Nice, you know with AMMO.

I was like, it just fits, man.

So we just went live just after you said the look that you're you're going after right now?

So what was that look?

I said?

I said, I'm doing my best like Tim Sundle's homage here, because that's not a slight at Tim.

He's had some really good, really good AMMO videos, uhs And yeah, yeah, I'll like.

You their stuff.

Speaking of AMMO, I just shot some more of that forty four magload today through the lever gun.

Which is the two sixty five.

Yes, oh god, it's glorious and.

I cannot wait to crush some white tails with this load.

It's going to be absolutely murderous.

Mm hmm.

I still have some left.

My one of my local shops is actually checking.

He's got a pretty good clientele on that side, and he's going to like talk to a bunch of them and see and he might just buy a bunch of it and carry the shop they have.

It seems like you first brought it out, people bought a little bit of it.

Now it's just kind of just sitting there.

Yeah, Well we'll get some more going.

I'm certain it's like anything this time of year.

Man, it's after this discussion.

Yeah, there we go.

Yeah, so you never know.

So we might as well do the official start.

Hey one METTLANDFA here Primary and secondary.

Welcome to podcast.

The episode number is four thirty six.

The date is July thirtieth, twenty twenty twenty five.

We're gonna be talking about AMMO selection because we talked we've talked about ballistics, but we haven't really talked about what round should be best for whatever task.

They're the generic.

There's the generic stuff.

You're using FMJ for training and it's HST or gold dot for everything else.

That's not necessarily the case, especially when you go into and we have some prime example people right here get into the hunting rounds, or you're going into some other territory that we're going to discuss, and I thought it would be just fun to have that AMMO discussions before we started.

Steve had some really interesting things to share, not only about the state of the training industry but also the AMMO, so we'll get into that.

Additionally, the other thing that I thought would be nice to discuss is zero wing, because that's kind of important if you're going to classes and you don't know the condition of your firearm, that is it going to line up with the ammunition you're using.

You're probably you're creating a bit of an issue.

If you're carrying a firearm and you don't have it zeroed to your sites based on the ammunition you're using, there's going to potentially be an issue.

So we're going to talk about that.

There might be one or two people additionally join us.

My backgrounds and LA Enforcement been doing the cop things since last century.

I've been doing primary and secondary for over ten years now.

Absolute blast putting people together like this.

Have these just absolute solid discussions and.

Right off the bat.

Yeah, we don't get as many clicks as other places, but what we're providing is long term benefit five years from now, ten years from now.

As a matter of fact, even now, I'm still getting comments from our old videos from ten years ago where people are saying how it is just absolute gold, and it still is.

Everyone here is going to be doing their backgrounds, They're going to do their interests.

What I want you, the viewer, the listener to do is pay attention to who these guys are, what they represent, who they represent, and if they're saying stuff that you like, you need to follow them.

You need to find them, you need to share, you need to subscribe, all that kind of stuff, because those algorithms don't work in our favor.

So make sure you are supporting those sources that you have found to be beneficial.

The two Steve's and the and the Why have been on many times.

If you're not already following these guys, you are missing out period.

We'll see.

With Michael, I don't know, well, I don't know, maybe, but yeah, I think this is I say this with every episode, but I really mean it.

This is going to be another one of those episodes where they're going to be such cool things explained.

We're getting into some ballistics, getting into ammunition selecting.

We do have a reloading episode.

It's not today, it is in the future where we also have the episode I think I'm going to call it is Stupid Big Bores that's coming up.

I have to wait still another couple of days before we can do that one because of some things.

But yeah, have some other things on just just waiting to happen.

So let's get some backgrounds going.

Steve Fisher.

Been a long time going to be back on the show, you know, twenty plus odd years industry guy, firearms trainer, instructor, product development guy, optics, firearms gun design guy consultant within the industry to include AMMO, so a lot of it.

That's kind of not really a new endeavor but so to speak.

But we worked with obviously the other Steve on some ammunition for hunting, just all around, hands in a little bit of everything right now.

Yeah, yeah, mister why.

Brian with a why, Let's see current project American Fighting Revolver dot com.

See, I've retired law enforcement twenty one years, four year stint in the army before that fun stuff.

Yeah, main deal is American Fighting Revolver, and we're trying to really press the manufacturers to do better revolvers and better configurations and do a lot of consulting with Litzi's and I think I think we're on NDA's with all the revolver companies now.

So I believe it.

Even if I knew what was coming, I couldn't say it.

But I'll tell you, I'll tell you I'm not under NDIA with him, and I already I'll tell him.

But but yeah, and then uh, ammunition development just kind of thanks to Steve Shields and uh, that that just kind of fell in my lap because I'm a pretty avid handloader and uh, and then I wanted to throw a shout out to Mike Canfield, who a is one of the nicest human beings in the entire gun industry and b makes two of the best pieces of kit that I use almost daily, the Ransom Master Matt and the multi cow Steady Rest.

So I'm going to plug Mike for that.

Yeah, and it's because of that, I thought it would be cool to have him for the zero not only the AMO but the zeroing.

Part because it just makes sense.

Steve use it today.

Yeah, Steve Shields, I got a question from Mike real quick.

Were you doing at revolve around up last year?

Yeah?

Absolutely, Okay, that's yeah, okay, yeah right, yeah, I got because of why there I got one of your mats.

Oh my god, that's a that's a good one.

That's a good one.

And then he showed up.

You showed up on what you were zeroing that were you using that we're using your which round were you using when you you filmed what you were doing off that Ransom rest, off that off that whole we have that pistol rest thing you were using the pod.

Yeah, we were doing some rock cutter stuff.

But yeah, Chuck also uses the rest here in his ballistic gel tests.

And that's that's big oak I heard.

And yeah, he does that at least for two years.

He's been using our multi col rest.

Before that, he did it off of bags.

But I believe he's upgraded to our rest.

I believe, hopefully sole leap.

But we'll leave him to comment on that one.

Yeah, I've never seen it before, Brian.

Brian just did a video you were you were zeroing something off of it on that Yeah, you had it attached to a tripod.

Yeah, I had that.

I had that mounted on a camera tripod.

I was shooting the Anaconda six inch forty four mag with three hundred grain high desert.

That's right, Yeah, four inch, the new four inch mountain gun.

So how did I miss this?

How did I miss this thing?

Where have I been?

Because I'm still using tripods, bags and tabletops of classes.

Well, the the and and we're going to talk about AMMO here in a minute.

Appreciate the introduction and and Mike and from Ransom Rest.

And Yeah, if you don't know us, we've been around since the sixties.

I suppose the military, FBI DJ consider a ransom rest the industry standards for firearm testing machines.

We can talk more about my history as the podcast goes on.

I don't want to bore you.

There's a whole lot to discuss as far as today and age.

We're kind of the evil stepchild of the testing industry.

People don't talk about us a lot, you know, used by all firearm manufacturers and AMMO makers for that matter.

The interesting the people I talk to, and blessing with the people I talk to, very humbly, and I love I actually man crushing here on Brian and we love American Fighting Revolver and these guys are awesome.

And yeah, primary secondary love the podcast and the streaming.

I always hear it later.

I never get catched alive.

Probably take us there.

Hey, we're at the shop here and sorry for the background, but it gets better reception.

You've ever been out to gun Site Academy.

I'm not too far away.

You've been to Gunsight, which is Paul Diennenchino.

Well, about twenty miles south of there is home Bolt, Arizona, Humbolt, Dewey, and I'm in Humboldt Dewey.

We don't have the best internet connection, so the shot makes the best sense.

And it's only five here, so you know, I know it's eight, So you're like, hey, what's he still doing at work?

Hey man, I live here.

If you only company, you live there, But no true be known.

It's actually just after five here.

Everybody has left and it's quiet.

So appreciate the introduction.

But that that's what a ransom rest is.

So we remove the human error out of accuracy testing.

And we're talking about AMMO selection.

I love Daryl Boke's approach.

dB.

He's like, you know the the and this where the multi cow got brought up.

It's in the tripod.

You were mentioned in the tripod.

I wanted something I can stand there, practice proper stance, site picture grip, be able to relax.

I'm a big guy.

I don't want to be hunched over a bench trying to aim this thing like this, you know, trying to get a It's just unnatural.

And then it doesn't build any confidence in me.

And let's say the Master Series rest you did or didn't do your Master Series rest test, so you do or don't know what you're gonna But if you're gonna do it off hand.

You want to be natural and duplicate that shot.

So that's where the multi Cali I wanted it to mount on the tripod inexpensive hit that inexpensive niche and dB was saying, you know, the Master Series REST is a little more complicated or scientific.

It really ain't.

To be honest with you, and we're going to talk about AMO here.

The Master Series REST is really our approach to you know, a bull approach because in my opinion, you know, Missouri showed me State right, and I don't want to for you guys, but Missouri showed me State.

It kind of has that approach.

Show me how good your AMMO is, you know, show me what you're I don't care about barrel pressures.

Brian was talking about that on your last podcast.

That's great and we can get really geek out on that stuff.

And penetration is good.

Everybody geeks out on penetration right now and the bulletl tests and if you listen to reloaders, everybody geeks out on the velocity and SD's and it has to be so much us D and timbers in you know, I've had guns that you know it has fifty feet per second spread and that thing's driving attack.

Twenty five yards away.

I'm happy.

You know, proofs in the pudding and it has fifty feet per second spread, and you're like, oh, it's got to be within certain SD.

At the end of the day, it fits within Sammy speck and it runs through your gun.

Great.

I've heard comments like, hey, this gun runs everything.

It just feeds everything.

Yeah, but where's the repeatability of it?

You know?

And so we geek out on ballistics, gel penetration.

But what where we come in.

This isn't me the gun, the barrel of the ammo.

Why can't I hit the broad side of the barn?

You know what?

Why is my group not one inch two inch?

Why when I show at the range, I look like a dork and Jerry Mitchellick is next to me just driving aady you know, and you know, and that's what it's about.

We we kind of got forgotten about because everybody's running and gunning.

Bullseyes went away, you know, accuracies went away.

It's about running and gunning.

But if you think about it, it's more important now than ever.

By the time you get down to the last plate and you just ran your ten to fifteen yards and you're gonna come up and hit that stop plate.

You're adrenaline's pumping and you you better hit it, and you know, especially in self defense or otherwise.

So sorry to go ahead other questions.

I didn't mean to continue to talk.

Oh you're good, You're good.

I didn't mean to continue babble.

But yeah, I got some AMMO back here, and we can continue to talk about it.

But you know, if I can sum up this podcast right now, we can all go home and have a drink.

It's five o'clock, they've all left.

You know, I got a little flasky say all right, there you go, but.

Kind of I kind of, you know, switched it out a little bit, but quickly because that's a good conversation.

Now.

I mentioned that because I thought I met you down at gun Sight last year all around up and Brian was using one of your rests on the tripod.

I think, oh my gosh, go again.

You guys just spend my money all the time.

Anyways, let's use company backgrounds.

Twenty seven years law enforcement, retired ten years ago, been in the animal industry ten years.

Did a stint at our academy top firearms up there for three years at our State Academy.

Helped me write the curriculum for the academy and post academy curriculum for training.

I don't know what it is now, so I don't you know.

I don't.

Signing on to it now.

We had a good group up there.

Then did forensics for about seven years, five years in doing my own research during autopsies and bullet performance and actual shootings.

