It seems like struggles with pornography get mostly airtime these days since it is so available in modern times.

However, drug abuse and substance addiction is growing at shocking rates.

As a church leader, you need to be prepared.

We have a library full of resources focused on this topic.

The presentation I would recommend you start with is Joseph Grenny's presentation about what we can learn from Captain Moroni to help our loved ones overcome struggles with drugs and alcohol.

His story of how he loved his son through his addiction is powerful and redemptive.

You can listen to this presentation in the recovering saints library by going to leadingsaints.org/fourteen.

Put your information in there and that will give you fourteen days at no cost.

I made it easier for you and put the link in the show notes or you can go to leadingsaints.org/1four.

The following episode is a throwback episode, one that was published previously and was extremely popular.

To see the details of when this was originally published, see the show notes.

Enjoy this throwback episode.

Welcome back to the Leading Saints podcast.

My name is Kurt Franckam, and I'll be your host.

Now, if you're new to the Leading Saints podcast, this is an organization where we produce a podcast.

And that podcast is always about leadership in the context of being a better Latter day Saint leader.

So if you're new, we welcome you.

And we hope that you'll share with friends.

You'll keep listening and listen to many other episodes that you can jump into, plenty of content to peruse.

Now, in this episode is a unique episode because I interview Frank Leighton.

Now Frank Leighton was the coach of the Utah Jazz from 1981 to 1989.

He was instrumental in drafting and signing franchise mainstays like John Stockton and Karl Malone to the club.

In 1984, Leighton was awarded the NBA's coach of the year.

The same season, he also won the NBA's executive of the year and most recently received the 2019 Chuck Daly Lifetime Achievement Award.

For those of you who have lived in Utah, you know that he is a gem in our community.

An Irish Catholic from Brooklyn, New York, Coach Layden came to Utah unexpectedly when the New Orleans Jazz became the Utah Jazz.

He fell in love with the area and community and now lives in Downtown Salt Lake City with his wife, Barbara.

Now though coach Layton doesn't have a Latter day Saint background, I jumped at the opportunity to interview him because he's such a unique leader in the Latter day Saint Utah community.

He shares some remarkable leadership principles in this interview.

You gotta pay close attention to and they all apply to coaching obviously, but many of them, if not all of them apply to leading as a Latter day Saint.

So coach Layton jumped right into a story, when I handed him the mic.

So I hit record as quickly as I can.

So you're gonna jump into the this conversation as it goes.

Now stay tuned till the end of the interview where I'll share some of my takeaway and some of the principles that really stood out to me in this interview that, I thought were genius, approaches to leadership.

So here is my interview with coach Frank Laden, former Utah jazz head coach and one of Utah's favorite Catholics.

This is what mister Mack said one time.

The guy the guy that builds the ladders.

You know?

You ever see it on TV, the ladders?

Yeah.

Is that his name?

He has the ladders, the crazy ladders.

Well, we saw him put on a little exhibition.

We were at some kind of an outing or something like that.

And afterwards, I would get introduced and everything, and we go to them.

Mister Mack was standing next to me, and he said, this guy, whoever he was, he was a fan of the candidate, and he says, oh, I've heard you speak, and I know what you've done and everything.

He says, have you thought about joining the church?

So I said, well, I thought I was in the church, but, anyway, I haven't really given much consideration.

And mister Max says to the guy, leave him alone.

He says he's more help to us outside the church than in it.

Wow.

He goes, Frank Leighton's a friend of ours.

Nice.

He says, and he sells us, he says, more than if he were in the church.

Wow.

You know?

And I said that that was quite a compliment, I thought.

You know?

Yeah.

For sure.

And, of course, president Monson said one time when I was speaking at a dinner, after it was over, I kidded about needing a green card to get into Provo and, you know, what have you.

Being being, the honor code was being administered to me.

I didn't even know it.

But, anyway, when I got over, he, he said, and I thought this was wonderful.

He said, Frank Leighton is one of our treasures, he says, because he makes us laugh at ourselves.

Oh, that's great.

President Monson.

Yeah.

Yes.

Wow.

And I bet that you didn't expect yourself to end up in Utah.

Right?

No.

No.

In fact, I tell my friends back in Brooklyn that I'm here in the witness protection program.

It's working, I mean, how how do you get to Utah?

I thought Utah was in Europe when I was growing up.

Are you kidding me?

Holy cow.

And so for those I mean, they may not know a little bit of the history.

I mean, they you were first hired by the New Orleans jazz.

Right?

Yes.

I, had been I grew up in Brooklyn, New York, streets in New York, single parent.

My mother died when I was born and my my childbirth.

Oh, wow.

So, anyway, I remember my coaches early on saying, if you, get good grades and you play ball or something, you may be able to get a scholarship to college.

Now if I don't get a scholarship to college, maybe I go some other way, but because in New York City, you you can go to school free.

I mean, you can go to City College in New York, Brooklyn College, all those schools.

I said, but but playing ball sounded good too, and that's what happened to me.

You know?

I I had coaches who believed in me and worked with me, and and eventually, I got a scholarship to college, and I got into coaching and teaching.

For ten years, I was a school teacher.

On which teacher?

Bust of history.

History.

I was a history teacher.

Yeah.

Ten years.

Wow.

I had been I had been in the service.

I had been in the ROTC in the Korean War and and what have you as an officer.

And and when I got out, I didn't know what I was gonna do.

And my college coach says, you you should go into coaching.

You should work with kids.

And so that's what I that's how I started.

So then I went from there to a small college, then eventually from a small college, Dowling College on Long Island to Saint John's, which is a big college, and from there to, eventually, to the, Niagara University where I played and coached and then to the Atlanta Hawks as an assistant coach.

And I left the the Hawks to go with the New Orleans Jazz.

And before I blinked, alright, here I was moving to to Utah.

Utah.

Because, at that time, Wanda Lachey, who was the, the publisher of the Deseret News, was working very hard after the loss of the stars here and the ABA team to get an another team here, an NBA team preferably.

And Sam Battistone was a member of the church.

He was a a LDS, and he had children at BYU.

And they they talked and what have you.

And finally, they persuaded him to come to Salt Lake City.

And the whole idea was to come play here, establish ourselves, and then to build an arena, which eventually happened down the line.

So, you know, I came home to Barbara.

I'm gonna never forget, and I told her is, that I would, I said, well, I've got good news and bad news.

She says, what's the good news?

I said, the good news is I got the job at the Jazz.

She said, well, that's great.

So what's the bad news?

I says, we're moving to Salt Lake City, Utah.

And she said, where is that?

In England?

So and what was your, perception of Utah at this point in your life?

Been here.

Yeah.

I'd been I knew Jack Gardner, and I knew Stan Watts.

I had had a relationship with Stan Watts through my college coach.

They were in the navy together, and they knew each other.

And, they had great respect for one another, and and I had met him.

And we had played actually, we played against that great, team, that great BYU team in Madison Square Garden.

