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Let's talk about scams.

It's the must listen show for anyone who wants to protect themselves and their loved ones from scams.

Every Tuesday at am Pacific time on K four HD Radio, Joyce Petrowski, founder of Rose, and her guests will provide valuable insights and practical tips on how to recognize and protect yourself from scams.

And now here is your host, Joyce Petrowski.

Welcome back, everybody, I'm Joyce Petrowski, founder of Rose Resources Outreach to Safeguard the Elderly.

You can find more information on our website at Roseadvocacy dot org.

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And so today we are going to talk about data breaches and how those help scammers and what you can what you should watch for, and what you can do after you've been notified of one.

And I have a guest with me today, doctor Martina Doves.

She's been on before, so Doctor Martina Dove is a research and behavioral science lead at Charms Security and the off author of the Psychology of Fraud, Persuasion, and Scam Techniques.

With a background in psychology, her expertise lies at the intersection of deception, social engineering, and the psychological mechanisms of persuasion.

Her work explores the cognitive and behavioral factors underlying fraud, compliance, and victimization.

So let's uh, let's welcome Martina.

Hi everyone, Hi Martina, how are you.

Hi?

I'm fine, Thank you and thanks for having me yet again.

I love coming and talking of us comes great.

I am going to check really quickly on my audio because for yeah, here, I gotta hang on one second.

That might be better.

I was having a hard time here.

That is much better.

Okay, all right, now I can hear you in my earphones now, all right, So data breaches.

I saw that you had just recently made a post on LinkedIn about hearing about a data breach that.

Was Apple, Facebook, Google.

I think there was a lot of major companies involved.

So tell us a little bit more about that.

Yeah, I mean, you know, data breaches happen all the time.

I think this is just now a face like a fact of life.

I don't know that there's a company out there that hasn't been reached at some point.

True, And they are very very important because they do allow commers to not only with the stolen details, which get hard stedn't used, but the GIFs comers a novelty factor to kind of approach you with, if that makes sense.

Right, Okay, And but this latest one, it sounded like it hit a bunch of really major major players that a lot of people would have accounts with.

I mean kind of like Amazon has millions of people, Facebook has millions of people Google does, Apple does, Right, So I think it was kind of a jackpot breach for the hackers, and then it's going to automatically be a jackpot for the scammers.

Right, Yeah, it's it's really unfortunate.

Like you said, there are tons and tons of people that have Apple iPhones, that have Apple accounts, that have Facebook accounts, and we all use different things like I use my Google, you know account for email.

I use Facebook to you know that Google email to get into Facebook, I use you know, so so it's all connected, and I spent I must say, I spent a good couple of hours changing password across like most of the things that I have, just in case, because if somebody gets access to your email, they can then maybe get access to your Facebook and so on and so forth and use or use the pieces of those information to actually persuade you to give them more.

Right.

So that that's an interesting point that you made.

There is a lot of accounts.

When you go to sign in, it allows you it'll ask you if you want to sign in through Google or do you want to sign in through Facebook, not necessarily having to put your user you know, your username and password in.

Right, there.

So if you're using Facebook or Google to sign in to a lot of other accounts, now you not only have to change your Facebook and your Google and your Apple password and all that, You've got to go to all those other accounts that you've used Google or Facebook to sign in with and change all of that information.

Yeah, it's advisable to do that.

I mean, I I you know, it doesn't necessarily mean that a commera's going to attack you from all sides, because at the end of the day, they'll do whatever's easier for them, you know, and it's easy, quick and easy.

But I think it's always advisable.

I always think if you have an email that you're banking with too, always change like any data bridge that you heard about, always change your passport for that email.

It's you know, you know, better to be saved than sorry, just in case.

Well, right, because even if you use your email for the username, right, and you might have a different password for your bank accounts or any financial accounts.

But if someone was able to get into your email, then they could they could be one step closer to trying to get into your financial accounts.

Yeah, I mean, like you mentioned, if somebody gets access to your email.

You may you still may have access to the emails, but this person is logging in as you, and maybe they can manipulate a lot of the times, Like if somebody is really motivated, they'll they'll just your settings so you're not even getting alerted, you know, and so like they'll change the email that usually alerts you or something like that, and then they can change the password, and like, so it's it's it's it's all connected.

And I think, you know, we need to think about every time we want convenience.