That's kind of me in a nutshell, and then yeah that's me.

I'm good to make an animal.

Just watch machine go up and down.

People like Fisher over there were going, hey, man, can you make this insane round for me?

Yeah?

Yes you can, Yes, Yes, yes you can.

Awesome.

So Mike, regarding your background, how did you get into this?

I was actually, honestly twenty four years of the aerospace industry.

If it flew, I made a part for it.

In two thousand and six when we shot the satellite down over the Atlantic Ocean, I had thirteen parts on that rocket.

I have a little black op certificate, you know, Save Lives, Synchronous Strata Flight Compass Aerospace.

That's my background.

During Desert Storm, I was making parts for the aprams tanks F eighteen fighter jets when we had.

To re armor the hump.

Yes, I was doing a lot of that the Apache helicopter after desert storm, when they the sandstorms would come through and it would knock out.

The fly bioptics.

So the patchy flies by optic right thing over the eyeball and it fly by optic.

Well, the sandstorms would come through and knock out the fly bioptic, and so they had to revert to the dashboard.

Well, the dashboard was straight up and down.

Apparently, I mean, I've never flown in a patche Please forgive me.

You know a lot of assumptions here, I guess, But the dashboard was straight up and down.

They had to, you know, lean back to look at the dashboard, and they're.

Flying, they lean back and look at the dash and so Boeing and Honeywell and everybody stepped in said, we really need to tilt this dashboard and change the whole dashboard cluster.

So when this happened, you have a secondary right, you have a secondary fallback plan.

And so so they prototyped and redid the dashboard and tipped it.

And I prototyped three of those, sent one down to Tucson Boeing Test Division.

They blew it up, sent one up and then a patche It was just neat.

Hey, I'm just the guy who made the parts.

You know.

It sounds spectacular and it looks good on paper, but to be honest with you, I'm just guy to make the parts.

At one point, I.

Was just everybody's like, Hey, what's that part for, what's this part for?

What's that part for?

And it sounds cool, But at the end of the day, it was just a part, and it was a part.

I have a little vow body from F eighteen set here in the you know.

But at the end of the day, they were just parts at the time, and I needed to get out of corporate and I'm known Ransom for a long time and then Chuck Ransom passed away and wanted to salvage the company.

So with some aerospace friends and investors, we stepped in and we convinced, you know, the Ransom family, and we had purchased Ransom and I feel nobody else really knew more about Ransom Rests and it needed to be backed by a machinist, engineer, programmer.

The Ransom family tried to run it for a long time, but to be honest with you, it was struggling circle in the drain whatever, no innervation, whatever not on them, just it takes that drive.

And I had a friend of Chuck.

Ransom's in the other day and said, you'd really Chuck would be proud and you had such a vision.

And I looked at him.

So I don't believe it was a vision.

I don't believe I had a vision for Ransom had a hunger, had a hunger.

It couldn't fell, you know.

I mean, sure vision was there, but I think Ransom was drived out of necessity.

Is it me?

The gun?

The AMMO was drived out in necessity?

And Chuck Ransom always had a philosophy if you see a need, fix the need, and it sells itself.

So that's really what we're about.

Out of necessity, and that's where FAFR got bred from.

That's where you know, primary secondary, it's out of necessity.

And I think if you hit that niche out of necessity and that's kind of where we're talking about today, is about AMMO and you know, accuracy, repeatability of the AMMO and then how zero sites, how to necessity and it's my life.

My life depends on it.

Your life depends on it.

I think we always teach you know that missing out the range is okay.

You go to the range to miss.

You go to the range to practice.

People get worried that when they missed at the range and they look dumb.

Hey, I go to the range to miss.

Missing in real life never acceptable.

And so whatever I carry as a defense, I want to have as my training of some way I need to train the way I defend, because I'd like if I miss, I need to do it at the range.

Scary.

It's scary.

I'd never want to be in that situation.

I go to listen to Brian and dB and the people who've been there.

I don't I'm a machinist.

I don't know.

You want to know my amo?

Hey what ammo's the best?

Go test it?

We have a saying over here at Ransom Rest.

If you're not testing, you're guessing.

You want to know the best AMMO for your gun.

We'll solve this whole podcast.

We can all go home.

You need to test it.

I'm sorry.

If there was a perfect AMMO for a block, you'd go to the shooting range and buy Glockammo.

You know, hey, and go down to the local gun show and say, hey, I want glockammo.

You know Smith and Weston, M and P.

I'd sell it to you.

You know, it doesn't exist.

And I can explain why, and we can get more into that a little bit more, but truthfully known, it really doesn't exist.

Some of that's personal preference.

Sure we can get into Ford, Chevy Dodge, you know, we can you know, pressures and bullets and penetrations and we can gek out on all that stuff, but at the end of the day, to me, it really depends on the penetrations, your defense, your hunting right Steve and all that that is primary, and then you got to make sure your repeatability is there.

Good stuff.

Well, before we jump into the actual topic, Steve Fisher did bring up a couple of topics I thought would be a good foundation to a lot of this discussion.

One is the current status in the training industry.

And then also what we're looking at potentially at with AMMO, pricing, availability and all that good stuff.

Steve.

You know, after some calls meetings today, we've talked several manufacturers and you know, kind of groups that are only not in the buy groups.

But actually the individual companies.

And again right there are several that are now questioning due to tariffs possible to Graff's coming in the next day or two, that they have actually stated at some point they will probably remove themselves from the US market.

Right for Ammo.

Also, we're looking at what will happen with that in the coming week's future, whatever it may be with raw materials do to the terroriffs, what that's going to start to do with an increase.

This isn't the hey, panic, go buy Ammo speech.

This is the current state of things that we are currently dealing with.

So that was a couple of interesting talks today.

And then it was also the number of agencies recently, like in the past twenty four hours that have literally budget slash, cut, no go, killed off all outside training for the year.

You know, that affected me and a few other dudes within the industry space.

And while like the training circuit right now is up and down, right, you may have a full class this week in one location, you may have five in another, or you may have five or six you're getting ready to cancel this course, and you know, two weeks beforehand, all of a sudden being.

You know, it's like, oh, well, I was going to sign up for that or this, So we're seeing this really weird flux tied right now because right now, let's be real, most shooting courses anything else are luxury items.

Not a lot of people have the extra income for that.

Luxury items ammo, hotel, travel, lodging, time away from home.

We understand all this.

So it's been an interesting year just to watch and see it shift again.

You know, we saw this many many moons back within the same industry space, but now it's just been a consistent across the board for a lot of dudes, and while others are doing extremely extremely well on certain sides of the house because they teach a very niche kind of deal to a lot of people, or it's just something that is the latest, greatest popular or whatever, and everybody wants to going to touch that magic too, And it's great to see that a lot of dudes are doing well.

It absolutely is not that most of us are hurting by any means, but it's just been an interesting flip within the industry space and watching and hearing between tariff talk, raw material talk coming out of you know, all the foreign countries that distribute or get us a lot of raw materials for AMMO primer's powder.

It's all happening again to Pandy's tariffs, and it's mainly i think, going to deal with a lot of Easter and Eastern European blocks, South Central American stuff, things of that nature.

It seems to be the main targets right now on that from the meetings.

So it's going to be an interesting time to see what happens.

It really truly is.

And even though like the AMO pipeline is stuffed full of AMMO right now, warehouses manufacturers are sure it is stacked in the city.

It's been kind of interesting to look at the numbers behind the scenes and go, wow, it is that bad right now.

So yeah, it's just kind of been a very interesting time with this and seeing what's actually happening.

And going on.

So so someone may hear everything you just said and wonder, okay, how's this tie in.

Let me tell you how this ties in, because if you know the kind of AMMO you should be getting, that's the direction you need to go.

Don't leave it to go into the sporting goods store and buy whatever's on sale at least for defensive stuff, you need to already know what's working in your gun and then get it and test it and then get it.

And that was one of the nice things.

Not to.

Not to shill high desert cartridge, but that was one of the nice things I've found with Steve Shield's revolver ammo is I'm finding there's consistency here, there's availability, the pricing is very reasonable.

I don't need to get I don't need to buy other stuff.

That's kind of a first world kind of cool thing.

I don't need to go to the sporting goods store and anytime I see thirty eight buy it.

No, I'm going to stay consistent and I'm going to buy the stuff that I know this stuff runs them a gun.

So with that in mind, what are the factors you guys are considering when it comes to your defensive ammunition.

And we'll start with defensive and then we'll go into hunting.

But for defensive and we have our revolvers, we have our short super short barrels, we have little snubbies, we have our longer barrels, my autos and longer barrel revolvers.

What are the different things that you're looking for out of the ammunition you carried defensively.

Brian, Well, one of the great pluses on revolvers.

Since the gun is not driven by the ammunition, you have a lot more flexibility.

So if I can't find my favorite defensive load, if I can find something similar comparable, I don't have to worry about function of the gun.

I'm just testing accuracy penetration stuff.

Whereas you know some of our pet semi autos, they can be really really AMMO sensitive, and I just I don't see that as much of revolvers.

So defensive AMMO.

I have a stash at one thirty five gold dot like a bunch, and.

That that's pretty much what I feed it.

If I can't find that.

Or I'm rat holing that, I go with Steve's one five thirty eight XTP because it's it's really close to gold dot.

And then you know in snubbies, I don't get wrapped around the axle about hollow point or whatever.

It's like.

Most decent target AMMO.

And that sounds totally counterintuitive.

I'm talking one eight gold medal match wadecutters there, yeah, even one even one round nose lead federal cheap dirty practice, ammo.

When you put it in a snub it it just things.

Just work out.

You got an inch and seven eighths of barrel, You're not gonna get a lot of terminal performance out of that round.

You're barely getting it spun up before it leaves, you know.

But but there again, I'm not as picky.

I shoot a lot of the high desert plated and that stuff works just like any of the other lead wade gutters, right, It doesn't get the guns dirty.

So yeah, I just I like, I don't wrap myself around the axle on that now on the three fifty seven side, I do because typically three fifty seven I'm not going to shoot in a short barrel gun.

So you know, if I'm shooting vintage guns, it only gets fed.

Steve's one fifty eight because the stuff is kind of comparable to like a plus P thirty eight doesn't ring flavor.

Yeah, doesn't ring my chambers.

It's easy on the gun.

It's easy on me when I go above that.

It's a handload and it's for something specific, right, But but yeah, I got like my wife walked out in the garage.

She's like, how many of these little square cardboard boxes.

Do you have And I'm like tons, that's cool and they all say high desert on them.

Yeah, so.

That But for defensive it's like in revolvers, I don't overthink it near as much.

As I do on the auto side.

So my two cents, Yeah, Steve, as in Fisher, we'll go to shields last as the AMMO gang, you know, kind of the same thought process of Brian.

When I do carry a J frame gun around.

Is generally some kind of wad cutter load in it because it's generally an airweight, you know, short barrel, not a lot of veloscy not a lot of juice.

I just need a round that's going to hold integrity and penetrate at that point in stage of the game.

This is what I'm looking for when I start getting into some of the other guns, mainly my autos.

You know, for me, it's one is it a proven load?

Right?

Is it proven?

Does it work?

Okay?

Then does it cycle work?

In my guns?

