[SPEAKER_00]: M.S.W.

[SPEAKER_00]: Media.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hi, I'm Francis Calier.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm Angela V.

Shelton.

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[SPEAKER_01]: All right, with this.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can't with this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Our first summer right.

[SPEAKER_01]: What's got Peterson in the news, Francis?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, what is he in the news?

[SPEAKER_00]: You know why?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because somebody, somebody decided that he, I can't even say a straight with a straight phase, Angela.

[SPEAKER_00]: An innocent project.

[SPEAKER_00]: decided that he needed representation.

[SPEAKER_00]: The innocence project.

[SPEAKER_01]: I must say it will most have the innocence project.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, Los Angeles, innocence project.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're saying they have taken Scott Peterson's case.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, they have.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they're trying to set him free.

[SPEAKER_00]: What?

[SPEAKER_00]: Why?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because, okay, the project, just so you, of course, you don't know, helps free the wrongly convicted.

[SPEAKER_00]: While Peterson was, this is what they were saying, up a landering, Modesto fertilizers salesmen.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, can you make them sound fatter and worse?

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think so.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that that, that that is about as sad as you can get.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was convicted.

[SPEAKER_01]: Literally over two decades ago, um, of murdering his pregnant wife and their child that she carried at Christmas time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Girl at Christmas.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you don't remember this, I don't know how you don't because it's for years dominated.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it was everything.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think I think.

[SPEAKER_00]: She, her case, took Lacey Peterson's murder, took place at a time when, like, this was after Shival, but we hadn't had a case like that, like a baby Jessica fell down the well, kind of the case the long time.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know, and I think I do know what it was.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was the fact that she was pregnant and at Christmas time.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he was attractive.

[SPEAKER_01]: They were both attractive.

[SPEAKER_01]: They were both attractive.

[SPEAKER_01]: Which, you know, attractive white folk who he went on the news and was begging for, you know, helped find his wife and this whole, you know, the loving husband, it about me, dad.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then the story got like convoluted.

[SPEAKER_01]: and problematic.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so apparently, the organization Innocence Project, LA Innocence Project, has asserted in court filings that they recently filed that it had turned up proof of Peterson's innocence, including a bombshell analysis by Harvard Medical School Professor.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you know what?

[SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm going to be not a bombshell.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to need a nuclear level analysis.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, so what they've said, I guess in their filings, is that this is a quote.

[SPEAKER_01]: This new evidence undermines the prosecution's entire circumstantial case against Peterson and shows that the jury relied on false evidence, including false scientific evidence to convict him.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: The efforts by the small nonprofit founded three years ago and currently employing a single, a single full-time attorney have cracked open a story that seems and, you know, [SPEAKER_00]: It was before the like real smartphone era when societies attention was like I said was not yet fractured and that is why I think we are so still twenty two decades later obsessed with this story.

[SPEAKER_00]: From two thousand two when Lacey Peterson vanished from her home to two thousand four when a jury sentenced her husband to death.

[SPEAKER_00]: News outlets from the national inquire to Good Morning America cover Abby every twist and turn that will part outside of their home.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So if you remember part of the appeal was that it just seemed so something right from Johnny.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is the original Sunday right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the bodies of the mother and the child, a boy that they were going to name Connor, had washed up separately about four months after her disappearance on the shores of the San Francisco Bay, about ninety miles from the couple's home.

[SPEAKER_01]: But within I shot [SPEAKER_01]: of the waters where Scott Peterson had made it in prompt to Christmas Eve fishing trip.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, as one does, as one does.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then there also was before we say to get to the affair.

[SPEAKER_00]: So this name, I was on Google a lot today.

[SPEAKER_00]: This made me Google.

[SPEAKER_00]: how long can a fetus, you know, that's nearly to time.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's eight months.

[SPEAKER_00]: She was eight months.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was survive within a mother's uterus because note that they say they washed up separately.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: So this is what they say.

[SPEAKER_00]: They say that a pregnant woman who dies cannot vaginally.

[SPEAKER_00]: The her she will not dilate.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, because the body's functioning stops.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: That I assume.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: How the baby get out.

[SPEAKER_00]: Look.

[SPEAKER_01]: Innocence project.

[SPEAKER_01]: They were saying that revered.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, God.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so basically, so when we found out that she was missing, he'd also coincidentally gone on on a fishing trip on Christmas Eve, just in prom too.

[SPEAKER_01]: He just bought the boat and he had just he had just bought.

[SPEAKER_01]: They also they found out he was having an affair with a Fresno massage therapist named Amber Fry.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he told her two weeks before.

[SPEAKER_01]: Lacy went missing that he had lost his wife.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was preparing for his first holiday alone.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you know what happened, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: It happened.

[SPEAKER_00]: So what happened was she found out he was married.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he started, I mean, when I tell you the hill of lies, this man made, and then he was like, well, actually, I just lost her and, you know, and my son.

[SPEAKER_00]: And this was before Lacy disappeared.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: So before he said she's missing, before any of that has happened, he's telling this woman he's having affair with that she's gone, that she's gone.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[UNKNOWN]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that, that I'm gonna tell you, does not, it does not look good.

[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't look good.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna tell you, you know what, it's called, make me raise a eye.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then it's police, but we're still searching for, for Lacey Peterson.

[SPEAKER_01]: Scott took steps suggesting he knew she was not coming back, like trading in her land Rover for a pickup truck, planning the sale of their home and all of its furnishings.

