I’m Fred Faulkner, a husband and father with a passion for marketing and technology. I work at a top 50 consulting agency where I lead alliances and marketing for the digital experience and technology team. On this podcast, I share my thoughts, opinions, and experiences in business and in life.

This is my view of the world according to Fred.

Hi everyone, and welcome back to According to Fred, the podcast. Today is a special day because it is the first time I’m joined by someone to talk about tech, marketing, and more. And that someone is Amber Osborne. Amber is a VR, AR marketing specialist. She’s a Forbes top 50 most influential CMO on social media in 2018. One of the top 25 VR influencers, top women in VR, and the top 30 Twitter’s most influential marketers. Amber has helped startups like Tilt Five and global brands such as Adobe, Audi, and Lenovo. Her work with Adobe is actually how we met. Amber, thanks for joining me today to talk about VR.

Amber: Hi Fred, yeah, thank you for having me on and I’m so glad to keep you company.

Fred: Well, thank you. In the time of social distancing, and by the way, we are social distancing from far away. We are, from very far. I’m in Chicago and Amber is in…

Amber: Yep, exactly. So, we are definitely keeping our social distance, uh, uh. On par with what is we’re being required to do. Um, so yeah, excited about today’s episode. And again, thank you for joining me. I mean, it’s fun to talk to yourself sometimes, but it’s really not fun to talk to yourself.

Amber: I’ve been doing a lot of that recently.

Fred: Exactly. So I’m sure you have too. I have. So I’m excited to actually have a discussion. So, um, you know, we’re going to talk about definitely virtual reality. We have some great topics to talk about when it comes to conferences. But the first thing that I really want to know more about is… there’s got to be a story behind your Twitter handle, Destructo. So, so what’s the deal?

Amber: Yeah. So, uh, the Miss Destructo Twitter handle, uh, still gets a lot of comments on that actually. Um, so there’s two stories. Uh, I’ll give you the more PG version. Uh, it’s a morning show, you know? Uh, so when I was first starting my career in more of the blogging social media realm, um, I had used the moniker Destructo Girl for a long time. It was from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I know I’m not wrong with that. And, uh, I, uh, I was looking for another handle and I wanted something that really enveloped the soul of my blog and who it was for and I decided to go with Miss Destructo because I felt like I was helping destroy stereotypes, especially in business, um, at the time even because when I started getting into blogging and social media. You know, there were all of these experts out there that had huge marketing backgrounds that worked for agencies. And I was just this blue-haired 23-year-old kid who had a mohawk, who was just fresh out of college. I wanted to show other people who are like me that, you know, you can do it too. You know, you can build up your own brand. And so I started building up that brand that was Miss Destructo and still, still rocking the Twitter handle. But, uh, yeah, a few things have changed.

Fred: Personal branding. Yeah. Not the blue hair anymore, although I’m sure that can change pretty quickly if needed. But, uh, but yeah, I still get requests to bring it back. I still have some hardcore fans that are like, when are you bringing back the blue hair?

Amber: Yeah. That died a while ago. Yeah. I’m not 25 anymore. Thanks. Um, I still have half a shaved head. That is, that is true.

Fred: That is true. Um, so you’ve actually had a really interesting background in, in one of the things we actually have in common is that you and I are both fans of music. Um, and recently you picked up to learn the guitar inspired by one of our mutual friends. But can you tell me a little bit how music is a big part of your life? I know you’re a fan of Bowie, you know, alternative rock, you know, so what about music has inspired you in your life?

Amber: Oh my goodness, I don’t even know where to start on this because, uh, you know, music has definitely shaped my core of who I am, um, not only as a person, but how I’ve evolved, I would say in brand building myself as the personal brand. Um, cause you know, most musicians, they have personal brands and I’ve, I think I’ve really looked at musicians, how they brand themselves. Um, because a lot of the ones that I’ve worked with, it’s just so funny to see who they actually are when they’re off stage.

Fred: Stage, right? I mean, stage is a persona in some cases, not all. I mean, in some cases it’s actually the real person, right?

Amber: It absolutely is. It absolutely, it’s personal branding. There’s definitely your personal brand persona and then there’s maybe who you are. And a lot of times those intersect in the right place. And sometimes they’re two very different people. Sometimes two very different people. And I’ve kind of always felt that kind of split personality between business me, um, and then introvert me who would rather stay at home, which now I can’t get away from. But again, it’s definitely shaped the core of who I am, you know, growing up through the MTV era, you know, I fell in love with the visual artistry for music videos and attending bluegrass festivals with my dad every year and concerts with my mom. My first concert was Neil Diamond and I was just…

Fred: Donnie and Marie. Donnie and Marie, my grandmother took me and my brother to Donnie and Marie down in, you know…

Amber: Yep.

Fred: And the, the, oh man, I can, I can smell the polyester. Oh, it was, it was, it didn’t want to go. But it definitely is a distinct memory for sure. And, and that’s the thing is like, it creates music, creates such memories, you know? It’s so, it’s so personal.

Amber: Yeah.

Fred: That you, you, you all can be at a, the same concert, but have a different experience, you know? And the lyrics, you know, bring so much meaning and melodies bring so much meaning, right? I’m such a staples of your life, right? Moments where you’re like, that song is what in me is soundtrack to that moment, right?