It could be anything from like my little gym bag gun, which is either a Clock twenty six or like a Taurus CHIF four XL right, little gun, shorter barrels right, Cycling doesn't cycle doesn't work, does it run?

What does the accuracy look like?

What are the numbers reading over the kronos?

All these little things, because I have to decide, well, this shorter gun isn't going to give me the ternal performance of one forty seven G twos versus a one twenty four plus p whatever whiz bang that somebody.

Likes to shoot this week.

And it gets the point where anymore we can get into the weeds so deep that I go, is it accurate?

And will it land where I wanted to land when I do my job correctly?

And what does that performance look like?

When I look at some of the smaller Samiato guns.

Basically most of the hallowpoint ammunition that I'm working with a lot of times acts like ball ammo to a degree, right, because the velocities and the thresholds for those things.

So but mostly for me, right when I start looking at defensive ammo and my carry guns mostly nine mil forty five stuff, it's going to be gold Dot or hstser my go to on the occasion if I've got enough of it that comes through my hands on.

The Winchester Ranger has been a favorite for years of mine.

The one twenty seven plus P plus P plus load was just a beast and a lot of my larger frame samiatos, and I love that round worked great for me.

It's been accurate, it's been reliable, it's been consistent.

So I've always been happy with any of those.

But I have to look for that balance of what the terminal threshold is like on these rounds based on the velocities, what does that look like?

And it does matter to a degree, especially the smaller the guns.

We go, but you start looking at G seventeen's thirty four diet sized guns, Eh, velocities are good.

The little guns is where it matters.

Yea.

The little guns is the big ticket, right, and a lot of people like to carry smaller guns forty three x's, forty eights, whatever the case is, you know, h three sixty fives, whatever the case.

At that point, right, it's it be who's them.

Most people are never going to dive deep enough into the subject to really care.

If they're going to buy whatever they find on the store shelf, whatever they can get.

It looks good, it works, and then they wonder if and when it happens, why the round only performed a certain specific way in this gun.

Well generally it's going to be because bullet construction velocity.

So you nailed it right there, Steve.

I mean a lot of people they don't know until the last minute by proven round a good round not.

They all fall with ball.

That's all that matters.

Read the internet.

Go ahead, Michael.

Well just like that latest what was that?

I can't try and remember the manufacturer, but that rip imo rest of p sand you know, yeah, you know by gimmicker you don't know until it gets used and why it fell so horribly, And velocity does matter.

It's a huge thing, and velocity is very sensitive in semiatus and there's a certain note in all that.

And that's once again probably why you don't go down and you find clock seventeen Ammo.

You know, that's it right there.

You guys nailed a lot of the defense round and hunting around why what we carry And then you get into the competition and training and you run more of a full metal jacket baldoze or otherwise, and once again that gets more into that repeatability that that competition, and that's huge.

Cool Steve, the Ammo manufacturer, guy.

Oh Man, we can get along, yeah, and.

We have and it's been such a they've been such good discussions.

Yeah, and Brian hit it on it earlier.

It's you know, auto's are AMO driven, so you have to have a certain amount of pressure for velocity what do you want to call it to get those things to operate.

And the smaller you go, the more picky they are, and the more particular those things have to be put together because all those things have to operate in a shorter amount.

Of time and have ports on them.

Now.

Yeah, yeah, and so I just shake my head and walk away from that mess.

Hold on just so that we could tame the menacing recoil of the nine millimeter had Yeah.

Yeah, it's like, you know, I like that that saying by was it how what's his name?

First name?

You know his name started to how Paul?

Paul Paul?

How?

You know, if you need a muzzle break on a AR fifteen, you need to reevaluate your life, you know, really, But revolvers, you know, we had to talk well on that forty five colt here just the other night last week.

You know, bullet shape, you don't need a whole lot of velocity, it's more of with a revolve where it's more like bullet shape, you know, I'm getting, you know, with my forty five colt off my garment chrono, it's around seven fifty and it's blowing.

It's blown through two blocks, you know, it's at around It's that flat point, you know, jacketed bullet.

And then you throw a wide cutter forty five, you know, long cold and or you get twenty or twenty three inches whatever because it plows more.

It's a flat face meeting flat face whatever.

And so you have that balance of bullet shape and velocity to get whatever penetration that you're looking for, and the same thing with hollow points.

I wonder if a lot of the companies me I go overboard with testing.

I'm probably I mean, I'm a no name, so I have to be above everybody else.

I feel like I have to be above everybody else, and I'm always second best.

But it is what it is.

But they tend to do one thing better than the other.

And I'm wondering if they really test them well, or like Doc Roberts has said, are they reading their jail blocks correctly on what they're seeing?

You know, the publishers saying no, they don't know they don't.

And so it's like with the xtps.

You know, the xtps have a different pattern of expand when like a gold Dotter HST does and they're going, well, that didn't expand, Yes it did, based on how that was designed.

It expands beautifully.

You just don't understand the engineering behind it on This is exactly how it was designed to expand.

And so you know, I've said it before and it's been on set on here by many people about hollow points is it's a delicate balance of velocity.

You know, you're running too fast, they open up too fast, they act like a parachute.

You don't get the penetration.

And then what Fish just talked about about the short guarled stuff, you might as well have a full metal jacket.

They're running too slow, they won't open up, they act like a you know, full metal jacket, or they won't get all the expansion that they're designed to do, and they get deeper penetrats.

And sometimes where people worried about, you know, over penetration.

And so what I look for is I want to go through that first jail block, and then I want to have him hit the brakes.

And so I'm looking at twenty inches.

If I can go through a block and a half, I'm pretty happy.

But I want expansion there too.

And when I did that DV load, that three fifty seven d B load, I was sending samples down to Darrow and it was all feel both him.

You know, this feels like, okay, I a little bit too much, not enough, whatever does all feel?

And I'm watching velocity and pressure.

So he says, okay, stop right there.

That's where I want it to be.

It's about nine thirty nine thirty five.

It says, now, make a defensive load that matches that, so it shoots the point of being at the same so you have a you know, training round and defensive round.

And I grew up with ballistics.

My I started.

I started loading back in the eighties when I first turned twenty one, and so I've been loading for a long time.

But all the gun writers and stuff, you know, three fifty seven you have to have it running at twelve hundred whatever, you know, higher velocity to get this thing to do it whatever.

And so I'm looking at that going nine thirty five.

You know, I didn't say them to Darryl.

He's just talking to me.

I'm just going, yeah, right, you know, all right, So I'm old school.

I use the ten percent ballistic JELG and mixed it up, calibrated with the temperature and the air gun.

First shot, I think I was about six feet away.

Boom, it punches almost a little ower a block about twenty inches, and then XTP expanded lots of fluke.

So I just blew the snot out of that block.

It's like every flipping time, I'm getting eighteen to twenty inches of penetration without meaning breathing hard.

And that recoil is really nice and it's operating.

So I had to sit down and ponder life, going what am I seeing here?

You know?

And I think everything was written about that's in my head.

It was when I grew up eighties ninety or you know, seventies even, you know seventies, eighties nineties technology.

We've now thirty years ahead now, you know everything else has come up with technology.

How come people with ballistics and bullet construction or whatever are still stuck back twenty thirty years ago?

You have to do this to get this?

And I'm going, no, you don't, okay.

So I just came out yesterday last yeah, yesterday was working on a short barrowed thirty eight special load.

I just presented it out on the social media yesterday because like Brian right, Brian's got that one thirty five gold dot, which was the standard you know for a short barrel revolver, but you can't find it anywhere.

And so when I went to revolve around up last year, I was talking with Bruce cart right, you know, and Chuck Haggard, Hey, you need to keep you can find something short barrow when forty, you know, to replace that thing because you can't find it.

If I can find gold dots, because they used to sell gold dots to us for loaders, but you can't find him anymore, I just those and reloaded me.

So Brian love him to death.

Brother.

I never wished I ever had no just kidding, So yeah, he sent me.

Brian sent me a couple of boxes that gold out short barrel and I ran him through the chrono got around eight sixty and I thought, okay, I'm gonna have that at my starting point of the XTP, and boom, XTP is getting eighteen twenty inches of penetration is expanding.

That's out of an inch seventeenth barrel.

That's out of excuse me, two inches my model ten two inch, and it's expanding.

And so I ran through my two and a half inch and then I backed it up to my six forty two, which instant seven eighths and it's all acting like it should act.

It's almost doing it exactly supposed to as the FBI wanted after Miami.

Right right, you know, well, I go back to the silvertip if I correct me if I'm wrong, but I think if if I remember all the readings I've done on that, is the silver tip actually perform as it was engineered.

And actually they just didn't figure out they needed more penetration, was all.

And so it wasn't you know, designed for that.

But as it sat, it did what it was supposed to do at the penetration it was designed engineered to do.

And so obviously we come up with more new standards now, but the construction of the bullets have changed for thirty years, and so I look at penetration first.

You know, I always tell people, you know, it was expansion, expansion, expansion.

I'm going to name one threat that was ever stop with expansion alone.

Ah Wait, you know and then he got on gun forms, which I detest, but I'm going there once in a while.

The argument with with defensive, well, defensive shootings, everybody talks about expansion, but hunting it's all about penetration.

I never heard, very rarely, very rarely do I hear about expansion of a bullet for a hunting round.

We go ahead, a.

Coin a phrase for your real quick Far more people have fallen to penetration than have ever fallen to over penetration.

So but it's funny, Steve, like Amo, Steve, that.

All this stuff that we're starting to rediscover, like we're rediscovering.

I go back and like I've been on this terror of reading linebaw Skeleton Keith.

They kind of.

Had it figured out, like you know, a big wadcutter and around one thousand feet per second pretty much kills everything on earth.

So it's and then you know, we get the bonus of modern constructed materials that we can kind of like engage a little predictability on the back end.

So and I said to a guy in a class one time, he was like, what Amo do you pick?

And I'm like, look, the best.

You can hope for is that your Ammo performs like ball ammo, Like that's the most predictable outcome because I've been to a hundreds of shootings and I've seen perfectly reloadable gold dots laying on the ground, and golden sabers and Winchester critical duty.

Critical duties with the red with the red.

Tips still in it, laying on the intact and I'm like, I know that went through a human being.

Yeah, So I think we.

Overthink some things and then we underthink others.

And you made a good point the other night on that forty five cult thing, say how many tombstones are there?

People in the in the you know, in the graveyard shot by what we would call cowboy loads right then?

That was the standard back then was those were the velocities they were looking at, and they did the job.

And so you know, you.

Need to qualified that a little bit though, because in that era of medicine, those dudes didn't die three weeks later, because pretty much every bullet wound prior to about nineteen ten was probably fatal.

I mean, you know, yeah, thank you, Gangreen, and you know, the lack of hydrogen peroxide or whatever, but yeah, I mean, the number of people that fell to a forty four to forty going seven hundred feet per second.

You know, I think sometimes we get wrapped around the axle, and I find the people that really get wrapped around the axle about, well.

What's my bullet going to do to a bad guy?

Are people that probably need to focus more on the marksmanship side anyway, pistol realms right in my gear to no end.

Spend zillions of dollars on gear.

But are they showing up to a training class right?

You know, I've heard that they wrapped themselves around the unicorn bullet.

But if your accuracy isn't there, you don't If you can't put the bullet where it needs to go, I don't care what bullet you have.

Placement and construction.

