Carel: Josh Butt founder and chief audio officer of ampel.com.au .

Welcome to AV123 it's actually wonderful to have you on the show because you're also a voice actor, which makes us both equally invested in the attention economy because we are both in the business of persuading consumers to do stuff.

But as a start, right, do tell me why you, as a voice actor decided to start your own audio agency in Sydney, Australia.

Josh: The reason why I wanted to do an audio agency was because basically there were none.

So I needed a business I've got a very long career, I've been making video, TV commercials, films, comedy, radio, and I started Ampel as a podcast business that was making some TV shows as well, and and then COVID happened.

And so the the thing I thought was the best idea in a sea of sameness was to sound very different.

And I decided to go back to my community radio roots and really focus very hard on podcast.

And we've taken that you know, in leaps and bounds.

We've made over 75 different podcasts.

We've had hundreds of clients doing sonic branding, radio ads.

And a whole different style of audio.

We do do video as well because everyone wants a video podcast, too.

So I think the the reason for audio and podcasting is just to do it differently.

Carel: Right now on the subject of differently as an audio studio.

How are you different?

And how do you define storytelling in the context of modern media and digital platforms differently?

Josh: Well, we don't look at what we're making as something that's allowed to sound the same as something else or look the same as something else.

And so every relationship we have with the client you know, we expect to try something creatively different when it comes to a radio ad or a podcast ad or a series.

We like to think in characters.

We like in think in story.

We don't like to sell.

In our advertising that we make for people the audience doesn't appreciate ads in radio.

They don't appreciate ads in podcasts, so we don't make something that will annoy the listener we'll make something that the listener will want to hear.

Carel: It's interesting that you say that because it's a very saturated market.

And as I mentioned, the, the attention economy is our business, but the attention economy is very saturated.

So how do you not annoy people?

Josh: I generally like to make comedy, but I like to make them laugh.

Carel: All right.

Josh: And I think by making them laugh or making them sing when it comes to a jingle or making them think just by not like, you know, by respecting the fact that we, we can't turn off our ears, the way you can switch off your eyes or not look at something.

If you, if it's there, you kind of have to hear it.

So we make it different then whatever else is in that realm.

Carel: All right, and you make it different by doing what exactly?

Josh: Well you know, radio ad might be, you know, less music.

Right?

Because it's a noisy environment.

A podcast ad might be a very quiet ad because it's a very intimate environment.

Carel: Yes.

Josh: So, if it's a CEO conversation podcast or a chat cast, as we like to say it, we might try and make that a bit more interesting by doing a story cast rather than the CEO doing an interview.

Carel: From from your perspective, then is that how you define your version of storytelling?

Josh: No, I have no definition of storytelling.

It's all about telling the story.

I mean, like, why would I bother wasting my time about defining my storytelling?

I'm just always telling a good story right in the best way it needs to be told because like a true crime is going to be very different to a comedy podcast about French impressionism art.

So I don't really worry about what I'm making from a story perspective.

They're all stories.

They all have their own construct.

They've all got their own boring act structure.

Like, they've got their, their tropes.

It's about knowing whatever trope we're working with, making sure that we're true to the genre that we're in.

I mean, what do you think?

Like, how do you define it?

Carel: No, it's just, just interesting that, especially today and in the environment we function in, and a lot of people that I've spoken to over time, in terms of storytelling, authenticity is something that comes up very frequently, the concept of authenticity, to such an extent that it's gone from a noun to a verb, because people give it such importance in the way that they tell their stories.

How does authenticity play it's role in your version of storytelling when you speak on behalf of a client or you're involved in sonic branding.

Josh: Well I need to understand the mission the values the nuts and bolts you know I need to understand what makes a client tick right?

So by understanding who we're making something for.

We're not having to have the conversation around authenticity because we're creating something that is a you know, sonic reflection of who they are.

So, for example, High Pages is a a brand that you might you might not have heard of them, but if you're a trades person, if you're a contractor, I think as they would say in America, if you're a plumber, if you're a roof tiler, you would have a High Pages account to get work from and people would look up High Pages, like they would say the yellow pages.

You find a a trades person to come in and save them from their toilet that's just exploded or do some repairs or build a swimming pool.

I don't know.

Whatever the job is, it needs to be done.

