I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years writing about true crime.

And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes.

And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a twenty first century lens.

Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

This is buried bones.

Hey, Kate, how are you today?

I'm great, Paul?

How about you?

I am hanging in there.

What's been going on?

Well?

I saw this little newspaper article that said that the company you worked for had been able to uncover the DNA found on the nice sheaf in the Idaho murders.

And you were very good at keeping secrets, because I would have.

I would have.

I can't believe I didn't get that out of you.

It didn't even occur to me.

What can you tell us?

I know some of this is still top secret, right, you know, I'm very limited in terms of what I can say about that case and Authoram's involvement.

I will just say that AUTHORAM was involved.

I'd host State Police Crime Lab did the initial processing, and then of course once they got a DNA sample from the nice sheath, a part of that sample went to AUTHORAM, who was able to develop the genealogy compatible SNIP profile and start at the genealogy process.

As generic and non top secret way is possible.

Can you explain how much do you need?

Is this a misperception from people?

Well, obviously there was enough to test.

Okay, okay, because you know, with the law enforcement lab, you know, they generated a profile that went up into COTIS and then authorm was able to generate a profile, so there was enough to at least sample that DNA extract twice.

Now I can't say how much they actually got out of that sample, but modern DNA technology is extraordinarily sensitive, so we are talking on the order of like one hundred pakograms.

This is where I don't want to say single cell sensitive, but in essence we are down at a level to where you have DNA from a few cells that under the right conditions you can generate a profile and be able to forensically go after the database, whether it be on the law enforcement side with COTIS or on the genealogy side with like jed match and family Tree DNA.

And this is where I think it gets a little tricky with all the online speculation about cases like these is you know, I had been reading people saying, you can't get enough on here, that's the only thing that is indicating, you know, that Colberger is involved.

And then of course we saw what happened, you know, where he pleads guilty and admits to all of it.

So I feel like making assumptions where you are not properly trained and then spewing it out everywhere it can be a little bit dangerous.

I know it's probably exciting and fun, but still it really to me felt like this is this was too much speculation around that particular part of science.

Correct, you know.

And this is where like I get pulled in by various if you want to call them, online, but even news type organizations to be the talking head.

And I asked and have said, I will only comment when there's official information that is put out by law enforcement, the courts, et cetera.

So for the Coldberger case.

The only time I commented publicly about that case was when the affidavit for arrest was issued, and I only commented about the facts that the investigator wrote in the affidavit that went to a magistrate in order to get the PC the arrest warrant.

There is so much speculation when it comes to looking at cases through whatever medium you're consuming.

I will tell you just cases during the course of my career which were covered by news organizations, you know, where you actually have reporters or journalists that are trying to convey the facts, but because they don't understand maybe the underpinnings of the science, they write things in their articles or they say things during the news broadcast which is factually wrong from somebody who's got the forensics background, and you're going, Nope, that's not exactly what that is conveying.

I even way back during the oj Simpson case, I was interviewed by a Bay Area news reporter and I saw them take an answer that I gave to one question and they spliced in a different question and used my answer and it was factually wrong.

And I was thinking, you're making me look like an idiot, And I don't know if that was a mistake they thought, oh, that answer is better with this question, or they were just trying to make something more sensational, you know, which would be absolutely negligent.

You want to report the facts.

So that is where you know, I've got a tremendous history with you know, the online communities related to looking at these cases, you know, whether it be Zodiac or Golden State Killer.

And there are some amazingly bright individuals that are well intentioned in this online slothing community, but oftentimes the discussions that occur and some of the conclusions of opinions that the online people form just don't correlate with the facts that are in the case file.

And they don't have access to the complete case files.

They're just relying upon, well, what was reported in the media, whether it be a TV show or a newspaper article, et cetera.

And again it's just where now you got to You got to be careful.

Yeah, absolutely, And from the journalist's perspective, you know, we train our students at the University of Texas.

You need to go back and you don't do just your own fact checking.

You should always call the people who you're interviewing and say, Paul, listen, can I go over some of the stuff that you said and make sure that I've framed it correctly.

And I think a lot of people don't do that, and that's really what you should do.

I remember submitting something for The New York Times.

I was writing an article about something, and it was unreal the amount of fact checking that they did and called me back and said, where did you get this source?

And I was thinking, that's that's the vigor, you know.

I know it always isn't like that at every place, but that's what you should be looking for, especially something like this.

So anyway, my whole point of this is that I was surprised when I saw it because you were so tight lipped.

So now I think the audience knows if you have a secret, a juicy secret, you can trust Paul Holes with that secret.

Well, but that's also part if you take a look at where I'm at, you know, even though I'm in this true crime genre, I am still consulting with law enforcement.

And if I burn law enforcement and let's say, divulge something publicly that they do not want to have divulge, I'm shooting myself in the foot with my credibility moving forward, as I want to continue work in unsolved cases with law enforcement.

So yes, I have.

You know, I consult on a lot of cases.

There's a lot of information on cases, some high profile, some not that I can't discuss.

You know, those are facts, and I may never be able to discuss them even after the case is solved, just because of some of the aspects related to the circumstances of the case.

Well, now I know, and I promise to divulge everything about this case coming up because it's a big, big case.

I've actually I normally will say this is a listener's suggestion.

This is multiple listeners suggestions.

I've heard about this.

It's not like Dahlia.

I've heard about this case for a very long time and I had never really gotten into it.

So I think that you'll you'll find this one to be really interesting.

So let's go ahead and set the scene.

Okay, we are back on a train.

We've had a couple of trained stories now, which I love.

I love Agatha Christie loved putting people on trains and cruise ships and trapping them in different areas.