Yeah, and either way by by their way into precision or accuracy or you know, you've heard a lot of bad thinking these days.

You know, I heard the other day you don't need the training when your life depends on it.

It'll kick in.

What is the stupidest thing?

We all just became dumb?

You know, thank you for sharing that.

Now, Yeah, your life, you know, your.

Biggest headache, especially with pistol rounds, is there.

Which we call it.

I won't say in effectiveness, because they are effective.

They're allowsy at their job, but they do the job that they are not the greatest depending on placement.

You know, people wanting about timers, switches, pumps, all this stuff.

That's great, we understand that, but how long does it take and does it get to where it needs to take effect?

Because once we start figuring out, like where I live in Michigan, right, you know, farmer armor is a thing.

It's car hearts, it's multiple layers of clothing, sweatshirts, jackets, whatever, leather.

Goose down, you name it.

Right in n cold months, you have to have a round that is going to get through those barriers and then still getting enough depth, right without a lot of stretch or temporary permanent wound channel that everybody likes to talk about, to get to the things to make them stop doing it.

Wild bullets placed have an effect, but how soon and how well?

And Steve all had another layer to farmer armor still I'm borrowing that one.

But the number of shootings that I've seen where you know, as soon as bullets starts flying, people tend to turn sideways and run, and you figure flesh bone flesh flesh bone pump station now armor that times two.

You can you know, you get a bladed shot on a on a person, it can really I've seen the hotness in police duty rounds lodge under the skin in somebody's chest cavity and they are like put a band aid on it and book them in jail like so.

And that was one of the things.

Like with the FBI shooting.

I mean that dude had a couple of fatal injuries, but they just weren't.

Quite fatal fast enough.

And I've had the pleasure of having dinner a couple of times with Ed Morales and the one strike, the one thing that strikes me is when he's talking about finishing the fights and I knew I had to use my sites because I knew I had to make these count.

And I'm like, hm, well, let's back that up a little bit.

It took all of that chaos for for for his mind to kick in too.

I've got you, I've got to access the sites.

And that's not a slight on head.

I mean, think about the FBI training of the era and things like that, but but when it really counted, he got on his sites, getting more precise on him, was the key.

Yeah, more precise on the sites.

Right, that was that was a big thing, right, absolutely.

You know we can we can date this back, right if we go back to the eighties when most of us were kids still reading guns in the AMMO and whatever magazines that we got our hands at the time.

Right, we had, I mean we had all the rounds, right, we had silver tips, we had Federal nyclad, which I still have something around.

We had all these things, right, and then we had hydro shocks.

Well, you forgot glazer safety slug.

I won't even get into glazers, but yeah, right, and thunder zapps.

But his dad had some for sale.

Yeah I wound those in the shots.

Yeah, but we wound a six pack of them in the shot.

But when we talk about them, man, it was a very real thing.

Everybody was touting around failure because of the hydro shock, because of the cavity was stilling full material and not reaching depth penetration, right, which is a which is a very big one.

So then what did we have.

I may have it reversed, I think I haven't reversed.

We had the one fifteen bpl E from Federal, the nine mil one to fifteen plus p plus that was basically thirty eight super at that point, right hitting around what was like twelve hundred thirteen hundred feet per second.

You know, my numbers may be skewed a little bit because it's been so long since I've seen any of that on the shelves, but it's still around.

It's still a round that is even issued to this day.

That's some organizations, and I'm like, that's crazy.

I'm like, why do it still crushes souls and it still penetrates?

And I'm like, can't.

Argue with that.

You know, I' teen thousand years later and you know, it's still one of those effective rounds that have kind of stood the test of time, but I think gone to the wayside because of recoil in that nine millimeters super magnum that it is.

But this was the thing, right we're back to.

It was penetration.

Getting rounds to defeat barriers.

If it wasn't glass or other intermediate stuff, construction, wallboard, whatever the case.

We needed a round that was going to drive through and penetrate deeply.

Crazy.

But over penetration is bad because you could go through and kill somebody because you used to read that in the magazines all the time with some famous kun writers.

Yeah, oh boy, I love you know.

One of my deerst ends its way Dobbs, and he teaches a class that's it's called rule four pistol, like be aware of your target, what's beyond it, right, And the whole crux of the class is the bad guy is your backstop, and that's the only acceptable backstop stop.

So some type of ballistic background barrier.

The more.

Urgent issue is getting your shots, you know.

I think missing is the is the problem with over penetration.

You're not hitting the shots, you know, And I don't know.

I'm not I'm not you know, I'm just an example of one.

Been around fifty sixty shootings.

I don't other than a peripheral shot, you know, on the side of the of the of the love muffin, you know, whatever, the fat whatever role coming off whatever.

But if it's a solid shot, I have not in all you know.

Again, i'mn example of one.

I've not seen over penetration.

I've not seen it exit other than if it's a peripheral shot or something on a real narrow spot you know, where there's not enough meat there to stop it.

If you get a solid torso hit law enforcement wise, even some civilian shootings I've been around.

If it's a solid torso, I've not seen it exit and I don't you know, I don't know what the percentage is.

Is there something out there I've.

Not read it.

People would be surprised how well even the human head and all that mushy stuff and it retains projectiles.

Yeah, I can confirm mm hmm.

It goes like this and like this, and it's all encased by this thing called a skull plane.

It's crazy.

Sometimes anybody have any numbers on over penetrated rounds during shootings.

I don't.

I don't think it's And the other thing is I wonder how much is attributed to a miss all that round, that round over penetrated and hit a bystander or hit a dollar it was.

It was not a solid hit.

You had a preffer on the side and it just went in you know, skin in skin out or fat in fat whatever it was.

It wasn't a torsal hit.

Yeah.

I often ponder how many times they look at it shooting and go, well, you kind of wounded the neighbor and it was probably the one you sent through this dude's you know, gibblets down here.

So it's a hit, but it's like the one that goes to the dude's baggy jacket sweatshirt and catches sweatshirt.

It's considered a hit, but it still passes through.

You know.

There's so many variables in this equation.

But I think the general gist, right is what does.

Your ammo do?

You know, most guys won't in the time or money to do any scientific research, right, I mean, they might go shoot some water jugs.

Well that's not really scientific, right, it's cheap.

I mean, you know, gives you an idea.

They won't go out and actually shoot some pork roast or a shoulder or whatever it is, or ballistic gel.

Right, there's always something right that's like, Okay, we get it.

It's cool, it's explosive, the blue of a pumpkin.

That's amazing.

I get it.

It's not the same thing, but it's great for the CCW class CPL class where everybody's like, oh my god, that's like crazy.

I'm like, you have all three eighty holo points.

They'll do it too.

Settle down, you know.

So it's I mean really, it's up to the end users.

A lot of that's that I feel, you know, when people ask me about you know what AMMO they should choose because they just got their gun or whatever, it isn't like I tell them the same thing, Like, you know what, you can't go wrong with an HST, you can't go wrong with a gold dot, you can't go wrong with any of these two three major rounds that are employed by law enforcement universally across the United States of America.

And that's usually a really good starting point.

Just find the one twenty one that shoots the most accurate in your gun and go about your day.

Stop overthinking little itty bitty pieces and leave that up to us because we just learned on this stuff because it's true.

Yeah yeah, but I'm just going to say, leave that to me for all this testing I do from my AMA before I put it out that, Yeah, leave it to me.

I'll get it exactly.

That's seriously what it is.

People overthink it one hundred percent and everybody, but it does I mean, it does matter.

I suppose when you get into long range and you get into position precision shooting or IDPA USPSA, you know you want more consistency.

But at the end of the day, if it feeds, what's the at a manufacturer get upset.

We had shared some information about one of his guns and the basic need we want this thing to feed chamber and go boom regardless where it hits.

Is that not the number one rule when you're dealing with any gun is just chamber the round and go boom.

And it didn't even do that, you know.

And but at the end of the day, will that round chamber and you when you're looking for an ammo or your need to figure out what works with your gun, you need to go test it, and you need to go to the range.

And I understand the one fifteen is the more inexpensive, So we train or shoot at the range with one fifteen because it's readily available.

You'll find it's the most inexpensive because it has the most the rare the least amount of rare earth material, the least amount of metals, and so typically one fifteen is pretty affordable.

And then you get into the one twenty fours.

A lot of law enforcement use one twenty fours plus plus ps whatever, And then you get into one forty seven's but at the end of the day.

And you guys already touched on your train and your defense, so you want something the same for whatever you use as a defensive round to what you train.

And there's companies that do it.

Federal does it, Cecee, I do it.

You know your goal dot your spears.

You know you can have a full metal jacket and a hall of point that actually have the same geometry for your feed ramp and ballistical efficiency, and we'll function the same in your gun.

So you can go to the range with one am and then train with the rest.

But I want to story away from people believing the common misconception use what the military use, or use what the local law enforcement use, or use what all the law enforcement use.

That's not necessarily true in some senses.

And you guys can correct me on that.

And I'm here to get educated as much as anyone else.

But you know they have different criteria, and they're four and a half inch barrel or five inch barrel may not agree with your four or three and three quarter barrel or your inch and seven eighths.

I mean away from revolvers.

Most people are let's say, carrying a semi auto.

Now I carry a jyframe.

You know, it's the most easiest one to run with.

But at the same time you were talking penetration and expansion.

That bullet may not function in your three in a quarter or four in a quarter, that it may not hit those velocities you need, or may not do its job, so you need to definitely test.

Yeah.

I found that, you know, like people think, you know, I don't know people really think that, but I suppose some do about that.

You know, law enforcement.

Law enforcement people are into guns and they know everything about guns and blah blah blah.

And I found yeah, yeah, no, I've found some agencies running some of this oddball ammo that is is just snake oil that impact what's that.

G nine G nine tumble unimpact.

Yeah, there's some agencies over and Idaho.

I guess they're running that stuff.

I'm just going who who who chose that?

By DPS in Texas?

Approved by YouTube?

Is that by DPS in Texas?

It's one of their improvement arounds slash I heard.

Yeah, Well that brings us to a point that we're all as consumers being fed a bunch of bowl sometimes we really are.

And so just like that RIPMO, you know, it looks cool and at the end of the day, does it function?

And sometimes we get just fed a bunch of bowl.

I myself appreciate Steve and I Desert Cartridge and you Steve Fisher, right he mentioned earlier about the struggles of ammal manufacturers.

Right now, that's huge.

But as some of these rare metals, because we've cut out mining, we've cut out oils, we've cut out we can't make primers in the US.

Shoot, you can't have a tobacco farm.

Okay, to bring that up, but unless your grandfathered in, try to get a tobacco likes it.

So I can only imagine what it is to do a powder.

And we've outprocessed all this, you know.

Shoot, we sold our plutonium or uranium.

We've outprocessed this.

You know.

That's horrible, and we demonize it.

So I can understand as these components be more and more difficult to get, you know, and I hype and hey, get these American manufacturers, I desert others are going to struggle to get these components.

We've seen it before.

We're supervel.

Ammo runs out of you know, we run out of components.

US reloaders are running out of components, you know, and that's going to be very difficult.

It's they've strong armed us.

Shoot, they were saying for years.

If they can't take their guns, though, just take our AMMO.

Right, it's it's ouch.

I will tell you something about like some of the more unique AMMO I'll call it unique, different book construction, bimetal stuff, all of it.

You know, what are we what are we currently calling it?