You go High Pages, High Pages, gets you a few quotes.

And then you choose the trades person that's right for you.

And, you know, they come over and they they ring your doorbell and you know, fix the problem.

So they've got two audiences.

There's the people who need the trade person to come and fix the thing.

The trades person needs to book a job and get some work.

So, so I, I came up with a three tone doorbell for High Pages because the roof of the High Pages is very prominent in the house kind of shaped icon that they have.

So, the first doorbell is the person whose house you know they want to hear the doorbell ring in a trades persons coming over to fix their their problem.

The toilet that's exploded.

The plumber wants to ring the doorbell.

Because that represents a sale.

And then the third doorbell is the doorbell of the shop.

Essentially, you know, they're now going to work.

So that's like them crossing the threshold into the house to fix the problem.

And so that kind of works for the different audiences.

And then it's a tech based business.

They want you to be reminded of of the fact that they're, you know, online and use your sharpest tool because like for a tradie, you know, their sharpest tool is having High Pages.

Carel: Yes.

Josh: You know kind of going off the joke how does a doctor change a lightbulb you find someone who knows how to change a lightbulb?

Carel: Surprisingly valid as long as he doesn't have to write.

Josh: Yeah so you know every brand can have a story like that they do it in visual form already.

But 88 percent of brands don't have a a sonic logo.

They might have an audio logo like Netflix.

Carel: Yes.

Josh: So Netflix has a audio logo because you're turning on Netflix.

And so you're seeing their logo because you've just turned on the TV.

EA Sports has EA Sports, it's in the game, they make video games, so PlayStation, right, is the destination to play an EA Sports video game, so they have the sonic logo, not the audio one, because the sonic one doesn't need the visualisation.

Because they respect the fact that you're not turning on EA sports, you're turning on PlayStation.

I think a lot of brands get it wrong between the audio logo and the video and the sonic logo.

Carel: Yes.

Josh: And then my logos don't need any visual accompaniment.

Carel: Do you think it's fair to say, because it's once again a topic that's come up with a couple of people that I've had on the, on the show so far that audio is becoming more and more important.

And a lot of people feel that it's actually becoming more important than video.

Would you agree with that?

Josh: Yeah, video's useless if you've got no good audio.

Let me ask you this when you're sitting watching TV, right?

And you're eating your dinner or you're ironing your shirts or you're pottering around the house and the TV's on.

Do you notice that there's a lot of music, you know, there's occasionally a jingle, there's voiceover, there's music, right, in the ads that you're that you're supposed to be watching because the television's on?

Carel: Yeah.

Josh: Do you know, it's not cool to say the brand name, right?

Creative agencies don't like saying the brand name.

So I'm sitting, I'm supposed to be paying attention, but many TV ads, right?

Don't actually say the name of the brand because they like to be trendy at the end.

But they've spent the whole time having a voiceover or an expensive music track, but they don't say the name.

Think about that, you know, I always think about blind people or people whose heads are in their phones, how they're going to listen to what I'm doing, because audio is there before video in many respects, when you think about it from an advertising perspective, the first sonic brand was audio, you know, the first ad ever was for real estate, just in case you were ever wondering, right?

And, and I think what happens is, is that with bad audio, you can't understand what's going on because.

You know, your brain just can't process not being able to understand the, the words or or the message, but visually, you can kind of pick it up because we're exposed to so many images, more and more brands are understanding it, but not quickly enough.

And I think, you know, when it comes to things like a jingle or a sonic brand or a musical anthem, if you will, for brands.

They don't necessarily invest in the music because the marketing manager or the marketing CMO, sorry, the CMO's tenure at organization is, is kind of like 3 years or 18 months to 3 years.

So really, they just try and do something big and bold and loud, but they don't invest in you know, branding in the audio space, it's a very long answer to say the companies that do it, you can tell, because I can tell you their jingles and the companies that don't will sound exactly the same as all the other companies that don't do it.

So then you listen to a market.

You'll hear the company with the sonic brand,

Carel: Josh, when a client approaches you for sonic branding, or they want you to run an advertising campaign for them, how do you go about the process of taking them and their visual identity and translating that into a sonic identity?

Josh: I actually make it quite easy for myself.

I have a template that I use that includes a sonic ID, so some sort of mnemonic whether it's, da da da or, you know, McDonald's has da da da da

Carel: Yeah.

