Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.

I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia.

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Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session four Therapy for Black Girls Podcast.

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This week, we're discussing a crisis that's disrupting lives across the country, the escalating wave of deportations, tearing families apart and dismantling the fragile sense of safety many immigrants cling to.

Today, I'm joined by Catherine Laberon, a writer, organizer, and research manager whose work lives at the intersections of immigration, justice, black liberation, and mental health.

Catherine has spent her career advocating for black immigrants whose stories are too often erased from national conversations.

She first began making sense of injustice through poetry, transforming personal experience into a practice of healing and resistance.

Today, her work centers around archiving black mirgareant wisdom and building safe spaces for those navigating distant placement, identity, and systemic injustice.

Katherine and I discussed the emotional toll of migration, the resilience of African and Caribbean diasporic communities, and explore the ways art, community care, and protecting joy become lifelines in the face of racism and erasure.

If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media using the hashtag TVG in session, or join us over in our Patreon channel Let's talk more about the episode.

You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com.

Here's our conversation, Catherine, thank you so much for joining us today.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah, I'm excited to chat with you and would love to start by hearing more about your backgrounds or you have worked at the intersection of immigration, justice, and mental health and liberation for quite some time.

Now, so what got you into this fuel and can you tell us more about your work.

So I'm Nigerian.

I was born in New York, raised in London, and as a young black girl growing up in Northwest London, I was very aware of the mistreatment of immigrants in the country.

I just have this visceral feeling around the disparities and the injustices that we were experiencing, even before I had the language to describe it.

So in my childhood, poetry became the avenue for me to make sense of some of the things that I was feeling and witnessing in London.

And the more I started telling my own personal story, the more I felt that poetry was this alchemizing force for me to be able to heal and make sense of my suffering.

And I wanted to accompany other young black girls and doing the same to access that liberation and healing that art't mix possible.

So my core within the work that I do in service of black migrants is thinking about storytelling, thinking about archiving our wisdom, our strategies, all of the things have been passed on to us throughout generations so that we can continue to fight for justice for all people.

So I always round in my background in terms of ancestry and writing, and that has led me to work across advotacy, research and policy spaces.

Yeah, and a lot of your work has been policy.

So what does a day to day look like for you currently?

It looks like so many different things because I work at the intersection of so many different movements from racial justice, gender justice, migrant justice.

Everything is very intersectional.

So I don't think there's any typical day to day because the sociopolitical climate that we are in is continuously shifting, like continuous and new stresses that people are experiencing.

But I would say again, the core is thinking about how do we research what's happening, How do we ensure that people on the ground are informed and there are the actions that they can take.

How can we ensure that we're doing this work in a way that truly sens people and their needs, And how we also archiving the impact of what that we're doing so that we do want duplicate efforts from the future.

And I now have the honor of doing that with several different organizations as a consultant.

So really just tailoring my work to support the organization and Efflective's needs.

Can you say more about what led you to developing your consulting firm where you identifying gaps that organizations needed help with wood led you there?

Sure?

Yeah, again, I think what led me there is this insistence that there is a deep interdependence between art and activism and in order to do this work, whether it's naming disparities that we are seeing or shining light on injustice.

For me, art is the mechanism that makes all things possible, that allows people to be truly engaged from the work that makes people remember details.

So my consulting work is being able to shed light on those kinds of intersections so that even as we are bringing people together, they are using their hands to create part and they're taking it away.

They are journaling with their grandmothers about what their grandmother experienced in Civil War.

You know, they are thinking about the music that they can create, the sounds that they remember from childhood.

So yeah, I think that's kind of what pushed me into it is just, yes, wanting to do work around justice, but then also being an artist myself and not seeing them separate things, thinking that they can both live together and that when you bring artists and activisms and room magic happens.

And you mentioned that so much of your passion has been fueled by your old childhood experiences, right, and noticing some of the discrepancies and the disparities.

Can you say more about like what you saw as a child and maybe how that looks different, if at all, to what we are seeing now.

Yeah, So, as I mentioned the drop up in London, I think about the high school that I was in very often where we were not allowed to braid our hair.

Black girls are not allowed to webraids.

If you have in your head, you be set home.

Black boys can't allowed to cut their heads too shorts if they didn't feel to set home, and that was my brother's experienced, and if they had their head too long, they would also be set home.

So there was just no way that you could express yourself for your culture and your identity without that being punished.

And then just seeing the way that like migrants and running retreated lower wages that they experienced living under continuous sphere of deportation.

Yeah, it wasn't the kind of childhood that were centered on play and fun at times, even though we found our own abnues and pathways to make that possible structurally with in society, it was likely what being punished to existing theath So.

You're already talking about I think some of the like emotional weight that the immigrant process looks like, even for children, right, So I definitely want to shift more to talking about like where we find ourselves now and what the experience is typically like in the emotional toll that can have, especially when there are restrictive administrations like the one we have now.

So yes, it's a way to constantly being made to question your place in the country and whether you belong.

We're always living with this fear being detained or reported.

And even if you will say for being yourself, you are concerned about the people that you care about, your loved ones, it makes you clap the vigilant and concern around them.

To trust you may be collaborating with ICE, we may give more information over so your body is always in this state or flight or flight, and we know that that that of course have very carmful consequences when that becomes chronic.

Even when you are just falling on your phone or looking at the news, you're seeing things like ICE has been given huge quotas of like three thousand arrests to make a day, and they're being given signing bonuses, we're joining if they want to sign up as ice offices.

It's just is this consistent reminder that your life is being seen as disposable.

And even if you want to advocate and speak up against the injustices that people are experiencing, saying who are scared that you're advocacy could therefore lead to you also being deported as well.

So it's a process of also feeling like you are silent.

And there are people who are in the process of mentally preparing to be deported to countries where they have known memories, no family, don't network, seeing as they have made home tears, so they are effectively and told to start over without any support in doing so.

So they're just as helpless.

List of the different ways that impacts people, including children of course, who are been scared to go to school or for preparents to go to work because they are living in the reality that that may be the last time that they see their parents.

H And can you speak to camp and like, what does support look like?

I would imagine there may be community gatherings or you know, talking with people who understand this whole process.

What does support look like when you are under like this constant fear?

Yeah, I think it involves being able to lean on if that were connected with But you know, I pause and saying that because for some black migrants there isn't that community network.

They are coming here by themselves, so that support sometimes can be fleeting.

But people have mentioned, of course wanting to support from therapists and be able to manage their mental health.

But even with that, a lot of people experience cost barriers.

So the real question we ask is around having affordable access to therapy, especially for Black migrants.

I know people find a lot of solace in their places of worship, so sometimes people may go to church or moss, but even now there is a lot of fear around even going to places of worship due to fears of ice raids as well.

There are organizations that are brilliant about offering community care in these ways and offering your rights trainings, legal supports and so on.

Some of those organizations are the Black Lines for Just Immigration, Patient Women for Haitian Refuges, Patent Bridge Alliance, African Communities Together, Freedoms Immigrants, and DOCU Black BLMP, and I'm naming these organizations just in case anyone would like to look up their work and connect with them.

So, despite all of the structural limitations for people seeing support, there are ways in which ministries are organizing mutual aid funds to try and support people in these times as well.

Thank you for that, Catherine.

More from our conversation after the break.

You know, there is often the misconception that immigration only impacts like Latin communities, right, which leaves this whole population of black migrants out.

Can you talk about the horn that that kind of misconception does, especially for the black migrant experience.

Yes, it basically, well, it is sensep anti blackness.

It's centered on trying to erase black migrants from the conversation around immigration.

It leads to our visibilization when it comes to resources and the supports that we can have access to, and we see this happen in a variety of rates, for example of language justice.

For example, when we think about the languages that resources are translated to, it's rarely translated into African and Fribean languages, which means that our people are missing vital is information.

And we know that black migrants are disproportionately infected via see of these policies, especially when we think about frommigration and the ways in which black migrants are over policed and have higher risks of deportation due to these contacts, even if they are never charged with a crime, So even one violent crimes can lead to deportation, and this of course means that they are higher risk of being rationally profiled, more likely to experience police brutality, prison solitary confinement and retention, importation and so on.

And then when we look at Pump's travel band, for example, we see that many of the countries impacted by that are African and Phobian countries like Katiboth than Smart Year.

So again a case of anti blackness and the way in which we see racial injustice using morphobia is affection.

Are there any recent statistics or case studies that you have that can really highlight how ice is disproportionately targeting the black community.

So black migrants make up five percent of the indocuments of population, but they make up twenty percent of the migrants who are facing removable due to criminal convictions.

Black migrants are six times more likely to be solitary confinement in detention, they are also well than two times more likely to be reduced when in detention.

And when we look at determination of temporary protected status, for example, in the case of patient immigrants, that would leave over five hundred thousand people vulnerable to deportation, as well as migrants from countries Mike, Sudan and Marine.

And one of the cases that I have currently been keeping my eye on is that of one to Just who was taken into detention following Ady Stock and his partner currently does not know where he is.

So the information that she has received is that he's experiencing severe nosebleeds and there are concerns around the food and eir quality in the environment that he's in.

But she's been trying to locate him.

And I'm also thinking of Forgey, who's a thirty nine year old black disabled migrant who went to traffic ports and on the courthouse steps he was kidnapped by ice and he's currently experiencing mental and physical health issues as well.

Now.

So there are several fund raisers to try and secure legal representation, but there are just so many places they're endless, and we're seeing that the climate slave is bos and West day by day.

I really appreciate you shedding light on the Katherine because I was just thinking, like some of the more high file cases where ICE has kidnapped people, I don't feel like I've heard them be any Black migrants right, Like, it feels like they are not typically members of the black community.

So I'm really appreciative of you sharing that.

It feels like that is another instance of you know, like the black community in anti blackness really proliferating conversations around immigration and coverage around what's happening.

So how do intersecting identities like being black, undocumented, queer, and training and shape their immigrant experience in ways that can compound trauma and risk.

Yes, so there are many black migrants have left home countries that had homophobic and transphobic environments, policies and practices, places where they could be killed or incarcerated for being paratrans to come to the US where the attacks on LGBTYE plus people are increasing.

So it means being exposed to compounding full of trauma and being disproportionately vulnerable to violence.

They are experiencing attacks on all fronts at this time due to those intersections that you named race, gender, sexuality, immigration, status, and so on.

The prejudices that queer and trans people are experiencing, including in immigrant communities, that make it harder for them to have community.

It deepens the feeling of isolation.

Even when we think about seeking health care, for example, they have increasing fears around medical violence, use of being black, and trends.

So when I think about these intersections of identities, I feel like there just needs to be way more advocacy and way more visibility around the needs that black and documented queer and trans people are experiencing.

And there are organizations, including those dimensioned but specifically the LMP, who is doing great work to combat into these injustices that these multies are experiencing.

So I wonder are you able to highlight any particular experiences for black women migrants, because you know, we know that that experience is different, right, and I would imagine it's no different for the migrant experience.

Are there any particular nuances that you can highlight there?

Yeah, So, LA migrant women are more likely to experience sexual and gender based violence at different points of their migration journey, so it could happen when they are in the home countries on their way to the US while they're in the US, So we've had several counts of people just experiencing compounding forms of violence and then of course coming here and not having access to healthcare or ways to heal from the trauma that they'd experience.

They are more likely to make less money and live below the poverty line, which means that it's even more difficult for them to be caregivers to look after their children and elders and their families and communities and so on.

They are more likely to experience health issues and biases in medical institutions that are difficult to navigate, these language barriers, and they're all so more likely to experience domestic violence.

I may not know good to turn to due to fear of speaking out, and that impacting their ability to remain in the country.

So definitely we see lots of the trends that black women in general experience, unfortunately, and how that kind of translates inverts about black micro women experience.

And you mentioned earlier herethan that some of what a lot of the other organizations are offering are things like know your Rights kind of campaigns, and it kind of feels like, is there anything that people can do to protect themselves right now given their ice agents or just showing up have hazardly and taking people in without any real rhyme or reason.

When you talk about like knowing your rights, like, are there things that you can point to and or offer for people who may be worried about detention and things they need to maybe have on their person.

Yeah, so the noneral rights trainings, I know that there are several organizations that also have like physical parts just to keep people keep at the top of people's minds their right to remain silent or right to seek legal representation, and they have it translated into several languages.

So I think that that is a useful thing to keep in mind.

I think there are mental health resources that are being offered by several organizations, with therapists even offering free therapy sessions for people to help them decompress and do that work around regulating their nervous systems, which is important.

I always advocate for people when possible to try and think about community safety plans with people that they trust again if that's possible, if they haven't trusted people, so that they can think about alternatives to calling the police.

Seeingers that we know that police in ice go hand in hand as well.

So it's difficult, definitely to think about the solution because everyone's situation is different.

But I think just starting with connecting with some of these organizations on the ground, especially that have mutual aid funds some of these organizations, or supporting people and even just getting groceries delivered because they're fearful of their into supermarkets themselves.

Thinking about this tangible instatasies and meet them back and also they're a really long way and allowing people to feel cared for and seen.

You already mentioned some concerns around the travel bands and how those impact like Caribbean countries and other black countries.

Are there other laws or things that you expect to be put in place that are on the pipeline or being discussed right now that we expect to disproportionately impact black migrants.

Yeah, So for me, I'm not aware of things that are currently in the pipeline, but I would say that what I'm unfortunately sassin about is just the increased in criminalization of black migrant communities.

I think that we are just going to see the increased presence of police and the increased collaboration between police and ICE and other institutions to make people even more fearful around experiencing and receiving services that are life saving, including just seeking medical care.

And also I just think we're going to see a lot more around just the infringement of people's data security and rites with people's information being handed over to ICE to make more rests and to try and increase this detention to deportation pipeline.

Yeah, you've already talked a little bit about this also, Catherine, But are there any things in particular that you want to highlight about black girls in the migrant experience, especially people are separated from families, like anything that you want to kind of call attention to about how that's impacting black girls.

I think for black girls, again, as I mentioned, when you are in an environment where you are thinking and concerned about your safety, your belonging the second and belonging of people and your family and your communities, there are parts of your childhood that become sacrificed.

There is a way in which you are forced into knowing more and that you are trying to be in defense of the people that you care about.

It makes you just scared to do things that children should do, make friends, playing, tell people things about yourself.

So I have a very soft spot for young black girls because I just wish that there was a different reality that was possible for them.

And I know that in this time, in this moment, especially with the increase that we are seeing around these anti immigrant policies, that people are breathing like it's summer and it's sunny and ideally kids should be Oxford just enjoying themselves, but people are living in hiding right now.

Yeah, more from our conversation after the break, and I would imagine there's probably increasing fear about what happens when the school year starts again, right Like, I feel like we saw some conversations around ice showing up at school at school was ending this year, and so you know, with a new school year on the horizon, I would imagine there was an increasing fear there.

Yeah, exactly exactly.

This is no break, whether you're home from school, whether they're at school, whether you're at home, whether you're outside, it's just as consistently for just being scaped of goddesses what you are.

You've already offered a lot of suggestions.

But is there anything else that you'd like to offer to families or people who might be, you know, worried about ice or how to protect themselves, anything else tangible that they should be aware of about how to protect themselves and their families.

Yes, so I would encourage people that care about ammunities that'll be impacted by these anti immigrant policies to amplify the stories that they're seeing, especially with black migrants, seeing as we married that we're experiencing so much for rasia from media and all these platforms.

People can also so consider participating in court Watch, which involves volunteering to accompany people support so that they know they're not alone and that the judges of attorneys also know that there's a community trying to hold them accountable.

People can also volunteer for detention hotlines to be able to communicate with people, send letters to people detention, sign for petitions.

I think people can also post when they see ice in places.

I've seen a lot of people in New York do that when they see that there's an ice presence somewhere, Just notifying people so that they can organize themselves accordingly, and then also for service providers if it's possible, I would really encourage people to consider offering low cost for free sessions to black migrants who are trying to navigate the trauma that they're experiencing at this time.

You know, Okay, then you bring up a good point.

And I feel like I've seen a lot of stories around like if not identifying themselves, right, they're not necessarily dressed in like uniform and so how do you even know if you are having an encounter with an ICE agent or like that there is a collection of them somewhere?

Is there any way to tell?

Yeah?

I think that's one of the scariest parts that people are just literally being kidnapped by people who they cannot even identify, and their communities are not even aware of what's happening until it's too late, often or until they're already being detained.

So what you're naming is actually part of the scariest parts about it is that it's almost like a mob that is just going and taking people off the streets.

Yeah, and because there isn't necessarily any identification, it doesn't feel like there's a real way to follow somebody, like if they have been detained, right, Like how do you even identify where somebody is in the system or maybe where they've been deported if you weren't able to get any real information like from the person who detained them.

Yeah, I think it's very difficult.

I know that the organizations believe that's trying to form like detention trackers and things like that, But as I mentioned with the caser like Ronny do just like his partner, really doesn't know what he is at his time.

So there's a lot of tiqueness to the system which makes it even more scary and makes it even more possible for people to be taken and deported.

So you mentioned a couple of ways that people can be good allies right on court Wach you mentioned writing letters.

Are there specific legislators that we need to be writing to or talking with?

What kind of other advocacy things people want to get involved in that could help with some of this.

Yes, I think that that would be great, And they're definitely organizations like the ones are listed who have those lists of people that are currently trying to target doing a love work on the hill to try and ensure that there are some advocacy happening there.

