Did we call each other this morning like you should wear your Gray flannel?

Does it?

Does it look cute?

I can't believe it's been 10 years.

I know you too.

Regret has no place in a focused mind.

No.

What makes you say that?

I could easily blame my dad or my mom for abandoning me or whatever.

And like, I think that's a cop out and an excuse, you know?

You've been married five times.

What's your perspective on the challenges you've had on that front?

What's the common denominator?

Who's the same person in all those all 5?

Me, I don't think until I met Elena was the first time.

Like OK, I don't want this to fail.

You still enjoy the gun business more than the bike business.

I think so.

I've built a lot of cool bikes, but no one's ever got one in their hands and broke down and cried like they have when I've given people guns.

No one realizes like the people with the highest sense of self value, our people that work with their hands.

I can't believe it's been 10 years.

I know, like I was trying to think what I I was just kind of starting guns, I think.

Correct, right?

Is is very Still trying to figure it out I think.

Why?

Why were you interested in talking again?

Well, I I wrote a book last year and then I'm trying to go for the hat trick.

What's the hat trick?

Three New York Times bestsellers in a row.

Doesn't it feel funny saying that I'm a New York Times bestselling Arthur?

Like a dumb idiot like me?

Oh, please, no.

But I mean, I have trouble saying it myself.

I'm like, I think I'm kind of shy about it, that I'm a writer because I don't know, it doesn't fit the whole like, tough guy, welding bikes, guns.

Also writing composition.

How do you feel about that writing?

Process.

Oh, I love it.

It was the only subject in high school that I passed on my own.

The rest of the classes I think I passed because I was good at football and they just wanted to get me the hell out of there.

And I had one teacher named Miss McClain that didn't put up with any for me.

And she was my English composition teacher.

And she just forced me to write.

She knew I was a pretty angry kid and didn't have like the best home life.

She's like, you got to just write it down.

And like, I remember one time when I first started, I was, I didn't really embrace it.

This is I was probably a sophomore in high school and I wrote down.

We were had to write a poem or something.

And I just wrote down like the lyrics from this, like punk band The Descendants.

I just wrote down the lyrics from this song and she busted me.

She like knew who the Descendants were and knew the lyrics to that song, which was like, OK, like, all right, I can't do that anymore.

She's like, you don't plagiarize stuff, you need to just write.

And then I ended up writing like my senior class poem in high school.

I don't know.

I think it's like a outlet, like for all the crazy stuff going around in my head.

And I think this book is a.

And in what way is it an outlet for you?

I think I'm able to type things and just let words flow out easier in text or or written form than I am to verbalize it.

Really.

I think so.

And why do you think that is?

Well, I think it's, I don't know, you can think of a lot of crazy shit in your brain, but to write it all down and, like, write it in a structured format, it's who are you going to tell that to the mirror?

Like, you know, I can Elaine and I can rattle off all this stuff about work and building stuff and core ethics and all that.

And she's just like, yeah, anyway, let's watch Seinfeld, you know, like, you know, it kind of doesn't.

And I don't really have anybody I could talk to that stuff.

But I think writing is a form of, like talking to myself.

I think.

I don't know.

Do you enjoy kind of the the solitude of it?

I like telling stories.

I think the last two books were kind of like riding my wave of popularity or dis popularity like during the tabloid scandal and all that.

And so, OK, yeah, he's coming out with a book.

You know, makes sense.

This time I wanted to do I really wanted to do a self help book for men, but not I think all self help books are either like financial, this is how you invest money or like health, this is how you work out or diet.

And nobody ever talks to the guy in the shop or the guy that wants to be in the shop.

You know, I think society as a whole kind of looks down at people with that work with their hands, blue collar, you know, a greasy diesel mechanic.

No one's going to think that guy makes 200 grand a year.

No one realizes like the people with the highest sense of self value are people that work with their hands.

Because you're like literally taking these things, doing something with it and fulfilling yourself, supporting your family, everything else.

So it's like a really pure form.

And I just wanted to like, any way people can contact me for decades they've been like, I want to come work in your shop.

I want to learn what you do.

How do you do this?

What is that?

I want those tools.

I want this, you know, no one's ever really sat down and explained any of that stuff.

And trust me, I study a lot of contemporary artists because I think fifties, 60s artists, they had, they had to have a work ethic and you had you're, you're selling paintings and making money and there was a strong desire.

So you had to like match it with work, you know, if the, if a artist was lazy, he didn't really make money.

But there's only one book I've found that speaks to blue collar and it's called Blue Collar Journal.

And it was, I think it was written in the 80s.

It's about a, a college president that took a one year sabbatical and worked as a trash man, a ditch digger and a dishwasher in the busiest seafood restaurant in Boston.

And it totally changed him.

Like he's like, you know, he had to leave.

He had to leave the sabbatical to go to a, he was on the, I think it was Bar K's Bank in New York.

He had to go to a board of directors meeting for the bank for like 1 day.

So he had to leave being a trash man to go to that meeting.

You'll suit everything.

And he said all I was doing at the meeting is sitting there daydreaming about how those dudes were calling me a bitch and like, you know, you like it, but in a very fond camaraderie, like he wasn't mad about.

And he was considerably older than everybody he worked blue collar jobs with.

So he's like, you know, and it, it, it changed him where he realized the value of work, you know, sitting at a desk and all that stuff is like, cool, but you're not, it's not high in the self value department.

Yeah, I do wonder if the, the value, the public value of blue collar jobs are starting to change some, because it certainly seems in the the the finance world, they're starting to put more value on it.

You see all these private equity companies coming in and buying these blue collar companies and, you know, so on and so forth.

But by the way, I don't think you give yourself enough credit for the last book or the the memoir because I mean, anybody who's read it, I mean, it's full of great stories and it's an easy read, thoroughly entertaining.

And even if you had the benefit of, you know, publicity surrounding that, then they they don't, I thought.

People were going to hate that book.

Like you shouldn't.

I think I was riding the wave of like, tabloid media.

And I think, like, I'm like, OK, more of me in the media.

That's just going to make people hate me more.

But, you know, people seem to connect with it.

Not everyone, but if you just look at the reviews on Amazon, I I didn't look at him until like a couple of years ago.

I'm like, wow, people really love that book.

I was like surprised, like I never, I think I never even really looked at it.

I didn't even know there was people could go in and like Jesse's a Dick but most the majority is like positive.

You know when you first took the leap in down.

Oh, the way.

Let me comment on your Why did I want to talk to you again?

Oh, sure.

Because wrote the book and then book publisher and everything.

Oh, we need to do a media tour and you need to do Joe Rogan and all that stuff.

And your name was the first one.

I'm like, I don't know.

I'm pretty loyal and stick.

I'm not going to do some podcasts or something with someone I don't really know.

And like, you're the first person I called.

They don't even know I set this up.

Oh no.

So they're going to love me.

Because I didn't even want if they, if they knew I set it up, they'd be all here.

Oh, hi, Graham.

Nice to meet you.

And I'm such, and I as I don't know, I'd rather just you and I, I appreciate that, you know, like, I don't need, you know, it's like why I always did everything with Vicki Mabry from 60 Minutes is because she went to Kitty Hawk, NC in like 2002 or three and like, watch me build, watch me fly a flying car I built.

And I'm like, OK.

And it was freezing cold that day.

And she stood out there and watched it and like, I'm like, I don't know.

I'm just kind of like, stick with people I know and like and like.

The stuff we did before is pretty funny.

Yeah, and, and it resonated with people.

Except for like, Sylvester Stallone, maybe it's not so funny.

Did he ever comment OK?

No.

Yeah, context there's.

You would not make a bike for Sylvester Stallone because he insisted on it being yellow.

Yes, and yellow is.

Yeah.

All right, so.

The I just wanted to finish your.

And the reality is there's something to be said for like trust and loyalty.

And you know, I'll just.

Well, I don't think I'm an easy person to interview and OK, cool, I go on Joe Rogan.

What am I going to talk to that dude about?

That dude doesn't even know how any of these machines turn on, doesn't even really know what I do, you know, And I think he's riding the wave of like it's it's a handshake because he's picking people that are going to make him more popular and look good.

They're picking him to make themselves look more popular and look good.

And I don't think that's a really great combination for something that's considered like journalism.

I think you were like, you do your research, you know, I compare you to Roy Firestone where like the dude, like did an interview with him and he knew like a ton about me before I even like a ton about like my college football career and stuff, which very flattering for my ego.

But he took the time, you know, and I don't know.

That is certainly one thing that we try and do.

I mean, I, I've always felt like if somebody's going to be generous enough with their time to do an extended filming with us, then, you know, you want to come prepared and the the art of the Craftsman.

You a few comments you made in that that I just wanted to toss your way.

The, the first thing you know, you said when you first got into entrepreneurship, you didn't have a five year road map.

You didn't have a solid plan.

Explain that.

Well, I wasn't really into entrepreneurship.

