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Straight down the Middle of Trumps Guy, try.

To get inside the game from every end goal.

It's Rugby Direct with Elliott Smith and Liam Napier, powered by News Talks EDB.

Welcome into Rugby Direct power by Access Solutions, celebrating twenty five years in business.

Elliott Smith with me, Liam Napier.

We are back.

I had resolved not to do any podcast in January, and this is the third we are doing on Rugby Direct, a quasi emergency podcast.

Once again, back in front of each other in the same room for the first time in twenty twenty six.

Greetings Liam, it has been one heck of an off season.

It has great to see Elliott of most complexion, a little bit of a tad coming through.

I've been in Melbourne last week.

He's a bit of a tanner.

Looking good.

Thanks.

Yeah, how's your back in?

Yeah, it's improving, it's improving.

Out of sight, how was your camping holiday?

Some rudely interrupted by various things.

Yeah, I'll send the check to Zilla Rugby interrupting that that excursion.

Yes, the phone was running hot.

But it was well, let's touch on that first and foremost, because we haven't spoken to you about your reaction to Scott Robertson leaving his post sacked as All Blacks coach.

I mean, it's coming on two weeks almost now, but you were the first person to break the story around the review and the nature of the feedback that was being given to Scott Robertson and the fact that there had to be some decisions made.

We'll less than twenty four hours later there was a big decision made and Scott Robinson was out as the All Blacks coach.

What was your reaction as that popped up and you're in box and Wayhi.

Yeah, things move quickly, didn't they.

I guess if you go back to the back end of last year, it was very evident, certainly from what I was hearing about discontent within that camp, and that came through loud and clear in the review from I think it's sixteen to twenty players that were interviewed by that panel, and look, i'd heard at the back end of last year it was fifty to fifty where the razor would keep his job.

I probably at that point expected him to be given more time, and that's I think the emergency pod we did.

We touched on maybe there would be changes to the assistance because that's the route that we'd seen explored previously with Ian Foster.

And then we had the breaking news from Rory in the Irish Independence that Razor was gone, and I think there was widespread surprise.

First and foremost, that's such a decision, such a decisive decision had been taken, and now they're on the hunt for a new coach.

I guess if we touch on just the decision first and foremost, do you think it's the right one?

I think it probably is.

I think they had to make a decision given what you're presented in your column, given what we had observed on that end of year tour, and given the strides that hadn't been made in this all Black team over the last two years.

You know, David Kirk used the word trajectory a lot in that media conference when he announced it, and it's hard to disagree with him.

You couldn't see the trajectory that they were on a path forward to win the Rugby World Cup twenty twenty seven, and with the Rugby's Greatest Rivalry Tour looming this year.

They have not a lot of runway to get things right and it felt like I don't know how much the Rugby Wild Cup drawer played in it as well the fact that they might land a quarter final against South Africa, but it just felt like they had to make a decisive decision and with this would have come under previous New Zealand rugby management.

I don't know, but I think it's hard to mount the case for Scott Robertson to have stuck in the job.

You know, you'd have to be pretty ardent, you know, long time backer of Scott Robertson, and he's got a few don't get me wrong, But I think they ultimately probably have made the right call.

Now you've left the eyepatch at home, so they haven't I.

Have indeed now whether the right call has be made, you know, will only be told in you know, the fullness of time, by the time we get through this year and in twenty twenty seven.

But on the surface of it, I actually don't mind the call from New Zealand Rugby to go this actually isn't good enough.

The all Black ra brand that are breaking in the dollars we need, but also they need to be winning it a certain percentage, so I don't mind the ruthless call of it.

Yeah, there's been a lot made of player power, player revolts, whatever you want to term it, but I think it's largely has come to pass that Razor lost the dressing room and New Zealan Rugby clearly felt like he wasn't going to get it back, and that's subtle.

Tweaks, whether they be assistants or mediation or whatever it might have been, could have ended that, and that's why they arrived at this resolution.

I think it is probably the right call, but it's now cumbersome on them to come up with something better, isn't it.

And the dominoes are really falling.