[SPEAKER_01]: Remaking the nursery as a storage area and adding sexually explicit channels to their cable line up.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, okay, and if you don't care, blonde, remember that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, yes, he did.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, he did.

[SPEAKER_00]: Do you remember, I don't know if you've seen any of this footage, but the nursery now, it hasn't been too much.

[SPEAKER_00]: Your wife hasn't been going a month.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's missing out on the body.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: We don't know what's happened to her.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I tell you that role that nursery became the joke wrong so fast.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was in your head.

[SPEAKER_00]: Spend.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because let me tell you this was not a man in my opinion.

[SPEAKER_00]: who was languishing and crying and worried about his family.

[SPEAKER_00]: There are people whose family members pass away legitimately.

[SPEAKER_00]: They don't go in their room for two years.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, here's the thing I will say.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not in his defense at all, but what I will say is that everybody deals with shock and I try and and grief differently.

[SPEAKER_01]: I have no idea thankfully.

[SPEAKER_01]: What do we feel like to have somebody I cared about be missing?

[SPEAKER_01]: And not have any idea, if legit, what happened to them?

[SPEAKER_01]: It is hard to believe that I would get rid of my baby's room.

[SPEAKER_01]: Some, some, my wife's car, son of house and get, and get whatever except explicit channels, you can get on your cable line up these days.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know or back then.

[SPEAKER_00]: Which back then, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: What the playboy channel or songs show time spectrum of some.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But like he did all of, he did a bunch of stuff that really, if you were his lawyer, [SPEAKER_01]: Or if you were a friend of the family, because he probably, I mean, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure he got, I remember he did get a lawyer.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know when he lawyer it up.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: Mark Gregg, Gregg, I guess.

[SPEAKER_00]: Gary goes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Gary goes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Gary goes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: But he, in any case, he, um, so.

[SPEAKER_01]: Apparently that, you know, it was so it just felt overwhelming this evidence at the time, even though they didn't have a lot of information.

[SPEAKER_01]: They didn't have obviously any witnesses.

[SPEAKER_01]: They didn't have a murder weapon.

[SPEAKER_00]: They didn't have any blood in his car or or fishing boat or the home, okay?

[SPEAKER_00]: And so the high court found considerable circumstantial evidence to support his conviction, all right?

[SPEAKER_00]: So apparently the death sentence, right, right because of the manner in which the trial judge dismissed potential jurors who said on a questionnaire, they opposed capital punishment.

[SPEAKER_01]: Apparently you judge is supposed to press you and say, could you set aside your views rather than just removing those jurors automatically?

[SPEAKER_01]: Prosecutors opted not to retry the penalty phase of the case.

[SPEAKER_01]: They said to not put the victims family through, you know, more more court proceedings.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because this was, I mean, a media circus.

[SPEAKER_01]: So he was sentenced to scapears him a sentence to life without the possibility of parole in twenty twenty one.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's literally, I mean, this, this, he was convicted in twenty-two thousand four.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, so here's the thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: When I tell you, just this is slow.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, I get that, you know, he and thank goodness he's not on death row, you know, and what have you at this moment.

[SPEAKER_00]: But come on.

[SPEAKER_01]: So apparently a lawyer who worked on his appeal, what approached the L.A.

[SPEAKER_01]: in a sense project for help in twenty twenty three, the year after it opened its doors, the founding director, Paula Mitchell.

[SPEAKER_01]: A veteran of Loyola school law school's well-respected innocence program had access to federal grant money for DNA testing in potential wrongful conviction cases.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the appellate lawyer was looking for a way to cover the analysis of a potential piece of evidence, a mattress that had been pulled from a van torch and Modesto in a Modesto alley.

[SPEAKER_01]: The day after Lacy was reported missing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Prosecutors have long maintained that the vehicle was unrelated [SPEAKER_01]: to the murders and previous testing of the mattress fabric detected only male DNA, but Mitchell agreed to look into the case before long she'd thrown her young organization into a wholesale reexamination of the Peterson saga with assistance from several lawyers then working for the project.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, um, okay, I'll just let's stop right there and say how I feel.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, you go and then I'll go.

[SPEAKER_01]: I need to know some more about this lady.

[SPEAKER_01]: This lawyer.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm concerned.

[SPEAKER_01]: Be that your first move for the LA based emissants project.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_00]: is the is to reexamine Scott Pearson's case.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's the but the man who had Mark.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, how do you say it's last year?

[SPEAKER_00]: Gary goes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Gary goes.

[SPEAKER_00]: The man who had him could you their family privileged.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm telling you access to the best possible defense.

[SPEAKER_01]: I could not agree with you more.

[SPEAKER_01]: Anne.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not even dealing with is this evidence compelling.

[SPEAKER_01]: We haven't gotten to it yet.

[SPEAKER_01]: But like, I'm suspect.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm suspect.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm suspect some may write is what I'm saying.

[SPEAKER_01]: I am suspect of miscellaneous intentions or what's happening here.

[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely because who looks at all of these cases of help and need and picks the most.

[SPEAKER_00]: Polarizing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Famous, least, least, um, not just likable, because I don't, but sort of least, like, this is not a case that I ever felt conflicted about, like, and I wasn't on the jury, obviously.

[SPEAKER_01]: I now hear all the evidence, but I hear not as, not a dollop of evidence and suggested any kind of innocence.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: God beater slip.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is a, [SPEAKER_00]: This is his little letter, part of his little letter he wrote.

[SPEAKER_00]: He said, I do not have an acceptable explanation for my infidelity or the lies I told to amper-frame.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know what, but that's a lot of lies, okay?