Literally just everything started with building 1 bike on my time off in my mom's garage.

That was it.

And then, you know, doing security work, living in Europe on this as my main job and I all of this stuff wasn't considered a good career choice.

Like when I was in high school and took metal shop, that's what all the stoners took.

Like I was the only person in the whole school in metal shop class that was interested in actually metal welding, all that stuff.

And I think, you know, flash forwarding 5 or 6 years, seven years when I quit doing security and told myself I'm going to, I'm going to build bikes.

Everybody was like what?

You know, nobody really.

It just wasn't a smart decision.

It wasn't going to support a family.

It wasn't going to pay your bills.

It was like what all the heads did.

Like I said before, you know, I think people look down on those type of people, especially bikers, you know, oh, that guy's, you know, going to stab someone or he's dirty smells.

You know, it wasn't considered for sure, wasn't considered art or viable.

You know, now if you're going to, I'm going to be a bike builder, but like, oh man, not so smart.

You know, like that's a good job.

Like, you know, you said a discipline.

Starts with the little things in the book you wrote that.

How so?

If you're working for someone, you're going to have someone.

If you're one of those person that needs to be managed, you're either self starting or you need to be managed.

So if you're need to be managed, you're going to have to have someone over your shoulder.

OK, do this job.

OK, I do it.

OK, now after you're done with that, do this and then like, you know, OK, you're done for the day.

Clean up, clean your tools and put your tools away and clean your work area.

You know, you're going to need someone to like kind of tell you all that stuff.

Well, I think starting your own business and shop, you're the one that has to tell yourself all that.

So it's like I have my discipline apply.

Yeah.

I, I call it, do it now.

Don't wait.

OK, So there's a piece of trash on the floor.

Stop.

Pick it up, put it in the trash.

You know, And so you don't.

I think if you wait, all the little things will add up.

And then, and it could be answering an e-mail, calling someone back, ordering parts, you know, on a Friday.

I have like an internal thing in my internal clock in my brain.

Where Friday rolls around, I start thinking about the stuff I need for Monday OK, so if I'm going to order something Thursday or Friday and have it like, you know, red or blue labeled in so I have it so I can plan my next work week, you know I'll order it know that what I have to do for the next week.

If you procrastinate and don't have discipline to do that stuff right when you need to do it, then you then it, it screws up your whole next week because then, oh, I'll order it Monday morning.

Then you're not going to get it even on the fast side of town.

You're not going to get it till Tuesday afternoon or Wednesday.

And so then you only have a couple days before you have to the cycle starts again.

You know, where you have to work and do stuff.

So it's, it's, I think it's, I've just seen a lot of people that just don't handle, you know, wait till the last minute and then when time comes around and then all it does is like stack up and then you miss deadlines, you piss off customers, you don't get to put the maximum amount of Labor to make something really, really great and beautiful.

Regret has no place in a focused mind, no.

What makes you say that?

Well, it's like living in the past, you know, like I didn't have the best childhood.

But I think as I've got older, just in the last 10 years too, since we talked the last time, you know, I could easily blame my dad or my mom for abandoning me or whatever and like use that as some kind of crutch for life or any kind of inadequacies.

But, you know, I've had to like, really realize like how much good my dad applied to me by being hard on me, you know, like it what he made a decision, I don't know if it was conscious or not to like, hey, make me do things right and make me like, work from a very young age, you know, even football, like he was dead set on me being college and then a Pro Football player.

And that was his dream, too.

But I would play high school on Friday nights and I'd get home on the bus at like 1:00 in the morning.

I had to be up at 4:30 to go to the swap meet with him to help him unload his truck on Saturday morning.

With without, it wasn't even like I could just remember feeling like I was going to die.

And you know, that was just the way it is.

By the way, do you think there's any connectivity to you quitting drinking and you're dead?

I only saw my dad drink a beer one time and I think he took a sip of it.

I don't really know.

I, I'm pretty sure he drank like probably cocktails.

I mean, everybody around him I know drank.

I don't think so.

I think it was like my own focus and, you know, making a conscious decision on my own, not because of anything else, you know?

And you haven't drank for like 1/4 century going on 26 years.

Yeah, yeah, it was amazing.

I want to drink.

At probably like almost every day.

Oh.

Really.

Yeah.

Like, I love beer, you know, but I just have to like, you know, I don't think that feeling's ever gonna go away.

But it.

I don't know.

You can't.

Someone told me a long time ago, like, don't take too much from this world.

And it like I and it's like, OK, I could have the shop and guns and bikes and a cool wife and kids and badass cars and bikes and I can't also drink and be a drunk idiot.

Also that doesn't you know, that's taking too much.

Be satisfied with what I have, you know.

What you mentioned over the past decade, you've kind of reoriented your thinking on your dad front.

How so?

Well, I think I consciously when I wrote this book, I like didn't want it to be a negative.

You know, some of the stuff I point out that he did is like borderline child abuse, but it here I am, you know, I'm the product of it and it like, and it's not negative.

I just think it's really easy for people like, Oh, my mom and my dad and, you know, like, oh.

Poor me, it's really easy to whine and complain about childhood and all that stuff, and I think I got caught up in that a little bit, but.

What?

How do you think you got caught up in it?

I think realizing like I came from an abusive childhood, you know, and kind of accepting that I think I had to like go through it, realize it, realize how bad it was, and then also realize like, hey, I'm still walking and talking.

I can do every I'm functional, I've built a successful business and brands and like you know, what's the problem?

In the context on this too is I know when you were in rehab back in the day, a very impactful moment for you was when it was acted out.

Your.

Dad breaking your arm?

Yeah, role play.

Why do you think that impacted you so much in the moment?

I don't know, I'm 6 foot three, 218 lbs strong, lift weights, play football, do metal work, ride Harleys.

So I'm everything about me is like this tough guy.

So visualizing myself as a little 7 year old getting ran down by your dad and getting your arm broken, like it's not something I think I was ready to accept.

And now I'm just like, OK, yeah, my dad was a Dick head.

And it was a it was the 70s that, you know, parenting wasn't really a thing.

Parents that had kids in the 70s were from the 60s.

So like drugs and beatnik era and then hippie era.

And then like, OK, you're going to expect those kind of people to like all of a sudden like, OK, this is what I need to do.

He needs to get 12 hours of sleep and like eat right and like no, non-GMO and all that.

That wasn't no parents were like, and these kids are a drag, you know, like.

I'm going to say I mean.

To the point where my mom like gave me up when I was like 4 or five to like my dad and Barry.

Like.

Your dad and Barry Weiss, OK from storage Wars was lived with my dad and they lived in a warehouse in Paramount and they my mom dropped me off there.

OK, you live with them now?

Like great, great.

You remember what you were thinking at the time.

All I can remember is like being getting the scared out of me by Barry all the time.

How so?

Well, I was kind of a skinny little, not frail, but like kind of a crybaby kid.

And I remember my dad's warehouse was really long dark corridor and they were always working at night.

And I remember the bathroom was way back in the back of the warehouse, and I was probably 5 or 6, and there was a hole in the drywall by the toilet.

And I'm scared going back there and scared sitting on the toilet taking the dump.

And then Barry for some reason got this glove that was like a fur glove and reached through the hole and snuck back there while I was pooping and reached through the hole and went and grabbed my leg when I was little.

And I jumped up and like pissed all over myself.

And, you know, they, they thought it was just the funniest thing ever.

I'm probably traumatized from that, but.

Do you think you think your dad did the best he knew how?

Yeah, probably.

Like his dad died.

My grandpa Jesse Herndon James died in 1955 when my dad was I think 14 or 15.

So like, I don't really know.

And I don't really know much about how, you know, everything is passed on.

So I don't know how his parenting or anything like that was.

So you know.

Did your father's passing and I think 2020 impact you kind of in the way you were expecting?

No.

Yeah, how so?

Well, he was sick for a while and I knew it was probably coming, but I tried to reconnect with him and it just didn't go as I wanted.

You know, I think I had this like dream I, I think my dad was involved in so much cool stuff when I was a kid, antiques and cool custom cars and wasn't a bike guy.

But everything else was cool and.

Also also adult drugs and like it but.

There's that, but I think I've always secretly wanted him to be part of all of this because I know he would love all of it, right.

You know, and it just it just that ship sailed.

You know, he kind of it it I tried to talk with him and then it kind of was weird and he kind of only wanted money and only really got excited when I mentioned sending him some money.

And it just kind of like, you know, never asked about grandkids or anything like that.

And it kind of just falls in line with the like non parenting.

How did you handle that?

I wrote him a letter and just like kind of told him everything out, like from age like 15 when I moved out to like now, like this is it and this is all the stuff.

Then there's some stuff that went on.

I don't really want to talk about that kind of non forgivable, you know.

And like, it's tough.

It's tough.

I think when you have, I think I'm very envious of people like you and your dad, you know, like I'm like, it's such a cool thing to me to see.