It's a mystery.

So anytime I see we have a train story.

I get excited.

So and we've talked about you haven't had a ton of train experience.

I know, we talked about the Pike's Peak I think is the one of the train things trams that you had been on, maybe.

The COG Railway, which if you come to Colorado Springs, I highly suggest you do that, preferably in the summertime because when you get up to fourteen thousand feet, even in the summertime, it's freezing.

And if it's in the wintertime, yeah, no, it's miserable when you step outside.

But it's an amazing experience to ride up Pike's Peak and go through the forest and then get above the tree line once you get to a certain altitude.

So that's in terms of riding the train.

That's one.

And then of course the Napa Wine Train I've been on several times.

Several times.

AnyWho, we're back on a train.

This is LA and it is nineteen thirty one, so it's seven forty five in the morning, and this is a train called the Golden State Limited, which pulls into Los Angeles Central Station, and it came from Phoenix, where I had departed at eight o'clock the night before.

I've always dreamed of being on an overnight train.

I thought that sounded very romantic.

I'm not sure this is the romantic train.

I would be thinking.

This sounds like, you know, just sort of a typical train where you're falling asleep sitting straight up.

But I don't know.

But this is not a luxury train, it's my understanding.

So it's coming from Phoenix.

There were two large black steamer trunks that were loaded onto the train when in Phoenix the night before, and nobody really knew who who left the trunks.

They just knew the porters just knew they had to load the trunks onto the train and they will become a central point here for us.

So the train rolls in in the morning and the porters start walking around where the carriages that's carrying all of these pieces of luggage.

There are the trunks, and they smell.

It's not a good sign.

Yeah, it's not a good sign for the own or for you know, the people trying to unload it.

Okay, so I mean, I know you know where this is heading.

But I'll be dramatic and we'll talk about it in more detail.

There's a large trunk and a smaller trunk.

The larger trunk has been oozing, and both trunks are emitting a foul, putrid odor, and the night baggage man thinks that a passenger has tried to cross state lines from Arizona into California with contraband deer meat.

And you know, venison smuggling was a big deal.

You weren't allowed to do that.

And so they're assuming, I mean, we know for our show this is not deer meat, but that's the first assumption.

They're not going to the depraved just yet.

He alerts the district baggage agent to hold these trunks for further inspection, and they don't.

Again, they don't know who brought them on board to SCHET, but they're assuming they're going to get claimed, hopefully at some point.

So this is this timeline to me, is wild.

So this train gets in at seven forty five, let's say eight o'clock.

They smell things.

Now we're at noon, so we're talking about four hours of sitting here in it's California, it's a little bit warmer, and this stuff is smelling, and nobody wants to open it because it's locked with a key.

They can't pick it.

And I've tried to pick my luck because I locked it accidentally on my trunk and I had no luck picking it.

So now we're at noon and there's a woman and a college aged young man who approached the front office and they say, these are our trunks, and a clerk recognizes this guy.

The college age young man is Burton McKinnel, So Burton McKinnel, and he is a USC student University of Southern California.

They recognize him because he had been kind of off and on again helping station agents load and unload baggage over the last Christmas holiday just to make extra money.

So they say this smells to the man and the woman to burten in this woman they say, these are just personal items.

I don't know why they smell, but they're leaking.

They don't have a good excuse.

There's a stain at this point on the concrete.

They might still have been thinking about deer meat contraband, but there are flies swarming the stenches, nauseating at this point.

Look at your photo packet that I sent you the PDF.

So I see a photo that has two trunks, one that is larger that is laying horizontally, so it's basically laying in a position that these trunks typically would be in order to open it.

And then the smaller trunk is on its end, so it's more vertical.

These trunks appear to be black or very dark color, with a lot of decorative beating around the edges of each face, as well as ornamental latches and hinges, and have the protective metal corner covers.

You know, so they're designed for shipping.

There's no question about it.

You know, these are true steamer trunks.

In this photo, both trunks are completely closed.

I don't see anything indicating that there has been attempt to open them.

At this point.

There appears to be a sticker on the front of the larger trunk, but I can't make out whatever emblem or design is on that sticker.

And then there's a man who is squatted down next to the larger trunk, who is dressed in a suit and has a hat on.

And I just don't know my hats, but it's one of those.

It's not a top hat, it's it's.

A it's just your standard cop hat, right.

He looks like he's in a position of authority.

I guess that's all I can say.

And then it appears that he's focusing in on something on the larger trunk.

YEP, and they are growing more.

We're concerned because it is spilling out all over.

At this point, the district baggage agent says, open the trunks, and you know, they say, we don't want to be liable for any kind of damage to the items, and so she they asked this couple, but they say that the keys are at home, and so we'll leave and then we'll come back.

And they let them leave because they don't have proof of anything except of a stinky couple of trunks.

I think one of the questions that's got to be going through their head if they're thinking this is, you know, smuggled venison.

You know, it's only been lesson maybe half a day, a little more than half a day since it left Phoenix.

Obviously, whoever is smuggling this venison didn't package it appropriately in order to keep it preserved, so it's actually useful to whoever's going to grab it on the other end.

And then this timeline gets even longer.

Four thirty they haven't come back, so you know, again I go back to the timeline.

They arrive at seven forty five in the morning.

Now we're at four point thirty, and the district baggage agent, the guy we saw in the photo, says that's it, and they called the police.

Nine hours afterward, Detective Frank Ryan comes at five o'clock.

He immediately recognizes the dark ooze as blood, and he picks the lock and he's going to open up the trunk in a second.

But at what stage of of because you guys know, come on, there's body in at least one of these trunks.

