Today I'm Always Watching.

We're gonna be talking about episode six of Pluribus TDP.

Is it the right letters?

Did I say it right?

HTP?

It's human derived protein.

Tiger derived protein.

That's the one I watched a different.

In the Charlie Sheen edition.

All that right for this?

Welcome to Always Watching the trainda Pano podcast, where we talk about whatever TV shows we feel like talk about.

My name is Matthew Carroll and with me on the panel today we have Jay Scotty, Saint Claire.

What's happening to Jay Scotty.

Be in the I love that guy so much?

And then uh, longtime friend of the network, buddy of ours, John Irons has joins us tonight.

How you doing John, I'm doing well.

I forgot to think of something cool to say.

Hey, I'll stand character we we we Oh man, I love that.

That was so fun, the whole scene.

Like him, it seems so unfulfilling to me, the idea of doing that, you know, but like at the same time, I mean, it's kind of like West World.

He's like westworlding these people.

Mm hmm.

Yeah.

I imagine it'll get old pretty quick.

But it's like, I mean, it's it's like it's you know, it's cosplaying, it's living out your fantasy.

It's like it's it's it's live action video game.

It's like it's if you really had the power to do it, you do it.

You do it a few times, it right, a couple of weeks something.

It's so funny when they guy started clapping, it's just really good.

John, you have not been appeared on this podcast to talk about it.

I know you appeared on a different podcast.

Feel free to mention, but what are you thinking about the show so far?

I very much enjoy the show.

So the other show on our network, the Infinite Potato Network, we have a show called Moon Show, and it is so named because it was originally about Yeah, hosted hosted by Nick Jaeger, but for all mankind, also on Apple Plus.

Has been on.

Hiatus for two years half almost.

Two years now.

Yeah.

So in the meantime, every now and then she'll also she will talk about other sci fi shield other like Hybrouse sci fi shows, and so this was this is this is the latest show that she's discussing on there.

And I wasn't on the first episode of that.

The first episode of the podcast where they covered episodes one through three.

It was funny we did something very similar, so it's like both networks.

Like everyone was like, I'm three episodes into this one.

We got to talk about it, right, everybody?

We got to talk about this.

We gotta catch up.

I think the show's going to be good, but we did not prep for it nearly enough.

I didn't even I didn't even know about it until it started airing.

I think I was in the same boat.

Yeah, but I was.

I was very surprised as I'm listening to their recap episode that they're all very anti Hive mind, like they're all like very pro Carol, and I was like, what I figured, you know, I'm figured to be fifty to fifty.

I'm figuring to be fifty to fifty.

But no, like I'm like, am I the only one's like yes, go hide mind Like really me, just me?

But yeah, so just let me put it out there right now.

And obviously, you know, the series is progressing and we're learning more and more.

But as of episode three, four and even still today for different reasons now because again the show is awesome, I am not I am not on the we have to save humanity and put them back the way they were planned necessarily.

Like, I feel like you could make a very sound argument that the world is a much better place, even though it's a clearly flawed system, and we learned how much more flawed you know this past episode.

But to me, if Carol succeeds in what she currently wants to do, that would be a horrific tragedy.

So I am hoping that Vince Gilligan will be able to get us out of this in a way that doesn't same horrific.

I don't know the word pro hive mind in the same way, but it's just that the high mind is calm iplicated and it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it and in some ways it's great.

Sure some of their their standards for doing the right thing or whatever are wonderful, and just the connectedness, but there's definitely complex.

It's complex because you also lose individuality and like the idea that they don't seem to be connected to their bodies in any way and do when you have a hive mind.

It's like the do all those individuals cease existing?

I mean, I guess technically no, they've merged, But what does that mean for individuality?

And I think so.

I think it's a complicated question.

I think the show is doing a really good job of walking that line where we're definitely not anti Hive Mind here.

This episode actually, for me was the first time I was like, oh, like, the Hive Mind has real problems because like it's not willing to worry about it's it's people's survival, you know.

And I've kind of known that in the past.

It sort of I mean, even the way they treat sex, the way they're willing to put themselves at risk for Carol, the Hive Mind doesn't have a protective nature for its individuals in this way that like is interesting and kind of dark, but or is it?

You know what I mean?

I don't know, Like they just don't have that same connectedness to their own individual bodies, like Zosha putting herself in danger with the grenade and you know, like I said, all the all the sex with what's the character's name that we had the Vegas guy Diabat Kumba Diabate, Kumba Diabat.

Yeah, he's so much fun to watch.

But like the fact that they don't mind him sexualizing them is because they don't.

In my mind anyway, it's because they don't have connection to their bodies in the same way.

They don't.

It's like it's like not personal to them because they are not them.

They are the hive mind.

You know.

It's a very strange thing we as us.

Yeah, that lack of autonomy and that lack of like self preservation, I think on some level kind of represents a lack of intelligence to some degree.

And maybe I'm alone in thinking that, but I agree for my purposes, I think this show has been pretty bipartisan in its approach to you know, the High Hive Mind versus or non by I meant to say, non bipartisans.

That's what I want to say.

You mean nonpartisan?

Yeah, I think you mean by non partisan.

Yeah.

Excuse excuse me for stumbling over my words there.

And my reception to The High Mind versus Carol has been kind of similar.

I think it's straddled a nice line.

There have been cracks in the veneer.

I certainly see the benefits of this utopian society and being a little more conscientious to the whole rather than being so selfish, which is, you know, a staple of Western civilization.

A lot of ways.

But yeah, I think this.

Definitely h represented a little bit of a paradigm shift, and I think it was a perfect follow up to last week's episode because I kind of predicted that this whole huge reveal like soilent Green reveal that we had over the last you know, the last few minutes of last week's episode, in the first few minutes of this week episode, the way it was kind of swept under the rug and it was just really like a non issue, and they almost played it like a joke with the you know, the John Cena infomercial, which we'll talk about.

But I found it, you know, kind of heartbreaking on a certain level as well, because just to talk about that opening sequence I really appreciated and uh, you know, I extrapolated some of this by listening to the official podcast, but the fact that we had that first person kind of like found footage approach that felt almost like a horror movie on some level, Like I appreciated that change in perspective because it felt like one of the few times across this episode that are this series rather that we were experiencing what Carol was rather than being in the room and kind of being an observer.