And I just always want to be that for my kids and.

What's funny is I'm on the tail end of a few year period where I was like basically not talking to my dad.

And it's when you're in that you're I, I even just in that few year period became immediately envious of people who had excellent relationships with.

Their holidays and everybody getting together and yeah.

And it, yeah, well, I think it's one of those things all you can do is focus on you and focus on how you are with your kid and just accept it for what it is.

Trying to force blame by the inadequacies in your life because of your childhood is trying to force blame.

OK.

I'm not doing this particular thing or getting this particular thing because my dad was a Dick and was mean to me.

I don't really think that.

I think that's a cop out and an excuse, you know, and all of this modern parenting and sleep and food and school and STEM projects and all this stuff, it's all a modern thing.

You know, this is really only the last.

You know, even when Sunny was little, none of that stuff really existed.

And I think you have to accept like, you know, parents from probably the 30s to the 80s didn't give a or 90s, you know, they were just like doing their own thing and like, OK, here, here's some Mac and cheese.

Or had less of a road map and not the same level of knowledge today.

But even if your dad did stuff that you considered unforgivable, I mean, you deserve a lot of credit for getting to a place where you were able to write that letter and attempted to reconnect.

What made you decide you wanted to do that?

Well, I didn't really talk to him from 85 to 2017.

And did he ever try and reach out?

Not really like when when I became famous like like 25 years ago, when I was first on TV, the first thing he did is like, you know, you save all your schoolwork and pictures and stuff.

First thing he did is sell all that shit on eBay and and like you know it, which is pretty hurtful.

Like imagine your son and gets famous and imagine selling some of his possessions or heirlooms or memories be devastating.

For.

Money like it's just like you don't do that.

Like, you know, and it, it kind of is very indicative of like what kind of person that is just a hustler and like, you know, he'd sell out anybody for two grand or whatever, you know.

What about your mom?

You've already made the comment about her just kind of dropping you off and this is where you're living now, but you've also made the comment before about how when you were jailed, she was the only person that came to visit.

You and.

Did so on Christmas.

Only person to visit me at the California Youth Authority one time, but still different version of my dad as far as like not really.

Look, when you have kids, you have to make some sacrifices in your life, you know, personal life, you know, business life, everything kind of has to turn around and be structured for putting those kids in the forefront.

And I don't think my parents really did that.

I think kids are, you know, they've got to be a priority.

And you, you know, and I think both my parents were kind of that area where that wasn't really a thing, you know, and I think I, I never really knew my mom until she moved in here.

She was here for like 5 years.

And it's the first time I've kind of ever been around her for a prolonged period of time.

And I, you know, I love my mom, but we just don't have that.

It's not that mom son relationship.

It just is.

It just does.

It does.

It's not there, you know.

What did you learn about her through your guys time together here?

Well, I have a sister that's super shady that's been to prison for like check fraud, wire fraud, Social Security fraud and all that stuff.

And I kind of thought my dad was kind of a shady character too.

I thought she got it all from my dad, but I learned, like, I think she probably got it from my mom.

Really.

Yeah.

And they're like 2 together.

And my mom, you know, I just, I don't know.

I don't want to talk bad about her 'cause she's still around, you know?

But definitely also me trying to force a situation 'cause she got into a bad situation with my sister.

I had to go to Arkansas, get her, move her in here, send the guys in the truck with the the big trailer, pick up all her stuff, move her here, buy her a car, wreck that car, buy her another car, give her money, all that stuff.

And like kind of do my duty as a son to take care of my mom that's getting older.

And then it just it, it just didn't.

I think I was doing it for myself.

I wasn't really doing it because I need to do it for her.

But then I realized like, oh, wait, this isn't I, I don't know, didn't really, I don't know, I don't want to say anything bad about her, but it just didn't the relationship.

I think I was probably trying to make it so we had like a oh mom, you know, and like have this great relationship and and reconnect.

And then I realized, like this, that's not happening.

Kind kind of similar to when you efforted.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Your dad, which I mean again, credit to you for making the effort, but you can't change.

Somebody that doesn't want to change.

So, you know, if they were like in their late teens and early 20s, maybe it's like teachable.

But you know, these are people in their 70s and early 80s.

They're not.

They're not changing.

What makes you say that your grandma's passing, which I think you were 12 at the time, was still kind of the most traumatic moment of your life?

She when my dad was busy or traveling, everything, I always stayed with my grandma and like my dad was pretty abusive and my, my stepmom was abusive.

And then there was times where I was like, you know, 9-10 years old, I'd call my mom, come get me.

And she would never always had, oh, I don't have gas or I got to do this tomorrow or whatever.

There was always excuses.

My Nana though, like I would tell her I need her.

And you could hear the phone hit the floor.

She would be in her car come get me.

So it was like kind of one person in my life that was like a savior, you know, and that that was her for sure.

Which you almost don't realize till you get a little older like the impact that has.

Well, it goes to sacrifices.

Like I said, my Nana was willing to make sacrifices because I was the baby.

I was the youngest out of all the grandkids, out of all the nieces and nephews.

I was the baby and so and she couldn't stand my sister and my sister was pretty cruel and mean to me.

So, you know, she would always gather me up in those situations and I would go stay with her.

And like, she was an antique dealer.

She was just the best, like just just mom, grandma, everything.

Like I remember we were in, you know, she'd always make Thanksgiving dinner.

She would be in the kitchen cooking and she'd like, she'd cut a big fart and then she'd look at me and she'd go don't tell no one, you know?

And it's just like, that's just like some of my best memories, you know, like just being that kind of connection, you know?

Or the time that you called her that your your stepmom had was being abusive to you.

Yeah, and I had, I remember staring in my driveway, poking her finger in my stepmom's chest like I was, I think, down the driveway.

I couldn't see it, but I could see her.

Like I don't know what she was saying, but she was pissed.

She has your back.

Yes.

You know, it's interesting, you've made the comment somewhere when talking about your own kids that you know, you consciously did not want to push your kids in the way your dad pushed you, but you have since wondered if you should have.

There's something like I I might have that wrong a little bit, but.

Carla was always wanted to be friends with Jesse Junior and didn't want him to hate her to the point.

Where that was your first wife.

Yeah.

And the point where she babied him and, like, made him.

And I think he's experiencing challenges by not really being forced to, like, accept consequences, responsibility, that kind of stuff.

Our mission and job is to like take those kids and make sure they grow up smart, healthy, all their fingers and toes and get them to 18.

And I don't give two, whether they're friends with me or not.

You know, the girls I was, Chandler and Sonny, I was really hard on.

And both of those girls are adults now and completely supporting themselves, never asked me for anything.

Living on their own.

I take a certain pride in their self-sufficiency.

You know that I raised girl and and I think it's harder for a girl than a boy, you know, for them to be so strong and like just doing what they want.

And when you say you were hard on them, what is hard look like from you as a parent?

Well, Sunny, perfect attendance.

1st through 12th straight A's, 1st through 12th Congressional scholarship.

She's a tattoo artist.

She's amazing photographer, which is why she got a congressional scholarship and like, although she went to that super liberal arts school in Manhattan, the new school for with her scholarship and had a terrible experience, you know, but hey, she earned it.

So I let her pick the school I should have been more I wanted.

You should go to UT then you could just stay at home.

But you know, she's got AI think 18 kids have got to like get out there and experience it and do it, make mistakes.

Like when I was, you know, 1920, I moved to Europe for five years, didn't even tell my parents.

Nobody even knew I left or knew where I was.

No one, none of my friends, nothing.

I just gone.

You, I think, alluded to this, that you don't really have much of a relationship with your son.

Why not?

He's just, he's really, really a lot like me.

Like he's just a, just a dickhead.

And just like, you know, like it's, it's not the same angst as myself and my dad.

I think he's well.

Carla at the beginning of COVID in 2020 got diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer's and dementia.

I'm sorry.

Yeah.

And so Carla, it was right at the beginning of COVID, my first granddaughter was going to be born in a month.

And I'm like with Chandler, I'm like, what do we do?

She was living downtown.

So Carla moved in here.

She lived here for almost 6 years.

And I think Jesse, he's such a mama's boy and so close to his mom, living with her, her doing everything for him, that I, I think he's having a hard time processing it that his mom's not there anymore.

She's alive.

She's we've since moved her to an assisted living like memory care facility.

But it's, you know, Carla's this 6 foot blonde, busty tan, you know, tough ass bitch.

And then now she's reduced to like, you know, she was here.

I was taking care of her for, you know, almost six years and so having Jesse someone that everything hinges on his mom there for him for everything.

It I I don't think he's really I think he's having a rough time with it.

You know, I'm give him give him a you know, he like wants to try to fight with me and stuff and I just won't hear.

I just laugh at it.

I'm like you're, you don't know what you're talking about, but I can see that it's like his mom.

You know, that's the nucleus of his life is hard for him to process that, you know, 'cause Alzheimer's.