You know, that costs us and I think that's one way that we pay for that convenience.

Yeah, yeah, and you know it is.

There's a lot of things out there that are convenient, right, but you have to think of all of the risk.

And it might not be just the risk associated with that particular program or app.

It could be because things are so connected and if you're using your email right to log in, or you're using the same password, it's all connected.

Because if one's breached, you know, they're not just going to use it on just one account.

They're going to put it in their software and find all these other accounts that you've reused logins on because they know.

And you know, it's interesting.

I read these articles that these tech companies put out every year about password statistics, and the one that I just read said and it was at least half, maybe if not more, people are still using the word password for their password or one, two, three, four, five six, And sometimes they just choose that.

Other times that might be the default password that a company has, and when they sign up for it, they're not automatically then directed to change their password.

I don't know.

I think that's true that that companies really need to do.

Right, If you're going to have.

A password, a default password like that, then it should be when someone logs in for the first time, they should automatically be redirected to change their password.

Yeah, And I think I think the organizations are getting better at that, and like they are asking you to choose a strong password.

So like, I think we have gotten a lot better at like you know, but I think what I would like to see as well, a lot of the times it gets really tricky with passwords as well, where like every single company has their own you know, like format of how they want the password, and sometimes it's really really difficult to you know, account for all of the formats and and remember them.

So this is why I think people default to the simplest thing that can remember, which then obviously make it vulnerable.

And I'll tell you a funny story, and I'm not going to mention which relative, but one of my relatives has passwords that like it's literally almost like the name, surname, and date of birth, and like I'm constantly telling them don't do that.

I know, for obvious reasons, but yeah, it's it's you know, like I'm having to sort of tell people like don't you know, like you know, and then people just you know, unless you have been breached, unless your details were stolen, you have this sense of like, oh, what happened to me?

Like why would somebody?

I hear that a lot?

Who would want my stuff?

Like who would want to get into my Facebook?

Well it's not about you, but for example, you know, like I posted something on LinkedIn when this breach happened, and I posted on my Facebook saying to people like, hey, expect your friends texting you and saying they need money, right, And that's exactly what happened.

Immediately one of my friends said, I just got a Whatsap message from a friend asking to lend her, you know, like one four hundred dollars and you know, she luckily said can you call me back?

And then obviously was suspicious and so my message.

But a lot of the times when people breach your Facebook, you it doesn't harm you in so many ways, but it harms your friends because then this camera will be posting on your behalf to your friends asking for money.

So I think, you know, that's something that I think people need to understand.

Even if your Facebook doesn't you don't have anything to steal on a Facebook, think about how you're getting a message from let's say your cousin on Facebook that they're in trouble, they've been kidnapped, they've been harmed, and they need money, you know, would feel And I think that's that's kind of like I think people don't really think further than just like, well, I don't have anything, you know, I hear that so many stuffs.

I don't have anything to steal.

I don't care, you know, But I think, yeah, it's like what you said, we all connect.

It's all connected right about.

It is great because it's convenient to have everything connected, right and and we like convenience.

It makes it more simpler to do what we want to do online and not have to worry about navigating through a password manager, right if that's not working appropriately, or however you store your passwords.

But so it's interesting.

There's a gentleman here in town that I work with.

He sponsors some he sponsors our program to take our program out to some different communities.

And we were just I was just doing a presentation with him yesterday and he told it was for his clients, and he told his clients about how he got a call from one of his friends who lives in another state.

It's a state where this gentleman grew up in and his friends saw that his sister was advertising this vehicle for sale.

The price made it seem like it was a fire sale type thing, like I have to get rid of it, you know, it's a low price because I need the money whatever, And he was really interested in it, and he just for whatever reason, said I'm going to call my friend and and.

Ask him about this.

And so he did and he's like, hey, you know your sister's selling this vehicle, you know, online and on Facebook, and and he was like, no, she's she's been hacked, her Facebook's been been hacked.

It's not her, But he said he got that call from a couple different friends.

They were ready to send the money, right, and it would have been thousands of dollars, but something made them call him to say, Hey, your sister's selling this.

It's a really cheap price.

What's going on?

Right?

And and so it doesn't necessarily affect his sister, but guess what her friends are going to get affected because they can lose through no fault of hers, right, no fault of hers, But but it can affect your friends that they then affect your friends.