But at what stage of decomp does it turn brown?

Where you have a guy who's in his mid forties who doesn't recognize that's this nasty stuff on the concrete as blood.

I mean, I guess it really does it turns that kind of brown?

Well, there's a I mean, blood can assume a whole spectrum of colors from the very bright red to black and anything in between.

And then if you get mold growing on it or funk, you know, fungus, you most certainly you can have different appearances that that blood stain can assume.

Now, if you have blood that's leaking out of this trunk and it's not bright red.

Then you know it's it is.

It's sat for a while and with the smell with the flies, there is you know, putre faction that has occurred.

There's a decompositional process that is occurring, and it's it's hard to say it, you know, right now, just because the blood is dark, Well, how long has it been, you know?

Or what were they actually seeing?

You know?

Was this something where you have blood that is seeping due to injuries to a body inside and then now it's leaking out through this trunk.

It's not fresh.

That's probably the only thing that I could conclude at this point, just due to the color.

But at what stage decomposition I can't say, just based off of the color of the blood.

Okay, So they look inside in the big trunk.

There is a piece of a rug, there are books, there are assorted papers, and there are shreds of bloodstained women's clothing.

They look under a handmade quilt and they find the body of a dark haired woman.

I don't have a photo of this person, but I'll just describe it.

So she's wearing pink pajamas, she has curled in the fetal position, and she is in a terrible, bad state of decomposition.

It's hard to make out her features on her face because there's so much bloating, and this is a whole body, unlike who we're going to discover next.

What time of year is this.

It's nineteen thirty one, It.

Is October nineteenth, but it has been unusually warm, both in Phoenix, which was the origination, and then in la which is the destination.

Right, So these trunks, of course have been transported from Phoenix to la in unair conditioned environment, so they even though it's overnight, there'd be some cooling, of course, you know, But it sounds like with the bloating the smell that this woman was likely dead for a period of time before being put into the trunk, is what I am guessing without actually seeing the photos.

Well, maybe this next bit will clarify things for you.

There is in the smaller trunk.

When they open it up they pick the lock, there are sheets of paper smeared with blood, and they are laying on top of a light cotton sheet.

And there is a woman's body from the head to the navel only okay, her arms are crossed across her breasts in the center of the trunk is where she is.

On either side of the head, there are two bundles of women's clothing.

Each bundle contains a foot and a leg, and the rest of her body is missing.

This is significantly less bloated, and the police say it's because there's less fluid in her.

Now, I don't know why the why that's the case.

And we will have photos of this woman.

I just didn't know when you wanted to see them.

Now when they are describing bloating when a body decomposes, and you know you live in Texas and you've probably seen this, so I'm not sure you've paid much attention.

But if you watch roadkill and animals on the side of the road, and then over the course of the next few days, you see that animal blow up like a balloon.

It's legs end up sticking out, sort of like a raccoon.

I've never seen that, and I hope to never see that, Paul, But thank you.

For start paying attention.

Oh my gosh, No, the vultures get to it.

I think beforehand they drag a deer off the side of the road here, So anyway.

Yeah, yeah, there could be mitigating factors out there, but no but you know a lot of that that that abdominal bloating is coming from the gases that are generated by the bacteria that are within the intestines, and so now you get a lot of these gases that haven't been able to escape yet, and so the body bloats up and so the abdomen ends up being very distended.

Here in this case with the part of the women's body.

Well, now what you've got is you've you've an essence opened up the body, so the gases aren't being contained, so they're the bloating aspect isn't part of what is that body is experiencing because it's already been I hate to use the term popped, but in essence, that's what's happened.

I've been in a morgue with a very bloated body and the pathologist came over with a scalpel and just stabbed the abdomen and then it was just a it's just like a balloon.

Disclaimer at the beginning of this somehow, please don't be eating while we have this discussion.

You know, But but that's yeah, I think that that's you know, what is going on here versus what did you say they they drew a conclusion.

That they said that the body had significantly the second one had significantly less bloating because they had said there's less fluid and it's because she was dismembered and the blood must have come out at the actual scene versus this whole body in the first trunk.

Yeah, you know, they're they're not they're not factually correct, But you know, the dismemberment is is really the reason why they're not seeing the bloating.

Now, I don't I don't know if the body is showing signs of decomposition that is equivalent to the other body in the larger trunk or not.

You know, So there would be other signs that could be looked for, such as marbling through the blood vessels, skin slippage, et cetera, that might indicate that this dismembered body was possibly at the same stage decomposition as the whole body in the larger trunk.

But right now, I don't know.

Do you want to see photos of the body, And what I will tell you is the most to me, the most gruesome autopsy photos I've ever seen, And of course we will not be putting on social media.

Sure, or do you want to hear more about what's found in other body parts and stuff like that in the other pieces of luggage.

Which one first, Well, let's complete the luggage and then I can go and take a look at the autopsy photos.

Okay, So in these trunks there are photos of the victims, and I'll tell you about them in a little bit.

So there a detective finds a green saw edged bread knife, so serrated knife, I'm assuming, with a blade about ten inches long, and two women's purses.

One purse contains three twenty five caliber shells exploded.

The other purse contains a fourth shell and a spent bullet and a few wisps of hair sticking to the bloody glass of a picture frame.

And then there's more, but I don't know if you wanted to talk about that stuff first.

You know, this is where it gets suspicious, is that you have in one purse you have three twenty five caliber cartridge cases.

You know, you use the term shell, but technically it's a cartridge case.

So this is a this is a round of ammunition that has been discharged and the cartridge case the shell is remaining inside the gun, or if it's a semi auto.

