I often say to people, when they realize they're in big trouble, they're heading for hell, they believe that Jesus died on the cross.

I say to them what does that mean for you?

Now, that happened 2,000 years ago.

He died on the cross for our sins.

What does that mean?

How can it help you in your dilemma?

You're under God's wrath, heading for hell, and they don't know.

And yet he's on the cross in front of them at the church, the Catholic church.

I don't know, and he's on the cross in front of him at the Catholic church.

I'm doing a cross here and they just don't understand it.

And I said well, I want you to listen very carefully because this is going to open the eyes of your understanding.

Understanding the fact that he died for our sins so we could be released from God's wrath by his righteousness is imputed to us, and it's just.

Catholics are such fertile ground.

You know, I've spoken to hundreds, if not thousands, of Catholics over the years and I've learned when it comes to these issues.

When someone says I'm a room Catholic, I've learned to go deaf.

I deliberately do it.

I learned to go deaf, mark, and by that I mean I do not want to get drawn into an argument with them over their church doctrine, because they've got scriptures.

They can, like we're saying, they can take one text out and say, oh, peter's the Pope, mary's this, she's exalted, she's the mother of God.

I don't want to go in those avenues.

I want to take them through the gospel, because the gospel is the power of God to salvation, which is huge for me because it means I don't have to be eloquent when it comes to Catholic church doctrine and know it inside out and how to refute it, because I'm not that way inclined.

All I have to do is faithfully give the gospel and leave it up to God.

Yesterday, friends, we were having an executive meeting here at Living Waters in our extremely posh boardroom when we went off on a rabbit trail into just insane idiocy and I said, guys, imagine how crazy it would be if these things are recorded and the public could hear it.

And Oscar goes uh, that's called the living waters.

It's 350 podcasts later.

Yeah.

Yeah, but I said that like in all seriousness and then you were like, and then it dawned on me, I'm like oh, that's exactly what we do.

Yeah, by the way, friends, I do have to interject to this, because once in a while we do get an email from somebody who says oh, this banter, I don't like the banter, wasting time man.

That's exactly how the emails are read.

Yeah, probably from my kids.

No, that was identical.

So I do have something to say for those of you that have not yet realized this and I just discovered it recently that have not yet realized this, and I just discovered it recently there is something brilliant called the fast forward button that you can simply press and you don't have to hear the idiocy of Ray, Oscar and Mark.

Can you fast forward an hour?

Skip the whole thing.

So friends know that there's a solution to this.

You can skip us.

You know we do insane idiocy for 10 minutes or so.

Just fast forward.

We should have a little mark where the banter ends that people can go forward.

That's a little mark.

Yes.

I'm 6'2" right, well, I'm not a little mark In a 48-minute episode, that's at 47 minutes.

But seriously though, look, friends, we've had this in-house discussion.

We've said, oh, should we stop the banter?

People plead with us not to.

So don't look only out.

Don't look only out.

Don't only look out for your own interests, Philippians 2, but also for the interests of others, your brethren, who want the banter.

If you don't want it, fast forward.

Did you just use Scripture to justify banter?

Did I do what?

Use Scripture to justify banter?

Yes, scripture to just justify banter, absolutely, it's biblical For those that want to be edified, because people can't press a button that says create banter.

Although, wait a minute.

I guess ChatGBT could create banter.

We actually do have a version that removes the banter, if you want that.

It goes down to like eight minutes.

That is, oh, the highlights Tuesday.

Yeah, so what we did at the beginning of the year?

so it just takes easy out.

Exactly.

We have two episodes that release.

We've got the full, you know 50 minute to an hour long episode, and then we've got a condensed version which is usually about 12 to 14 minutes out.

Basically no easy in it lonely and on top of that, uh, the living waters podcast youtube channel also has sometimes two-minute snippets, sometimes eight-minute snippets.

It's just condensed, rich theology.

It's just the cream, so sometimes it's down to 30 seconds.

Sometimes it's four seconds.

Four seconds yeah.

Yeah, so yeah, you can do all that, friends.

But seriously I mean, okay, let's try this, let's try to go without insanity right now.

See how long we can go.

We Okay let's try this, let's try to go without insanity right now, see how long we can go.

We're going to start again.

Hi friends, thanks for joining us for the Living Waters podcast.

My name is EZ, that's so calm Actually, I kind of liked it, that was really nice.

It lasted two seconds, that was really nice.

That would be the death of me, God forbid yeah.

By the way.

Um, I'm hurt and offended.

That you did not notice, is it?

No?

No, we see it, no, no, we see it, no, no, that I am now iron man.

You see it.

Wait, what is that?

You see it, do you?

have a pacemaker.

I'm now iron.

Did you get your?

pacemaker.

I wanted to get it moved to the center but they wouldn't do it.

No, it's a heart monitor thing oh, I thought you're.

You ironed your shirt no Iron man.

Oh yeah, Is it like incision.

How does it work?

Is it like a suction cup?

No, it's just tape or whatever.

So I thought it had nothing to do with your heart.

What.

Whatever you're going through.

No, no, no, they're just the doctor.

Yeah, because, friends, for these they don't know a heart blockage, but they did some tests and realized it was something else.

But they want to do a few more tests, just to see it was a brain blockage Easy.

I just want to say, if you have any problems during the podcast, both Oscar and Ray will give you mouth to mouth.

I will watch you like Caltrans.

Mark, please, who's going first?

How can I unsee that?

The second he falls, I'm going to look over and go call it.

I'm dead.

No, do not.

He still leaves.

If that becomes necessary, let me go be with the Lord.

Do not give me mouth to mouth, please.

So yeah, I'm Iron man and all that good stuff.

Okay, friends, listen, I have some rankings for you.

We've told you before that the Living Waters podcast is one of the top podcasts in the world.

That's not hyperbole, it's true.

We do get rankings and I'm going to start giving some shout-outs.

At number nine in Albania.

We're number nine in Albania.

We're huge in Albania.

Number eight in the Philippines, Number four in Kenya and number one guess where Lebanon.

Lebanon.

They don't have internet there though right.

My people.

They don't have internet, they have a some guy pedals a bike and that generates internet.

That's how they do it.

All 80s Zwaynes are listening over there.

Yeah, all my Zwayne peeps.

So shout out to Albania, philippines, kenya and Lebanon.

Number one.

Yeah, number one and it held too.

