Today I'm Always watching.

We're talking about Pluribus episode eight, charm Offensive, all that refter this, Welcome to Always Watching the Train of pan of podcast where we talk about whatever geeky TV shows we want to.

My name is Matthew Carolyn with me on the panel.

Today we get Jay Scotty, Saint Clair, what's epping Budden?

Oh, not a lot in rare form.

I don't have a inappropriate quote to steal from Adam, so he'll be he'll be happy this week.

But I do have an observation.

The penultimate episode of Pluribus first season here was the horniest between the massage, the reference to the matrix orgy scene, the makeout session, but ultimately the train horn Right, it was the horniest episode by far.

All Right, all right, I would be a it wouldn't be a Jay Scotty joke if it didn't end on a pun at least about yeah and Adam Dell welcome friend.

He lo.

I was just going to give a shout out to Drony that's hanging in there, tough on the street light.

Shout out to Drony.

Yeah, that's right, I like it.

Well, you guys want to play a board game.

Really, yes, banana grams, what do we playing?

No?

You know all the words?

Yes?

Oh definitely not is such a love that so much?

Really a great scene and this is this episode is kind of what we've been waiting for Carol to care about, which, you know, the the other the other non joined people asked her like, you haven't asked them questions, and I mean she'd ask them questions about how to solve the problem, you know, she hasn't really just like asked them about their experience, And this is this episode you really did and get started to like get to know them in a way that's very different.

And I thought this was a really fun episode, really revelatory of the of the joined and like a lot of a lot of fun.

Like I was laughing really loud, and my father in law walked in was like, oh, you must be watching something really funny and I was like, yes, really, He's like, what is this comedy you're watching?

I'm like, I it's not a comedy.

I'm just laughing really hard at these different moments.

Yeah, So would you guys think I really enjoyed it.

I thought the you got to see a lot of personality from both of them, which is I think kind of the point Carol, we've seen go through her journey of you wanting to isolate herself from them, or not necessarily wanting to isolate, but being isolated to now she's working with them, But as we got through the episode, we realize it seems like it's more of a catch more bees with honey.

Is that the same?

Yeah, trying to be nice and she's still gathering that intel and then you know, they made it seem like it was going to be secretive, and then they were just like, yeah, we know you're still doing it.

It's okay.

I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I also think seeing her try to wedge in, I think she's trying to force Zoja to understand what it's like to have some like individual preferences by making her say I instead of we are asking her to say I.

And there was like a very quick moment in the show.

I can't remember exactly what Zosha said where it looked like she thought about it for a second or two, either before or after she said I.

I'm blanking on the moment.

But it was when they were I think it was right after the board game, but I think it was a lot of things underwritten in this in this episode, but still very enjoyable, very comedic.

As you said, I really enjoyed it.

Yeah, much like the two of you.

I think this is one of my favorite episodes across the entire season so far for a lot of reasons.

But I do feel like it was indicative of the show in so many ways.

It's the slow burn that's classic Vince Gilligan, like we've been talking about.

But again, I look at the titles, and the titles are always so appropriate and just the charm offensive.

We saw the journey again, a parallel journey here, everyone except for Manusos, who continues to be held at arm's length here is basically using charm as a tactic, and whether that's a survival tactic or seduction or what have you.

We saw a journey with Carol.

I think she started the episode coming across as very desperate and accommodating, like with the lemonade, like can I add more water?

What can I do to make this?

I'm sorry about the O'Keefe.

I fully intend on returning that.

So she seems the most apologetic and kind of like on the edge of her seat in terms of wanting to keep them happy and placated that she ever has, and I think that just speaks to the harrowing experience she went through, with the isolation and this desperation she experienced, but also with Zosia.

To your point there, Adam, the effort that she starts to make, or they start to make in terms of like correcting the pronoun like, it is natural for their semantics to say we us.

But she does start to make a genuine effort, So I think there are times that this seduction is manipulative.

But ultimately this was a little bit of a love story.

We saw Carol fall in love with the world, and I think we saw the others falling in love with Carol a little bit, showing genuine interest and they've always wanted to make her happy, but it felt a little more personal and genuine to me in this episode.

For better or for worse, And.

On the note of the love story, the entire world, at least anybody who has a crush on the author of their favorite Ricardo series, they had a really good night.

It's true.

That's true.

I find Yeah, I found like I can't I can't like put my rubber stamp on this as the love story episode because I can't tell the lines of deception that are happening.

And the line it's called the charm offensive after all, I mean, this is them.

She calls it out.

She says, you know, you guys are looking for you guys are trying to distract me.

And then she gets very very angry and like is is upset about them distracting her?

And then they start kissing her and it's like, well, that's just more distraction, right, And then when she comes downstairs from writing the thing, I found this line at once, like, like you said, they're they're genuinely trying with the pronouns, and they are genuinely trying with the pronouns.

But are they genuinely trying with the pronouns because they want to make her happy?

Or are they genuinely trying with the pronouns because it's a better distraction.

And I really like I felt manipulated, like she was being manipulated when they walked when she walked down the stairs and she said, well, what did you think of the first chapter?

And she and so she just without prompting what I love it?

Like it felt so rehearsed.

Uh and it wasn't there was no pause before.

It was so like genuine like she like she was just playing a role, just like they talk about with the waitress in this episode, Like just playing a role for Carol.