It's been ejected out, so somebody's taken time to scoop up these three cartridge cases and put them in this purse.

Now, we don't know if these cartridge cases are related to the homicide of these victims yet or not.

Then you have another purse that has a twenty five caliber cartridge case plus a bullet.

And then you said there was some hair associated.

In this time period, it was common for you to kind of have there's like a favorite motto or favorite phrase, and you would print it out or have it printed and then frame it.

There is that kind of a frame with a motto that nobody can read because there's blood and broken glass all over it.

And there's some hair sticking to the bloody glass of this picture frame.

No interesting.

I don't know if they were hit by this, somebody was hit over the head with this frame or how does it end up in the trunk.

This seems messy.

Yeah, that's I think it's hard to say without taking a look at the photos.

You know, this is part of you know, processing this trunk is documenting every layer as you remove items, you know, and this may have been an item that was in this trunk before the body was placed in there, and that's the reason why it's broken.

That's why it has blood.

And maybe some hair got caught up, you know, on that you know, or it was something that at the crime scene, you know, where the victim's killed.

Whatever happened caused blood and hair to get onto this frame, if you will, and that the offender noticed and said, well, I got to clean things up and place it into the trunk.

Who knows, you know, there's all sorts of possibilities right now.

Okay, well, let's talk about some more discoveries before we finally leave this awful crime scene.

Inside of the in the waiting area of this train station, someone notices behind the door of the women's bathroom there are two more items.

One is a woman's worn tan suitcase and another is a hat box.

And in a minute, I have photos of all four of the items together, so you can kind of see size and stuff like that.

Where are these found?

These are found in the train bathroom area.

So in the depot.

Yeah, so as if someone got off the train had these two items and left them behind, got it the women's bathroom or maybe they're not connected, I mean, but they think this is weird.

Why would somebody abandon these nice items exactly?

You know, so you have to pay attention into it, yep.

Okay, So there's another detective who shows up.

His name is David Davidson.

Okay, David Davidson.

He arrives on the scene at eleven twenty pm.

And so, I mean, I just I don't know why I think this is incredible, but it is sort of is that eight hours or something, almost ten hours after this train forced pulls in.

In his report, he says that he opened the old tan suitcase and there is another section of the body that had been dismembered.

It is the lower female torso so waist to knees, clothed in pink pajamas and wrapped in a sheet and a blanket in this suitcase.

Okay, And I'm going to want to see these pretty soon because I can't imagine being able to hide somebody in a suitcase or any of these items really that big, I guess.

So you know, I don't know what size suitcase we're looking at, but a larger suitcase, if you pass package a lower body of maybe a smaller human, absolutely can hold that.

I mean, that doesn't surprise me.

At all, okay, let me tell you a couple more things, and then i'll show you.

I think it's gonna be three photos in a row, and then we'll get to the autopsy stuff.

So this torso is missing intestines and a bladder, and in the hat box.

So the torso's in the brown little suitcase.

In the hat box there is an empty surgeon's bag, which has also on the side surgical dressing, one old kit of surgeons instruments, one twenty five caliber cult automatic pistol, several pieces of women's wearing apparel is what they called it, forty rounds with one box Winchester twenty five automatic cartridges, and miscellaneous cosmetics.

What is happening?

I mean, it's just like haphazard throw this in here and so makeup in here along with the torso.

I don't get it.

Well, you know, I would say, at this point, obviously we have two dead females.

The offender had access to a large steamer box that an adult feel I'm assuming this these are adult females at this point, but I don't know that they are.

Okay, So the larger steamer box he was able to place a whole body into.

But now he's got another victim that in order to be able to transport, he's having to cut that victim up and distribute her body parts across the two the smaller steamer trunk and the tan suitcase.

And my understanding is no body parts are in the hat box right now.

No body parts as far as I know, are in the hat box right.

So the hat box is containing the what he's seeing as the evidence of the crime.

He's got the pistol that, at least caliber wise, is matching the spent rounds found in these two purses, presuming those purses are each of the victims purses, so that potentially could be the murder weapon.

We don't know how these victims are killed yet, but that's that's a possibility.

And then he's got the source of the ammo.

He's got the wind the box of Winchester twenty five caliber ammo, and then the surgeon's bag.

And you know this this is interesting.

Does this mean that this guy actually does have medical training or is this just something he had access to and utilize the implements in order to dismember the bodies.

So he's trying to get the victim's body away from Phoenix.

He's trying to get the primary items of evidence.

Yeah, so he's in essence, it sounds like he's trying to clean up a crime scene out in Phoenix.

It's just like, why put all this on a train and ship it and then you have people coming to claim these items.

So that's that's intriguing, you know.

But he's he's leaving some clues.

You know, there's definitely investigative leads that can be followed with this.

It's definitely an intriguing case.

You got here, Kate, Well.

There you go.

I know that's the goal pull holes, As I say, how often.

Now I have a question the lower female torso that we were just talking about waste to knees and they say it's missing intestines and bladder.

Is that significant or is that whoops, it fell behind and I don't have time to pack it up to these two things, or we don't know.

Well at this point don't know.

You know, the bisection of this second victim who's in the smaller trunk, don't have an accounting for what all is present within the upper part of her body.

But the fact that they are saying intestines are gone, the bladder's gone.

This is something that the offender, for whatever reason, did not include in the transport.

Now, when you bisect a body, particularly you know, below the stomach level, the primary organ that you're having to deal with are these testines, and they have a tendency to kind of be messy.

And I could see where this person's going.

This is going in a garbage bag and I'm going to screw it, dump it somewhere else, versus trying to package that up and try to squeeze it into the trunk.