Amber: Soundtrack to your life, you know? And, you know, after, after just, you know, growing up around so much of this, uh, worked in the music industry for a bit when I was in college and a little bit before that too, um, doing promotions and artist marketing, uh, for various record labels and bands themselves, a little bit of tour management, which that’s a completely other podcast. But again, I’ve been, I’ve…

Fred: Yeah, next time.

Amber: I’ve always been a lifelong student of music, you know, learning all the genres, the weird, obscure things. Um, the stories of the artists in the band, you know, my, my former, um, business partner, Eli used to joke around all the time with me saying that, you know, I was like the, the name that tune, uh, uh, name that tune kind of person. And then I knew more of the oldie station than he did. But I mean, it really does kind of have a, um, I would say, uh, a crossover and to, um, you know, almost kind of like virtual reality is that music can help transport you to another place.

Fred: Absolutely. And we’ll, we’ll talk about that because I, you know, as anything in virtual, virtual reality is only a certain amount of senses in today’s current state. And I have some, some thoughts around, I want to talk to you about kind of the other senses that can be brought in and what companies are doing these days. But, um, but yeah, I definitely, music is a big component of how VR works, I believe, at the end of the day.

Amber: Oh yeah, I mean, you know, again, like I was saying earlier, you know, allowing yourself to disconnect, um, you know, enriching yourself in the experience, either shared experience or your own personal experiences that you have with music and, um, you know, I, I personally feel like I, I’ve always been kind of, uh, anachronistic in that where you’re just, you know, you don’t feel like you’re. You’re of this place or, you know, needing that kind of escape for another place or another world.

Fred: Yeah, for sure. So, uh, so one more kind of like background kind of question. So you graduated from the University of Tampa with a communications degree and then you kind of did a bunch of music stuff, but did you ever think like you’d get into this technology space that you’ve gotten into your last part of your career here?

Amber: Um, I was honestly surprised that I made it out of Florida, number one. First step. Get out of Florida. First step, first step, get out of Florida. Um, did I ever think I was going to be in technology? Uh, I'd always, you know, I'd always been that kid who, who loved the Commodore 64 when I was in primary school and, you know, just loved technology and using technology, but I didn't think personally I was going to be in the tech field because I always felt   like it wasn't meant for me.

Um, and I was always trying to find my place, especially after college where I thought it fit in at, because I was always a creative. So it was like, Oh, you could go into advertising.

Fred: Yeah.

Amber: So then I would look at advertising, go check out some agency and be like, Oh yeah, this is not, you know, this is not for me.

Fred: I never thought I'd be in the agency space either. And here I am. So yeah, totally understand. It's just, it's so, it's so weird how those past, you know, can happen. But for me, where those, there's opportunities and where it kind of made that path for me was Twitter, believe it or not. Interesting. Interesting.

Amber: Um, my first, well, my first couple of business partners came from Twitter conversations. Well, they do say that Twitter is one of those platforms that, you know, really can connect people. And so, and it's, it is so open and having the right voice. Yeah. But it, it opens up. it opens up meeting people. I mean, that's, that's how we met, right?

We started through the Adobe influencer programs and then, you know, and you know, Twitter chats and the next thing you know, it's like, Hey, we're both going to be in Vegas at the same time and we should meet up. And that's, that's, I've had a number of my relationships build that way. It's so, it's, especially back, back in the day, back in the day of Twitter, uh, around 2008, 2009 or so, when people were starting to understand the, the value of it, um, nowadays, it's, It's, it's become a little bit of the wild, wild west.

And, and yes, if you are not, yeah, there's pros and cons to open megaphones when you hand people. Definitely any kind of platform, but I mean, Twitter has brought so many opportunities and great people. I mean, like you and like, you know, a lot of the people that I've met through the Adobe insiders program, it just, I could probably write a whole book on, on just the Experiences and opportunities that Technology has brought to my right.

Fred: Well, let's continue the technology conversation. So you've been the  CMO of virtual reality, virtual reality company, you know, Doghead simulations, that company offered VR for businesses. Um, you've been an advocate for VR for a while. What is it about virtual reality and expand also an AR if you want to as well, like what makes, what makes you so passionate about this technology and where is it taking us, you know, maybe in today's dynamic environment?

Amber: Well, I, you know, I've always been interested in new mediums. Um, For either creative expression or especially human connection. Um, just always being kind of an introvert myself. Uh, I think this is also why I found blogging and social media. So alluring when they were just. It's so brand new is because emerging technologies have always, um, I've always found very interesting kind of fascinated me as this organic living creature, you know, um, yeah, I, I think I've always been a good predictor of, of seeing the potential in these little sprouts that have turned into bigger trees, you know.

Fred: Absolutely. So, yeah. And VR is one of the, let's again, kind of setting the stage, probably should have this question first. So like, you know, virtual reality, taking someone into a whole dynamic environment that is, that's simulating something else. And there's artificial or augmented reality, which is adding data layers over something you're physically seeing in your, your own space.

Um, these are technologies that have been talked about like forever, right? Marketers and technologies like VR. It's not, um, it's not new, but it's not widely adopted. And we've seen some shifts happen in the last two, three years with major players coming into place. Um, mostly in the gaming space. Yeah.

Amber: First for starters, but, um, it's always been one of those things where you have to have money to get into it, right. Whether you are building the environments or whether you're playing or using the environment. It's it's the initial investment. Yeah. And that scares off a lot of people, including, you know, Oh, am I going to get motion sickness?