Really it's it just sucks man.

Kind of a young age for her to.

Yeah, she got diagnosed at, she's nine years older than me, so she got diagnosed at 60 something, 60 really young.

Do they do they know why she got it?

She got, you know, she, she had a house downtown that she bought investment property and then sold it, made some money.

And then like, I'm going to go see my friends in Pennsylvania like her adopted sister.

And she doesn't have any family.

And so because she's a foster kid and I guess she got in the bad carts and none of us really know what happened, but got a head injury and they think that might have been the start of it.

You know, like when she's here, it shows how great Elena is.

Because imagine asking my girlfriend and fiance to move in.

But I have my first wife lives here too.

Like, you know, it's a pretty crazy situation that she stepped into, but she's totally was all aboard And she's like Carla's so nice.

I'm like, that's not the real her.

Like the real Carla thinks I'm a Dick head and we'll take notes.

And she, it made her really docile and like.

How do you think the Jessie relationship gets fixed?

I don't know.

I think as long as his mom is in the I, I don't know.

I don't know.

If I if I knew how we could fix it, I would do it.

I I had been told that there needs to be a softening on both sides and that there's A and that's.

Only there's a lot because I'm gone.

Like I'll do whatever, you know, I love that kid and I want him to like, you know, he tried to work here and then try, you know, he's just, I don't know, I don't think he really realizes cause the little can Weld.

He learned to TIG Weld or he learned to Weld when he was six.

He learned to TIG Weld aluminum when he was 9.

He can, he's got those.

He's got the dexterity, he's got the Craftsman hands.

He can do it.

He just doesn't have any desire to do it.

He's trying to find the magic trick of life that keeps him from doing it, from working.

And he he's trying to do all this other stuff.

That's cool.

Oh, I'm going to work for a record company.

I'm going to do this.

But he doesn't realize like, you know, the coolest right here, you know, you like your, your name's on the building already.

Just do it.

And so I don't know, he'll, he'll come around.

I just think I don't know, I have to just look at the averages like I have 4 kids.

Three of them are kicking ass.

I got one that's a Dick head.

So I think I should be thankful that like, you know, I don't know He'll, I just don't want him to be that boss's kid.

Oh, what do you mean?

Everyone, you know, everyone I know, everyone, everyone knows that has a successful business.

They all have a son that's a kid.

Any and it doesn't matter the business, it doesn't matter the industry.

It's that prodigal son.

It's just like, oh, you know, it's like entitlement lazy.

You know, they all have this certain angst for they feel like they're in competition with their dad for coolness or like, you know, success or whatever.

So to try to like, you know, it's just got to happen on his own.

Look, he gets these.

I think he's angry at life, angry at the situation with his mom.

So he'll get on Telegram and send me a bunch of texts.

Like what?

He'll just say stupid, like, you know, you think you're all cool because you're friends with Trump and and like driving your Hummer around like a douche and like, you know, he's just, he's been detached and been with his mom away from me so much.

I feel like he doesn't really know me well as him being an adult, you know, he's looking at everything on Instagram and thinking he's putting the pieces together of like, what's his dad's about.

And like, I don't really think he, you know.

He'll get it, He's gonna say.

The reality is, even if it takes a minute, if two people want to repair.

Like I love him and I know I know he loves me.

There's no non love there because like you know, he got arrested, went to jail and called me crying to bail him out and I did a few times.

You said you're a different dad with Bishop now then you were with your other kids.

How so?

Well, Jesse was born in 1990, seven, 1997.

We lived at the beach, but the shop was 9 miles up PCH in Long Beach and so it might as well have been 9000 miles.

I wasn't an absent dad or a bad dad.

I was just at work every day building a business and stuff like that.

I was being responsible in doing what I thought I was supposed to be doing, you know, paying for everything.

But by the way, that's the one part of your book that I was going to call bull to where you're like, you have to know when to stop when it comes to work.

And I was going to say that's for you.

That's more do as I say, not as I do, because you're on all the time, right?

I've learned lately to like pace myself.

You know, oh, come on.

Really well.

I mean, even when I was talking.

About.

Like he works all the time, Bishop.

Changed everything for me because what I thought I was being a decent dad and like those kids, they don't know what it's like, you know, and building the business and everything.

Now that Bishop lives right here, I like want to spend like this morning I didn't come out until like he's off to school.

I usually go with Elena to take him to school.

Then I go to the gym and then he gets out of school at 4:00.

So 4:30 or so.

I know he's in the house.

I'll start wrapping up and like, OK, I want to go in there and see what he's doing.

You know, it's like this situation is amazing because I can be a better dad, better husband, spend more time with everyone and and work more than having to drive an hour, having to stay away.

You know, it's made me realize like how much I missed really with the other kids.

You know, Sonny was always with me all the time when she wasn't at school.

She was always at the shop and like US doing fun stuff.

I mean, I raised her by her, by myself since she was 3.

But you know, I still miss stuff.

I still traveled.

I still, you know, they went with me a lot of stuff.

But I think Bishop, I'm like, there's just so much stuff I missed, you know, so much stuff.

And I think that's any parent, you know, parents are busy and they work.

And I think, you know, I didn't realize it until Bishop came along that like, and I think I'm in a different place in life.

You know, I think doing 30 episodes of Monster Garage a year, which is means building 30 cars a year.

And so I had a tiger by the tail.

And I think that took precedence over everything.

And, you know, kids, marriages, everything, you know, the work was always in the forefront.

And I think I've learned with Bishop is like, I just the desire.

I just want to be around him.

You know, I want to hang out with him and see what are you doing?

You know, and he's such AI think I've had girls for so long.

He's such a dude.

It's like a boy.

It's just out.

He's like trucks, monster trucks.

He's just obsessed with monster truck, gravedigger zombie, you know, all of it.

He just loves all that stuff and he's only two and he's like in the backseat.

He likes to drive in the dually because he sits up.

He's like look at that truck, look at that school bus, look at this.

Oh, honk, dad, honk at him and like, you know, it's it's such a great thing.

I can't wait.

He's got a little this old box underneath my tool boxes where I kept all my Hot Wheels when I was a kid and so I filled it.

I go to like the dollar store and buy him like a ton of cars and fill it like he always wants to come up here.

And he's super into it.

Yeah, OK.

You could take one tries to grab 20.

I'm going to talk to you about money.

What do you recall from the period you were homeless and living out of your VW Bug or VW Bus?

I'm sorry.

My girlfriend at the time who wouldn't let like I remember I got kicked out of my house or something happened with my dad where I was staying.

And I'm like, you know, I'm not going back.

I can't go back.

Like one of these non forgivable situations and I didn't have anywhere to go playing college football and I went to my had broken up with my girlfriend 'cause she cheated on me with some guy on my football team in college and I but I still drove to her house.

She was living with a girl that that I'm still really good friends with her and her brother girl Mary Fronte, and asked if I could stay there and they said no or my old girlfriend said no.

And I didn't even really think about it.

And I haven't really thought about it.

Actually.

Mary brought it up to me like she had to tell me I was homeless.

I didn't really, I've never really thought about it in the respect like, oh man, I was homeless.

You know, like you hear some like drug counselor or something.

Oh, I was homeless and living on Skid Row.

And I've never really thought about it in that respect.

I'm just like, OK, I don't have anywhere to stay, so I'm just going to sleep in my car like that.

Was it like I didn't, it didn't really, I think light all my life I still worked at the shop, the Volkswagen shop.

I still went to school.

I still played football in college and still did everything.

I didn't have any money.

I mean, I can remember trying to make it to practice and I put, I stopped and got gas and put $0.77 is all the change I had in my gas tank to make it to school.

And I don't really remember how I made it back.

I don't know.

You've had some kind of interesting money experiences over the years, one of which was a Compton.

Like Compton drug dealers would occasionally come in.

And is it true one gave you like 100 grand and five and $10 bills?

Yeah, like what's the scenario there?

That was a student named Pat.

Really good dude.

Like a Compton crib and he since turned legit.

The dudes was last time I talked to him, he was like a long haul truck driver and like really turned his life around.

But at the time, you know, he was part of that rare breed motorcycle club and like riding the wave of gangsterism and he like paid me money he owed me for building him a bike and brought it in a trash can.

A trash bag like a big hefty bag full and like 100 grand in fives and 10s is like this much money and it takes like 4 hours to count it.

It's such a pain in the ass.

Oh, what about Duane?

Duane, I just read this story, read that whole story.

That's my favorite West Coast chopper story.

Really.

Yes.

I mean, that's a hell of a story.

Yeah.

Duane, you've worked out well for you.

Yeah, it was.

It was just one of the the shop in Long Beach was because it was open to the public.

It was right at the end of the LA River where it ran into the ocean right on LA Harbor and right in downtown Long Beach.

It was just like a haven.

It was like, you know, anywhere where a river bottom meets or ends, there's always going to be.

It's like a border town.

And so just gnarly people.