I think, you know, who did they have, Roland Minson and who was who was miss America's brother was, Mel Hutchins.

And that was a great team on the NIT.

But, anyway, so and then after I had coached Niagara, when I was coaching at Niagara, we played we played BYU.

We played in the Marriott Center, and we also played up in Buffalo Yeah.

Which was was wonderful.

You know?

The the LDS people were coming from everywhere to see their team play, to see them lose, by the way.

But that no.

I'm not kidding.

We exchange losses.

Right.

Right.

So did you have as far as your, you had 1% of them Utah, but any interaction with, Mormons before coming to Utah?

No.

Only a knocking on my door and and inviting me things.

I give them a sandwich and send them on that way.

Yeah.

Well, good.

Yeah.

You know, one of the things early in in my career, I went to the, governor, and, I think it was governor Bangerter at the time.

It might not have been it might have been, Matheson.

But, anyway, I said, you know what?

You should use me to like, they do Tally Savalas.

Remember the the ads when Tally Savalas used to be on used to sell Las Vegas?

You say, I'm Telesavelas, and I live in Las Vegas.

This is a great place for families to move and Uh-huh.

Because everybody's afraid to move to to, Las Vegas because of the gambling and stuff like that.

And he used to say, and it's a great place to raise kids and all that.

So I said, you know what?

I should go out and say, I'm Frank Layton.

You all know me coaching the jazz.

Well, I'm from Brooklyn, New York, but my home now is Salt Lake City, Utah, and this is a great place to bring.

And everybody thought that was a great idea as some people, but there's a lot of denial here.

And a lot of people said, what's the problem?

Nobody knows the difference.

Something like that.

So, anyway, that was it.

But no.

No.

I I get along with people.

Yeah.

You know?

And, so, you know, I I find that by going forward and saying, where can I help?

And that's how I think the jazz when we weren't very good, what do we have to sell?

We had to sell service.

We had to sell sell the idea that we were here, that we were gonna make this community better.

We weren't gonna hurt college basketball.

I mean, you know, with the great teams you had here, you know, the Ladel Andersons and the and the, you know, Jack Gardners and those kind of guys coaching here.

So, you know, we, we came in with the idea.

I said, I one of the first things I did, I went to the the school activities, groups and said, look at, what can we do to make sports in Utah better?

And they said, well, you could help us by not playing on Friday nights.

I said, we can do that.

Yeah.

Sure.

We'll we'll help that.

And we put on clinics, coaches clinic, kids clinics.

We started junior jazz.

Oh, yeah.

By the way, the biggest the biggest thing in the whole country Yeah.

Little League.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was like Little League basketball, and we had over a 110,000 kids playing.

A 110,000 I was one of those kids.

In five states.

Yeah.

And in fact, it's a model now for the NBA Yeah.

To use.

And then the idea that I'd go out and speak and meet and, you know, and whether it was, you know, to me, being Irish Catholic Democrat, I know I could get my group and meet in a phone booth.

But you know what?

People stand up and listen.

People are willing to share, and that's what we try to do.

Yeah.

And I I've always believed in that.

I I always felt I could get along with people and try to I I always knew this.

I always knew who the home team was here.

Yeah.

Alright?

And I always knew it was a club I couldn't get into.

So I just I tried to obey the rules, live a good life, and bring up a family here Sure.

And add add to the culture that was already here, and, hopefully, it was, it was in a good way.

Yeah.

And you it has been.

I mean, you've added a lot to You know what?

I think one of the things that's happened is is being honored by the by the, by BYU.

Yeah.

Alright?

The the business society having their dinners, and then I I lit the y Yeah.

At a game one year.

I had Lavelle had me come in and speak to the the team before a game one day.

Last year, just last year, Barbara and I were on it at a BYU basketball game, which they were playing my alma mater at the at the Marriott Center.

And so, you know, we've tried to keep up a relationship.

There was no jealousy.

Yeah.

You know, I always felt there was room for everybody.

There's no bad cities or bad states.

There's only bad teams.

Mhmm.

You know, if you're good, you'll make it.

There's room for everybody.

Yeah.

You know, and I always think of this.

The year 1984, what does that mean to the people that are LDS that have a connection with BYU?

That was that was the national championship.

The national championship football team.

That's right.

1984 was also the first time the Jazz made the playoffs.

All right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and that was a big year for both.

Yeah.

For sure.

There was room for everybody.

Yeah.

And, and so I think if you if you go about it that way, you'll be just fine.

Yeah.

For sure.

Yeah.

So going back to your, career, I mean, as a player, did you are always know you'd end up in coaching?

I mean, was that the No.

No.

No.

You know why?

Because I always saw coaches as kinda belabored.

You know?

They they never seem to be paid enough.

They they always were being you know?

Hell, you win, you're fine, you lose.

You know?

You're famous for a little while.

You know?

I admired coaches, and I knew some of the great ones.

I I'm very fortunate to say that that I considered, Johnny Wooding a close friend, not just a friend.

Really?

Well I knew Vince Lombardi, you know, and then crossing over into different sports.

You know?

Red Red Holzman, was a good friend.

We played for the same high school coach.

I had a wonderful high school coach, mister Drucker.

By the way, I still call him mister Drucker.

You know?

I signed him to a one day contract so he could sit on the bench with the Jazz and Oh, really?

Assistant coach in the NBA per day.

And, mister Gallagher, my my high school co my college coach was a had a wonderful influence on me.

And we always seemed to have room, you know, when we didn't have we didn't we weren't poor when we were kids.

We just didn't have any money.

But we always had spikes and gloves and, you know, whatever we needed Yeah.

To to to progress.

To play.

And so, you know, moving here and and I I don't say this in a corny way.

I think it was there was something spiritual about it.

Really?

I think we came out here for a reason, and we could live anywhere in the world now, my barber and I, but we chose to live here and our children are lived here.

But I really think that we're here because we add a certain balance Yeah.

To this, to this community.

Yeah.

It's been a great balance.

I needed balance for sure.

So when you did come out here, did you feel like you were getting a break?

I mean, this is your first NBA professional head coaching position.

Wasn't sure because I had the worst team in the history of basketball.

Yeah.

I mean, nobody could win win with this, Jazz.

I can't So where do you start with that?

Well, the first coach was was Tom Nusilke.

Mhmm.

And, and he eventually got fired.

He, you know, he was a good coach, a very good coach, but you could nobody could win.

We just didn't have any players.

It took a little time.

And you know what?

You can you can work hard at scouting and and looking at players and but everybody's doing that.

You have to get a little lucky.

Yeah.

You know?

And all of a sudden, you know, certain pieces fell into and I'm not talking about Malone and Stockton.

They're they're supposed to be.

Man.

But it was how about, you know, getting a guy like Bobby Hanson or Ricky Green who had been to mind leagues for five years.

I'd been I'd I'd never really every time he came to the to the NBA, he, he didn't make it.

Mhmm.

But we were a team that was hungry for help, and he turned out to be just right.

Yeah.

He was great.

I thought he was the first great player we we really got.