Tony Brown is committed to the spring Box, to the World Cup, Joe Schmidt is committed to the Wallabies, and so we're at a situation really Verncotta is going to Australia.

I don't think he would necessarily would have ever been the head coach, but I think he was probably in the discussions to be part of a wider coaching team maybe, And so you're pretty much down to a two horse race.

Dave Rennie and Jamie Joseph.

I think one of the other big points about this is it's not just on field performance and the trajectory you mentioned and the lack of improvements and the worries about what's to come, but I think fundamentally the culture within that team wasn't good.

Yeah, And whether that be from an inclusive nature, whether that be communication, trust, there was a real breakdown in relationships.

Yeah.

There was similar things that I've heard, and I think we touched on it when we did the emergency pot a couple of weeks back with you that there had been in previous regimes a lot of player empowerment to drive a lot of the game plan basically was handed off round about Thursday to the team, right, the coaches had done their job.

Now it's the players to lead us through from Thursday through to the final whistle on Saturday night, And it felt like that had been removed in this regime.

You know, obviously coaches are empowered to run things the way they want, but it felt like what coaches and players we used to from the previous environment hadn't been carried over, and it felt like the players were feeling that like they didn't have a say in things that they felt that they should have.

Yeah, the player power for one of a better term is not anything new in a modern sporting world.

The players were instrumental in the All Blacks and En Foster retaining his posts through to the twenty twenty three World Cup.

It's just this was a very different vibe that the complete opposite.

Right.

They a large number of senior players didn't want to play for Razor effectively and where they went into bat massively for Ian Foster and so one had a positive effect on the head coach and one didn't.

So and that's two years apart.

So that's player involvements.

Player influence is nothing new.

That that wasn't the sole reason for Raiser being pushed out, but I think it was certainly the major driving factor, alongside the on field performance.

If they'd gone through the last two years and maybe dropped one or two games combined or whatever it might be, and there was elements of players being unhappy, they probably would have stuck with him.

But you can bind those two things, and I suspect they had a recipe to go, we've got to change something here in this All Blacks environment and it was interesting.

Rory o'connorho you touched on before.

He has done some exceptional work on the story out of Ireland, and he did a piece yesterday around how it unfolded, and it suggested that Scott Robertson was surprised by the fact that there been some negative feedback that Artie Savia was one of the key people pushing back against the Scott Robertson regime.

I guess Artie's role in all this he has been stuck up as a figurehead of this.

David was quick to play it down at the media conference when it happened.

But where does this leave you know?

I guess Artie save going forward in the All Black's environment, given there'll be talks as you reported that maybe you wouldn't come back to the All Blacks.

Yeah, well, Rory reported, which is what I've heard as well, that Artie was unhappy on that Northern touring and considered leaving.

And I had heard that Lard he had explored the possibility of staying with Kobe, of going to Europe potentially and as Rory reporter, which I had heard as well, that he was potentially looking at R three sixty.

So I think there was a cloud over his All Black future with Razor as coach New Zealand Rugby.

Adamant that he is contracted to twenty twenty seven and that he was always returning home, but I'm one hundred percent certain that he played a role, that he was not alone, that a number of senior players are unhappy, and my original report before Razor was pushed out, I also mentioned one senior Blues player declined an invitation to go from the All Blacks fifteen to the All Blacks in their final week in Cardiff, and so that speaks to the wider breakdown in relationships of other players as well.

Can you recall another time recent history or all black history when an All Black is said no thanks to joining the All Blacks.

I mean, Bradthorne's probably the closest example, and that was for different reasons back in what the early two thousand, tw thousand and one, maybe off the top of my head, I mean it's been a generation since something like that's happened.

That was really just a minor sort of thing.

I'm sure there were instances, and you know, the pre professional era of things like this, and the coaching role was certainly a lot different in those days.

But I think, yeah, it's been painted as player power in some quarters.

I don't know that it's necessarily true.

It was not a player of volt necessarily.

This was a wide open review.

The questions that they were asked were fairly wide in terms of the they were narrow focused in terms of trying to find a certain answer.

And this is what it's come back with.