You know, how, which headset do I buy? Um, there's been so many different reasons why people have stayed away from it, but it's amazing how many people that I say, you know, have you used this app on your phone or have you played Pokemon go? And they're like, yeah, I'm like, well, that's AR. And they're like, Oh, Really?

Right. Right. Have you used Google Maps lately? Right. There's so, there's so many things that I think it's, I think it's more of an education, um, focus that, you know, again, it hasn't been the most affordable. No, it hasn't. It hasn't been the most user friendly, um, and the availability just to try it. Has been lacking in the past, but this has changed greatly in the past couple of years, even cheaper, better quality headsets, getting more headsets into the hands of the general public, you know, and how much you can be done on your phone versus having to have something else.

So, you know, if you take back the idea,   exactly. So like, you know, it starts with, you know, Google started with Google Cardboard, which was like, all right, the technology is your phone, slap it into this little box, device that you can get for 15 bucks, and, and you can at least start to experience stuff. Um, great idea, clearly, as a lot of things Google does, where they have a great idea that is initiating a conversation, um, hello, uh, what was the other Google product, uh, Google Glass, right?

Great idea, not something that's for prime time. So they're known to kind of put those things out in the marketplace first, but, but it takes a while to adapt and do it. That has evolved into, you know, needing, that, that's great. Um, fun experience to experience, but it's not something that I think was the right thing for the right, um, longevity.

Now we have hardware, like legit hardware, whether it's a Sony PlayStation thing, whether it's, um, VR, whether it's Oculus, whether it's steam. I mean, who else is out there? I mean, there's, uh, HTC. HTC there's, I mean, there's Pico, there's a   billion, you know, different little, little headsets that are out there, um, in, in so many different markets.

Um, but the, the main players, uh, there, there's a lot of, there's a lot of variety out there right now. And I think also what's confusing a lot of consumers is, you know, which one is right for me. Right. And what's the right use case. Well, it's that's the thing is like I think Just going This is a this is a completely uh different conversation, but Um, you know just even a year or two you had to have a pc gaming rig, right?

You run to run a decent quality headset, but you know, that's no longer the case with the standalone headsets. No. And that's actually kind of, again, what sparked me even wanting to have this conversation because we, we did have a dialogue over what was the right thing. So my son who's 12, Um, he wanted, we, you know, for some reason we started talking about VR and his birthday was last   year.

And, and he's like, um, oh, it was, uh, VR was kind of, kind of coming up and then he did on his own, some investigation turned out there's a VR studio. Lounge not far from us. So we are. Okay. Yeah, we are. Exactly. So we did, so we went through, we rented an hour, 40 bucks got a stall. Um, both my kids and I tried it out as an HTC Vive, you know, but again, it required the big PC that was sitting on the side and had this whole other set of like environments they had to set up, but we played, right.

And they played for an hour or an hour and a half, whatever we did it. But he, he was like, wow, this is, this is cool. Right. And the games were, were good there. That There's still a lot of, you know, potential where those are all going, but he then said like, dad, I want to have my birthday party here, which was in a couple of months.

So we're like, okay, we'll do that. So he rented, you know, three stalls for two hours, did a whole party there and he had six of his friends came over and everyone got 20 minute rotations and got to experience it. But his thing was for, you know, birthday, the smart kid and like, he's like, dad, how do I get one of these things?

I'm like, well, you got to save your money. Cause dad's not buying it for you. So he did. He saved his money and asked for people like for his birthday. Like, can I just have   cash? Cause you know, I want to, I want to get this cause we were looking at, um, well, I asked you kind of what different ones are out there, but we ended up getting the Oculus quest.

Cause I didn't, I didn't have a PlayStation and wasn't planning on buying a PlayStation and we have an Xbox. So I'm like, I'm not buying another gaming system for that one. Um, but we did get the quest and the reason why we got the quest is because it didn't require a PC. We knew there was some limitations on the, on the game front, but it was standalone and that was.

That was like the first time where I was like, okay, so we saved up and we got it right. I, we bought it the week of black Friday, but like on a Wednesday and by black Friday weekend, they were sold out till February, right? And still is. And it's like, so, so what makes, you mentioned the standalone. So what in your opinion is making the standalones?

Like, is that, have we reached this tipping point? So with devices, hardware. So there is, I love, I always love this question because, um, in, in the industry, uh, there tends [00:18:00] to be kind of the, the sixth off or GTFO segment, um, that once the six degrees of freedom, the full movement, the high quality graphics, um, And they're like, this is where the market's going.

And it's like, yeah, they're, they're great systems, especially, you know, if you want to play the games, like half life Alex and, um, haven't done that one yet, but I'm not sure you have, you have to post something about that. I do have to, I do have to get, I have to be sensitive to what I get. Cause my kids are going to want to play it, but yes, I don't think it's, it's, I probably want to do the, um, no, I may get it and then delete it.

So we'll see. Yeah, but it's, it's, it's incredible how. Many people have the the once of the the sixth off But then there's so many people that haven't been introduced to vr yet They're just happy with the you know The headsets that are standalone and you can just move up and down and and have the three degrees of   freedom.

Fred: Yep

um Again, it depends on the person using it. And a lot of people are just going to be happy with being able to do, um, simpler things. Now, if you want to have the Beat Saber, if you want to have like the, the, the more full range of motion games or the workout apps, which I love, um, You know, go for those headsets, but they're going to be more expensive.

