner, because that's how you you know, you're going to restock a little bit of that glycogen into your muscles at that point, and then overnight, it's your liver glycogen that depletes, it's not your muscle glycogen that depletes.

So which is the liver is like a little holding like a little holding bay for glucose and carbohydrate, and that depletes overnight, but it only takes like a little bit of maybe a little bit of carbohydrate or even just some sprinting like that physiological sort of sprinting exercise sort of will then allow some of that muscle glycogen to travel to the liver to then be sort of pushed out into the blood streams.

So so if you can't eat before training, you really can't aim to have some have it like a decent dinner with some carbohydrate in it the night before, and then get in your nutrition host training within you know, fifteen twenty minutes if possible.

And I'm always going to say, you know, I typically say a protein shaking a banana, and maybe it's because you always sort of go down like what I what would I usually have?

Like a lot of my recommendations come from things that I like, Yeah, that's the thing which I would I would normally like.

But yeah, and the older you get, I think you need a little bit more loosing than two and a half grams actually, like I think it might be.

I'm pretty sure it's closer to three to three and a half, which I know seems like like why would I even mention that, but it because that's it's harder to get it in normal food.

Well, then that would be the recommendation more for forty grams versus maybe thirty grams.

Maybe, yeah, I think so, Yeah.

That's good to know too.

I know, I feel like this is a confusing topic Helene and I've talked about it before, what to eat before, what to eat after to get your maximum benefit, but on not too.

I feel like this might not have to do with people that are focused with athletics, but I still feel like a lot of women are waiting doing the internet and fasting and waiting to eat.

And I hear all the time, you know, I don't have my first melontil noon or one o'clock.

What is your thoughts on that?

Yeah, Like, I do my best to encourage people away from that practice if they're training in the morning.

And look, I will say that intermittent fasting is a really powerful tool for people with severe insulin resistance and really you know, and really poor metabolic health.

And so a lot of what you read on social media is targeted towards that population.

But of course those messages are everywhere.

They hit everyone, and so you're picking them up and you're thinking, maybe this is what I sort of should do.

And so the mentality around that, Laura could be, well, you know, if I get up and I train, I'm burning calories and then I'm not replacing those calories, So I'm going to this will just help my calorie balance.

Later in the day because I'm gonna be hungry later in the day anyway, so I may as well save them.

And the other thing which often comes up is, well, I'm just not that hungry in the morning, and coffee suppresses your appetite.

Being busy suppresses your appetite.

And most people that we work with they have they're either busy at home or they're busy at work, and it's really easy to put off that meal and they think they're getting the benefit from it.

But you know, Hayley talked about low energy availability through the day, and that's a big thing.

Even if you don't have low energy availability, you can still disrupt hormones.

And there's research to show that acute bone turnover markers are compromised if you go for hours without food post train, even if you are meeting your calorie targets for the day.

So, you know, it's so hard to hold onto muscle and bone as we age, and particularly through perimenopause and menopause, that's accelerated aging essentially, so we need to do all we can to hold onto muscle and bone, and the practice of getting up and training and then fasting across the morning is so detrimental to those two things that I just try to encourage people against it because the other thing which people don't sort of realize from a fatoss perspective, is that it's really easy to overshoot your calories in your smaller eating window if you do that, because even if you have an all meal, you can still feel unsatisfied, and then you are constantly grazing in the kitchen or your your you're really like hanging out for that afterwork wine that then you open a bag of chips, but it's fine because you fastered in the morning.

So it's all about you know, you know, So we just make these little justifications in our head, but it does us in and in most people.

Lauren, I'm not sure what your experiences, but this doesn't work long term for most people.

So most people I see are already doing this and it's not working for them, but they haven't quite made that connection or connected the dots themselves exactly.

You actually set up my next question perfectly.

In the last three weeks, I have talked to three different women who were diagnosed with osteoporosis, and they're forty so young, and a couple of them are starting the carnivore diet.