It was one or two players, they would have been able to, I'm sure, mediate that out and figure out a way forward.

When you've got you know, a whole lot of players in one environment, it paints an unhappy culture and something needed to be done.

And to David Kirk he said it wasn't the captain's call, but I'm sure he very much had a big influence that this is the decision that had to be made.

Oh massively, and particularly given the state that a state of flux that New Zealand Rugby is in, without a permanent CEO, without a chief commercial officer, without with their high performance manager leaving as well.

So Kirk is effectively running the show, just as Hamish mcclennan did across the Ditch in Australia and Yeah, the New Zealand Rugby board would have had to sign off and had final say on any of these decisions, but I think Kirk is fully carrying the can and as mentioned before, it's now on him and New Zealand Rugby to come up with a more complete, compelling package as an all black coaching team.

The other the other point, which hasn't really been touched on a lot, is this is going to cost New Zealand Rugby.

I think my understanding is as part of the severance agreement, raised signed a non disclosure agreement, so I can't speak about it, not just him, but others as well, and I think they paid him out at least a year salary.

And it also raises questions about his assistants.

And we know that whoever comes in as head coach, we'll be able to decide their assistance.

But for me right now, I think Jason Ryan I would retain him.

If Jamie Joseph comes in.

I think Scott Hansen would be potentially likely to stay on.

He worked with him in Japan.

Not sure how that would go down with some of the players, but I think that the assistants would be very nervous right now Brent Hall.

I think Bryn Hall Brent Evans did a great job with the line out this year, but a few of those assistant coaches right now that you're very nervous about your coaching future.

Absolutely, and Steve Lancaster said yes.

And in the media conference's business as usually.

I suppose it has to be because they've got to communicate with super rugby clubs around and various things and how much minutes players can have in preseason and what they're looking for.

But people are gone on why haven't they got rid of the assistants as well.

We'll just take a step back for a second and go what if the new coach comes in and goes, yep, I'll have those two, but I don't want those too.

If you got rid of them all in one fell sweep when Razor lyft, you're basically paying out these people and then bringing them back in.

So this is the only way that New Zealand Rugby could have gone about it.

But I think it's squeaky bum time for those assistants because they're in a state of flux, not knowing if they'll be employed in a couple of months time.

Do you if you're an assistant.

Do you go and try and get on one of the tickets?

Now, do you call up one of the prospective coaches and plead your case and put your case forward.

I don't know how this all works, but it's going to be fascinating to see how that parts unfolds, isn't it?

It is all right, let's get into it then.

So Jamie Joseph or Dave Rennie, as far as I'm concerned, those are the That is pretty much it.

Vin quote.

It might have been a dark horse, but he's going to the Reds, which will touch on again in a minute.

But I think those are the only two options.

I mean, there are others that are eligible under the criteria.

You're Warren Gatlands of.

The World, Yeah, Karen Crowley, Wayne p.

Vack, Robbie Deans essentially, Tana Pat Lamb.

Made see Antony and Foster.

Yeah.

But when you boil it down, I think at this point, no one is sure whether Dave Rennie is going to definitely apply, And a point I'm going to make he is if he doesn't want the all Blacks job, I think he could pretty much walk into the Blues.

But let's just say they both apply.

Who you given the job to, I.

Think I'm going to give it to Dave Rennie.

I think Rennie has the better body of work.

He was highly regarded by the Wallabies in terms of what he was delivering there.

There were a number of players unhappy when he was kicked out for Sirihdi Jones a couple of years ago.

And I think you look at what you know.

It's hard to judge Japan's rugby, but he's doing well with Koba over there.

Ardie Savia is currently playing with Kobe and he's well respected for what he did with the Chiefs alongside Wayne Smith in twenty twelve to twenty thirteen and transform that franchise into winners.

Now Super Rugby as we're seeing, it's not the be all at indoor.

But I think he's coached in different environments.

He coached with Glasgow, he coached, he's got internationally's top fourteen.

I think he's got that experience.

Dave Rennie to come and work with the All Blacks, I think he'd be a very very astute head coach.