And I think that whole motorcycles and like in the 90s and early 2000s, anybody that was in the motorcycles was probably semi dicey.

You know, like if you had tattoos and A and a loud Harley and like warrior hat backwards and stuff, people are like, they would go by you on the freeway and like lock their door.

Now they wave.

They think you're like a dentist.

OK, that dude was kind of in a league of a zone though, right?

I mean.

It was well, I'll give you the Cliff notes.

So this dude shows up to the shop a cab.

The the shop in Long Beach has a has a mezzanine.

My whole work area is on the mezzanine.

So I can look over the whole parking lot out the windows and like see the down the work area.

A cab pulls up and some dude gets out.

He looks like Sideshow Bob, like crazy hair short pants dirty.

And I'm like, why is this homeless guy getting out of a cab?

And turns out the guy like had flu from Vegas, got off on the wrong exit, had the sack full of cash, bought a bike for 75 grand, bought a car for 40 grand, bought, you know, 5-10 grand worth of clothes, painted helmets for him.

All for all from you.

And, and it's a one week span some he was in Vegas homeless, someone gave him 100 bucks.

He walked into the Venetian, put 100 bucks down and hit a 000 on roulette and won $400,000.

And so the first thing the dude did was get a bunch of crank and get all lazy's all wound up on like coke, then get a hooker, then fly to see his sister in Long Beach, get off on the wrong exit, stop by the shop, bought a bunch of stuff for me.

Like, it was just a seven week span and the dude blew all the money and ended up in jail and penniless in seven days.

And I think the book chronicles the whole story.

But I felt sorry for him for a long time.

Like, oh man, that poor motherfucker.

Like he lost it all.

But I'm thinking one week ago he had nothing, probably couldn't even eat.

He got like a hooker blow a custom Harley from West Coast choppers, got a bunch of clothes, got a 49 Chevy fleet line.

Probably the the Venetian comped his room.

Of course, you know why they want their money back food.

He had some black dude that was holding the sack, holding his money for him in a town car.

It was like kind of like looking at me with this funny smirk and then like, I, I, I felt sorry for him for a little bit, but I'm like, man, that dude lived it up like for one week.

How about best and worst financial decision you've made?

I think the best is just reinvesting in the business, reinvesting and everything like my, my reinvestment now is every dime I have is going to that property next door and building buildings and a showroom.

And we're going to work as soon as the showroom, they're putting doors in the next couple days and we'll start working on the parking lot and just building, investing in the business, making it a home for West Coast choppers in JJFU.

What about Walmart?

I think that was good.

I mean, isn't that an understanding?

Well, yeah, I mean, it did almost probably close to a billion dollars at retail.

Which was in nine years.

I mean, I didn't.

Make all of that.

I only made a percentage, but I was the first person to sell to Walmart, first license, first everything, first everything.

In 2000.

Nobody would sell.

Them all weren't.

So I changed the whole land landscape of that mass retail Walmart.

But the best decision is to pulling the brand out when I did and after, because now the brand is resurging and has a life of its own.

I think if you continue to just milk it until it dies, then you're going to, you know, you won't.

We wouldn't even be talking about it now.

It'd be dead.

And I think the hard decision when something's making money and successful to cut it off.

But you know, retail prices start to dip and you know when they just want to sell the cross T over and over again, Keep punching the same button.

You know, you have to realize that like, OK, once everybody that buys the West Coast top shoppers T-shirt gets one, then it's just going to shut off like a light switch.

So you have to like save some for a rainy day and like kind of regroup the brand.

You know, the brand took on a whole life in Europe and Asia Pacific market and all that stuff.

So it's like a global brand now.

But, you know, if I hadn't shut it off, I don't know if it would be that.

Yeah.

So worst financial decision?

I don't know.

The first thing that popped into my head is I bought these and sunglasses from this Chinese company.

Like we made glasses.

There are these glasses that my godfather wears, Barry, and everybody asks why we don't sell them.

Because I ordered like a whole don't ever buy sunglasses from from China.

Get them from Japan or Italy because Chinese don't give A and so like I bought a whole container.

I think it was like 20 grand worth of sunglasses, but all of them the the lens popped out and the lens was wouldn't stay in a whole container load.

Did one of your buddies who was on the payroll at the time like embezzle a bunch of money from you too?

Yeah, I changed the name in the book and like, kind of gave the Cliff Notes version of that stuff.

I don't know if that's really a financial decision.

I think, you know, having friends work for you, You know, it that stupid Robert Green book 488, Laws of Power, like has a whole chapter on envy, which is something you've probably experienced with your career.

So it says I hired a friend.

The dude stole hundreds of thousands of dollars and I love this dude.

I was friends with them, I still do.

It's taken me a while to come to grips with it and like I was really hurt by all of it.

Understandably so.

You ever get the money back?

No, when you're on this wave of success, you know it's a magic carpet ride.

You want to get all of your friends on the magic carpet.

Like, yeah, look how awesome this is the shop and TV show and all this cool we got going on.

Come on, let's do it.

You know, because you know these people, they knew you.

He knew me when I was working in my garage and helped with me building bikes in my garage.

So the progression is you want to take them.

But that Robert Green book, the chapter on envy says like, hey, if you have some friends that you grew up with and you guys came up and you're on a financial success level way different than theirs, get them the out of your life right now because they're seething with envy and they secretly hate you.

Which is a hard pill to swallow, but when they he tells you how envy manifests itself, they say, you know, it could be constant praise.

Oh man, I'm so happy for you.

You got that Walmart deal.

You got this and that.

Oh, it's awesome, dude.

I love it, you know, But that's that they secretly hate you.

And money that was taken is money that they feel like was owed to them because they were played a role in your success.

So.

What was involved with you coming to terms with it?

Reading that, that book, that thing, yeah, like I was bummed about it for five.

6-7 years, have you guys reconnected?

A little bit.

I mean, I forgive him, you know, but he's.

Never going to be the same.

Yeah, never be the same.

He's never going to work for me, you know?

I still love that dude and still like we did a lot of amazing stuff together.

You know, I am thankful though that all my family falling outs that happened in the 80s, like they were never part of any success.

Any shop, any TV, nothing.

Like I got rid of those mother.

Like I beat the train to the station because I'm sure if they it would have been you know, I did fire my sister for stealing.

She worked for me in the late 90s and stole like 600 bucks or something from the shop.

So.

Marriage.

You've been married five times, divorced and remarried since we last did the interview.

I've been married for over 30 years.

If you add them all together.

OK.

What's what's your perspective on the challenges you've had on that front?

You have to look at the common denominator.

You know, it's like blaming my dad for my any kind of experiences I've had as an adult living on my own.

So any kind of problems I've experienced in five marriages, what's the common denominator?

Who's the same person in all those all 5?

Me.

OK, what do you what do you think the issue's been?

Look, if I'm going to make something, I just finished this gun I've been working on for three years, so I've poured everything I had into it.

I made myself a world class gunsmith.

I'm a machinist, I'm a metal finisher.

I forge my own metal.

I learn the insurance and out of building high performance guns to make sure this thing functions on a world class level and I will pour every resource, gain every bit of knowledge, every possible thing I can do to make sure this gun works, functions.

I want people when they touch it and shoot it, I want it to be the best gun they've ever shot.

So the dedication that I apply to my work and my chosen tasks, I've never applied that to a marriage.

Why do you think not?

I, I think it's, it's always been secondary.

You know, shop has always been at the top of the pyramid and everything else is a distant second.

Carla doesn't count.

Carla and I were together 10 years.

I was 20 when I met her and she was 30.

And like, we have two amazing kids.

We ended our marriage with no lawyers and continue to stay friends.

She got Alzheimer's.

I take care of her like there's no, nothing negative.

I want to sprinkle on that.

But the marriages that came after that, I mean, the, the blame and the downfall of those, I think has to go squarely on me because the proof is when things get bumpy, I'm just like this, like, I don't need this bullshit.

You know, I got to work.

So anything that's happening in my personal life that's out of whack or going, I just like chose to like throw in the towel and just be done with that person's a Dick, blame it all on them and just continue working, which is a very logical point of view for someone in my position.

I'm making the right decision.

But at the end of the day, you know, I went through three marriages and like, they failed.

And I don't think until I met Elena was the first time, like, OK, I don't want this to fail.

I want this to work.

And so you have to push through all the negativity, all your past, all your current and like, you know, this is a person that's very different from me.

All of them were.

And I have to like, figure out a way to accept them for being different.

You know, it's always kind of, you know, honestly, it's always been my way or the highway.

I'm.

Not trying to be indelicate here, but one thing I love about you is you're just blunt.

So I'm just going to say it in, you know, in most of the serious relationships you've had, there's always been allegations of cheating of some sort.

To what extent is that something you struggle with?

Well, Sandy, I cheated on her.

I admitted it.

You know, the media blew it.

Wait.

I think nobody is honest about a situation like that and nobody will fess up, take the blame.