And, and then Mark Eaton.

Yeah.

You know, who never played in college, never played in high school, you know, play he sat on the bench at UCLA.

He was great in the team picture.

Turned out to be an all star with us.

Yeah.

He You know?

And so and then, Jerry Sloan, who had who had, you know, coached at Chicago and got fired there, came with us and coached his way into the hall of fame.

Yeah.

You know?

And so, yeah, it's you gotta but you gotta get lucky.

You gotta first, you gotta get the opportunity to get it.

And there's only there's only 30 jobs, so you gotta make the most of them.

But there should be service involved.

I really believe that there's a couple of things I think I the Peace Corps.

That was one of our most successful things in selling American standards around the world.

What good, I wonder, is done by the by the missionaries, not just in conversion to the Mormon church or bringing bringing new people into the the the Mormon church, into the LDS church.

But what about how people see them?

These clean-cut youngsters, you know, going around the world, they see these as as healthy American kids trying to do something good.

And it's not, oh, I I knew some some young ladies from BYU.

They were on a mission, and they were they were giving injections, you know, inoculations and wrapping bandages and helping in clinics and stuff around the world.

And that stuff is what we need.

We need to to reinsert ourselves in terms of service.

And I always felt this way, even when I was coaching the pros, that I wanted the players to be better intellectually when they left us than they were when they came with us.

And I think they were.

I think in most cases, they were.

How did you go about doing that or installing?

By instituting certain things that hadn't been done before.

We started a wives' club.

The wives are lonely.

Their husbands are away.

Their husbands are the big stars.

They're married when they're young kids.

And so we started a wives' club and gave them some duties, such as, as, putting on shows, clothing, or what do you call it?

Modeling Fashion shows.

Fashion shows and raising money.

And then, the Christmas tree.

We got into the Christmas tree business and and and we won the award one year.

We had victories all covered with shoes and shirts of the players.

And and then some of the some of the young ladies, we'd ask them in interviews, what were you gonna do before you get married?

Oh, I wanted to be a nurse.

Well, why don't you be a nurse?

I'll give you an example.

Adrienne Danley's wife came.

She says, I wanted to be a lawyer.

Well, why didn't you go to law school?

She went to law school.

She's a lawyer now.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

You know, so in other words, they had dreams that they didn't necessarily have to give them up because they got married.

You know, they could still go on with their lives.

And and so, you know, and and we took care of the kids.

Then we started a chapel service, you know, after these these guys get out of school, away from their families, everything else.

Their mothers, they didn't go to church anymore.

So, you know, we got the the reverend Franz Davis.

Oh, yeah.

Alright.

And we had another, a minister in town by the name of, Jerry Lewis Mhmm.

Of all names, but he was a great guy.

He's died recently.

A wonderful Christian gentleman, and we had, we had services on, once a week, and we invited the wives to come.

We invited the other teams to join us.

Sometimes players were suspicious of why we would do that.

They thought we were softening their teams up, but but sometimes players would come from other teams.

We also gave a bonus to players who finished, their college degrees.

A lot of them quit college early, or they don't finish their degrees before they grad they get out, and they go into the pros.

And there's a lot of satisfaction.

I can remember missus Stanley saying the proudest time in her life wasn't when her son was on the, all star team where he was he was captain of the Olympic team that won a gold medal.

He won the national scoring championship in college.

He won it in the in the NBA.

It was when he walked down the aisle at Notre Dame and got his diploma.

Wow.

That's fantastic.

You know?

Yeah.

She said that was the proudest moment of my life.

And I think as a parent, that's how I would feel, too.

So it sounds like I mean, it's easy, is it, for a coach to just get hyper focused on their players, the wins and losses.

But to look outside of that, I mean, that's where winning is gonna come from is is if you take care of everything.

Happens is if the players feel that you are for them, they will give it everything for you.

You know, mercenaries can win, too.

I mean, let's face it.

Johnny Wooden tells us that good coaches are one who win when they have good players.

Some coaches lose with good players, and they should go in to do something else for a living.

But it isn't just about winning.

I remember one time Larry Miller getting mad at me when I said that some of my greatest games were losses.

I mean, I can remember being at war with with Pat Riley.

Yeah.

And we're playing, you know, maybe the greatest team in the history of basketball, Kareem and Worthy and and, you know, Magic Johnson and stuff.

I mean, who were we playing?

You know?

And we we'd give them everything they they had.

You know?

And that was great.

Even when we lost a great series with them seven seven games.

Yeah.

Barely lost.

After it was over, I said to Pat you know, we were friends from even before, being in in coaching.

He was from Brooklyn originally.

People don't realize it.

And then he lived in the Albany area and then went to Kentucky.

But I said, hey, Pat.

Was that funny?

He says, it sure was.

You know?

I mean, yeah.

Somebody wins, somebody lose.

I can live with that as long as you give it everything you got.

And I wanted our players to leave us with the idea that that we really did love them, and we used to hug.

We had a little a ritual with the jazz players.

We would hug, and we still do it when we see each other and say, what can I do for you today, man?

What can I do for you today?

It isn't always about basketball.

Basketball is a part of it.

And, you know, if you spread that into all walks of life and in everything we do, you know, we try to get it.

We try to get it.

We, you know, we need we patriotism starts like that.

Patriotism starts with a handshake.

Yeah.

And that's what a salute is.

A salute is a handshake, you know, in the army and stuff like that.

It's a it's a hello.

How are you?

And I think, we need more of that.

You know, I I've also realized that just this kind of thing.

How did the jazz have you ever saw my team stand for the Starspano banner?

Baby, you'd think they were at West Point.

Yeah.

And I said, unless any of you guys have a congressional medal of honor, you stand at attention when they play that song and they have the and you honor our country.

Yeah.

Because that's the only thing.

I don't use service you're giving, you know?

So don't don't give me a bunch of baloney, you know?

Yeah.

And I think it was in the little things that you did as a coach that really established that, that unity.

Right?

Well, you know what?

You start with the small things.

We didn't have a lot of rules, for instance.

We had we had simple rules like, be on time.

We can't play without you, so you gotta be here.

Alright?

We wanna do to dress properly, be ready to play.

I had a one time, a visiting player came in.

He said, I heard the jazz that every practice is like a game.

Shirts tucked in, socks pulled up.

I said, hey.

We don't stop paying you because we don't have a game today.

We pay you every day.

And so that's what I expect.

You come to work, you know, just like like a plumber.

He brings his toolbox with him.

You're ready to go to work.

I'm only gonna take a couple hours of your time.

And so, you know, isn't it funny that if we pick the best college coach in the country, I think it would be fair to say most people would say coach k Yeah.

At Duke is the best college coach.

And maybe he isn't, but he certainly is gonna be right up there with all his success.

And then we pick the best coach in in, and the pros, and we pray we'd probably say it's Popovich.

Isn't it funny that they're both products of military institutions?

You know, Popovich graduated from the the Air Force Academy, and, and, of course, coach k went to West Point.

