Fawn Nguyen: Hi everyone, it's Fawn Nguyen. As we head into the second half of the school year, here's a gentle reminder: Do less, but do it better. 

Ana Torres: This is Ana Torres and welcome to Beyond My Years from Amplify. On Beyond My Years, we know teachers never stop learning. That's why we bring you tried-and-true tips, incredible stories, and research-backed strategies directly from educators and leading experts.

And once again, I'm here with Classroom Insider Eric Cross. How you doing Eric? 

Eric Cross: Good, Ana. Good to see ya. Hello to all of our listeners. 

Ana Torres: Eric, this is our final episode of 2025. It has flown by my friend. How are you feeling? 

Eric Cross: Great. I feel like I've had a custom PD by like all these all stars. We were able to reach out to some of the people that were like top in their field or really getting after it in their districts, and you got to interview them and I got to glean from it.

Ana Torres: Well, and you mentioned PD. New season. Fresh season. We evolved, right? To really talk about like challenges that teachers are having out there. 

Eric Cross: The longer you do this, the more you realize you don't know. Yes. And so many of your guests, when you ask them if they feel like they're a seasoned educator, there's oftentimes this hesitancy.

Ana Torres: Yes. Always a pause like, huh? 

Eric Cross: I think these educators, the consistent thing with all of them, as they all continue to learn and to evolve–because as people evolve and change and society changes, our teaching practices have have to too. 

Ana Torres: With all of that said, we're doing something a little different today.

We're revisiting one of our very first episodes with this new lens that we've developed. After we listen back, Eric and I are going to pull out some fresh takeaways and tips for you to use in your classroom right away. We're also going to look ahead and give a bit of a sneak peek preview of what's coming up on Beyond My Years in 2026.

And just maybe we'll get to hear an update from the guest at the center of today's episode. 

Eric Cross: Sounds great. I'm ready to jump in the time machine and head back a year ago. 

Ana Torres: All right, I think it's time to listen back to one of our truly favorite Season 1 conversations featuring my colleague and friend and leading math thinker, Fawn Nguyen.

So today's guest is someone who has persevered throughout her life. She's a longtime teacher, a beautiful just writer, a renowned math educator. I can't wait to talk with Fawn Nguyen. Welcome Fawn. 

Fawn Nguyen: Thank you so much for having me. I'm honored to be here. I'm honored to speak with you. And Ana, you promised me fun. We'll have a fun conversation.

Ana Torres: vWe are going to have a really, you know, really good conversation, Fawn. And so, can I ask you, how many years were you in the classroom?

Fawn Nguyen: I was in the classroom for 30 even years. Most of it was in mathematics. I say the first 10 actually was in science, and then the next 20 in math.

Ana Torres: Amazing. 30. So we're, we're talking 10 plus 10 plus 10.

Fawn Nguyen: Right.

Ana Torres: And actually we can deconstruct it a lot of different ways there, Fawn, miss mathematician.

Fawn Nguyen: And my math, my math says I must have started when I was 15.

Ana Torres: Well, you look like you did. I mean, hey, let's talk about the amazing skin you have. Now, three decades, Fawn. Three decades. So what would you say is the most important lesson that you learned over those 30 years, Fawn?

Fawn Nguyen: Be myself. I know that gets, um, it's probably generic for lots of things, but remember, I guess we have to be with these children day in and day out. So school was my kind of home, my second home, if not my primary home. The amount of time I had spent. You know, I tell the kids, yeah, I slept overnight here last night, you guys. We spend so much time and it's day in and day out. And, you know, for some of us, it's actually more interaction than we have with our own family. And it is family, right? So it's hard to be somebody else for that length of time, to sustain that. So be yourself. You're gonna make mistakes. But what's nice about, if we think of it as family, is that we get to apologize, and tomorrow is a new day, that kind of thing.

Ana Torres: So that's interesting that you say that, because that's, you know, as you're saying, you evolved to that point, right. Fawn? It's not something that was automatic and instant?

Fawn Nguyen: For sure.

Ana Torres:  Being our authentic selves can sometimes be a struggle, right?

Fawn Nguyen: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, at first it was, I felt like, yeah, I'm the teacher, and I am, and let's not forget, I am the teacher. I am the adult in the room, but it doesn't have to be where I'm the knowledge holder, that kind of thing. I was okay. Eventually I was okay, especially in mathematics. I started out teaching science, but in mathematics it was, you know, that we're learning this together. There's that togetherness. And I only brought in problems where I had struggled with these non-routine problems. So the kids knew that, you're getting this because I had fun playing with it. And, you know, I share stories. I mean, I remember having, you know, in teacher school, we were told, you know, don't smile and all this, you know, it was rather strict. And I tried to do that, but I failed at that. I mean, I share, you know, stories, things that happened with my kids, my family, what happened at grocery, just normal things. So they know you're human. And I was able to let go, you know, of this authority figure, but just more of an advocate for them.

Ana Torres: And can I tell you that you just said something that resonated with me, Fawn, about being human? And I think one of the mistakes I always feel that I made is not being my authentic self, my first year of teaching. Because it goes back to what you said. You feel like you've gotta be setting the tone, right, the authority in the room? And wow, what a mistake that was, not to allow students to see us be our authentic selves. And that was something that I reflected on. And actually, one of my mentor teachers spoke to me and said, you're a fabulous teacher, Ana. You know what you're doing. Just be yourself when you're with the children.

Fawn Nguyen: Yeah, yeah.

Ana Torres: Because they got, they're gonna pick up on the fact that you're not being yourself.

Fawn Nguyen: Right.

Ana Torres: And kind of test your boundaries there.

