Hello everyone, welcome back to the Underrated Movie podcast.

This is a podcast where we discuss films that are underrated, under appreciated, and ones that have flown under the radar and passed most people by.

I am your host Derek Mcduff and this is final episode of our Leica retrospective.

We will be discussing 2019's Missing Link, starring Hugh Jackman, Zoe Saldana and of course as the titular Missing Link himself, Zach Galifianakis.

But, and this is of course, I should mention, also written and directed by a returning like a director, Chris Butler, who also did Paranorman.

Joining me to discuss this great film and cap off the series is a returning guest.

And that would be Jamo from the old switcharoo.

How's it going, Jamo?

Oh, been so great, Derek.

I'm so happy you're having me back.

For everyone who didn't just turn off the podcast because you heard it was a Jamo episode, thank you.

I'm going to try to make it with you a while.

No, people are tuning in because it's a Jamo.

I don't know.

That's how that works.

I don't think they get an actually, maybe they get an alert.

I don't know.

But anyway, though, what a what a movie.

I'm so excited to talk to you about it.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah, I, I am excited to talk to you about it.

And yeah, I, I think I probably do need something to give the alert to people to tune in because spoiler alert, this is not a popular movie.

And I don't mean it's not well liked because like all of like his films, this is a film that did well critically.

However, this movie did not do well at the box office.

And to the point where, as I kind of mentioned before, I I did not have really any trouble finding guests for any of the other like a films.

There was people who were like, I talked about mutual friend of ours, Rhode Island, Rhode Island.

She she was like, I want to talk about the box trolls, you know, like, let's go and you know, so it was easy to find people want to talk about Paranorman Kubo.

I've had that guest lined up for literally a year or two now.

Just didn't know when I was going to talk about Kubo before I'd even had this retrospective conceived of.

But I nobody, there was nobody I had ready for a missing link episode.

And when I put the call out there to, to pass guests, you kind of perked up your hand and said, well, I don't know the film, but I, I love being on underrated.

And I said, well, I love having you on Underrated.

Quit bragging.

So let's let's.

Have you on to talk about this one?

So yeah, like I said, I this is one of the few, like, films I don't think Ice even saw initially in theaters.

I did catch it when it came on streaming not too much longer later.

But yeah, so this is a first time watch for you, Jamo.

Did you like this movie?

What did you think of it?

So I think it's heartbreaking how badly this movie did, how kind of unknown it is.

So like I did wait like a day or two and I was like, let's see if anyone takes Missing Link because Derek is so damn fun.

And you know, I'll watch anything for you.

You know, I've I've done a podcast on pink.

I've watched Pink flamingos for another podcast.

OK, so it's nothing nothing.

I'm real cheap.

I'm a cheap date.

So you know, when I threw my hat into the ring to cover this, I had never seen it before.

And it is a new obsession.

I think this movie is so damn good, so damn funny, thought provoking in ways I didn't expect, and I just feel like this movie was like impossible to market because like the main character articular character, the missing link, Mr.

Link, or Susan as he's later called in the movie.

He's cute, but he's not like Pokémon cute.

He's not like Hello Kitty cute.

It's kind of reminds me of like a toy my grandma would have on her couch, like a weird plush thing wearing a suit.

But yeah, I think I'm rambling too much because it's just so many cool things to say about it, but this movie deserved way better than it got.

Yeah, I I definitely agree.

Like I I think this was a movie that's like, how do you even market this thing?

This is the first like a film that doesn't have kid protagonists, at least one kid protagonist in it.

So it doesn't have that like built in animation base that you have with so many of these films of having like, oh, like here's Coraline, here's Norman, here's Kubo that that that so kids will want to go see.

This is like a movie about like a guy, like kind of a jerk who's like trying to find like these ancient creatures.

And and it's also had the disadvantage of being one, being the most, I will say, expensive stop motion film ever made.

This one was this one was.

Yeah.