Yeah.

So there's, like, those those roots of leadership.

Yeah.

Leadership.

Discipline.

You can't you can't lead unless you get you have authority.

Authority comes from above.

Okay?

Who were the best lieutenants?

Those who worked and, say, under general MacArthur and general Eisenhower.

That's why so many of their cadre became generals later on.

You know?

So you gotta have you gotta have authority, and, you've gotta have discipline.

Yeah.

And and and a school teacher cannot survive without the the principal and the school board and everybody supporting them.

Otherwise, the parents would eat them alive.

And the parents are the outsiders.

They're the amateurs.

They don't know anything about what's going on unless they've been teachers themselves.

So, yeah, you've gotta have discipline, and you gotta I was very fortunate that all the coaching places I was, I had that kind of authority.

People supported me, and, you know, it, it it helps.

If you don't have it, the players smell it, they realize it, and you don't stand a chance.

You you know, you can start getting your, retirement papers out.

So what did you do if there was a player?

How did you approach it if they weren't really embracing that discipline culture that that you're establishing?

Sit them down.

Get rid of them.

Yeah.

I can't.

I'm not running boys down.

Mhmm.

I don't wanna I don't wanna affect the whole team.

Alright, in order to save one one person.

You know what I mean?

I could make all my all my efforts, you know.

And and I think it's interesting, isn't it, that we see now that players who are making millions of dollars want more, and they're holding out and they're this and that.

You've gotta move on.

Alright?

And you cannot let let one player drag you down.

You know?

And, my idea is that, you're you're only as strong as your weakest link, and, you know, you have somebody who's who's killing your locker room, who's gonna be talking behind your back and everything else.

I'll give you an example.

We had a we had a, you know, throw Bailey, alright, out of the great North Carolina, and played for a very good coach, Jimmy Vavano.

And, you know, we were we were practicing.

We were having preseason down at Dixie College, and we were at the the the first day of practice.

And in those days, unlike now, you know, you have about eighteen, nineteen guys.

You know, some are trying to make the team along with your squad and whatever.

Yeah.

They're working out.

Well, anyway, after the morning session, we were we were, meeting out in the middle of the floor, and I usually kept everybody in front of me.

I learned that in the army.

Don't let people surround you.

But this day, I don't know, somehow some players got behind me.

And, and, all of a sudden, I heard while I was talking, I heard, shut up.

The man's trying to teach us to win.

I turned around, and there's Thoreau Belly.

He's yelling at a couple of rookies.

He said these two rookies, they're talking to each other about where they're gonna go for lunch in between the the the the double sessions.

And he so I said, oh, we're gonna have a good team this year.

Nice.

Yeah.

Because I said he got it.

Yeah.

That leadership was being your leadership is being duplicated.

Everybody because it resonated to all the players, even though he was yelling at two rookies, everyone in the line or, you know, see see you in the weight room up at up at one time, up in the weight room, up at Westminster where we used to practice.

And we had put a weight room in there, and Karl Malone was in there.

Team was working weights and everything.

And a couple of guys got up and they start working.

All of a sudden, they hear, hey.

And it's Karl Malone.

Get back.

You're not done yet.

You'll be done when I'm done.

And the guys go, yes, sir.

And they go back and sit down.

Yeah.

You know, that's that's you know, first of all, those guys can do that because they already are on the team.

They are already established and what have you.

Sometimes, the players will look at a coach who maybe has had losing seasons or is is on the ropes himself, and they will recognize that.

So, you know, you have to have you have to have support, and you've got to have belief in yourself.

I never worried about being fired, and I never and I used to say to players, don't talk to me about coaching because I'm the coach.

I'm the father here.

You don't know anything.

You know?

I know everything, and that's that's that's the end of that.

You know?

Yeah.

I mean, now they have 11 coaches.

I need 11 coaches.

I need to teach a guy to shoot.

I know everything there is to know about shooting.

Yeah.

And I'm not gonna put it into the hands of someone else to teach you how to shoot.

I'm gonna work with you.

Yeah.

So, you know, that's important too.

So you got to have besides a loud mouth, you've gotta have skills yourself.

Yeah.

The players have to believe you're right.

I thought Rich Kelly, a player who went to Stanford, was a was a brilliant student and everything.

And Rich Kelly said, one time when a reporter asked him, what is the difference in other coaches you've had?

Because he had played in a couple of teams.

He says, Frank is an alchemist.

He says he he's able to blend things together.

You've gotta know who's the strongest.

You could Vince Lombardi knew it.

He knew that Bart Starr, who had Bart Starr lost, I think, 10 games in the senior season.

You know?

And he he sometimes Bart Starr had confidence problems.

So he knew he'd put a arm around him.

Now Hornig, on the other hand, you know, was a kicker and a fullback and a tough guy and a, you know, and everything else.

He he needed a kick in the butt.

So you gotta know who to kick in the butt and who to hug.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sometimes some people need a hug.

Others need a need a kick.

And, you know, that that's the way that some some players come in there, and all they think about is failing.

And you have to think about athletes who some their whole lives, they're thinking about, I've gotta make it.

I've gotta make it.

If I don't make it here, what am I gonna do?

You know, we haven't educated them.

I find a lot of fault in in schools who who let let athletes slide.

We have to be tougher on them.

Alright?

That's why I used to give them a bonus to go back and finish school, get your degree.

Makes you one step above a lot of people by doing that.

Mhmm.

You know, that you show that, hey.

I didn't just go to college.

I graduated Yeah.

From college.

And and so, you know, you have to you have to do that.

And and because, you know, the kids are afraid.

I don't care who they are.

Even a guy that's traded or a guy that's picked up in the draft, you know, they always they always worry about, you know, oh, change in teams, the new the new neighborhood I'm going to, the new the new coaching staff, what are they gonna think, and new teammates.

And you always hear players say, this is my team.

So don't tell me that.

There's no team we never and Jerry didn't allow it either.

We never allowed teams to have team meetings.

We're on that team too.

Mhmm.

You know?

And you're not smart enough to hold team meetings, you know, any more than I would have in the army.

Let my my company have a have a meeting without me there.

Yeah.

You know, because I'm going to be out front when we hit the hit the pay deck, you know?

Being very clear on who the leader is.

Well, yes.

I mean, that's why sometimes you had to tell them.

That's why they were bars and stuff.

Stars, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So was it difficult times to know which which, players needed a hug and which ones needed a kick in the pants?

Out pretty soon.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I would very often you know, suddenly I look around the locker room, and I just see somebody read their body language or their face, and then they say, well, what's the problem?

You know?

I had one time, it was Mark Eden, and he was I knew he was down the dumps or something.

He usually wasn't that way.

You know?

In fact, you know, surprising the captains of our team would be in those days.

Thoreau Bailey and Marquis Marquis.

You know?

He was not best player.

He was a great player, but not our our best player.

And he was the captain of the team, and and his leadership qualities now, he goes out and speaks.

He's a he's a does a great job of, leadership conferences and stuff.