Yeah, so these are all recent and yeah, but I'll be giving shout-outs because we get in the top 10 all around the world all the time.

So thank you guys for listening.

Do they speak English?

No, they not speak English.

No people.

I guess they must have heard there's a Lebanese guy on here, so that's probably why we're number one in Lebanon.

But thank you, friends, and habibis and shawarma and lalalalalala, I love you.

All right, what now?

What's the AFC?

What's it called?

They're going to track us now, you said whatever.

that thing is called FCC, whatever.

All right, friends, time for a cool, classy comment.

The subject line says hello from an edified listener Ethanol underscore zero three.

Hey friends, and that's how they wrote it.

Hey friends, I just wanted to express my gratitude for the work you guys do for the Lord through this podcast.

I'm edified daily as a driver around the Houston area for my day job.

Y'all's jokes, commentary and banter, provide me laughs.

Day job Y'all's jokes, commentary and banter provide me laughs, and your quotes, books, recordings and wisdom convict and move me to continue boldly to glorify the Lord in everything I do.

May God be glorified always through this ministry you guys so excellently run and may he continue to bless you and all those who love and support what you do.

All right, ethanol underscore zero three.

I'm sure that's not a real name Petrol.

Yeah, but thank you and see guys there.

It is A living example.

Someone who appreciates the banter and now a radically revolutionary resource.

This podcast is brought to you by Four Question Survey Ray.

We're having a meeting about that today.

We are Tell us about the four question survey.

It's a four question survey.

Thank you, ray, not five.

Four.

It's questions.

What's it about, Ray?

It's to help.

I remember I've moved on.

It's true.

It's true, it's a little booklet with four questions in it.

What are the questions?

What are the?

questions.

What are the?

Questions you can tell when he's straining in his brain.

How about just?

one of the questions.

Yeah, do you think there's life after death?

Yeah.

Are you a good person?

There you go.

Have you kept the Ten Commandments?

And why did Jesus die on the cross?

It gives you a structure to witness in and it's a survey and it's very exciting, yeah, and um what else in that?

regard.

Yeah, so what'd you say?

I said, quite the salesperson, we're excited about it.

Uh, I've noticed hey let me start again, friends yes, tell us more, right what?

are we doing with it?

Oscar, maybe you should tell people.

yeah, well, I'll just off.

For those of you who are not familiar with using surveys in the context of evangelism, I can tell you personally that I've seen this to be very successful.

Those who are maybe slightly more introverted, or either or new in the concept of sharing the gospel out on the streets, a survey is a really great resource because it's a really non-evasive approach.

You walk up to somebody I've seen you do this, Mark, with surveys regarding abortion you walk up to somebody, let's say on a college campus, and you just say simply, would you like to participate in this survey?

People are likely to say yes, and then you walk them through these four questions and it leads into a proclamation of the gospel.

So we've seen it to be very successful.

I know Ray's super excited, even though he can't remember about this, and we're excited to see it hit college campuses because I think it's a really fun, easy way to get into these kind of conversations.

Yeah, absolutely yeah.

And when you walk up to someone you say hey, I just have a quick four-question survey, it'll just take a minute or two.

You know we mind doing that.

And then you transition.

Why did you point at me and smile, ray, can't help it.

A demeaning smile.

Were you going to say something?

No, oh good, no, just no, no, ah, nigh, yeah, all right, friends.

Oh, make sure to check it all out.

Don't forget the Living Waters mug, the Evidence Study Bible, living Waters TV, living Waters and podcast YouTube channel.

Yeah, we talked about that already.

We had an amazing academy.

Oh, you forgot, didn't you?

I didn't yeah.

You remembered what was it?

I just well, I filmed it and just put a little thing from behind the scenes for the Living Waters TV up there.

Or it goes up today or tomorrow, but what a great academy.

It was great.

Yeah, those of you that don't know, Oscar the Explainer, Great minds.

Yeah, the academy is a special three, four day now event where we have people come from all over the country different parts of the world as well and we do classroom training and evangelism and then we take them out on the streets and give them a tour of Living Waters one from lebanon, because they're all watching the podcast or listening to the podcast right, they're too busy.

So there you have it, friends.

Uh, so make sure to check all that stuff out at livingwaterscom.

Sorry, oh, oscar, all right, I fell asleep lukewarm backslider.

I I apologize.

Yeah, All right friends, Today we are asking a very important you forgot what.

You forgot?

Yeah, it's happening.

I've been hanging out with Ray too much.

We're asking a very important question.

Was Peter the first Pope?

No.

By the way, it's Petro Petra in different languages, peter the first pope.

Yeah, ray, what's the answer?

No.

Thank you for joining us, friends.

We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters podcast.

All right, this is there goes all our Catholic listeners.

Yeah, I know, and again, I already hear you guys hate.

Catholics.

You hate Catholic anti-Catholic bashing.

We love Catholics.

We really do Can you hold.

We love Mark, we love sharing the gospel with Catholics because we care about them Absolutely.

I was a Catholic, mark was a Catholic, oscar wanted to be a Catholic.

Scotty was a Catholic choir boy.

Half our ministry was Catholic.

Scotty was a Catholic choir boy.

Yes'm a Catholic.

Half our ministry was Catholic.

Scotty was a Catholic choir boy.

Yes, that's true, ray.

Your aunt was dating a Catholic priest with one leg.

No, she had two legs.

Was she the bank?

robber.

It was another, it was the bank robber.

She robbed two banks.

My friend's Catholic Four banks Sorry forgive me, Four banks.

She robbed Four banks.

She got two years.

Don't undercut her Ray Four banks.

So, friends, look, we do want to be serious and say we absolutely love Catholics.

Again, I was Catholic, mark was Catholic.

I have a bunch of family members that are Catholic.

I aspired to be a priest.

My dad almost became a priest.

Why not a pope?

Well, yeah, rapping Arab Pope that would have been me, but yeah, so we love our Catholic friends and we want to speak truth.

Yeah, there was something called the Inquisition back in the day that our Catholic friends did, so I think you know I love Paul's.

Am I your enemy?

Because I tell you the truth, yeah, and that sums up the whole thing.

When someone says you're Catholic, but I'm saying no, I'm not your enemy, I just want to tell you the truth, and that sums up the whole thing.

When someone says you're Catholic bashing, no, I'm not your enemy, I just want to tell you the truth, and we speak the truth in love and what we want to see is Catholics in heaven.