I think Jamie Joseph has some positives, but I and you look at what he did with Japan, I would throw out probably the last two years of what he did there.

Japan was under COVID restrictions, way behind the rest of the world for far too long.

Well depends on how you view it in Japan, but they were behind, you know, the COVID curtain for considerable amount of time and didn't come out of that too long.

They left their World Cup planning to l I think nine had seventeen tests between the twenty nineteen World Cup ending of the twenty twenty three World Cup, so they didn't have a lot of preparation.

But I think he did well with Japan.

But I think I'd still go Dave Rennie for his body of work.

What say you, yep?

I agree for a number of reasons, and one of them is when Dave Rennie came into the Chiefs, he completely cleaned out that roster, took over from n Foster, brought him the likes of Aaron Cruden from one or two and a number of others, and brought that team together in a year alongside Wayne Smith and Tom Coventry and others, and built a culture, took them back to their multi roots, had a real clear identity.

He knows how to bring teams together.

He's got great relationships with a number of coaches and players, so Dave Rennie would be my preference.

The other thing I think about Jamie Joseph two points one Tony Brown not being available as a massive hit.

Whenever there's been great success, it's been with Tony by his side, and I think he's a real foil, one of the best attacking coaches in world rugby.

I also think Tony Brown post twenty twenty seven would work with anyone, not just Jamie because he's always a line with Jamie Joseph public now yeah, yeah, but he I think he would work with anyone.

I've also heard a few things which I think he's on rugby aware of, about Jamie and his coaching style and running through a number of different assistant coaches.

When you look at Kendrick Lynn leaving and going to Argentina, Tom Donnelly going to the Wallabies, Dave Dylan, There's been a number of others, So maybe that speaks to an abrasive style and I think Jamie's a very strong personality.

Maybe that's what the All Blacks need.

Now, how many assistant coaches have the All Blacks coaches run through in the last few years exactly.

I also did perk my interests.

This quote from Victor Mattfield, who was involved with Japan.

He said, one thing I must say from the Japanese players, they weren't too happy with Jamie Joseph at the end.

Why that is it sounded like he was very strict and very set in his ways.

But he understands in his own culture he played, he looks like a rugby man.

So it will be interesting.

And I think from what I've heard about Jamie coming back to the High and as years yet, he's still quite old school in his approach to training.

You know, expects players to go through the ringer, you know, really works players hard.

Maybe that's what the All Blacks need.

Maybe they do need a bit of a shake up, a real strong man at the helm.

But I think there are potential red flags.

There is, of course, no guarantee that Davenny applies for this gig.

He's off contract with Kobe.

They could finish as in May.

Yeah, they could offer him a wheelbarrow full of cash.

Wayne Smith Stane back to Kobe as well.

All right, that's where you're going.

Yeah, Okay, he may not put his head in the ring, in which case he may put his head and hope he does, but he may not, in which case you're probably only left with Jammie Joseph.

How comfortab would you be with that?

And it would it mean you Jean had done the right thing in acting Scott Robertson.

If they were left with a one horse.

Race, I think it's a floored plus a flawed process.

If you have the All Blacks coaching job and only one person applying, I don't think that would be true.

But look, we've already had some big names Schmidt one of them rule himself out.

In the ideal world, you have all the best candidates available.

Should they have opened it up to overseas applicants.

I wouldn't mind seeing a foreign assistant, But I'm still at the point where I want a New Zealander coaching the All Blacks's head coach.

But is that high performance?

That's my question to you.

They talk about wanting to, you know, the All Blacks a strong high performance brand if the best coach available is an overseas coach.

When I think about overseas coaches that I would want involved, I'm thinking Jacques Nebana, Ronan O'Gara potentially, but he's got some real volatility around his sideline behavior and.

Lar Rochelle and not playing that well at the moment towards referees.

Those guys I would really think would add a lot of value in a coaching team.

But I still think my personal preference it might be outdated, but I do agree that it should be in Hissigner at the stage.

Yeah.

I mean, there's not like the huge amount of candidates from overseas that you'd go, yep, we'll have him.