Oh shit, I can't damn name right now.

But anyway, like some of the stuff that I will carry in some of my smaller guns, right because I've seen what the penetration looks like.

And I think his.

Phone died and he's dead.

Well, I was going to but I was going to say, you know, on that l EAMO.

So I came from an agency that nine millimeter came in one flavor one and I saw it do good stuff.

And then like one American eagle, I got Chuck Haggard spooled up on that it's like match AMMO of a g Gen five glock, and he jail tested it and was like, I'd carry that in black Bear Country Like that stuff will do thirty inches and hit the berm with authority.

That truncated flat point.

But all that to say, I went through an era in law enforcement before bonded amo became a thing, and the AMMO companies were kind of in this race of like, okay, ours is the best, well ours is and this is right on the heels of the old hydro shock with the stem in the center of the core and all that, oh yeah, and silver tip.

They were starting to really drive towards a known quantity of performance.

Well, all of a sudden, like I start noticing things like shootings that should have been fatal.

Weren't, and I'm like, huh, this is interesting.

So I go get the latest, greatest and running across a krano and my eyes op.

I was like, oh, that's probably a big part of it.

And right around the time some people caught onto it that had some stroke to you know, AMMO went back to a certain manufacturer.

And another Ammo showed up.

But these things right here, they're five hundred bucks.

Now you can find them for about five hundred bucks.

And the amount of information you can get out of one of these And I shot over the old windscreen chronos for years the new garment, like I can't find an equal to it.

For the price point.

And I haven't tried because I don't need to.

This will save you tons.

Of headache, especially if you're a handloader.

It'll save you tons of headache.

But the other thing is with your modern defensive AMMO, sometimes.

You get a you get a turn box, right like you get a box.

That I don't know it just didn't meet mustard, or your gun doesn't like it, or your barrel cylinder gap doesn't like it something.

So these things can be a real lifesaver.

And if you're a long distance shooter hunter like I live by one of these.

So if you're not testing your guessing.

And I'll tell you this is a plug for ransom but and wilderness.

I have a wilderness backpack and the ransom rest fits in the or the multi col rest fits in the in the bottom, I can put a tripod folded up inside of it.

I've got a skinter sites bag for the for the Krono and I can go to there.

I can go to an indoor range and be set up in five minutes, get all the data I want to get, and and and then I don't have to.

Get degled desert eagled with the rest of the crowd.

So so you know, if you're gonna if you're going to be a student of the gun, at some point you have to be a student of the AMMO and you have to start diving into some of those rabbit holes.

And right now I'm on a single action kick and I'm I'm back into hunting again, and I'm finding that what we knew seventy years ago there in that realm hasn't changed much.

And I like to shoot pigs, and pigs are a great test media for you know what your bullet's going to do to a farmer, arm or person like It's it's a pretty close media.

Deer human beings in shorts and t shirts are our bipedal white tailed deer.

So anything that I think would work well in that arena works pretty good in the other one too.

So but anyway, I mean, I could go off down the rabbit hole of hunting.

I just it's funny.

Steve was talking about when Darryl and I partnered up.

He was doing a lot of work on that load and Darryl was going, oh, that one's a little too hot, that one's I didn't feel right, And Darryl's doing it by feel and then when we partnered up, I'm like, I need to Kronto that.

I really want to see what that's all about.

And I'm like, oh, he hit all the numbers that I would shoot for if that was the goal that I had, which is, you know, keep a reasonably heavy bullet somewhere around one thousand feet per second.

And consequently, Darryl like has hands that are a chronograph.

I guess his arthritis is calibrated sensitivity.

Yeah, yes, because he was.

He identified differences in AMMO that were like thirty to forty feet per second just on feel, and I'm going, I can't tell much difference, you know.

So yeah, he did that with a click, kind of like a Torquereage.

What's a forty four special too.

It's like, go man, whatever, But he gets it where he wants it for the for the velocity.

And then I jailed tested and it's like, man, this is something wrong with you.

Right, So I got two sub sub topics to ponder.

We're going to take a quick little break, Steve Amo.

Steve, I want to talk about XTP a little bit, comparing it to the mainstream hsts and the gold dots, and then also what bullets actually are doing, like what that G nine is doing and what physically cannot happen.

And then also we can get into the hunting calibers or the ad that hunting rounds getting into rifles getting into defensive rifle.

But I'm going to be running some ads here just in a second.

The middle ad is narrated by my AI assistant, so this will be interesting.

So you guys have one minute and thirty eight seconds to get a refilled go to the bathroom or whatever, and then as soon as it's over, we'll be right back.

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So that AI dude, I'll probably have him on as a panelist in the month.

So there's a medical episode that I'm planning out and I'm going to be using him as a reference tool, and he and I have discussed this.

He's on board.

So it's really really cool to have these kind of tools available.

So going back to our topics.

Early in my career in law enforcement, hollow points were the solution.

I wanted that expansion because it's all about the expansion.

And then the more I get into this, the more I study, the more I learn, and the more I have these good conversations with people like Gary Roberts, Steve Shields, Chuck Haggard, Darryl Bulky, Brian with a Y, Steve Fisher, so many good sources of information have helped me understand things better, to realize, you know, that expansion, it's controlling your penetration and that's it's amazing the way it works.

And then we have these xtps which they don't have this huge blossom effect, but they have this still.

They have this controlled penetration through this velocity through the I can't think of the right word, it's squishing essentially, and I don't remember which of you guys said it.

But it expands just at the last minute, it goes nicely and then just at the last minute expands, slows down, stops and does its job.

And I know, Steve, you've been talking about them and that you actively use them on purpose because they did do what you want.

So Steve Shields, I mean, I'll be honest with you.

I mean, if there was a if they were able to get ahold of hsts for a handbolder all over that heartbeat, you know, go I still think you know, I mean, obviously I want to sell my AMMO, but I'm not too stupid to go.

And hey, you know, I mean I carried hsts and gold dots in my career.

Yeh been through a lot of ballistic tests that Federal and Spirit put on and witness their stuff and pull bullets out of people and going, you know, this is what I'm seeing, or I see bullets putting pulled out of people, going, that's not what I'm seeing, you know here versus what is being written about again?

Example of one, It's not everything, you know, A little piece of the slice of the pie, very narrow, but I know put my stuff on that.

But getting back to xtps, Darrow was the one that said that, which is true.

If you look at an XTP high speed camera going to jail block, it will get penetration quite a ways before the expansion starts opening up.

And it does not expand the same way as an H as an HS to your gold dot, I call it more like a crush expansion.

It differs in fact, when you get one of the boxes which I could grab in the other room, my low room.

I'm here at the shop as well.

I'm with you, Mike anyway, yeah, anyway, it says right in the box of the you know XTP boxes a handloader would get.

I get them in mass quantity, huge bins of the things.

But defensive you know, l E.

Hunting round.

It's it's that's the only round that's only bullet projectile I know of that has all three on there.

You know, it's usually defensive round or whatever round whatever, But it's not all three.

Uh.

Xtps ten more often than not to hold their their weight to about anything.

But the expansion isn't really huge when it does expand, but it has just enough parachute where it's going to do the thing.

But penetration is where it's at.

And you talk to people out here in the forums in the street about handgun you know, it's all about expansion.

And so it's like again I mentioned earlier, I put stuff on some of the Facebook pages.

In fact, Matt, I think you witnessed it.

You know, well that didn't expand so yeah, it expanded as an XTLP expand understand the engineering behind it.

It's meant different.

It's you know, it's a deep penetrator.

That's how it is designed to do deep penetrate first and then throw the brakes on and Daryl hit it first.

I wanted to blow a block and then throw the parachute, and that's what they do.

But you have to get them in their power band.

And that's the other thing about any type of hollow point is that you have to get them in their power band.

Again, if you're run too fast, they open up too fast, act like a parachute, don't get the penetration.

And so xtps have a power band.

You know.

I was talking with Giles Stock who used to work for Hornity.

He turned me on to a retired Hornity engineer.

Was able to talk with him, and you put him in their power band and every caliber, even though the box says I think the box says seven hundred to don't call me seven hundred and twelve hundred.

I think is their power band whatever it is.

Maybe Brian can correct me on that one, but I think it's right in there.

It's like on the box it says like seven hundred to twelve hundreds or whatever.

And everyone one of the xdps has its own kind of little power band.

So like the thirty two's, you know, people going, well, you can't get a thirty two, Yeah I can.

I talked to the engineer thirty two.

Put it in the upper eight hundreds, mid eight hundreds.

It's going to do its thing, and bam, I put my my thirty two magnum in the upper eight hundreds, mid eight hundreds.

Boom is doing every everything you wanted to do.

Now, how many shootings have you had with it?

Zero?

You know, I don't know, but you know, listening, you know, talking again meeting doctor Roberts years ago and then listen here recently about stuff.

It's like, if you can get it to go through four layers of denim and do what it's gonna you know, whatever, it's pretty much gonna do what it's gonna do on the street.

I'm a little bit different with the four layers of denim thing.

I'm not in the you know this, I'm gonna I'm gonna steal that thing too.

Fish.

It's like you know the farmer's armor thing.

That's cool, man.

But what I've seen in basic jail, if you put you know, put it through basic jail.

I see that in a shooting.

If it's gonna penetrate whatever, get average whatever, if it's gonna expand in not clear ballistic jail, but actually the ten percent organs the FBI stuff properly calibrated.

I would say of the shootings that I witnessed pulling bullets out, probably ninety eight perc perform as the jail test did a few failures here and there, but they have the power band and the xtps tend to hold their weight and they're a deep penetrated before they start expanding out.

And you won't get that with a lot of other.

Holo points.

Most of the holow points have a control expansion.

They'll go as they go.

It's like they expand as they end up going through the block where XTP is and then all of a sudden, the parachute comes out there.

They're pretty Yeah, they're dead nuts acting because they are.

They are.

They're one of the more yeah, accurate, handloaded bullets you can find.

And for those it is pretty tough.

It takes a little bit to open up that deal.

Like in the power band, but every caliber of XTP has a slightly different power band.

Like I said, the thirty two's eight hundreds mids.

You can get it to go.

You get up in the bigger bores forty four in that area.

It likes.

It likes the nine hundreds.

The loves the nine hundreds, and it.

Feeds right chambers and Semiauto's big bores.

Whatever it performs well.

I got tuned into it.

On ten milimeter.

I was building ten millimeters nineteen eleven's back in the early OS, mainly for my dad and some of his friends.

And I built a six inch ten milimeter with like a Caspian Rollo site patridge brount.

I mean, it's it's still around.

I look, but.

I put a cart ramped barrel in it and I go sand bag it at fifty yards and it shot like an inch and three quarter at fifty yards with an XTP over ten grains of shotgun powder.

I mean it was over eight x.

So it threw a massive fireball and I was like, holy crap.

I was just trying to function test the gun, and I thought, well, since i'm here, I'll just throw a target up and see what it does.

And I was like, oh my gosh.

And then it was like one of the least load sensitive bullets that I ever worked with in ten milimeter, and it was one hundred and eighty and two hundred grain bullets.

It didn't matter if I oh yeah, it didn't matter.

If I pushed them fast or if I pushed him moderate.

They were all accurate.

And a buddy of mine that was a engineer and machinist, he's like, well, I had to put it on a concentricity gauge.