[SPEAKER_00]: He wrote adding that he would live with the shame.

[SPEAKER_00]: for the rest of his life.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: You get to do that.

[SPEAKER_00]: All of it goes on to say he goes on to say all of that being said.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was in no way responsible for Lisa's disappearance or her death or that of our son Connor.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this is a letter that he wrote that that gets the included in his filing declaration that was filed by the L.A.

[SPEAKER_01]: in a sense project.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and he, he's basically said the Modesto police were railroading him or railroad him.

[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, so I, I just, it's interesting because this article goes on to say that, you know, typically the net, the innocence project, the national innocence project doesn't take, this isn't the kind of case you see them taking on one that was so tabloid, um, exploited.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, um, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: polarizing and also again, we said somebody who has had access to an outstanding defense.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: But the idea here is that most people trying to establish their innocence are for them, black or brown gang members from Los Angeles or some other city said Ellen Eggers, a retired state public defender who has helped free eight men from prison since [SPEAKER_01]: But for some reason, this one person office said, you know what, this is the case.

[SPEAKER_01]: So like that woman, the Ellen Eggers went on to say, you come from a poor neighborhood, you have no resources, you had a public defender or a court appointed attorney.

[SPEAKER_01]: Mark Garagos was one of the country's most prominent criminal lawyers.

[SPEAKER_01]: His defense cost, it was something, they call it a seven, at least a seven figure sum for his Scott Peterson.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that's in the millions.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, Eggers, she went on the woman you're just quoting Ellen Eggers to say, it's not, this is a quote, it's not anything that I would ever do in terms of representing Scott Peterson.

[SPEAKER_01]: She said she didn't know the facts of the case, but was reluctant to quote, prioritize the people that are white and wealthy and have had lots and lots of fights to the app with the most expensive attorneys that money can buy.

[SPEAKER_00]: If this was by organization, I'd have to call her up and say, you're giving us a bad look.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this was, this Jasmine Harris, who's that she's the Director of Development Policy at the Innocence Center in San Diego.

[SPEAKER_01]: She said, she understood the worry, you know, she said she had a donor call and she said, who's she trusted, who said they were very concerned about this being a problematic case for the Innocence Project, to be taking on.

[SPEAKER_01]: But she understood the worry, but says the quote, if an Innocence organization believes in someone's innocent enough to agree to take the case, that is all that should matter.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think so.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just don't, I, that's not your mandate.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Your manner of people who were failed, I thought, by this system in some way, or did not receive an adequate defense.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think there's an argument that he didn't receive an adequate defense.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, and they're not saying he didn't.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're saying he's proof of innocence.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, [SPEAKER_01]: Apparently his lawyers, is it lawyers though, really, isn't it my color?

[SPEAKER_01]: They argue that the district attorney's office, excuse me.

[SPEAKER_01]: in Medesto in the local police rush to judgment and disregarded a destroyed evidence that would implicate other suspects.

[SPEAKER_01]: They've pointed to another case in which two Peter's and prosecutors were accused of framing a local lawyer and others for murder, which is messed up.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's really messed up.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's another story.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: But that's not this.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's not this.

[SPEAKER_00]: for me and when you look at all that the whole moment and I go again and again, I can't help but think this is somebody who is doing this for an exploiting this situation for thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: and recognition.

[SPEAKER_00]: I wonder, it's something right as well as I am.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what it is, but, but basically, I, I just feel like, this is not seem like a good use of, of their time.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, um, apparently, they, you know, so the L.A.

[SPEAKER_01]: in a sense project, why do they keep saying lawyers when they've already said it's one lawyer?

[SPEAKER_01]: who are collected, poured over the evidence, got some help.

[SPEAKER_01]: I guess that's what they mean.

[SPEAKER_01]: From other people, rented an Airbnb, which I thought was a very weird piece of information to go around the core documents.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so they, I guess they found some notes about anchors, possible anchors.

[SPEAKER_01]: So part of the deal here is that Scott had bought this boat, and there was no evidence that his wife knew he had it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: There was a boat.

[SPEAKER_01]: But apparently they're saying now that they found these notes.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're saying that they were written by Lacey Peterson and the new evidence shows at Lacey knew about the boat.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, which that's not enough for me yet.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, just because she said you know why just because she knew about the boat doesn't mean that she knew she was going to be murdered and thrown all of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And also, we don't know, you don't know, because we will never have the opportunity to ask that woman, okay?

[SPEAKER_00]: And also, this was the other thing too.

[SPEAKER_00]: He was like researching anchors, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: But he got an anchor, but the anchor's missing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, see, that's something right.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, but, but, so the innocence per aliens since project, they're saying what the thing is they had, they were trying to look at the data on measurements on when Lacey Petersen died and when the fetus, right died, right.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, there's no way to exactly, you know, no, but [SPEAKER_01]: His remade that Connors, the fetuses remains were found on the base shore a day before Lacy's.

[SPEAKER_01]: They did odd topCs on their badly decomposed bodies indicating, and that those indicated that she had died while still pregnant, and that Connors' body had remained in her room for some time.

[SPEAKER_01]: A prosecution expert had testified at trial that based on the length of his femur, he likely died inside her on December, twenty-third, which was the last day Lacy was seen alive.

[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, like I said before, this made me go to the internet.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: And ask this question.

[SPEAKER_00]: And what I found, if somebody write me because I don't know if this is true.

[SPEAKER_00]: the Google say, you can, if you have, if you die, this is what Google say.