We were getting the reveals, like even though she she knew what she was going to show to, you know, the the other unjoined, the way that it was shot just kind of felt like, what is what are these these shrink wrap packages?

And you know, just being on the edge of your seat like that, I think I.

Might have just solved a major plot point.

I think it's gonna be good.

Okay, here's what I'm thinking.

Carol said it this episode, just fucking pick an apple.

So the hive mind is its own person right, It's like it's like a single person, it seems, with its own personality, and it's made this group, this group of human minds came together and made all these decisions based on what is perfectly good for all people.

And they're doing these kinds of perfectly good but in some ways very naive things, as.

We learned here.

So Carol's going to convince them to eat the apple.

And if you'd read the Bible, that's.

That sin man.

Carol's going to convince them to break their rules to survive, convince them that.

It's worth it.

And if she does that, it will solve their problem.

But it introduces the idea of yes, selfishness, doing the right thing for the hive rather than the right thing for everything living.

And then what does that do, Like she thinks she's saving the hive, but she might twist it into something darker.

Well, yeah, and that ties directly into what I was kind of talking about, like how the self preservation almost represents a form of intelligence because I've long held the theory, you know, growing up in a house that held to certain Judeo Christian beliefs, like the knowledge of good and evil kind of is what separates us from the animals.

Like I kind of picture the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve.

The reason they were perfect beings is because they probably were something very much like the high mind, living in harmony, not having this idea of self and and whatnot.

So, yeah, the knowledge of good and evil is effectively what makes sin even possible to go even further with it.

One thing I'm thinking about when I was watching these episodes and you see these people just willing to just robe at a moment's notice, for for Demante, is that right, I'm sorry, Diabate, Diabateabate.

That's also very Garden of Eden, right, they have no problem with shame like, what if she gets them to pick the apple?

But shortly thereafter diabates like, let's go to bed, and they're like, actually, we have our own decision making now.

I do have to say that was the best use of bubble censoring since Austin Powers.

Well, oh it was.

It was choreographed beautifully.

I looked for nipples as best I could, and I didn't catch one.

I did not catch one nipple.

No, no, And I gotta catch them all.

No.

You know, you've you made the point that you know we we like the found Flotters thing was seeing it from Carol's point of view because of the camera.

But I've thought about this a couple of days ago, because you know, she goes and she she talks with uh Diabate and you know he just he gives us all this information.

Oh yeah, you know, we knew this already, and in fact, you don't know this.

Here's another thing that we know, and it's only because we've been in Carol's point of view.

It's only because the show is following her that we don't She is doing this all alone and we don't have the information that we would have all like the majority of the stuff that we're wondering about, you know, what's it like to be at the high mind?

Where, like what's individual?

Like where do you end?

Where's the hive begin?

Like?

How are thoughts and feelings and emotions processed?

Are you still you in there somewhere?

Is it just is it?

Is it spread out?

Is it diluted?

Or is it magnified?

These are all questions that everybody else except for Paraguide.

Sorry, that's that's what we called him on the show.

That's what we call him on our show.

Paragot mister Manoosis I think it's his name, but yeah, but yeah, but everybody else they just asked, and the I've told them because the Hive doesn't really lie like they they will omit and they will you know, hedge and they'll you know, kind of speak around it.

But if you don't let up, they will eventually tell you whatever you want to.

Know, except for how to change them back that we know of.

They really fought that.

I think they probably would that we know of.

You know, he was like he asked, he asked John Sena about you know, what's up with all the milk?

And John Cena just told them and and he's like and so the conversation progressed and he was like, you know, once you pin them down about it, they're all gonna like the majority is going to starve to death in ten years or whatever.

Said.

But he put that lines like you have to pin them down, like, yes, they will let you use your assumption, they will use your assumptions against you, and yes they will give you non answers and evasive answers, but it doesn't seem like they can outright lie.

Well, we prefer to live vegetarian, okay, but that's not saying that you are.

I guess all the lawyers survived such a good line, which is a great better call Saul reference.

I'm choosing to believe it's yes, very nice.

But I'm glad that came up because I also, you know, I've talked in previous episodes about a seeming evolution that we're seeing amongst the High Mind, and I do agree that they seem largely altruistic, especially with the revelations in this episode, but I do think they're capable of some level of manipulation or at least, you know, enforcing a boundary and this space that they're talking about.

So the fact that they were a little cagey about their preference, but they were being honest.

But it's a very selective choice of words.

What exactly does needing their space mean?

And I think my curiosity was driven even further with one of the final things Diabate said to Carroll.

He said, they want to come back, Zosha, misses you.

They're just looking for a change of heart.

So what does a change of heart actually constitute for them?

Is?

You know, surely it's not what Diabate is doing, even though he refers to them as my loves.

I think the bare minimum she would have to do is like just an effort, just like Okay, I'll stop trying to kill you.

Fine.

It's interesting we have this, you know, a boundary you have to set with your family, let's say, or someone that you care about, if they won't accept the person that you are, a thing that is important to you.

There are a lot of people who have to cut off family members because you know, they won't accept a big important part of me.

And I think the thing they would probably need for her to do is just accept them that they're the hive.

I think, like the fact the big rift right now inherently wrong Yeah, they're not inherently wrong for being who they are.

Uh.

And it's.

Sorry, I'm getting a little too stuck on the metaphor, but like, don't try to send them to uh, you know, hive conversion camp, is what I'm saying.

Sure, okay, that's that is pretty apt.

Yeah, we got to keep that in mind.

Part of the reason I pose the question is to set myself up to uh, to provide this theory as well.

But I think we can't forget the fact that what was the what.

Was the you know, the compounding factor that made them abandon her the way that they didn't, And to the point that even when she shows up in Vegas like they have to vacate the scene, it's the fact that she, you know, did what she did to find out how to reverse this thing.

What you're talking about there, that conversion therapy.

So she was really emboldened ever since they like to her, and even though she's kind of always miserable, she said when she first found out that they were gone, like, this is the happiest I've been.

You finally left me alone.

This, this is this is what I want.

So I do think she's on the right track.

And again speaking to like this change of heart.

I think.

The fact that we haven't seen Zosha as long as we did, like what is her status right now?

Has she been brought back to the brink in some capacity, in some limited way, And that's how they know there's a way to reverse it, and there they have to keep that under wraps.