But, anyway, he was I said, what's what's wrong, Mark?

He says, well, I I don't know how I can approach this with you, he said.

But next Saturday, he said, my sister's getting married, and I was I was wondering if I could get get a day off.

Well, we had a game that day.

Oh, wow.

So I said, well, I said, Mark, I'll tell you how I feel about that.

You should be at your sister's wedding.

We got a lot of games.

You know?

Yeah.

That's what I felt.

Yeah.

Later on, I had, run-in with, another player who said he needed a day off, and he was gonna go he was gonna pick up his Rolls Royce.

And he said, I need a day off to go pick up my Rolls Royce.

So he said, you let Mark Eaton have off.

I said, Mark Eaton's sister was getting married.

You're gonna pick up a Royals Royce.

I says, you better have your rear end on the bus ready to go.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, you you find out.

I used to do a pretty good job of reading, you know, and and you know what you have to worry about sometimes?

How about the player who knows he's being paid for his production numbers, you know?

And so he has a bad day, but the team wins and he's not happy.

Yeah.

Or you lose And he had a great day and he can't get the smile off his face.

You know, you have to slap that guy.

You have to get after him.

You know, you have to tell him when you lose, we all lose.

When we all win, you win.

We all win.

Yeah.

And it's not.

And also, Jerry knew this very well, is that, winning is not a sometimes thing.

Vince Lombardi said, you know, you don't start.

All of a sudden, we're gonna turn it on day one.

No.

You start it on you start it the first day of practice, and and, we wanna win at every I mean, everything we do.

Yeah.

And, I wanna get the pretty girl.

I wanna get the seat on the bus.

I wanna get the, you know, the extra piece of pie.

I mean, that Yes.

That was my, my demeanor.

And that's how I got brought up, you know?

Yeah.

It sounds like a lot of your players, obviously, there's a one to one relationship and connection there.

What did you approach that in a more formal way where you'd have formal one to one meetings or, you know, the authority figure?

I don't believe in, I thought the players should call me coach.

You know?

I didn't care if they said to the press, Frank did this, or their mother or their father or their wife or whatever it is.

But when addressing me, I earned that position.

I I mean, to me, coach was like doctor.

Mhmm.

You know?

And and and like I said before, my own high school coach, I still call him mister Drucker.

My my college coach, mister Gallagher.

So coach Gallagher.

So, you know, that was about as formal as it ever got on that.

They would always say, coach Layton, can I see you?

Even, you know, someone picks up the phone.

Coach Layton, is that you?

So I but as far as sitting down to talk, I wanted the players to say, I have an open door.

You're welcome to come in, but I'm not I'm not a priest.

I don't wanna hear any crying.

I don't wanna hear any confessions or anything else.

I said, you gotta have something that I can help solve for you.

You know?

Otherwise, you gotta do it yourself because you're now a man.

You're over 21.

And I said, now if you're you're if you're in a jam or you need help or something, then, yes, then we can we can do it.

You know, if you gotta go to your sister's wedding or whatever it is, you you know, you need to borrow something.

I I you know, there's all sorts of ways of helping out.

You know, I had players come to me and say, you know, I'm having trouble with my wife.

We may get divorced, stuff like that.

Then you should talk to to to Reverend, Davis.

Yeah.

You know, whatever, Father O'Connor, whatever it is.

And and I said, they're they're better equipped to handle that.

But I wanted them to feel comfortable with coming into me and and saying, you know, I got a girl pregnant or whatever it is.

You know?

And I'm I'm in a jam here.

Alright.

You know, calm down.

It seems like a jam now, but couple of weeks, it'll it'll be we'll we'll work on it or, you know, also car accidents, whatever it is.

You know?

What the younger you are, sometimes these things seem like great tragedies that are insurmountable.

You know?

And yet, you're the authority figure.

You have the cards in your hand, so you can you can figure it out.

And when you do this, the loyalty bills and the responsibility to you.

I always felt it shouldn't be a one way street, and it shouldn't be about just money.

Anybody can throw money at them, but I'm going to I'm gonna have you feel that you wanna be on this team because you like being part of this family.

And that's what happened that the people wanted to play for the Jazz.

That's why so many of our players were here for so long and played for their whole careers.

Yeah.

Because this was a nice place to play.

It was easy to get to, and we listened to them.

I used to have not only the captains of the team, which was the captains dealt with the players, But I also had an executive committee.

I I had two players who were older players.

For instance, I had Billy Paulson, Rich Kelly, two older veteran players with ten years experience who would come to me with with inner problems.

For instance, we had a player who couldn't read, and I had a book club.

And he used to get the books and he couldn't read and everything.

So so I said, well, let me let me talk to him.

And this is sad because he had a degree from college.

I won't say what college.

They pushed him through.

He couldn't read.

You know?

Well, anyway, I got I got somebody up at the university and a woman, a teacher up there, and she worked with him.

And she said he could read, but he forgot he could read.

He learned to read when he was a kid in Brooklyn, you know?

Oh, wow.

You know, and, an African American kid was poor and everything.

And, and he ended up being able to read.

But he used to carry a book around with him and everything.

And but he he couldn't read it.

But he was trying to fool me because we had a little book club that we used to say on the on the plane.

I used to say to players, I wanna see you guys reading, you know, and just sleeping all the time and everything.

And then we'd meet and discuss Stephen King.

We'd try to pick out books that they'd be excited about and everything, bestsellers.

And, so, anyway, we try to reach out to have them not be embarrassed to come to me with, with even the most, delicate of problems that they had.

It's difficult to say to somebody, I can't read.

Yeah.

And and I'm the one person that can help them.

Yeah.

I said, oh, we can take care of that.

Right.

Reading's easy, I said.

And it's easier when you're older to learn, I said, than you are when you were a kid.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so, you know, believe it or not, I went so far as to have people teach them to write.

Wow.

You know, and a lot of the kids, they had had some printing experience, but they couldn't they couldn't really they couldn't express themselves on paper, let alone, you know.

It became a team effort to help that player.

Spelling, spelling, writing.

I mean, it seems crazy.

But you know what?

Aren't these things that happen in families?

Yeah.

I don't have the answers to everything, but I try to get them to feel good about themselves.

And that went with, for instance, how to dress.

You know?

When the Jazz traveled, I had an experience here.

It was interesting.

When the soccer team first played, they played the Real Madrid was the world championship soccer team, and they had the the great player.

I can't think of his name now.

He married the one of the Beckham.

Right?

Beckham, he married one of the spices or something like that.

Well, anyway, we had a party for him up at the Governor's House, and I was invited to go.

And I was talking to their manager, to their coach, and, everything.

And he, he said to me, I said, you know what?

I was impressed when you guys got off the bus.

I said I was I was impressed at how you all were dressed alike and how dressed up you were and everything.

He said, we are the New York Yankees.

Wow.

He says, that's how we are.

Yeah.

That's how we travel.

Yeah.

And that's how we were.

I didn't want I said, we go to the airport.