So they must be born again and not be born again when they've got their own interpretation of the new birth and we want to tell them no, it's not what you think it is.

It's not being baptized as a baby, sprinkled as a baby.

It's not being baptized as a baby Sprinkled as a baby.

You've got to repent and trust in Christ and then you'll be born again, be given a new heart, new desires, with the knowledge you've passed from death to life.

Yeah, and this subject is really important and we're tackling it for a reason because there are implications that are connected to implying that the Pope is the head of the Church, the vicar of Christ on earth, who can speak what's called ex cathedra, which means from the chair, infallibly when he does that at certain times, and so there are a lot of ramifications associated with it and we need to jump into it, oscar.

I interrupted you, ray.

I interrupted you, ray, I interrupted you.

I think it's important to define what the church is.

The pope is the head of the Catholic church we can see there, but he's not the head of the church which is the true church of believers, those who trust in Christ, and Catholics would contend that is what the Catholic church is and the Pope is the head of it.

It's the only true church, though of course they've made some concessions in saying we are now what are called separated brethren, even though in the Council of Trent they said a lot of stuff about us being anathema, and that has not been retracted.

But the reason why we address issues like this and why we've discussed Catholicism is because the gospel is at stake Absolutely.

And while there are a lot of things that we can agree on in terms of the historicity of Christianity and some of the essential doctrines, especially as it deals with the character of God, the deity of Christ, the triunity of God and so forth, but there are gospel issues when it comes to especially the doctrine of soteriology, in terms of how is one saved, and I believe the Catholic Church has a different gospel.

So right, mark, do you agree on that?

100%.

The uh, the catholic church has always taught grace, from the beginning.

They've always taught faith, uh, they've always taught that, uh, scripture is important.

What that?

What they haven't done is they never said that it was grace alone, faith alone, uh, christ alone to the glory of god alone, using scripture alone.

And this is what the protestant reformation did.

It came along, said, no, you're about it, but I don't think it means what you think it means.

And so we returned back to Scripture and it's whatever Scripture has to say.

Excuse me, so, yeah, absolutely.

And there's just some overlapping and there's watering down and there becomes just a confuddled mess trying to understand.

It's like talking to a Mormon.

Oftentimes, when you start talking about grace and repentance and Jesus, it's like they're not going to disagree with you.

But a lot of times these words have different meaning.

So if I were to ask a Catholic hey, when you hear the word grace, what does that mean?

And they may come along and they say well, it's unmerited favor, great Unmerited favor, though, to the infinitely ill deserving.

It's like the Mormon.

You know, you're saved by grace after all that you can do.

And I rarely come across a Catholic and that's kind of my longing right To come across a Catholic who really knows their material, who really knows what they're talking about.

It's very rare and far and few between.

Yeah, and I think a big issue that we deal with when it comes to the doctrine of salvation is imputed versus infused righteousness whereas a Catholic church would have the view of infused righteousness.

You get a little bit of the righteousness of Christ and then you actually grow in that grace towards salvation, whereas we believe in imputed righteousness.

That righteousness of Christ was totally imputed to our account and we're clothed in it.

He became sin for us so we might become the righteousness of God in Him, and so that's really key and important to remember.

And so that's where the big distinction comes in there.

And let me just say too that I want to be clear that we are not saying that there are no genuinely born-again saved Christians in the Catholic Church, but that would be in spite of the Catholic Church.

Not because of it.

Not because of it, and that there are some that, like you said, mark, aren't aware of some of these doctrines.

If you tell them, why are you saved?

Jesus died for me and rose again, right, because they have the true God.

They believe in the triune God, they believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ, they believe in the deed of Christ, they believe in some of those other different essentials, a virgin birth and so forth but it's that doctrine of salvation.

So there are some that don't know.

There are some that say no, I don't bow down before marrying statues.

I've always felt weird about that, but I'm a part.

They just don't know.

But they could be genuinely born again.

So that's important to remember.

I'm glad you said that, yeah, and then also, what we maintain is that the church has always been around.

It's not like the church died.

The gates of hell will never prevail against it.

There have always been genuine believers.

There's always been that remnant and you could see it.

It wasn't just at the Reformation that people were beginning to protest the Catholic Church.

It happened at different stages throughout.

I believe basically at the time of Constantine, when the church became the national religion, that things began to alter there, and a lot of it has to do, I believe, both in the East and the West, with the cultures.

If you see a lot of the practices that are in there, whether it's praying to the saints or it's other different forms, you can draw some correlations to the cultural influences of the religions of that time.

That was a good transition into answering the question who was the first Pope?

And I love what you guys did.

I love you.

I don't know if you guys know this or not, but we don't plan these conversations very much, but that was great.

We started with, foundationally, what is the gospel and how is it applied to the difference between Catholicism and Christianity?

Building a foundation.

And now you know who was the first Pope and the real question is like was Peter really the first Pope?

I believe strongly that what happens in the Catholic church is that they apply today's structure into yesterday's church, and so the idea of a singular, authoritative papacy rooted in Peter is historically inaccurate.

It's sort of like revisionist history to go back and claim that Peter was the first Pope.

And let me make an argument as to why the early church, as a summary and I borrow a lot from church history in plain language, the early church was collegial, not hierarchical.

In other words, what ended up happening is, without a doubt, the early church probably looked more like a presbytery that we would see today than it does like a non-denominational church, in the sense that if you looked at Asia Minor, rome, alexandria what we had is a collection of churches and an established bishop, and that established bishop would help lead those church leaders along the way and over time, what ended up happening is Rome gained in power.

So did the bishop that sat in Rome would gain not so much power but influence, and we have a lot of examples of like.

Clement historically is now considered an early Pope, but we have writings from Clement in which he himself does not claim to have any authority over the church and, as a matter of fact, this is one of the biggest surprises.

There's quite a bit of Roman Catholic historians that argue against this revisionist history.

Even the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia admits this is a quote.

In this early period, bishops and priests were synonymous.

Authority belonged to a college of Presbyterian bishops.

In other words, authority didn't belong to the bishop who was in Rome.

Authority belonged to these collection of bishops that oversaw churches in different parts of the world, and so, in other words, like we don't historically see a singular Pope figure in the way that we understand it today in those first 300 to 350 years of church history.

Yeah, no, that's a good point to make, oscar, and I think there's so much that people just take you know at face value.