You know, Russi Erasmus isn't going to leave the spring books to go coach to the All Blacks, is he?

And I can see I think a foreign assistant would be helpful in the fact that New Zealand Rugby have got a little bit stuck in their ways of wanting to play this all black style.

I think Scott Robinson was a victim of this as well, not playing to the way that rugby is ruled at the moment in referee playing the way that they want the game to be refereed.

And you think about the high ball and the stuff that would rugby is implemented, which is absolutely mad the game you know, the the escort rule and various other things that they've implemented that has made the game absolutely, you know, an abomination at times to watch.

But this is the way it's been played, and you've got to play to the way that it's been you know, refereed at the top level, not the way that you want to play.

And there's got to be a bit of pragmatism I think around that.

I think a foreign coach could help that.

Yeah, I think in any coaching team it's good to have challenging ideas.

If you think about Hanson, Smith and Henry, they are all head coaches in their own right with vast experience, and their whole mantra was disagree and commit and I think, well, a the fact new zom Rugby has come out and said we want someone with international experience is saying we should have had that in the first place.

That's what was clearly lacking.

And I think it has been born out that there wasn't enough challenging ideas in that coaching team because it was a very tight knit clique between Scott Hansen, Scott Robertson and Jason Ryan, and they'd all coached together previously in the same Crusaders environment.

So I think in any coaching team you need to have people challenging you and foreign ideas.

Different coaching environments is very beneficial.

And look, when you look at Jamie Joseph and Dave Rennie, they both have that they've both been around, they've both had a lot of experience, so they will bring that.

But what about this?

Could they work together?

Possibly?

There was mentioned to me when the first happened that Scott Robinson left that maybe they could form a coaching team together.

Who would be the head coach?

Maybe Rennie is the head coach, Jamie Joseph looks after the Fords, you bring in a couple of other people potentially that they may present that to New Zealand Rugby.

Is that the best way forward?

That would essentially would be one horse race to be one and a half horse race.

But maybe that's the combo that New Zealand Rugby would go for the best of both of us.

Could they work together?

You know, head coaches are often very headstrong.

Some coaches don't like going back to being assistants.

Some coaches are better being assistants.

And we saw that probably with Liam McDonald not getting the influence that he wanted after being head coach at the Blues.

Yep.

And you're rights.

When you become a head coach, you get used to that autonomy and that influence, that power of making those decisions.

Someone who did that quite well I think was Tanaumo actually, albeit he's now back as a head coach with more Ona Pacificer, but he went from being the Blues head coach before Liam McDonald came on to switching with Leam became the defense coach at a very good job there from what I understand, and was kind of built for that.

And now he's back at one of Pacific and doing some good work there.

But yeah, some coaches just work better as being assistants and some coaches work better as being head coaches, and maybe they can come together and form a super team.

Yeah, I don't see Jamie Joseph sliding into an assistant coaching role.

Probably not Van kode as a touch a couple of times.

Heading to the Reds in twenty seven to twenty eight to two year deal leaving the Blues behind.

This come as a bit of a surprise to you.

Not the fact that he's leaving, but the destination.

Yeah, Is this a backward step for Vern or a sideway step or a how would you categorize it.

I think it's a good move because I think it's a very desirable position being based in Brisbane, great city, and I think the Reds have a ceiling that hasn't been met yet.

If you think about where Brad Thorne took them, he really struggled less Kiss Kimen and has improved them and I think they've got improvement yet.

They've still got a pretty good roster if you can get that forward pat going forward.

They've got some really talented backs and Vern has shown an ability to come in and have immediate results, delivered the Blues their first title in twenty one years and has made in the season at the Helm.

Whether his star was going to suit the Reds is probably a big questions, probably a long away from the way that les Kiss has them playing.

Yeah, I think Vern this will be his third year at the Blues, and I think he signposted to them.

This has been about four months in the making from what I understand, and that he Vern had verbally agreed to the Red's job prior to Razor being sacked, So that's one reason why he won't contest the All Blacks coaching job.