Josh: I come up with, with, with a memorable little sting that you'll be able to identify in one way or another.

Carel: And you find that your clients buy that without question, you know, let me, let me ask you this.

How do you approach, for example, how do you approach the balance between creativity on the one hand and the client's objectives when telling their story on the other?

Josh: Well, I, I get them to tell me the story and then I tell it back to them in sonic form.

Carel: You mean the silences between the notes are more important?

Josh: Yeah, it means the way you layer the different audio together is important or like the subtle little nuance of the story that you're hearing.

So one of the brands that I did a great sonic logo for was Tank Stream Labs.

They're like a a coworking facility that's about enabling and empowering startups to become scale ups and so their sonic brand is a walk through the office and you can hear the footsteps walking through the office and you can hear people playing ping pong and having the, you can hear like a happy birthday and a clap and a cheers and some glasses clinking and a typewriter and a fax machine and like everything single sound you would hear in office.

Carel: You create an environment.

Josh: Yeah all smooshed together where you know where it's a sonically pleasing but it also you know really explains what it is and you don't really have to hear it very often and you do understand it see the idea is that you only have to hear it a couple of times and you are now connected to it.

And, in the telling of the story to the client, it has a sonic, you know, ID, right?

Like a couple of little notes, but it also has the brand's name their website or a musical sting of some variety or sound effects to tell the story better.

And so it's an, an entire package and it's six seconds and there's a two second version as well.

And so I come with like a templated approach of how I work.

So I don't get into the conversation so much these days of, no, I don't really think that's who we are.

We don't really have that particular conversation if my clients have been through the process because we've gone through a couple of different creative workshops where we've answered a lot of questions about what's important to the business what they want to be known for who they are and so we've done a little bit of.

Investigation of strategy and, you know, the values, the missions, the goals of the business to make sure that it's deeply connected to the style guide that is their visual style guide and their tone of voice and, you know, those are the hard work that's been done on the brand.

Carel: What are some of the key elements that make the stories you produce resonate with audiences, especially if you're trying to cross or trying to address different demographics?

Do you make ads that would appeal to one demographic specifically as opposed to another?

Josh: No I'm interested in characters and stories being told I like genre so when I'm making an ad it's usually a two person ad.

There's usually someone who knows something more and someone who needs to know more, right?

Like one person's telling the other person something, or trying to get an answer outta the other person or you know, get them to do something.

So you think about who the audience is for that ad.

So you know, and, and so the audience for the ad is the audience that will buy the product or the audience that needs to know about the service.

My kids listen to a lot of ads because of me.

So they're a really good test market.

If they like it from a, from an audience perspective, or they get the complicated joke you know, that, that, that's important for me.

It's just the audience of the product or the audience of the brand.

And if that audience is not necessarily super defined, for example, like Coca Cola, let's say, right?

Coca Cola, who's Coca Cola's audience?

Well, it's anyone who's, you know, near a fridge where they're paying for a drink, right?

Carel: Yes.

Josh: But, but then Coca Cola is very sensible.

They've got an angle and their angle is party and fun time.

And you know so, so it's literally becomes anyone who wants to have fun.

I think the audiences might be defined by marketing manager.

And yes, that's important.

But ultimately, there are a whole bunch of other people who will hear this.

Don't waste your dollar.

While you're specifically targeting one brain might as well target everyone at the same time as well.

Carel: As a voice actor has your experience in your career impacted the way you approach the ads you produce and if so how?

Josh: I'll say look someone's written this it works on the page but now that I'm standing in front of a microphone doesn't work.

I can go, Oh, hang on.

I know it wasn't written this way, but I can do it this way.

And that might make it work a bit better.

And I think you know, when, when, when people are working with voice actors, often they really want it to sound like radio for example and you go yeah but if I sound like that radio voice guy I'm just going to sound like every other radio voice guy and I don't want to really sound like a radio voice guy cause that sounds too professional you know hi welcome to me doing a voice over whereas if i like sound like myself that's gonna resonate with people more because you can't tell what i look like but I kind of sound normal, I guess.

I don't sound fake or AI, because I'm stumbling a little bit.

I'm not perfect.

Well, you know, I just pop my peas.

That isn't such a bad thing if I want to get people's attention.