And, ray, one of the things you do and I love that when you're sharing the gospel is you challenge people to Look at the word Like one of the things you'll often say, like when it comes to purgatory as an example.

That's not in the Bible right.

Yeah, they accept that 99% of the time.

People say it's not so, it's not Our problem when it comes to witnessing to Catholics or sharing the gospel of Catholics is that they exalt tradition above the word of God, like the Pharisees did.

Jesus said by your tradition you have made void the word of God.

So we can feel hogtied if they don't believe anything the Bible says.

And that's where we've got to go back and trust the power of the gospel and trust the fact that salvation is of the Lord.

So when someone says I don't believe the Bible, I just go to the gospel and realize the gospel is the power of God to salvation.

And when they hear the gospel, god opens the eyes of their understanding and he opens their eyes to his word and the authority of his word, and that's my strong consolation.

Yeah, yeah, and you know, mark, we're touching on this in part because there's been a lot of sort of shock that the new pope of the Catholic Church hails from the United States.

This has never happened.

Yeah, chicago, and they make him.

He's a White Sox.

Yeah, in fact Ben Shapiro.

When he had met him, white robe as well, he gave him a signed baseball from I think it was the World Series, signed by all the players.

But speaking of Ben Shapiro who met the Pope from Chicago, both of them he said even for Catholics Peter's primacy is debated, but biblically the church was built on Christ.

This is Ben Shapiro, shapiro's famous yes, Shapiro, who's?

surrounded with Catholics and he himself, obviously, is Jewish.

Wow, william Tyndale, the Bible translator.

He said I defy the Pope and all his laws.

If God spares my life, I will cause a boy that drives the plow to know more of the scriptures than he does.

Wow, we have to remember he died for that, didn't he?

He did Boy, did he ever?

Well, just once, yeah.

Thanks, no, he actually died twice.

Oh, he probably did.

He died in Christ.

And then physically, but then not spiritually.

Yeah right, what I like about this is the best apologetic is Scripture.

So when talking to a Catholic or a Mormon or somebody who believes in reincarnation, utilizing Scripture is so important because it's the Word of God that is living and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, because it's the word of God that is living and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword.

So William Tyndale is saying, and through his mission to put the text into the common hand, people's life, and even utilizing words that we use today, because of William Tyndale, not only inside the English Bible but inside of the dictionary itself, that he made the Bible.

God used him to make the Bible accessible to everybody today.

So therefore, there's no question whether or not Jesus said something or intent or anything.

It may be, because we can go utilizing the original language and, through great commentaries, understanding culture, customs and tradition, understand what the text originally said.

What did the original author mean when he wrote to the original audience?

And that's the beautiful thing with Scripture alone, because it is our final authority.

Rc Sproul he said the rock of Matthew 16 is the confession that Jesus is the Christ, not Peter himself.

So Peter was important, but he wasn't preeminent.

As MacArthur said, we don't downgrade Peter for the role that he had.

And same thing with Mary.

Mary, she was blessed among women, right, I mean, she bore the Messiah.

We just don't venerate, we don't bow down, we don't pray too.

It's not necessary to do those things, and when we interpret Scripture using Scripture, if you were to do that at face value, you're going to come to this same conclusion.

It's only through the teaching of the Catholic Church, through tradition, through some sort of written liturgy that might be out there, that you're going to come to the conclusion that Peter is a pope, but he never himself would have said that he was the pope, ever, not once.

Yeah, big time.

And I think it's important to go back to, like we said, scripture.

So where does the Catholic Church get this?

And it would be Matthew 16, where there was a great confession by Peter, where Jesus said in verse 15, and he said to him but who do you say that I am?

So I there was a great confession by Peter, where Jesus said in verse 15, and he said to him but who do you say that I am, simon?

Peter answered and said you are the Christ, the son of the living God.

Jesus answered and said to him blessed are you, simon Barjona, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father, who is in heaven.

And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

And it goes on from there.

And so I think you know, and he says and I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.

Whatever you loose on earth will be loose in heaven, and I think it's important to really look at this carefully.

You know, very reputable Christian historians and theologians have, I think, made it clear that Jesus was not saying to Peter that Peter is the rock that Jesus is building his church on.

Peter Piper put it well.

He said so.

My understanding is that the bedrock on which the church is built is the bedrock of Jesus' teaching, with the reality of Jesus himself at the center.

He has it that binding and loosing extends to all believers in that regard, and so I think that's important.

There's the confession that Jesus is the son of the living God, that Christ is the foundation of the church.

It's a hard thing to explain.

If you've got someone who's a Catholic, there's enough rope in Scripture for him to hang himself there he is.

He's the rock.

It's built on him.

It's the end Not realizing that when someone confesses that Jesus is Christ, the Son of the Living God, jesus said blessed are you, peter, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father, who's in heaven.

That's the revelation of Jesus being the Christ that causes the new birth and you become part of the church and that's the rock upon which we're built.

Amen, on that note, ray, this is why church history is so important, because we open our eyes and read the scripture and take into account what we experience today and then we read into Scripture what we believe to be true.

And looking at church history helps us better understand Scripture from outside of our cultural context.

That's the important of church history.

And going back to kind of what I was saying earlier, if you think about it again, I use the word bishop and pope.

Those are actually throughout most of church history, yeah, most of church history, 15, 1600 years.

Throughout most of church history, yeah, most of church history.

15, 1600 years, pope and Bishop were interchangeable.

Your local church had, your local group of churches had a Bishop.

You mean Bishop and elder were interchangeable.

And Pope, yeah.

So you had a Bishop that overseed a collection of churches and often, as a form of respect, you'd call him father, which is what Pope means.

Pope is a translated word for father.

It was a sign of respect, and so you had powerful bishops slash fathers in Alexandria, in Antioch, in Jerusalem, in Carthage, in Constantinople.

What timeline was that and this is post.

Well, yeah, it was first three, 400 years.

You had these different leaders of churches, right, and the Roman Pope slash Bishop was never considered a higher authority.

And, as a matter of fact, one of the biggest arguments historically against this idea that, well, they were chief among many bishops is the reality that the Roman Pope, which is what they called him at the time, wasn't even invited or participated in many, if not all, of the ecumenical councils.

I mean, think about it, if the Roman Pope was who they say he was, out of seven ecumenical councils, the Pope convened zero of them.