Yeah, And I think like one thing that I I, you know, I always advocate in terms of the data breaches, right, Like it's not just the data that gets stolen, Like I, you know, always say this.

Comers really love any novel situation.

If there's a some kind of a natural disaster that will hit people with charitiescams, if there's a you know, like during COVID, we had tons of websites selling you know, imaginary like masks and things like that and hands the analyzer and sanitizer like miracle cures, like people who buying vitamins or something like that.

And one of the things that that like happens during like after a breach.

Uh, it gives comers that ability to call you and pretend it's a bank warning you about the breach and to transfer the money to some other account for safe keeping or something like that.

So it gives them a narrative that can manipulate, uh.

And then you get tons of phishing emails too, Like for example, yesterday I got a text from my CEO my company and can you talk?

And I'm like, I know it's not you, you know, but like it happens so quickly after the bridge was announced, you know, so you get lots of phishing emails, lots of like SMS from your bank, or let's say, Apple will text you and say, hey, we've been breached.

Can you please you know, change your password through this link, you know what I mean.

So it's kind of like stuff like that.

There's recovery schemes.

If you're defrauded straight after the data bridge, you may then get a recovery scheme offered to you.

Hey, like you've lost this money, we can help recover the funds.

And then some commers will kind of like get you again, so it gives them more than just your data.

Data is just that to enhance credibility when they call you, so that they can say, hey, you know we know your past, do we know your email?

That we are who we are, Yeah, but it also gives them this narrative that I can exploit to right.

Yeah, And you know, I talked to a lady here that she got that very call a couple of years ago, pretending to be from the bank that there was fraud.

It dealt with fraud versus a data breach.

But there's fraud on your account.

And you know, they convinced her to to you know, verify everything, and then said we need to we need to move the money out of your account into another account for safe keeping until we can get rid of this fraud.

And you know, she wanted to go to the bank, and they convinced her that no, because we feel it's one of the employees at the bank that's committing this fraud.

And they sound so legitimate, and they say, you know, pretty similar to what a bank would say if that really was happening, to make it so believable, like you said, right, and they very well.

It might have all started from data bridge where they got her information, but then they used it as there's fraud going on with your account and all that she ended up thing seventy five percent of her life savings.

Yep, I mean no, definitely.

I had a similar case.

I spoke to a victim in the UK.

And this is another thing that like it's nothing to do with the with the with the data breaches or anything like that, but it's like to do with like a public information.

So for example, this person has just recently sold the house and had a lot of money in the account and these public these are public records.

You know, people can find out who sold, you know, so so scammers will use things like that to then target the individual that can purchase your details from somebody else.

Link the data.

There are data brokers that linked data.

You know, so you have name, they'll link it to this to the address, to IP address to your computer, you know, like it's you know, they are legitimate a brokeers that do that for purposes of targeting from legitimate companies for us stounding and marketing exactly exactly.

And so like she got called by somebody pretending to be from the uh you know, the financial like you know, authority that is like a very I think it's called the Financial Conduct Authority in the UK.

It's like it's a it's an authority like body that governs all of the banks and anything financial, right, so kind of like FINRA and stuff like that.

In one of like yeah, yeah, and.

Then talking to her for about a month and a half every single day updates like what's happening with her account that there's a suspect inside a fraud.

She was speaking not to one but to two people.

So now another person is is supporting what the first one is saying, so you believe it more.

And then suddenly there's an incident, right, like you know the person is going to do it tonight, you have to move the money.

And basically, you know, she the coach of what to say when she goes to the bank, absolutely, but she believed that everybody at the bank could be a suspect because they still didn't find out who it is.

So you know, it's like like I think a lot of the times bank have you know, bank may be a surprise when they try to intervene and they don't understand why a person just doesn't take the word right.

But you have to understand the amount of manipulation that goes in before that carefully goes in before, because if somebody called you and just told you one thing on a first phone call, you would go like, who are you right?

You know it's already.

If somebody called you and said, hey, Joyce, you know, like please transfer this money because like this inside the fraud in the bank, you would go, who are you exactly?

Transfer money right exactly.

But if somebody keeps calling you for a whole month daily, two different people updating you on what's going on with the investigation, and you start to believe it, you know, it's very difficult to intervene, you know, and then of course banks often will just intervene in a very literal way instead of actually prodding what's happening, and then it ends up just like not being very successful because by that time the victim is groomed and it can be devastating.