It may just be a practical reason why the intestines and the bladder just may be part of the person.

You know, going down inside the body to in essence remove the intestines by cutting through the rectum area and is also taking the bladder out at the same time.

You know, I see, you know, when you watch autopsies, you see how pathologists will go through and remove the internal organs and they're having to go down low down to where you know, the rectum and the bladder are in order to access those organs.

What kind of person do members?

I've never understood that.

I can understand almost every type of murder.

What's the word where you drain the blood.

Exanguination, I think is how you say.

I somehow can wrap my head around all of that, but not some who can dismember who's you know, not a surgeon or somebody who's trained, And we don't know what that is, but it just seems like a totally different mindset to me.

It's a mindset I think for most offenders that resort to dismemberment, they are in a mode of self preservation and they're trying to get rid of this body.

You know.

I have a case, the Helser case out in Conquered California and an elderly couple and then the girlfriend of one of the offenders.

They were horrifically dismembered, but they were dismembered using like power saws.

The legs are being cut off at the thigh level.

You know, there was no careful dissection that is occurring at all, and that was literally to package them up in smaller duffel bags and dump them into Delta.

So, you know, I think for most that dismemberment is just a practical aspect to be able to transport bodies, and some have the stomach to be able to handle that.

Some may have some experience, whether they're butchers, medical training, have hunters dealing with dressing animals or serial predators that grew up torturing animals and dismembering those bodies, so they have sort of a comfort with dealing with that.

But then you also have offenders that resort to dismemberment, and they're going off and throwing up during the dismemberment process.

Okay, I have the boring photos, which I know you want to see.

So if you look at you like all photos, if you look at pages two, three, four, you see the bag that hat box.

Yeah, so the photo of the hat box.

This is a photo showing this circular case with the lid open.

The case looks like it's on the order of maybe eight inches eight to ten inches deep.

I'm surprised at sort of the inner cloth that's inside this case.

It's got like a pocket that's been put into the lid.

So, I mean, this is a a fairly nice travel case, if you will, for smaller items.

You know, they're calling it a hat case, but you could definitely use this to transport all sorts of things.

You know, looking at these these steamer trunks and this hat case, these weren't cheap items.

This does not look like riff raft type of items.

You know, these look like somebody who is willing to pay decent money for travel purposes.

You know.

In this photo of the hat case, there is one of the purses.

Look at the photo on page three, it looks like that.

I think that's a corset.

And then it looks like there's some bullets posted up above.

This is just this looks just like a dump of all the evidence they found.

I see a shoe and that second one of jacket.

Maybe it's like somebody packed to go to Vegas and it's left back quickly or something.

First you commented about these bullets, So that's that's actually a display of different calibers of bullets that are often found in laboratories, particularly back in the day.

So what you'll see is you'll see these bullets mounted on this board and they have a number associated with them, and then over to the right you see the number and it's going to be the sort of the brand of the bullet, the caliber of the bullet, et cetera.

So this would be like a reference chart that a firearms examiner back in the day would use and go, oh, this twenty five caliber matches this make and model of bullet.

So they sometimes they wouldn't automatically say, oh, that's definitely a twenty five or that's definitely a forty five.

They would sometimes they need to chart.

There's measurements that they would take.

You know, some of these bullets when they're used in shootings and recovered out of victim's body or from a crime scene are deformed, and so they have to weigh the bullet.

Do they have all the bullet?

They have to pay attention, is it just a lead bullet, does it have jackety gun it?

What kind of jacketing, does it have any neuraling.

There's all sorts of characteristics that they would use to try to identify, you know, the make of that particular bullet as well as the caliber.

And so that's what we're seeing here.

But kind of in the foreground is you know, other items of evidence, and you mentioned what would be described as a course set, which I'm assuming is this white object clothing item that's in front.

I think, but I'm not sure and I didn't read that on the description.

I'm not one hundred percent sure.

Yeah, I couldn't identify it's obviously an item of clothing, but it appears that there are some blood stains on it that appear to be drops that have hit this item at an angle based off of the you know, these little pointers of the blood on the edges, and in the photograph, a couple of these blood drops obviously hit this item.

Whether it be they were projected or this item just happened to be grazed by these blood drops from from right to left.

And then yeah, I see the shoe.

There appears to be maybe a jacket with fur collar or fur something.

And then other items appear to be piled you know this this photo, oh, it's actually on butcher paper.

So they have removed these items from one of the cases, I don't know which case and dumped them on this butcher paper.

This really isn't the way that you would document things.

It's kind of a pile back off.

Of the nineteen thirty one detectives.

They're doing the best they can pull.

So anyways, okay, and then the next item, the next photo is just the two steamer trunks, and I'm assuming the tan suitcase that's a lower.

Torso is where that was in that smaller suitcase.

You know, what's interesting with this photo.

I've already described the two steamer trunks, but you can see all the scratches.

These steamer trucks are well traveled.

They're not brand new.

They have been used in just normal daily life by whoever owned them.

And then the tan suitcase.

It's harder to say what it is composed of.

It almost appears that it might have like a leather type exterior with again the metal corner protective corners, as well as what appeared to be leather straps which might be used to help hold the suitcase clothes in case the latches fail or something.

But it also has extensive wear to it.

This did not happen just on the train from Phoenix to LA.

This suitcase is also well used.

Let me tell you about the autopsy of the first woman who was in the fetal position.

I don't have photos of her.

I told you we'll have photos in a second of the other woman.

So the LA's chief autopsy surgeon is a guy named doctor A.

F.

Wagner, so we'll just say doctor Wagner.

Okay.