Yeah. It's going to be more of an investment. Yep. And, and we do enjoy, like, we do family beat saver competitions on Friday night. Awesome. So it's like, all right. And we've downloaded some of the music packs. Well, now I got green day and I got, uh, green day, imagine dragons. I forget what the other one they have is.

We started downloading some of the music packs, which at least, like, I'm glad to see that I'm glad they're adopting more mainstream music, which is great. So, um, that makes it exciting more. And we've done a couple of like we downloaded some game called rush, which is like, um, wingsuit flying. And I can only do that for like maybe a track before I start to lose my equilibrium.

My husband loves   those like very, um, very immersive. Like, and I'm like, I don't know if I could do this, but there's a lot of things out there right now. I mean, Beat Saber is incredible and people think it's just a game. Um, for those that start sweat, you know, Oh my goodness. I mean, the, the headsets, they get gross, but it is so worth it.

Cause a 30 minute worth of workout, you're losing, you know, it's 500 calories gone. And you're like, I just worked out. Yeah. You're walking out and you're like, well, just, but, and you said the key word there and I do believe what really is setting, um, the potential. So we're going to kind of dive into another part of this is like is the immersive part.

Right. So having audio, right. Hearing wind fly by you, you know, you're not feeling it. feeling it. We don't have the haptic component yet from that perspective. We don't have the, the mousetrap or they don't. Yeah. I saw an article this week that Northwestern University has got some, some haptic skin kind of stuff they're working on.

Um, I've   got to play around with some of that stuff. It is, it is exciting. So, so I mean, I'd even just take the gloves and the vests, you know, to start off with instead of the, um, you know, having to hold controllers. And I know I can just give you, you know, some, they're doing some stuff with hand detection.

And I know everyone is doing it, but the immersiveness, like I can be in a beat saber game for three songs, two songs. And I forget that I'm in my living room, right? You take it off. You're like, Oh man, I'm in my living room. I'm not in, I mean, it is a surreal experience, right? At least a couple of times. It is a surreal experience.

And I appreciate the fact that that is where the potential is. And when you think of the, you know, apps that are like National Geographic, that can take you to Mount Upeachy, right? Or take you to the top. Yeah. And they can, you can start to explore the world. And as we now live in this more isolated environment, at least for the time being, it's almost like an interesting gateway into the world.

So much more from an education standpoint, from your pure hobbyist interest standpoint, um, but not a big investment. I mean, again, everyone's budgets are different,   but like, I mean, the Oculus, the 64 gigabyte Oculus Quest is still only, it's less than 500 bucks. Um, right. And you know, I'm telling people, right.

I've been telling people, I'm like, you know, you're going to spend that much on Nintendo switch after you get, you know, after you get all the games and everything like that. So if you're looking for a way to Go hang out on a beach, you know, maybe take a break in between all of your, all of your zoom calls and all of your meetings and stuff from home.

It's a good way to escape for a little bit. And not only that it's, it's great. I would say it's, it's great for, um, uh, kids to also have on a front of creativity too. So there's so many things in there that they can create and build like tilt brush. Um, That, you know, it allows them to also feel. Social too, because I mean, for me, I use it for social all the time.

So   that's an interesting thing. And this kind of, so unfortunately my son, um, he's only one of his friends that has it. So we, we haven't, he's like, can I download this? And I'm like, like, dude, like until I know you have friends. Yeah. Like until you have friends that are on it, um, I really can't let you get that app.

Um, you know, but I get what you're going with it. Um, and same, precautions we got to take with the Xbox. You know, it's like who's losing your friends that work, who's is a friend or a friend of a friend or a friend of a friend of a friend. Um, but I have noticed, and this is a whole other podcast for me, which is how have gaming systems become.

You're social circles because you know a lot of these systems don't let you play two players anymore in the same room You have to be on separate. You have to multiplayer online And so, you know having my kids argue over who gets more Xbox time because that's how they actually interact with their friends They want to talk to their friends, even if you're not playing the same game, you're in a party You're doing something else like that's how they communicate and you know and my wife's like you know, we're not getting a second one.

And there's a part of me that's like, I think we kind of need to get a second Xbox   because like, there's two kids, and they, it's not because they want to play together, it's because this is how they talk. Like, this is how they communicate. I mean, it's, unfortunately, don't come home when the lights, you know, when the streetlights come on, and it's five o'clock, like it's, It's get off the xbox it's one in the morning you can't stop you know type of stuff so um, it's very interesting in how technology is enabling new ways of social networking and just in in In vr headsets.

I mean, you don't even have to have vr headsets like you can have friends that have browsers Um just a desktop and you can interact with them And from your vr headset, right, uh with some apps there's um Mozilla hubs, which I I like because you can create your own environments Um with your friends kind of make your own clubhouse kind of anything you can make anything and I I love that aspect Um that is just easy to just drop in And and hang out with your friends and they don't have to have a vr   headset.

So that's that's an awesome Um way for just adults or kids to to connect Um as well as big screen you can sit around and watch movies with your friends and Right. Um, and you can even mystery science series 3000 if you want to, which is also fine. Yeah. Uh, so that's good to know that there's other alternatives, which I didn't know about.

So I have to kind of investigate that to see what we can do to, to give some more potential. You can always ask me, man. Oh, I know. And I should have known better. Just put it in the DMs and I got the hookup for you. So let's talk about now some other applications of where maybe VR is coming into place. So.