Fawn Nguyen: I'm just thinking, because we want kids to open up, right? We want, it has to be an exchange. We can't be just receiving, asking kids to be yourself, because we say that to the kids. But yeah. So I want the kids to share stories and, you know, just feel like a family. We're supporting each other and we'll have our struggles, we'll make the mistakes, but we're here to cheer each other on. You know, I try to go to the kids' games, just kind of be outside of the classroom, because that's what we, a classroom is this one period, this one class. It's, it has its boundaries. But our relationship doesn't have to have those boundaries in the sense of, school is part of their life, teaching is part of my life. But we can blur that edge, just in terms of storytelling.

Ana Torres: Absolutely. So we hit on the topic of looking at your trajectory of your three-decade career, three decade even, as you said. And I love that you're smiling, 'cause we're all gonna continue to have fun here. But I did wanna ask you this. Do you feel like you're a seasoned educator?

Fawn Nguyen: Gosh, no. I hope I continue to learn and I make myself learn, that kind of thing, because there's so much to learn. New things come around. They are kind of an iteration of something I already know, but it's kind of refreshing to be either reminded or there's a little twist to it or digital age, right? So I'm new to that. I will admit it's not brand-new learning. It's like, oh, I've not heard of that before. Because anything that I feel like is new, it actually has, it traces back. You know, when I dig deeper, it's like, oh my gosh, this was a hundred years ago, it was just by a different name. And that's comforting to know, because we are not trying to invent anything new, because that's really hard. That's really hard. It's just, we need to do it better. We need to implement it better. We need to be kind of speaking the same language. You know, teachers work so hard already, so, so hard already. And if it comes off as something brand new, it's like, "Okay, I need something else taken off my plate before you add something new." And so, it's very comforting when we say, "I know you're already doing parts of this already, but here's a little shift instead of a new do-over," 'cause that's overwhelming.

Ana Torres: Now, I know that you mentioned, you know, when I asked you the question, "Hey, do you think you're a seasoned educator?" And like, you immediately answered like, "Well, no," because we're always learning, right? We're always evolving and we're always learning. But do you find that there is value in hearing from seasoned educators? You know, I have actually been in education 30 years, half of my career in higher education as an administrator and also part of faculty. But I'm gonna tell you what, there's no way I could have made it through my first really three years, and more importantly, my first year, without a strong mentor teacher that had done this before me.

Fawn Nguyen: Right. For sure.

Ana Torres: And then there's sometimes that tension, right? With new teachers, veteran teachers, and different perspectives. But I was very appreciative of my mentor teacher, who wasn't necessarily too much older than me, but she had been an educator in spirit for a very long time. Right? And so she offered me her words of wisdom. So, do you think that there's value in hearing from seasoned educators such as yourself?

Fawn Nguyen: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I seek them out. And experience means good and bad. We wanna learn from both. I certainly didn't want a mentor who never made a mistake, who always, 'cause I'm not gaining anything. I think the more authentic, right, the more vulnerable our mentors are, to say, "I did that, too." It's just like, okay, so that I'm not, you know, gosh, I'm the first teacher to ever make this mistake. That kind of thing. And I'm hoping that I can do that for younger teachers. If I could give one advice to young teachers, it would be to hold high expectations of their students. I'd say hold high, other than, you know, be your authentic self. Because again, that's more generic, but just have really high expectations of the students, and I say that because we do that out of respect for them. I've encountered enough occasions where I hear teachers kind of doubting that if their kids could do something, kind of holding back a little bit. So it's like we don't know that. We don't know what they can do or cannot do. Obviously you can't, you know, grade level wise, it's not, you don't share a calculus problem with a fifth grader, for example. It's not like that. But just thinking, all people are capable of thinking, and we can do that. We can have high expectations of them and still be very compassionate and be the biggest cheerleaders, right? Provide that support. And it also helped me, I remember, because classroom management is a big thing with young teachers. I mean, that's what kind of, you know, did it for me early on that made me almost quit. So it's about separating the behavior from the person, right. Really separating the behavior from the person. And another thing, separate what they don't know at the time from what they're capable of, right? Because I mean, the same stuff that I would hope other people would give me grace for, because I don't know how to do this thing right now, please don't judge me that I can't do other things. And it happens with students so often. They're brilliant. Let's just start there. They're brilliant. Maybe not on this particular question that you're asking on this particular task, but they're brilliance can shine through in other ways. So just have that mindset, right, of capable beings.

Ana Torres: We're gonna definitely get to that story of nearly quitting in just a bit. So hold on, listeners, for that story. And I liked what you also said, you know, something that also resonated with me. I think if we give students kind of that power of knowing, "I believe that you can." And keeping those standards high, like you said, students rise to those high standards, Fawn.

Fawn Nguyen: They always do. They always do.

Ana Torres: We've seen it time and time again. It is us as adults that put kind of parameters and put our own biases in place and restrict students , and 'cause we don't want them to struggle, right?

Fawn Nguyen: Right.

Ana Torres: That's on us as educators to kind of release ourselves with that. Because I think productive struggle is a good thing, right?

Fawn Nguyen: It is, it's, you know, it's what learning is.

Ana Torres: Exactly.

Fawn Nguyen: It's what learning is.

Ana Torres: And I, you know, and again, thanks for sharing that. Not only has Fawn mentioned, she's already giving us little nuggets of advice early on, right? Now we're gonna kind of segue into what I feel is going to be just an amazing conversation about your journey coming to the U.S. From Vietnam. Can you tell us that story of how you actually arrived to the U.S.?