You'll go and see some pro teams, and the guys will, you know, be dressed sloppy and stuff like that.

I said, when we go and people say, that's the jazz.

I said, I don't I don't need I don't have to have a shirt and tie on all the time, but you should be dressed.

You should be dressed because you are a professional.

Yeah.

You know?

And, so, you know, as lessons that maybe some people were afraid to tell them to.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So To be honest with them.

As far as those one to one interactions, you know, you expressed how your office is always open for anything else that helped them feel more comfortable coming to you with some difficult, problems.

Yeah.

By paying them respect, I I tried I never find a play of money.

I never took money from people.

To me, that's the biggest disrespect you can ever be, oh, we're gonna fine this guy a thousand dollars or a $100, whatever it is.

Alright?

And the other thing is to treat them treat them like men.

I used to say, I'm gonna treat you like a man until you prove to me you're not.

You know?

I said, I'd do it the old marine way.

You know, guys were late for practice.

What I used to do, I know it was very effective, and you can do this with your children too, is that I didn't punish the guy who was late.

I punished everybody else.

So at the end of practice, when the guy was late for practice, I'd say, stand on the side.

Everybody else on the lines would run suicides and keep running the suicides.

Now he he was the one that was late, and he's not running them.

Yeah.

But the team is because in reality, he's punishing the team.

Yeah.

Doesn't wanna let the team down.

Yeah.

And see, he so, anyway, they learn.

And so what then that's taken care of in the locker room.

The players will say, hey.

Never be late again.

Yeah.

I'm not running lines for you, man.

You know?

And, you know, I always try to say, hey, I'll give you another chance, but don't wear my patience out because like I said before, this isn't Boys Town.

And we're not trying to save you one one one person at a time.

Yeah.

But, yeah, I think I think treating the players with respect and listening to their listening to them sometimes is just enough.

And and trying to teach them to don't be afraid to come in and share, and whatever it is isn't gonna affect your standard on the team.

Yeah.

I said, you know, I'm not gonna put up with certain things.

You know?

For instance, I say, when you take drugs, I will get all you all the help in the world, but I'm not gonna have you on my team.

Not while you're using drugs.

Not now.

You know?

We knew for years, players were using steroids.

It was new.

All of a sudden in baseball, they're saying, oh, these guys are hitting homers.

Well, weren't you a little suspicious when you saw the guy over one summer come back twenty five pounds bigger and stronger and muscles and everything else?

So what I tried to do was, was, treat them with respect unless they abuse that.

And abuse would be by, like I say, you know, drug usage or continuing drug usage.

John's John, what's his name?

Up here.

John drew Drew.

You know?

I mean, we gave him many, many chances and and paid paid for his rehabilitation stuff, but he continued to let us down, and we had to let him go.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So anything else as we wrap up?

Any other leadership principle or coaching coaching philosophy that was really a I think that the players will read whether you like your job or not.

You know, I I, you know, when I measure, I think I mentioned before that Johnny Wooden said a good coach is one who who wins when he has good players.

Nobody can win with bad players.

Alright?

The the UB Browns of the world and stuff will make them a little better, the Pat Riley's, but, but, otherwise, you gotta have good players.

Alright?

But I think in leadership and in coaching, the players will read whether you enjoy it or not, and you've gotta be very, very careful.

I always say, would I want my son or daughter to play for this coach?

Would I trust them?

Alright?

I say this all the time.

Football.

I love football.

I think football is great.

I think it's it's great training for our kids.

It's more lessons are learned on the football field as a classroom than than in the classrooms themselves.

You find out who you are.

You learn fear.

You learn you know, it's like the, the players waiting for a game.

They're worried.

They're scared.

They're this.

But then whenever when the whistle blows and the kickoff, they they get out there and they play or they don't play, whatever it is.

And so, you know, I think it's it's important to say that you're not gonna be dangerous.

I say to a lot of parents, when you let your son, play football, make sure you know who the coach is.

You don't want some nasty guy that you know?

I remember playing football my day, and one of our punishments is they didn't give us water.

What the you know?

I mean, are you crazy?

You know?

I mean, we coulda killed us.

Yeah.

Practicing in the heat and, oh, yeah.

You know?

Hey.

You guys aren't gonna have a drink.

You I think, so, you know and then when I got in the army, I found it was the opposite way.

We made guys drink that water.

We didn't wanna lose them.

So, yeah, so you have to be careful that the welfare, the health, the mental the mental well-being of the player is is at the utmost.

Yeah.

And the players will read that.

The people around them will read that.

And then the final analysis, you know, maybe you won't you won't be in the next Popovich or the next Johnny Wooden or whatever it is.

But you gotta when you get out of it, you gotta the players will read this too.

Do you enjoy this?

Do you have fun?

A little trick I used, and I think it was good.

I thought always leave them laughing.

And you're good at that.

I used to I used to always have a joke at the end of practice, and I used to say, if anybody can top my jokes, you anybody come in.

So the players start to come in with jokes and they would tell joke at the end of practice.

And I would always look up a joke and have a little joke at the end of practice too so that when we left practice, we were all you know, they were all hitting each other and high fiving.

Yeah.

That was a good one.

You know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Delete.

I think it's good to leave practice, to leave work every day on a bright note.

Don't leave you know, my father worked on the docks, and he worked on he he, he was a longshoreman, you know, and he carried stuff on his back and onto the ships and everything.

That's what he did.

Dumb Irishman.

That's what they did with the Irishmen when they came from Ireland.

They put him to work in there as they did other groups of people too.

And it was hard work, and it was tough work and everything else.

So he always say, I gotta go back to this job.

You know?

I hate my job.

I said, you gotta go through life hating your job.

You know?

You should love your job.

And the players will read that.

They knew I loved coaching.

They knew I liked coaching.

I and and I had to have them in order to make it work.

Yeah.

So they were just part of it.

And a lot of times people ask me, do you miss coaching?

Alright?

I've been out of coaching for a lot of years now.

I got out of coaching in order to be with my family.

I thought I had taken enough away from them.

You know?

I had my son who played in college, who played in high school, and was a, captain of his college team.

I saw two games in his whole life.

Oh, wow.

Two games.

This isn't just rehearsal.

We don't go through this thing.

We don't get a chance to do it over again.

That was Scotty, so I hired him to come with me and coach.

And people said, oh, is he qualified?

And I was I I said, I really don't care.

I'm married to his mother.

That's all.

You know?

But, you know, the thing that, yeah, you gotta you gotta like your job.

But when people ask me, do I miss coaching?

I said, no.

I miss playing.

You know?

I was thinking about this last night, about the game today, which I can't wait for.

Yeah.

And I was saying, gosh.

If I could only be young again, for what reason?

To to to just play one more time.

Yeah.

If I I mean, and and I say that to the players.

You know?

Sometimes, you know, the coaches will have me to speak to their teams.

You know?

Gary Anderson does every year.

He's back at Utah State.

And, I always say to them, hey.