And that's what's so hard about all this is like, no, no matter what these this Zosha does to try to please Carol, she's always playing a role and not being the entire hive, you know, like anytime she's not being all of them, and anytime she's playing a game with her where she loses basically because it's almost impossible to find a game that's winnable by Carol really, so anytime she loses, she says, are you are you losing it on purpose?

And she's like, I keep playing and find out.

It's like, in many ways, it's no different than what Diabate is doing.

It's just more honest, you know.

It's Diabate is like a more honest version of this.

Carol took a long time to like devolve into finally like, yes, lie to me now, which any any Buffy Angel fans will well understand what I mean when I say lie to me now.

I don't want to spoil it.

It's one of the best moments in series.

And I don't want to spoil it, but there's a lie to me now so the thing that fits this plot perfectly, But I don't want to spoil it, even though it's like twenty years old, Like she's ready for them to lie to her, and like and or is she like it still breaks.

The veneer breaks, and she sees how ridiculous it is when when the when the burned down restaurant, she realizes it was burned down, Like, you are really putting on a show for me, Like this isn't just like opening reopenings with You are putting on a show to make me distracted and happy.

And and she lets herself be, you know, she lets herself sit and the whole morning and write the chapter of this book.

It's it's really dicey, Like I can't decide if they're just completely manipulating her or how much of it is genuine, you know.

But what's the alternative for her?

We talked earlier.

I don't know how one person takes on the entire collective power of the world with everyone's brain, scientists, chemists, teachers, chess masters barely, like, how do you take them on?

At some point it just kind of accept it's happening, kind of like in the diner, like all these people are around her.

These background actors, for example, are literally background actors in the show are also background actors in the Hive Mind.

How do you like?

It's almost like, yeah, I could run up against a brick wall fortified by steel all day every day, but I'm not going to get through it.

So at what point do I just stop trying and enjoy the view on that side of the wall.

Like, yeah, well there's two things.

There's like they won't defend themselves, they won't even pick an apple.

What would they do to stop Carroll if she gets on the right track, you know, like would they how much will they hide that information?

What can she learn?

And the other thing is Zosha feels Zosha seems when she's talking about that, which she's like, we wish you would stop.

There seems to be that the Hive Mind like believes there's a possibility Carol could figure it out.

I don't know, I don't know if that's true, but there's definitely like a vibe that they think they either what Carol will stopped for her sake, which I don't I don't know.

I don't trust them right now for some reason, they're lying to her too much.

I'm starting to lie, not trust uh and or because uh yeah, it feels like love bombing.

Sorry, I feel like I'm talking too much.

Guys, you just take it over.

I don't know they're lying too much though.

I mean they're being manipulative, there's no doubt about that.

But like when they mention that the antenna kind of thing, which I think is going to there's going to be a big snatch between the antenna light signal and Manuzo's ham radio said Noel that he was searching on.

I feel like that's some connect in some way.

But I don't know how much they're lying, unless we want to say lying is manipulation.

Yeah, that's what I mean.

I love the book, but that's what I'm saying about love bombing, the idea that like someone you meet someone, they love bomb you so much, they say everything you want to hear.

But then you start going like is this person even real?

Like they're too they're doing too much to please me, and now I'm not trusting anything they're doing.

You know, Well, it's a valid point, a valid question in terms of where does the manipulation and seduction end, and where is the candor and the the you know, being genuine and altruistic in this delivery of the affection and just you know, gifting upon someone because while it is manipulative, ultimately they are going to such great lengths to ensure her happiness and recreate memories to speak to the moment in the diner there that is when she looks around at all the background actors, if we will, and sees Brie and recognizes Brie and sees it for the artifice that it is.

That's when everything falls apart.

But again, the lying is happening on both sides of the table, Like she's lying about what she's writing and whether or not they're like what level of awareness they have at that point in time they could be lying about like, hey, you're writing a new Ocario book.

That's cool, we know what you're actually doing, but we're willing to play into this as well.

I think that's totally on the table.

But the part that does make me think that there is some real authenticity to their for lack of a better term, the way that they're falling in love with Carol or have this you know, genuine appeal and interest in Carol is when they say it'd be so nice to have something new to read, Like, think about it from their perspective, Like with the collective knowledge of the entire earth, there is no new knowledge for them.

They have no new experiences.

So Carol represents something very appealing to them, something outside of themselves, a source of new knowledge.

So not only the fact that she's writing something new, but the fact that they can learn something new about her, like that moment at when they're looking out at the vista and watching the train, Like, I don't think that was a farce.

I think that was true, Like they were actually learning about her in the moment that she like trains, because that's something she never did verbalize to anyone in her life.

And that's that's what I find so fascinating about this shows it's ultimately about the human condition, right.

Yeah, totally, And I am right there with you.

When they described one can do a Wakaro book, I was like, that is so cool.

She's the only like that we know of the only artists in the world, the only creative create a thing that they don't know and can create worlds that they don't know, and that's so interesting and neat.

But then she calls them on the fact that that's part of the deception and like but then they say, like, well, we do like the Wakaro books, but they kind of like don't They don't dispel the idea that that's part of the charm offensive of letting her know how much they want that book and everything.

So, I don't know.

It's hard because I love that concept of the hive mind wanting something I want.

I want to believe them.

I find myself in Carol's shoes where I want to believe them, and that's so effective.

I don't know.

There's that moment.