Fawn Nguyen: My pleasure. Yeah. And now that so many years have passed, I'm not so emotional about it, I hope not, anyway, but, um, in 1976, right in April when the North took over the South, and we tried to escape along with, you know, the video footage that you see, people hang onto the airplanes. And we escaped by sea. We tried to, uh, do the sea route, and we didn't make it. And, actually, my parents and I got separated. So that was gnarly. That was really, really scary. It was pitch dark at night and gunshots were fired. That's what I remember. So when light came, morning came, we were reunited luckily, and that was it. So a failed attempt. So we had to go back home.

Ana Torres: Wow.

Fawn Nguyen: And so, in 1976, a year later, in September, we tried again. That was the planning from my oldest brother. My brothers planned it. And, so we tried again the second time. It was third day, the third day, or the fourth day. And we're just stranded. The boat had ran out of oil, so.

Ana Torres: Wow.

Fawn Nguyen: We're just kind of waiting to die at sea. Yeah. I had, what I went through, it's, yeah, it's a story someday I'd like to pencil down. It's just, um, I was dying. I was dying of thirst. I had been throwing up, you know, seasick all those days. And, so now I'm, you know, more alert after there's nothing to throw up, I guess. And to learn that now I'm really thirsty and hungry and there's nothing left. And so I'm dying of thirst, and delirium, I wanna say, has sat in. I remember my sister praying over me with the rosary and, um, yeah. And anyway, from a distance, we, because when, you know, you're looking just at the sky meeting the horizon from a distance, we did see a speck of something and it's like, oh my gosh, there's something there. Yeah. And since we can't move anymore, we're just, the boat doesn't move. And so my brothers, the guys just, you know, took off their white shirts and just waved for hours. I guess I need to talk to my brothers about how long that was from the time that we saw that speck of something in the horizon to the time that it finally morphed into a ship. Mind you, the whole time we're thinking, you know, are these good people? Pirates? Who knows, but we're gonna die anyway if we don't [laughs] get some help, right?

Ana Torres: Right.

Fawn Nguyen: So there was that. And luckily, of course they were, it's a fishing vessel. It's a huge fishing vessel. And they came and literally rescued us. They rescued us. They even sent one of their men on our boat, you know, provided us with oil for the boat to move with food. And he guided us to shore. So yeah, one of the men guided us to shore. I remember news crew came and, uh, yeah. Just 'cause, you know, it was like, whoa, here's a stranded, 13 people, there were 13 of us. My brothers, yeah, and then his friends and other people. So, yeah. So that was, um, I was 11 years old at the time.

Ana Torres: I was gonna ask you that, and you did mention like, you can talk about this now without getting emotional. But that is a very profound story. I wanna thank you for sharing that with us. How do you think that shaped you as you became an educator, Fawn?

Fawn Nguyen: I was always, I mean, that experience, right, kind of, very grateful, the big "g" word. I am, I'm more grateful than any other person I know. And I think people who just go through some stuff like that, right, near death, are just grateful for every single day. I am grateful for people. I'm grateful for opportunities. I'm very thankful and don't take anything for granted. Ironically, it made me, because left behind were both my parents and two sisters, so the three brothers and one sister, so there were five of us, right, three brothers, myself and my sister. So we left behind two sisters and my parents. I knew they couldn't go to school. They had to help with the family, or, the best opportunities, they didn't have. And I remember when my students, you know, didn't wanna work or something where they just appeared lazy to me, I'm like, "If my sisters, if they had this opportunity," that kind of thing. So that made me kind of emotional. It's like, "Gosh, if only you knew," that kind of thing. It's just, I just felt like, "Okay, you're not taking advantage of what you have in this country, right? It is public education, it's so much. So everywhere I look, it's like, okay, the opportunities are there, you just need to work harder or whatever. So I had that mindset all the time about, you have the opportunities, take advantage of it, because not everybody does.

Ana Torres: Well, and in you speaking of that, like you mentioned, when you would have kind of that perception of students like not working to their capability or appearing quote-unquote lazy, it's like, "Look at all I've gone through," right? Like, "and I'm still here and I made it."

Fawn Nguyen: Right, and then I got older, as I get older and wiser, and realized it's not that simple. My perception is my perception only. And that, you know, I don't have any idea what the family life is like. Because yeah, it's easy to judge people instead of finding out what is behind the struggles everybody goes through. So that just comes with age. I mean, you know, when I, you start out teaching, I was a kid, now looking back, right?

Ana Torres: Right.

Fawn Nguyen: I'm almost 60 years old and I was in my twenties. I was a kid myself. And so very limited views and very biased, right? I had my own biases. But as I learned and learn more about those students, it's like I need to give 'em the grace that I want people to give me. And no, it's not because they're lazy, but at least at the time, I always had this belief, to this day, which is parents are doing their best. I mean, most parents are doing their best. And so that helps me navigate. It's like, they care about their children, period. I kind of cringe when people say, "You know, the parents don't care." No, no. The parents do care. Yeah. That's, that's a hard one for me just to listen to. They really do care. Maybe they don't have the resources to help.

Ana Torres: Right. Is this a story that you ever shared with your students at all?

Fawn Nguyen: I shared about the escape, for sure, yeah. I think. And sometimes they would say, "Miss Nguyen, tell us more about 'Nam." I was like, okay. Alright. Yeah. They do love the stories, even if it meant, sometimes I know it meant, you know, they don't wanna do the work right now and they just wanna hear more stories. But yeah, we definitely, I bring in what I learned from it, is the idea. I don't mind telling kids the mistakes I've made because I'm hoping that they're listening to learn from it and not repeat it, is the whole idea. And to admit when we're wrong, which is really difficult, especially for young children.