The Pope wasn't even counseled for the council of Nicaea in 325.

The Pope wasn't even invited to Constantinople I in 381.

Moving forward, in Constantinople II, which was in 553, the Pope, the Roman Pope, opposed the Council.

He issued an edict forbidding the Council and the emperors, and the council ignored the Pope of Rome, imprisoned him and exiled his advisors, removing his name from official documents.

And so, in other words, this idea of, like the Pope, having authority throughout the early church man historically just shows you he was the Roman Pope, was just one of many bishops and often wasn't even counseled for these really important theological discussions.

He had no authority over all of these conversations that were happening.

And here's sorry, go ahead Setting aside scripture, which is a terrible thing to say, but historically, who was the first Pope?

historically.

Yeah well, that's a difficult discussion because again there's revisionist history involved.

I would say what many people say is like the papal infallibility actually wasn't developed until 1870, which is Vatican I and think about that 1870.

The United States of America is older than the papal of infallibility doctrine, so it's a relatively new way of looking at it and what they end up doing.

When they developed the papal of infallibility, they went back and started revising their historical view going well, if the Pope is infallible, then maybe he was the Pope then and maybe he and they basically traced it all the way back to Peter.

And there's even here's the weird thing about the papal of infallibility in 1870 is there was a lot of dissenters.

Catholic priests and historians themselves look back at Vatican I and say we got it wrong, we overcorrected.

I heard one person put it this way.

What ended up, to summarize what happened over history, is a lot like what happens with the president, if you think about the president's power and authority today.

Over the last 250 years, the president of the United States has continually gained more and more and more power.

The founding fathers never intended the president of the United States to have the kind of power and authority that he has in our country, but this naturally happens over any government.

Any source of authority is that one who has authority slowly gains more authority, and so what this person said was that's essentially what happened with the Roman bishop is that over time, he continued to acquire authority until 1870, when they declared him the infallible folk that we know today.

And again, you have to remember when Rome became the center of the quote unquote Christian world.

That had massive influence in terms of impacting the authority and preeminence of the Bishop of Rome.

But let me just say that it's so important to remember that we can't just go on a proof text without it being in the context of not just its immediate surroundings but also in the context of the broader scope of Scripture.

You know I often talk to people about this and you know, for example, I mean when you look at Acts 15, which was the first believed to be the first church council in Jerusalem, when they were talking about the Gentiles coming into the church, if you really read the text carefully, james, who was really the leader in Jerusalem, was clearly preeminent among the apostles and Peter was there, but James was the one who was really taking charge there.

So that's important to remember.

But then also again, taking scriptures out of context.

I've shared this before, but a lot of times when I'm talking to cultists and they'll take a scripture out of context and they'll use it as a proof text, I'll throw things out to them.

For example, when I talk to people from the International Church of Christ, I'll say to them.

Hey, so just real quick, I just wanted to ask you what happens if someone becomes a disciple?

They get baptized, but then they don't have a chance to take communion before they die.

Man, that's crazy.

Obviously they're not going to go to heaven, they go.

Huh, what are you talking about?

Oh well, jesus said if you don't eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you.

Oh no, no, well, you know what he's meaning.

Is you know whatever?

And then I'll say oh well, man, what happens to your women?

Like, if they, you know, they become disciples, they get baptized, but they just like they go.

Oh, first, timothy says she shall be saved through childbearing.

Oh no, you know.

Oh well, man, what like.

I mean, this guy's a funny talker.

But so, like you must have a lot of relatives that, like you know, maybe didn't get to heaven because you know, and get to heaven because you weren't baptized.

For them, what?

do you mean?

Oh, and 1 Corinthians talks about being baptized for the dead.

Oh no, what does this mean?

We need a whole other episode of just easy arguing with himself.

But I love that because again they'll take one verse you shall be saved through baptism.

Oh, that's exactly what they're doing.

And the same thing happens, I think, in this context as the Bible.

It's been said, it's like a fiddle you can play any tune you want with it, and it's true.

Who said that?

I just said it, but I didn't make it up.

I heard it like 50 years ago.

You sound sophisticated right, you guys, this is so important and I think, as we look at church excuse me as we look at the Bible you know you mentioned proof texting, you guys are absolutely right what we need to do is look at Scripture as God's narrative of reconciling.

This is a story of God reconciling the world to himself, and so often biblical illiteracy starts with this idea of just being able to pull one text out to prove the point that we want to prove.

But to understand the whole of scripture helps us really understand things and, on that note, I think the theology and the progression of a royal priesthood is super important to consider.

Talking about the scripture, I love what you've been saying.

You've been advocating this for the last couple of weeks, mark.

It's like let's go back, let's let the scripture be authoritative, and so you think about what the high priest is in the Old Testament.

The first high priest we ever come to experience is Adam.

He is the chief priest, the chief prophet and the chief king in the Garden of Evil.

Evil, wow, whoa new doctrine.

I'm leaving now.

Former podcast co-host Oscar Navarro.

The Garden of Eden and what you see is that you see him abdicating his responsibility.

He's the chief prophet.

He names the animals, then he uses his words to essentially lie to God.

He is the chief priest and that he's supposed to lead and care for his wife, and he ends up throwing here under the peripheral bus.

He is the chief king in that he's supposed to have authority in the garden and he advocates authority to the serpent, and so what happens is he's kicked out and then God separates the role of prophet, priest and king to multiple figures.

And so primarily you see that in Moses and Aaron.

And then one day I believe it's, I don't want to misquote a priest comes along and he has a prophecy.

He says one day there will be a chief prophet, a chief priest and a chief king one figure.

And of course we know that he's prophesying Jesus.

Jesus is the chief prophet and that he did not just say and speak truth, he said I am the way, the truth and the life.

He is the chief priest in that he didn't just offer sacrifices, he was the sacrifice for our sins.

He wasn't just a king, he was the chief king that he established his kingdom on earth as it is in heaven.

Jesus dies, resurrects, and then what happens is really fascinating.

Pentecost comes, the Holy Spirit dwells with the believers and in 1 Peter, peter himself calls all Christians the royal priesthood.

What he is doing is telling us now this priesthoodness, this responsibility that was with Adam, that went through the Old Testament, that finished with Jesus, is now being assigned to the collective church.

You all have this thing that was once had by one person, and it is a thing that was once had by one person, and it is a distortion of the gospel to take what Peter intended by the royal priesthood and reassign it to one person.

It's just a misunderstanding of the grand narrative of what we see in the scriptures.

Right, amen, yeah, and I want to get into some scriptures on that note.

But, ray, I just wanted to touch on this real quick with you.

You know we've referenced before that it's not so much what the Catholic Church affirms, it's what they add, right, so that there's always addition.

So to the Bible they're adding the Apocrypha, to grace, they're adding the sacraments and works To Jesus, they're adding the saints, so there's always an addition and addition and addition and ultimately it just and I'd like you to comment on this it takes people's focus off of Jesus, which is where our focus should be as our Redeemer.

Absolutely.

And I've learned something in the last few years when I've talked to Catholics is that they don't understand the gospel.

They understand that Jesus died for our sins, but they don't know what that means.

And to substantiate this, to make it clear that they don't understand, I often say to people when they realize they're in big trouble, they're heading for hell.

They believe that Jesus died on the cross.

I say to them what does that mean for you?

Now?

That happened 2,000 years ago.

He died on the cross for our sins.

What does that mean?

How can it help you in your dilemma?

Your under God's wrath, heading for hell, and they don't know.

And yet he's on the cross in front of them at the church, the Catholic church.

I'm doing a cross here and they just don't understand it.

And I said well, I want you to listen very carefully because this is going to open the eyes of your understanding, understanding the fact that he died for our sins so we could be released from God's wrath by his righteousness that's imputed to us.

And it's just.

Catholics are such fertile ground.

You know, I've spoken to hundreds, if not thousands, of Catholics over the years and I've learned when it comes to these issues.

When someone says I'm a room Catholic, I've learned to go deaf.

I deliberately do it.

I learned to go deaf, mark, and by that I mean I do not want to get drawn into an argument with them over their church doctrine because they've got scriptures.

They can, like we're saying they can take one text out and say oh, peter's, the Pope, Mary's this, she's exalted, she's the mother of God.

I don't want to go in those avenues.

I want to take them through the gospel, because the gospel is the power of God to salvation, which is huge for me, because it means I don't have to be eloquent when it comes to Catholic church doctrine and know it inside out and how to refute it, because I'm not that way inclined.

All I have to do is faithfully give the gospel and leave it up to God.

That's so important, Mark, that's a big deal, right?

Because I think a lot of times maybe people hear us on the podcast talking about different things we might have knowledge of and they just think, oh man, I can't talk to cultists or those in false religions because I don't know, but it goes back, like you're saying, to Scripture and the simplicity.

Yeah, this is the beauty of knowing the text right.

I mean, how many times I think we've all probably done it when you get that knock at the door and you look out and you see that, oh, it's a Mormon, jehovah's Witness or whoever it may be, and you dim the lights, get down into army crawl and you get out of the living room hoping that they don't know that you're there and you're thinking all the while man, I wish so-and-so was here.

They would be able to answer all of this person's objections and questions that they're going to bring up.

But when you know the original, when you're familiar with what the scripture says, ray has often said in the past I don't want to know what's in the Word, I want to know what's not in the Word.

How would you explain that?

Well, it's easy to say that's in the Bible, because you just need to know one verse.

But to say that's not in the Bible, you've got to know the whole Bible.

And I remember as a brand new Christian, holding a big Bible in my lap and looking inside.

I want to conquer this.

I want to conquer.

I want to know what's on pay, on every page, so I can say no, that's not in the bible.

And it's a good thing to be able to do when a, when a, when a mormon says something you know is not true, to be able to say no, that's not true, that's not the bible.

Or catholic says you know purgatory is in the bible.

Say no, it's not and have authority because you know it's not yeah yeah, and it is.

it's one thing to say I want to conquer the Word, but I want the Word to conquer me, right, I want you to search me and try me, see if there'd be any wicked way in me and lead me in the way everlasting.

And I remember reading a verse that really freed me up, and I'd like you to expand on this a little bit, on the blender analogy of hey, I don't want you to eat.

And the text is that there's one mediator between God and man, and that is the man, Christ Jesus, that I don't need Mary praying for me, I don't need to go before the Pope.

People say, well, listen, we don't revere the Pope.

But then you watch the videos of people that are running towards where the Pope is at and throwing their children.

They're absolutely beside themselves because they do believe regardless of what you are gonna tell me in private, Mr Catholic, you do believe that the Pope has some sort of supreme supernatural authority that is able to give a blessing to you that you would not be able to get in any other way.

So when we start talking about well, look it, I don't pray to saints, it becomes ridiculous with this.

Would you mind giving that illustration?

Yeah, I've shared it before but I think it's worth sharing again.

But yeah, it comes down to an issue of semantics, because the Catholics will say we do not worship the saints.

And I do have to say to my Christian friends listening, it's important to note this and to be accurate in how we speak, because if you're speaking to a Catholic or a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness and you're not accurate with your language, they'll just lose respect for you right away.

So it's just important, not that you know everything, but in the things you do, study, know them well.

So when you say to a Catholic oh you guys, the Catholic Church teaches that you should worship Mary, you should worship the saints, well, actually they don't.

In their dogma they teach that we only worship God.

But they say we venerate the saints, we venerate mary.

So they use that word to say we don't worship, we venerate.

Okay, but that's like this example I give your doctor tells you you have surgery tomorrow, so you have to fast today all day.

No, you cannot eat any solids.

You go, okay, no problem, doc.

So you go home, you grab some chicken, you grab some meat, you grab some vegetables, you throw them in a blender.

Something's wrong with your blender.

Get a new blender, you blend it up and then you take this glorious beverage and you drink it.

Is there a problem with this?

Yeah, no problem, so the next day you go to the doctor, he does an ultrasound to make sure your stomach's clear before surgery and he sees it filled.

He goes.

Wait a minute.

I told you you can't eat any solids, oh no, no, no, doctor, I didn't eat, I drank, right, semantics, semantics.

No, we don't worship, we venerate.

Okay, well, just tell me, what do you call bowing down before lighting candles, to burning incense, to kissing, making a statue, of talking, to carrying around on your shoulders, like, if that's not worship, what is?

And that is, in fact, that is the exact definition of what worship is.

It means to bow down and to kiss, yeah, yeah.

So call it whatever you want, but let's call it the truth, yeah.

And then you go from there and then you give titles like co-redemptrix man I shudder as I even utter those words.

You give titles like co-redemptrix man.

I shudder as I even utter those words.

Co-redemptrix, that means a co-redeemer in the female sense, to a person other than Christ.

Like that's serious stuff.

And Mary ascended too.

Yeah, the Immaculate Conception and then also Mary's Ascension.

It's just there's a lot there that people need to step back and say wait a minute.

Look, I remember still as a Catholic young boy I went to the evangelical church with my friend and it just immediately clicked in my mind.

I wasn't saved yet, but they're like man.

Like it was one sentence we shouldn't pray to anyone but God.

And I was like ooh.

And it was like, of course, Like it just made sense.

Of course, you don't pray to anyone but God, no matter what status people give them or how great they were historically.

Like you're talking about a finite being versus the infinite God of the universe and you're gonna attribute to that person omniscience and omnipresence, like that's insanity.

One of my favorite aunts she's the one that rode on the motorbike with the Catholic who had one lady missing.

They went skydiving together, and he is a whiskey-drinking Catholic and a very likable guy.

His name was Joe.

Anyway, my aunt was very staunch.

I don't know why staunch goes with Catholic, but she was very staunch.

She was a committed Catholic.

She got a mass in the middle of the night and stuff like that.

Her husband died, my uncle Pat, and she came around to our house and she was just chatting away and she says when I talk to Pat, and I said you don't talk to the dead, and I said he's not omnipresent, he's not following you around and waiting for you to say something to him.

Only God is omniscient, not your husband.

And I thought I'd offended her.

But the next day she gave me a thousand dollar check Send her my love.

You need to tell more Catholics that right yeah.

Yeah, but that's what they're saying.

When someone dies and they often say yeah, I challenge them and say does he follow you around?

Yeah, so when you're in a plane flying to France, is he in the plane or outside the window?

looking in flying with you.

Which one is it?

And they get all a bit confused.

Someone has even said he's outside the window because he's kind of like God looking in yeah, because there's no thought given to it.

And again, that's another element of it You're talking to the dead.

That's necromancy, that's unbiblical.

And then also, again, you're attributing omnipresence to that saint, because the millions of people all around the world praying to that same saint at the same time, and he or she are hearing every prayer.

When you pause to think about it, you realize, wow, this cannot, this can't be right, you know, so, yeah.

So here's some verses, I think, that are good for you friends to look into deeper.

But I think that give good indication that Peter was not the head of the church and there's not one man who is the head of the church Ephesians 1, 22 to 23,.

And he put all things under his feet and gave him Christ to be head over all things to the church Colossians 1, 18,.

And he is the head of the body, the church, that in all things he may have the preeminence.

And you see Peter in 1 Peter 5, 1 to 3, he says the elders who are among you, I exhort, I who am a fellow elder".

And then he talks about not as being lords over those entrusted to you.

There were two Peters.

Did you know that?

Two Peters, yeah, first Peter and second Peter.

That checks out.

I should have known.

I should have known.

So, yeah, those things are extremely key and important to remember.

And then you see Peter.

You see Peter, you know also having to be confronted Galatians 2, where Paul confronts him to his face.

He was compromising the gospel.

It says he was to be blamed.

And so you know, those things are important for us to note as well and recognize that, really, that comes down, at times, to worshiping man rather than God.

And so, mark, what do you say to a Catholic who says to you but man, this is my church, this is what I grew up with, this is what my dad and my grandfather and generations of my family I can't just walk away Because I want to speak to those right now listening, because I know we have Catholics listening.

What would you say to them?

Well, scripture compares our love for God to be hatred towards our brothers, towards our family and towards anything and everything else.

Not that we are to hate our brothers, but our love for God should be so great that it makes our love and our affection towards anything and everything else seem like hatred.

When my brother Mike got saved during COVID, the way he explained his salvation to me was because we grew up Catholic.

He said it was as if I was able to skip the line and go to the front.

That's what Christianity did.

Skip the line and go to the front, that's what Christianity did.

That was his way of trying to make sense of grace.

Right, you really mean I don't have to do anything?

Somebody worded it like this grace is heaven's anthem sung over sinners who deserve silence.

Grace is heaven's anthem sung over sinners who deserve silence.

When Christ invades your life and sets a person free, you are free, indeed right that the Son of man came to seek and save that which is lost, that there is nothing that you can do to earn and merit the smile of God.

When a Catholic comes up to the microphone, when I'm opening or preaching, or when I'm out on the street and I find out that they're Catholic, I well up with excitement and the first thing I tell them is man, I have such great and freeing news for you here right now, because grace is God's unmerited favor to the infinitely ill-deserving.

I'm not out here to gain God's acceptance.

I'm not here to serve him, to make him smile.

He smiles because of what Christ did and I serve him because I am accepted solely based upon what Jesus did.

We get to skip the line because of what Christ did.

We get to the front of the line.

We get VIP access.

Christ is the password and the bridge between man and God that you don't need to strive anymore.

This is what Jesus did when he died on the cross and he said it is finished, paid in full.

Tell the TSI, it is done.

He put money inside the till so that you have access to the Father, never wondering or worried if he's going to squash you because you did that horrific thing, whatever that is, or you didn't do that thing, as great as it is.

That's what grace is and that's what awaits the Catholic or the Episcopalian or the Mormon or the Jehovah's Witness who says I'm ready to come to Christ on His terms.

What are the terms?

Grace alone, faith alone as found in Scripture, alone to the glory of God, alone, and something else?

Alone To God, alone To the glory of God, alone To the glory of God, alone, right, so that's what it is, man.

It's such freedom, such freedom, and that's what grace does.

Amen.

You know, Ray.

I wanted to ask you if you get the same sense I do, because no religious leader on the planet can garner more attention, more media currency than the Pope.

I mean, no one even comes close, okay, Taylor Swift.

Mr T at one time Mr T he was the ultimate Fonz.

But, ray, do you share in Fonz?

Oh the Fonz, hey cool.

Do you share in my experience of utter frustration, because I can't count how many occasions where the Pope whether it's Easter or it's Christmas or it's some kind of special occasion he's got probably maybe a couple billion people around the world watching him and he stands up and does not preach the gospel.

I'm like, oh, like to tell like it's always, it's always chants, it's always ritual, it's always there's no like you need to repent and turn to Christ, does that?

oh, it totally frustrates me how do you feel about it?

I?

have dreams of the media looking at the balcony and suddenly someone grabs the Pope's sleeve and pulls him down and stands up in his place, because it's such a he could dress you up, ray, in a Pope outfit.

It really is such a simple message Like this morning.

I was around at the college and I discerned two people didn't have enough personality to come on camera.

I could have filmed them, but it would have just been thrown to the side because they had no color to their character.

So I gave them the gospel, both of them off camera.

And it was such an easy thing to do and only took two or three minutes because I'd gone through it in my mind and the Pope could do the easy thing to do.

And only took two or three minutes because I'd gone through it in my mind and the pope could do the same thing to billions of people just simply say this is god's standard of holiness lust is adultery, hatred is murder, lying lips and abomination to the lord.

All lies will be apart in the lake of fire.

Hell is very real, but god's written mercy provided a savior and when jesus suffered and died on the cross, he took the punishment for our sins.

We don't have to do anything.

It's all been done, it is finished.

He rose from the dead, defeated the greatest enemy, and if you repent today that's not confession to a priest get before God, truly turn from sin, trust in Jesus.

God will grant you everlasting life as a free gift.

All because of His amazing grace.

All because of his amazing grace.

Thank you, folks.

A little wave and he's off.

It's a very simple thing to do.

I mean, it's like Paul, sorry.

It's like Paul standing in front of Herod and Agrippa, or Herod, agrippa and the others.

It's like Paul on Mars Hill.

It's like Peter on the day of Pentecost.

Man preach the gospel to those who had murdered Jesus.

So he was taking a great risk because he loved them.

Ray, we can probably hide you in that hat of his.

They could fall down and disappear.

Say where's Ray gone?

Martin Luther said the Pope is not, according to divine right, the head of the Christian church.

Spurgeon said Christ is the head of the church, not the Pope, nor any other man.

Christ needs no vicar, jc Ryle.

The idea of a Pope is utterly foreign to the Bible.

There is no trace of it in the New Testament, rc Sproul.

There is not one shred of biblical evidence for the office of the papacy.

Francis Schaeffer, hierarchy in the church that undermines the authority of Scripture is rebellion.

Wow, and I'll finish off with John MacArthur Peter was not a Pope.

The idea of a Pope is anti-biblical.

Christ is the head of the church, not any man.

So yeah.

You see, we touched on William Tyndale earlier on and I think we need to pause for a minute and think of the sacrifice that he gave for the scriptures.

He was burned at the stake.

They mercifully strangled him to death before they put them to death.

But ask yourself, why would the Catholic Church put a man to death who wanted to make the scriptures available to the common people?

And it's because the scriptures expose Rome for what it is that it's not the true church, and I encourage any Catholic who wants the truth just read the Bible.

Don't join my church, Don't follow me.

Just open up the New Testament and read the Bible.

Don't join my church, Don't follow me.

Just open up the New Testament and read what the scriptures say.

And be as the brains and search the scriptures and see if these things are so.

Amen, yeah, and look, I think too it's important to look back on the history of a lot of the popes, which often isn't done, and these aren't just like Protestant sources.

I mean, a lot of these are Catholic sources.

I'd encourage people to check out Saints and Sinners by Eamon Duffy, who's a Catholic and who conceded some of the corruption with the popes.

And look, we can look and say, obviously, just because someone was corrupt, that doesn't mean the teachings are false per se.

We can look in Christianity there have been adulterers who have been pastors.

There have been pedophiles.

That have been on and on.

You can go right, but when you ascribe such authority and a position of such preeminence, you would think this is like.

This guy is special, he's God's man.

But you look at some of the popes.

You know Alexander VI bribery, murder, adultery, nepotism.

He was a politician.

John VII murder, incest, orgies, blasphemy.

Benedict IX sold papacy sexually depraved.

On and on, without going through the whole list, but there's been so much throughout the ages of popes that have been corrupt in massive ways.

Richard Price is a Catholic historian and he summarizes the drama Because one of the things that it's often thought of is like well, the popes throughout history has been given to the church by God.

But he talks about how some of these people were like committing murder to become the Pope, and he summarizes this quote.

He says it is clear that they trust each other so little they felt the need for an oath so shameful that it had to be kept secret.

This lowered the relations between the head of the state and the primate of the church to the level of a deal between gangsters.

He like compares the popes to being just like this gangster society of trying to gain control.

Yeah, and then you look, even the most recent Pope Francis, who, in all transparency, was controversial among Catholics themselves.

Some Catholics didn't agree with this, but again, the head of the church affirming evolution, talking about and there are, there are quotes from this.

There's sources to all this.

God created homosexuals the way they are, same-sex blessings being permitted, whatever qualifications are given like this is huge.

Lgbtq plus inclusion in synods, transgender support signals, interfaith prayers with Muslims, hindus and pagans, global fraternity over biblical truth, climate, gospel confusion I mean so much there.

When you mine these things, you realize this is not light stuff.

Saying this is the head of the church who propagated these things.

So, friends, again, we hope you hear our hearts.

We love our Catholic friends.

We must speak truth.

We love our Catholic friends.

We must speak truth.

Look, compassion does not equal compromise.

Compassion in its true form must speak truth, because if we're not really compassionate toward people, then we don't care whether they're in the truth or not, and if people aren't in the truth, they don't have everlasting life.

And so we hope you get this.

This is just surface level treatment of this.

We don't have the time to go in depth, but I encourage you, believers, examine the Scriptures to see if these things are.

So, be a Berean and study and read and speak the truth.

And for those of you listening who are Catholics, may you turn to Christ and believe the true gospel.

You have the true Christ now.

Receive the true gospel.

That salvation is a gift that is given by God to those who have violated his law.

If you've stolen once, you're a thief.

You've lied once, you're a liar.

If you've looked with lust, you're an adulterer.

You've used God's name in vain, you're a blasphemer.

You've had unjust anger or hatred in your heart, you're guilty of murder.

In the sight of God, it's through the death and resurrection of Christ, that one you've seen on that crucifix time and again, who died and rose again, who could set you free.

But you must come to him in repentance and faith and receive that free gift.

So thank you.

That's all no silliness.

Podcast at livingwaterscom with your thoughts and your suggestions and ideas, and remember to check out livingwaterscom for all our resources.

Thanks for joining us.

We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters podcast.

I think the next time was a bit silly.

Next time, next time.