You know.

I think it's likely.

I think we're as we're approaching the end of the series, I think there's a really long, a really strong likelihood that we're going to have you know, menusus, Carol, and maybe a new version of Zosha that has no memory of her previous interactions, all kind of banding together.

Oh interesting, it's interesting the way.

The one I guess, as far as we know, who came closest to quote unquote breaking was Zosha.

And because she was in this unique position, you don't exactly know what the cause was because she was recently interested, so like she was like medically weak, like physically weak.

She was in the hospital.

Sure, so that could have been like part of like the breakdown.

She was drugged, so maybe that disrupted the signal or whatever, or maybe that just we don't know what there I mean, Carol, certainly doesn't know what her biology is really chemically right, So maybe she's like she just had a reaction to the drug.

Yeah, absolutely could have been a combination of drugs she's already on, she's in the hospital recovering, could have been on something else that interfered with the.

Truth.

Whatever it could be, because it wasn't anger, but it was an intense emotion.

You know, Carol wasn't trusting them out, but as far as we know, that could have the same effect.

Like and so it's it's she's kind of zocious, kind of the only test sub test case that we have.

But she's also it's a very very it was not a controlled experiment.

You know, there were a ton of factors that contribute.

So I think Carol moves forth with this individuality and this belief that ah see I told youself.

See I told yourself.

With everything that she discovers, even when the thing she discovers isn't the thing that she discovers, like we would have just told you if you'd ask.

And also she because she assumes that she's always correct, she could easily be moving forward with faulty information.

And I'm just I'm just very worried.

I'm very worried for everyone involved.

Yeah, everyone who's trying to do the right thing could do horrible things.

I'm worried about what will happen.

I think another I said this last week, but I think another big thing that we're going to see.

And the more we talk about it, the more I keep circling this idea.

At some point we are going to see her.

I think she will get someone out of the hive.

She will break loose someone and I have a feeling it'll be Zosha because that would be someone she's most connected to.

And I think that like, she will make it work.

She will figure out how to break someone from the hive, but then she gets to see the repercussions of breaking someone from the hive and the pain it causes them, and like what if she breaks them from the hive and they can't get back in the hive, and then it's like she's done this to them.

You know, it's very I keep, you know, going back to uh the Buffy after they pulled her out of Heaven.

I keep I keep thinking of Hugh from Star Trek, the borg that separates from the hive, like literally the.

High so I'm just coming up with this theory on the fly, but kind of speaking to what I was talking about previously about perhaps it'll be Zosha, Manusos and Carol uniting, maybe not, maybe not Zoshia.

But I have to talk about this, you know, this radio signal that Manusos was tuning into, because it's.

Got to play in some way.

And my first thought was like, hey, maybe there's another unjoined person out there sending some kind of more signal and they and they just don't even know about him, Like he's even a extra level of being removed and remote, even though we're seeing what seems like the most extreme version with with Manuso's here.

But I actually think maybe it'll be what it'll be the combined forces of Carol and Manuso's her you know, doggedness and being the one leading the charge and him having this radio signal.

I feel like because the thing that I picked up on, I don't know if it's Morse code, but it did sound very insect like to me, and I think that's one thing we can describe the Hive mind as being like they're very drone.

Like we haven't seen any evidence of a queen, but I think that would be very, very interesting if that was something that's revealed somewhere down the line.

I have to imagine it factors.

And somehow I feel like.

I'm speculating way too much this episode, like coming up with theory of things that I feel like we're not as much analyzing this episode as just like excited about the future of this show, Like it's just so good.

And I just thought about it, Uh, what if.

Para guy as as as you guys call him, sure is not immune?

He he found out it happened.

He has turned over every plate they've sent him.

How did they pass the thing before they like licked all those things and give it.

I guess maybe they did it through the air.

Yeah, maybe he wasn't outside the Yeah they gas the area.

You're right, he probably he probably he probably is.

I just thought about, like he's he's never eaten.

Anything from them that we've seen.

Like maybe there's a possibility like he gets through the whole thing and then ends up getting infected at some point you're like, oh my gosh, we just lost lost an individual.

But he's joined the high.

He's happy, but like what does that mean?

You know?

So I you know, I don't watch, you know, trailers are like behind the scenes stuff, or rather not until after it's aired.

And of course I will speculate, you know, theorize all day long.

So right now, my speculation is not that the it's not that being joined rewires you to be happy.

I don't think that's what it does.

I think it's instant empathy and communication.

And I think the the the being super accommodating and being super nice and being you know, unable really almost physically to make a choice between one person or another, or to do anything that would harm somebody else or something else as you see it is, I mean, and then they, you know, they call it a biological imperative.

I don't think it's that.

Well, we've all decided not to cut grass.

I don't think it's a decision.

I think it's it's like it's like getting your knee hit with the hammer.

I think it's I think it's reflexive.

I think it's I think it's it's they they can't do it.

I think even if they wanted to, they can't.

It's like a it's like a like a what are the three robot rules?

They like they can kind of maybe sort of finesse and kind of wiggle around it with the no lying thing, but ultimately they can't break the rules.

I think it's I think it's hardwired into how they function now.

And I'm gonna I'm gonna just slip into the my side theory.

It's not even a theory, you know, like especially in the in the initial episodes, you know, the question was where where the signal come from?

Who sent the signal?

What is this you know, alien race?

And I had this not debate but discussion with someone else who's watching the show, and she's like, I just want to know.

I'm like, I don't think it matters, but I can head canon that they were a race of you know, maybe they were telepathic and they were all empathetic and and that's just how they were, Like it was it was a function of their society that and it never came up.

They didn't need to maybe they were photosynthetic, you know, maybe they just you know whatever, their biology didn't need to eat food the way that we need to eat food.

And because this recipe, this virus, this high of mind whatever wasn't tailored to us as humans.

Like the software works, but the hardware isn't super compatible, so we do need to eat and we can't feed ourselves the way that whatever system started it did.

So is it your contention that this virus is kind of controlling the hive mind?

Okay, it is my contention that the virus and I don't even love calling it that, but for black virus, Yeah, that's why that that yeah, that's that's true, that the virus has rewired.

I don't think it does anything more than allow allow you to literally walk in everybody else's.

Shoes exactly, That's exactly.