Like you said, yeah, I was just going to say, it's like a grooming effect like they do with the romance scam and the pig butchering scam, you know, where they take the time to groom before they actually then start wanting you, you know, with transfer your money, however, they want it done right.

So you had mentioned like the text message that someone had said they received from a friend asking for money after this data breach.

Are there other things that you see, specific scams or you know, like emails or anything like that that have a tendency to happen right after these breaches.

Yeah, I think, like you need to look for any kind of phishing text or emails, and I think the most frequent one will be email or a text will pretend to be from the body that was breached, from the entity that was bridged.

So like let's say if it's the Mobile or Apple, you will get like emails that will talk about the bridge saying, oh, in a recent data breach, please verify your details.

You know, so they will actually use the data bridge as an excuse to contact you and try to sort of like tell you, hey, it's a legitimate company just contacting their customers to let them know like any company would.

So a lot of the times as well, people don't understand that when a data bridg happens, sometimes the company it's not yet aware that it happened, so that may take some time exactly, it may take some time to be the discovered that somebody has n'tered your infrastructure or something like that if you're a big company, so like any kind of things like that.

But you you know, I'm absolutely positive that your details are immediately sold on too, so you by various other things too.

So it could be unrelated phishing emails, offers to buy things, or you know, anything else like medical.

You know, it can be something unrelated to but there'll be an up tick in you know.

Uh see enough the amount right, Yeah.

So you know, at the presentation yesterday that I had mentioned, a lady had asked a question and we were talking about how your information gets out there and data breaches is was the first one we talked about.

And it's like, you know, you can't control when a company gets breached, but you can control the information you give to a company, right, And you just want to make sure the information you're giving is absolutely necessary to do whatever it is you're doing with that company, and and don't be afraid to ask questions.

But you know, she she had asked the question, you know, is is government doing anything two to help stop this or to you know, to put things in play to make uh, to make the penalties harsher to make it more of a deterrent.

Have you heard of anything that that.

Maybe they're working on, maybe some recent bill or law that's been passed that.

Yeah, I know, you know, I don't know of any specific like recent bills, but I know that comes are a big, big problem for banks, and they are desperately trying to figure out the way how to intervene, you know, and and and there are many companies that you know, like I've just joined a company that is actually looking to account for the human element and how do we prevent how do we enterect being in a good way.

So I'm happy to say that I'm seeing more awareness around scams and how humans get exploited.

So that's one thing.

A second thing as well, like there are there are differences in companies, right, so anything governmental, anything to do with like heavy leak.

Uh, you know, spaces and entities that are that have to adhere to compliance, okay, you know, such as hip hop or medical or you know some other compliance for like you know, banking industry.

A lot of the times they keep those details what's called on prem on premise, which means that it's very difficult to infiltrate that if you're a malicious actor, okay, right, because the network doesn't allow like there's no communication between the outside network or you know, like things are not in a cloud and able.

To you know, easier to penetrate.

So yeah, the servers are like on the premise somewhere and they're not communicating with anything outside, or at least they limit the amount of things that can communicate with things like that.

So that's that doesn't exclude the insight fraud, right, Somebody on the insight could also you know, be a malicious actor as well.

So when you see these breaches that usually happened with things that perhaps don't have the most sensitive of details.

But if you do have your let's say Apple account, I have my credit card connected to it because I'm purchasing you know, so you do have this sensitive information even with with like these other things that get breached.

So it's really important to you know, like you said, maybe don't give them.

You know, a lot of these companies they know they aspa date of birth.

I always try to shield the mind.

Unless you're my bank or you're my doctor, I don't think you need to know exactly like you don't have to wish me a happy birthday, Like I'm okay, you know, I'll be fine.

Yeah, But those are the things like I would.

I always say to people just like inventor, inventor birthday, that it's not your birthday, but it's like maybe you know, same year, but not the same month or a day, or you can you know, like invent a birthday that you like when you have to put it on a form, you have to put it on a.

Form, right, and you want to be truthful, right, Yeah, And.

I think one big thing that I've come across, and it always really puzzles me, right, I when you work as a contractor, let's say you accept a contract at a company you're a consultant or something like that, you will be dealing with a recruiter that it's like part of a company, let's say, and that company will always say, hey, can you give me your partial day to birth and your last for digits of the SSM for our internal tool and this tool is just management tools so that they you know, they're like if they have two people with the same name, like they can differentiate.