Ana Torres: Right. So I'm gonna jump a little bit now to, was there a particular moment that you realized, you know, "I wanna be a teacher." And you mentioned earlier, like you actually are a kind of science, math, so I'm gonna call you a STEM superstar here, right?

Fawn Nguyen: [laughs].

Ana Torres: Because I'm a literacy gal. But math and science were the actual subjects that I actually love to teach the most because I always felt that I wasn't good at math or I wasn't good at science. So I wanna hear from you, Miss STEM lady. When did that hit you?

Fawn Nguyen: Well, I'll go back a little bit about, in terms of mathematics and Vietnam. It was not my favorite subject for sure when it came to learning the multiplication table. And it's sadly, that's my biggest memory of it, was, you know, my childhood school in Vietnam, was getting hit, you know, on my open palm, when the teacher asked us to multiply two numbers. And if the answer didn't come fast enough, we would also get hit. And, I don't know if any other countries do this, but in Vietnam, we were ranked, we don't have letter grades, not back when I was in school, we didn't have letter grades. So we were simply ranked. So if there are 30 students, we would be a one if we were top of the class and 30, if we were in last place. Brutally clear cut. Luckily I was never in last nor did I ever make first place. Maybe I was top third. But I remember one school teacher, a male teacher, who never called me by my name. I always remember that, he called me by my sister's name. You know, he referred to me as Kim's sister. And she did really well. She was top of the class. And it didn't help that my dad was a math teacher at the high school. And so there was that comparison all the time. It's like, kind of like, "What happened to you" kind of tone. So when I came over, when I was 11, math became, to the United States, math immediately became my favorite subject because I did not need to know the language most of the time. And I certainly didn't get hit, right. And, so I was, I was ahead of my peers. I remember that. So it made me feel smart. Um, at one point I was given the textbook just to go on my own. So I didn't have any interaction with my classmates and nor with my teacher 'cause she was busy teaching the rest of the class. And up until then, if you look at my grades, I did well in math because I got, you know, I got all As. And so, how did I become a teacher? I'm laughing because that might be the most uninspiring story. I became a teacher, or I decided to go into teaching, because I didn't know what else I could do. I was a pre-med student.

Ana Torres: Oh, wow!

Fawn Nguyen: And only reason I was a pre-med student, because a young man I liked at the time... see this story, I tell the students, "Don't ever do what Miss Nguyen did." So I major in biology slash pre-med, because a boy I liked was doing that. So when this young man and I decided to get married, which I thought at the time, I said, well, we can't have children. I wanted to have children for sure. I knew that. We can't raise children with two doctors in the family. I mean, who's gonna take care of the kids? We'd be busy. And however, my admittedly, my GPA was pretty mediocre, was like 3.4. And I felt like no medical school would accept me. So I never bothered to apply.

Ana Torres: So, Fawn, a 3.4 is considered mediocre?

Fawn Nguyen: For pre-med? Yeah.

Ana Torres: Oh, wow.

Fawn Nguyen: So I started out as a science teacher because my degree is biology. I was hired at the same school that I did my student teaching at.

Ana Torres: Nice.

Fawn Nguyen: And my mentor, yeah, my mentor teacher made me believe that the science textbook the kids were using was too difficult. So I had to do a lot and lots and lots of labs. And we rarely ever opened the textbook. That made it really challenging. So then in my fourth year teaching science, I want to say it was October, so early in the school year when I just had it, I mean, I was crying, especially Sunday night. I was like, oh my gosh, I was miserable. I was stressed from doing so much prep every night and on the weekends, didn't have a life at all. And I thought a handful of students were disrespectful. And we all know that sometimes it just takes one child to disrupt the whole class. So I remember Friday afternoon, I wait until Friday afternoon, when school was out, I told my principal in the hallway that I was quitting. As in, I'm not coming back on Monday. She replied to me as if I had asked her a question. She said, "No, Fawn, you are going to take two weeks off and return after that." And now as I say that, I'm not sure it was two weeks or one week. Two weeks seems awfully generous. I mean, one week is generous, but she said, "Take some time off and I'm gonna hold your job and come back." Well, I didn't wanna argue with her, especially in the hallway. So I did say to her, "Okay, well thank you, but I'm going to call you at the end of the week or two weeks and tell you that I won't be returning." Mind you, we got married. That boy, that young man and I got married, so he's in medical school. And so I was the only income, but I, yeah. It's like, I'll do whatever. Um, so two weeks later on a Friday afternoon, I had my time off. I slept. And destressed. I called the school to ask to speak with the principal. The first weird thing that happened was when our counselor answered the phone, instead of one of our two secretaries, I asked if I could speak with the principal. And she said, "Hold on, let me track her down. I just saw her, she was just right here." Well, it was an unusually long amount of time, I wanna say like five minutes or more just on hold. And then she came back on the phone and said, "I'm sorry, Fawn, I can't find her. Can I take a message?" And I didn't wanna leave my message about quitting with the counselors, but, so I'm trying, I remember trying to figure out what to say next. And then the counselors just said, "Oh, Fawn, by the way, I'm glad I have you on the phone because I need to tell you about the schedule changes that I had to make because, you know, we had to dismiss one of the teachers due to budget cuts." So I said, "Okay, go on." And so she told me about my period six class that is no more. And my period six class was the one that caused me the most stress. So it was, "Now it will be a different class with different students, the kids all got reshuffled" and I just couldn't believe what was happening. You know, why did, was she the one answering the phone and—

Ana Torres: Right.

Fawn Nguyen: Anyway, so I never got to speak to the principal. And to this day, I don't know if that was, sometimes in the back of my mind, "Was that a setup?" I don't know. Right? I never know.