I think that's where the empathy comes from, is is it like if you can and that's why I mean, that's why art is so important.

That's why all these things are so important.

Is is it like art from different perspectives?

If you can see from everyone else's perspective, you grow empathy for that person.

And if you don't, it's easy to like stay cloistered off.

And like, I think that that's it.

I think the hive mind, it just straight up connects everybody, and all of a sudden, you have all the knowledge of the person with the most, the most knowledge of every kind of struggle, you know what I mean, And you suddenly don't want to You don't want to cause any pain to anything.

Now.

The only thing that makes me wonder though, is like, so they're vegetarians, do they?

It's a very common thing.

I listen to various like humanist sort of things, and when they talk about it, they're like people that eat meat will talk about it and they're like, vegetarians are right.

Like it's like you have a.

Joke, Like I'm not there, Like I still eat meat, but I acknowledge that in like I don't know, however, many decades be looking back and thinking like, man, I cannot believe that people used to farm animals this way, you know what I mean, the way that we treat animals.

It's like vegetarians are right, you know, that's it.

So like I think that that that makes sense for the vegetarian part for me, But like I don't really understand the plants thing, Like they don't have sentience in the same way.

And so that's why as far as we know, Like but what if again, what the origin species?

What if they did?

You know, there's been like studies like you know, you can hear plants screaming or whatever, and I don't know whatever but like maybe for them that may maybe as far as we know, you know, we're assuming that this this link is just you know, you can hear the thoughts of other humans, but maybe you can feel the feelings of any living things.

That's the direction I was going to take it, and the the show's creators have described this virus as like a psychic glue connecting you know, this this hive mind here.

But and it's something I brought up previously.

Yes, we've talked about the fact that we've seen them serve animal byproducts, but we really found out in this episode there's strong aversion to anything that's technically living.

So I've framed a lot of the illusions here under like you know, Western beliefs and philosophies.

But I think that's what's so great about this show is you can also look to like Eastern religions and philosophies, and there's a strong belief that God exists in all things.

And so to that point, if you do become connected to the entire universe suddenly, and that's what unlocks the sympathy you would have that for all things.

So yeah, I think that's incredibly interesting.

But it does present an issue with it as well, because to your point, Matt, the even though perhaps there is some level of sentience to plants and you know, animal byproducts, doesn't seem like the correct terminology here.

But the fact that they're smart enough and have the collective knowledge of everyone to determine, hey, we're going to starve in ten years and they can't really do anything about that.

Well, the thing is only some of them are going to starve.

The thing is like that grazing thing that they're talking about doing.

I think there's a certain okay, like the idea of the robot the robots just dawned on me why that makes sense.

But like so, like you can you can eat things that fall off the trees and people that die, and like animals that just die if you catch them early enough, you know what I mean, Like you know so, but the problem is it's just too many people.

Like if you still had all the ortridgs.

In the world, there's some level of humanity that could survive.

It's just not the seven billion.

So a society like the hive could survive.

Maybe it's two hundred thousand people that could survive.

Maybe it's however many, but you know, it's just not seven billion, right.

I was gonna say Thanos was right, but that's a little extreme, not extreme enough for this this world probably.

And it's like the you know, as I didn't think about until until, you know, a minute ago, but you know, as horrific as the idea of us eating other people or people humans eating humans, that's how they see eating an apple.

Mm hmmm, like it's it's it's like, well, you know, because you know, the classic questions, A suppose you you know, you you're you're stranded in the mountains, or you crash on des Island, whatever, there's nothing to eat except you, you know, you're dead, fellow passengers, do you do it?

And you know, I suppose for some people it's an easy yes or an easy no, but most of us would like you have to go, you know, like most of us probably like you kept.

Maybe it depends, like I don't know if I would ever get to that point.

Or it's really like rules, it's like rules based ethics versus like utilitarianism, you know, and it's like really that balance of and I have rules that I live by and that is what creates society.

But at the same time, we don't if we don't eat, we starve, and so we got to make a decision that maybe against our rules based order at times.

And it's it's a balance, you know, And I love that.

I love this show so much.

Yeah, like literally, just now you know, I didn't.

I didn't make the the absolute contrast between I won't eat this because it's disgusting, between what Carol does and where the hive is.

But it's exactly the same.

It's exact the same, And how dare you eat it because it's disgusting?

Yeah, but they don't you judge her.

They don't even judge them for doing it because because they don't judge, because they get because you know, it's another thing like someone else.

We're I'm also in a discord chat about it, and.

I see why you wrote us to see, Hey, are you'll cover this.

I'll be comforted.

You're talking about this in a lot of places.

Yeah, discords, podcasts, it's.

A discord from the you know, the from the show from podcast.

Yeah, I'm only cheating with you guys.

You know this.

But someone was like, okay, well what about all like the negative emotions like and this is you know a few episodes us to the episode to go.

So you know what about Like it's like all that negative emotion has to go somewhere, so like maybe there, you know, is it bottled up?

And I was like, no, I think it's just healed.

I think you've got every therapist, You've got every person who's been through the same thing or worse and come out the other side.

Like you've got every resource emotionally and mentally available to you instantly.

And just like speed running therapy.

Well, it's also extreme loss of self and so that's like selflessness.

It's a very like Buddhist idea or whatever, like exactly, you are not an important thing, they exactly, And Buddhism it's like all negative emotions come from want and self and selfishness, and like pain is just you experiencing your own body, you know what I mean.

And like in in the whatever Buddhism, the idea is like even even pain is not real, it's it's it that's that's we're not connected to our bodies in that way.

And and they literally aren't.

They're the hive and they don't feel the way their bodies feel.

And they don't uh.

I mean, we've seen it with like with Zosha being blown up and the next day she's still like, what can I do for you?

Carol?

I'm great, Like I'm here to serve, and it's it's in a way it's a beautiful thing, but in a way it's it is.

I like, the idea of the Hive is just this like brutally omni selfless being.

M hmm.

What does selflessness look like when you push it to Like it's an absolute extreme and anything and excess can cause problems, and this is clearly causing problems.

I wondered, Like, after watching this episode, I was like, okay, well, if I were one of the if I were one of the twelve, and I found out that, Okay, well they can't, either either through action or inaction, allow a fruit to be harmed.

I'm like, okay, well, you know what, I will remain unjoined, and you know, I will work.