Yeah, sure, yeah, And I was.

I was amazed at how concentric they were compared to the other stuff that was out there, which I think lent a lot to the accuracy.

But some of the ten millimeters I tested polymers, they're not so happy.

So that's interesting.

With that six inch, that inch and a half at fifty, going back to that metal frame gun, that barrel length, you know, once again, that bullet that you choose, are the MoU choose?

Really?

You know that barrel length and we're going to segue eventually into rifles, but you know, and that's very critical when you get into rifles because after so long, you're just now you're slowing down.

The velocity, right, are you not?

And we can talk about that.

But that XTP stuff's fabulous.

That I built my dad a five inch gun that was kind of a match to the.

Six inch for a friend of his, and.

He went deer season one year and Oklahoma, if you get a lifetime, you get like five.

Dough tags a year.

And I hear like three shots in the woods.

I'm like, what the heck is he doing?

And he's like, I go over there, and he goes, go go get the truck, like I got.

Meat for the whole year.

And I said, what were you shooting?

Man?

He goes he holds up his five inch Caspian that I've put together the barrel and those it was one hundred and eighty grain xtps at like twelve hundred and just anchor and deer.

He's like, ah, I need you to put a fiber optic front side in this.

I can't see the black on black anymore, you know, but it was still ever since then, and this is like two thousand and four five.

I was like, I had a high admiration to the XTP bullet.

So when Daryl was showing me Steve's AMMO when we first partnered up, I was like, Oh, well, if he keeps the if he keeps it in the power band, that's a fantastic bullet.

So I can tell you firsthand what happens when you do not with a ten milimeter, when you like, when you do not keep it withinside certain velocities, I can tell you exactly what happens whittail hunting on deer with a ten milimeter.

That is my go to hunting gun in the past decade.

Really, Oh woeah yeah, so over a pretty stiff charge of double a seven all right, with a one eighty xtpt out of a five inch Chambers gun.

Oh, the Chambers built a specific ten milimeter for me solely for hunting on pure accuracy, right, and the.

Gun is just amazing.

I had a dough come in at forty five yards averaging Michigan you know, two year old one hundred and twenty pounder maybe forty yards.

Oh yeah, exactly, bags deer, dot, squeeze, press, bang, everything erupts in the field.

I'm like, yeah, where's the deer.

This is supposed to happen right.

Three days later.

Three days later, the amish on the farm next to me killed the same deer.

Oh oh, so I.

Got to get a lookxie at that, and literally it was like fragmentary grenade hit the deer and exploded.

Because I figured it out when I actually ran back and kind of checked the chrono.

Dad, it was like, just shy a fourteen hundred second Yeah, oh it was a scream road seven.

Oh yeah, dude, it was it was.

It was a charge.

I was like, well, that's that's bad.

Don't do that again.

So yeah, yeah, shoot that ten grain load ten grain, eight hundred x old.

Looks like corn flakes, you know.

Yeah.

Uh.

I used to shoot that at our pistol range.

We had a two hundred yard rifle range, and I would pick bowling pins off the rifle range with that XTP level at two hundred yeah, and guys would go, what are.

You shooting there?

Forty five?

I'm like, that's the only millimeter that matters.

Yeah, yeah, Sam.

Yeah, you know, and I hate to jump in, but that does bring us to that XTP as far as repeatability, because we keep talking about the repeatability.

You're shooting out there at the distance, and that's where I come in because that's the beauty of what I like to do is check the repeatability at distances, and then we lead into doll in our sites.

You know, we if you watched in any of my videos lately, we actually have one even at twenty five yards where that point of impact is changing quite a bit depending on the load, even out of handload, I mean a handgun, or that point of impact is changing.

There's a lot of times when we shoot a metal frame gun, like let's I hate to throw names out there guns, but like a Wilson combat.

Have a video of a Wilson combat at gun side academy.

Didn't matter what I fed through that gun, that Wilson Combat's holding three quarter to one inch hole at fifteen yards.

At twenty five it grew and shrank depending on but the point of impact stayed pretty consistently.

The point of impact really only started shifting out to fifty yards.

And so sometimes us as handguns, I understand some people getting point of impacts not a bit deal.

Mark can talk about that.

Most guns, you know, defenses from one arm's length to three arms length away.

But and when you're running a good, great gun the point of impact like Wilson Combat, we didn't get a whole lot of shift out of and it ran and fed.

I hate the term runs and feeds everything.

I really hate that term.

I'm sorry because just because it runs and feeds everything doesn't mean it's going to be hitting the.

Same thing down range.

We're talking about the thing that comes out, the thing that hits the thing, you know, in the simplest terms, and we get very complicated about you know, and the.

People at home, well, it melts my brain.

You know.

Penetration is huge.

Yes, I'm all about that, But at the same time we get concerned about barrel pressures or otherwise, and how are you going to test that at home?

Diyatt yourself at home?

You know, here at least you can diyat yourself out of the Master series hand gunner Brian using the multical you can diy yourself go to the range.

Brian mentioned number one thing, the chronograph.

Steve mentioned the ballistic Your other thing is that point of impact, so that multiical.

Those are three tools for the trade when you go to the range, when you're dying in in your amma, when you're doing a hunting round.

And Matt said, we're going to get into rifles here here in a minute and talk about hunting rounds and rifles.

When you get into that, most people understand a rifle bin trust you know, you'll be in trusted, tripod it, sand bag it, or otherwise try to steady it up.

In our magazine had an article not that long ago, and so they'll they won't give soul credit to ransom rest, But clearly since the invention of a ransom rifle binterest in the hand gun rest a repeatable way to test these handguns and rifles.

Guns and AMMO have inherently gotten more accurate in the last fifty years, and I think we see that us as this panel.

We see that guns and ammo have inherently gotten more accurate.

We can chalk it up to manufacturing practices, chalk it up to CE and ce's chalk it up to our knowledges.

But at the same time, we need a repeatable way to test this achronograph.

A ballistic gel a ransom us.

You need a way to stable it.

And guns and AMMO have inherently gotten more accurate since the invention of the beinterest.

We all know that.

So I think that's very critical when deciding, And this whole discussion was deciding AMMO for your gun.

There is no block AMMO, there is no Smith Wesson, M and P.

You can't go down just by revolver AMMO.

You know, well, Hi, desert will sells you, you know, But at the at the same time, you know, it just really doesn't exist.

And your AMMO could Your gun could be picky.

Polymers are really picky.

Some No, barrels are the same.

You're in a rifle world and guns are really the same.

You guys are the hunters.

Yeah.

I get that on from people using my AMMO because I had a list, the list of the velocities preach round and I'll get feedback going, hey, I tested your AMMO.

I'm not getting the same velocity.

Well you know what, First of all, what's the temperature and altitude?

Yeah?

But I okay, please people, I like to have this this public service announcement.

Please right, Okay, So altitude were really affected.

I'm at about twenty three hundred.

I think, Brian, you're at what eleven?

I'm going to right around one thousand eight.

Right around a thousand and am and Brian will do my same, Amma.

We're about what fifty to sixty feet difference in velocity, right, I think in there somewhere on the average.

Okay, So then we're looking at revolvers, So Brian can back me up on this one as well, and so you can mark with revolver guys here right.

So you got the cylinder throats, you got the gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone, you got the cone itself, and you got to burrow.

You got variables here that even between the same models a gun, you're going to have variable velocity coming out of them guns.

You to test your stuff, and I'll give Fricky the credit on the force for cracking the forcing the cylinder gap code with two guns, identical guns.

One had like three thousands more cylinder gap than the other and we were seeing like consistently what twenty thirty feet per second difference?

Probably?

Wow?

Yeah, if I can jump in on this one.

I tested ten different model six forty twos, all with one Stavid intro burial, all the same ammunition, and we had a variety of velocities forty feet per second different in velocities between those ten revolvers.

Some were closed, some were far.

We also had it.

Kevin McPherson from the Revolver Dice tested the same loads.

I tested at the same mouth too.

I'm at fifty one hundred feet and his velocities were a lot lower.

And while he hasn't measured cylinder gap, I'm going to bet his is somewhere.

It's a very warn six forty two.

Somewhere in the area, probably about zero point one zero, which is right at the maximum.

There's what you have.

But he was going to get in six hundred and fifteen feet per second from federal match, and that's not what.

I've seen Federal match doing anything.

That's what I've got.

So his cylinder is a lot bigger than most of them.

So I don't think it will.

Get I get over well over one hundred feet a second from people down at sea level even to where I'm at at twenty three hundred.

Yeah, I don't think people take into a lot of consideration, right.

It's there's so many variables.

The precision guys understand this the PRS crowds with the rifles.

But temperatures.

Is your AMMO been sitting in the sun?

Is your ama the sun?

Right?

You take it to the range.

Guys, throw it in the AMMO can, their metal ammo can.

It's sitting out in the sun.

It's ninety degrees out and they're wondering why everything has changed again, right, I'm like right, and then do the same thing at ten thousand feet Like, I got news for you, bro, Sammy speck is a thing for a reason.

But again, right, I digress on that.

It's you know, one of the other bullets that we failed to mention besides a Sierra's in pistols.

Oh yeah, absolutely, like man Sierra bullets and a handgun.

Oh my god, are they an accurate accurate round as well, especially in the autos.

But I'll give credit to this, and I hate to say it, but SIG's AMMO, their factory AMMO, came above all the numbers in every one of my guns that I've shot it through.

In their pistol, especially their ten mill load.

They're ten mil loading, says in a box like twelve fifty.

I shot it out of five different government model guns from colts Chambers Nighthawk, you name it, Dave Lobbert custom gun, and every one of them hit around twelve seventy four to twelve seventy five over at the Chrono.

YEA interesting, and I was like, whoa up here?

It was actually pretty close up in Mark Mark's neck of the woods and my eye up here, you know, we were getting pretty close, which is odd because some velocities aren't close.

You know, you were saying forty to fifty you're you're expecting that change.

They did a wild temperature.

Depending on if I'm testing in the you know, bearing Sun of August or you know.

There's a particular AMMO company out there.

I won't mention them.

They're very mainstream that I got in on one of the first like pre production for sixty XBRS smith X frames.

And when I fire, when I bought my first chronograph, I went, why am I not just shooting four fifty four console because it's half the price and I get a heavier bullet moving like one hundred feet per second slower.

And I went and looked at that Ammo now and I don't know what's changed in the last twenty years, but the box of AMMO does not claim the same velocity that it did twenty years ago.

People have to remember to right, A lot of manufacturers are running vented test parials, right, So that's the thing, right, they get these barrels in the slide, You get a box of AMMA that says this much, but your revolver, that's your four inch gun, six inch gun.

And then you realize you're running like a twelve to sixteen inch test barrel, vent in test barrel for safety protocols with no gap.

Try it, got it, no gap?

Try a twenty inch test barrel.

After I got behind the scenes on that and I went, yeah, well you sobs like the reason.

I bought this gun.

You said this, and it doesn't need to come close.

Listen, I did.

I did the same thing when the four eighty came out in Ruger.

Yeah, I wonder why I wrist and arms are so beat up.

But you know, I literally coming from a dude that shot a lot of big boarhand gun, right.

I had forty five, I had a Thompson Center contender collection that was.

Amazing, but oh and shooting big boards.

And then when I got into the four fifty four for sixty World and four eighty.