Everybody just denies everything.

And I didn't.

I stood up and take the blame.

All that did is pour gasoline on it and assume that everything was worse and then, OK, now I'm a cheater.

Now that makes every relationship after that, oh, I must be cheating again too.

So anything, you know, and I don't know, I'm pretty loyal and pretty, you know, I just think people are always going to assume that, you know.

Were you strang in the other?

Relationship at all?

Not at all.

Why do you think that narrative exists?

I think because of the media bullish, you know, when when you I do a Google search and there's 3800 articles about me cheating on America's sweetheart.

I think that might skew people's and this is even before the tabloid scandal.

The media has Roy's been really like hypersensitive to my personal life.

You know, I don't know what it is.

I don't know why, but like, you know, this struggles that Elena and I have been through.

The media just automatically assumes that I'm cheating and starts, you know, they're just going to go with that.

And then same with the Alexis.

I mean, it was the same kind of nervous.

Well, I think the whole Alexis thing was like rumors and stuff started by her mom because Alexis and I ended our marriage and didn't really have a problem with each other.

Just didn't work, you know, like I think the big thing is like I wanted to focus on my business and not on her racing career.

And I did for a while, but then it just it just didn't didn't two different.

We tried to live that life together for a little bit and it just didn't work, you know, And I think you have to like call a day.

But people are always going to say, you know, I don't know, I'm a cheater, I guess.

I think it's when, when do I do that?

I don't have any time, you know.

Hindsight's always 2020, but what do you do to course correct forward-looking?

Elaine and I have experienced some, you know, rough times and filing for divorce and fighting, but I think it's.

And what, what was the genesis of that?

I don't know, I, I think kind of bullshit, like, you know, we'll get into a petty fight and it'll blow up out of proportion.

And I think it's not really us fighting each other.

It's us, our her past and my past having a war with each other and trying to prove that like you're like this.

No, wait, you're like this.

And I think it's like we have to realize, I think we did and we have realized that like I don't want to be with anybody but her and she doesn't want to be with anybody but me.

And we have, I think both of us are have such raw scabs for relationships that and.

By the way, to interrupt momentarily because that was one of the things I was going to talk to both of you guys about today.

She, Elena, was awesome on the phone yesterday and she talked about how you guys identified with past trauma that like that was a point of connectivity.

She's been through a lot.

I can talk.

I'll comment on her perspective.

Being with Janine and her and I having Sonny and me raising Sonny and Janine's past and past career has been a blessing for me that I'm thankful for that.

I kind of has given me insight to stuff that Elena goes through.

You know how so?

Just because that whole industry is traumatic, and it was.

Like.

Adult industry and it's like it's boy, it does real, real damage.

Even it at its best, you know, women are damaged and traumatized and like, it's hard to turn the page on that stuff and begin a new life.

Like what's your attraction to that?

I mean, I don't, I don't really know anything about her.

Didn't know her from that industry.

I knew her from guns, you know, and kind of, and still today, I ignore all of it.

I don't want to see any of that stuff.

I don't want to hear any of that stuff.

I don't want, I don't want anything that she did in the past related to that stuff in my brain at all.

I want to know, I want what's right in front of me.

I want to know her, how much I love her, her as a person.

I just want to know, Elena.

And that's, and nothing that someone did years ago should be in your current relationship, you know?

Because you want to judge a person.

For who they are, you're experience, you know, I wasn't trying to find her or someone in the industry.

Actually it was the opposite because the bad such a bad relationship with Janine very short four months and we had a a daughter out of it and everything and it was just nothing good about any of it terrible.

And so I I think it was almost a deterrent more than any kind of attraction.

So let's just talk about relationships the whole days.

Great.

My mom, dad cheating.

What else?

But but honestly, like I, I think that's one of the things that's so interesting about because you are kind of.

Oh wait, are you doing the same thing as tabloids right now?

No.

No, but I mean, I think that's why it's interesting taking a deep dive kind of on your parents and your kids and like because we all are like our experiences shape kind of you know who we are.

Like, OK, the last one I'd have for you, just kind of closing out the relationship.

Topic, but I'm glad you're talking to her because it'll give you and people a chance to see what I see because she's she's awesome.

She's just like this, like 10,000 Watt light bulb and she's just magnetic and charming and funny and well spoken and everything.

And I don't think people have really ever seen or I think everybody thinks, oh, he loves her 'cause she's a porn star.

That's what he's into.

I don't really think she's been any kind of like venue to like showcase who she is.

What do you think you've learned about yourself through your relationships?

First and foremost, what I was doing before didn't work like plain and simple.

Like I think to have a business and have a shop and have the things that I have and the success and have the skills that I have takes a certain amount of dedication.

That's a 24/7 thing.

More than that.

Like you have to like you have to dive in with both feet and it's like jumping off a Cliff.

You know, you have it.

You have to do it 100% or it doesn't work on the level that I do stuff.

And it could be, you know, I've associated it with that.

Don't take too much from this world.

I can't have all this.

The shop, the skills, the products, the facilities, the knowledge and have a great relationship.

I accept that, you know, I accept that, you know, I can't do it all.

Like I'm not good at that.

I think that's what I've accepted.

I think people probably see it like I'm great at every, a lot of the stuff I do, just not marriages like, and I think it's because the attention and dedication level where I'm, you know.

OK, but can you be at peace with changing that prioritization hierarchy to make the relationship a success knowing that that might mean, you know, 90% of the time you want to spend here you're able to spend here?

Or, you know, instead of being able to spend 100% of the time here, you can only spend 90%.

Or, you know, whatever that time allocation trade off is.

Well, she does.

She'll she'll stand up for it.

She'll step up and like she'll call me if I'm out here like 536 at night, she'll be like, what the are you doing?

Get your ass in here?

Like what are you doing?

I'm like, I'm right in the middle of doing something working.

She doesn't want to hear it.

Do you think you will because the the goal is to as you were?

Yeah, have it all.

Right.

I I mean, so would you be comfortable with those professional trade-offs to make?

Well, it's balance, yeah.

You know, you got to have a balance.

So forging Damascus steel, building guns, doing tanks and fenders for bikes, being a coppersmith.

Well-being a present dad and a husband is also has to be in that same category, and I've never ever put it in that category.

You know, work has been the first and foremost in my life and everything else is a distant second.

Right.

So how do you how do you make that change?

Go in at 5:00, you know, like go in and spend time and look, I have to want that stuff.

I have to see the good in it, which I do.

And I love hanging out with her, this boy, of course.

But I have to like realize too that like, it's seat time, you know?

Meaning what?

Well, if you're going to be a race car driver, you got to drive a race car a lot.

You got to have a lot of seat time and a lot of laps and a lot of you know, when I race off road, if I pre run and run the course and everything, I'm top five every race.

If I don't do any of that stuff, I suck.

I'm at the back of the pack.

Same with a relationship.

If I'm not with them her if I'm not with her and together and doing things together and enjoying our time together, because at the end of the day, she just wants to hang out with me and I shouldn't be a Dick about it.

I should just hang out with her.

And I feel like I'm doing that.

Like I feel like our relationship is getting better because I'm giving her the time she wants and I want.

It's not, you know, and I think it's look, I don't want to be this dude that's like 56 year old and like dating strippers and lonely and like, you know, I don't want to be that.

I want to be with her.

Like she's like my dream woman and like, I don't know, makes I don't know.

I just I, I, I feel like I have to put in the effort.

That's it.

Real simple.

Yeah, which is the case for all of us.

Yeah.

And it's management, you know, it's time.

I have to schedule stuff and manage it.

And like the same schedule and management I put in with finishing projects.

I also have to finish with like, OK, we're going to go out to dinner, we're going to do this.

We're going to go to church.

We're going to, you know, I have to schedule.

That has to be part of my schedule too, which I've never done.

Never, you know, like you know.

So I know one of the areas you guys kind of bonded over were guns.

When we were here a decade ago, as you alluded to, you were kind of in your early days getting into guns.

Like where did that interest come from?

I moved to Texas.

Oh come on.

Had to be more than that though.

My dad was into guns and I've always been to guns, but it was a stifled, you know, hobby because California has such strict gun laws that I can't own anything even in like the first gun I bought in like probably late 80s, early 90s.

Like it was, I don't know, sucked, wasn't that great, but that was the only thing available.

So I think moving here and then, I don't know, it was a natural progression.

You know, you look at like, von Dutch started as a painter, pinstriper and then eventually ended up building guns, you know, And I always thought that was like kind of a extreme leap for someone that's so skilled at something else.

But now I get it.

It's like, wow, you know?

And it's, I don't know, everything outlaw in this world has become marketable and OK.

And I think guns are still something that's taboo and outlaw.

And like, people tense up just when they look at it.

You still enjoy the gun business more than the bike business.

I think so.

What?

It's just more look, I've built a lot of amazing bikes.

The shop's been in business for 37 years.