But as I walked away from those conversations, I thought, what is the best thing to do even to not get to that point?

Also, yeah, but you know what can we do?

But even if you don't have our stereo process and we're forty, what can we do to prevent that from happening?

Yeah?

So I think the number one thing, which is which I talk a lot about as well.

Even though my main area of education is nutrition, I use the fact that I have a physed degree is almost like, well, I can still talk about this as well.

But I have to say I think strength training is one of the best things.

And most of the experts would say if you'd never have to choose between protein and strength training.

But strength training is the thing, right, It's that mechanical load of the muscle and the bone, and what occurs when you actually do that progressive overload type work, which isn't necessarily hitting three by five in the gym.

You know, you don't have to go from the cart to deadlifting you know, your body weight or anything like that, but that working to failure however that looks.

So I think strength training is probably the thing, even though, of course we here to talk nutrition, so protein is the next thing to my mind, and I know that you agree, and we already talked about the amounts of protein that I normally sort of operate in.

And then outside of that, we've got creating and we know that currently the research supports particularly for older women, but there's no reason why you wouldn't think about this for women in their younger years.

Like, if you're doing strength training and your protein intake is good, then creating may potentially help with bone as well.

The research is really emerging there.

Vitamin D is essential and down here in New Zealand, the sun doesn't have enough strength in those UVB rays to help us synthesize vitamin D in winter despite how sunny it is, so most people in New Zealand would need to supplement during winter.

It's not a very good public health messag Like no one talks about this, but you know that's it.

That's definitely something which I talk to a lot of people about.

And then you know, there are these other trace minerals that don't even really get featured when we think about bone health.

Things like boron and silica are two trace minerals which are super important for bone.

I discussed on a podcast with someone called doctor Charles Price, and he did a lot of investigation into osteoporosis when his wife got ostroporosis back in the eighties, and he came up with some supplements and it wasn't he wasn't just trying to sell us supplements, as he's moved on from that thing.

But his research showed that, you know, in our sort of modern diet, we don't get a lot of these sort of trace minerals that are really important for bone.

Either collagen is something else.

I'm really like big on and I'm sure that you guys are familiar with research to show how, and I know it's case study research and it's pre clinical research as well, so there's not large human clinical trials.

But there's a suggestion that accelerated sort of healing of tendons and ligaments and I want to say bone, but I might be wrong about that, so so fact check me on that one.

But can but then accelerated healing can occur when you sort of put collagen peptides in with a little bit of vitamin C.

And you know, there is research from Dodtor Mike Ornsby's lab of women in midlife taking ten grams of collagen having a reduction in joint pain and knee pain.

And these are and this isn't an athletic sort of population, you know, women like us.

So I'm going to also suggest that people take collagen as well.

Okay, Mickey, welcome back.

So here we are.

I want to really dive into and start with the cardio portion.

So we hear a lot and there's there are definitely sides of the you know, the different types of cardio that and postmenopausal women should do.

What does this science say, the current science say?

This is where I feel like, you know, any exercise is good exercise and if it's getting you out the door, that's what you should be doing.

But where does that come into place in this each group?

Yeah, great question, Hayley.

And there's just so much chatter about this right now as well, because I'm absolutely with you.

I'm like, any exercise that someone can do is going to be great.

And you know, zone and the Zone two training is the one that immediately pops to mind.

There seems to be some you know, camps that say women should not do Zone two training and don't need to do Zone two training, and then there are other people probably a bit like us, to like do what you love, get out there and just move because it's important as well.

And as far as research goes, to the best of my knowledge, been no human clinical trials of women in our age group to show that zone two training is neither is detrimental al sort of mutual to health.

And you know, we often hear that women are more metabolically flexible than men, so they do not need to do the zone two training for the same reasons that men do zone two training.