[SPEAKER_00]: Google say, if you've died, you cannot vaginally deliver a baby.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: That was, so here's the deal.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this, this, they had a new person.

[SPEAKER_01]: look at data, you know, there's new, there are new calculations, new standards, whatever, since then.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he, this new, do, do, do ballet, do ballet.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure to say his name.

[SPEAKER_01]: Do the calculations using data sets that had been compiled in the intervening years and concluded that Connor had died five to thirteen days later than they originally said.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I'm saying.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is, this doesn't say that she was dead.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't understand, I don't understand this so-called new evidence, but that would, in this finally, the L.A.

[SPEAKER_01]: in a sense project made, that might exonerate.

[SPEAKER_01]: this and that guy do bla as a I guess a radiologist.

[SPEAKER_01]: That might exonerate him because.

[SPEAKER_01]: Scott Peterson was under law enforcement surveillance in that period and not in the position to a murderous pregnant wife.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know why in this they're talking about their re examining his day of death.

[SPEAKER_01]: Conners, but not Lacy.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't see anything suggesting in this now.

[SPEAKER_01]: that hurt, that went hurt.

[SPEAKER_01]: So basically what they're saying is that somebody, their argument is that somebody kept her alive.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Two, three weeks.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then they got to a pregnant woman held her captive for between five days and almost two weeks.

[SPEAKER_01]: In a period of time when people all over the country were looking for her, then killed her and disposed of her body in a place that rescue crews were already searching.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's the argument that they're making.

[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then there was also somebody else.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's always a jailbird, jailhouse, snitch, who's got some information.

[SPEAKER_00]: But there was some guy in jail sitting there going, what am I?

[SPEAKER_00]: This guy was bailed and I often he said one of his homies, you know, killed Lacey Peterson and that he's innocent.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's no.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then also the concept here that numerous people were aware of a headline making crime in state silent.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: because like that person, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: There, nobody else came forward, except that when, at this period of time, when they're saying that unidentified is sounds where allegedly holding Lacey Peterson imprisoning her, they had a five hundred thousand dollar reward for her safe return that went unclamed.

[SPEAKER_01]: In comparison, the prosecutors wrote in a filing last year that a reward of just a thousand dollars for information about the burglary was enough to entice a tip to return in the perpetrators.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's like, look, we had all this money.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, I will say that if you're guilty of kidnapping and possibly murdering a person, five hundred thousand dollars, you don't think, like, I don't know, you know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't know the deaths.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not that stupid.

[SPEAKER_00]: I hope you're not that stupid.

[SPEAKER_00]: But, okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, basically, I, the real issue for me here, as we said, [SPEAKER_01]: Is the Y is the LA Innocence Project?

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we're talking about a place where, you know, in the Los Angeles area, right at this very moment.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll hear violating people's rights.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I just, you know, like, this is the case.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would be ashamed of my organization.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we would have to talk about this in the next meeting.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so that's what you think.

[SPEAKER_01]: Redis at frangelozeratedgmail.com because so far apparently superior court judge Elizabeth Hill has denied thirteen of the L.A.

[SPEAKER_01]: innocent projects, innocent projects, fourteen requests.

[SPEAKER_01]: She allowed them to test a piece of duct tape that had adhered to the maternity pants late maternity pants that Lacey was wearing when her body was to shore.

[SPEAKER_01]: The results were under seal.

[SPEAKER_01]: But apparently they do not appear to be earth shattering as the L.A.

[SPEAKER_01]: Innocence Project didn't mention DNA on the duct tape in their petition.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I just think that this is about, this is an attention graph and getting everybody to, you know, try to have some type of, well, it could have been, you know, we're gonna cast some doubt in people's minds.

[SPEAKER_01]: They have my cast.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to tell you this.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to say this and I'm going to say try to say it in a quaint way.

[SPEAKER_00]: I have never seen somebody's penis.

[SPEAKER_00]: Get them in so much trouble.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you have.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of trouble.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Epstein's dead.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I mean.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm just saying that this is I'm going to tell you something.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is that is primarily what gets them in trouble.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's what I'm saying.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's ridiculous.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is all about for me.

[SPEAKER_00]: Why couldn't he have?

[SPEAKER_00]: Just turn to her.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, pregnant eight month old, you know, but and turn to her and say, I want a divorce.

[SPEAKER_00]: I need to lead.

[SPEAKER_00]: And this is my issue are people living lives where they're forced.

[SPEAKER_00]: They feel like they need to have such perfection that you can't even have that on your record.

[SPEAKER_00]: of your life.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not you wish it was that it's the money.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's that if you get divorced, you he's responsible for those people financially.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the he wants to have this that he, you know, and I don't know what's wrong with him.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's something many things are in my view.

[SPEAKER_01]: Scott, some wrong Scott fearsome.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Many, many something is probably right.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not even know that it's right to, but the reality to me is that the reason people do this is because they don't want to deal with the ramifications.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's always worth it because women are expendable and women are pregnant.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's the most dangerous time in their life.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_00]: Every time.

[SPEAKER_00]: That will be right back.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know what?

[SPEAKER_01]: Something right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Something right.

[SPEAKER_01]: This next one's good too.

[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back.

[SPEAKER_00]: What to know about the new travel fee to enter the United States?

[SPEAKER_01]: This is Gordon.

[SPEAKER_01]: Gordon, we want to say thank you, Gordon.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Gordon.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: So here's the key points.