Ana Torres: [laughs]

Fawn Nguyen: Anyway, so I asked her to leave a message for the principal, which is, um, to say thank you and I'll see you on Monday. It's just really scary to think back. I did not have a backup plan, but that's how bad it got. Right? It just shows me how bad it got. And I'm so thankful for the principal, immediately, right, that day, immediately, she said, "No, take some time off." It's like, maybe she heard that before and she knew that we are just desperate for some time off rather than, you know, calling it quits on the whole profession. And I think it had to do with math, too. That's the other thing. That was a shift. I continue to teach science, but then I shifted to teaching mathematics.

Ana Torres: But you did have that feeling of, "I don't know if I can do this anymore." I think many of us in this profession go through kind of cycles of that. Because although this is a very rewarding job and we love to teach and we love to teach children, it can also be a very challenging job. And look at how all of things, the way things happened, you weren't even able to talk to the principal.

Fawn Nguyen: Right.

Ana Torres: To your knowledge, you don't even know if the principal knew about this conversation.

Fawn Nguyen: Right.

Ana Torres: But really looking back, sounds like it could have been planned by the principal [laughs] and the counselor so that you wouldn't leave, right?

Fawn Nguyen: Yeah.

Ana Torres: So how do you feel about the fact that, and even though, let's say this was maybe kind of meant to be, you weren't meant to quit that day, are you glad that you stayed, Fawn?

Fawn Nguyen: Oh, absolutely. Because, absolutely. I think God intervened, right, I have to believe that God intervened and made the counselor take that phone call instead. She did sound surprised. "Oh, you haven't been here? I need to talk to you anyway." But teaching, I, in my next lifetime, I would still teach. I would go back to teaching. That's how much I love it. And I'm meant to retire from the classroom. So I got to a spot, I feel so privileged, a spot when I realized, and I think it's a mind shift, and, you know, something that I would, you know, tell the young teachers is if the shift is, instead of saying, you know, "I have to work tomorrow," it's like, "I get to work tomorrow." I get to teach. Right?

Ana Torres: Wow.

Fawn Nguyen: We get to do this. This is the very difficult job. And I also believe, it's not difficult, it's not worth doing. And so, you know, we get to, amazing, we get to greet these young people, say their names, honor them for being present and doing their best. I would never say it's not hard, but at the same time, because of what I went through, and then COVID didn't help, right? So I totally understand. I totally understand. The landscape has changed somewhat. Especially if you don't have the support, you don't feel like you have the support, from admin, whatever the reasons, I mean, all the reasons, I have to believe all the reasons are valid. So how do you find joy in it then? If it, it's so difficult. What can we let go, right? What we can let go and find joy, 'cause we have to.

Ana Torres: It is a privilege, right? To be in this profession and for parents to drop off their beautiful babies and say, "Please teach my child," right? To me, it's a privilege.

Fawn Nguyen: It is. It really is.

Ana Torres: A privilege and actually an honor, right?

Fawn Nguyen: Right.

Ana Torres: To do this profession, like you said, that isn't easy we persevere because that seems to be the word for me that resonates when I think of you and your journey and what you've gone through and how you integrate your experiences and connect that with your students. You know, what a blessing that you didn't quit. Because then you wouldn't have been able to impact so many more students.

Fawn Nguyen: Something I'm so glad I did, I'm very proud of this, which was tracking. We had tracking at our school. And I advocated for it. So that's my shame. I don't know what other word to use it.

Ana Torres: When you say, when you say tracking, for those who may not know what that is, what does that mean exactly? Tracking.

Fawn Nguyen: So tracking is, we had, we separate the kids based on test scores, based on grades, based on teacher recommendation. And I encouraged it. And because of that, next thing we know, a couple years go by and next thing we know, we have, in eighth grade, we have geometry, algebra, and pre-algebra. We had three levels. And to get three levels in eighth grade, we had to, it trickled down to seventh grade. We started tracking them. And it took another teacher, my colleague, to come and say that she happened to have the pre-algebra kids. The kids were below grade level. Supposedly, that was the label. It was a smaller class. And she just came in and said, "Fawn, they don't wanna do anything." She'd share that with me a couple times. So I asked the principal, to really get a feel of it, I asked the principal to come and because she had that same class at the time that I was teaching another class. So the principal came to be with my students so I could come over to her class and observe. And when I was over there, unfortunately, what happened was, because some of these kids know me, or all of them knew me, it was just, I think 11, 12 kids, they were working, they were producing. And she had to say, "Fawn, it's because you're here. They don't work like this normally." So okay, now I'm having trouble sleeping, thinking about this. And I thought, okay, well what the heck? Why are they in that? You know? So I said, no.

Ana Torres: The a-ha, it just, it hit you.

Fawn Nguyen: It hit me. I thought, "Why don't we combine the two classes? 'Cause we're teaching at the same time." Maybe it brought our numbers to 32, something like that. So I, it was midyear, and I just, it was one of those, I'm advocating, I want this to happen. I'm not sleeping well. And I keep thinking about this. So yeah, I went to the principal said, "After winter break, we're gonna combine the classes, please." And the principal was like, "Draft that letter to the parents." So I did, I draft the letter, we sent it out, and sure enough, two parents came almost immediately. One by phone and the other all by email. One by email. And one just came in. And the one who came in to resist in tears. She was the one that, you know, of the higher class. I had to kind of calm her down and said, "Please, I am still the same teacher. And I will have the support of the other teacher." And I would just say that I never heard from those two parents again. I mean, you know, about that, because they knew, they knew the kids were still challenged, all kids were still challenged. I hold high expectations and certain instances where I just love it when, you know, the kids from the smaller class actually had a lot of things to share, contribute. So that was really cool. And, uh, yeah. So that was the end of the whole tracking that we did for a bunch of years.