He conducts the autopsy and he says that the woman in a larger trunk was killed from a single contact wound to the head, and the muzzle of the gun had been held so close to her left temple that there were powder burns around the entrance wound.

And later a ballistics expert would also testify that the bullet had been fired downward and backward.

There were no other bruises or scratches or nothing else with her body.

And they identify her as a thirty two year old woman named Agnes Anne Leroy, and we're going to call her Anne.

All right?

And where is this contact wound to her head?

Is it in the temple the forehead?

It said it had been held so close to her left temple that there were powder burns around the entrance wound.

But what is the downward and backward kind of standing over her from behind?

So the downwards and backwards is relative to her body in the anatomic position.

Everybody has seen sketches where you have a human body that is standing up, arms are out, palms facing forward, and so the pathologist is looking at this trajectory and when it's downwards, it indicates that it's going from high to low within her head, and backwards is from front to back.

Now, we can't position the shooter relative to the victim, because we don't know the position the victim is in at the time she was shot.

Is she standing up, as she bent over, as she's sitting, is she laying on her side, So the downwards and backwards is just the trajectory through her head at this point in time the contact wound to her left temple.

This is what we see in executions where the gun, the muzzle of the gun, the front of the barrel is pressed hard up against the victim's head and then the shot is fired.

What ends up happening is is not only does the bullet go into the victim's head, but all the gases from the firearms charge go inside the head and oftentimes, if there isn't an exit wound where the gases can escape on the other side of the head, they will escape out that entrance wound.

And so you'll see this tearing of the scalp around the entry wound.

That's the gases escaping out the entry wound and the powder burns because it's so close.

Now what you have is you have the singing of the tissues.

You have possibly fractured hair.

When you start talking firearms.

This is truly what we call an explosive level force, so hair will shatter, and so it's not uncommon to have shattered hair adhere to the gun or be found on the shooter's sleeve as an example, and you could potentially and of course there's potential gunpowder, both partially burned as well as unburned gunpowder being found within the entry wound.

And the reason her head is intact is because this was a low powered weapon.

It's a twenty five caliber.

If this had been something like a three fifty seven, her head would have been blown open.

Okay, let's talk about the second woman because we will have photos.

So let me just tell you what would they say in the autopsy, and then you can see the photos.

She had also been shot.

The woman in the trunk.

Her name is Hedvig Sammy Samuelson, so we're going with Sammy.

She is twenty four.

She had also been shot.

One bullet entered her left chest and lodged in her left arm, a second bullet penetrated the ring finger of her right hand, and a third bullet was shot into her left temple at close range.

The third bullet is the cause of death.

There's also a superficial puncture wound in her left side of her neck.

It's not clear what the instrument would have been.

Who knows, but it was flimsy, so it could have been something in the small trunk or in the mediums trunk.

I don't know.

Dismemberment.

According to the surgeon why to the autopsy had taken place within hours of death, and that is what we know medical wise about what happened to these two women.

He as far you know, in terms of the gunshot wounds, she has an entry into her left chest, but the bullet is found lodged in her left arm.

So this is around that enters into her chest, exits and then goes into her arm.

This is a common thing that really all it does is just indicate her arm is in wherever the exit wound was was in the path of that bullet after it exited out her chest, the right ring finger having a bullet impact to it.

That may be because she's in a defensive posture.

It may not be, but that's something that we do see.

When you know somebody has a gun pointed at them, they put their hands up and now when the shots are fired, their hands end up getting hit by the rounds and then she's executed.

You know, she's got the gunshot wound to the left temple, just like the first victim.

Now they're not describing it as a hard contact, right, that's.

Not what I saw now, not hard contact.

Okay, but it's probably a very close shot.

And so she's executed as well.

But for whatever reason, you know, it appears that she's aware she's being shot and she is reacting to that shot before she's executed.

The first victim isn't showing that at all.

Is it possible to sequence these shots?

And this is this is just speculation.

There's no hard science, if you will, in terms of this reconstruction.

But with the first victim, you know, no reaction, no defense of posture wounds or anything like that.

So it's possible.

You've have these two women, maybe both you know, asleep, are both awake whatever.

First victim is executed, and then the second victim notices this, and now she's react acting and is now getting shot and it's taking multiple shots because she's moving, and then now the offender is able to come up and execute her as well.

Well.

The time is here.

Let's go ahead and look at the photos.

There are quite a few of them, so you're starting on page five.

This is Sammy, the woman who was dismembered, and feel free to give just enough information.

These are terrible and this did remind me of the black Dahlia photos from the scene there too.

So you know, the first page of the photos is showing three photos of Sammy, and I'm going to kind of go in a counterclockwise manner with the photos as they're displayed on the page.

So the upper right photo is Sammy's upper torso, which it looks like she is right maybe right at the belly button level.

That's where she has been bisecteds or lower body was removed from the belly button level downwards.

This photo is showing her upper body, including her head, laying somewhat on the left side but mostly on its back.

Both arms are present, She's nude.

Her face doesn't look very disturbed.

What's surprising to me is the lack of blood, so I don't know if this is after she's been cleaned up by the the corner's office or if this is how she's found.

She looks very fresh.

She does not look very decomposed at all.

I see the entry gunshot wound to her left chest, which is actually quite high up.

I would say it's maybe two inches below her left collarbone, and if that is actually found in her left arm, this is a shot that is going from her upper breast area and then is exiting probably around through her armpit area, maybe a little lower, and then is found embedded in her upper arm.

But really devoid of any other types of, you know, major injuries that I can see.

There's no stab wounds, There doesn't appear to be anything to indicate severe beating.