Uh, And if they're thinking about metabolic flexibility, I think that they may be referring to There are a couple of things that they're referring to, and one of them is the you know, how much fat we burn during exercise and many trial, many studies have shown that women do tend to burn more fat during exercise than men, so they're more metabolically flexible that way, and they can better access carbohydrate stores.

But both studies aren't done on perimenopause or women.

They're done on young women.

And I think this is where the where the real difference lies, because there is there is research to so that women in perimenopausal and postmenopausal age are less metabolically flexible, you know, they lose that metabolic flexibility, so they lose the ability to burn fat, which sort of suppress so they have a suppressed fat oxidation, so they're more likely to burn sugar and rely on sugar.

And that's when that sort of kicks off, this metabolically inflexible system.

And if you can't, if you can't burn fat as a fuel substrate and you need to rely on sugar, then you just run the risk of ramping up inflammation, fluctuating blood sugar levels, increased cravings produce energy.

And that's just from an almost like what someone might feel point perspective, but under the hood, it's you know, it sets you up for poor metabolic health.

So the idea that women in our age group don't need to do zone two training just seems it doesn't make sense in my mind, to be honest.

Yes, and we're both forty seven.

Yeah, yeah, But I like something that you said in the podcast in one of your podcasts where you said, just because we might be born more with more.

Type one muscle fibers, doesn't mean that we stay that that's the way we stay for the rest of our life.

Well, you know it's interesting, Hailey, because I looked at that research too, and you know the research that I saw on it, and I maybe I might be missing a whole bunch of papers, which you know, it could be.

But from what it appears is that women do tend to have a higher percentage of type one fibers competed to men.

But those amount of fibers in our body is actually quite a small percentage of the overall fiber types that exist, so that they would make a real meaningful difference to your metabolic flexibility is questionable to begin with.

But also some of the research I see that it's used to promote the idea that we don't need to do zone to training.

That research itself shows that sort of beyond the age of sixty, those differences change, Those differences are no longer there.

So you know, if we're thinking about women as we're perim and we're into perimenopause, postmenopause and beyond, like, there is no real difference between men and women in terms of those muscle fiber types as well.

So one I don't know how meaningful that is.

It might be clinically, it might be statistically significant, but how meaningful is it in real life?

And two those differences seem to dissolve.

And hey, but again, like I say, I'm not diving into muscle type muscle fiber type papers every day and haven't done a PhD on it, so maybe I could be missing something.

Okay, well for your PhD and nutrition, this is what I always get asked to and I'm running course right now, and so these questions are are it's a very large large group and there's a lot of questions.

Can you lose or what is the current research say about can you lose visceral and body fat if you aren't in a calorie deficit?

No, in order to lose in order to lose fat, So you like, in terms of if you're going into a fat loss phase, you absolutely need to be in a calorie deficit.

Visceral fat might be different, like, because visceral fat can change when you change your diet or change your practices around training and when you This is in fact where a little bit of intimittent fasting for these people might actually be beneficial.

But fat loss requires a calorie deficit.

Yes, okay, So I mean that's the hard thing is.

I think that a lot of women, at least coming into my courses, they have always been under fueling and over exercising, and they're like, I don't want to go down that road again.

And I think there's a whole different conversation for disordered eating.

Yeah, and that I'm not talking about today.

But if we look for the general female, that's like, Okay, I got the message, I'm going to start strength training, I'm cleaning up my diet.

I'm you know, listening to all of these things that you say, I'm adding more protein, blah blah blah, all of this stuff.

Can they significantly shift their body fat percentage the amount of body fat they carry if they are not in a calorie deficit.

I don't think so.

Okay, I haven't ever seen it.

I mean, there's body recomposition where you can like lose fat, build muscle.

It's such the holy grill that for.

Women that I work with one on one, it's it's just not that like these body transformations aren't half any happening where you're in a surplus and losing body fat.

No, No like that that they're like what I think, Hailey, And this is in my practice, women who are quote unquote doing all the right things, there's just something missing.