Carel: So that's where authenticity comes in?

Josh: Yeah.

It's living in the not perfection.

Carel: Yes.

So how do you measure the effectiveness of your storytelling in these campaigns?

Josh: Money?

Do we make a money?

Carel: All right.

Josh: Yeah.

Well, you're South African, you know, my wife's South African, you know we're all from somewhere else.

Right, we're all, we're all doing a business.

We're all you know, every voice actor, every person who's producing ads is supposed to be generating a result and that result has to be measurable and it can't be airy fairy impressions.

That's not a result.

That's numbers on a page.

A client who wants to come back, a client who wants to, you know, you know spend the money in media should be spending the money in media with a great sounding ad that will generate them a return.

And so we want it, we, we do media buys for clients and we track our our metrics as well.

So we take responsibility for our creative.

Carel: From Ampel's perspective, what are the biggest challenges you face trying to tell a brand story in today's attention economy?

I keep coming back to that because it's such a crowded place.

Josh: Do you ever hear the conversation around, Oh, I need a good website.

Course you do.

And then someone will say, well, go to Wix or go to Squarespace.

Right.

And get 10, get 10 percent off your first month free using offer code Ampel.

No, I'm just kidding.

And but you know, like, you know, Wix, Squarespace, you can get a great website done in an hour, right.

Or if you've got a shop you want to do, and you can get a great Shopify website that comes with all the e commerce that are all done, right.

You're ready to go.

You have your shop up in an hour.

Sure.

They're going to help you run your business.

Nah.

Right, and I think what, companies like Wix and Squarespace did was very smart was they go, I don't know what you're doing, but I know, you need a website here are a whole bunch of different suppliers.

You can find our experts on this marketplace within the website.

Right?

And so people now go, cool.

I need a website that I don't have to build.

Right?

Carel: Yes.

Josh: They've done that really well to make sure that people are enabled in the in the attention economy to create a website that's really good right?

We only want to work with people who want to build their own website.

But then get a bit scared because they don't really know how to kind of actually, you know, make their audio ads, everyone kind of doesn't know what to do when it comes to audio.

And so we work with clients who are prepared to sound different, who are prepared to take a bit of creative risk who are prepared to understand the power of the fragmentation of the audio world.

And that audio is about niche audiences.

But, you know, we don't care about the attention economy because every brand needs an audio channel for the way they've got LinkedIn or Instagram, but for their ears.

And by having a focus on audio, you still get great video.

So really we start very basic B2B audio, not necessarily making a podcast.

It's going to have a hundred thousand listeners.

That's just not feasible for most people.

Certainly not on day one for most brands.

People don't care about brands unless brands have something worth saying or listening to.

In audio it's a bit different than it is in video.

Video is very much a distraction, you know, blogs, Twitter, or sorry, X Reddit.

LinkedIn, these places are places where people get distracted from their day to day, whereas with audio, you're going for a run while you're listening to it, or you're walking the dog, or you're driving in your car, you know, it's an accompaniment and you're an engaged listener because you want to listen to something.

Why would they choose you?

Why?

Yeah, so the choice of being chosen, that's the hard bit.

Carel: When you say taking creative risks, you want your clients to take creative risks, what do you say?

Josh: Don't be boring, sound different.

Don't, don't be boring.

Basically it is, it is different for every person, but you know, I just saw I just saw Slack did a show tune to advertise Slack and I thought that was great.

You know, a show tune was not boring.

Let's say, for example, you're doing a radio ad you're not, you're not allowed to sound like the ad that's come before you, or the ad that's come after you.

So if it's not allowed to be, G'day, Roger here from Roger's auto shop.

Do you need new tires?

All right.

You're not allowed to do that.

Now, unless it's hilarious, if it's hilarious, you can do whatever you want.

Carel: Okay is comedy a big seller, Josh?

Josh: It is if you're a famous comedian.

And if you're not then you should make radio ads because there's a lack of comedy on radio so you know, there's also no, there's also no one's ever cracked doing a sonic sitcom or a soncom like I say.

Comedy and audio go hand in hand.

I mean, I grew up listening to tapes of every comedian I ever knew And, you know, comedy doesn't need the visuals.

If you're a good comedian, your jokes work.