So, and we're still, the bikes are getting better still, we're still pushing, still doing cooler stuff.

But two reasons.

I've built a lot of cool bikes, but no one's ever got one in their hands and broke down and cried like they have when I've given people guns.

Grown men, you know, build a gun for a dude that his daughter died of cancer.

And I engraved it and did all the art on it and put wings on it and said, you know, here's your gun, this, this way.

She's always going to be your protector.

And the guy just like melted, you know?

And it's like it's such a more meaningful thing to people.

They're not thinking about their son, They're thinking about their grandson.

OK, When he gets it, what's he going to think about me?

How's he going to Remember Me because of this heirloom?

They don't show anybody.

They don't tell anybody.

They just get it and they put it in their safe and like, know that they have it and it's very meaningful.

Bikes, on the other hand, I don't care if they're half 1,000,000 bucks.

That's the first people sell when they need money.

It's the same as like a boat, an RV or quads or whatever bikes like boom, we need money, get rid of that, put it on eBay.

You know, and I think guns is more meaningful to people.

You know, bikes will always be my first love.

I mean, I'm a bike guy always, but the gun stuff is just it's just a different level of, you know, also too, you need a bunch of federal licenses to do it.

So it that right there keeps people from copying my.

And you've spent like a month and a half before designing like you're fabricating a single piece for a gun only for it to not work out.

Like explain how that happens.

I have a piece in there that I that will forge today that I spent 2 1/2 years on and then it didn't work.

And so we're just going to smash it and turn it back into raw material.

Most people will do stuff and they'll justify the time in as whether the piece is valid or good or not.

Oh well, I spent two years on it.

It's good.

We'll just use it.

I'm like, I don't give a how long you spent on if it sucks, it sucks, throw it in the bin.

You know, it's hard to do.

It's hard to like I I didn't give up that easy on that part.

I really like tried every way possible to like wrap my head around OK, I can fix it or this can work, I can Weld it or whatever and zero that Damascus work.

There's absolute .0000 margin for error in it.

Like if it's if it's no good, it's no good.

You just need to stop.

When we spoke in 2015, you were thinking your goal was going to be to do 100 guns and 100 rifles per year.

Still.

Is that kind of the case today?

I think we probably do 100 total, OK, probably 50 pistols, 50 rifles.

I want to do less.

What I don't know, charge more, do less, hit a higher market.

You know, I've kind of created a market in 10 years that's still doesn't exist in America.

I think with my skill set, I streaked ahead of everybody.

Well, we got a ton of resistance in the gun industry when I came into it.

There's a lot of people that, like, weren't happy that I was building guns.

They thought I was just going to like slap my name on some and like try to make money.

I don't think people factored in my skill set and my knowledge and my manufacturing knowledge to that.

Because now all those same people that like hated me are all like Jesse's the best gun builder in the world now.

You know, they've all kind of come full circle and realize like, oh, OK.

And now they're like, you know, NIT nitpicking stuff that they don't even know what it is.

Like, you know, they don't even understand like the technical knowledge and and skill that it took to make the stuff I.

Want to run through some famous people you've created for and just get what comes to mind?

Have the first one being Kid Rock.

Him and I, I just finished him a new gun and he was actually a Dick head about it.

He want I wanted to do it all black, like mirror black with gold inlay and then he know I wanted all gold like some someone gave him some crappy engraved pistol that was crappy gold and like I want it like this.

I'm like I don't really build.

I don't I'm doing that.

I think some friends have got for me for nothing for so long that they just expect stuff for nothing and he's a rock star.

So like, I sent him that gun and built it for him and it's awesome and he never even said thanks or if he liked it or anything.

Like, all right, cool, I guess.

How does that work?

I don't know, I guess if you're a rock star, you don't really need to be thankful.

I'd imagine that's going to be the end of making guns for him.

Well, if he wants, he wants, he can buy something.

I don't know.

I think it's like, you know, it's trying to keep those friends along the magic carpet ride.

You know, I built him a bike for free.

We rode across Mexico.

Now I'm going to build him guns like a Building 1 set.

That was awesome.

And he gave him the Dana White.

Like.

So I don't know if he didn't like him that much or what, but just gave him away like all right, easy come, easy go.

Dana White is another person you've built for, right?

Yeah, yeah, I just finished the bike.

Dana's cool, and Dana loves and appreciates the stuff I do.

You know, I don't know, whatever.

What about one that I was not expecting, but I read Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie back in the day?

Yeah, I built them.

A pair of pistols.

I actually he called first because his assistant is a really good friend of mine.

So he called 1st and ordered her a gun as a gift.

Well at the same time she didn't know she called and ordered him a gun as a gift.

And so they built them both and then they, I pulled it off, they got it, both of them got him.

And then I think he got both of them in the divorce or whatever, I don't know.

What about President Trump?

I built him in 2018 and like, well, you know, I'm the first person in the world to endorse Trump, right?

Well, I remember we talked about it in the other and you were a little hesitant at the time for it to to come out, but then to your credit, you subsequently contacted.

Yeah, USA they did like some article and stuff about me calling the like this is the ilk that supports Trump.

Like, you know, kind of saying that like I was the typical Trump supporter because I was like worked with my hands or whatever, but whatever.

But I built him a gun and I.

Did you ever give it to him?

Yeah, I was like, I wanted to like, give it to him, right.

But when you give a president something, it doesn't.

It's not his.

It becomes a property of the people.

So it went into the National Archives and I was real resistant.

I was like, Nah, I just, I'll just wait till he's done and I can give it to him after.

Whatever.

It's my friend.

I want to give him a gun.

And then the guys contacted the White House, said, hey, you should go look at go look at Roosevelt's museum.

Museum.

And right in the front there's a cool like English elephant gun that's all engraved and bitching that someone had built for him.

And I'm like, that's there forever.

I'm like, OK, I guess I'll give it to the National Archives so they have it.

So the gun will end up in his library, which is cool.

How did the Elon Musk one come about?

I signed an NDA so I'm not supposed to say anything, but he did a property deal with a realtor that lives like a mile from here.

And so they got him one as a gift, but it's got his name and stuff on it.

So he has to come get it himself because you can't buy it and then give it to him because that's a straw purchase.

That's a felony.

So I'm like, so I did call him and I it's going to happen soon.

I don't know.

Whatever.

If I can get it and do a video, I'll send it to you, Yeah.

That'd be cool.

What's the difference in the scale of your operation today compared to when you know West Coast Choppers was at its height?

Well the Long Beach shop was 7 buildings like a whole city block under roof and about 180 people in all the divisions running the Walmart stuff, polishing shop, paint shop, automotive shop, bike shop, parts manufacturing, all the administrative and offices and everything to make all that stuff go.

So it was like and a restaurant and it was crazy.

Now it's just 12 people, 12 people here.

And then the office distribution centers in Rotterdam, Holland has about 6 people there.

And keep it.

I, I, I'm, I had such a bad experience with a big operation and so many people and so many moving pieces that I'm so hesitant of growth.

You know, I just, I don't want to do it like I don't want to.

I don't want anything to interfere with my hands actually working.

Explain the Jeff Koons example.

Well, every interview that Jeff Koons done does.

I've watched 100 of them.

He like, well, it's not really my hands that do the work.

I'm I'm like the hand that's moving their hands.

He has this real elaborate bullish way of explaining that he has everyone do everything for him paintings.

He has like 100 people working in a studio doing like paint by numbers on all his paintings that he designs in CAD.

He does these big, you know those big balloon rabbit sculptures and stuff.

Those are made in China.

He like, casts them at a foundry, they Weld them together, they Polish them.

Then he brings it to his shop.

They they spray it with clear tinted and it's like, I just can't wrap my head.

That's great.

The sculptures are $100 million.

They sell for adoption.

So that's success, right?

But to me, I don't ever not want to be the guy that's doing it.

People are buying Jesse James bike, Jesse James Gunn.

It should be Jesse James that's making it.

You know, I think if I get to a point where I'm just like the general contractor, then I'm going to do something else.

I'll just like, shut it down and like move to Spain or something, you know, like.

Well, on that front, I kind of want to end where we started, which is actually a quote from your new book, The Art of the Craftsman.

You wrote.

For years I believed success meant accumulating wealth, but it took me years to realize that what really matters isn't how much you have, but how much you enjoy what you do.

What was involved for you with getting to that place?

I think just the self value part, you know, this, the art self value and what makes you stand up and walk and move and work and what makes you earn your dinner, You know, like who earns their dinner more?

The guy that was on a computer all day, actually, you know, sending emails and everything and like, whoo, all right, I'm gonna go in.

I'm gonna go go home now and, like, have my wife made Stew?

Or the guy that was like a diesel mechanic turning brake drums all day on heavy equipment and his filthy, dirty, tired.

His eyes are tired, his hands are tired.

He's got to like, scrub down.

Who earn their dinner more and so earning it using these things to support yourself and your family is like biblical and to like there would be days, weeks, months.