What you're gonna do this afternoon when you go out in the real world, General Motors don't have a team.

Yeah.

You know?

So you you enjoy it because you this is one time only.

Yeah.

What these guys are gonna do tonight, that's it.

Yep.

You know?

Yep.

And, so, you know, you got so I miss that.

I really do.

I miss I played football, baseball, basketball.

I played basketball and baseball in college, and I really miss that, you know, thing.

So what do you do instead?

Well, we need umpires.

Umpirants, great.

And then, you know, coaching is is a wonderful profession, and it's competition.

And, some of my great friends, you know, came from the coaching ranks.

Yeah.

And, I just got an award, in fact, from the coaches association, which was was wonderful because when I saw the list of guys who were on the committee, boy, I I I teared up.

Yeah.

And it's I said, gee, I didn't think they liked me.

But, yeah, it's it should be fun.

Yeah.

It all should be fun.

And then when it isn't fun, you got to get I saw Andrew Luck the other day.

He said it wasn't fun anymore.

Yeah.

So he quit.

That's right.

Because that's when you get hurt.

Yeah, for sure.

So, is, you'll have opportunity in the next week or two to speak at the BYU Management Society, the moral and ethical Well, sooner or later, everybody gets to speak to them.

Yeah.

You know?

You you're at the bottom of the list.

It's my fee.

Yeah.

They like my fee.

It's nothing.

I get another green jello.

Nice.

That's how they do it.

You know?

Well, it's gonna be I look forward to that opportunity.

You know what it is?

I hear you.

It's a special group.

All right.

I say this because it's young, energetic, bright young men who are giving of themselves to help others.

Next week, I'm going also to the Bishop's dinner.

I, you know, I'm I go, but I love it.

Yeah.

I love it.

And and it's good for me and it's good for my family.

We found home.

Yeah.

And that's great.

And that segues my last question is you alluded earlier that coming to Salt Lake, there's some spiritual aspect to it.

And now looking back on it, how's how how have you your spirit?

All right.

There's a couple of things happening.

I say a spiritual aspect to it.

I say, I wonder if I was sent.

Alright?

That I came here and added a balance to this community that maybe they didn't have before.

You know, if you look around, we have had some, you know, wonderful wonderful leaders and other faiths.

Yeah.

I mentioned Franz Davis of the, the Baptist Church here, you know, with the African American community.

And there's so many people that, do do certain things like that have made great impacts on the community and have been rewarded for it by the community.

But one of the things that happens is when you come to a place like this, which is obviously a religious community and religion plays a big has a big impact on everything we do and everywhere we go and everything we say and do, But it made me a better Catholic.

Mhmm.

It made me more aware of my religion and my responsibility.

You know, I'm impressed with the commitment and and the camaraderie and the and the family aspects and the all of the things, you know, whether it's through sports or BYU.

You know?

There's so many things that that make me think all the time about my religion and my responsibility to being a Catholic.

And I think that's good, by the way.

I don't think everybody should be Catholic.

I don't think everybody should be LDS.

I don't think everybody should be Muslim.

But I think that everybody should have the same standards and the same way of doing things.

When people talk about BYU, for instance, and the honor code I went to a school like that.

Niagara University is a Catholic university, and we had all sorts of rules and regulations and what have you.

And it will always be in debated as, right and wrong and everything else.

Well, it didn't hurt this guy.

It gave me a stand up I wish to live by.

And I think one of the great things is is, that that the, LDS church does is the, the the missionary thing.

I always think about this.

Whenever I see a guy who's in a there's two two people.

If anybody goes to Notre Dame and you meet him and you talk to them, within ten minutes, they will tell you they went to Notre Dame.

I don't care what it is.

Alright?

They will say, oh, by the way, along the way, I went to Notre Dame.

You know that, Don't They're so proud, and that's so important to them and everything else.

I think it's, it's, it's true of, people who are, in the LDS journey to say, where'd you go on your mission?

I had two fellows meeting.

You know, where'd you go on your mission?

I went here in Brazil.

This time.

And and it it that's a wonderful thing.

And you do the same thing with marines, don't you?

A guy's a marine.

He's a marine for life.

If he doesn't have it tattooed on his forehead, he has it somewhere along the line.

He's gonna let you know he was in the marine.

He's proud that he was able to do it, and and and he served.

And I think that goes well with the missionary spirit.

I think you you become a missionary as you learn you're teaching the religion, but you're getting you're learning.

Every time you teach, you learn.

You know?

Leadership is not, by the way, I'll add this to it.

It's not born.

You're not born to be a leader any more than you're born to be a dentist.

You know, I don't wanna have my teeth worked on a guy that was as a born dentist.

I wanna I wanna have a guy work on my teeth who has worked hard at it.

Yeah.

But leadership can be taught.

Leadership can be shown by example.

You know?

I had a great I I mentioned my father.

You know?

Sixth grade education.

You know?

Immigrant comes over to to works hard on the docs all his life and everything.

But what an example he was and his leadership qualities, by his sacrifices, you know, that when the time came to when the bugle blew, we went.

We didn't question it.

That concludes my interview with coach Frank Layden.

I hope you, appreciated that interview as much as I did.

You know, I get people from time to time that tell me, yeah, you're a pretty good interviewer.

And then I interview somebody like coach Layden and I have not one chance of controlling that interview as we go but, nonetheless, he's so fun to listen to.

I really appreciated it.

Now, as you can see, there's a lot of principles here that I felt like really applied to our experience as Latter day Saint leaders.

I'll just run through the ones that stood out to me, the the main leadership principles that he talked about.

I just wanna, give you my perspective and maybe give you a deeper opportunity to to, ponder over these principles.

First one that jumped out is always involve service in your leadership.

And I'd love this, And it might seem like an assumption to make that if you're an elders quorum president, really study president, well, of course, we're going to involve service in our leadership.

But I think you can be there's always ways to be maybe more intentional and realize and and or see that service as, you know, we're coming together as a unit to serve and make the world a better place.

And in that process of doing that, we're going to be more unified.

We're gonna there's gonna be deeper friendships.

There's gonna be more of a community in our organization.

So I love that.

And the next one that stood out is help them be better intellectually.

I love this concept, especially in, you know, coaching the NBA.

You would think that while we're here, we gotta win championships.

We gotta get some some w's on on the on the board, you know, and and march forward with, creating success here.

But really creating an organization that's not just about one thing.

Right?

That we're not just here for wins or we're not just here to bring people under Christ, which is incredibly important.

Right?

We're also here because we wanna create maybe a quorum where every time you leave our core meeting or our lease site every week or our ward and sacrament meeting, you're leaving deeply impacted intellectually.

Right?

And more challenged intellectually.

And I think that's a that such a rich principle that can impact any organization.

And, obviously, the the one that comes up a lot is show you really do love them.

And I saw that in many examples that coach Layton shared.

And how are you I mean, think about the examples.

You know, they talked about this simple ritual they have of hugging each other and saying, how can I help you today?

Right?