[SPEAKER_00]: Visitors to the United States will need to pay a visa integrity fee according to the new law.

[SPEAKER_00]: The fee will be at least, at least.

[SPEAKER_00]: two hundred and fifty dollars that is on top of other visa fees and maybe reimbursable.

[SPEAKER_00]: However, when the fee starts, how to get a refund remains unclear.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is what I, you know what, we humans are not, we are not cash machines.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, this is another, another just delightful part of the one big beautiful bill act.

[SPEAKER_01]: This fee would apply to all visitors who need non-immigrant visas to enter and cannot be waived.

[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, however, it's they're saying this without providing any information about the mechanisms for collecting the fee or for having it reimbursed, but they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, you can you can get it reimbursed.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, but you know, like what is after later later later later.

[SPEAKER_01]: So and also what I I found this fascinating so it would start for this year right run and then then the secretary of Homeland Security is free to set the fee higher.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they can just raise it.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this, these vices, not immigrant visas would include tourists, business travelers and international students.

[SPEAKER_00]: See, see, there it is.

[SPEAKER_00]: There it is.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's just, it's really, really awful.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is, this administration is disgusting.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're [SPEAKER_01]: And this is on top of all the other fees.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So for example, if you are an H one B worker, you're already paying a two hundred and five dollar application fee.

[SPEAKER_01]: But now you'd expect to pay a total of four hundred and fifty five dollars once this fee is in place.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So then additionally, the fee must be paid on top of a form I ninety four feet.

[SPEAKER_01]: which the one beautiful bill act increased from six dollars to twenty four.

[SPEAKER_01]: That fee must be paid by anyone who's required to submit a four mile ninety four arrival in departure record which applies to most travelers.

[SPEAKER_01]: So here's the thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: I am all I are doing.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is all to pay for rich people.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_00]: to have.

[SPEAKER_00]: They have a tax break all of this and we are going to let me tell you I just side quest real quick.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just watched a vlog on this this guy has in Las Vegas and he's talking about.

[SPEAKER_00]: like there's nobody there, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: These rooms are empty.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's, you know, this should, it should be pumping right now, this and the other.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, you know why?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because we keep reaching into the pockets of Americans and charging them, hundred dollars for a buffet that is subpar, charging them, you know, like a fee after fee after fee.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're playing tickets.

[SPEAKER_00]: All those fees at the end of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_00]: And things like if you want to check in your hotel early, you have to pay sixty dollars a sixty dollar fee so that you can go into a room that is currently empty two hours earlier because your feet are tired and you're exhausted from flying.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you know how many people are going to do that.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's it's just [SPEAKER_01]: You think about, you know, so the homeland security, I get, this is, this goes through the Department of Homeland, but they don't have, they don't own visas, they don't own the visa program.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they have no way, it's really unclear how they're collecting this fee.

[SPEAKER_01]: Who's collecting it?

[SPEAKER_01]: Then, how, how do you get, do you know how hard it's getting money out the government?

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm telling you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, so, I don't understand that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, what I, what I understand is how me giving you two hundred and fifty dollars, [SPEAKER_01]: It guarantees the integrity of my visa more than pre- two hundred fifty dollars.

[SPEAKER_01]: Can you tell me how to do it?

[SPEAKER_00]: You could get me.

[SPEAKER_00]: You could get me with.

[SPEAKER_00]: International travel to the United States has picked up.

[SPEAKER_00]: We are processing wonderfully processing, more and more tourists and travelers every year.

[SPEAKER_00]: So to accommodate that demand, we need to address that had this fee.

[SPEAKER_00]: But that's not what they say here.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would I believe is that they just want to tax [SPEAKER_01]: Anybody, let me, let me be clear to first if you give me two hundred and fifty dollars right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: I will guarantee the integrity of this conversation.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: You don't overstay it.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just, you know, apparently data shows that the visa holders comply with their visa terms, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: For the fiscal years between twenty sixteen and twenty twenty two between one and two percent of non-immigrant visitors overstayed their visas to the United States.

[SPEAKER_01]: So part of the thing to have in this bill is that if you, you can get your money back if you don't overstay or don't take any outside employment, don't break the [SPEAKER_01]: of the visa, but nobody does.

[SPEAKER_01]: The thing is, pursuing this money, what I can tell you is if you're seeing there, you've got a family and you're planning a vacation, a trip to United States.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is enough to make you not do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Looking at each member of your family, having to come up with an extra thousand dollars for your trip.

[SPEAKER_01]: that is right, that is not applicable to food or any, it's just some fee you're already paying fee.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the president of that, you know, of the United States is not welcoming.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, what should I cover and spend my dollars here?

[SPEAKER_00]: Why should I go to Vegas?

[SPEAKER_00]: Why, you know, we're, we're about to have the Olympics here.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I'm saying.

[SPEAKER_01]: You think about punishing, I believe, China, America.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because people and fight fought, they're all these upcoming huge events that will bring people from all over the world to California.

[SPEAKER_01]: and they want to throw on this fee all of a sudden.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that this is what's really interesting about this motley crew.

[SPEAKER_00]: They, for people who don't want taxes on them, they sure are good about tax and other people.

[SPEAKER_01]: They love to throw a tax around, don't they?

[SPEAKER_01]: They just love to throw a tax around like they're fishing.

[SPEAKER_00]: We'll be right back after these messages.

[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, this is upsetting.

[SPEAKER_01]: Turn your warm.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is a big fear of mine.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is a big fear of yours.

[SPEAKER_01]: A very big fear of mine is an investigation by the New York Times.