I would never Weld anything at the old shop.

You know, I didn't even work didn't even turn my machine on.

I just didn't the I was a mid level manager.

I would just, you know, worry about who's stealing toilet paper and Walmart stuff and flying back to Bentonville and doing all that stuff and TV shows.

The one blessing about my TV show is that it was hard work.

Like it's the only show I think that's ever been on TV and it's probably why people connect with it so much.

We're like, shoo.

If I was ever standing around for an episode, people were pissed.

Like they want me there working.

Get your ass to work.

We don't care what you have to say.

You need to work and Weld.

It's also too from the desire standpoint, like now I've gained this, I've become a master pistol Smith, I'm a machinist, I'm a sheet metal worker, I'm a blacksmith.

I have all these this huge toolbox of skills and knowledge.

So now it's like fun to do it and it's probably a big reason why it's hard to Get Me Out of the shop because like, man, there's rules.

I love it, you know, And like, you know, it's like a Legos, you know, it's like you get a new Lego set and you have the instructions like, oh man, this castle's cool.

You're not going to put a couple bricks together and you're like, OK, y'all, I'll get the rest next week.

No, you're like, oh man, this.

Cause every step of the process, it's getting closer and closer and you can start to visualize it.

And that's the same thing that I experienced.

I just want to, I want to do it, you know, You know, Did you?

We didn't talk about starting my own network.

Outlaw TV.

Yeah, and I'm changing the name to Pay Up Sucker because there's already some Outlaw TV on the App Store, so they wouldn't approve it.

So I'm just like, let's just do a Pay Up Sucker.

Yeah, it's good.

We've been filming.

It's a total different experience.

There's been a big lull because developing the app and getting the app approved.

I went to Discovery History, A&E, PBS, and a couple of documentaries I did on DVD.

I've got all of it back, everything but Monster Garage, all the cool documentaries, everything from Discovery History Channel.

I bought it all back.

So it's all going on the app.

What would they want for Monster Garage?

Well, they're already putting it on YouTube.

OK.

Fremantle is so it's like I don't want, I want people to go there and see stuff that they they don't normally see.

But we started, I did that whole series, American Craftsman in 2011 and they for History Channel, they turned it down and it was kind of meeting Craftsman and then learning the discipline and immersing myself in it and applying it to what I do.

History kicked it back and said, oh, can can you refilm it but have like a sidekick or someone that you could yell at There ain't a thing no so I retained ownership of it.

So we started doing that and we now it's taken on a bigger, it's a bigger thought, a bigger show, a bigger and kind of goes to that self value.

Sorry.

And we went like the first episode, I went and got my underwater surfer, underwater welding, saturation diving.

That's the only welding I've never done and I didn't know how to do.

And it was like hard, like it took, you know, took a couple tries and it's just gnarly.

I'm claustrophobic and being 60 feet down and trying to hang on and Weld.

So that was cool.

And then that's the welding episode.

So the first part is my end of my journey with welding, learning that and getting certified in that.

And then I went to a high school and taught kids how to TIG Weld.

So that's the beginning of their journey.

And so the next episode I went to Huntsville Prison, to the walls unit, to death row, and they have a full metal shop, automotive repair, they have a whole cotton facility where they make all their uniforms, spend their own cotton, make the uniforms for state troopers and DPS officers.

They make all the leather working, they do the holsters and everything.

And so life changing experience.

I went in there expecting one thing, but the core values, like we just spoke about the work ethic.

So these guys are never getting out.

They're in there forever life.

These dudes are just as excited about every day as I am.

So if you can, it's such a negative place.

So every other Thursday, a steam whistle blows and the whole place goes into lockdown.

And then they bring a guy in from a holding facility 20 miles away, bring him in, take him to the death chamber, strap him down, lethal injection.

45 minutes later, they call it, he's dead.

The window goes or the whistle goes off again and everybody goes back to work.

And the death facility is like from here to where this wood shop is above here.

OK, so you're going to with that going on every week right next to you and you're stoked and you're happy and you're working.

I don't think of a better example of like what this work and work ethic does for people, 'cause this dude's never getting.

There's a couple dudes there that are, one guy's been there since 1980.

He's a woodworker and a dude stoked.

He's making beds and toy cars and and cabinets for people and like doing all this stuff and just they work 12 hour shifts seven days a week.

They hate Sundays because they don't work and they just can't wait to get in it.

So tell me working with your hands isn't valuable because these are thrown away people, murderers, people hate them.

They ruined people's families and they know it and they know that they're on the redemption end of it.

Welding.

Making outfitting vans, prison vans with the cages and AC units and stuff.

And it it just it and this connection level on it.

And I known the guy, main dude at Huntsville for about 15 years and he's tried to get me to film there.

I almost did it for Discovery.

I'm so glad that I did it for myself, for my network.

But I knew about this because in, I think it was 2004, I went to Folsom Prison just 'cause it was Folsom, Johnny Cash.

And we built a whole 69 Chevy low rider inside the prison with prison workers.

We did an episode of Monster Garage in Folsom Prison and like dragged the ass in the yard and threw sparks like the first and last time that'll ever happened.

But really good dudes, all the convicts that worked on the car.

But I met, I went they have for California school district.

They make all the lockers, desks, all the steel products, they make them inside there and all the license plates.

So I met this little horn rimmed black guy, soft spoken.

He's the shop foreman, amazing welder, welded some stuff with him, hung out with him for half a day.

And then I later on like what did that?

When's that guy get out?

Never.

What did he do?

And it was like gnarly stuff they couldn't tell me about but like multiple counts of like rape and sexual battery and all this stuff.

So here's the juxtaposition.

I met the student, connected with him.

Like we have the same Craftsman hands, we can Weld, we speak the same language.

Nice dude, gentle Craftsman.

Then find out later after the fact.

Wait, I'm supposed to hate this guy?

I'm supposed this guy's not I'm not supposed to like this guy, supposed to despise him, He should die.

So I did the show and wanted to It's two-part episode, 2 episodes.

So the first part we go in and we meet everybody the same way, show their skills, talk about little bit about their personal life and everything.

Then the next episode we tell everybody, they tell you what they did and what happened and have their thing.

So it's look, I'm a death penalty guy, like, hey, there's some people that are just broken.

You kill a kid or harm a kid or, you know, woman or something like that, boom, put them down.

It's like a rabid dog.

But stand this close to someone and work with them and tell them that to their face.

You know, family members can, but as a human and a human level, you know, I'm not like Werner Herzog where I'm like trying to say, oh, the death penalty's bad and like this is what happens and apply a bunch of guilt to it.

No, the overall story that I built into the episode is, look, if we teach skills, work ethic, the hands, that's what it's got to be about.

If we teach more kids to work and have skills and something that they're depended on for their self value and their livelihood and all that stuff, maybe a percentage of them wouldn't get in trouble because every one of these is like drugs running from the cops because of drugs.

Like also note, don't run from the cops in Texas because you're going to get 20 years like with all of them, no matter you know.

But it it's repurposing.

I think I can send you some clips of the show or I'll send you a file to watch on.

Yeah, I think you would dig it because it's nobody's allowed to go in Huntsville and film.

They had a 24 there was trying to film before we are and they kicked them out and everything about that place is negative death penalty.

They don't pay these people.

It's slave labor.

They're killing people.

Everything about it is negative.

So to do ATV show there and make it positive and show the pot.

Look at these dudes, man.

They're like they've repurposed themselves as a solid individual and it it like I as my own network and being able to call the shots and do what I want to do.

That's what I want to do.

I want to like explain craftsmanship and what all this stuff that I preach all the time on a bigger level, you know, so.

You happy?

Yeah, life's good.

I'm I, I dig it.

Like I think, I think the brand West Coast Choppers is becoming really successful again, which I'm apprehensive about because it's like, hey, I've been there before a couple times.

And so to have it like the number one brand now at a bunch of retailers across American stuff, I think it like, I don't think it's because of me.

I think probably people that are buying West Coast chopper shirts.

And it's like it's such a huge, all these young kids, all these like hip hop artists, Pro Football players, Travis Scott, you know, all these people wearing the brand.

It's very flattering.

It's like, you know, my ego says like, that's right, I rule.

But then in reality, they probably just like the logo and stuff or like like the style of the clothes.

But it I think it's a valid validation, I think to a certain aspect, but I don't know, it's it's a trip like I did not expected.

You know, we the brand as well globally, Europe, it does well Asia Pacific market, we do really well in Slavic countries and, and all over the place.

But here it's always kind of, you know, it kind of ran its course and then I pulled it out of Walmart and we, we sell online sales and everything, but have it doing so well in a retail space.

It's like, I don't know, it's kind of cool.

Like, I guess I don't know, maybe it just means I'm getting old that I I stuck it out long enough for it to come around again, you know?

Well, both could be true.

Yes.

Thanks for doing this.

Yep, thanks for listening to this week's podcast.

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