I don't know if I say work in the fields, but like, I will do what I can to help feed as many people as I can because I don't have like a lot of tame, you know, I can.

But also would they allow me to do that?

Like would they allow me to harvest for them?

Yeah?

Probably?

Would they allow me to kill cows for them.

Yeah, with or at that point, am I just a tool like the robot?

And I'm basically you know.

Right, I don't think they would stop you, because they've said I think they would eat things, they would take a resource if and you can do whatever you want, so they could try that.

But they did say like the only.

People I didn't I didn't catch I didn't understand that conversation when it happened on the TV show.

Now I am and like.

The idea of the robots, like we want we talked about getting robots to do it, but they said they would have to design the robots, which is like just one step away from them doing it.

It's not like, but how far?

Like what if you give me the plans?

Right?

What if you just show me the library?

Is that enough?

I think that's where it comes to intention.

If they have any level of intention that leads to the desired outcome, which goes back to the kind of Buddhist belief there.

It's like if there's no expectation and only acceptance, there's no disappointment, right, there's no dissatisfaction if you if you if you're not wanting for anything, but you know, my personal beliefs are and and you know that's that's what's so great about the show again, it's it's arguing, is this really a utopia?

Which you know, certainly we've all brought up compelling reasons for why, but my personal belief is that there's just not one way for people to live.

And that's kind of why we're constantly in conflict, is because certain people believe like, oh, my way is the right way, and everybody has to prescribe to this way.

But you you need the meek people, you need the lovers, you need the people with all the empathy in the world to to love on people.

But you also need people to.

Be assertive and and rise to the occasion when when there is a need and to fulfill that role.

That's just my my personal belief.

So that's yeah.

So now I'm wondering, you know what if I you know, what if I've got a bacterial infection, you know, okay, which is a life form, Like do they heal me?

Like I kind of take antibiotics to kill the beast here to help me?

Would they give me?

Because I think they would, But like what, you know what if I've got.

It almost feels like they would for you, but not if you hot.

Well that's sometimes like what if I'm because you know, because people are sick, like they they take care of people in the hospital.

What if, you know, that's what I'm in the hospital for.

Or what if I've got some sort of what if I've got like a tapeworm or some sort of parasitic something, you know, do they remove it?

Do they remove it and then care for it like a pet, do they release it to the wild like and or do they just well, unfortunately, this host is lost, or this host is going to have to live with this tapeworm, you know, because that's you know, this this body.

You know, we're not going to kill the tape like I don't know, I don't know.

It's these are questions that if I were anybody but Carol, I would be asking that not.

To get too gross about it, but I think the protein you can derive from a tape worm is probably the ultimately the same protein you can derive from a cadaver without a tape worm, So very true, maybe a little extra protein for that.

I did want to hop back to.

I loved the speculation and the theorizing because again, I do think that speaks to the fact that this episode really represented a paradigm shift.

But yeah, a couple of things I wanted to hop back to again.

I kind of, you know, spoke to the fact that this episode was really heartbreaking and made me resonate with Carol on a level that I hadn't previously.

And I go to that scene where she's learned that the twelve have been meeting regularly Likeshim and you know, having these councils without her, and that she was voted to be disruptive and not included and just really dismissed in this way.

And you know, again, that's why I think this episode is such a great ballo up to the last episode, because she spent that episode entirely isolated, but she had this agency driving her forward, and in this episode, it was kind of like she had this moment to take it in and realize how alone she was.

She made this journey to see Diabate and to find out that, you know, it was all for not and she just breaks down and cries, like I really just felt for her in that moment.

And again we you know, we've sung the praises of Rayes Aehorn and her her acting ability.

But that was just you know, we're talking about empathy here, Like I was on the verge of tears myself there for her.

But a couple of other things I picked up on is we've you know, we talked about the conversion camp and how we've slowly but surely been learning things about Carol because she is a very private and kind of reserved person and doesn't put a.

Lot out there.

But the fact that she refused the alcohol that was offered to her, I was like, I really noted that.

I was like, wow, she's on a mission right now, Like this is the first time we've ever seen her saying no to alcohol or refuse.

That in any kind of way.

And again just to have it ultimately be so disappointing, Like even the fact that she went back into the house and vacuumed everything because she didn't want any evidence, because she thought she was finally onto something and just to have it again amounts to nothing and be all for not in retrospect is just so so heartbreaking.

And it's you know, it's it's the first time that she really reached out, you know, the person to person to Diabata she's like, what are your plans?

Well, you know, you know, I guess I'll find my own suite somewhere.

And he was like, oh, you know.

Yeah, And then she protected herself by pretending it was a joke.

Yeah, well, I mean yeah, like I don't know if he bought I mean, obviously she was lying about it being a joke and I don't know if he even bought it that she like.

But I think, you know, even though he's advocating for her on the phone, it's like, oh, she's so lonely, you know, just can you just you know, let her back, you know, come back, come back to her.

He also is not willing to be without his entourage, you know, because I think I think I don't think he I don't think he really dislikes Carol.

I think he does feel sorry for her, and I think he would I think he would like allow her to stay, if not like in his space, necessarily like certainly like in the area, except that her being there means that Hive won't be there, and he's not going to do that.

That's why he called the hive an advocated for her.

He's like, but she's so lonely, like he's trying to convince them that she's worth like having connection with, because he doesn't want to kick her out, but he knows like her staying there is preventing him from living his life and being connected with all these other hive people, you know, right, forcing her loneliness on him.

And he's like, I care about you, but I'm not going to like ruin my whole situation just so you can stay here.

Yeah, yeah, which again is the great thing about this show.

We have so few characters that actually have, you know, their own personality, and all the characters that we have at play are so interesting.

Carol is such a prickly protagonist.

And then we have this guy like Diabata who's the ultimate hedonist, but he's he isn't all that bad, Like it's you're very conflicted about him, Like he shows these moments of empathy and wisdom and compassion, but he is selfish as the kids say, AF, he's selfish AF.

Ultimately like.

Yeah, but also I'd also like that he's not stupid.

You know, it would be easy to make him kind of a you know, over indulgent caricature, but he doesn't seem to be that.

Like he I mean he's got yeah, he's got seven cars, but he's only got seven cars.

You know, he got he gonna have a fleet of cars.

And yeah he's got a city, but he's only got a parties.