Which you would think it would be like Kubo, right?

Right.

Because Kubo on its face seems like so much bigger and epic and more ambitious.

And in a lot of ways, Kubo feels like kind of everything that like it had been building to.

And this feels a little more small and quaint because it's just kind of these characters.

But if you go and like kind of like look at it like with a, through a fine grain lens, this is a huge movie because a, it's like globetrotting.

They're going all these, all these really diverse sets, unlike, you know, Coraline, which is set mostly in one location, a very exquisite, incredible set.

But this had 30 something sets and they're fucking huge.

Like if you look at the behind the scenes stuff like I love that we talked about this for 3B that like they always do a little thing at the end the credits.

I'm showing you how intense it was.

And then one in this one is like that elephant scene where they're doing like the tracking and you're seeing this huge elephant in like these sets that are like even people are on.

It's like, you know, they're like a sixth size or like a third size of like what they would actually look like.

Because, you know, these are all very these these models of these are about a foot tall usually.

I think frost was 13 inches, they said, and Mr.

Link was 16 inches.

So it's very, very elaborate, huge things that they're building.

So, and they're spending a lot of money.

You know, Mr.

Link was like one of the most, like, intricate models that they'd ever made.

So while it may not be as flashy as Kubo, it really feels like very much a culmination of all big things that like had been doing.

And while that was a big price tag, it did not pay off of the box office because this movie made about worldwide about like $25 million or something like that.

Like, so, yeah, it lost, you know, once you factor in marketing and all that, this movie lost over $100 million.

That's that's so unfair and like it just it really feels like it comes down to commercial tastes because it's this kids movie that's not a musical, not about kids.

You know, a lot of the conflicts are really kind of adult.

Like this feels like a very adult story with just hilarious slapstick.

I don't know if the comedy lands for you, but.

Oh, it absolutely does.

Yeah, so for I don't know how many people listen to this without having watched the movie first, but those who haven't seen it, the premise is that Hugh Jackman is the voice actor for Lionel Frost, an adventurer who's trying to go find cryptids.

That's like his big quest is find things that don't are, you know, aren't known to exist in the scientific community because he's trying to get in with this Adventurers League.

That's a bunch of, you know, evolution denying, 1% blue blood asshole men, you know, like that.

But but, you know, he wants to be them because they don't think he can.

And he's just very driven that way.

And so that leads him to meet Link, or as he adopts the name later, Susan, played by Zach Kafernakis, as the Sasquatch.

And he wants the adventurer to take him to find his people, find his kind, take him up to see the Yeti.

Are you a big Cryptid guy, Derek?

Is this like?

I am I am a big Cryptid guy.

I would love to tell in real life.

Yeah, so like the the idea of 1 mythological creature wanting to go find another, I was like, that is a really clever plot that I don't even know if they really mentioned in the advertising.

And then through that, you know, it's like they have to find the city of Shangri-La, which is another mythical place.

And so it's just this kind of smash brothers of cryptozoology.

And like you said, that makes it so that's a globetrotting movie with these giant set pieces.

So I didn't remember if like a did stop motion or did CG that looks like stop motion.

That's how fluid this movie is.

I feel like with like Nightmare Before Christmas, you can kind of see where the puppets are getting smushed and you kind of just get used to that.

But I would guess that part of what made this so expensive is how many still images they took, because it must have been microscopic adjustments.

Unless do you know that?

Did they clean it up with CG later to make it look so fluid?

So yeah, they do.

That's one thing that Leica does and I've touched on it a little bit before, but that they have, they will have the, you know, puppets and stuff like that, but they will touch things up with CG.

Like for example, the Loch Ness Monster, which by the way, love that opening of the movie is mostly a puppet.

But there's like some stuff underwater where it's it's head is a puppet and its body is like CG or a lot of water effects because water is almost impossible to do with CG is.

Yeah, exactly.

It's stop motion or stuff in like the way, way background.