Yeah, But then I'm thinking, why can't I just invent a pin right that it's not my assistant number, like forges by which you can call my bank and authenticate me.

You know, absolutely, I invent things for that too, like I'll have a digit that I give them that it's not my assess So, like, I think a lot of these companies don't really think from the security standpoint at all.

Well, right, you know, because they probably have a lot of different apartments, right, and you have one department that's going to do this and they feel they need this, and okay, well the last four of your Social Security number is going to be a way that I can that I can try.

I can, you know, track your account in case somebody has the same name.

Right.

And it's actually interesting you mentioned that I was at one of my doctors recently and they actually had two different patients, same name, Joyce Petrowski, same birth date, everything, day, month, year, but the middle initial was different.

And I was sitting there thinking, Wow, is this accurate or is this maybe somebody trying to impersonate me?

Right?

And it was interesting because they were telling me about the results of some lab work and I'm like, that test does not even sound familiar.

When was that lab work done?

And he told me the date, and I'm like, you know, you have someone else's information in my account because I wasn't even in the country on that date to go have labs done, right, And so that's how I found out about it.

Wow, so somebody use your medical insurance.

I don't know.

I don't know that was, you know, on them to figure out.

I think what happened was someone in the office saw the name in the birthday and ended up putting it in my account instead of the other person's account, not realizing they were that close.

Right, That's what I think.

But how easy would it be for someone.

Else to do that?

It could But so you're right, I totally agree.

Like the I R S they very well could use the last four digits of your Social Security number because they have everybody's right from filing taxes.

Yeah, but they came up with this identity theft pin identity protection pins right, the six digits.

They give you a new one every year.

And so they've they've gotten on board with that, and I exactly.

I mean, like you can just as easily in a job tool like I can invent a pin, so it'll be almost the same, like the same as my SSN number, right, that it's unique to me, and it's very unlikely somebody is going to have somebody with the same name data Bert or whatever.

Like it's right, they're exactly the same thing.

But like one thing that really, you know, like it's funny you mentioned your you know, like this mishap with the club results.

One of the things that I'm always really cautious about and always upsets me a little bit.

When you're queuing, let's say, you know, the hospital or a doctor's office or something, there's people behind you.

I can hear what the person is telling the receptionist.

Oh right.

They'll always say to you, hey, tell me your you know, pie the number or whatever and you know, date of birth.

And I'm like, I'm telling you all, like I'm telling you you know, and then I'm having to confirm my name and somebody behind.

Me here can hear it all, I know.

And like I was kind of thinking, if you want to just hang out, you can just like really take down these details and then tell it.

And it's you know, so I always take out my card and give it to them, you know, And like I'll say, I would prefer if you just take the information from here and if you want to confirm something that's not on a card, then like I'll confirm my you know.

I just show it to me and I'll say yes, no.

But I shouldn't be shouting my data birth and my life the number like for everybody like those.

You know, people don't realize how much commerce even if I if they just hang around, then they see that and and and take that down.

H you know, somebody can misuse it.

It may not even an organized criminal, but like, you know, I could be hit by okay, she was like in the radiology.

I could be hit by a scam that afternoon.

That'll look realistic because they'll quote because you were there, right, Yeah, it's not exactly.

It's not just perfect timing on their part.

They knew you were there and so then they can target you with a specific scam.

Yeah.

I mean, it's it's just crazy.

You know, I think you you almost have to try to think like a scammer, right and and I just think that you know what, I didn't.

I wouldn't put anything past them, right, So for them to be hanging out for an hour or so and not being you know, seen that they're hanging out in an office to hear.

I wouldn't put it past them.

I just I mean, you know, like it's probably not realistic, but you know, like because it's so easy to steal that information, you know, But I'm kind of yeah, it's sortally olver the other.

But then I'm thinking, if I was a smart camera, right and I wanted to make sure that I'm very realistic, I would do that, you know, knowing what I know about cameras and stuff, because the more you know of contextual information about somebody, the more realistic the call will sound, and the quicker you're going to get to what you need.

With that rate, the quicker you're going to make it more believable that they're going to think you're authentic and you are who you say.