Where Carol has that opportunity to say, I like so many things about you, there's so many things that are great about you, but this is untenable.

This is unsustainable.

The fact that you can't even pick a tree or pick an apple off a tree to survive.

It's it's never gonna work.

We have to set things right.

And that kind of perfectly vocalized how I feel about the hive.

Like We've been talking a lot with you know, various guests.

John's come in and he was very pro hived Adam, you've talked about here, you've become increasingly more pro hive, and that's kind of where I've been at.

I see the benefits to the high, but to the high, but ultimately it's like, if there is no ingenuity, no individuality, that's that's again, there's no one way my personal belief, there's no one way for everyone to live.

We have to have outliers and ingenuity, for lack of a better term.

Yeah, I completely agree.

I mean and and willingness to fight for survival, you know exactly.

Yeah, it's tough.

It's being a survival.

I think that's kind of what the whole love scene was between Zosha and Carol.

It's it wasn't so much like I think Johnny mentioned, they're kind of falling for each other, at least seemingly attraction alas.

I don't know if it's so much that as it is.

She's lonely, as we noticed that in the last couple episodes, just that primal need for physical touch.

He's had nothing, and I don't know if it's so much falling for her as it is.

Pardon me for being crashed, but she needed to get late.

I don't know.

I don't know how much of an emotional attachment there was, so that I guess is what I'm trying to say.

I hear you, but I think there is something to the fact that like they they they gave her that experience, they played along with what she wanted in that moment, but also like kind of manipulated her into that.

I do not think the Hive the Hive when they start kissing Carol, the Hive does not have that desire.

I don't believe.

So when they're kissing Carol in that moment, they are trying to actively change what she is saying and thinking in that moment, and they do it, and then they she wakes up and then serves the Hive by writing that book.

Writing the book, like so they effectively completely derail her for that day.

And maybe that's all they're doing is Zosha's whole project is as she said, distraction.

They're trying to distract her from doing something that could disrupt their plans.

And like I was pro Hive from the beginning of the show, and like now this episode has made me like it's not their fault in a way.

So in a way I.

Don't fault them, but like it's really when I see all this perception that Carol is inviting, it makes me really uncomfortable with the Hive.

Like when the Hive is this sort of like quirky character that doesn't understand the world or or does understand the world, but like doesn't understand individuality and doesn't understand how Carol works exactly, and there's just this genuineness to them.

But when they start pretending to be the people that the like individuals like Carol's demanding this episode, it just makes me feel like they're deceiving them and because they are, but they're being asked to do it.

So it's very complicated.

Yeah, there's just that that undercurrent of artifice to everything no matter what.

And I you know, I think Vince Skilligan and the writers of this show and everyone that works on this show, they're all operating at the height of their talents.

And one of the things I appreciate about Vince Skilligan as a visual storyteller is you know, the themes that are at play both from the writing and a visual standpoint.

So I do have to think about like the opening, not the opening scene with Manusos, but the opening scene with Carol and Zoshia where it is, you know, all centered around the lemonade.

So I made a note, and I do think it is kind of just indicative of what I think this episode was trying to get across and everything that we've been saying about this relationship and the just you know, you know, vacillating between feeling really genuine but ultimately having this this air of artifices.

When life gives you artificial pink lemonade, concentrate, you make pink lemonade.

Yeah, oh goodness me.

It's almost like Carol was trying to navigate this new world by exactly what you said.

I like that.

That's good.

Yeah, I agree, And like, I just don't know, huh.

I don't know what I'm rooting for, and it's very it's a very uncomfortable place because I do, like I have cared about the high from the beginning, but now I'm starting to It's just this episode made me uncomfortable, and that's great.

It was a great episode.

I will say, I do think there is something genuine in them wanting the Wakaro books, and I do think there that train scene was probably the most genuine scene that I've seen, because they seemed genuinely curious, you know, and that's something that they can't really be otherwise, it's something genuinely curious about another person.

Yeah, and Carol as well, you know, asking questions about Zosha, and even though again it's it's under the artifice of her having to pretend to be the individual, we are learning about Zosha for the first time in a real way.

We knew she came from a impoverished looking country that was probably pretty war torn.

I think we decided it was in the Middle East, maybe Jordan.

I don't know if that's if that's been definitively determined or not, but that feels right to me.

But yeah, just the whole anecdote about the mango ice cream, I thought that was really lovely.

And again, like whether it's artifice or not, it kind of sold me in the interaction.

So maybe maybe I'm as bad as Carol, just willing to buy in to the artifice and be told this story and kind of, you know, fall in love with the the person that Zosha is in my own regard.

But what I also appreciate about that scene and what I appreciate about the episode as a whole, and it's something I've noted about the series, but I think it really did come to the forefront for me in this episode again to speak to just the all the talent operating at the height of their game here, the cinematography and like the color theory that was on display in this episode I really stood out to me from the opening shot where it's a blurred out shot of like the hospital shoe with the blood dripping on and just inherently creative.

But to go back to the scene about that was so revelatory for Zosha about the mango ice cream Carol.

She's been wearing yellow for so much of the season and we even had, you know, the yellow car that Manusos was driving for his journey.

She changes to coral, like a pink like, softer kind of coral outfit in this episode, and Zosha is wearing a peacock blue.