[SPEAKER_01]: A push for more organ transplants is putting donors at risk.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, can I just stop real quick?

[SPEAKER_00]: Can we stop?

[SPEAKER_00]: Can we stop?

[SPEAKER_00]: Can we stop?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because when?

[SPEAKER_00]: How can you be at risk when you're dead?

[SPEAKER_00]: When you're dead?

[SPEAKER_00]: Can't alone.

[SPEAKER_01]: You have to be like you.

[SPEAKER_01]: You have to work really hard to put somebody dead at risk.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I'm saying.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is my point.

[SPEAKER_01]: So make right.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a problem with the headlight.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, oh, this is the subheadline.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, this makes me, it makes my bones itch.

[SPEAKER_01]: People across the United States have endured rushed or premature attempts to remove their organs.

[SPEAKER_01]: Some were gasping, crying, or showing other signs of life.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, [SPEAKER_01]: But this is the thing, these are not necessarily people who even said they wanted to be organ donors.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so there's all sorts of stories, but let's just start.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let this one last spring at a small alibi, Bama Hospital sounded very horror filming already.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it does.

[SPEAKER_01]: But they got one light bulb, you know, a team of transplant surgeons prepared to cut into Misty Hawkins.

[SPEAKER_01]: The clock was ticking.

[SPEAKER_01]: Her organs wouldn't be useful for much longer.

[SPEAKER_01]: Days earlier, she had been a vibrant, forty-two-year-old with a playful sense of humor and a love for the Fender Beach, more like really.

[SPEAKER_01]: But she choked while she was eating and she fell into a coma.

[SPEAKER_01]: Her mother decided to take her off life support and donate her organs.

[SPEAKER_01]: She was removed from a ventilator and after a hundred and three minutes declared dead.

[SPEAKER_01]: A surgeon, oh hey, who?

[SPEAKER_01]: A surgeon made an incision in her chest and saw through her breast bone.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's when the doctors discovered that her heart was beating.

[SPEAKER_00]: Holy moly.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's whey.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's whey.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's whey.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's whey.

[SPEAKER_00]: And, and she appeared to be breezing.

[SPEAKER_00]: That was fall second this before this point.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Angela, they were slicing into Ms.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hawkins while she was alive, y'all.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, um, okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, in Florida, these are, they have a bunch of stories.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's like, fifty five, they found in this investigation like, fifty five questionable or problematic, if you will, story incidents of possible.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I don't know, just wrongness.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So for example, there's this a case where in Florida, man cried and bit on his breathing tube, but was still with, withdrawn from light support.

[SPEAKER_01]: And what's the doctor's were appalled when coordinators asked a paralyzed man coming off of sedatives in an operating room for consent to remove his organs.

[SPEAKER_00]: While he's just coming to y'all in New Mexico, a woman was subjected to days of preparation for donation.

[SPEAKER_00]: Even after her family said that she seemed to be regaining consciousness, which she eventually did.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just want I'm going to slow this down one more time.

[SPEAKER_00]: They were preparing her.

[SPEAKER_00]: to take her organs out of her body.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna tell you there's something called putting the cart before the horse.

[SPEAKER_01]: I guess such a kind, kind way to talk about murdering people for their organs.

[SPEAKER_01]: They got to be done with them organs first.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So apparently most donated organs in the United States come from people who are brain dead, which is what we've all believe.

[SPEAKER_01]: I believe what I believed, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Apparently, apparently in the nineties there was this case, I will get to that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But apparently, [SPEAKER_01]: When you're brain dead, it's an irreversible state.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they're kept on machines only to maintain the organs, right before they can so they can be donated.

[SPEAKER_01]: However, they've been using circulatory death donation.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, which is different.

[SPEAKER_01]: These patients are on life support, often in a coma, and their prognosis is more of like a judgment call, which I call very close to a guess.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: What do I call murder?

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: So apparently stories like this are a type of work in a river called Donation after Circulatory Death, accounted for a third of all donations last year.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's about twenty thousand organs.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's triple the number that they did of the circulatory death donations.

[SPEAKER_01]: Triple the number from five years ago.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's a huge increase.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: In five years.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: So what I did, Angela, you know what I did.

[SPEAKER_00]: I had to go to the Google.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: to go to the Google's and I asked Google what is the average number of organ surgeries performed at hospitals in Los Angeles or Indonesian surgeries or just yeah organ donation surgeries yes so Cedar Sinai [SPEAKER_00]: It's set an international record in twenty twenty four by completing six hundred and eighty two solid organ transplants okay in two thousand twenty twenty eighty two yes Wow, okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's that's to a day like what are almost not really quite but [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's close.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let me give you this one.

[SPEAKER_00]: The Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center has performed a cumulative total of twenty two thousand solid organ transplants placing it among the highest volume centers in the United States.

[SPEAKER_00]: So then we have to ask how much does this cost?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because for me, this is a question about money.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so if you figure, see, and this is the thing that what they won't say that's weird about this, this, this, this article, this situation, you, they don't get paid.

[SPEAKER_00]: The hospital does not get paid for the organs.

[SPEAKER_00]: But they do get paid for the surgery to take the organs.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that is added into the receiver's ultimate bill.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, this is a thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Apparently, the New York Times in this investigation found fifty-five medical workers in nineteen states that said that they had witnessed at least one disturbing case of donation after circulatory death.

[SPEAKER_01]: That is enough from one disturbing case.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, the, you know, the article is on to be very careful to say that this is a fraction if you will of donations and what I don't need at no.