I also heard it's unconfirmed that's Razor applied for the Reds gig, but was pretty late in the piece, right, So whether that's true or not on one hundred percent sure, But one trusted source mentioned that to me, So.

Is he a go for the Blues job?

Well, yeah, that would be almost Dan carter esk, wouldn't it.

Cartera never took the field.

No, Grandma said no.

Yeah, I'm not sure how the good people of the mainland seeing Razor and a Blues polar What.

About you with the Verns of the Reds.

Obviously he'll see out the season before moving over there, and Liz is going to the Wallabies, so there's you know, Dick Cheers moving around.

What do you see about Vern's move to the Reds?

Is it good?

I think it's a smart move for I mean, it's a little bit of a surprise to me because I kind of felt like he was probably close to just you know, drawing a line under his professional career, maybe having crack at the All Blacks potentially, but it felt like he, you know, he's got the farm down south and maybe must sit down south in the middle of the North find and maybe that was time to draw a line under there.

But as you see, Queensland's a very desirable location.

Maybe one last challenge before he retires.

He's ticked off the Blues job.

I mean, he's really got nothing left to prove in terms of club coaching, has he And you know, but I just don't know that.

This feels like a challenge that doesn't need to take on necessarily.

But I don't mind him taking it on nonetheless.

Yeah, I spoke to Vern this morning.

He said he's motivated by the fact that Australian Super Ragged teams have struggled, right, They've been an anchor on the competition.

Really, it's been twelve years since an Australian team won Super Rugby I think twenty fourteen.

The Warata has won twenty eleven, the Reds last one a title.

So there's he's motivated by that challenge and it'd be great for the competition.

What if they win this year, if he could go there and making it.

What if they win this year and there is no challenge, if Liz Kiss leads into the Promised Land, he's just going to build on that.

You can the Brumby's win or the Force win this year and what if the Force went your life saving him when this year and an Australian team.

Has you do love a rogue pack?

Well, well we'll get into our Super Rugby preview in a couple of weeks time.

No, yeah, don't begrudge the move.

I think it is slightly backwards, maybe from Vancotta, but look they're getting a good coach, that's for sure.

Yeah, and it creates a lot of intrigue back here.

But because the Blues is open now and I think internally Paul Tito's quite highly regarded, You've got potential of Dave Rennie.

Under previous managements, the Blues went after Rennie and missed outs.

When I wrote that story that a Formature executive told me I was pissing on on my corn flakes because I wrote the story on the day of a Blues game.

It's a little fun and games well, and then yeah, Razor or whoever else.

I think the Blues is a very desirable coaching position as well, isn't it.

It is absolutely and there is a pathway the sort of to higher honors in terms of an All Blacks coaching job.

Although you're unlikely to go straight from super Raby now to coaching the All Blacks.

You're kind of having to come back from overseas experience to coach at superbe level being going to the All Blacks.

But it's a it's a it's a job in a big market and you know, fashionable team that will be appealing to too many I'm sure.

Yeah, some big personalities potentially to manage.

I think that we will see quite a bit of turnover with that Blues team in the next couple of years.

If you think about potentially guys like Dalton, Papa, Lee, Boden, Barrett, Riquewanny, some of those senior Blues players probably moving on in the next couple of years, so maybe the next gen you know, someone to bring through the next generation.

Absolutely, just make sure we don't personally anyone's call flakes this time around.

It doesn't sound very appetizing.

Yeah, hopefully no one's listening to that over the breakfast.

We will leave it there for Rugby Direct come back in a couple of weeks.

I've said this before, but pending no other big news for a bit of a superb preview on the eve of the season that's.

All right, and just get on the cane chains.

It's coming home this year yet, is it.

It's all it's all coming together.

Yeah, I don't know about that.

We will see in a couple of weeks and see where exactly I've got the canes in my ladder.

I'm surprised you didn't tip Rob Penny for the All Blacks coaching job.

Actually he's just.

An allergy unto the criteria.

But you know, they couldn't find a bit of man.

I wouldn't have thought to take on that man to right.

We'll see in a couple of weeks.

Thanks to Mark Kelly, take next time on Right good Night.

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