Like when they watch that little, I don't know.

Did you see that little ending thing?

My jaw dropped.

My jaw dropped because what Derek's referring to is the credits.

They actually give you 10 seconds of what the process of this movie was.

And so you see all these high tech cameras just all over this, uh, stop motion puppet that's walking through the actual forest set.

And then there's a layer of CG to give the depth of field to the horizon.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So there's a lot of stuff like that where they will like feel in like the backs and stuff like, but but they will, you know, and they do a lot of like stuff where the the puppets are layered.

So they'll have like a green screen and then they'll have like another background that they'll do on a different.

So not only do they have to like do all the stop motion stuff once, they have to do it for all these different layers.

And that's why these movies take so like they were talking about the avalanche scene alone took a year like just that that part.

And that's Part 1 of the reasons why like a makes you so few films is because the time and intensity that has to go into these things is just unparalleled.

And why we still don't have a release for their new film Wildwood, which because they're like, we're not sure when this thing is going to be done, you know, because they have to spend so much time and energy.

But it reminds me a lot of, you know, talking about the mixing the practical with the CG reminds me of like the OG Jurassic Park where it's like we're going to do these things practically and in frame whenever possible, but there's some stuff that is literally impossible to do that will fill in.

So it, it feels like a real embracing of the old with the new, which feels thematically on point for what's happening in this film.

Because a lot of this stuff is like, hey, we're looking at this old world.

We're looking at these old things.

But there's these traditionalists that are, you know, like you mentioned, these blue bloods who don't believe in evolution or woman's rights or anything like that, or they're clinging to the past.

But and you know, they're also looking for Sean Grillard, but they're also like, so there's these things from the past that are obviously to be appreciated, but we shouldn't just become stuck in that and then and ignore progress.

Yeah.

And it's funny because, like, I feel like a lot of stories lately that have been allegories will get this criticism of like, well, that's just Trump.

Like, clearly that's just Trump.

You're not being very creative.

You're not being very nuanced.

Movie came out in 2015.

Do you know what I mean?

This was.

Well, the next one was 2019.

Well.

Maybe it is Trump then.

That's something the episodes of that out as a recording this, but me and RiRi talked about how how much it feels like the Boxtrolls is about Trump because there's people with like red hats and shit like that and like this very charismatic like and that movie came out.

That movie did come out in 2015.

So that felt like like that movie was like before, but it was like, it felt like a predicted in a lot of ways.

But I mean, not not not just to not just to mention just him specifically, but like, I do think that this movie is interesting in the way that it came out at a time when people were kind of starting to turn on science.

And science itself, I think has lost so much cultural importance.

And, you know, people doubt scientists more than they believe them.

And they, you know, do do their own research.

And I, it made me get behind the main character who wants to provide scientific evidence of the link between ape and man.

And I love the establishment trying to stop him because like you might say that's like a hot take or whatever, but like, that's what that's compelling.

And now I see this real world parallel that's getting me thinking about things in my life that to me the difference between the good movie and a great movie, regardless of how you feel about it.

Yeah, yeah, I I was a big fan of all that because it's it's social commentary, but it's not preachy at all.

It just feels very organic and and natural and I, I really loved all that in the movie.

So you, you, you, you obviously love this movie.

I'm glad because, you know, like I said, it was hard to find people who'd even seen this movie to talk about.

So this was the first time watch for you.

Just tell me.

Obviously we talked about that, like a lot of the stuff that we like with Leica and you know, how they're doing all these different technology stuff.

But one thing I love about all these like a films is that when I step back after the movie and like, look, think about it behind the scenes, how technically impressive it is in the moment, I'm usually not thinking about that because the story and the characters are so engaging that I forget all the insane shit that went on behind the scenes.

What did you think about like this movie itself, the story, the characters, all of that?

So I you know how Disney's doing the live action remakes, right, Like we talked a bit about with Andrew, your your Co panelist from Comic Con this year, Andrew Lind, wonderful man.