[SPEAKER_01]: I have a very, very deep fear of being operated on while I'm awake.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because it is very hard to put me to sleep like very hard.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you find it called experts.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've been trying for years.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the times and I've been only been on put on her once and they had to do it three times.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because she said, you kept waking up, and I woke up at the very end, you know, it was the thing that we don't this in polite to talk about.

[SPEAKER_00]: But the Times found some organ procurement organizations, the nonprofits in each state that have federal contracts to coordinate transplants are, this is their words, are aggressively pursuing circulatory deaf donors and pushing families and doctors.

[SPEAKER_00]: surgery.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hospitals are responsible for patients up to the moment of death, but some are allowing procurement organizations to influence treatment decisions, money, money, money, money.

[SPEAKER_01]: Really wrong.

[SPEAKER_01]: Really wrong because this is the procurement has a vested interest in the procurement.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they can't do that if you're alive.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what we don't want to treat.

[SPEAKER_01]: people to keep them alive, if we're procuring.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there was a recent federal investigation.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was prompted by the case of a Kentucky man whose organs were pursued even as he shook his head and drew his knees to his chest.

[SPEAKER_01]: The investigation found that the state's procurement organization, that's such a weird word to say, procurement organization had ignored signs of increasing consciousness in seventy three potential donors.

[SPEAKER_00]: Those are the seventy three we know about, but also again, I have to say, when it is somebody else's job, [SPEAKER_00]: to count the widgets and to make sure that this hospital is running and we have all the things.

[SPEAKER_00]: When you put that kind of pressure on a single individual and they're afraid of losing their job, [SPEAKER_00]: You got to expect this.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we talked about Misty Hawkins at the beginning of the article.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, Misty Hawkins, she'd had a light-flung cognitive disability.

[SPEAKER_01]: She looked with her mother and her stepfather in Alabama.

[SPEAKER_01]: She, like I said, she'd been a vibrant young her in her forties.

[SPEAKER_01]: She was eating lunch when she choked on a sandwich.

[SPEAKER_01]: Her stepfather called by one.

[SPEAKER_01]: They got into the hospital.

[SPEAKER_01]: but her brain suffered oxygen deprivation that left her comatose and on a ventilator.

[SPEAKER_01]: Her mother raced to the hospital from her job.

[SPEAKER_01]: And doctors told her that her daughter would never breathe on her own again and gave her mother's seventy two hours to decide whether to move her to a nursing home or withdraw life support.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you [SPEAKER_01]: You've raised there, all this is being thrown at you.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, you got seventy two hours.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: She didn't want her daughter to suffer, obviously.

[SPEAKER_01]: So she asked about organ donation.

[SPEAKER_01]: So Alabama's procurement organization, like a Sea of Hope coordinated the donation.

[SPEAKER_01]: It ran test shows recipients and arranged for an outside company, transmedics, see where to come where two people organizations in deep now, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I'm saying.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just some surgeons to remove the organs.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_01]: Miss Hawkins was wheeled into an operating room.

[SPEAKER_01]: Her family set a final goodbye.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: In the operating room, a hospital doctor took Miss Hawkins off the ventilator and gave her drugs for comfort.

[SPEAKER_01]: Dr.

Clared her dead a hundred and three minutes later near the outer limit of organ viability.

[SPEAKER_01]: The surgeons entered the room.

[SPEAKER_01]: They began operating.

[SPEAKER_01]: after a five minute waiting period.

[SPEAKER_01]: So all circulatory death donations require a waiting period to ensure the heart does not restart.

[SPEAKER_01]: Almost immediately they saw Ms.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hawkins heart moving.

[SPEAKER_01]: Does remember they cut through her breast point and that's when they saw that legacy of hope called it reanimation.

[SPEAKER_01]: That and they also said the heart fluttered.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: So what would I wait I just have to ask the question.

[SPEAKER_00]: Who's in there doing this surgery?

[SPEAKER_00]: Are these doctors?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, they're surgeons.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I'm saying.

[SPEAKER_00]: Shouldn't a surgeon be able to know if somebody's dead or if I deal with hearts?

[SPEAKER_01]: Should not be able to tell what the heck's going on without looking at it without a visual confirmation that the heart is beating?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's the theory because it's very, if that's the way we decide if somebody's heart is beating, then that's messed up.

[SPEAKER_01]: That we have to open your chest.

[SPEAKER_01]: So when they, they saw that and the heart was being strongly enough to pump blood through the body.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the records from the pure procurement organization also noted subsequent gasping respirations, which is a type of breathing.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the surgeon stopped and left the room and other doctors sewed her up.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's unclear if she was given any anesthetic.

[SPEAKER_01]: Twelve minutes later, she was again declared dead.

[SPEAKER_01]: So on her way her mother was on her way home, when she received a call saying her daughter's organs had not been used, but they didn't tell her what had happened or why they hadn't been used.

[SPEAKER_01]: She only learned about this until the time from the New York Times when they did this five years or I'm sorry, a year later, more than a year in this investigation.

[SPEAKER_00]: Which is horrific.

[SPEAKER_00]: That is horrific.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, because, you know, I'm going to tell you, you know that that woman thinks about what did her daughter feel that in her last moments.

[SPEAKER_00]: They can't tell you for sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: No.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the times they [SPEAKER_01]: asked a team, they five doctors with expertise in critical care who independently reviewed Miss Hawkins records at the times request said it was all been impossible that her heart restarted after the waiting period.