You are, absolutely right.

It's now you mentioned something earlier that you were starting to see a lot more people seem to be more aware of the scams.

I think that's fantas fantastic because I think the first step in protecting yourself is one realizing that you are a target, and you very well could.

I don't care how smart you are, I don't care how savvy you are any I don't care how less amount of money, more amount of money you have.

Everyone's a target and everyone needs to realize that they are and that they could become a victim.

And then it gets into you need to be aware and educated, right, And so I'm so happy to hear that you're seeing that that people are more aware.

I'm seeing, like, I think what's exciting that's happening is that the organizations such as banks, my realizing that you know, scams at becoming a huge problem, right, and so like there's like where's even just a decade ago, or less than a decade ago, personal fraud was just kind of like dismissed by the fraud professionals, you know, it was like, well that's your response for you know, sending this money.

Whereas now I think there's there's I feel like there's more empathy coming from the professionals, and there's more interest in understanding of the manipulation that goes into it.

It's no longer I think we're changing the slight shift, you know, in how the society is viewing, you know, scam victimization.

And I'm really pleased about that.

Yeah, that's really great.

Yeah, I know one of our other advisory board members did a video on that recently, she had happened to see a post somebody made an anonymous post on the next door app about being a victim, and they kind of went through the things and not all the people that were commenting, but some of the people were just downright.

Mean and blaming hum or her.

For the situation they got into.

And it was like, you better be careful because you know what you might be the next one and then you're gonna.

Be like, oh wow, sh right.

Yet believe with a lot more empathy, I think.

Not just like I mean, that's just not very nice as a human being, but I also can explain that, I can explain it in a psychology way, right, So people do that, like we always we have to think about ourselves in a positive light that you know that kind of like posters are self esteem and it's like makes us a function in human being because if we didn't have a self esteem, we would be depressed and we wouldn't feel good about ourselves and we would not be you know, we wouldn't be good.

Yeah, exactly.

So people tend to have this belief that it wouldn't happen to them because they want to control, like they want to feel like they have the control.

It's an illusion of control.

It's a quality bias.

Right, People want to believe that they could control situations that around them, right, So, like you see that not just with the fraud victimization, but also with victims of sexual crimes.

Like she was out at ten pm.

She deserved it, she was wearing this dance, like we try to rationalize it.

And the reason why we rationalize it is maybe not that we want to be mean to that victim, but it's almost a fear in us, and we're controlling for that fear.

Like if I'm not out at ten pm, if I'm not wearing that.

Exactly, Yes, you're rationalizing why that couldn't happen to Yes, exactly.

So I think a lot of the times people turn on a broad victims because they want to believe it wouldn't happen to them.

But I've actually found that people who hold that belief, right, people who have a strong belief that comes only happened to valible people and stuff like that, actually more vulnerable because it makes them less careful.

You know, yeah, yes, it lets their guard down, right, you know.

And speaking of that, you know, I've seen some online.

I've just come across some different people, whether they're in the education unit, like maybe a college professor in their class is doing a program or project, that's what I want to say.

They're doing a project, you know, or something like that, and they come up with like a checklist, you know, like how vulnerable are you or how much at risk are you to be defrauded or scammed?

And it's like, on the surface, I don't like those.

And the reason is, I mean, some of the questions in there might be really good questions, and they might they might make you think about, well, yeah, I need to fix my email because I am at risk.

So it's an you know for that, But on the surface, I don't want people if they take it and get a really low score so they have like a low risk, I don't want them to let their guard down because the minute they let their guard down and think, oh I have a low risk, you know, it's very rare chance.

It's going to happen to me.

That's and it's going to happen, right, yeah.

I think, like I mean, depending on whether you're just doing research for the sake, like you know, like whether you want to see how many people feel it wouldn't happen to them, and then you manipulate it something else, and like if it's a real research or is it some kind of a thing.

Because every single fraud victim that I've ever spoken to, every single one, first thing they said to me, I never thought this would happen to me because I'm a smart person.

Yeah, right, And I think, like we need to learn from that, right.

So if you are asking a very literal question, do you think you're vulnerable?

Everybody's going to say no.

And it's only when they scammed that they realize their own vulnerability.

And some don't even realize that.

I've spoken to some victims who say, hey, I accept as part of life, and you know, I'm not going to change anything about me.