Ana Torres: But how impactful to just have them all in one classroom, right? And having those students learn from each other as well. It sounds like you were able to sleep better at night.

Fawn Nguyen: Oh yeah. And then, you know, I speak about it hoping to detrack, there's plenty of research to support. And again, the high expectations doesn't change. The conversations need to come from everyone because the kids who are tracked into the lower track, they just don't get out of it. And that's not okay.

Ana Torres: And again, that spirit of learning from each other and having students see models of what can happen, you know? And sometimes we call what you just mentioned, "Oh gosh, I wish I knew better. Oh, those were mistakes." But again, we evolve all the time. So they're not really mistakes. You had that moment in time, where you reframed and said, "You know, I've changed my way of thinking on that."

Fawn Nguyen: Yeah. Right.

Ana Torres: And so you actually gave yourself some grace instead of calling it a mistake. Let's restructure this for the benefit of all children. We're gonna kind of wind down here. If you could go back and give advice to your younger self, Fawn, because you started teaching at what age?

Fawn Nguyen: Oh, 22.

Ana Torres: Right outta college. So if you had any advice to give to your younger self, what would it be?

Fawn Nguyen: Well, I have the answer. It's just, I don't know. And I give it to young people now and it's just, it's, but I'm thinking how realistic, how unrealistic it might be, which is, don't care so much about what other people say, because I felt like that's, with age, a lot of things that I had spent time worrying about, it's no longer on my plate, kind of thing. But that came with, you know, I put in the years, I won't make so many, you know, silly mistakes and or care about stuff that I shouldn't care about. That's all.

Ana Torres: Any examples of something that you would worry about? I know what I would worry about is, did I reach every single student? Did I reach all of the 26 or the 32, 'cause I had a lot of kids in my class, did I reach every single one, every single day? And that would keep me up at night. And now in hindsight, you know, as we evolve and reflect, I was a little too hard on myself with every single day, Ana, you may not reach every single student, but you did throughout that week, throughout that month, throughout that school year. What would you worry about?

Fawn Nguyen: Oh, I commend you for that. See, I gave up on that. I knew I wasn't reaching 'em all.

Ana Torres: [laughs].

Fawn Nguyen: I just knew, for example, it's like this, don't worry about things that won't matter five years from now. And, I want to say that the mistake that you make today, what would it look like if somebody else made that mistake? For example, when people share something they did that they're not so proud of. What would be my advice to them? And so I wanna give myself that advice. 'Cause we're hardest on ourselves.

Ana Torres: Yes.

Fawn Nguyen: Be kind to yourself. I don't think I'm kind enough to myself until later. It only made me, you know, kind of harbor these things. And then the floodgates open. Right? It's like, okay. I didn't share just because some of it is shame?

Ana Torres: Of course.

Fawn Nguyen: For example, growing up I was very poor. And ironically, most people in Vietnam, my neighbors, were also poor. But I felt I was poorer than them. We didn't have stuff that my classmates or, you know, the kids around the neighborhood had. So I definitely felt we didn't have these items. It was always material stuff. And I would lie, I would lie about stuff that I, that we had. Yeah. And so I think back, and I just feel so, so bad for myself. And I kind of understand when kids make up stories. 'Cause I did that. I made up stories. I made up that we went here and there when we didn't go anywhere. So I avoid, for example, I learn, I avoid asking kids after a break, you know, "Where did you go?" You know, "What'd you do?" It's like, yeah, no, growing up we went nowhere, did nothing.

Ana Torres: But that gave you empathy for your students.

Fawn Nguyen: For sure. Yeah.

Ana Torres: I really wanna thank you for sharing your story. It's very inspiring to hear your humble beginnings, how you came to this country, the struggles that you faced, and also your reflective nature of things that, again, you consider mistakes. Which again, to me is just evolution of who you are. And really the advice I feel that you're giving folks is, as you look at your trajectory in any field, especially this one, is be kind to yourself.

Fawn Nguyen: Right. Yeah.

Ana Torres: Give yourself grace.

Fawn Nguyen: And thank you for being kind to me, Ana, you're super kind to me, and I appreciate that.

Ana Torres: No, I appreciate you and I'm so inspired by you. So thank you so much.

Fawn Nguyen: Oh, thank you.

Ana Torres: But on a fun note, you wanna shout out the district you work for?

Fawn Nguyen: The district that I used to work for?

Ana Torres: Yeah.

Fawn Nguyen: So I started out at George Middle School in Portland. That was my 11 years there. And then a little bit at Waluga School District. And then Mesa Union, Mesa Union is where I did most of my teaching and that I blogged about, the lessons from there. And I worked as a math coach at Rio School District. And now with Amplify.

Ana Torres: Thank you so much, Fawn Nguyen, for sharing your amazing story and inspirational story.

Fawn Nguyen: So honored for this opportunity. Thank you. Thank you so much for your kindness. I appreciate you.

Ana Torres: Thank you, Fawn. Take care.

Ana Torres: So Eric, we've gotten a chance to re-listen to that conversation with Fawn. What did you think after this re-listening opportunity? 

Eric Cross: Listening to it now as I, where I'm at right now in my semester, I hear it with fresh ears, even though I'm hearing the same thing.

Ana Torres: Yes. Yeah.

Eric Cross: Did you hear it differently when you heard the second time?

Ana Torres: I did. I did.

Eric Cross: Yeah. 