And this is where you know, we knew how I said earlier, I said in our earlier episode that you know, I don't necessarily think all women need to track calories or track protein like that.

You know, that's not something that I do a lot of counseling around.

But if you are someone who feels you were doing all of the things and nothing's shifting, then you then you need to track.

Actually, like like that is I think so like I think, you know, if someone who's I work with a couple of different sort of types of women, and one type is one that seems to have dieted all of their lives, They've done all the things, and they've never really sort of been successful long term.

But then I've also been I also deal with women who have been lean all of their lives and they've never had to exercise in a way to manipulate their body composition.

It's just sort of naturally been you know, slim, So they're healthy because of course we've always you know, I use I did a little quotation marks there, because we've always we've always equated being slim with being healthy it's not the case, but that's just how our mind operates.

But then once they come into perimenopause, they don't necessarily gain weight, but their body composition does change, and they do, you know, they get a little bit leaner in the limbs because they lose muscle masks, they get a little bit rounder around in the middle, and they just don't feel in their bodies.

And I and so for these two different women, like the first one I just described, where they felt like they were doing everything right, like they could benefit from tracking to actually seeing what's going in because sometimes they are still over eating on calories even if they're good calories, or they're doing what Laura was talking about in our previous conversation where they're starving themselves in the morning and then they're absolutely overshooting later on.

So actually picking up those habits are really helpful.

But then if you are a woman like the one I described, who has been lean all of her life and now now only struggling with body composition changes, they may not necessarily need to track.

They actually probably do need to just focus on upping the protein sources in their diet, and they've likely got appetite regulation cues already in place because they've been lean all of their lives, you know, and so they probably can regulate a lot better and may not necessarily need to track.

Yes, And I love that you said that, and I love this that you had on your Instagram.

I deserve to way less for the work I'm putting it.

Yeah, I mean, how many times have you heard of like this all the time?

Haley, I'm doing everything right.

I'm doing everything right, and so it must be that my thyroid is low or it must be this.

But ninety nine percent of the time, and this is a super hard conversation to have with someone when they're not getting results.

Is they're like, well, maybe I'm not doing enough.

Hit, maybe I'm not you know my food timing is.

I'm like, no, no, no, no, take out all of that and let's look at the basics.

Yeah, very basic.

So when someone says that to you, I've been putting all this work like most of the time.

Is it that they're eating too much or is it because the protein timing is off or they're not doing enough of the right cardio?

Yeah, no, it's one hundred.

It is that they're eating too many calories.

Then their body is able to burn, you know, And I guess this is a good time to sort of just think about the other lifestyle factors that come into play that do change how your body burns.

Calories too, write like the lack of sleep, like distress like these do impact on our hormones and impact how your body utilizes carbs and fat.

And it can mean that even if you are on lower calories, you can your body can sort of almost it'll take those calories and store them rather than burn them.

So, particularly women of our age group, stress and anxiety for a lot of women can sort of kick up quite a bit, and that will impact both how their body responds to the food that's going in, but also their behavior around food, you know, in what they choose to eat.

And so those are other difficult conversations.

It's so much harder to talk to someone about stress, I feel, because you almost have to get them to examine these parts of their lives, which which then mean they have a hard conversation with the people around them.

You know.

Where's so much easy just to give them a diet plan.

You know, that's what they want to tell me what to do, To tell me what to do, and I'll just blindly follow it and you know, all is great.

So let's talk about that.

Because in the courses that I run, we have a clinical psychologist that has you know, her PhD in behavior change, and most people, I'm going to tell you, I don't even think they listen to most of those episodes or they fast forward because they're like, this is the boring stuff.

I want you to tell me what to eat, and I want you to tell me how to exercise, and this is the fun stuff.

And I'm like, but if you don't change the habits and the behaviors, yeah, you're not changing anything.