So just the fact that those colors are so complimentary but still opposites, I just I just found myself really appreciating because it's all it is is a a scene in the kitchen, but it is just so it just invites you in as a viewer and draws the eye in and whether or not you're picking up on it in the moment or not.

It's it's just the themes are so rought throughout, it's so well made.

I have to appreciate it, almost.

Like they're they're still different, but they're coming a little closer on the spectrum.

If you will, mm hmm.

Absolutely, I love that.

Hm.

I'm also very happy that we did find out that dogs are not part of the hive mind.

Yes, that was a quick little thing, but that was I feel like that's going to come back to play.

I'm embarrassed by how long it took me to get the play on words with the name Bear Jordan being Air Jordan.

I was like, yeah, Jordan, what are they trying to do there?

Air Jordan?

Very good?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I will say like I recognized it as a pun immediately and for a second like Bear Jordan, who's oh yeah Air Like it.

Did take me a second.

Two.

I just I just found out when you told me so, neither one of you should feel bad for me.

Yeah.

Oh it that scene where she says, uh, this isn't about to turn to the orgy scene from the Matrix, is it?

And she looks at it and says not unless you want to it like it was so funny because I think she was being genuine, but it came off as like a really rye joke too, Like, I don't know, it was so good.

It's such a good moment.

I left so hard.

That would definitely be a da Bonte's like, yes, yes, I would love that, thank you.

Yeah.

Going back to the love scene, the I was thinking about this as we were talking, and it kind of goes against what I was saying earlier.

But there's so many stories out there about how like love conquerors all.

I just one of the just the biggest used story tropes ever, the.

The Hive mine.

Does they understand what love is because they they pull in everybody who loves their family, love their significant others and all that.

But I'm curious to what happens if they fall.

In love with Carol, Like if somehow that does happen, and then the entire hive mind falls in love because now that they've had a romantic relationship, like Diabante, he's having sex with a bunch of women, but it's not there's no feelings involved.

I wonder if love, specifically possibly Zosha, if that could do something that could hinder the high frequency or said no or whatever.

But I think that could be an interesting way that the stuature goes.

What would love, real love on the hive mind side do about this?

Now you've got me wondering if that kind of love is even possible, like a romantic sense of love, because they talked about like there is no ownership anymore, there is no private property.

So do they even have the capability to like because their love is kind of omnipresent for lack of a better than it extends to all beings that are part of this collective unity.

But even the individuals that aren't, they they you know, they're of show an outpouring of care and compassion for these individuals.

Even Manusos who's been openly hostile to them, they love him in some fashion, right, So that is that is a very good question, and again kind of ties back to ultimately, is you know the artifice of romantic love?

Is that just a manipulation tactic?

Well, it kind of comes down to what you believe love is, and that is I mean not to be too you know, materialist about it, but I think there are different There are different aspects to love.

There is the you know, the knowledge that you would do something for you, you would protect someone, you want what's best for them, like the sort of like practical kind of how they feel for the rest of the world, the entire world that you have that for someone.

But then there's also the like you know, chemical like neurochemical signals to the brain that come from like romance and sexuality and all that.

And I think it's possible they discuss it when they talk about the massage scene, how Zosha feels all those things.

The rest of the hive knows all those things.

It's possible that Zosha, the body that is Zosha, could feel all those you know, chemical reactions of like the different chemicals that cause love to kind of manifest that sort of sexual romantic love, and then she actually could feel it separately.

But like the rest of the hive knows it, like understands it in a way that's like more intellectual.

It almost seems like knows what that feels like, but doesn't necessarily feel it themselves.

So there is something to that where it's like maybe I don't know if it's it could disrupt the hive, but I could see it disrupting like Zosha's place in the Hive as she starts to feel a particular kind of affection for Carol.

Yeah, it's interesting.

I think there's something they really did there with both the massage scene.

I think that was kind of forecasting the sex scene in a way, and both of them were framed above Zoshia with Zosha's back exposed, exposing the scar on Zosha's back, which reminds us of kind of like what the body of Zosha has gone through this season, and like how it's been this sort of plaything for I think for Carol and the Hive, you know, the high end Carol like are using Zosha because she resembles this character and it's it has nothing to do with her mind or who she is.

It has to do with like just Zosia's looks.

And is there something I don't know dark about the massage scene to me and the love scene where that scar is always visible, because it's showing like this is this different than when they let her walk in with a grenade, you know, like the sort of using her body in this way, I don't know.

That's a really good point, and it does bring to mind the opening sequence with Menusos where he's got the doctor at knfe point with the scalpel to his throat, and everyone around there they they kind of have a nervous smile, but they're not they don't seem overly concerned about it.

They're like, this is okay, manusos, you know, just do your thing.

We're here for you.

We're here to protect you and accommodate you.

So we've seen time and time again they are willing to sacrifice individuals for the goals of the collective.

But what you brought up about, like, what is the definition of love?

That's that's a great question because my personal definition is kind of, you know, in a biological sense, in an organic sense, is talking about biological imperatives.

It's it's when you are capable of sacrifice.

It's even though I know from a biological survival perspective, this would be better for me to act in self interest, but I'm going to decide to act outside of that, to show compassion to someone else because I care about them.

That that really is a great point to bring up because one of the big reveals we got in this episode again to go back to the biological imperative.

We talked about it a little bit, but the fact that they see this virus as a gift and they have to pay it forward and that's ultimately their their big goal.

So even though they're willing to show love and affection to Carol.