Um, as previously mentioned, we met at Adobe Summit, um, you know, virtually first and then, you know, in person, um, last year, this year, Adobe Summit was supposed to happen last week. Um. A couple of weeks ago. Yeah. Yeah. Last week. It was last week. It was last week. I think, um, it's crazy, but we didn't get to go because amid all the, the, the world we live in at the moment of, you know,   change, um, but Adobe did a very interesting thing and they went virtual.

It wasn't virtual in the sense of like. virtual. But you know, there's been over 350 conferences canceled this year from now can, um, mobile world congress, um, thousands. I mean, it's the numbers just are growing by the day. And November, December, even, it's, it's, it's nuts. And while that affects a whole other level of business and interaction and stuff that goes on in the world, You know, we're the world, the word virtual and virtual conference these days is not virtual in the sense of what we've been talking about from a virtual reality.

So it could be video, it could be recorded like Adobe did. It could be, you know, there's a couple going on next week that on 24 is hosting. So it's kind of like they got the expo floor kind of scenario. I've been through some of those before in the past too, but it's not the same live experience. However, VR offers this ability to do that type of stuff.

So look, so where, where can, again, hardware limitations set aside, you know, we haven't gotten to the technology around how to build   the environments, which I'd love to talk about briefly after this, but like, where is the potential and the potential is there. So how can VR be that real answer to virtual reality?

So I've been, this has been, uh, I've gotten so many questions about this in the last couple of weeks because people are all scrambling and trying to figure out alternatives. Um, and again, there's, there's video, right? But there's also been the question of, Hey, how can we even supplement this? Our video or streaming with a VR element so people can interact, you know, be immersed in the same environment.

Um, because that's what conferences are about, right? You're physically going to a place, the production value that goes in. I mean, Adobe Summit and a lot of these other conferences puts huge amounts of dollars into the amazing experiences you have there that You will never replicate in a webinar and it's also the, you know, the social aspect of it too.

I believe we know one of our first interactions   was, I just ran by your booth, right? Right. Say hello. We, we met at, you know, an after event. Um, and that has been one of. The biggest like how do we replicate that because you can throw everyone in a chat room, but it's like You're not really sharing that experience so just a couple of weeks ago good good example, um, I Uh tuned into the IEEE Conference, uh that was done Through a variety of different channels that they had it streaming through twitch They had a couple of different but the the main center of it was um in mozilla hubs And you could interact with the speakers and they had breakout hallways that you could be like social with people in between um the different the different speakers and It was such an amazing effort because this is a huge academic   conference with over 2 000 people You That had to be moved online, and it was moved into this, uh, VR social space, and it was just incredible to see, um, just how people responded to it, because a lot of these people, they work around VR, they've experienced VR, but they were very, um, also grateful that, you know, This was happening in VR and that it went off so well because it was just such a cool, memorable experience.

That's, that's good to know that there's potential, right? That there's, you know, there's something that can be done. Yes, it can be done, but it is still a lot. It's a lot of effort because there's a lot going on in the background. You're not just flipping a switch and, and saying that, you know, we're going to have a conference in VR.

It's a lot of different moving pieces in the background. And so the technology is not just. The headset itself, right. There's there's the environments, which is, you could have   really rudimentary environments or you could have these high complex environments that are almost like this, right. So the gaming component can be brought into a lot of experiences, not just a game, right?

So you can create these immersive worlds that can replicate an expo, hall, a conference room that can replicate a lot of things, but it's not something that is just like.

Um, and I think that's one of the conversations we talked about at that first summit was what type of skill set is needed to actually create these environments to make the experience worthwhile. So it's been amazing because even the last couple of years since I've been really immersed in this industry, um, I had had the previous knowledge of, you know, you need to be a unity, need to be proficient in unity and these game engines to.

Create anything in vr, especially environments, right? So   but that's not the case, especially nowadays Um, it's getting easier and easier for just anybody even kids to create What they want in vr. Um Web xr is is something that I recommend people to look into where it's more. Um, You know, you can you can create Uh, different different things inside of VR, and you don't need to, you know, have have engineering background.

However, I've seen some projects that are pretty intense.

Fred: Sure.

So there's, uh, you know, inside Mozilla hubs. There's a world environment builder called spoke that you can Uh, go into Sketchfab and pick out different items and place them into a room. Some of them are really, really detailed too, and it's really cool what people can build.

So there's so many options right now for people that you don't need to, you know, be, you know, be a Unity developer or, you know, Unreal Engine   savvy to, to, to make something. That's interesting. I mean, I'm glad the barrier of entry is, is becoming smaller, right? Because that is going to enable more, right?

It's again, hardware, one tipping point, software experience, another tipping point. Um, and then there's a storytelling component to all this too when it comes to VR. And again, whether you're doing a conference replacement, um, cause that is again an experience that needs to be created, or whether you're doing a game or, or some other interaction, I mean, there's a storytelling and so it's, Like anything.

Yeah. It's not one faceted. Um, it is definitely something that can go deep and in lots of different places, right? Yeah. And especially in VR, because you have another element of the immersion that you can tell stories in ways that people are actually experiencing them or living through them, or there's a sense of empathy when you're going through stories.

Fred: Absolutely. Absolutely.

And through the either games or, I mean, just for game   experience alone, I think that's why also Half Life, Half Life Alyx has had reviews, you know, at the top of the charts, because you're able to place someone into a game, um, and the cinematics are just incredible. Right. And that's one thing about it, right?