Like, what are some various rituals or routines that you can implement in your service or in your quorum routines and schedule that is going to give you an opportunity as a leader, but give everybody an opportunity one to one to show that you love each other.

Right?

And they really care deeply about each other, and it's not just, well, I'm assigned to this award, and so that's why I'm here.

Right?

Make your authority known and promote discipline was another principle that stood out.

And, obviously, you know, coaching an NBA basketball team or just coaching in generals, I think, is a little bit different than, you know, running an elders quorum or or at least society where, you know, I wouldn't necessarily recommend that, you know, you're you're screaming at people or telling them, you know, to get in line or or really push discipline like you're in the the army.

But I think there's some things that that you could you could, implement that could really stimulate that discipline and stimulate, the the or recognize the authority, the keys that are present and the role of those keys.

Right?

That or that authority in the room.

And so that'd be an interesting discussion, I I would say, for a presidency to have is to discuss, you know, how can we make our authority, more known?

And, obviously, it's not your authority.

It's God's authority.

How can we make priesthood keys more more present, more obvious in the room and and turn to those and and really create purpose for those rather than just on paper.

Yeah.

You're the elders' comp president.

Yeah.

You have keys.

Right?

Next one is, is your leadership influence being duplicated?

I love the story with Thoreau Bailey, right, where they were coaching and Thoreau stopped everybody and said, hey.

He's teaching us how to win.

Right?

And so this is a good sign of of healthy leadership is when there are organic leaders that just start cropping up in the quorum or in the group, in the organization that step forward and lead even though they haven't been assigned to lead or even if they're not a counselor or a presidency member.

They're still they still step up and say, you know, we're doing something special here.

And, that's maybe another discussion to have is how can we duplicate our leadership influence?

Next one is know when to give a hug and when to give a kick.

I'm on to these were some rich stories, that that there are individuals where you, again, is not that you're go to their home and, you know, cuss them out for for not coming to church or these things.

But, you know, some people, they just need some extra love, and other people, they need you to go to their home and challenge them and say brother jones we expect you to be part of our core we need you here all right we we need you to renew that temple recommend we need you to engage in our ward in the gospel because we need you.

Right?

And so I think there's various ways of of doing that, you know, giving them a kick in the pants, spiritually speaking without offending or coming across too too strong.

But nonetheless, a great principle.

Next one is just how he stimulated one to one relationships and really made that, you know, his open door policy.

But, and I think it's so much more than just saying, hey.

I have an open door policy.

But being a leader that's approachable.

How are you approachable?

Obviously, most leaders in the church or Latter day Saint leaders don't have an official office.

Right?

That with a door that people can walk into.

And so I think it's up to you to determine when are your open office hours or if someone does wanna talk to you, how would they go about that?

And do they know how to go about that?

Right?

I think as getting an appoint with a bishop is fairly obvious with an executive secretary and so forth.

But what about with with a relief site president?

What if they really want to come to you with a concern or a trial that they're having in life?

How would they go about that?

Because it's probably difficult to wait around till the end of relief society and catch you as you're leaving or to show up your house.

So having an implementing a system there as far as one to one relationships would be would I think would be helpful.

Next principle is help them want to be a part of the team.

I mean, this is so crucial.

How many individuals in your quorum and your relief site and your ward really want to be there?

And how many are there just because, well, I know it should be.

You know, I gotta take the sacrament or but really to create an organization of of them really wanting to be there.

And that may be just taking the the step of asking them, why on earth do you want to be here?

I mean, I get the whole, you know, ordinance thing.

I get the the tradition of it.

But if all that was taken away, why would you want to be here among us and be a part of this group?

Appearance creates professionalism, and professionalism creates culture.

I love this and this goes back to, you know, the I think the Yankees, the New York Yankees, have been doing this for years and years of just creating a professional atmosphere.

Right?

And now, you know, there's an eternal debate about white shirts and things.

But I remember as a bishop, I would ask my my bishopric counselors.

I said, you know, it's not in the handbook, but I would ask that you, every time you're on a bishopric business, that you're acting in that function, that you have a a nice looking suit on and that you're you're doing that right now.

Obviously, there's service activities or just dropping on somebody.

But as far as Sunday to Sunday, when we're acting in our official capacity, I want the visual image of unity, not just, in our actions, but visually.

And and I think there's, you know, a lot of people, especially nowadays, it's easy to grumble about that sort of stuff.

You know?

There's lots of discussion about the honor code at at Brigham Young University and and appearance at church and these things.

And and, of course, you know, those are important discussions to have.

But in leadership, I really feel like it's important to take a step of how are we gonna look professional and take it to that level so that so that the the authority that we represent is is respected in that manner.

So something to to think about, I think, as far as appearance, like, how can you impact the appearance of maybe your presidency or the appearance of your quorum that is, isn't gonna feel like, just one more thing, but it's gonna actually stimulate unity among those that attend.

Another fantastic principle, that coach Layden shared.

Those you lead will read if you like your role or not.

I thought this was awesome because so many times in the church I mean, and especially a a bishop, a stake presidency.

I mean, nine years.

I mean, you you're in these callings for a long time.

And sometimes those last few years, you're just sort of ready, right, to to move on to something else.

And so if people can perceive, if you're not enjoying that that calling and I have enjoyed some callings before, especially some leadership callings that I've had.

And I feel like people really felt that.

Like, when I'm acting in that capacity, they could tell I was enjoying that experience.

And if you enjoy that experience, they are more, likely to want to be a part of that experience and be involved and be in that group.

So that's another thing to consider.

Do you like your calling?

And if you don't, like, what can you do to either stimulate and find that energy again or maybe have a conversation with, your bishop or someone and say, man, I'm really struggling with this.

Is there something else?

Or what can we do to to stimulate some of that enjoyment in your calling?

Because you really do need to enjoy your calling.

And then lastly, I put, always leave them laughing and on a positive note.

And this is, I think, great counsel for any core meeting, really exciting meeting.

Of course, it's natural to sort of end the meeting on the with the, you know, testimony.

Right?

The spiritual experience where your voice lowers and you get very sincere.

And, you know, I just I just love this gospel.

Right?

Like and that's fine.

There's a time and a place for that.

But, also, especially in an elders' courtroom, I would much rather as when a group of men to leave that meeting laughing or leave it on a note that's super positive and that I can that, leaves me smiling as I walk out of that courtroom.

Right?

So I think that's a great principle.

Anyways, those are just the the main principles I took away from it.

I hope, I'd love to hear maybe principles that you have, that captured your attention in this interview.

You can go to leadingsaints.org.

And right on the interview of this with coach Layden, you can leave a comment, and there you can, share your perspective on things.

And that concludes this throwback episode of the Leading Saints podcast.

Quick reminder, go watch Joseph Grenny's presentation on helping loved ones overcome addiction by going to leadingsaints.org/fourteen.

It came as a result of the position of leadership which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

When the declaration was made concerning the only true and living Church upon the face of the earth, We were immediately put in a position of loneliness, the loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away, and to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.