And again, what's the point you're making about like Zosha maybe being a sacrificial pawn.

Are they willing to put Zosha in the crosshairs and even you know, risk the potential of her being disjoined if she does get enough affection and autonomy and kind of stimuli that is unique to her to draw her closer to Carol?

Is that is that something they're willing to do to exclude her from the you know, the greater mission.

And it's just it's bringing great things to mind, So a great point.

It's it's really interesting to think that like that might be a part of it.

Part of me hates it, uh because I think the idea of like love conquering all there's like a silliness to it.

But at the same time, I love that shit.

I love that this show makes us kind of rethink what we would typically think right versus wrong is because it's not the world that we live and we can't even relate, so we have to almost completely revamp our thinking, and I really for all the reasons I love this shows.

M h.

Well, and that's it.

They won't take one soul without consent, but they will take a planet without consent.

Right, There's something weird about that that I found very like.

It had me thinking all my Star Trek thoughts about the prime directive and like not disrupting other cultures and things like like this.

I don't like the idea of building this antenna, even though I understand from their perspective, like I said in episode two or three, we of course, if you see someone drowning, you'd send them a life raft, you know, or a life arrist.

Yeah.

And again it's why this show is so fascinating who's right, who's wrong?

Who is our protagonist?

Who is our antagonist?

Because you can find yourself rooting for any one of them at any point in time, be it Carol be at Zosia as a representative of the collective or Manusos.

And again, I just find myself always on the edge of my seat and very conflicted when it comes to Manusos, because he's disciplined, he's principled, he is the most dogmatic in his approach to where he stands against the Hive, and I think there's something very admirable about that that at the same time, I cannot, you know, vouch for what he's doing.

He's being very violent and threatening and putting himself in harm's way when there's an easier alternative.

So yeah, it's you could look at him as a protagonist, the ultimate protagonist, or you could also And I think that's coming to a head here as we approach the final episode, as someone like Carol has started to acquiesceque and capitulate what is what happens when in an immovable object unstoppable force meets something flexible mm hmm.

And on all those characters that you just mentioned, I'm sitting here, there's been a couple of times this season where I'm like, I'd probably just be a dia bonte.

I just go to the pitthhouse in Vegas and just kind of live out my life because what am I going to do about it?

So you've got that other angel.

Love it and yeah, but yeah, as you mentioned Manusa's they's all going to come to a head, which, by the way, if you don't know, the finale is coming out on Wednesday, which means I believe it'll probably drop Tuesday night at nine pm Eastern, So for anyone who doesn't know.

That, just a heads up on that.

Oh wow, that is stentially in change for the holidays.

So soon, so soon?

Yes?

Well, uh well, oh you meant mentioning.

Oh that reminded me of something that I thought in the middle of this episode that I don't think this theme necessarily runs through the whole episode, but uh, it may run I don't know in a way it runs through everything in this show, So take with it what you will.

Uh.

I've watched a lot a lot of things about like how toxic nostalgia, how toxic nostalgia is as a concept, because nostalgia by itself is doesn't advance our species, you know, like we're not doing when we It kind of runs through, especially a lot of the franchise stuff.

I love when when a franchise is just making a thing that's just like nostalgia bait and it's not truly trying to either push the concepts forward or tell a new story or tell something fresh.

It's the worst kind of art because it's like it's and it's it's kind of why we talk about AI being so bad because it never it's never come to produced a new human idea.

It's just going to keep reusing old human ideas.

And I think there's something about that with like pop culture in general doing that, just re reproducing and reproducing the same human ideas over and over instead of like trying to push something forward.

And I think there's something really being said about that with Carol, even though she's writing these little car novels that are you know, slock.

But the thing that really got me was when she sat down at the diner and realized the cost of the nostalgia that they were running for her, and how they were trying to lure her back into this place in the diner where it's the happiest time in her life and she realizes it and realizes it burned down, and how much they spent to lure her back there instead of letting her blaze new ideas and new and be an individual.

And I think there's something really powerful about that.

And I think there's something really powerful about that when it comes to art and in general, like we've been saying creativity and ingenuity and how important that is to a species and its ability to adapt, And I just I just found that really interesting.

And I don't know the combination of like the death of art and AI and then the life of nostalgia and how it works.

And yeah, yeah, there's some they're playing with ideas there that I didn't really expect to be hit up against in this episode.

Yeah, I think you're totally onto something there.

But to just kind of speak to what a kind of catch twenty two it is is and I didn't really come to this conclusion until as you were pashing it out there.

But the other thing that happens in that scene is as she's reminiscing on the glory days and you know, those were the best days when I was you know, didn't have I think Zosha is the one that says this, but I'm gonna Carol was kind of in that mindset, didn't have two coins to rub together, stealing office supplies to make her dreams come true.

While yes, that again, I feel like I've been using the word artifice too much.

While that is the moment that kind of allowed her to realize, you know, the artifice on display.

I think there is something just to give a little bit of value to nostalgia.

Sometimes it can be a motivating fact act right, she was like I got through that tough time and it resulted in in so many great things in my life.

So I think in that moment she had the ability to be somewhat present and again kind of rally and be like, I got through something tough before I can do it again.

I think you're right, But I also think I think that's that's that's more to me, and that that's more memory and learning.

Nostalgia is when you rest in your past.