She has some discolorations in her face, but I can't tell what exactly those are.

And then the next photo is her lower body, which is an essence from her roughly her belly button level down to her knees, and this is showing the wound that was used to cut the lower body off.

As you had mentioned, the pathologist had noted or there's the lack of the intestines and bladder in this lower body as well as in the upper body, so the offender is purposely getting rid of those is not including those within the suitcase.

There is also a very large incision to her right hip that starts literally at the upper part of the hip and then goes down into her growin area.

I would say that that's the offender initially considering removing her right thigh and abandonons doing that and then ends up just you know, keeping this hole versus further dismembering it.

And it's possible maybe he decided that he was going to do the whole leg first and thought, no, this is going to be too hard going through the hip, and then he goes down to the knees and cuts through the knees, which would be a much easier process to do, but it looks like he, you know, at the knee level, he's going through the joint and he's not like trying to saw through the long bones of the legs.

And then the photo below that is also the lower body as I just described, sitting on its right side next to the smaller steamer trunk, and so I'm assuming they're just trying to show the origin of where this lower body was found.

And then below below that is the next page, and this is just showing Sammy's body parts being peace together, both you know, her laying on her back as well as her laying on her left side.

It appears that her entire body except for the intestines and bladder look like they're accounted for.

And the lower legs are in the photo in the upper left hand corner of this page, and it's just showing the wounds where the offender cut through the knees, you know, and it's pretty obvious looking at some of the fat layers, subcutaneous fat layers.

There's no hemorrhaging during this incision.

So she's dead at the point that her lower legs are and removed.

What does all of this say to you about the killer who were now going to try to figure out the identity of Is this somebody who's strong, physically strong to be able to do all this?

No?

You know, this in terms of the dismemberment process, again, is really for convenience of transport.

It's a lot easier to train support smaller body parts than a whole body.

And in this case, the offender chose to use steamer trunks and suitcases, you know, in order to fit the body parts in.

So he just had to get Sammy's body small enough to fit within the items that he had available for transport.

The first victim is not cut up because he had a larger steamer trunk.

He probably would not have dismembered Sammy if he had another large steamer trunk, but he didn't.

That's that's what that tells me.

Now, the offender, of course had to move these steamer trunks and Sammy.

You know, I'm guessing she's I mean, she is not overweight.

Of course we don't have photos, but she's in the large steamer trunks.

So you have a whole body in there.

So I'm going to say, let's say another one hundred and twenty pounds.

So now the offender has about two hundred and forty pounds worth of of body between the two bodies to move around.

He could do that singularly, or maybe he has some help moving these these steamer trunks in the suitcase.

I would say he doesn't need help.

He just has to, you know, travel with the suitcases to get it to the train and get them on the train.

The suitcases probably aren't anything unusual in terms of their their weight relative to other steamer trunks you know that are that are being put on there that may have other you know a lot of paper in them or something like that.

You know.

The dismemberment does not indicate anything about the offender, you know, his his physical characteristics.

You could have a very you could have a woman doing this.

This is you know, there's nothing that I can discern from that.

The way that these bodies are dismembered, as we have talked about on numerous occasions, you know, it doesn't necessarily indicate that the the offender had any medical training.

The only thing gives me pause is the fact that there is a surgeon's bag, if you will.

But anybody could potentially possess something like that, you know right now, you know, it's it's wide open.

It's it's just the offender.

You know that.

The puzzling aspect is why is the offender killing these two women and then transporting them on a train out to LA and they have a woman and a college age kid coming to claim the steamer trucks.

I mean, there's a clue somewhere in there.

Well, let's talk about Anne and Sammy and how they knew each other, and that'll probably be helpful.

They were good friends.

They met in Alaska and was a nurse and Sammy was a teacher.

In nineteen thirty one, they both moved to Phoenix and rented a cozy little duplex on North Second Street just on the outskirts of town.

Anne was divorced twice.

She was also not just a nurse, but an X ray technician at a local clinic.

Now we're going to talk about nineteen thirties.

Sammy was what is called a lunger.

And I've heard this phrase before.

This is someone who had tuberculosis who came to Phoenix in hopes that the Arizona heat, the dry heat, would help with the illness.

So she came there to get better.

She had tuberculosis.

Sometime in the evening of when these trunks were discovered.

While detectives in la are collecting evidence at the train and of course the autopsy has gone on, policemen in Phoenix investigate this duplex, which they would call, disgustingly in the press, the murder cottage.

In the bedroom, there are two rings of blood near the door, so there's one bedroom.

An's bed is on the north wall of the room.

Sammy's bed is on the south wall of the room.

Detectives fine blood splattered under Anne's bed, dotting the floor and splashed onto the baseboards, but the walls are clean.

There is no blood on or around Sammy's bed.

Both mattresses are missing, And the one photo I have that would be helpful is of the whole way with very deep scratch marks of where it sounds like the trunk were being dragged across.

So presumably somebody who has access to this apartment.

Let me just say one more thing about this area.

There was a corner of a bedroom rug that had been crudely hacked with a pair of surgical scissors, they say they.

You know, of course, compare this chunk of rug to the one in the trunk that they found, and it matches.

They find a bloody thumb print on the window shade.

Looks like someone left while pulling down the shade.

This fingerprint Phoenix Police fingerprint.

Three ginger Ale bottles which had been found next to a partially consumed bottle of whiskey in an ice box refrigerator.

It is unsecure this whole crime scene.

Reporters are milling around, I mean, not chalking for this time period.

The next day, the landlord begins selling tours of the apartment for ten cents ahead.

So what do you think the ginger ale I thought was interesting?