And I noticed that you said, if you're not losing weight, look at the snacking for someone that maybe doesn't want to have track or literally like every time I always tell my groups when I go into a fat loss phase, which I haven't for a while, but I'm like, I would give them myself a SEM minus.

Like here I am running the course and like I don't want to measure and ounces everything that I everything that eats, but I can usually do it because I know what's in the food.

I have the education because I have tracked at some point for education, but I also have changed some of those behaviors and habits around it to get success.

So how important do you feel like that is?

It's the thing, Haley.

It actually is the habits and behaviors.

It's the food prep, you know, It's the food planning.

It's knowing what you're going to eat well in advance, if not a day in advance, like maybe several days in advance.

Like, I think these are the things that are really important because you can't wing it out there.

You know, you can, you can freestyle, like you can prep three different protein sources and two different salads and decide how you're going to have them throughout the week.

But you can't wing it and expect to be successful because that environment isn't set up to allow for you to be successful.

There is food everywhere, Like if you're starving and you're going into like I don't know, Walmart or something, and then I mean there's you know, food every but there's even food and like closed stools like Forever New and I don't know what other closed stores you guys have, but you know that, yeah, there.

Is no Yeah, if you make the USA, I mean I've been to New Zealand and I've been to Australia multiple times, and I'm like, there's not a McDonald's and a Burger King on every single corner, like it's all in your face.

And you walk into the Target or the Walmart and the whole back to square aisle is complete junk food.

Yes percent.

And the thing is, you do need to exert some discipline and will power, particularly at the beginning of a fat loss phase, for example.

But if you set your diet up right so you are hitting the protein that we're talking about, you're not overshooting carbohydrate, you're feeling satis with your meals, and you have actual defined rules around how you eat.

That sounds very dogmatic, I completely appreciate that, but this is the discipline that you need to exert that allows you to not have to rely so much on willpower.

You know, like when you're underfueling and under eating and training faster and then and then and then continuing that fast across the course of the morning, You're like, just like, you've got very little You've got a lot of discipline up until that point, but you've got very little willpower.

It's like a muscle that we exert and you've used it all in that morning.

Unnecessarily so and it just sort of does you in.

So the whole idea of no snacking, like you just make it, you just take it off the table, like you're just not a person who snacks, you know, breakfast, lunch, and dinner, And you make these rules and you stay by them, and I just think there's real freedom there because then you don't have to come into every opportunity to eat, like then you have to make the decision do I snack, do I not snack?

What do I have to eat?

How much should I eat?

You know, these are things which can really tie people in knots, and so often they get it wrong.

Now, if you are someone who traps calories and you've accounted for these calories and you know how this is going to affect your overall energy budget by the end of that day or the week, by all means work in your snacks.

But if you're not someone who's going down that road and you're just sort of basing it on sort of meals, then I feel like these rules are really important initially.

And what I will also just say is that it is actually work to change your body composition and to also maintain that.

So and that's not a bad thing, you know, like that really isn't to exert discipline in this space.

Isn't obsessive, It's not like you've got a problem.

It's not it's not all of these negative connotations that people often associate with looking after yourself, because is actually just looking after yourself and your health in the long term.

And I'm not sure why we expect that we should just be able to do it, because you just can't do it now environment we do have to work on it.

And then just when you feel that it gets easy and then gets hard again, so just expect it to get hard again, so you know that you have to continue to work on it, and just I don't know, just pack yourself on the back every single day that you've managed to achieve largely what you set out to achieve, and celebrate the fact that you are working towards your health.

And I think people don't celebrate that enough either.

That's such a good point.

I love that you said that.

Yeah, so if we're looking I love that you say a good diet doesn't happen by accident.

And for me, I feel like the preparation, yes, number one.

But for those people that again, calorie tracking can work for some people.

Some people need it and they love it, but then for others, they're like, it does my head in the second I think I'm going on a diet and I have to track, I like push back most of the time.