In my opinion, okay, so so so to me, like that the thing you're describing where she she shocks herself out of it and realizes the the artifice on display as you say, I love that phrase.

That's good, keep using it, scoots.

Okay, I do.

I do find it.

It's it just has a nice sound to it.

But when when she shocks herself out of that and realizes, wait, no, there's something real, like I I could be drawn back into this, but I fought to get out of this, like this was a part of my life that I went through and learned from and moved on, not where somewhere I should live.

And that's when she gets up and leaves, and I think that I agree with you.

Memory and seeing your past and the lessons you've learned and all that, that's all wonderful.

It's when you decide to rest in your nostalgia and not push forward, that's it becomes toxic.

It it's like any impulse.

It's like people always talk about toxic masculinity.

It's not that masculinity is toxic.

It's that like if you overdrive certain aspects of a thing, it becomes toxic.

You know.

Sure, I've almost got a completely different take on this.

I think nostalgia is one of the absolute basis for love, like and just be a little metaphor a moment and talk about Marvel.

So when I go back, I'll be strolling through TikTok and I'll see the scene where Cap spoilers for endgame.

Cap grabs meillionaire and the entire crowd cheers and like it.

Even they use that in the marketing for the endgame teaser that they put out a few weeks ago for the re release.

Like that.

Nostalgia reminds me of that community moment of being in a theater and everybody screaming, and I'll get goosebumps sometimes to take it more on a personal level.

You know, I remember fondly and this may be you know, sitting in the memories as you were talking about Matt, but you know, time with my parents and watching old Christmas movies with my parents and just you know, all these memories of my life growing up.

It.

I wouldn't say it doesn't advance me because those are the moments that I want to mate with my child and that is a.

Core part of love to me.

So I get what you're saying.

I just have a I think nostalgia is one of the most powerful tools in the world.

And them using it to try and get Carol to the more comfortable with them, I think it kind of weaponizes that that that ideal of how powerful nostalgia can be.

No, man, you're in the trap.

You're in the trap, Adam, No, I don't.

I don't just dismiss that.

I agree with you.

We have an entire network where we talk about franchises, and franchises play on nostalgia all the time.

It's just when you, to me, it becomes talk.

It's like I said, nostalgia is not bad.

It's toxic when it when it takes over everything else and you're not pushing for new things and new ideas and telling new stories.

Oh you're if you're only using nostalgia to bring people in, I'm with you.

But using it to enhance what you're trying to do at a current time, I think is a perfectly fair.

It's a tool, it's a tool, and it can be used in various ways.

I just think that like in our culture, I do think we are a little too locked into nostalgia to the point that, like the only movies that make money are sequels, you know what I mean.

Like, so we're not creating new ideas, we're not creating new original content because why would you do that when an ip is the is the most And like I'm saying this as the guy who does the Marvel Cinematic Gavers podcast, I am am.

I am not like.

Denying my love for nostalgia and my love for these characters and my love for like franchises.

It's just that I also have to acknowledge that that like there's a there's a toxic element to that, and you have to you have to be be cognizant of it.

And I just think that in that moment, Carol got lured in and then like locked that she locked in and went, oh crap, no, I'm out of here.

She just took off.

She didn't even say anything.

Well, to kind of jump back to the scene that spurred this conversation about the value and the utility of nostalgia, you know, it is that scene in the diner which brings a couple of things to mind for me to talk about the show from a little bit more of a technical and production standpoint, That diner that was recreated there, the Lachlan's Diner as I believe it was it was called, was actually a visual reference to David Lynch and Twin Peaks, and I won't want them to be you know, the end all be all when it comes to David Lynch.

But I have seen the first two seasons of Twin Peaks and I appreciate, appreciated that reference there.

But what it also brought to mind for me is when Carol does have that moment where she just kind of stops, gets up without saying anything, and exits and the others react.

You get to see all the cars on the streets come to a stands.

I thought, Okay, they want to keep her safe because they don't know where she's going she could run out into the street.

But what I picked up on and maybe I'm reaching too far here, but both cars that come to a stop were blue.

Zosha's car of choice is blue, and if I'm not mistaken, it was tough to tell because it's a nighttime sequence.

But the car that she ends up taking to make it back to Carol's house, if it's not blue, it's like silver blue.

But I thought it was blue.

So why is their preference blue vehicles?

Is that a safety reason or is it, you know, the lowest impact on the environment.

Do blue cars reflect the fewest UV rays?

I don't know.

I found myself just questioning that because if did feel intentional, and I know I grew up.

You know, insurance always costs more on red cars because again, to speak to color theory, people are prompted to.

Drive faster in red cars.

It feels a little bit more like a hot rod, right, But to my knowledge, blue cars would actually be more dangerous like neutral colored cars, like your your gray's, your silvers.

You're more reflective, like that reflects more of the natural like environment around you.

So the potential for not seeing a car for what it is is there but you know, I feel like I'm spinning out a little bit here.

But I just I did find myself noting that and wondering what the intention behind it was.

Why blue vehicles.

That's interesting.

I didn't catch they were all blue.

I noticed that the car that actually thought it might have been a continuity error because the car that Carol speeds off in is blue, and I thought it was the same car that Zosha arrives in, which I thought was like, right, I thought so too.

So no, okay, well, well it doesn't make sense though.

If Carol sped off in it, it would be at Carol's house, but Zosha is still at the diner.