You know, well, the most interesting thing, of course is the bloody thumb print.

You know, if that if that actually is blood from one of the victims, then that's going to be, you know, very critical in terms of identifying who the offender is.

Now, the ginger Ale bottles, the bottle of whiskey that has found are Sammy and and entertaining somebody?

Did they have somebody over and then something goes sideways and now they're killed?

Do you have potentially offender prints on the ginger Ale bottles?

Uh?

Of course would today would be looking for DNA as well as the whiskey bottle.

Did either Sammy or a drink whisky?

You know?

I know you don't you know?

And yet you're still friends with me, thank.

You, even though you know.

The photos of Sammy at autopsy are showing her unclothed initially when her body was found, as well as Ann's bodies found.

It indicates at least they had pink pajamas on.

At least with Sammy, the lower part of her body had the pink pajamas on.

Is that indicative that there isn't a sexual aspect to the case.

Maybe, you know, I wouldn't necessarily draw a firm conclusion, but they had gotten ready for bed and the fact that two mattresses are gone out of this apartment.

Suggests to me that each victim was killed in their own bed, and the offender is seeing blood on each mattress and that's why those mattresses are gone, and that how does the offender get those mattresses out of this condo complex?

Are those just found in the dumpster to the complex or does the offender have a vehicle there?

And that's something that he takes to, you know, the landfill or whatever, you know, some restaurant dumpster.

But he's also cleaning up the crime scene and in essence, taking the victims' bodies and the smaller items from the crime scene, packaging them up and shipping them out to LA.

It's so bizarre, it is.

I'll tell you a little bit of evidence that Phoenix police, as they're searching for physical evidence, there is a vaked a lot miles from the North second Street to duplex.

They find one of the missing mattresses.

It's clean clean, Oh, nothing on that mattress.

At the duplex, they find blood stains in the bathroom.

So everything had been in the bedroom until now.

Blood stains in the bathroom and a mop handle in the garbage and they think that the mop had been burned after Sammy's body had been dismembered in the bathtub, So that's what they think happened, and I had wondered about that too.

Also, before you react to that, I want to ask you about the timeline.

The train that was going from Phoenix to LA was a eight o'clock train eight ten that night.

So it's October and it's probably it could be still light outside a little bit dusky.

I don't know how long it would take to do all of this.

You know, the mattresses being deposited.

Place is the dismemberment.

Does it make sense that this might have happened the night before the train happened.

I would say the homicides occurred the night before.

You know, who knows when the dismemberment happened.

You know, this is where now the offender has killed these two women.

And right now I'm just going to use the term offender very generically.

I can't say it's one offender or more than one offender.

But you have a single gun that's been used.

Right, they are killed sometime, you know, that night time before, whether it be the day before or it's after midnight, and it's the same day, but the offender is now he's calculating, how do I get away with this?

And does he leave and come back?

You know?

Are these steamer trunks something that belonged to these women?

You know?

And so he's utilizing what's present at the crime scene or does he bring something from his own residence in order to get get rid of the victim's body and the other items of evidence.

So that's a very significant aspect to this case.

Who do these steamer trunks, this tan suitcase, the hat case belonged to But the clean mattress is found in a vacant lot a distance away.

The offender has access to a vehicle.

Now, why is this mattress even being removed from the condo.

It's not to get rid of blood evidence.

That mattress is being used for another purpose.

That mattress may have been used to cover up things inside the offender's vehicle, could have been used to kind of stuff.

Let's say he's got the back of a pickup truck and now he's putting this, you know, the various objects on top of a mattress, you know, and creating a sandwich to hide things.

There's so many possibilities, but there's no reason for the offender to have removed a clean mattress from the condo.

And I always say, anytime the offender does something that is not necessary to commit the crime, why is the offender doing that?

So that's a pretty significant thing right there.

He's taking time to burn the mop that he's using to mop up evidence.

They must see some evidence that Sammy had been dismembered in the bathtub, and that's pretty typical, you know, that's where a lot of dismemberments occur.

So, yeah, he's spending some time after the fact in terms of packaging the victims' bodies, getting the you know, the steamer trunks, suitcase, the hat box, and then he gets them loaded into a vehicle.

He cleans up the crime scene, and he gets things transported out to the train.

And he's also now at least with the one mattress, he's taking the time to dispose of it.

And we can't say he disposed of that before after he gets the victims up into the train.

You know, don't know at this point what the sequence is, so but he's spending a fair amount of time trying to cover his tracks.

And again I'm using the term he just generically.

I'm not drawing a conclusion as to the gender of the killer just yet.

Well that was quite smart of you, Paul.

As Burton and his female friend are both persons of interest.

They identify the woman.

This is not his girlfriend or older friend.

This is his sister.

She's twenty six and her name is Winnie Ruth McKinnel Judd and anyone who's into historical true crime, like myself, knows this name.

She actually becomes known as the Trunk murderess.

She is their recent ex roommate.

She has a story to tell.

Now hold on, because this is said, We've got a part two to just simmer now, Pepper, We've got part two coming up here.

All right, I'll restrain myself.

She and Burton are in the wind.

The police are trying to find them.

They find out that she once lived with these two women.

She has a very complicated story.

She will be tracked down, and her explanation for all of this is something that I think you'll find very interesting.

All right, Well, I'm on pins and needles.

Kate, good, I'll let's see you next week.

All right, sounds good, Thank you.

This has been an exactly Right production for our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com slash Buried Bones sources.

Our senior producer is Alexis Emrosi.

Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer.

You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at buried Bones pod.

Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode the criminal mind, is available now.

And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold Cases is also available now.

Listen to Baried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast