So what I would love to reframe for people is that what you have been told, your label all of life, what you have been told, is not an illness of your mind, that category doesn't exist, like that's a false construct, but yet you can still struggle with that thing.

So now, what should that do?

That should then open us up to well, what does the Bible say about sadness or being a busybody in school or struggling with anxiety?

What does the Bible say about those things?

Let's frame this through the lens of Scripture.

And what does the Bible say about meds?

Well, meds are not inherently sinful.

If a person's going to make an argument that medications are sinful, I mean it's first of all not true.

Like Paul encourages wine for the sake of the stomach, 1 Timothy 5.23.

Like you can use medicine for medical purposes, even things that we don't know why it's helping.

It's just helping.

Like Tylenol, I don't know why I have a headache sometimes.

It's just helping relieve the headache, you know.

So in the book I try to make it clear that you can.

If you have God-honoring motivations and you've obtained them legally, you can use psychotropics in a way that honors the Lord.

It doesn't make you a weaker, lesser person.

But you just have to recognize what they're doing.

They're not treating the root cause, they're treating the symptoms of the cause.

Unpolisonationism, friends, that's the new mental illness sweeping the nation and I'm sad or I don't know, maybe happy to report that I have it, frans, that's right, my pool is no more.

Well, it's in the process of being no more.

And before you write and say, oh, you have a pool, you're rich, everyone has a pool in California, it's no big deal.

But, guys, I have a pool, you're rich, everyone has a pool in California, it's no big deal.

But, guys, I pulled the plug.

Good, I had to go to Home Depot and try to rent one of those water suction things to get it out.

Oh, I've got one.

What I've got two.

You do not, mark, I do.

I've got two really big ones, our friendship has officially ended.

You have no idea what I went through.

It's because we live so far apart.

I cannot believe you seriously, do I do?

All right, all you need is a thirsty dog.

Yeah, we'll talk about your labor status.

I'm just disappointed that you didn't let me skate it before you came.

Yeah Well, I was going to that.

You didn't let me skate it before.

Yeah well, I was gonna say so.

So I send pictures to my friends of the destruction of my pool, because what they do is they?

They take out two feet around the perimeter and they make three holes in the bottom.

There's all this rubble inside.

So I send it uh to my dear friends and oscar responds wait, can't we skate it?

Mark spence responds your, your pool is dirty.

And then I sent it uh to a bunch friends and then we were talking about you know, like, hey, why are you removing your pool?

I said look, we hardly use it.

It's a bunch of money wasted in maintenance and repair and it's eating up precious space that can be used for my incessant hookah smoking and Rachel's monthly truck driver's union meetings.

Away with it, Ray you know Rachel's a truck driver.

So what about the most important reason you're getting rid of your?

poor.

Death trap for grandchildren.

Good point Ray.

Good point.

And children.

Oh, grandchildren, eh, whatever, yeah, that's right, Rachel's been anxious.

We've got two more coming you know, five kids, more grandkid babies.

I'm serious about you not letting us skate it, though that's messed up.

Oscar, you don't know how to skate.

That was like the big growing up when you found out there was an empty neighborhood.

It was like you had about three weekends.

Yeah, we can one, no one knew about it.

We can two there was a big party and we can three the cops would shut it down.

Yeah, so you ruined a small window of opportunity for me?

I know I should have.

I should have brought you to humiliate you as you tried to skate it.

All right, friends, time for a cool, classy comment, a comment.

This comment is from about our Spanish tracts on our YouTube channel.

This is from Nathan.

Cote, it's in English.

Huh, it's in what English I?

think so.

You have the gift of interpretation.

No, no, it's not.

This is from the YouTube channel.

That's another one.

This is from Nathan Cote.

It could have only been through God.

As everything is, I'm a boy about to turn 15, and I've been a listener for a couple of years now.

All of your insights, overflowing with biblical truth and bubbling with godly fellowship, have made a godly ordained impact on my life that I can't describe.

I'm eternally grateful for your contribution to the advancement of God's kingdom.

Remember he's 14.

Impacting millions of others and me personally.

Before God placed you all in my life, I was living a lukewarm Christian life, but did not know it.

Christian was pretty much a title I held, and although I believed all of the orthodox doctrine I was raised in, I don't think I had ever made a personal surrender of my life to Christ.

This podcast had a huge influence on God, leading me to a true saving faith in which I now live out my life with intentionality to please the Lord and advance his kingdom.

Man.

Now he must have he read that through AI?

I don't think so, man.

That was really good you have all made me realize the importance and need for actual truth in such a paganistic culture.

Anytime I feel influenced by the deceptive ways of the world, I know I could be refreshed every time I listened to all of your biblically-based truth and wisdom.

There's so much ungodliness in this world and it is very deceptive in hiding itself in the many services that call themselves Christian but really have ungodly workers and intentions.

I'm so thankful that this podcast stands by what it claims.

Additionally, I'd like to thank Ray for how much he has made me realize the importance of evangelism and reaching the lost.

Thank you all so much for the work you do and the personal impact you have had on my life.

I wish I could meet all four of you in person to tell you all the ways in which God, in his infinite mercy, has allowed wretched, sinful filth like me to be influenced by such godly men.

All praise be to God forever.

He's on staff.

We'll hire him.

Yes, and he succeeded.

Look what he put at the end.

Don't read this part out loud, but see if Ray says amen.

The last word was forever.

Busted Ray Comfort.

Congratulations, our dear friend.

Nathan.

I'm ready for him to write a book, I know.

Nathan brother, what can we say?

I mean, we sit around this table each week and do what we do, but this is why we live, it's for responses like that.

So praise God and stay strong.

Amen.

Yeah, I wish I got saved at his age.

We're still waiting, I know.

All right, friends.

Time for Radically Revolutionary Resources.

This podcast is brought to you by Ray Comfort's Multiple Treasure Chests.

Ray, when's this going to stop, this treasure chest thing?

I am so excited because it's getting people using the coin.

How many do we have now?

Is it four?

I think there's three or four, with a gold one, I think, over 500 of soul.

We used to sell seven a month and it's just taken off when people have seen the excitement of having a real nice treasure chest that you keep the treasure of the coin with the Ten Commandments and the Gospel on it, yeah, amen, I'm addicted to those little treasure chests.

We can tell right.

So check them out, friends.

Don't forget the Living Waters mug, the Evidence Study Bible, living Waters TV, and don't forget the podcast YouTube channel.

Check out all that stuff at livingwaterscom.

Yeah, all right, friends, today we have with us in the studio you guys selling drugs over there.

I figured we have with us.

You better explain that Mark gave him a teen commandment coin to look at.

That's what it was Today friends, in case you haven't been able to tell by the very cool, distinguished and very sophisticated laugh, we have a special guest with us here to analyze, psychoanalyze, ray Comfort.

Mark Svensson and.

Oscar.

Navarro.

They didn't know what this was all about.

It's a surprise therapy session.

He just left.

It's our good friend Greg Gifford.

Guys, welcome, Greg.

This needs a clap.

Yes, oh, thank you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Greg brother, good to have you with us man.

Yeah, good to be here.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah, I've had a connection with you in a way.

I In a way I serve on the board of Wretched or the Fortis Institute or Gospel Partners Media with our good friend Todd Friel.

Oh yeah, todd Friel, freakishly tall Todd, the wretch himself.

Why does Todd have two Ds to his name?

Are we pronouncing it wrong?

Should I have a Y on the end of my name, todd-a-da-da-da?

An extra Y on the end of my name, right, yeah, yeah yeah, right, he wants emphasis.

But, greg, brother, we're blessed to have you with us, man, so encouraged by what the Lord's been doing in and through your life.

You've been working again with Fortis for a long time the Transformed podcast, the television series that you do, which includes counseling people.

You're the chair of the School of Biblical Studies at the Masters University, fellow at the Fortis Institute, and you pastor, you counsel man.

You do a lot of stuff.

You served in the military too.

Sure, yeah, captain man, true, serious stuff.

We have two military guys on this podcast and the next one.

They haven't mentioned our studio audience.

Yeah, oh, and our studio audience.

We have with us today, for the very first time, the new Living Waters employee, phoebe Robb.

Phoebe, welcome, you guys have heard us mention our good friend, christian Robb, who's been a friend for a long time.

Phoebe Mark and I have known since her birth, basically, and she's been a part of the church where we pastored and a part of our friend group for many, many years at our church now, and blessed to have you with us, phoebe.

So welcome aboard.

All right, greg Gifford, anyone call you Gregory?

Yes, when I'm in trouble.

Okay, we'll do that today.

So you psychoanalyze someone that calls you Gregory.

Yeah, what does that mean and how does that make you feel?

Yeah, tell us.

So, greg, today we're going to be talking about the unbiblical errors of psychiatry and psychology, and this is sparked by an amazing, amazing book you wrote Lies.

My Therapist Told Me why Christians Should Aim for More Than Just Treating Symptoms, and some really sophisticated guy endorsed it back here.

Look at that Johnny Artimanis, emil EZ Zwayne.

Man, I was honored to be asked to endorse it and was blessed to do that.

Man, this is a phenomenal book.

Someone, in one of the endorsements, I think, said that they thought this is going to kind of be the authoritative work on this subject, and I really think it is going to be.

I was encouraged.

I was personally edified, especially, man, that last chapter about Christ.

I mean, I was reading it and just worshiping the Lord, and so we're excited to have you with us.

Tell us what's been behind the book and how it's been doing so far.

You just look behind the book.

Your name is behind the book.

No, it was.

I mean, honestly, as a counselor, there's always a bunch of methods that seem odd, things that come up, you know, like there's a method where you'll have your eyes follow someone's finger in counseling, or you'll have like exposure therapy, where you think about what you experienced in that trauma and sometimes, as a Christian, it's just like I don't know if these things are actually dealing with the root of the issue.

So instead of just critiquing all those downstream things, it was really the beginning of me trying to figure out why, as Christians, do we use those.

What's happening?

Are those things really treating the root of the cause?

And that's where the book came in, where I wanted to help speak to what are the ideas behind modern day therapy secular psychology, psychiatry and are they really helping us or are they making things worse?

So like that's how the trajectory started and that was probably three years ago.

Just starting to think that through and do that research.

Man a lot of research.

I mean, the book is packed with good information.

I think, especially with a book like this, it's no doubt going to be controversial.

I mean, it's a disruptor, no question.

It's so important that things are carefully and thoroughly researched, and so that's one of the things I really appreciated about it, and bro it's on fire.

I looked it up on Amazon.

It's like in the top 2000, which may not sound impressive, until you realize Amazon has 32.8 million different titles, so it's in the very top echelons.

I think it was like number three in the counseling category, which is huge.

Yeah, I mean it creates conversations, even just talking about like does a Christian use therapy, do they not?

Is it all good, is it all bad?

Like that's where we live.

We live in a therapeutic age.

Yeah, Well, we want to get into all of that.

Uh, Oscar, I know you took the book with you to the Dominican Republic and uh, yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts and questions.

Uh, I got to.

I got a chance to get it before I left for my trip, so I read it on the flight there a little bit on the way back.

Um, help me.

I have great questions for you, gray, and one of them is help people walk through.

Cause I think something that you did well in the book is that you did you.

You had a balanced approach of not trying to demonize individuals but help them think more clearly and connect the dots between what they're struggling with and the spiritual aspect of of themselves, and I guess the question is why does that get lost on so many people and how do we bring that back into the conversation?

That's, I think, one of the hardest parts, because I think we're living in this naturalistic society where everything has a physical explanation and when we are sad or we grieve or we respond to a traumatic moment in an unusual way, our natural response no pun intended is to look for a natural cause.

What about my body?

Or my brain is causing this?

They've started to try to blame things on the brain and confuse mind and brain in such a way that it seems like there is a biological reason why you are depressed or a biological reason why you have anxiety or ADHD.

And, as a Christian, listening to that, first of all, those things can exist.

But I'm just trying to prompt like is that an issue of your body?

Is it an issue of your brain?

So a lot of people that will hear this say like, oh, you prompt like is that an issue of your body?

Is it an issue of your brain?

So a lot of people that will hear this say like he doesn't believe in science, he doesn't believe in these issues.

And no, I'm not saying that.

I'm saying can we demonstrate that these are actually issues of my brain?

And if we can't, then the reality is we have to at least be open to how God, through his word, frames that subject.

So I would wonder, like in a naturalistic world and there's no naturalistic explanation and there's no naturalistic proof, would you be open to another explanation?

And that's what I'm trying to accomplish here.

You?

know, when we talk about counseling, right, it kind of falls into many different sorts of categories, but here in particular, maybe you can give a working definition of what does it mean to have biblical counseling?

I have a Christian friend who grew up in a homosexual lifestyle and when he became a Christian he still had these temptations.

He thought that they would magically kind of fall apart and go away.

And he had a Christian counselor come to him and say, hey, every time you're tempted I want you to smell this bag of dog feces.

And then you can relate the two together.

And he said it just grossed me out and he ended up walking away from the Christian faith.

But when we talk about biblical counseling, talk about integration, define it for us.

Where do we start?

Sure, yeah, big picture biblical counseling is trying to use the Bible as the authority and the source, the authority and the source.

So it's not just that we're saying, well, we're going to use a proverb here and there.

You guys know Dave Ramsey, you know financial peace He'll take one proverb and frame this whole methodology off that one proverb.

We're not trying to do that.

We're trying to say let's think about people through the lens of Scripture, let's think about their problems through the lens of Scripture, let's think about the solutions to their problems through the lens of Scripture.

And honestly, as anthropology goes, so goes all of the rest your care for people, the solutions you would offer them.

So it's biblical counseling.

It's not trying to claim its own jurisdiction, it's just trying to help people from the authoritative and sufficient Word of God.

I mean, that's really the end of it yeah, and at the end of the day, it always comes down to authority.

I mean, we're either going to lean on man himself being the final authority on all things that relate to life and the foundations of the world in which we live, or we're going to rely on the authority of God's word.

I mean, that's it, and I love simplicity.

We have those two options and it's one or the other every single time, and it's sad to me, I think that people don't think in that way.

One of the questions I've been asking people I mentioned on the podcast is who's the most significant human being that has ever lived that has most impacted the world?

Oprah Winfrey.

Right A car for you, and you and you.

But no, obviously, almost everyone says Jesus.

And then I asked him what is the most impactful book in all of history, the most printed, the most read, the most translated, the most purchased?

The Bible.

I say, man, if Jesus is the most significant person that's ever lived, the Bible is the most important book, the greatest book ever written then wouldn't you be wise to say who is Jesus and what does his Word say?

And so it's sad that a lot of Christians even don't recognize that, but they're going to the world not realizing that they are in a sense helping to verify it.

Quote as an authority and that's tragic.

Yeah, there's an aspect of that, too, where I think some are just looking for answers.

Aspect of that, too, where I think some are just looking for answers and their faith or their church has been a shallow one, one of just follow Jesus, but there hasn't really been any substantive answers through the scripture.

And so what?

we're doing is we're training people to go to the secular therapeutic to get the real world, practical answers with what's being called mental illnesses grief PTSD.

Greg.

Two questions Speaking of simplicity could you define the difference between psychology and psychiatry?

Good question.

Yeah, sure.

So psychiatry is medicine, it's a medical doctor.

You have to go through all the same licensure training that any medical doctor would go through, so it's a specific branch of medicine.

Psychology is counseling, it's therapy, and if you were a psychologist, you don't have the authority to write a prescription.

If you're a psychiatrist, you have the authority to write a prescription Usually.

That's the biggest difference, and a psychologist might refer you to a psychiatrist to go get meds.

Oh, that's good, Now I know.

Second question is oh, that's good, now I know.

Second question is a lot of people are told they have mental disease because they're depressed.

Do you think it's legitimate to tell someone they are mentally unstable because they're depressed?

And the reason I'm asking that is we've got a lot to be depressed about in this world and I think someone who's depressed is sane because they're thinking about the fact they're going to die, they're going to lose their loved ones.

The whole world's in a mess and there's a lot of reasons to be depressed.

And the same people that say, um, depression is a mental disease, say something like 300 million people in the world have got depression, so they've got mental disease right, which puts the whole human race in a mess right.

yeah, it's hard to define what a mental disease is, even by the secular therapeutic.

So there's no objective line of when you have it and when you don't.

We can't do a scan of your brain, we can't do blood work.

What you're going to do is verbally describe your symptoms and a psychologist sometimes general practitioners or aists they will diagnose you based off your symptoms.

So is that person mentally unstable?

We can't define what mentally unstable is if we're using the secular therapeutic terminology.

So that's the real issue.

So what happens is the diagnosis grows because there's no objective way to verify you have it and there's no objective way to verify you don't have it.

So, but I want to keep adding that caveat of you can be sad and not have a mental disease.

So don't hear me say there's no such thing as depression.

But I am saying there's no objective way to verify you have depression and that's why the diagnosis keeps growing.

And there's one way to add to someone's depression is to tell them they're mental on top of their depression.

And there's no cure, yeah, other than psychotropics and antidepressants.

Would you have got symptoms that are worse than the disease often.

It can become a self-fulfilling prophecy, where you begin to self-conceptualize.

I think of myself as depressed, and that's why I can't do this thing, which is tricky.

It's a really tricky thing.

Yeah.

Yeah, greg, one of the things you you hammer in the book again and again and again and I love the intentional repetition I noticed that was that was done throughout the book and it's so good because we just, you know, don't get it as people.

Oftentimes we just hear it, we read it, but but it doesn't stick, but it's stuck can you guys read that again?

Well, what we do as people is.

We didn't itits a stock of mackerel, does that?

work.

Greg.

Yeah, thank you.

So you keep talking about the difference and you alluded to it a moment ago the difference between the brain and the mind, and I do think it's an honest mistake that people make, not realizing that there is a difference.

So I'd really love you to just kind of explain that to us.

How are the mind and the brain different?

I mean, how do you think without your brain or have cognitive processes without your brain, or do they interrelate?

Yeah, that's really what got me started.

The whole book I was gonna call Mind and Brain or Mind Versus Brain, and apparently that was such a lame title that it was rejected by yeah, that was pretty lame, bro, that it was rejected by him.

Yeah, that was pretty lame bro.

Go back, I gotta admit.

Try again.

The title is phenomenal Strike two.

So the reason why is?

That is really at the crux of the issue.

For a Christian and I know that there are unbelievers that will read this and think this through but as a Christian, we know what the mind is.

We just haven't always connected it to mental health.

Everyone is familiar with Romans 12 too.

Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind.

And when I say that, most people Christians that is don't think my brain is going to be renewed.

In fact we know 2 Corinthians, 4, 16, 17, 18, like the outer man's wasting away.

So your brain and your mind are not the same thing, and the Bible talks about thoughts actually coming from our inner person.

And I don't mean, like our organ of our lung, our heart, the organ of our heart, the organ of our brain, but our thoughts come from our immaterial person, and the mind is the source of your cognition and your intellect and your thoughts.

So what's the difference between the mind and the soul?

You could say they're both part of the immaterial person, and if you're a trichotomist, some would say that's another part spirit, soul, body.

Or if you're a dichotomist, it's all inner man and then there's outer man.

Is that an in-house debate, greg?

For people listening.

Trichotomy versus dichotomy.

Yeah, I think it is an in-house debate, but either of those positions agree it's immaterial, the mind is immaterial.

So even if you're a trichotomist, you believe the mind is immaterial.

You don't believe it's material and honestly, that's not really hard to prove in the scripture Romans 12, 2, ephesians 4, 23.

Go back to Genesis 6 and see that the thoughts and intentions of the heart of man are evil continually.

So it's not hard really to see in the scripture where your thoughts are coming from.

What the secular therapeutic did around the turn of the 1900s is started to use mental and brain synonymously.

I think it makes sense in light of Darwin and naturalism on the rise.

So you start to combine the mind and the brain.

And the problem is now you start to treat mental issues with brain treatments, medical solutions.

So you medicalize the mind.

And that small shift in anthropology is what has got us to a point where one in five people have a mental illness.

One in 10 are on psychotropics because we don't know exactly what we're treating.

And suicide's up there.

Yeah, suicide's up, hopelessness is up.

I mean the big pharma industry of making money off of us taking antidepressants.

It's staggering, it's in the billions.

What role does medication?

I remember reading inside your book about the missionary family, you know, and the mother was like going insane.

Is there a balance here?

And I know that I'm opening up a can of worms here talking about the medication side of it, but sure.

Those are.

I mean, those are the questions everybody's asking Like so are you saying it's wrong to take an antidepressant and the answer is no?

We are not saying that.

What I'm saying is that the antidepressant is treating your body when it may actually be a mental issue.

So if the mind is immaterial, there is no pill that you're going to take that's going to change your mind.

Easy example we would pay good money for a pill that would give us pure thoughts, but it doesn't exist and it will never exist, because pills cannot change your heart, your inner person or your mind.

So what are those pills doing?

Helping you manage symptoms like Tylenol?

Tylenol has a place, but Tylenol can actually create more problems for you if you're not dealing with the root of the issue.

So we don't want to feel better if we're in hard and unrepentant sin Like so.

Headaches are not caused from a lack of Tylenol Right.

Right is basically the point here.

So when you medicate and there's no real diagnosis happening and most medicine is treating a symptom, not the actual problem, I think that we have the ability to take this easy way out, right when we think that Christians come along and they say I believe the Bible is true.

However, there's some practical steps, you know.

Maybe things become pragmatic and this just helps me to move forward.

And then we have another issue of we're not bearing one another's burdens and we're not, you know, I guess, just fighting through what we're going through.

Right right To your point.

Medical doctors should be pursued and we should test for any reason why there might be a medical issue going on, why I feel the way I do.

But if there's no medical reason, then we should at least be open to what's going on in my inner person that's encouraging these outer man symptoms.

in all fairness, I think the state of mental health in the United States is in such a tipping point right now and there's not very many places where people can turn.

Sure, you can, you can.

You've seen this.

I mean, you know, if you turn to modern therapy to your point, like the, the, the DMR, which is the book therapist used, it basically encourages them to affirm and pursue whatever feeling they find inside of themselves.

Uh, to your point earlier, there's no authority in God.

It's only authority in your own heart.

In other words, if you're a Christian and you walk into a modern therapy office and you say I've got these inner feelings, same-sex attraction they will say, okay, let's help you come to peace with that.

There's no authority outside of your inner desire.

If you go in there and you say I want to divorce my spouse and leave my children, Okay, I will help you come to terms with that decision and communicate that to your family.

That's ultimately what modern therapy will drive you to.

Why?

Because there's no rudder steering the ship.

There's no ultimate authority beyond my inner feelings and desires.

But let me turn the mirror a little bit and say also so many churches and pastors are underprepared and are not equipped to have these kind of important conversations as well.

I've seen a pastor where they got this book that was written in the 80s and it was like he would prescribe out of context Bible verses oh, you're depressed?

Here is your Bible verse.

Go, Be depressed no more.

And they don't have the tools and resources to actually walk people through some of this.

And the kicker is that sometimes people would walk away feeling shamed, as though if I'm depressed, it can only be that I'm in sin, sin not recognizing the scriptures, invitation to understand suffering in the way that some of us will have, suffering that is given to us by the Lord.

And so how?

I guess?

The question is like where do we go?

How does the average person who's maybe listening to this going?

Okay, well, I don't want to go to my psychiatrist, but I can't go to a therapist and my pastor doesn't seem to have answers for me.

What do they do?

I think that's a win because they're asking and they're open to what God's Word might say first of all.

And so it's kind of a failure on our part if we say, well, don't go to a therapist, but we have no one for you to go to.

It's like, oh great, well, I got to go to my therapist.

Biblical counseling is its own field now and that means that there are counselors, resources, training centers, all of that that correspond to that field.

It is a growing field.

I think you could trace it back to the 60s, late 60s, early 70s.

So that means that it has refinements that need to take place.

Or it means that there are people that need to grow in nuance and understanding suffering versus sin, like those things exist.

But if someone's watching this or listening to this, biblicalcounselingcom is where I would start, which is the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, and the certified really matters because it's not just someone who has a good heart, but it's someone who's actually gone through training.

They've been evaluated and supervised in that process of counseling.

So if you're stuck and listening to this biblicalcounselingcom, find a counselor and look for those resources.

That's the next step.

Yeah, Greg, what are some of the red?

I know you touched on it slightly before the following the finger.

What are some of the red flags that people should look for when it comes to someone counseling them?

In terms of like qualifications or who's counseling them.

Not just qualifications, what they're saying you know, yeah, psychologists or psychiatrists, yeah yeah, I would really, really, really be guarded against going to an unbeliever, first of all to get help with your mind, because here's what we're practically saying.

They've done years of training, but it's in humanistic psychology, it's in Rogerian counseling, it's in some man-centered therapy, that unbeliever doesn't believe in the soul, immaterial person, afterlife, jesus, doesn't understand the basic purpose of life to glorify God and enjoy Him forever.

And now I'm going to go to them and bear my life before them and get life advice from them.

So I think honestly, if a person's not a Christian, we're doing our best not to go to them.

We're looking for at least a Christian counselor or therapist.

Blessed is the man who walks, not on the counsel of the ungodly.

Right.

Is there a common phrase that you think should be removed from all counseling sort of sessions?

You know, we hear, you know, follow your heart.

What is it that makes your blood boil?

I mean, follow your heart's definitely at the top of the list, I think anytime someone hides behind a mental illness it does.

It's something where I think it warrants challenge because you're not being faithful to Christ because of a perceived mental illness, and we have to be honest about that, that you know.

So if I say I can't control my anger because I'm bipolar, those things do get me thinking and they will encourage me to push back a little bit outside of those.

It's usually the bigger apologetic stuff of biblical counseling, like the Bible doesn't have all the answers.

The Bible wasn't intended for that and I think you you're missing out on the truth of Scripture and what it's, like you know, that deal with the sufficiency of Scripture.

When we talk about Scripture being sufficient, what does that mean?

Yeah, sufficiency of Scripture means that all things that pertain to life and godliness are found in the Word.

So anything that I need to live a godly life, God tells me through His Word.

And that has a lot of implications.

That goes back before the internet, it goes back before podcasts, it goes back before the mental health movement.

God, through His Word, has equipped the Christian with all that they need.

So the questions start to come.

Well, can I use other things?

What's the benefit of them?

But at the very end of the day we're saying God, through His Word, has given us all that we need.

That's the sufficiency of Scripture.

You know, one of the things you talk about, Greg, that I really really loved in the book was you identify secular psychologists or psychiatrists as secular pastors that people are going to, and I loved the way that you framed that, because that's exactly what's happening, right, because, like you said, we're dealing with the issues of the mind which deal with the inner man, and I also loved how you talked about the inner and the outer right.

The outer, your brain, is considered the outer right, when the inner is your mind, which connects again with your soul, your spirit.

What have you so?

yeah, yeah, I think we don't always consider that If you're going to a marriage family therapist as a Christian, most of the time you're not thinking well, I'm wanting to usurp my pastor's role or I want to ignore and sideline the Bible.

I don't think most people are thinking.

I think they're just saying I need help and who do we go to?

We Googled this lady in town and she said she could take us.

She takes our insurance.

I think it's really that pragmatic.

But the other side of that is it's a challenge.

Challenge now, because we didn't give our pastors the opportunity to at least speak into the issue.

So now I'm going to a licensed professional counselor marriage family therapist and they're giving me all this marital advice that doesn't correspond to the Bible and they're talking about needs theory and how to affirm each other the Bible and they're talking about needs theory and how to affirm each other.

They're giving me these communication tips and it's really like downstream, surfacy-level stuff.

They're not talking about the gospel and forgiveness and what it's like to be merciful in marriage and to repent and the marriage family therapists I mean they can't touch that.

So what are they?

We're going to them, they're acting like our pastor, but then they're giving us secular and mostly generally unhelpful advice, and the point of this book is to help point people back to.

Okay, maybe your pastor doesn't have the time, doesn't have the resources, doesn't have the training, that's totally fair.

But that's not a knock on God's Word.

God's Word still has those answers.

So let's find someone who's going to use God's Word to help you, instead of find someone that's not going to use God's Word to help you.

Yeah, that's good.

Now I want to ask you a question that Ray has been dying to ask.

Hey, greg, where does the term shrink come from?

Do they try to shrink your brain?

Yeah, I can hear.

Ken Ham making a remark about that.

Oh yeah, ray's shrunk altogether.

His body's shrunk, his brain is shrunk.

That's it.

Daily shrinking, yeah.

Is that a genuine question?

No, I'm kidding, no, seriously.

I got no idea.

Where did it come from?

No clue, no clue.

I've got a question I know you say to the Christian who's been in therapy for 10 years and they still blame their parents and their upbringing and whatever it may be, perhaps they're not even part of the local church, they don't know where to go.

Maybe this addresses that the bodily autonomy and self-introspection, not knowing where to go.

How do we do that?

I would just first of all appeal like you've been in therapy 10 years and is it helping you know, like, how long are you going to go?

Well, I'm no longer cutting myself, so it seems to be helping, yeah.

There's a pragmatic approach to some things and we're thinking how do we address it?

That is like the preservation of life is noble, the protection of the image of God is noble, right, but are you getting at the root of the issues or have you created a dependency on this therapist?

That's right, and the therapist also, even though there are symptoms that have been alleviated.

There's potential symptoms that have been created, like the.

I am now canceling family members because of how I'm reconstructing past events and I'm calling people toxic and I see myself as triggered by a certain word or phrase, and that's the young 20-somethings.

Yeah, it's triggered, bro.

All those buzzwords, though man, all those buzzwords though, greg.

I mean, they are so ubiquitous now they're everywhere, you hear everyone use them but there's not thought given to what the implications are behind them.

I mean the triggered thing, right Like I think in our circles when we say it, we're joking about it.

People really use that.

Yes, right, yeah, and you are aggressing me if you continue to do the thing.

Guys, guys, guys, guys.

Austin's triggering me right now Bring my hand up.

He's triggering me.

Is this a part of all the safe space stuff that was happening?

Well, I mean, that's all therapeutic stuff, in all fairness.

And so imagine that you plop a high schooler into therapy and undiscerning, and the parents are like, well, we don't want to hold back, so we think the therapist is going to help them.

And then, all of a sudden, that therapist is actually planting these faulty ideas that their kids need to be protected.

Anyone that opposes you is not safe, and if something is uncomfortable for you, you need to recognize that's a trigger for your PTSD.

And now we have this young person in high school starting to self-conceptualize in therapeutic ways.

So don't be surprised when they're 22 or 23,.

And that's just how they think of themselves and they're being dead serious.

You're triggering me.

You mistreated me as a kid, and how did that happen?

Very formative years.

They were therapized in a way.

Man.

I've seen this breakup at church.

There was this person I knew that started speaking gossip about other people in the church.

Who was that?

Started to be divisive.

Name rhymes with Schmig Schmumfert and you know when she was gently approached with Schmake Schmumfert and when she was gently approached like hey, you're making claims about somebody.

We need to know if this is true and if it's not true, you need to repent.

The response was I no longer feel safe around that person around you.

I no longer feel safe around that person around you.

I no longer feel safe.

And that was it.

That was like the conversation was over and when we said what?

do you mean?

Did that trigger you?

What do you?

mean by no?

longer feeling safe.

Do you think someone's going to assault you?

Do you?

think somebody's going to raise their voice at you.

No, I just no longer feel safe having these conversations and it was like how can we help?

here it's a shutdown.

It's a total shutdown.

It's like how are we pursuing reconciliation, how are we pursuing peacefulness within the church when it's just like, well, I don't feel safe, I'm out, yeah.

And, in all fairness, it's like you may not feel safe, but sometimes you have to say but am I unsafe?

Am I walking by my feelings?

rather than my faith.

Also, why is safe so important?

We shouldn't feel safe if there's sin in my heart.

I don't want to be safe from my own sin If I'm in sin.

I'm not safe.

Yes, you know, greg, I have a really burning question, because this is a word that I hear often in a context that that really, you know, riles me up in a sense, maybe triggers me, I don't know.

But should you say, this triggers me yeah, um, it's, and I don't know.

You would know better than I if this is, if this comes from the modern, you know the therapeutic move, you know, but that Is there a point, not.

Not Feeling depressed.

Yeah, it's the word shame.

So there's this thing I hear all the time, you know, I just feel shame.

I don't want to feel shame and shame, but scripturally, like scripture talks about how they no longer know how to blush right, it's like they've forgotten how to be ashamed.

I think shame in connection with sin is a good thing, like we should be ashamed when we're living in sin or in rebellion.

But there's a sort of a version of like no, no, I don't want to feel shame, so don't talk to me about that stuff.

Is that from the modern kind of yeah?

it is.

I mean, some of it is philosophical because we expect to be affirmed, you know, back to the expressive individualism that Carl Truman talked about a few years ago.

I don't want you to critique me in any way.

So then what's the solution for shame?

To just confess it, and then I'll go on my social media confess it.

I'll talk to everybody about it.

There's no reason for me to be ashamed.

I told you about it.

But shame is actually a vehicle to lead you to repentance.

So you don't want to torpedo the vehicle.

It has a purpose and you can have shame in and of itself.

That's good shame when you have unrepentant sin.

That's God's kindness to restore you back and it's part of His love Hebrews 12.

He disciplines the kids that he loves.

If you didn't experience that shame, honestly, you should feel worse and have greater concerns.

So, shame, where does it come from?

Yeah, it's therapize.

There's the false guilt stuff, probably more from the 70s.

There's the expressive individualism stuff.

But it's interesting because the remedy for shame is confession but not repentance.

I'm just going to tell everybody about it but I'm not actually going to change from it.

And even in counseling people will just say well, I just got to tell you this.

I just got to tell someone and get this off my chest and it's like well, that might be the start, but it's not the finish line.

There is repentance from sin.

That's still needed.

Ray hates that word repentance.

Sorry, you want to get off the job.

What part did Sigmund Freud play in what we're talking about?

Was he the godfather of modern psychology?

In America.

It was a guy named William James and Freud was in Europe doing his thing when William James really started psychology in Harvard and psychoanalysis was the trendsetter for a while, which is all talk, therapy, psychoanalysis like associations.

There wasn't medicine and what was thought is that psychoanalysis was archaic.

We're going to move into the biological era, where we're treating the source of the issue.

We're going to find the biological era where we're treating the source of the issue.

We're gonna find the biological cause and in the 80s that was the new hope that we could kind of leave the dark ages of psychoanalysis behind us and move into psychiatry.

But the promise to find a biological cause it has not come through yet.

Like we're not able to say yes, this is why you are depressed.

We're gonna test you for this.

We're gonna test you for this biologically to show that you have ADHD or anxiety.

So Freud was neglected and then came back and I think he's in a place where it's more ill repute right now.

Everything has a biological reason and Freud was more focused on the inner person.

I want to go back to a phrase you used earlier because I think it's super important.

We probably used it 100 episodes ago, but it's expressive individualism, which is a phrase coined by Robert Ballard in his book Idols of the Heart.

Truman uses it quite a bit in his book and what expressive individualism essentially means is that it's the view of the self.

You quoted the Heidelberg Catechism earlier has a proper view of self.

The chief endaman is to glorify God and enjoy him forever.

Expressive individualism inverts that, in which says that the self is expressed from the inside out and isolated, separated from any authority, parent, religion, nation, anything else.

This expressive individualism is the follow your heart mantra.

It's whatever I find inside of myself.

That is my authentic self and I need to express it and demand others around me to adhere to that expressive self.

It's a modern way of looking at the individual, a traditional way of looking at the individual, a traditional way of the looking at the individuals through nation, through family.

A gospel way of looking at the individual is seeing the self as made by God and known by God.

And I want to say one other thing, because you guys talk about shame and guilt.

I think that's such an important conversation and the way I phrased it and I know I'm sort of I'm creating categories and using two different categories for shame and guilt I think it's helpful, though Feel free to correct me.

What I like to communicate to people is guilt is a gift by God inviting you to repentance.

Guilt is important for us to understand our sin and need for grace.

However, shame can be the reluctance, the denial of grace.

If your guilt leads you to shame, you're not receiving or you're not understanding the grace that has been given to you and you can get stuck where shame is ultimately reprieved by grace.

Grace is the thing that tells you, yes, you are more flawed than you could ever imagine, but you are also more loved and forgiven that you'd ever dare dream.

That reality of grace frees you from shame.

Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, oscar, and I want to share my thoughts on it.

And, greg, I'd love you to give us your perspective.

I think that my perspective is biblically guilt leads, guilt should lead to shame, in that we have a sense of remorse and a sense of regret over what we've done and that carries shame with it.

I'm ashamed that I've done this.

I'm ashamed of myself that I committed the sin.

That shame that's created from guilt or conviction maybe should lead to repentance.

Once that repentance happens, we walk away from that shame.

So again, I understand that it's important to clarify that we don't walk around in this shame.

But there's this whole sense of like.

I don't want to feel that, but to me that's like a sense of pain.

It's like saying I don't want to feel heart pain.

If I'm having a heart attack, yes, you do.

That should send you to get help, right.

So that's my perspective on that.

It's that for the unbeliever there should be shame in that they're rebelling against the Lord.

That should then lead them to repentance.

It should free them from the shame.

And for the believer there should be that again, that sense of shame.

I've just rebelled against God right now.

I just committed this heinous sin.

I'm ashamed.

I feel conviction.

I'm ashamed Lord forgive me Knowing that we're clothed with the righteousness of Christ, knowing that we have in him forgiveness.

You know, in his blood we have redemption.

Through his blood, forgiveness of sins, and that leads us to repentance.

Yeah, Greg's about to shame you both with a nice I'm ashamed of my shaming.

Yeah, I totally agree.

I think there's a if we're getting down into the weeds with shame and guilt.

I totally agree.

I think there's a if we're getting down into the weeds with shame and guilt.

So shame in and of itself can be unbiblical.

Romans 1.16,.

I'm not ashamed of the gospel.

So if you are ashamed of the gospel, that brings guilt, you know.

So there is a relationship, or?

2 Timothy 1, don't be ashamed of me, paul, tells Timothy.

So how do we start to parse it out?

Well, people do have sensitive consciences that have to be retrained with the Word of God, and they're ashamed of things that aren't actually a sin, right.

So we go back to Romans 14, and we say, okay, you need to retrain your sensitive conscience with God's Word.

So it's accurate, and you don't feel shame over things that are not inherently sinful or shameful.

So when we say you are indeed guilty, there should be shame.

In 2 Corinthians 7, 9 through 10, is that is either going to turn into worldly grief or godly grief, meaning you're either going to lead to repentance or you're just going to feel bad about it and not change.

So repentance is really that capstone of why we feel shame in the first place, not just so we feel lousy, but that we would actually turn from our sin and be restored back to God.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm just saying like if a kid walks up to his mom who professes Christ, spits in her face and punches her, he should feel ashamed of himself.

There should be shame and that should lead to repentance, which leads to the relief of that shame, would you say that's accurate, yeah, okay.

So I can't help but think of David, psalm 51, and what we're talking about.

His shame, his deeds done in darkness were brought to light, and he brought it to God.

Yeah, amen, yeah, it's good, yeah.

So, greg, I want us, in the time remaining, to really get into the whole thing with the diagnoses of things like PTSD and you know, schizophrenia, things of that sort in that vein, because there are a lot of people listening to us right now that, I have no question, are on medication, chronic depression.

You know the whole host of things and maybe you can highlight some of them.

I love the balance in your book because you highlighted the fact that it doesn't mean you don't have PTSD as an example, but it just means that it's not a mental illness.

So I'd love for you to clarify that.

You also and this is important to highlight for anyone listening you also say hey, if you're on medication, don't just stop right, so you need to go see your doctor and work on that if you believe you need to be off of that.

You also talk about how you don't say that all medication is bad per se and some people, if it helps them, depending on a few factors, that's fine.

So I'd love you to speak to that.

Yeah, most people that hear about this book immediately have an objection, which is but mental illnesses are real.

And that is a statement that actually needs some nuance.

Because if you understand the mind and the brain distinction, as the Bible teaches it, then to use the illness term of pathology, biological reason, disruption of cells, whatever you're calling that, then your mind can't get ill in a biological sense.

It can't get the closest you're going to see inner person being sick, Jeremiah 79, the heart is desperately wicked sick, like that's the closest you're going to get.

So can we say there's, there's no category of mental illness, and yet you're still depressed.

Yes we can, Because depression is not a mental illness, but depression can still exist.

What we are calling depression can still exist.

Can a person have ADHD and that not be a mental illness?

But depression can still exist.

What we are calling depression can still exist.

Can a person have ADHD and that not be a mental illness?

Yes, we can.

I think I've got it.

I do Seriously, I just attention deficit disorder.

Is it as well as you just lose your attention and think about other things all the time?

But think of your giftedness too and what the Lord's allowed you to do, because you're able to do multiple things, you're energetic, and what happens is we stigmatize a certain gifting and the kid that can't sit still in school must have a disorder.

Who's most diagnosed with ADHD?

Junior high boys.

So in that way, can you be a busy boy in junior high?

Yes, you can, but that doesn't mean you have a mental illness.

So what I would love to reframe for people is that what you have been told, your label all of life, what you have been told, is not an illness of your mind.

That category doesn't exist.

Like that's a false construct, but yet you can still struggle with that thing.

So now, what should that do?

That should then open us up to.

Well, what does the Bible say about sadness, or being a busybody in school, or struggling with anxiety?

What does the Bible say about those things?

Let's frame this through the lens of Scripture.

And what does the Bible say about meds?

Well, meds are not inherently sinful.

If a person's going to make an argument that medications are sinful, I mean it's first of all not true.

Like Paul encourages wine for the sake of the stomach 1 Timothy 5.23.

Like you can use medicine for medical purposes, even things that we don't know why it's helping.

It's just helping, like Tylenol I don't know why I have a headache sometimes, it's just helping relieve the headache, you know.

So in the book I try to make it clear that you can.

If you have God-honoring motivations and you've obtained them legally, you can use psychotropics in a way that honors the Lord.

It doesn't make you a weaker, lesser person.

But you just have to recognize what they're doing.

They're not treating the root cause, they're treating the symptoms of the cause.

And are they symptom-helping?

Yes for sure you're going to say but let me ask you this so like but is it best for a Christian, if possible, to avoid medications in the sense that should they try to treat the mind issues versus just, you know, doing that?

I mean, you know what I'm saying, Because I want to make sure we hit that balance.

What I don't want to do is I don't want anyone right now to just throw their pills in the trash.

That's dangerous.

But at the same time I don't want people to say well, I heard Greg say that it's fine to use medication.

Is there a better way to try to minimize the need for that, and maybe it's a last resort?

It's a great question, right.

Maybe it's a last resort.

It's a great question, right, because what is the tipping point to where you say you need to be on some meds?

Right in the book I talk about triage moments not sleeping, not eating, like oftentimes.

People are hospitalized when they're so restless that they have no choice.

They're gonna be medicated.

But in normal everyday functioning, are you able to take meds and still honor the Lord and be faithful?

Are you able to take meds and still honor the Lord and be faithful?

You know?

Are you blaming it on the meds?

Are you unfaithful?

You know your anger that got out of control.

You blamed it on not taking your meds that day and I think if that's happening, then you really are starting to use your meds in a way that they were not intended to be, which is a crutch.

Or to blame shift to your medications what's actually happening in your own heart.

But is it a first resort?

No, if there's no medical evidence that this is a biological problem and I'm not in a triage circumstance, I'm sleeping okay then what should we do?

Let's be open to what God can do when he brings about transformation of our mind.

Let's go to someone that's going to use the Scripture, biblical counseling, to help renew our mind and then see how it goes.

I think that would be the best step.

If there's no medical evidence that this is a medical problem, then let's start with the inner person and see what God does.

What sort of blind spots do you think biblical counseling as it is right now with the books that we have from really godly people?

I'd love for you to name some of those names or some of those books for people to start.

But what are we missing that still needs to be written or go into greater detail for today's church?

Some of the godly people.

Heath Lambert.

He's done a lot of writing.

He used to be the director of ACBC.

Dale Johnson's our current director.

We have a couple of fellows at Fortis that are doing the same work, so if the listeners wanted to get connected to more, I would look up Fortis or those two guys.

I think some of the blind spots are that we've been downstream saying why this therapy is bad, this therapy is silly, but we actually haven't been dealing with the upstream issues, like why do we have this confusion in the first place?

And that is actually going to turn the tide a little bit.

So instead of saying hey, you're going and doing primal scream therapy that's wacky man.

Like why would you do that?

Let's talk about why you're inclined to go there in the first place and if biblical counseling can do that, I think people will continue to come to biblical counseling for substantive answers, not just critiques.

Yeah, but great, yeah, I mean those things they do like they actually put someone in a room, they just scream their head off right, and that's supposed to.

Isn't that what you heard them upstairs for Of?

course that's what I was meaning.

Yeah, but they really do stuff like that, right?

So if I just critique that, but I don't actually construct something helpful, it's like well, you're just kind of being a curmudgeon, not really being helpful in that way.

So quick question do you see psychotherapy also influencing the gentle parenting movement?

Yeah, of course that's another one that makes me mad.

Yeah, of course that's another one that makes me mad.

Yeah, of course, Read the Bad.

Therapy book by Abigail Schreier and she shows how kids that went to therapy it actually contributed to their problems.

So it's iatrogenic.

It made things worse and seriously, we all know this.

Like you want to ruin your day, just wake up every day thinking about how you feel and make that the focal point of your day.

It just sounds like an awful way to ruin your day, doesn't it?

Yeah, question, so let's take someone like Ray.

Let's let's.

I want the psychiatrist chair right now.

I want Ray to lie down.

No, but seriously, like we've all said, forever, ray has like the most extreme case of ADHD in the universe.

He agrees, right, right, oh, yeah, right, yeah, okay so, but let's take someone like Ray and put him on ADHD medication.

What would you say that would have done to Ray, his personality, his creativity, right?

I?

mean, imagine it would have slowed you down just a tad.

You know that people that describe themselves as ADHD, it's like racing in their mind, there's no tranquility, it's like something's always churning and the things that I don't know.

If this is like a true this is where you're at, or if it's like, no, this is not at all what it's like.

But if you're on meds, what it does is it slows you down and sometimes it zombifies you.

So, yeah, you can sit in a chair still now.

Congratulations all junior high boys.

But that's not necessarily the goal.

The goal is that you would learn how to steward your gifts, and if someone's watching this and they're super busy, they're go, go, go, go go.

They're the Energizer bunny.

I think you say praise the Lord, the Lord's made you that way.

You're never going to be a librarian and a very small, slow copious.

What a nightmare.

Right, that would be a prison sentence for you, because you have something going on every day and you're engaged in evangelism, living waters, whatever you're doing.

So in that way, I think we just say that's giftings.

Do we medicate giftedness in the body of Christ?

No, we learn how to utilize it for the glory of God and the good of the body.

That's the goal.

Ray just wrote three books as you answered that question.

You know, Greg, that's so freeing what you just shared is so freeing to a lot of people, because those that buy into well, I have a mental illness.

First of all, I think it leads them to justify sin, and then, secondly, it disheartens them and hinders them because it's like well, I have a mental illness.

First of all, I think it leads them to justify sin, and then, secondly, it disheartens them and hinders them because it's like oh, I guess I got this and I have a problem.

And then they medicate.

and then they.

I mean, I seriously can't imagine how so hindered Ray would be had he not just functioned in the gift God has given him.

I love that you highlighted that's a gift, that's right?

And what if he's told from junior high you have a problem with ADHD and you need to medicate it?

And it's going to be hard to focus.

What you seriously start to do is that's how you think about yourself, like, oh, I can't do this because of my ADHD, instead of thinking, well, what can I do based off of my giftedness?

Yeah, that's so good.

Well, greg, this has been phenomenal.

Is there anything we've missed in the last minute or two that you wouldn't want to highlight, or do you feel we've covered it all?

Yeah, where the book can be purchased would be a good thing.

Yeah, yeah, we'll get to that, but I want to just hit any substance Sure.

I would just offer.

The reality is, my goal is not to disturb or to create a dust-up over a secular therapeutic.

My goal is for the skeptical, discerning Christian to hear that the Bible has better answers and that the sufficiency of Christ isn't like cute and all Sunday morning you know, like that's a neat story of Jonah and the big fish, but the sufficiency of Christ means we have all that we need and it's not like adequate, like oh well, I guess we'll get by with Christ, but it's superior.

And if you are in Christ you don't have to be your label, you don't have to be your diagnosis.

Your kid doesn't have to be their label, your medication doesn't have to define how you're going to live your life.

Like.

Be open to what Christ says in his word, because His answers aren't just adequate, they're superior.

No, Do you agree with me, greg, that the whole AA thing of I'm John Shlomo and I'm an alcoholic the guy who hasn't touched a drop of alcohol in 40 years do you agree that that's hogwash?

When do you get to the point?

In other words that in other words like no, if you're a Christian and you've repented, you're no longer an alcoholic type thing.

Do you agree with that?

Right.

A Christian isn't identified by their sin.

You're either in Christ.

So 1 Corinthians 6, 11, such were some of you.

That's not you Amen.

Yeah, the way it's phrased is, I am Like decades down the line like, no, you're not.

You're in Christ or you're outside of Christ.

Pal.

Love and a sound mind.

That's what we have in Christ.

Amen.

Well, greg, this has been phenomenal, brother, the book is Lies.

My Therapist Told Me why Christians Should Aim for More Than Just Treating Symptoms.

You can get it on Amazon and everywhere else fine books are sold.

Greg, how can people connect with your ministry and repeat that website for ACBC2 at the end?

Sure yeah, I would say look me up on any place that podcasts are going Apple, spotify and look for Transformed with Dr Greg Gifford and obviously Fortis Institute, if you want to look at fortisinstituteorg.

I mentioned biblicalcounselingcom for finding a biblical counselor, so if you're watching this wanting a biblical counselor, that's where I would start.

Yeah, and on the website you can put in your location and they'll help you find counselors near you.

Well, greg, this has been phenomenal brother.

Thank you so much for the free therapy today.

We enjoyed it On.

Ray.

One of the funny things about mentioning Ray in middle school is that he's the same size.

Are there meds for that?

Sign me up, I'm sure I'll take it Well friends the name again is Greg E Gifford.

Don't forget the E.

And there you have it.

Don't forget the treasure chest, the Living Waters mug, the Evidence Study Bible, living Waters TV, alllivingwaterscom, oh, and the podcast YouTube channel, don YouTube channel.

Don't forget to check it out.

Thank you for joining us, friends.

Yeah, we'll see you here next time.

Oh, by the way, don't forget podcast at livingwaterscom with your thoughts, comments and criticisms of Ray, mark and Oscar.

Thank you for joining us, friends.

We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters Podcast, where we, except for Greg Gifford, have no idea what we're doing.

Analyze that.