He's got Vegas.

I think he is.

He's living high, and like something about the power, the power drain of Vegas is just so decadent and like the idea that like the environment is being harmed.

Like I'm sure that him sitting there in Vegas is causing that countdown timer to ten years to tick closer.

There's some mechanisms there that are like they're draining the resources in a way that is is causing these Hive people to you know.

It's hurting their planet too.

Sure.

Sure, But one thing I thought was really interesting is when the paraguy runs away, we know that Carol asks for the lights.

I assume that Diabate asked for the lights.

I mean, of course he did, it's Vegas, but like the para guy didn't.

And I thought it was interesting because it seems like the Hive learned that these people to be comfortable need the lights, and so when he's running down the streets the light come on.

It kind of scares him, but they know that he needs the lights and they're trying to make him feel comfortable.

And they've learned this about individuals, you know.

And oh, he's running in the dark.

He could hurt himself.

Let's let's turn the light out.

Yeah, And that's the thing.

It felt like a horror movie in that moment, and that's kind of what the initial concept of the show going in is, like, you know, the dystopia into the world is always like zombies and people coming after you and seeing people at their worst, and it's like, Okay, what does it look like if we kill people with kindness?

And it's the antithesis of that and the fact that they are trying to be so accommodating, but it comes across as so creepy, like, hey, the lights suddenly come on to provide the path for you.

And then there's this kindly old woman that's yea providing matriarchal compassion.

That was his mom, I think, yeah, could be.

I think it was like the way that like she approached him everything, and that's why he said, you're not my mom.

My mom's a bitch.

It's like that's that.

I think that was his actual mom.

Because who they would send, just like all these other individuals except for Carol, because she didn't have anyone.

They sent someone to them that like they had.

They all had family with them, you know, they all have people except for I guess Diabat doesn't that we know of, but they all have family because they have connections and the hive nose like we use these connections to connect with them.

But like, so they sent his mother to and I just love that, like, you're not my mom.

My mom's a bitch.

Is so good.

I was really worried that he was going to shoot her.

Like oh, I was a little very.

Concerned that he was going to shoot because if he because you know, as far as he knows, like it's an alien takeover, especially from what Carol just said, Like you know, he's like, oh, okay, I know you weren't like you know, if you think this is alien and we don't know you know, how religious he is, We don't know either about it, but you know, or if you think like demons have taken control, that's not my mom anymore.

Anyway.

I'm freeing her, you know, I'm freeing her spirit or whatever.

I was very I was like, no, don't please, please don't kill the lady.

Please don't kill the old lady.

M Yeah, I'm glad you bring that up.

And I think the only reason I had any kind of hesitation that it might be his mom because I do believe that's the safe assumption.

It's the way the episode ended because right after he has that interaction with her, the credits roll, but it's a cover of the door song when You're Strange, nobody remembers your name.

So I was like, are they talking about the fact that this woman was strange to him or is this guy strange?

Because the whole time he felt very dangerous to me.

The way he was wielding the crowbar, the way he entered the room is like, if anybody's in here, you better clear out now.

So as much as I've been talking about this union between he and Carol and being, you know, a united force, he could be very dangerous to Carol out right out of the gate.

And I do think even though the clock rewinded to show us it was like three days prior that he got this information, it's going to take him a long time to get to her, and he's going to have to rely on the on the others in some capacity to cross the water, I would have to imagine unless it's going to be a very very dangerous journey for him and a small craft vessel, in which case I think there's a really strong likelihood he doesn't show up until the final episode of the season.

Maybe that's one of the final scenes we see.

I think it's very possible.

Yeah, And I don't know that he is there not just can he not do it?

Like I know, it's not like a road, but like I think, like can he like cross jungle like it?

Like is there is there an all land path from uh from Paragua.

I think he'd have to cross the Panama Canal if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, yeah, probably right, there's probably bridges, right, I don't know.

I don't know.

Maybe maybe I'm not educated enough on that because the geography and infrastructure the canal was dug out geography.

I'm sure pa canw was was like duh, it was like an infrastructure project.

Oh, it's definitely man made, so and there's.

Locks like every because they have to let people into it and lower it and all that.

If there's definitely like blocks along the way and like dams and stuff, so there's definitely a there's definitely a walkable path across.

But would they like turning on the lights without him asking?

Would they make his path easier without him asking?

Like, like, I know he's not going to accept food from them, but maybe they'll make sure the vending machines are stocked before he gets to that city, or maybe he'll take care of him.

Yeah, they'll they'll like if there's like a drawbridge or like like the Panama can basic, they'll just they'll make the pathway easy for him.

Yeah, I mean we saw, you know, Carol will make it from uh to Vegas in a in a matter of hours.

It seemed I don't know.

Exactly, but that's probably.

Yeah, yeah, it's not fertile, but I but it definitely will be more treacherous to get from Paraguay to to America.

But will you know that it rewound by like four days, so he's got I think I think we'll probably see there pretty soon, but we're I don't know.

How the episodes of the season three left three left.

Yeah, so we're still gonna get close to the end before he shows up.

Even even if he shows up right away, it's really close to the end.

Yeah, I didn't think about the idea of him being a danger to Carol.

I just I mean, obviously I should have, but like I was thinking, Okay, they're gonna get together, they'll compare notes, they'll use Google Translate or whatever.

Mm hm, and.

Ever she's a danger to him, I don't know.

I think they're dangerous together.

I think the two of them together are the most dangerous to everybody else on the planet.

I think they are.

I really like, I know it's my theory, and I like it because it's my theory.

But like, I think they are satan.

I think they are going to convince the hive to eat the apple.

I really do.

And I think that's going to be like them introducing selfishness into the hive, and they will work together to do that.

And yeah, I don't know, Eve is tempting Adam.

Yeah, it could be.

I do love the metaphor, I do love the idea.

But if that's the case once, if they do do that and they introduced the idea of self preservation, my life is more important than your life, there is no reason they wouldn't just kill Carol and Menuso's and maybe the other twelve is because potentially they are dangerous to the high.

You could have a long slide to that, you know, you could have this play.

Yeah, I guess.

And that's kind of what I'm mean.

We're talking about how the Hive has learned things and it sort of adapted, and you've talked about Jay Scotti and we're talking with the lights of it ago.