And then Zosha pulls up in that same car, which I thought was a weird it's a different car.

Okay, it looked like the same car, but it might have just because they're all blue.

I didn't catch they were all blue.

I thought that they were.

I thought that was just sim a singular blue car that we were tracking, but I didn't see that all the cars were this stop for blue.

Yeah, I had to rewatch that.

I do want to throw this out.

I've never seen this, but I saw this on I think Facebook.

David Lynch's mouhulland Drive is almost a shot for shot.

This the diner scene is a shot for shot recreation of a scene from Mahull and Drive, which and also doing Twin Peaks, and there's a lot of nests between those two.

So I'm not I'm with you, I'm not an expert on it, but I did see it, and I just googled it, and yeah, they said that there's a nest between Mahull and Drive in Twin Pets, So for those who are into that, you know, enjoy that as well.

Neat last thing I got is I did just want to jump back to the opening sequence with Manusos there and again to speak to his principles, the fact that he, you know, wants to know exactly he wants an itemized receipt of his hospital bills so.

That he can pay it.

I did have to make note of the amount there, eight seventy seven dollars and fifty three cents for a life saving surgery and operations.

So it's not just in the United States that healthcare is prohibitively costs costs.

Oh yeah, healthcare is expensive, which is unfortunately.

Yes, Indeed, although I don't know I don't know how long you'd been there, but eight thousand dollars actually doesn't sound like that much to me for like multiple nights in a hospital bed, Like the hospital beds are expensive, like thousands of dollars a night, which that might be what this is, but yeah, crazy.

Two nights in the hospital for our pregnancy or our birth and everything.

Just the induction alone was like without insurance, like sixteen thousand dollars.

Oh yeah, yeah, and then we also had a c session on top of that.

So I don't even I don't even I don't even want to know what our actual money would have been if we didn't have insurance.

Yeah, I got a poll up removed from a vocal cord once, and they didn't They sent me a bill and at the top it said how much the thing was, and then at the bottom how much I had to pay.

Still, like luckily insurance did cover most of it.

But it was like eighteen thousand dollars for like a very minor poly up removal from my vocal cord without staying in the hospital at all, just as like an outpatient.

And yeah, healthcare is crazy, man, that was ten years ago.

Yeah, not real money.

The one tip I have to throw out to anybody.

If you are a self pay, like you don't have insurance, when you get your bill, go to the hospital and tell them you're you're paying by yourself, and they will just drop the cost.

Like that is a thing I will say, They will do it every time, because obviously I can't know that, but like every yeah, that is the thing that I've I've I've heard and experienced myself when like a thing costs a certain amount and you just go in and you have like a little counsel session with the person.

Because they don't charge the insurance the amount they say on the bill.

They charge the interest some other amount, so it's so like they're not they're not ever making like like in my case, it's like eighteen thousand dollars, they don't ever actually make that eighteen thousand.

They make eighteen thousand minus whatever they've agreed to with the insurance company.

So the cost is really opaque.

So a lot of times so if you go in and say, like I'm self paid, they'll be like, oh, we'll give you an eighty percent discount.

It's like crazy, it's still more expensive than if you have insurance, but Yeah, is a thing.

More healthcare and insurance hacks.

Check out the black podcast coming to the stranded podcast strikes.

That's right.

Do you guys have any preditions now?

It seems like the finale coming up on a Wednesday, will feature Caro and Menuso's finally meeting to at the end we had you have a visitor coming.

So I'm really curious about how they're going to communicate because he's been working on his English.

That's great, but he's not going to be like fluent in English when it gets there, and so they're going to have to really work through that conversation, which Vince Gillen does a really good job of that.

Like in Breaking Bad there were a lot of Spanish speaking scenes and they did a really good job of like navigating those issues.

So I have no doubt they will, but I do think it will.

It'll be a barrier.

And then do you use an interpreter, because yeah, like you can't do trust the Manuso's trust an interpreter, you know.

Definitely not So Yeah, I wonder if Diabante knows the language.

That right to see no Spanish can come over.

That would be a really great thing.

I would love to see Diabate come and be their translator.

That would be awesome.

He would be such a great foil to Manusos.

I would love to see them interact that at some point.

They have to surely they will make that happen, if not this season, in a future season, like actually, yeah, Manuso's being willing to finally be around the hive, Like going and seeing how Diabate lives would be like such an affront to Manusos and it would be really fascinating to watch.

Yeah, to that point.

At the time of this recording, I do not know if we've got an official confirmation whether or not we're going to get a second season, but I have to imagine it's just a matter of time.

With what you brought up previously, Adam about this being the most watched show in Apple TV's history.

But that being said, I do feel like this final episode that we're kind of predicting here is going to end on a pretty major cliffhanger in some way, Like it just kind of has to with like where we're at, with what's been revealed what hasn't been at this point.

But I do kind of want to come back to what you brought up there Adam about the radio signal that Manusos knows about because he's the only one with that knowledge, and whether or not that's a part of the Hive, something outside of the Hive.

I feel like it's.

Going to be brought to the forefront and teased in some kind of way.

And my suspicion is that it is going to be something that is in antithesis to the Hive and their ability to communicate.

And again, the reveals that we got this episode were pretty substantial in terms of like the Kepler twenty two B and learning that we'll never know anything about those people, but the fact that we learned that the way they communicate has to do something with the like the bioelectric charge of the body and the fact that it's like an unconscious type of function.