I was like, nope, never again, put it away.

I don't need it for shoot what I'm shooting.

I like it.

It's great.

Get rid of them all.

And I went back to what I would consider mainstream normal calibers.

Right even to this day, my deer.

Hunting revolver, besides my Model twenty nine six inch gun is a six inch six eighty six.

That that gun I have killed numerous white tails because I know the limits right for me, it's fifty yards and in with that pistol, because.

That's just what I'd choose at the irons because I'm old, because.

I haven't dotted that gun yet, right, But everything else I have, all my ten mil stuff is all dotted guns.

And you know, again, while we're never quote unquote going backwards in technology, still viable, absolutely one hundred percent.

But I think like if I were to pick anything like mainstream rounds for hunting use and most other things right now, it would be xtps and it would be that cerra of V Crown, that that V Crown has done some serious damage on white tails for me at the numbers, it's cooking.

Uh, the cool thing.

It's another side note, but Steve Shields and I am O Steve Ye.

We're the great thing about the relationships we've built with a lot of the people, even on this panel, like you know, Mike and Mark Frickey and Steve is like with a phone call or a text message, we're making a direct impact on the outcome of things in the future, which that for me, that's been very new because being in the law enforcement like confines going hey man, our pistol amo sucks.

Okay, well order the next million rounds we order, we'll do something different, whereas with Steve it's like, hey man, I'm getting these results, and he'll he'll text me and go, well, I'm getting these results.

Why are we getting different results?

Oh well, you're thirteen hundred feet above me.

Hey, where are you setting your krono?

What distance are you and which leads me to another point.

Chronographs windscreen kronos.

Throw them in the trash by a garment.

When you set up the garment, don't have anything between you and fifteen yards when you shoot.

Pass that this episode was brought to you by garment.

I really want to I need a new fort I had I was shooting to the sky screens, I wasn't getting some of the shots weren't registering.

I was getting widespread variations of velocity.

And I'm just going to see what I'm doing my test loads, working up loads.

I'm actually hand tricking the powder in there, so I know the powder shot to shot to shot is dead nuts charge wise.

And so I'm getting all this stuff.

And finally I said, screw it, get a get a get a garment.

So I'm going to get a garment, and then you know, I have all my I got a whiteboard in my load room in here, and it's got all my all my you know, secret urban spices loaded us, get them all my loads and whatever.

And I had to go through all my loads and re chronole them because again people because especially when Brian went got his garment, but I think before I did, he goes, dude, man, your your stuff is not what you're saying here.

It's like your dad.

You so got rid of that freaking skyscreen went to the garment.

I do my velocity test independent of my accuracy stuff or jail block tests, so I get that way, I'm not going through trying to do two things at one time and skewing results because the garment is too close to the jail block, or it's off reading on something, getting a skewed reading.

Whatever.

I do one thing at a time and then shift to the next.

I do velocity, I do accuracy, and I do jail testing.

And man, that that garment has I had.

Like I said, it was frustrating, but now it's it's cool because all information to get from it.

But I had to go through every single load I had and had to retune my loads to get the lost you'll want to know.

But that was a cool thing though, with like you and I getting to know each other and you know, revolve around up was.

I'd get a little sample pack of AMMO and I'd go, man, I'm getting this and he go, no, no, I can't be that ain't right.

And I go, oh, I'm shooting it over a garment.

Well I'm shooting through windscreens.

So I'm shooting this, and so Steve and I just in text messages.

Next thing, you know, Now I order a box of AMMO from Steve.

I got like an eight SD and it shoots an inch at twenty five yards and I'm going in the velocities Like now that we communicate a lot they've gone from one hundred and fifty feet per second to like twenty, you know, like at the difference of elevation.

But the other pro tip I'll give you, Matt on the garment, I need a new four tricks with the with applied ballistic software.

I need that one.

Just wait, just just wait till next year, wait to see what's coming.

Okay, so I need the next year's model of whatever's coming.

But the cool thing about it, like I was able.

To track some shortcomings with the Garman just by doing like, Okay, I'm gonna put the target at fourteen yards and shoot through cardboard, shoot through.

Paper, and I would get all these wild variances.

And I was like, yeah, so now I just like, first five rounds out of the gun at the range, I don't even put a target up.

I just burned all the way.

Yeah and uh and and I still have people like you do what you just fire five rounds into the burns like nom dumb first and last man dumb first and last.

Yeah.

But but Steve and I, like you know, Darryl and his his like uh, his chronograph hands.

That got a long way.

And then Darryl Darryl and I joined forces in it, and he's like, I'm sorry, Steve, but Brian has a propeller on his hat and occasionally you'll feel the downdraft, so.

I'm I hate to jump in, and I'm with you on the chrono.

And it surprised me.

About the skyscreen because shooting through the little triangle.

I plug companies like Competition Electronics.

They make a good one American Maid.

You know, I'd plug that one.

I would recommend it if you were DIY, you're at home, I would absolutely recommend to go get one.

And I'm glad Mark's chiming in down there.

It looked like he might have a minute ago too.

But that's my opinion about it.

And if you're a DIY, go get it.

It's better than nothing.

And it's it goes back to if you're not testing your guessing.

So I understand it's life sensitive and there's some conditions.

You need to learn your equipment and learn the conditions, and you know the pluses and negatives of your equipment.

Don't shoot at your equipment.

But you know, I went by the imitations in the knockoffs.

I mean, just like Ransom Ress.

We were talking about Ransomress.

There's a lot of imitations and knockoffs by a lot of imported shoot.

I'm sorry.

The two a world today is almost drawn by imported China stuff.

I hate to let you know, whether it's your your apparel, your shirts, your backpacks.

It's sad, but you know, by a competition electronics, I would support it.

Now.

I love garment.

And if you say, hey, the Labrador is missing shots, I get you.

I'm having a few issues with Labrador right now, and they got their ins and outs and I we were dealer distributor for Labrador for years and we're having our own communication with Labrador, probably similar to like the militaries having with cig right now, you know.

And I'll tell you by the way, no sig got added.

We just all got outed to a witness list, one of the.

One of them.

Sorry I mentioned the bad word, but you know, I would back Competitional Electronics.

We're still dealer distributor.

For Competitionallectronics and the other American made company.

I back them.

They're probably globally sourced electronics.

But such as things sometimes these days, very few companies like Ransom is casted, machined and made in the US a one percent, very few.

It's even American metal, American aluminum.

And if we have to source leather, it's American leather by simply rugged holsters.

But you know, one.

Of the one of them.

I will inject that I was not using that type of the skyscreen.

Now there you go a couple of different companies and it was like crap one and trap two.

It's like I'm done here whatever.

Yeah, correct.

But I love what Brian was saying.

Built a relationship with you by calling you and texting you, and I wanted to chime on that.

Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but that's what you get as American manufacturer.

You got a guy down here, Steve, who cares and will answer the phone and answer those questions you read sometimes ridiculous, how ridiculous they are, Brian with a WI We'll answer those questions, and we back our product and we want to know because we care in the boots on the ground.

I think today we've missed some of that.

Go ahead, Bran.

Two things that I think everybody, if you're a primary and secondary listener subscriber, AFR subscriber, two pieces of kit you need to own our Ransom multicl steady rest just do it there.

Thank you for the price.

I think you need to raise the price, Mike.

Just raise the price like twenty bucks.

If they buy in the next thirty days, it's good to go.

But the secret is September it is going up.

I hate to mention it, but you've heard it ear first primary and secondary.

But it's going to go up a little bit in September, mainly only because some of the guys cost a living.

It's got to go up, not because our material is going up.

Our material is still American.

But go ahead.

But second one is Ransom Master Mat.

That is the best thirty thirty five bucks.

I think I hit that right, that cleaning mat.

I'd roll it up.

I take it with me everywhere, the best piece of kit for if you're a gunsmith, if you're a hobby gunsmith.

Yeah right there, it's it's awesome and yeah, and Mike.

Mike is so generous that the revolve around up.

He usually donates a randomly every cow and a a couple of master mats to some of the students.

And yeah, with.

Raffle tickets and everybody every year is like I hope I win that because you talk about it all the time and I'm like, because it's not good, like uh, but small price to pay.

I've had.

I've got two master mats.

And and the shooting kit with the garment, the the steady rest.

Throw in a tripod and man.

The trip you can get done.

The big thing is, I'm not going to sell you three red dots four guns.

I'm not going to.

Sell you, you.

Know, multiples of these.

You're gonna buy one and if it falls off the bench, it's gonna break your toe.

Not it's not gonna break And if you ever did need a replacement or otherwise, you know, every component's replaceable.

Like Steve, you know we're on the phone.

But that's the big deal about ransom.

It's for a lifetime.

This this one over here, you know from the sixties, and you may or may not be able to see it right now, but it's it's held, it's held, it's it's time.

You know, it's tried and true.

It's got this rugor revolver in there.

It's tried and true and you can't beat it up.

They they last for a lifetime and beyond.

And same with the multi coal.

Back here you were talking about it.

There's the multi col Yeah, it's there's is it's gonna last a lifetime into a fifty GALAMMO box.

I'm not going to necessarily sell you another one.

One of the things too.

When we talked about AMMO for duty related stuff, you know, we took into consideration locales, especially like for years, like here Detroit police who couldn't carry hollow points.

For a million years, you could not use a hollow point AMMO.

And then they turned around and went to the federal emf J expanding full metal jacketary.

Yeah, right, emfj's right.

And then you know you look at the New Jersey certain areas where digital travel to or other states, right, some of that stuff and still a restricted item for whatever reason, but because I guess it makes it more deadly.

I don't know.

But you know, we've gone a long way in AMO technology since any of us have first started, right, We've gone from full round nose lead.

I mean even look back to the old Treasury load for the thirty eight special one ten plus P plus right, that was a phenomenal load.

That was a fun I still got a couple of boxes of that land around.

That was a great load.

Yeah, I mean that was that was enough?

When that was just absolutely outstanding budget.

You know, there's so much more to get into, especially when we start getting into the rifle stuff, hunting in duty related with rifles.

But can I before we go there, Oh, go ahead, can I the coinographs?

So while I agree with Brian the garment is awesome, I have one and I love it.

You can't do it in blissic jail testing.

It doesn't work because you're bulisy jails too close and the bullet's being stopped by the jel.

So you've got to have a sunscreen skyscreen for that.

And I've tested both side by side, my competition one and the garment, and there's like eight ten ft difference in them, and the garments usually farther down the range, so usually the competitions little higher.

So you're losing, especially with the bullets eye test like the wat gutters, because they're slowing down quick when you shoot them through the air, so you're losing.

You're losing quite a bit of velocity.

So yeah, I think.

You're only picking it up five feet away versus right at towards the muzzle where your skyscreen will get it well.

I usually send mine up six feet.

The gel is usually eight feet away or nine feet away, depending on where I'm ad bench I'm using, and the screen at least six feet away, so I'm shooting through six But yeah, the garment needs at least I think it's twenty fifteen twenty yards to pick up.

And so that's why you got to have both if you're going to do gel testing and test the rounds.

And I test every round every round I shoot in any ballistic testing, I get the velocity checked on it, except.

For the night shoot.

On the night shoot, I just look for muzzle flash and smoke.

I've I've chronographed every load I've shot through for all my testing with the.

Other one that's really good.

Another Corona that's really good.

That's a little bit more set up time.