If I'm just like, pay attention to your portion side and cut out snacking.

You are not going to die by missing your two snacks in the day.

Yes, No, totally, It's totally the same.

And you know, and also I find it hilarious that people come into my program and I just started one actually this week, and so I've got several hundred people in there and we're talking, and I get all of these emails going, I'm so excited to start this.

Can I still eat this breakfast?

And can I still do this?

Want this thing?

Will we become so attached to our food?

You know, so many people sign up for a plan but don't even really want to follow it.

They sort of just want approval of what they're already doing, you know.

Like I find that mentality really funny as well.

And we change, right, And I always say this to people as well, is that is that we have these narratives in our head of the type of person we are, the type of foods that we eat, the things that we do.

And these are narratives that have just been ingrained for years, if not decades, but you can shift them and evidence builds confidence.

So part of it is this is why the behavior change work that you do, Hailey, is just so important.

I wish more people understood that, because that is what they need to change.

They need to change how they talk to themselves about their diet and their fatness and the exercise.

They have to change how they view themselves.

They have to sort of almost change, like some of what they think they like and don't like and like tastes change as well.

Like you, you know, you might think that you couldn't possibly give up your I don't know, like raspberry frappuccino or whatever it is, but go without for ten days and you'll find you'll just really love, you know, the new egg white bites and is Americano whatever it is that you're changing to.

You know, yeah, yes, and when you see you can you can't eat your way to a better physics.

So here we're saying, I think the nutrition is the biggest component most women can get to the gym.

My job's easy.

You know.

I put out the strength program and it's like, well, just go and do it, and then this one overloads onto the next one, on to the next one.

If you have intelligent programming, it's you know, it's it's hard to do.

Good programming is hard to do.

So there's a lot out there that are just all over the place.

But the nutrition is what throws people off.

So when you say you can't eat your way to a better physique, what does that mean.

I mean it comes back to what we were discussing with well bone, but also like muscle, like muscle required to build muscle, you need to do strength training, but you can't.

Yes, you can lay down some lean tissue by increasing your protein, like we know that you can do that.

So but ultimately the biggest driver of that physique change, which is what I think a lot of women want in terms of being more They call it toned, but it's actually building muscle, you know, like this this is the thing that they come to me for.

But you need to do the training for that.

Like the diet supports a good intelligent training program, and oftentimes with diet, if you're just relying on that calorie deficit.

You just end up being a smaller version of yourself.

You're not building your body, you're sort of you're just becoming a smaller version of yourself, which may or may not be a good thing.

And for a lot of women who aren't engaging in strength training, it's not necessarily the best thing.

But what I do feel is like a lot of women are quite intimidated by some of the messaging around exercise right now.

You know, like we were talking about the Zone two training.

You know, like you shouldn't do this, you have to do this, you know all of the rules that are put around that.

But as I understand it is that it's that progressive overload to failure.

And you'll know way more than I do, I'm sure, Hayley.

But and you know, it's actually challenging the muscle is the main thing.

It's not about having to do sets of repetitions that then place you at risk of injury.

I'm not sure exactly I mean.

And I definitely preach using all rep ranges because you can't stay in one rep range and keep getting even with varied trainings and overload methods.

The body needs a variety, but it needs intelligent a variety, and there's different purposes in different plans for each rep range.

And my goal as more and more women are coming into the space is I don't want, you know, a whole generation of injured women that are out for nine months because they're like, well, now I have these tendinopathies, or now I threw out my back and I can't do this.

Usually it's well, you did too much too soon, or you know you weren't ready for this, or your form is.

I mean, there's a lot that goes into it that way, but there's I don't believe in any absolutes.

There's one way.

There's tools in a toolbox that have to be worked out.

And I think that's the message that you're saying for women out there, like if this works for you, I'm never going to discredit you know that this works for you.

If this works for someone else, provided that they're all under the umbrella of everything we've been talking about.