I mean, the environments, the, that component where you're, how, how far you get immersed, but it is again, sound, light. Yeah. You know, visuals. you know, interaction, how well can you move? So, I mean, again, limitations, like if you have to use a controller that are in your hands versus at some point it's going to be.

hand recognition which at some point it might be, and I know these exist, but you know how will people get omni directional treadmills or you know so you can actually, instead of just pushing a button to move on the controller, you're actually moving, even though you only move inches at a time, but the point being is that, it's the, future is bright.

Right? The future is so bright, VR thinks that this is going to be too much for them, or they   can never build or create in this. There's, there's ways to do it. You know, you're not, you're not limited anymore.

Fred: Right.

Um, and just even going into like the ready player one. I listened to that book on odd on audible.

I probably listen to that book once every other month. And I have the movie, which of course is a whole different experience. Is that the storyline of the movie? The book's way better, but, you know, I can't quite let my kid listen to that one because it's going to spoil a few life lessons for him in the first chapter still.

Um. That is true. So you've got to be careful about that, but, um, the fact that, you know, we could be eventually maybe at this dystopia of, you know. Yeah. A world where, you know, our world doesn't matter as much as the world and the persona you create online. I mean, I look at the potential of what a fortnight kind of lives in a little bit, but yet this whole other, I don't know, I get excited about the opportunity, but then I get scared at the same time.

Right. So. Me too. Me too. So I actually, this is one of my favorite things to talk about because I think when you say you work in VR, people are like, Oh, are   you creating the Oasis? And it's like, well. Yeah. So. We're not there. Hopefully, you know, hopefully I, I, I personally, I believe that I don't want to see that future.

No, I don't want to see that future either. Everyone in headsets, you know, for the entire day, letting the whole world go to crap around them, you know, before you, before you go into like, I do like when I walk by like my kids, sometimes like ones like they have a little man cave. And so like one's on the X Box with his headset and his controller, the other one's on the, the, Oculus watching YouTube and he's just sitting there in a chair, like with his legs crossed and I'm like, Oh my God, what did I, what have I enabled?

Um, that being said, there's the thing is potential of these worlds. Yeah. The potential of these worlds and the social ability and making the world smaller in many ways. Um, it's, it's like any, I think, I think us on the other side of it, being technologists, we do have a responsibility to make sure that, Especially when we're creating   anything around escapism that there has to be limitations.

Yes and education definitely education on Especially for other generations of you know, what is what is too much? I mean with any anything. Um, you know, I'm a, I'm a huge science fiction nut. And I believe there's a lot of lessons that we can learn from these fictional stories. Um, well, especially because a lot of fictional stories are becoming reality, right?

I mean, tell me, I, I love Philip K. Dick and just seeing some of the things that he's talked about in books, you know, being real now. It's just, it's so surreal right now. But I do appreciate the fact that there can be a world that, you know, whether you want to call it escapism, whether it actually has a marketing and business value that's created because you can create these virtual conferences or places that people can go when you can't physically get there and make it more interactive than a zoom conference or a video conference or, or talking on the   phone.

Um, it, it is, I don't know. It'd be very interesting. intersection where we're going to be coming up to soon that everyone's going to start taking advantage of. It is interesting because I'm seeing more and more lifestyle apps, um, also coming into beyond just the social. So the workout apps, um, there's one called supernatural that I'm actually trying out this weekend that I'm super psyched about, but it's, it's becoming more of something that I'm seeing, like people are going to have this in their everyday lives.

Um, and where I've always kind of stood on that is that our lifestyles need to be enhanced by VR and AR, um, not replaced, not replaced, you know, not the, Oh, it's eight AM. Like we get my headset for eight hours and ignore my family kind of thing. Right? Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's kind of the way I kind of feel.

So enhance your life. I kind of feel the same way about like digital assistants, right? I never want, I never want Siri or Google assistant or,   Um, you know, Cortana or, you know, whoever, whichever platform you're using, you know, I won't Bixby. Oh, why can't they just name one Steve? I know, right? I don't like, you know, what does it have to, Alexa?

Right. You know, the Steve. Yeah, Steve. Exactly. So I can't wait to actually rename mine because then all this, you know, it'll be like, Hey, you. So, um, but they, you know, you're the, you need to be the protagonist in your own story, right? These are not supposed to be replacing your decision makers. They're here to help you make your life better here to help not replace your life.

Um, there is a great, there's a, I love talking about virtual worlds because there's a great documentary about people who met in second life. You remember second life. Yeah. Probably one of the first virtual worlds that were out there. Right. So these are people who met in second life and then met in real life.

Um, spoiler alert, it didn't end very well But people were so immersed in   these Uh, second, again, a second lives and these, these false realities that they created and false, um, uh, just even storylines around the people that they were meeting that they didn't know where to blur properly the line. And I think that comes back to that comment you said about safety and just kind of like, Dual personas and that is the danger component of it all.

Same with Twitter for the most part, right? You don't know if you're a dog blogging. You don't know if you're a 33 year old man in your mom's basement named Chuck, you know, tweeting, um, thinking you're somebody else. It's, it's like anything else that education is a habit, but it's Yeah, education and also, you know, making sure that there are the ethical guidelines that are being built while things are being built.

Um, And, uh, a lot of people are working on this issue right now, especially in the VR industry, because it is, you know, it is, it is something that   we all do think about, um, you know, how far could this go and making sure that everyone behaves. Yeah, the applications are endless, but with response, like with great power comes great responsibility.