Like, I think it's interesting to think about, like this Hive mind is a sort of like new nascent creature, you know what I mean, Like it's this new kind of creature, and like what does it what happens as it learns and evolves and how to operate as itself.

And the way that Zosha was talking, even though they they they're all about consent with everything else, if they didn't have to, they were going to just turn the other twelve, you know what I mean, They were just wanted to turn everybody for their own good, to throw them a life preserver.

But yeah, you talk about the being and danger to each other.

I just keep going back to that line from like episode two or whatever, when they say, yes, we can get you you know, seven together, but I can't.

Once you're together, I can't guarantee your safety, you know.

And it's just like they just believe that two minds that are not hived up, two beings that are not hived up, getting next to each other is just a dangerous thing.

Yeah, exactly exactly.

I love it.

Yeah, it is effectively chaos.

Last couple of things before we get out of here, and these are, you know, a few things I picked up from listening to the podcast.

But the villain that Diabate faces off against in his very Bond esque poker match there is credited it as Blowfinger, which is a great kind of Feld and gold Finger.

And then this one I really loved, but.

The the head that is wrapped and frozen that Carol holds up and says, you know, this isn't a butterball turkey.

That was a three D print of Vince Gilligan's head.

It's a really great little cameo for Vince Gilligan.

That's great.

Yeah, I didn't know that one.

I watched it, but on the rewatch it totally looks like his head.

You can actually tell.

He's got a signature shaped head for sure.

Yeah, it's got a very distinctive head he does.

Oh man, Well, any other thoughts or theories or things we've missed talking about.

I guess two things, Like I knowed the the avocado toast, and it was like, oh yeah, a little moment, just a little moment.

But he makes his breakfast for her, and he puts it in front of her, and she's, you know, she's kind of she's just thank you, but she doesn't even try it, Like if it were me, I would just eat it.

But she instantly changed it to the thing that she's familiar with.

And he and again I feel like that's a like a beautiful illustration of the difference between Carol and everybody else.

He was like, huh, that's interesting to let me try it your way percent and he tries it.

It's a beautiful scene.

It's she is trend setting, which is impossible in this universe except for those thirteen people, you know what I mean.

She is doing a thing for someone else to copy, which is a way of We do information all the time.

We learn from watching other people do things all the time, but the hive mind is not us.

We don't look at them and go the way they're doing it might be pleasureful, you know what I mean.

Like, but he watches Caroly and goes, huh, that's the thing I might try, you know, because that is a person like me, and they're just a different species than the Hive mind.

And it's just this, this really beautiful moment of what communicated what this looks nonverbal like it said, trend setting communication betwe people is like and I love it so much.

And it's also how Carol is not open to trying new things.

Hm M yeah, yeaheah, it's interesting.

It's interesting.

Yeah.

I read it as almost like an aversion to anyone that presents to her as a caretaker because of the trauma that she had.

Anyone that you know previously, you know, came to her as a caretaker, she's just immediately suspicious of which makes her the greatest heel to the Hive mind, right yeah, because all they want to do is provide and comfort and she's just like, hell no, I don't I don't want any part of that.

So I love that the scene was followed up by it again.

And I that's why this episode was so nuanced and it's depiction of Diabate because it really softened him in the in the previous scene where he puts the blanket on her and takes the glass from her hand and shows this, you know, empathy and compassion for her, and then makes breakfast for her.

But she's like, nope, no, I'll take it, but I got to do it my way.

It's true.

Yeah, I didn't really catch until though we were until I just rewatched it.

But he doesn't let her know that they can't be turned.

She's literally about to walk out the door, right, He's had this whole opportunity that because he knows that's her biggest that's her big thing, Like she don't want to, Like you would think that that's a big fear and its own, don't.

It just happens to come up.

Oh, by the way, they can't turn us.

It's like, well, you know, we'll starve when they turn us.

Oh yeah, that sorry, I forget they can't turn us, you.

Know, Like.

And I don't.

I don't.

I don't even know if there's anything significant to that, But I did think it was interesting that, like if she hadn't said that, you know, she she like, I don't.

Know, it's a really good point.

I think there is something about Carol that is a one way communicator.

She's she's she's she's an author, she is a She's not learning anything about the hive.

She's only like trying to get the specific things she wants from the hive to do the things she wants to do.

She wants to control the world around her, and she's lost all control and like she she wants to control everything.

Uh, and everyone else is kind of just like a receiver for her.

She's not really taking in things from other people.

And I think in some ways when she gets to there to meet Diabate, they like they talk a lot, but it's mostly Carol downloading things and then she you know, him having to be like actually, like they sent a tape, like.

You know, and and to your point that no information counts unless she gets it herself.

Mm, that's that's that's true.

Because like even have to die about he tells her.

Yeah, that's a good point.

The first thing she does is run to the phone.

Hey, is this true?

Like why would he like?

He she doesn't trust she doesn't.

Trust him, but why she she she only trusts them.

She only trusts them because they cannot they can't lie.

Which it's if that ever changes will completely change the series, you know what I mean?

Yes, yeah.

Yeah, everything that she found out they already knew because they asked.

Yeah.

I love how well defined the characters are and they can have these moments where like, so we all three took a completely different thing from that avocado toast, and I think all three interpretations are valid, and all three things are based on who these characters are.

But it's like we're all seeing different things in it because they're so well defined that it means all of that.

You know, that's so good.

Such a good show, guys.

I love when a show comes around and it's like this where just like it eats your brain because it's they'll spend the whole week thinking about like, how what does this mean?

What do they do in this scenario?

What does this?

You know?

It's just so good.

I'm gonna put a theory that's the craziest yet.

What if this show is this virus and it got to Vince Gilligan before it got to anyone, just getting us to join the collective?

Yeah, yeah, you know, I was you sold it.

That is the craziest theory.

It's pretty good.

I was like, that's a bold statement.

Let me hear you, Like, no, you.

Went, you went medaw with it.

Well, should probably mentioned that we can't take your stem cells, but her stem cells are out there because she's like donated eggs.

Oh oh, she probably mentioned that.

Interesting.

When was it revealed that she donated eggs.

I'm sorry, I don't remember that.

I think they said something about or you know.

I guess slash back with Helen about it.

Yeah, I think the flashback with Helen or at least something like to the to the effect of they no, yeah, yeah, because she was like, it's it's costing.