And so I think we're you know, again, going back to taking a creative risk, just not sounding like anyone else is a really good idea.

It'll be 2.

2 times cheaper and more effective than having something boring.

And that's immediate.

Carel: How do you how do you actually see the role of audio storytelling evolving in the coming years?

Josh: Well I think we'll start to hear a audio short story more often like drama dramatized plays like audio plays, I think we'll start to hear that eventually.

I think, you know, with with TV mining and film you know, just struggling to approve new ideas that often.

They like doing sequels and prequels and, you know, borrowing from IP.

I think audio will be a great source of IP development for TV and film.

I think there's huge opportunities there.

But there's no, there's a, there's a lack of funding for, for audio storytelling.

Like there's a lack of funding for writing development for film and TV shows.

So I think audio creative will become part of the writing process for many things that we like.

I think we'll hear much more great audio content from like Alexa speakers and Siri and you know, voice assistants and I know those shops have sort of closed a little bit and there's not a huge amount being done like there was but I think we'll interact with voice in a very different way in the coming years.

You know, once all the learning, the chat GPTs and learning modules and all that understand Australian accents and UK accents.

But you know, like all the different languages and people will just be interacting with computers and and technology with their voice a lot more than we currently are.

But I think also, Dolby Atmos, which allows you to do 360 degree audio and with the huge, dramatically huge rise of the large format screens.

I think we'll hear, we'll hear more great audio as an experience as well.

Basically everywhere there's an event, anywhere there's a screen, I think there's an opportunity for a better audio experience or actually a better sonic experience.

Carel: As a final question, Josh, what advice would you give clients or potential clients looking to harness the power of storytelling in today's saturated market?

Josh: If you were to take something from this conversation, what do you think my advice would be?

Carel: Be different.

Josh: Yeah.

That's always what I say.

Let's sound different.

That's, that's the thing I always tell everyone and I use that word.

Let's sound different because there's my verb.

I can do lots of cool stuff.

But it's going to create a lot of really boring, mediocre content, and that's okay.

I've already got that on radio and TV and YouTube and Instagram and LinkedIn.

Like, there's an abundance of boring content.

And so I think if you want to get attention, you've got to strive for making something worth attention grabbing.

It's more expensive to be boring because you need to have a bigger media budget to push out your boring stuff that no one's going to want to listen to it.

So, so if you want to make money, actually just be more creative, like stop touching it, do it once and be done with it for a while.

Like make a jingle and say, right, we're not going to touch that for 10 years because in 10 years, everyone will have heard your jingle at some point.

So you'll get free media in a few years, but you know, you've just got to have a long term sonic process or thought process to it.

Carel: Just as a tag on question, for many voice actors and for many people in the creative business, AI is something of a destructive tsunami.

Josh: Yeah.

Carel: Do you see it as one?

And if not, why not?

Josh: Yeah, like it's definitely coming for a lot of people's jobs, like you're not going to be able to be average in this business at all in about 18 months.

If you don't have something that's a distinctive quality that sets you apart you are gonna be a prompter for an AI machine.

Your job, your job will be the same.

It'll be like you are a voice actor, but you know, you might be the voice selector.

There are a lot of people who survives in the eighties and the nineties that won't, won't survive in the business.

But, you know, at the same time, there are other opportunities and so, you know, we'll find more opportunities and there'll be much more to think about creatively because, you know, we won't have to do as much, but, you know, I, I don't think AI are coming for every single person's jobs.

But it's coming for the ones, who are very competent, you know, those are the people I'm afraid for.

The people who never, who always wanted to do it as a hobby or do it for a bit of fun, they'll still get to do it.

If it's not their business, they'll still be able to get to do it you know, and so I think, you know, my advice to anyone who wants to be a voice artist or make radio ads or just to do anything that is considered content it's just, yeah, learn your craft, go learn the old way to do it.

Know the old way to do it and find your craft and then lean into it.

And if you're a voice actor and you've got a voice that everyone says, oh, no, no, no, I don't think you could be a voice for radio because you've got a lisp or you've got a drawl.

Don't listen to them.

If your voice sounds different, then that's going to be very important because AI can't do different.

AI can only do the same.

Carel: That's a, that's a very astute observation.

Josh Butt, Founder and Chief Audio Officer of ampel.com.au.

Thank you so much for being on AV123.

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