[SPEAKER_01]: Research has found that when people are taken off, I support their hearts do not restart on their own after five minutes.

[SPEAKER_01]: So doctors said they were particularly struck by indications that Miss Hawkins was breathing, which meant she had at least minimal brain activity.

[SPEAKER_01]: They each said the declaration of death was very likely premature.

[SPEAKER_01]: One of them said, this is a quote, I highly doubt that proper procedures were followed because if they're followed correctly, this could not happen.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because what proper procedures, this part of this is supposed to be dead, not that not all those dead.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm telling you not kind of dead, not dead light mostly just slutteringly alive.

[SPEAKER_01]: Just wait.

[SPEAKER_01]: So apparently circulatory detonation had used to be largely forbidden, but there was a change in the nineties because there was a dying patient who asked the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center to remove her life support and donate her organs.

[SPEAKER_01]: The hospital honored her wishes, then spent two years creating guidelines for future cases.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's very upset.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's very upset.

[SPEAKER_00]: Also, I wanted to say those were those, so those six hundred and eighty two surgeries that they do at Cedar Sinai, those don't account, those are solid organ harvesting versus things like bone marrow, things like corneas.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's, that's also in the thousands.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a big business.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like huge business because if you think about it, [SPEAKER_00]: If they make a hundred that if the hospital gets a hundred thousand dollars.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, and I found this other too.

[SPEAKER_00]: This was what I found really interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: Here's the twenty twenty one organ acquisition charges.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: So for a heart in twenty twenty one and it was forty five thousand six six hundred and four dollars plus or minus.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, for the market itself.

[SPEAKER_01]: But you know, they don't sell organs.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, no.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but for a heart, I guess it is for surgery for five thousand, it was five fifty one hundred and thirty dollars double long is fifty six thousand plus or minus eight thousand four hundred and twenty liver is forty four thousand four hundred and seventy eight plus or minus four thousand.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is big business.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and there's a really, obviously, a really high demand people really need organs.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so the healthcare workers across the country have been recounting the cases that, I guess, for this investigation, they found that haunted them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Brianna Duff, a surgical technician, Colorado, said one patient, middle-aged woman was crying and looking around.

[SPEAKER_01]: But doctors sedated her and removed her from a ventilator, according to Ms.

[SPEAKER_01]: Duff and a former colleague.

[SPEAKER_01]: The patient did not die in time to donate organs, but did so hours later.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is a quote from a stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: She said, I felt like if she had been given more time on the ventilator, she could have pulled through.

[SPEAKER_01]: I felt like I was part of killing someone.

[SPEAKER_01]: So she temporarily left the medical field because of this.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just don't understand how anybody can sit there and do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So apparently for years, the transplant system that organ procurement and transplantation network has largely governed itself.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's oversight committee reviews complaints, but has rarely acted against the hospitals in fifty five and the fifty five procurement organizations that make up its membership.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, when I look at this, I go, I see how [SPEAKER_00]: this system created a Luigi.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because every corner, it's like even in your supposed to be able to have some dignity and death.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I also, and don't get me wrong.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love the fact.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm an organ donor myself.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love the fact.

[SPEAKER_01]: You said you would, but you haven't actually donated an organ.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, I would be.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a card.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, it says donor.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and for me, I look at, right, right.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we have a, we have friends.

[SPEAKER_00]: We were there when someone got an organ, you know, and that is one of the most joyous moments.

[SPEAKER_00]: ever because it is about prolonging people's lives.

[SPEAKER_00]: I believe in this, but we do have to have some kind of regulation.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, about the people.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I'm saying.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this is this is the most upsetting story.

[SPEAKER_01]: One of the most upsetting stories to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Danella Glegos, she in twenty twenty two when she was thirty eight years old and she was also homeless at the time unhoused.

[SPEAKER_01]: She was hospitalized and she went into a coma.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the doctors at Presbyterian Hospital, Albuquerque, told her family she would never recover.

[SPEAKER_01]: Her relatives agreed to donation, but as preparations began, they sought tears at her eyes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Their concerns were dismissed, according to interviews with the family and eight hospital workers.

[SPEAKER_01]: Donation coordinators said the tears were a reflex.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they can be.

[SPEAKER_01]: Tears can be a must be in voluntary response to irritants.

[SPEAKER_01]: On the day of the planned donation, Ms.

[SPEAKER_01]: Glegos was taken to a pre-surgery room where her two sisters held her hands.

[SPEAKER_01]: A doctor arrived to withdraw life support.

[SPEAKER_01]: Then a sister announced she had seen her sister, Ms.

[SPEAKER_01]: Glegos move.

[SPEAKER_01]: The doctor asked her to blink her eyes and she complied the room erupted in gas.

[SPEAKER_01]: Still, hospital workers said the procurement organization wanted to move forward.

[SPEAKER_01]: A coordinator said it was just reflexes and suggested more pain to reduce movements.

[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is what I'm telling you.

[SPEAKER_01]: A hospital refused instead workers brought her back to her room and she made a full recovery.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_00]: You cannot leave this up.

[SPEAKER_00]: This can't be.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can't have the same person who's going to have get people to sign away.

[SPEAKER_00]: Their loved ones are organs.

[SPEAKER_00]: Be the same person who's in charge of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: This cannot.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a business.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it shouldn't be just some may write.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I'm Francis Calier.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Angela V.

Shelton.

[SPEAKER_00]: We are friends.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you so much for listening to.

[SPEAKER_00]: Something?

[SPEAKER_00]: I ain't.