I still want to believe the rest in people.

So like a lot of the time is individual, but a lot of people only start paying attention to scam advice or fraud advice for education when they are scammed, because I think it's one of those things in our lives we like to feel because you're I think it's that social stigma that connects being a victim of a scam with being stupid or gullible.

Or something like that, right, and that we need to change the guest.

Right.

I mean that's and I'm trying in these presentations, right.

I mean it's like I try to reinforce scams have nothing to do with intelligence, because if they did, you know, yes, they have something to do with money, but if it was really based on intelligence, they would somehow be tricking you into taking an IQ test to see how you scored, and they're only going to go after the ones that score low.

Right, everybody's a target, right, everybody.

Well, I will tell you something quite interesting about that too.

Right, there is actually a research out there that, okay, hypothesizes that you know, in the olden day, like the olden days I'm talking about like a decade ago or more, right, there would still be emails that were like, hey, I'm a Nigerian print someone like wanting to you know, so there were a lot of like bank officials from Nigeria.

There was even like I think there was an email circulating like a Nigerian astronaut lost in space or something like that.

Okay, Yeah, they were incredibly stupid, incredibly just like non believable emails.

But the sad thing is, right, like there's a hypothesis and it was like a chess done by Microsoft that like sometimes commers sent such obvious scams to identify the most vulnerable victims.

So they are going after people who maybe have early on set on dementia or some other cognitive disabilities, or they really don't know they're not Internet sava so they've never come across anything like that, or you know, they're catching, you know, socifically identifying people who will then be hit with other scams, you know.

What I mean, that are really more vulnerable for reasons beyond their control.

So I think there is that the equivalent of an IQ test you mentioned, right, Yes, It's like there is definitely And you know, that's something that I always try to talk about when I go to talk to elderly people or people that are, you know, in the latest stages of your life.

I don't like the words elderly because you can be in the latest stages of your life and still be quite young in the mind and heart and you know, like exactly.

But one of the things that like why they're so so viciously targeted is because they're the stage of the life where they are financially stable.

The paid off their mortgages, they have ansions.

They are very lucrative.

So just by the sheer volume of scams send to people of their demographic will mean the statistically one will pay off.

That And that makes total sense.

And you know you can you can.

You can buy list of people.

You know, you can tailor it down based on demographics, you know, a bunch of different demographics and things.

And so they can buy list of people that are specifically sixty and above, or they could do eighty and above or ninety and above, thinking that maybe they'll be more vulnerable because things are going on beyond their control, right with their mind or their whatever.

Yeah, no, that's definitely And I think, like I think, you know, this is my hypothesis.

I don't have any solid evidence.

But for example, when you think about sextortion emails just even a few years ago, they were being sent via email to grown ups, you know, grown nuts saying like you've been caught, you know, like visiting webs that you shouldn't.

Your family is going to be notified, your people, your work are going to be notified.

So now sextortion is aimed at teenagers.

And then I was thinking to myself, like and it's it's really harmful.

But I was thinking to myself, if somebody targeted me as a teenager, I wouldn't have any money to give them, So like, why is it the teenagers are targeted?

Probably because you know, like teenagers nowadays get more money, they have more gadgets, they can leverage, you know, like they have more pocket money maybe that they can.

They have access they have access to or they have access to the exactly.

Yeah, because like if somebody hit me when I was sixteen, like I'm you know, I don't know what I would give them, my walkman or something.

I don't know.

Yeah, well true, I mean it's and plus you know, they say that your brain is not fully developed until you're what it was twenty five, Now they're saying twenty eight or something like that.

So yeah, you know, there's a lot of things.

But we've only got a couple of minutes left, and I want to get to this article that you wrote.

Was it it's.

The data breaches, a chance for opportunistic scammers and what you should watch for.

It looks like it was September third of twenty twenty one.

Yeah, I wrote it.

I think, Yeah, like I ended up writing that article.

It's still current now in terms of advice.

I think it was the data bridge by Tim Mobile at that time, and that after that data breach, I've seen tons and tons of like people texting me, you know, for big bushing scams and stuff like that.

But like all of the advice in that article, if you share with your you know, like quite the audience, that advice still stands.

Okay.

So that's why I kind of republished it recently on my LinkedIn because it's you know, it happens up to every data bridge, you.

Know, exactly.

Yeah, And I do have it in the show notes.

I have the actual link that somebody will be able to access.

It was a really really good article.

You know, beware of social media campaigns and websites pretending to be fraud recovery services.

I think I just saw when I was download hoading some public service announcements from the FBI.

I think one of the ones they had in the last maybe three or four years dealt exactly with that, you know, fraudulent companies trying to entice you that they can get your money back when they're obviously not going to be able to the only people that can do that are going to be law enforcement and or the attorneys or the attorney general, district attorneys whoever are doing the prosecution.

So it's also very very difficult to recover funds.

Oh, it is absolutely, I mean the organized crime, yeah, yeah, it's There was a couple here in Arizona that were arrested I think maybe two years ago, three years ago, and they went through all of their you know, hearings and all that stuff, and it was for I think medicare fraud and stuff like that.

And they had a lot of assets.

You know, they were here in the States, and so they had used the money to like buy vehicles and houses, and so they had a lot of property that was then able to be seized and sold.

But it's sold for pennies on the dollars, so if anybody was getting anything back, you were only getting pennies on the dollar back.

But the majority of these scams, the money is out of the country and it's gone, right.

Yeah, I would say like a couple doing that, that's a small time crook, you know, like organized crime, like big butchering scams that originate in Vietnam, Like the money is gone and like you know, and the cross border element makes it very difficult to recover anything.

Well, it does, because you're adding a whole other layer into the investigation.

You have to work with that local law enforcement, and sometimes they're very happy to work with our law enforcement.

Other times they're not as excited.

They have bigger fish to fry per se, right, and so they're not necessarily interested in allocating resources to help our law enforcement trying to find these perpetrators.

Yeah, it just adds a whole other layer of complexity to it and makes it all the more difficult.

But we are getting to the end of the time.

It went really quickly.

I know it always does.

It's always fun.

Yeah, So thank you so much for coming back on.

I really appreciate it, and I want to have you back on on a regular basis.

You have has your new book come out?

I know you said you were working on updating it.

Yeah, I'm updating it.

There's no date yet, but you might as well wait for the for the updated version because I added a lot of things on AI.

How AI is going to affect us and stuff like that.

So, okay, there are a lot more case studies that have of newer scams and things like that.

So I would say, if you think you know purchasing the book, uh, just wait, wait a couple of months.

Okay, there'll probably be a new audition.

And the book is the Psychology of fraud, persuasion and scam techniques.

Scam techniques.

So is it going to be like have a number two after it, or volume two or something.

It's going to be volume two, and it's like a different color, Like I have a trademark image that I love.

It's the same image, but it's going to be a different color.

It's going to be purple instead of turquoise, so you can recognize if it's going to be a second edition.

Okay, all right, very good my book.

Now it's still okay, But like if you are thinking of purchasing, I would wait for the second edition.

Just yeah, there'll be a lot more information and with AI that's huge, and it's so confusing to tell what's real and what's artificially generated.

And it'll be out really quickly, and you know what's you could probably write a book every day, right because this stuff changes so quickly.

True, maybe not a book, but like a short short.

A short novel every day every week or whatever, but right, because it changes so rapidly it does.

Anyways, Well, thank you so much.

I really appreciate you being on and we're going to have you back soon.

Okay, awesome, all right, thank you, take care.

All right, thank you everybody for joining us today.

I hope you got some more information on data breaches and what to do.

Doctor Martina Dove is a valuable source of information.

The link to her article is going to be in the show notes, so click on that and read her article.

But just know when data breaches happen and you get that information or you hear about it, just know that there's going to be an uptick in people trying to email you, the phishing or the texting they call the schmishing, or you know, the voice over the phone and all of that stuff.

So you just have to be a little bit more on aware of that.

You could have an uptick in that and be on the lookout.

You should always have your guard up and be on the lookout for what's going on.

Don't forget to get on our website, Roseadvocacy dot org, look for the resources, follow us on social media, and sign up for our newsletter.

Thank you, and you guys will be enjoying Brian Watson for the next few weeks.

All right, take care.

Well that's all the knowledge for this episode.

Tune in every Tuesday at eight am Pacific time on KFOURHD Radio at KFOURHD dot com as Joyce explores a variety of knowledge.

So you have the power to make scam protection your healthy habit and until then, feel free to reach out to Joyce and let's talk about scams.