Is the magneto speed?

Yeah, yeah, I've got got a magneto and it's just amazingly accurate.

It's reading.

Does it work for pistols, Oh, Steve, they do have an adapter piece that you can get.

It will work with you know.

I use it mainly on a lot of rifle stuff more than anything else.

For it.

Yeah, yeah, So magneto just like Mantus X, So when they made the Mantis X they kind of calibrated it and engineered it.

You know, with the Ransomres.

Same with Magneto they use the ransomerres.

So we had a good work in relationship with Magneto.

Yeah, they can attach to the Picatini rail and with the revolvers they actually have like a band that goes around it for the revolver and same thing you would do with Beryl a rifled barrel.

The only problem is with Magneto is you're not going to crono at the same time you're going to repeatability accuracy.

But it's a valid tool.

I would get one if your budget is small and you're a DIY person.

Magneto is a good buye.

It's it's a good idol.

I would caution and if available, save your money, get you know, try to go to uh, try to go to a skyscreen it's one sixty or one seventy five right now, you know, or or a garment if you want to spend double that.

But a Magneto is absolutely and it's actually more accurate because it has actually picking it up from the barrel, so it's actually more accurate.

If you want to be honest with you, and it's it is tracking the magnetic fly by, so it's superci.

Get it off of a snubby.

Absolutely, you can shoot it off with snubby and I should have them in stock.

I have a couple of them.

But we were We've pulled back from being dialer for for a long time.

But the big thing is with a magneto is that it can change your point of impact.

Now you you won't care you're doing ballistic jail, you're citing it in.

You can accommodate for that, you're Kentucky windage.

But if you're dealing with I want to do my accuracy repeatability to us that my Master series ress up, set my chrono up.

I want to see point of any point of impact, the loss, get it all done at once.

Magneto's not my go to.

Because it can cause a point of impact difference or harmonic difference.

Even attaching that flashlight.

I hate to say it, but attaching the flashlight to the front of your polymer.

You know it can change things.

You know it's on a polymer.

You know.

This goes back to why bulls eye shooters still run metal frame guns.

So, but I don't attach to the barrel of my revolvers or rifles.

They can change that point of impact.

I got a question Mike for Mike, like, I think the YouTube videos like I'll always you'll set two or three targets at different distances and you'd yeah, like one target array.

Yeah, is how much shift you get.

As you're shooting through cardboard on the downrange targets?

Yeah, And my apologies, our videos is so rudimentary.

I have apologize.

They're not poured it.

If we're trying, we're trying.

I'm sorry.

It's just outside exactly, and it's just an effort to get an old company and Chuck Ransom wasn't digital, you know.

We weren't digital.

We're trying to get digital, you know.

But either way, we're not going through cardboard.

So my apology.

Some of the videos, if you watch it long enough, you'll see that I actually set it up and I cut out the back of the cardboard.

So I'm only shooting through paper, my friend, it's actually going through paper to paper to paper to paper, and uh, just to get a reasonable expectation of what the gun will do.

So I'll send a few rounds and I'll actually cut out the cardboard, hang the target, and send it through.

Sometimes on the beginning of the video you'll see me go through cardboard, cardboard, cardboard, and then I'll cut it out and hang the target.

Sometimes I'll show the back of it and try to show No, we're just shooting through a little square here, I'm not actually hitting the cardboard.

Right, my brain goes, what are which deflection they're getting off that paper?

Yeah, it's ridiculous, and it's amazing when you're doing something repeatable, because me, you and the other guy we wouldn't fathom that.

But it's I'm just doing it to demonstrate why you should test and what your gun will do and what's reasonable to test.

For instance, and I don't do a good job at marketing, my apologies, I really don't.

But for instance, we'll show AMMO that look at this, it's one inch or inch and a quarter at twenty five yards.

This echine a quarter at twenty five yards looks better than the previous Ammo that was an inch.

It really does.

Let's go to the twenty five.

You go to the twenty five, whoa, this one that did one in a quarter is actually still like one and a half and then it looks but the previous one expanded way out.

It's so weird how things do at distances.

And we're mainly shooting full metal jackets.

So yes, it will do distance.

If you're talking, your holow points your defense, ammo, we could wad up or otherwise.

But once again, I'm going through paper, and at any point I set it up so at any point I can lay down the fifteen and twenty five and just at the fifty.

All I'm looking for is to go fifteen, twenty five and fifty, just on video so I can say here's what it is as a demo.

And my videos are only to show you what you can kind of reasonably expect if you would go out and touch yourself your own gun, and why the needs you need this?

And people say this thing's so expensive.

This is six hundred dollars.

Six hundred dollars, people, that's it.

And you're like, I should bring up the price of the multi col I probably should.

It's a lifetime idom.

But the Master Series rest is only six hundred bucks for the basic machine, you know, and you don't need the combo and all this, and that I would recommend the remote, so you're out eight hundred bucks.

Chuck Ransom said, under the price of a good, great gun, and I think everybody should have one.

Your life depends on it, in my opinion, Tess your MO.

Did you wear your gun out?

How about you?

Steve mentioned our Uh, I think it was Steve Fisher mentioned THEMO you bought today is not the m O you had, you know, X amount of years ago during during a Coved and Mark can justify for this.

Me and Mark talked about it as last ballistic gel at the af R test.

But we talked about AMMO.

Darren coved, didn't we Mark Amo darn coved.

That was ridiculous.

The things got so volatile and went all over the place.

I was, I love American Eagle.

You plugged American Eagle, Bryan, and that's my go to.

So if I'm going to test a gun out of the gate, I'm going to try some the greats the other Steve mentioned, UH tried known brand, not some gimmicks, not some latest and greatest.

Tried the known stuff, right, and that's that's what you should do, proven stuff that you know.

Mark tested, I think plugged Lucky Gunner.

Lucky gunn here has good information, known stuff, proven okay, but proven in this gun is not your four inch peril.

Proven in the l E block is not your M and P.

So we got to talk about that.

There's a lot to consider.

But the point is you want to use proven amo and uh, you know, but you got to test it.

You got to test to yourself know what it's going to perform for you.

And that's all we're trying to do is what to show reasonably what you can expect out of ransom rest dust.

And why you should test your gun.

Why you buy Steve's AMMO, which is great ammo, but it may not function in your gun, you know.

I I so we had my old agency, and as I understand that you rebuilt their rest, I found I found a set of nineteen eleven inserts.

And I had a friend that was into Bullseye and PPC and he was talking about how accurate his gun was, and we had we had a skyscreen chrono one day and I was.

Like, well, let's just go see like that the rest is.

Mounted, but like I found the inserts, let's go do the things.

And his two thirty grain hardball was poking out about five point fifty two point three grains.

No, No, it wasn't even that.

The rifling was just completely shot out of the guns.

And I was like, oh, I'm going to go get my old IDP, a gun that I built, and see what it did.

And the velocities were low and I went.

But because of the Ransom Rest, it was like inside of twenty five yards were still shooting an inch group.

Who cares, right, Yeah, but.

That was a that was an interesting deep dive to go and we have barrels that they're barely gas ceiling as the bullet's going out, but they were still mechanically capable take away me and the other shooter.

There were still mechanically capable of the distances we were shooting for competition of being being okay, Yeah, if I put a spear gold dot in and I wouldn't have carried it right, Like, But it's just funny that we had that old rest and I set it up one day and I'm.

Like, oh god, five point fifty Eh, that's bad.

So anyway, so to reinforce what Mike said, also that you guys were talking about a really cool video.

It's on the YouTube on the Ransom Rest YouTube page.

If you want to see this.

What a cool concept of seeing the trajectory and what the round is actually doing going through free paper and targets.

And I'm sorry, I actually got that MythBusters actually hung up some sheets of and I'm sorry I had to use it.

But one day I'm watching them and obviously there's like over a dozen episodes of MythBusters with a ransom rest.

So this goes back to like ransom is like the hidden secret.

You you've watched Fortune and Fire.

They split a bullet.

They didn't mention ransom mess.

You just saw it in the background.

MythBusters, you know, CSI and CIS, we've always kind of been there, but just in the background.

You know, there's a video from H and K No Compromise.

It shows a ransom US underwater in the background shooting.

It's the sea bullets loaded the right way, right, But so the idea came from they were shooting through sheets of cloth, blankets, right, bed sheets and Mark will Mark Freaky will appreciate this.

They were trying to curve a bullet and what they were actually doing was putting lands on the bullet, and then they drilled the bullet and they offset the bullet they ground the bullet and they were trying to curve the bullet.

I think on this episode there was also one they set the ransomrest on the mechanical arm and they flung the arm as fast as they can with the ransom ust and trying to curve the bullet around the corner, right, trying the old as they're breaking bad movie or something, but it was old mythmizer and I was watching that saying, wow, they and they shine the laser through all the sheets and said, nope, the bullets straight.

The bullets stayed straight.

And I went, you know, there you have it.

I'm not dealing with expansion this and that if I'm only going through paper and I'm only looking for the starting measuring stick.

And this goes back to if you're not testing your guessing, you need that measuring stick.

And I don't care what.

Here's what aggravates me about the gun world.

If I can segue into this and my apologies, they literally episode what's that?

That's usually a December episode?

Okay, right, right, okay, I got you.

They sell you a bad bill of goods.

They tell you, hey, this is the latest and greats.

They sell you bad baby.

Hey, if you believe YouTube, every rifle you buy right now is subm A.

Every rifle you buy it sub m A.

It's cool, courterma half moa, every rifle you by, you know, every handgun you buy and the hand the gun writers today and I love them and they're my friends, so I'm not talking bad about them, but it's a pay to play, and they want to show the gun in good light.

I want to show the gun when I test it in good light.

But when you watch my videos, you're going to see some of these guns go from three quarter of an inch to four inch and six inch groups soccer ball, and we go back to polymers.

How fall it's all polymers are and they flop around like a West spaghetti noodle, and ammo really matters.

You go to revolvers, as you were mentioning Brian, they're not so acceptible to velocity what you feed through them.

They just they.

Have fixed barrel, solid barrel.

You know they're going to pretty well chew on and spit out what you feed through.

You may get an inch variation, big freaking whoopie.

But when I'm talking three quarters to four inch, that's a big whoopy because I'm going to be an inch or two larger right when I'm off, and I'm going to be an inch or too larger if I if I'm a good shooter, I'm going to be an inch or two larger.

So if I'm getting three quarter out of my rest, I'm going to be two inch.

Let's say if I'm getting four inch out of my rest, I'm going to be six and seven.

I'm looking like an idiot out at the range.

I have one time in my life outshot a ransom rest and it was with a clapped out nineteen eleven that when the barrel would when the slide would come back into battery, the sites were slightly out of alignment, and my eye back when I was twenty six could perceive.

That it wasn't I would.

It don't need necessarily out shooting the rest.

I was.

I was adjusting to the gun that the ransom rest.

Could adjust because the slide to frames that was so bad the sites were.

It can be like.

As that reciprocates back to battery and some some of the old concepts says you can't trust a ransom rest unless you cite the gun every time for your semi auto.

So we'll address that in a minute, and there could be a reason the guy just overclamped the gun in the machine.

Keep in mind, girls shoot these guns, and the human an grip's not that strong, So if you overclamp the gun in the machine, it could rock and you may outshoot the ransom reress.

But let me chime into this first