And that's what I think about every Well, you know, in the medical industry, the same way, if you think about how stem cell research is being done, you know, I mean, every industry has their ethics line that needs to be completely in check as you're using technology, as you're, you know, Innovating new experiences or new solutions or, or new, um, outcomes based on a number of factors.

Right. So I'm glad we talked about the ethics component of all because

Fred: Yeah, me too. It as

cool as it's so important, VR is, and the potential for AR and, and stuff, there's still privacy, there's still, um, you know, the, the ethics of social engagement. There's still all the, you know, replacing your real life with a virtual life.

I mean, those are all, yeah, there's it, it's, um. Again, that's the kind of like more, the scary part, but you have to have that governance and that kind   of line there to keep everything else in check. It's scary, but at the same time, you know, when people do bring up those questions, especially people that are new to VR, um, I'm like, yeah, you know, It's being worked on, you know, to know that there are companies and people out there that are building these products that do care, um, uh, about privacy and about security, about all kinds of things.

So when someone builds a VR product, we're definitely thinking about more than just the product itself. Um, at least. The ones that, you know, care about people, right? Absolutely. What other applications do you think are out there and the potential for, and we said there's a lot, there's infinite applications, but what are the ones that get you most excited about kind of in the near term future, um, as it comes to VR in, I don't know, certain use cases, whether it's education and healthcare and you know, what is,   what's your education?

Well, I think education. I know your wife. So a teacher now. She is, she is. And believe me as, as we've learned and gotten into our first full week of e-learning, um, and as I have younger children, um, that we're also helping it, it is, I mean the, the potential I think is huge from that standpoint. Um, 'cause absolutely, I think everyone's in this reduced world right now.

Um, but I'll also say as much as the potential is in, also in education, there's other factor of. The educators being educated on what technology is available, right? So that's, yeah, there's a whole gap that's going on there, but all kinds of components that need to go into putting, um, any kind of education and VR, um, initiative into play, uh, just even previously with my experience over at Doghead and with Ruby because Ruby is essentially, it's an edu, you know, you can have classes, you can have conference halls, conference halls, and all kinds of things in here. 

And It is one part education, educating the educators, um, and then the kids usually get it immediately. Yeah. I mean, how many kids can use a smartphone without even blinking an eye, but trying to get, you know, maybe someone else has been more around, not around tech. Like, yeah, I totally get the kids are adaptable.

What, what I really love about, Um, any kind of, uh, education platforms in vr is the immersiveness and the retention that you get the information retention that you get from it Even even when i'm in vr conferences, I feel especially in headset. I feel more focused Because there's not the distractions going on around me.

Well, you lose your personal vision Yeah. Even when you're, when you're, you know, when you're in your house and you've got things going on, especially right now, it can be a little, it can be a little distracting, of course. Especially when you turn your head and you're still in the same world. So unless you program a distraction, the distraction is not there.

Yeah. And it's, it's also a good way   to allow. Um, kids to feel like they're in the same environment. And that's something that I keep on hearing. I'm sure you've heard it, you know, from your kids. Like, I miss my friends. Yeah. And the teachers miss their students. I mean, there's a big, you know, there's a big component of that too.

And, um, and if you only so much that a video can actually do. Absolutely. And you know, again, who has access? You have parody around that. Um, can you only record something and then people can do it on their own time? Agreed. But I do think in an Again, going back to the Ready Player One example, because there's a whole section in the book and that talks about, they don't really talk about the movie, so this is definitely a book thing, um, where they, you know, there was, you know, physical schools moved into VR schools, right, and they're funded that way, and, but the way they describe some of it in the chapter is, you know, I can, You know, today in science, you know, we're going in inside the human to see how the blood vessels work and, you know, go through the travel through the heart, right?

And, you know, in geography, we went to this place,   you know, we went to the pyramids. When I was over, um, at Dog Head, you know, we had, we had, um, uh, a class from Harvard be able to explore the pyramids. And go and explore these tombs before they actually physically went there to go, um, on, on this, uh, you know,

Fred: Right.

But it's, those things are just so cool to see people just be like, wow, cause you're, you're there. Yeah. You know, but I feel on the wind. Right. You're not feeling the wind. Okay. So let's, let's jump really, let's jump to this next one. So this is the, so what's right now, VR is really a headset, immersive headset and a set of, um, controllers that have haptic feedback, you know, where you're grabbing, but if something grabs something and you're pushing two buttons and you're turning around, like there's some that the haptics of the immersiveness.

has limitations. So we know there's companies out there. There's universities that are creating more haptic. related gear, whether it's,   you know, vests that can also sense and have hundreds of thousands of little haptic controllers in there, whether it's a second skin. So where's the next immersion level, the headsets, one thing, making them smaller, making them less heavy, making them better quality, but that's, that's going to continue to go, but we're missing another set of senses, ready player one, you know, the gloves, the haptic suits were the, were We're a big component of being able to fully be immersed in those worlds,

Fred: right?

There are quite a few companies. There's one that stands out. That's actually here in Seattle. That's called haptic So hap with an X that they've been working on haptics gloves for a long time And I've gotten to try them out and it's just super cool. So you can feel like it's This little vr goat you can feel the the goat jump onto your hand like something would jump onto your hand you   can feel Um, the spot of the spider the spider is my favorite right?