Ana Torres: You know, it made me appreciate that episode even more and why it was so powerful and why it resonated, because this episode really resonated with a lot of our listeners. So let's get right to it. Eric. 

Eric Cross: I actually went back and looked at my takeaways from it before and I had two new ones listening to it again, and I was wondering how, I didn't catch this, but I think it's because where my heart and my head is at right now, I heard it differently. And, and the first one that I took away was, was holding high expectations with deep compassion.

Ana Torres: Oh!

Eric Cross: I'm calling this a dichotomy of teaching and I, by the way, nothing that I say is original. I probably heard it somewhere, and so I just wanna like, full disclaimer, if I say something that sounds like, "oh, that sounds good!" I probably heard it somewhere on a podcast or read a book or something. This ties into this phenomena called the Pygmalion effect.

This is like the psychological phenomena where you brought, yeah, you're probably familiar with it. It's a situation where like high expectations lead to improved performance, but low expectations lead to worsened performance. How we perceive people, how we speak to them as far as our expectations, directly connect to what they can do. And so we need to have high expectations and how do we do that? Like the language that we use, you know, instead of saying like, "this might be too hard," we could say, "I know you could do this with support. Let's, let's try this." 

Ana Torres: Ooh, nice reframe. Nice reframe. 

Eric Cross: "I know you can do this, and if you run into a challenge, that's totally okay, but let's give it a try first."

So one of 'em is the language that we use. How we talk to our students individually, and how we talk to them collectively as a class, because that also frames how we come across. I'm going to go, I'm going to say one more thing because this happened yesterday. I have a student in class and he has ADHD, and I love him to death, but sitting down for an hour is a real challenge.

Ana Torres: Challenge, yeah, I can imagine. 

Eric Cross: And he's hypersocial, he's very charismatic, and so he gets really distracted. He's not doing the work. And so I redirected him multiple times and he wasn't focusing. And so I pulled him away from his friend and I said, "okay, you're going to have to sit here and work." Well, he wasn't working when he was sitting next to me either.

I started going through, in my mind, like my Rolodex. Rolodex? Uh, I started going through my mind, like my, my Excel spreadsheet, my Google sheet of responses to this. Because, you know, the first thing, I'm going to be honest, the first thing I felt is like, "how come he is not doing what I tell him to do? Like, oh, what am I doing wrong? Like, I don't like this." And he said to me, "Mr. Cross, when are we having snack?" Because it was a half-day and we have a snack. 

Ana Torres: Okay? 

Eric Cross: And I said, "We have snack in like 30 minutes." I didn't think anything of it. Ten minutes later he asked me the same question, "when are we having snack?"

And I go, "20 minutes." And he pulls out a little cookie and then he puts it back in his bag. And I go, "What's up dude?" He goes, "I have a headache." And I, I go, "Did you eat breakfast?" And he's like, "No." And he goes, "I don't, I don't feel that great." I go, "Okay, hold on. Time out. You aren't feeling good" ...

Ana Torres: Right.

Eric Cross: ...completely reframed everything. I said, "My man. If you ever come in here and you're not feeling right, you've got to tell me. And by the way, tell all your team."

Ana Torres: Check in.

Eric Cross: Exactly. "Tell your teacher, let them know." Because the story that I told in my mind was different than what I was seeing. And so I, I went and grabbed an orange, "you're gonna eat right now."

That was a situation where like, I was holding high expectations.

Ana Torres: Yeah.

Eric Cross: But as soon as I found out that there was a, like a Maslow hierarchy need, like needing to eat, like every, that all goes away. It also reminded me that I should be also checking in, because sometimes I get away from that when the classroom starts.

Ana Torres: Yeah. 

Eric Cross: I got right to business. That's just kind of an example that Fawn brought to mind when I thought about high expectations with deep compassion. It's kinda like that warm demander, same thing. 

Ana Torres: I liked how you phrase this, hold high expectations with deep compassion. That with is, those two things should not be, like you said, opposing things. Right? Because a lot of us want to have the high expectation, but without that deep compassion. Because deep compassion means you have to know your students. And in the example that you gave about that student who, who is high energy. When you found out the "why" behind the behavior, you automatically shifted and said, "okay," you probably also realize you have to check in with him a little bit more.

Eric Cross: Mm-hmm.

Ana Torres: To ensure that you can hold them to those high expectations. So one of the things that I always believed as an educator was when we make children believe that they can, they do. 

Eric Cross: A hundred percent. I agree with that a hundred percent. 

Ana Torres: That goes to the, you could still hold the high expectations, you know, with that deep compassion. I like that you use "with" instead of "and," so I really appreciate your take on that. Let's talk about your second takeaway. 

Eric Cross: Yeah. The second takeaway that I had was, be willing to change your practice even when it challenges tradition. And so this is one that, I'm midway through the year, growth means letting go of long lasting systems that may not be working with your, for your kids. And sometimes those might be the sacred cows. Like in education, there's all these things that we know are great, broadly speaking, but what you're doing in the classroom specifically for your students, it may not be the best thing for them. And so we have to be willing to challenge practices, you know, long accepted routines.

They might feel safe, but if we look at the data, where you look at what's happening with our students, um, it might actually be reinforcing or causing our students to regress or reinforcing inequalities or practices that just don't help advance their learning. You know, it could be like over scaffolding in the name of support. And this is something that I'm looking at right now in my practice to see if students have kind of developed.

Otherwise, sometimes the supports that we give may not be supports anymore. They might be hindrances because the student's overly depending on it. 

Ana Torres: That willingness to pivot is so critical. What's your next takeaway? 

Eric Cross: The next one was, separating the student from the behavior. If you're listening to this and you're midway through your year, you, you kind of have a good pulse on who your students are and where they are.