Maybe I'm thinking of it of a show.

I've totally done that before, Like I got this great theory.

Oh wait, I was thinking of different show I was watching this week.

But I think I do remember something about that, or at least that they were trying to get pregnant.

So if I don't know if it's confirmed, but it's because because they they because don't know what they do their their their lawyer language.

It's like it's like it's like doing lay a finger army and they're like, we promise we will not consume any of your stem cells from your body, right or something like that.

Like on the on the side, what was very specific interesting the way that we know that they can lie.

Interesting, I do your eggs have your stem cells?

Is that a thing?

Because as far as I understand, eggs have half of your DNA, or like a portion of your DNA, they don't have all of it because that comes from the spur.

I guesses to insminate her eggs and then get an embryo.

That would be her child.

Cells.

Yeah, okay, yeah, Well, I mean if they have the greatest minds on Earth, maybe they can clone.

Absolutely.

Oh yeah, no, they could, They could possibly clone.

And that's been a huge, like underlying theory I can I'll never forget.

Like we were, we were talking on another podcast and you told, you know, from the Marvel Cinematic Universe podcast Jeff Randall about this sh and his first assumption was, Oh, it's about cloning.

And similarly, when I told my.

Dad about the show, was like, the show's called pluribus, what do you think it's about?

He immediately went to cloning as well.

And there were a lot of people, even though I was pretty you know, solidly convinced by the end of episode five that it was going to be people, a lot of people were like, what if it's a clone of herself?

So the fact that so many people are thinking cloning is going to factor in here somehow.

There's got to be something there that's funny.

Yeah.

I kept wanting to think it was something else under the tarp because people seemed too obvious.

But then after we talked on the podcast and had so many like there were so many little like nods to it and connections to earlier moments that I was like, yeah, it's totally that.

That's it.

That's that for sure.

Yeah, I do you think I thought the same thing.

I was like, Okay, well that's the obvious thing, and it was.

But they immediately deflate that revelations.

Oh yeah, yeah, we alread kne about that.

The real story is that we can't pick fruit, like we're all going to there's too many of us and we're going to starve to death because we can't hurt any living thing at all.

She keeps thinking she has some big revelation something to tell everybody, and everyone's like, yeah, we all, we're all cool with that.

Like this is not a big thing for us, it's but no for a week.

Yeah, yeah.

And what makes it extra deflating is not only is it like the the argument that you had holds no water whatsoever, or holds no weight whatsoever.

It's also just like makes them come across as even better.

No, they're even more altruistic than you thought they were, right.

Yep, yep yep.

Oh man, Well, I'm fascinated where the show's going and like what's going to happen?

And I think cloning, sure, maybe, but I think, like Mabe, this show's concept is so simple and beautiful and it doesn't need anything else.

I could see the show run in seven years and telling a rich story and this is the whole concept.

You know, it doesn't need any other sci fi trope.

It's just like what happens when the Hive exists, you know.

And I I said, I said, I don't know if I said on this podcast.

I think I said it on the Star Trek podcast because we ended up talking about this for thirty minutes, because why wouldn't you it's a Star Trek podcast.

You have to.

But uh No, I think the most obvious course for the show, for for Carol specifically, if you're thinking about like a character arc, you go in not you go in wanting one thing, and then you spend time uh on the adventure and you come out wanting something different.

Uh.

And I think that like Carol's, the obvious arc to throw her on is at the end wanting to be part of the hive, like join hive.

You know, maybe she can figure out how to make it available for other people to exist outside the hive or something for individuality to exist, but she will want.

To be a choice.

Well, as soon as you said that, I just had this vision of her being the one because it was pretty early, I might have been the first episode.

They said the antenna that would have to be large enough to send the signal out would have to be like the size of the continent of Africa.

So I just kind of see like maybe her final act before she willingly gives into the hive is like flicking the switch on the new antenna that's going to send the signal out to some other planet.

Oh wow, like going.

Full in to turn it on and to turn it off to turn it on.

Because again talking about a full character or like a full.

One to eighty from where she wants, she will be the person that's you know, ultimately sends this thing and continues its existence indefinitely.

I don't think much like the avocado too, so I slightly deferent take.

I don't think that she is going to don't.

I don't think Dark into with her wanting to join the hive.

I think her character ended with her trying to save the hive and not save it, like, oh, I need to convert everybody back so that they can eat but in some way preserve the hive as it is, and and instead of trying to undo it.

And I and I think, and I think that's maybe what the role para guy will play is that he'll be like, well, we need to kill them all, or he'll be a more extreme version of her, and so she'll have to stand between him and them.

Yeah, it's very possibly likely.

I think.

Yeah, it's a good call.

Oh man, Okay, we got to get out of here.

This has been a lot of fun.

Guys.

No, no, no, one more thing.

I want to stop.

We'll be back soon.

Let's go around.

Tell people what what you got going on?

Where people can find your stuff online?

John Irons, tell people what they can find you what you got going on?

You can find me on the Infinite Potato Alliance podcast network, where we have fine shows like Moon Show, where we also discuss Pluribus and my show Captain Game Show, which is a trivia wordplay podcast.

Both of these fine gentlemen have been on I think at least a couple of times.

Matt's been on a little bit more.

He's on a very recent episode, yeah, a.

Couple weeks ago.

Yeah, the episode that's up now.

There will be another one coming out probably this week by episode two one.

I believe mister Matthew Carrow as a guest.

Check him out there as well.

Yeah, check it out.

Check out Camping Games.

It's a lot of fun and jays gotta think clear what you got going on?

Buden.

Yeah, you can always catch me over on Multiverse News, the weekly podcast where we talk about the latest and greatest in movie and TV news, even video game news sometimes.

So a lot of fun stuff happening over there.

Check that out wherever you get your podcast.

Multiverse News.

Yeah, absolutely, I'm on there as well.

So check out Multiverse News, check out the Marvels and Maguar's podcast, and check anything on the Stranded Pana Network.

We like making shows and we'll be right here next week to talk about Pluribus, so make sure you're subscribed peace We'll be watching.

Carol, you gonna finish that toast.

Thank you for listening to always watching a Stranded Panda podcast.

If you dig this podcast and want to see what else we do, go to strandedpana dot com for all our other myriad of podcasts in this geeky TV space.

Thanks again,