I do think we're going to get uh more and and and maybe some information on how to interrupt that, and maybe that will come by way of this this radio frequency.

Hmm.

Interesting.

Yeah, No, that's a really good point.

So she even says like radio when she said to.

The biolog does so what if that?

What if what they're hearing at that frequency is a shadow or a or a representation of the communication of the high Sure, what if that's what he's hearing.

All other radio communication in the world is dead.

So he has his little book the frequency that they are communicating at.

I like that all this came from a signal al wasn't a radio signal from space?

So yeah, see why not?

Yeah?

Yeah, sure that's interesting.

That's interesting.

And like, man, so often when I hear an idea that we're talking about, I'm like that that doesn't see Like I say, hear and go like U and I hate I hate to say this because it's but it's it is true.

Sometimes you guys will say an idea and I'm like, really, that seems too like I don't know, like like a it's like too much like a superhero show or something to like have a frequency that blah blah.

And then I'm like, no, that's exactly what they've laid out in the show, Like it's in there, you know what I mean.

Like when I say like looking at thinking about like how that works, I'm like, yeah, he has a frequency and there's some sort of signal happening on it.

He has taken the time to analyze it.

It makes total sense that that might be the frequency.

That yeah, that's that's interesting.

God, I love podcasting about the stuff because there's so many things that I don't think of at all, and you guys will say something and it spurs on us to talk about it and bounce it around, and then it comes to something that's really interesting and fun.

Yeah, even if it's not real, even it's not what's gonna happen, it's like fun to speculate about.

The other thought, I'm kind of having just spur of the moment here is again looking because Zosha calls the people of Kepler twenty two b like, we will never know anything about them, but we love them and we appreciate them for this gift.

Again talking about the virus as a gift.

What if this other frequency or the one the radio frequency.

What if because it took so long to receive the first signal, what if those people of Coupler twenty two be realized, Oh, this isn't as good as it seems, and they developed like a cure to it, and this radio frequency is the cure.

So hmmm that yeah, yeah, it could be, it could be yeah, And then what do you I really I am expecting at some point, as I mentioned, someone's gonna become disconnected from the Hive, and we'll get like a perspective of someone who's had it and who has now been disconnected and like what that means to them, and it's just gonna be really good.

I'm really I'm really pumped for so many things on the show, and then it keeps doing these as we keep talking about it's a slow burn, these episodes that are absolutely fascinating, explore really great ideas, but then there's still so much left on the table for this concept to run and run and run and have interesting things to talk about.

I love it.

Almost like going back to I think it was episode three or four, whenever she did the truth serum, I saw some where I'm not again, I'm not sure where, but there's a theory that when they were all just saying please Carol and they were crying, was the hive mind actually got disconnected a little bit there, and that was the emotions of the people inside light please Carroll help us.

And I wasn't on the episode that discussed that with you guys, that's the one that I had to miss, So maybe we have seen a small window into Please Caroli help us, please can help us.

And I thought that was an interesting note.

Yeah, oh man, speaking of Carol, the Carol you suck better or you suck Carol popping up on the thing.

That was so good.

It's so so good.

And it's like great to see the hive like playing with her, you know, like like actually, and that did seem like a genuine like they're trying to make her laugh, and it was just so nice to see the hive like that was a creative thing for the hive to do, you know what I mean, Like it was nice.

It was just really nice and funny.

And yeah, you know, it's no different for them than having a conversation and saying you suck, but they have this like element that they can do weird stuff like that, and it just made it really fun.

Yeah.

Another moment that was really funny for me that was kind of like the flip of that, though it was still them trying to be very accommodating to Carol, almost to a fault, is when Carol's kind of like following her arguments falling apart.

She's like, you know, I had.

To take this Georgia O'Keeffe because there's a lot of animals out there.

You know what happened, would happen if a buffalo wanted started to jump up against you, like, we don't want to buffalo eating the mona Lisa.

And then so she's just like, oh, yeah, yeah, that could potentially be problematic.

Do you want us to secure those buildings?

And it was just really it was really good.

Yeah it was.

It was really funny, but I think like it was genuine.

I think they're gonna here those buildings.

Yeah, that's really totally.

Another moment I really liked was they're standing there in Albuquerque and she says, is everyone back?

And you see in the background planes going by?

Did you guess catch that?

Yeah?

It is like a line of planes like slowly descending into the airport.

Like it's just it's just funny and interesting to see, like the background, just a bunch of planes going by, like knowing that everyone's traveling back.

It's just another visual way to represent it.

We saw the cars full of people leaving and now we're seeing these airplanes flying back in thought that was neat.

Yeah, all right.

Well I guess that's about it.

I've got you guys, got anything else?

Not for this one?

Oh well next episode, it sounds like we're going to be getting a visitor, so I'm really excited to see how that goes.

Oh yeah, we'll be back right here on Always Watching.

Make sure to subscribe.

You know we're covering this.

I think we'll be starting Fallout soon.

We haven't really figured out, but I think it's out.

I think it's maybe out already.

The first episode is I've seen the first episode.

Oh okay, good, I haven't even had a time, So we'll probably be covering that soon, as well as all the other things covered here on the feed, where we cover all the TV shows we feel like talking about.

So join us next time.

Peace, We'll be watching, Carol.

Thank you for listening to Always Watching a Stranded Panda podcast.

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