And it's important to respond to behaviors without labeling children. If a child is challenging, no child chose to be that. They didn't wake up and intend to be challenging. 

Ana Torres: Preach, preach!

Eric Cross: It's a hundred percent something that some adult had or there is something neurologically that's happening. 

Ana Torres: Correct.

Eric Cross: But once we start placing intention and blame on that individual child, we start reframing how we see them and we unintentionally or intentionally change how we treat them and how we teach them. If a student blurts out, this is my day, if a student blurts out something...

Ana Torres: Middle school teacher!

Eric Cross: ... "hey, let's try that again. Let's practice raising our hand." 

Ana Torres: Right. 

Eric Cross: Long way of me saying, separating the student from the behavior and allowing yourself to really see that student for not only who they are, but who they have the potential to become. 

Ana Torres: Ooh, that's it. 

Eric Cross: That's it. And sometimes you have to remind yourself daily. 

Ana Torres: Well, and separating the student from the behavior is not always an easy thing, you know. And I think I've shared this with listeners and with you, I was seeing, I was always that educator that, you know, my principals were always, "Ana, we have a student who misbehaves or a student who is challenging and we know that you have the skill set to handle this and work with this student."

And I was honored by that the first couple of years. But then I'm like, "Well, I think we need to kind of spread this to other folks on our team to build capacity. We should all be able to separate behavior from who the student is." 

Eric Cross: Yeah, it can't just be Ana. 

Ana Torres: I always felt we all can. If we just learn how to do what you just said, separate. Just because you see an older student, a bigger student having sometimes maybe aggressive reactions to things, they're still children.

So we have to remember we're the adults. Other students are also watching us to see how they should handle behaviors like that. 

Eric Cross: Can I, I wanna normalize one thing too. It will always stretch you. 

Ana Torres: Yes. 

Eric Cross: And so you're going to be put in situations that you're like, "I don't know what to do with this." And you're going to default right into something that may not be your best version of yourself.

That is okay. That is part of the learning process.

Ana Torres: Exactly.

Eric Cross: When you get into that situation, you didn't handle it your best, that's a great learning experience right there.

Ana Torres: Yeah, I appreciate that. And you know, yeah, you gotta give yourself grace. We're not perfect.

Eric Cross: Yep.

Ana Torres: We're dealing with people's children. This is not one of those things that you can kind of shake off. And I think we internalize what we consider failures. We should be looking at them as learning opportunities and what "would I do next time?" Right? 

Eric Cross: A hundred percent. 

Ana Torres: Great takeaways, Eric, I always enjoy hearing your perspective and also looking at this episode with a fresh lens. And one surprise. We asked Fawn to give us a little update and share some new advice and tips for educators. Here's what Fawn had to say. 

Fawn Nguyen: Hi everyone, it's Fawn Nguyen, and I'm grateful that Ana and Eric are inviting me to share a few more minutes with you as we head into the second half of the school year.

Here's a gentle reminder: Do less, but do it better. Your students don't need more activities, they need more time to think, more time to talk, and more time to make sense of the math. I bet you're already behind on your pacing guide, so who cares? I taught for 30 years and there was not one year that I finished covering the curriculum on time and no one died from it.

So pick one thing to focus on for the rest of the year. Maybe it's getting better at asking follow-up questions. Maybe it's giving students 10 seconds of actual wait time. Whatever it is, go deep instead of wide and be more curious. Your students don't need a perfect lesson. They need you to be genuinely curious about their thinking.

When a kid says something that makes no sense to you, that's gold. That's your invitation to say, "Wait, tell me more about that." I know the second half of the year is long. I'm convinced that February has 45 days, but by now you know your students well. So double down on what's working and quietly drop what isn't.

Second semester is the perfect time to take risk because you have rapport. Don't burn yourself out trying to cover everything. Focus on the relationships and the thinking. That's what they'll remember. And one more thing, save every thank you note, compliment, or photo of a great lesson. When March hits and you're wondering why you did become a barista, open that folder. You'll remember. Good luck everyone. Remember you don't have to teach. You get to teach. 

Ana Torres: So good to hear from Fawn again. Before we go, Eric, let's give listeners a little preview of what's coming up in the new year. 

Eric Cross: Let's do it. 

Ana Torres: So in two weeks, Dr. Mitchell Brookins will talk about developing students' critical thinking.

Mitchell Brookins: When I see questioning that really probes, that's how I know I'm in a classroom where a teacher honors students' thinking. 

Ana Torres: We'll also be joined by Daniela Anello, CEO of DC Bilingual Public Charter School, to talk about discovering passion and purpose. 

Daniela Anello: I think there has to be a self-reflection that happens after every single day that we do the job that we do, right?

We're working so hard. Educators plan lessons, really want the lessons to be successful, really want to see student learning. And then what happens is that we have to stop, rest, pause, and recognize, did I, did it work? 

Ana Torres: Mike Flynn will also be joining us to talk about research-backed strategies for embracing institutional and instructional change.

Also, Eric and I will be teaming up with Dr. Susan Lambert, host of Science of Reading: The Podcast for a special edWeb this February. We're going to talk about building across the curriculum and why every teacher is a literacy teacher. I'm so excited to talk about that. 

Eric Cross: Susan's awesome. I can't wait for that one.

Ana Torres: We'll be sharing more information on that special edWeb in the coming weeks. I'm host, Ana Torres, he's Classroom Insider Eric Cross. Our music is from Andrew Smolan. We will see you back here in this feed in two weeks. Happy New Year, Eric. 

Eric Cross: Happy New Year, Ana. Happy New Year everyone.