So I would say a good starting place is to connect with the organizations on the ground who don't go work and see the different people that they are trying to contact at this time to try and build power in that way.

You've offered several different organizations that you said are offering access to therapy.

Are there other mental health services that you would like to see being provided to black migrants to this community at this time?

Yeah, I know that so many black migrants have different spiritual practices.

For example, myself, I'm Menagering, I'm Europa and our people, well, some of our people practice lyfar and different forms of spiritual practices.

So thinking about more holistic ways of thinking about mental and spiritual health feels important.

So for anyone who is a service provider in ers that maybe do not fall under traditional forms of therapy, even things like reiki, people that even do things in the realm of like astrology, people are just like yearning for different forms of no and healing in this time, and I think it's all important.

So I know that's a lot of times people like you know, I don't do this, this would be useful, But our people now are open to allferings because they're all different and have different areas that we would like to experience cair and support.

So I think really just thinking of out of the box around what you can offer and seeing how you can also ensure that people that are directly impacted by these issues know that you have these offerings of noble and I actually have a mental health database on my website where I include like a list of some of these offerings from people that I know are offering free to low cost therapy options.

Beautiful.

I appreciate that.

And my next question was going to be, would you suggest like connecting maybe with one of the organizations that you have listed, because I would imagine with so much fear, like you don't want to just say like, oh, I'm offering this group for people, and people don't know how to trust that, like you're actually creating a safe space.

So would the best way be to actually connect with somebody else who's already like a trusted partner in this work so that you can share your offerings.

Yeah, No, I think that's a really great idea.

I think the more comfortable that people feel with the sanvice provider, the easier is for them to feel like it can reach out.

But then I suppose I think that there's net and being able to share on your platforms as well, if you have like a presence, whether it's on social media or otherwise, that Hi, I'm this person, Here's my background is one trying to offer Here's why I'm trying to offer it.

Here are the steps I will take to try and ensure your safety as we engaged with each other.

I think the more thought that can be shared suddenly will share the true intentions of a person and will make people more comfortable reaching out to them.

Can you give any insight onto what kinds of platforms people may want to use, Like I understand that things like signal or other platforms may be a better way to communicate with people than maybe just like your regular text messages.

Can you offer any insight into what kinds of platforms to use and maybe ensure a further safety.

Yeah, so signal definitely, And I think on Signal there's several settings around just allowing things to disappear.

Also, people maybe not using their actual names even on signal, turning off notifications when you are traveling and you're landing in, turning your phone off, turning off base ID when you are at convenings, example, conferences, if you can ask people to not share their location while they're there.

Now on people's stories, sometimes they want to share where they're at and what they're doing, but if they could hold off and do that after, that will help protect the safety of people.

For researchers trying to use encrypted databases that offer you their ability to put passwords and have a separate key and to take away identifiable information, or even just not asking demographic information if it's not needed.

So, depending on the field, I think there are different ways that people can go about trying to enforce and ensure that people are as safe as possible.

Kevin, is there any message of hope or resistance that you would like to share for people who may be feeling overwhelmed by this process, anything that you can offer.

Yes, I would remind them that they belong.

They belong, they belong, that they are inherently worthy and valuable, that will continue to fight for them, will continue to organize for them, That they deserve community, they deserve care.

Yeah, I think that's just a reminder of the inherent welthiness and the inherent ability that they should have to be here, and that there are several people on the ground, visireful, talented people on the ground who are fighting for them day in and day out.

Thank you for that.

So where can we stay connected with you?

Catherine?

What is your website as well as any social media channel?

What you'd like to share?

Yes, so, my name is Katherine Labyn, My website is Catherine Labron dot com.

My whole name is c A t h E r I n E la b I r a n.

And the website is Kaprinelabyn dot com.

Social media at cats Labyron so c at hs la b I r A N.

Yeah, if you reach out to me on any of those platforms, I would love to sit the next and talk to you more about any of the things to be spoken about today.

Thank you so much for joining us, Katherine.

I appreciate it.

Thank you.

I was so inspired by my conversation with Katherine, and I hope that you took away a lot from this episode as well.

To learn more about Katherine or to check out the resources she shared, be sure to visit our show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash session for twenty seven, and don't forget to text this episode to two of your girls right now and tell them to check it out.

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This episode was produced by Aleise Ellis, Indytubu and Tyree Rush.

Editing was done by Dennison Bradford.

Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week.

I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.

Take good care,