You can feel this spider's little legs just and they do it by you know, pressure they do it by pressure Yeah, but I think I think the gloves are gloves are Probably the next thing that we're going to see Um hit the market. There's plenty of companies that have have Had more uh consumer level, uh gloves out there for vr and then we're gonna see more of the the suits happen, um Because there's probably certain industries That yeah that you know are already thinking about that You know, the suits as, as well as, you know, for, for training purposes, for firefighters or, um, anything that you can have a temperature around.

So we're going to be probably seeing the next couple of years after, um, headsets and everything become a little bit more. Commonplace. Um, because again, you're going to have to have probably the top of the line headset to even get the haptics to   work. Yeah. Okay. One more thing on the whole hardware. And then I think, you know, we're probably got, we can continue to talk for hours on this stuff, but, um, so back to the heart, you know, Harvard.

So there's a lot of the stuff in the, even in the Oculus quest is sitting at rendering in real time on On the headset itself. So they're kind of heavy. They're a little bit bulky to get to something smaller. The technology needs to kind of advance. And so I've usually when you're looking at all the trends reports and everything was talking about AR and VR 5g is the thing that comes right is like right there with it.

So you know, is it, and I've read an article literally, you know, in preparation for this conversation. That's yesterday. It was like, well, 5g. takes the rendering burden off the device, and it just becomes a streaming component versus so. So that means everything gets smaller, right? Everything gets more maybe affordable.

Um, 5g is his own little thing in and of itself, you know, that's out there. But how are these, how are these intersections? Yeah. How are these intersection again, helping the tipping point continue to   make these things more mainstream? So, uh, 5G is, is quite the topic, especially right now. Um, but how I've seen it used in VR is more of, again, like you said about the reduction of, of certain things like audio, especially, um, that, Latency, I would probably say is the biggest one.

And so you don't have the lag. So you don't have, um, you're able to do more on the communication front. Again, I've, I've used 5g, um, alongside partners like Ericsson and stuff, doing demos, uh, and conferences where, you know, the wifi is usually the worst through, through 5g. And it's amazing. Like the quality of the audio and the interactions and everything are so much smoother now.

Is that going to make the headsets smaller? Are we going to   be able to have the smaller, less bulkier headsets because of 5G? Um, maybe. Okay, maybe. We're not talking Ray Bans here all of a sudden, right? We're talking at least though something that, I mean, there's also again, distance from the eye. There's a lot of other components that make the headsets work, right?

You can't just put on glasses. There's adoption of, there's also the adoption of the 5G technology that has been, um, Uh, a little bit more slow down because of people being more resistant to, um, 5G, um, and, and things like that. So, you know, it's been, it's been hard enough to get the VR headsets into people's hands, you know, throw 5G on top of that.

Um, we might have a little bit more work to do. So it's going to be interesting to see, um, 5G and VR and where it goes. For sure. Well, we know VR isn't going anywhere but up, uh, in many ways, and I've really enjoyed our conversation today about   VR and the potential. I know, you know, from a marketer's perspective, I think there's a cornucopia of so much we can do, and it's not just about esports and branding and advertising, but it's, you know, in the world of experiences, which is where people are, you know, is everyone's got an expectation today.

Um, This is again, is, is VR and AR going to be a tipping point in 2020 or 2021? Probably not, but it's going to continue to advance and it's probably in the next five year horizon where I think, you know, maybe given current dynamics, maybe it's a little longer now, but I do think that the tipping point is coming and in different ways, right?

I don't, I don't think we can just assume VR is a gaming experience and that's it. And that's, I'm glad we talked about all these different experiences you can have inside of virtual reality space. Um, but I think those use cases are going to continue to advance more and more. And I think that's, again, aspects of the adoption that are going to be phenomenal moving forward.

Absolutely.   Absolutely. The more that we can get people in the VR headsets and the more that they go, Oh wow, they have that wow moment.

Fred: Yeah.

I think that we'll see. Especially right now, more and more people willing to willing to take a chance in an investment. Yeah, for sure. Well, I have appreciated our conversation.

I think we're going to wrap up the episode on this note on a high note. Um, thank you so much again, Amber, for joining me today. So if anyone wants to get and they know how to get ahold of me, but if anyone wants to get ahold of you, you know, we have Miss Destructo on Twitter, but how, how can anyone jump on and reach out to you if they want to talk more about VR or business opportunities or anything of that nature?

How can they get ahold of you? so much. Bat signal carrier pigeons at this point. Um, but you can, you can find me via my website, uh, amberosborne. com or Twitter, uh, under miss destructo, M I S S G S T R U C P O. And we'll put a bunch of links in the show notes to some of the stuff we've talked about today.

And again, Amber, thank you so much for spending some time with me today. And we will, we will   definitely do it again soon. And we'll, we'll jump on other topics as well. Awesome. Thank you. So that was my conversation with Amber Osborne about VR. And to be honest, we only scratched the surface of what virtual reality can do today and the potential for the future.

In fact, I'll probably end up doing another episode going further into some of the business applications that VR can be used and just kind of seeing where the future holds. So that's it. Another episode in the books. Before you leave, if you like what you heard today, I'd love it if you subscribe so you can stay up to date when I drop new episodes.

If you really liked what you heard, I'd appreciate it if you gave this podcast a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to them. Maybe even drop a review. It really would mean the world to me. Also, if you want to send me a note or want to share some comments and feedbacks on what you heard, you can reach me at fred at according to fred.

com or on Twitter at according to Fred. Thank you for listening and I'll catch you on the next  one.