Those are the important things that there isn't an exact approach.

And I think that the women in.

This age, and you can say how you feel, but they come in almost desperate because they are thrown advertisements every day about what is the exact thing to do, and they're just like, I'm freaking tired of like, now this is it good?

Now this is good?

This is bad.

You know, this is what I should be.

This is why I'm not getting results when it's a time thing.

I mean, do you ever see body compositions completely change and you know, a couple weeks.

And I you know, people have just promised these these these results that are just well almost seemingly impossible but absolutely unsustainable.

And I think I feel like that's really important as well.

And you know, we spend for a lot of women, they spend their thirties to mid forties gaining weight but not really not really noticing.

You know, it's sort of eating to ignore.

And I know some people won't understand this, but literally, someone can stand on the scales and be fifteen kilos thirty pounds heavier and not even really realize it because of you know, they haven't really paid attention and things get a little bit tighty, just wear slightly different clothes, you start buying slightly different sizes, and then suddenly you were thirty pounds overweight and didn't even know it.

But that happened over the course of you know ten years, whereas I don't think anyone should expect to be able to then in twelve weeks go back to where they were ten years ago.

So you know, a hell sort of rain.

A healthy amount of weight to lose in a sustainable fashion might be anywhere from say point five to one percent of your body weight.

Now we know that rapid fat loss does work, though, Like I think Bill Campbell, who I believe is an expert, and you know, he's done some great research.

You know, you go in, you lose that, you come out at short.

It does the job, But I'm not sure how suitable that method is for a lot of people that I work with.

But I mean, you know, it's good to know that it can happen.

But I think people should look at their you know, we need to be patient and look at this as like a long term way of doing things, like a forever approach.

And it's just it is like a very aversion of your forever diet and your forever exercise plan.

But right now the version that you might need to use is one that ellstits a fat loss rather than one that just allows you to maintain a healthy physique and allow one to two years for that.

Like I have women that when I started my group program, it was in twenty twenty one, and they've done several of my plans and they sort of come in and they lose like six or eight kilos and then they maintain that weight for like six months, and then they joined the group again because they love the community, but they also want to take the thinking out and they're ready to hit that loss again.

And this is how they use that approach.

And I think that if you are patient, you almost take off the pressure that you have to do it all in twelve weeks, you know, and that it has to be done immediately, and this is such an important thing, which you know, we should almost relish this opportunity to to make these changes because their changes for our health, and you deserve to feel good when we're doing it.

And then also understand that it takes time.

Yes, okay, I'm two important points.

Number One, I love Bill Campbell.

He's actually coming on to be a guest expert along with you for a Q and A.

I mean, and he's just I think he said once, and he's seriously the most humble, nicest guy, and he's like I think I know more you know about fat loss than anyone else, and this is what I'm telling like, this is what the science said, this is all I've devoted my life to.

So it's so great.

But I you know, I've had women come in that are like, well, I you know, I thought I was going to do a twelve book program and have arms like you, and I'm like, I'm been building my physique for five years, like it doesn't just happen overnight, but to wrap it up because I know we're out of time.

I love your mindset, I love the habits that you teach women, and I love your kind of nobs approach where it's just like if the science changes, Mickey changes and it isn't afraid to change your mind based on that, and knowing that we have so much to learn about this perim postmenopause phase things.

In ten years, you know, our kids are going to be way more about it, like the better off than we were coming into the space.

So that's such an important piece of it too.

So I have so many more questions.

But thank you Micky again.

For coming on and just for your personality and for the ability to really give us straight information that means so much to me and I just appreciate everything that you're doing in the field.

Well, thank you both.

Like I really I loved as you can tell, love talking about this, could talk about it all day, and these conversations I think are really important.

So I'm just so thrilled to have the opportunity to come on your show and be able to have them and share them with a wider audience.

So thank you so much, thanks for listening.

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