And he's talking about, you know, he so he does nothing new, a remake podcast.

And so he's he's done a lot of Disney because Disney's big thing is live action remakes, right?

I kind of want, hear me out, a live action remake of this, but it's just the same movie with Hugh Jackman in costume and Zach Galifianakis in costume.

And you do this movie live action, but you don't change any of the script because they're Zach Galifianakis kills me.

I think he's one of the funniest actors working today.

MMM And the whole kind of crux of comedy with Link in this movie is that he takes things very literally because.

He's Drax coded.

Almost.

Yes, Drax coded where you know, the, the, the scene from the trailer where they're trying to get over this wall and it's OK, toss the rope over.

He tosses the entire rope over.

He told me to throw over the rope.

Zach Galifianakis can deadpan to a point that it just kills me.

And it came through so much through the character.

I feel like this is a great buddy comedy starring Hugh Jackman and Zach Galifianakis.

And if I went to the random film buff and said, hey, what's a great buddy comedy starring Zach Galifianakis and Hugh Jackman, they wouldn't think of this because the being that's animated and especially stop motion animated, it's sort of shunted in people's minds.

But I think that I think that that is where this movie is fantastic is just the humor, the back and forth there's and there's the little things.

I love that they do.

Zoe Saldana's character, Adelina, when they're when they're talking, it feels like authentic dialogue.

And there's one point where she's arguing with Hugh Jackman and she's like, no, no, it's my turn now.

And like that little, it's my turn.

That little.

It's my.

Did you catch that part?

Oh, Dad.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I was like, this feels like a real argument between like actors with real chemistry, and I think that's the real strength of the movie.

Does that Calvinakis make you laugh as hard as he makes me laugh?

Oh, absolutely.

And I think he is perfectly cast in this.

I think people imagine him as just kind of this this character in The Hangover, you know, like that's kind of what he or like between him on Between Two Ferns, like Between Two Ferns was like so successful and he's playing himself that I think it's like the Colbert thing where for like years people think that's just all Zach Galifianakis is.

But I think he is so much more as an actor.

And I think this movie, he's got this like pitches his voice up a bit.

And I think he's so, you know, like he's he's perfectly cast in this as just this very big lovable glute that and he has that great back and forth with with Jackman, who's really just been like the pompous British guy and seeing their arc together and seeing how they grow and seeing that budding relationship.

It's interesting because there is also, as you mentioned, Zoe Salanis in this and she's phenomenal and she's a great addition to that.

She's and she helps that relationship out, but it's really between the two of them.

Like this movie could have been really focused on the romance between them.

And that honestly completely takes a back seat to the bromance between these two guys.

And that's the whole driving force to the movie is they are both wanting to be accepted by this other thing by this kind of old stuffy group, this group that is looking back to the past for for Frost, it's the nature organization, whatever they're called.

And then for Susan, it's the Yetis.

And they don't realize that in the course of them both trying to accomplish this goal, then find this group to be accepted by they are all they need to is each other to be accepted.

And so I think that's really beautiful.

Where they come to at the end is really great.

And so they're great as well as I love all the supporting characters in this.

You know, we we talked of course about Zoe Saldana and then just kind of the the villains in this.

You know, you've got Stephen Fry, who's always good as the kind of main bad guy.

Emma Thompson shows up as a cameo in the end.

But how about you?

But anytime Timothy Olyphant shows up as a cowboy in a movie, I am 100% in like it was not good, but I still watch it because it's like he's a space cowboy.

Let's go and him is like I'm a stank and he's got like his characters.

I so cool.

He's got like scratch mark on his head.

I I like assume I forgot he was in this.

And then as soon as I heard his voice I was like, that's my guy.

That's my guy right there.

Yeah, I think the movie is really interesting in in its antagonists because you have this whole handful of antagonists.

Willard Stank is the character you're referring to the the bounty hunter who is being paid to kill Hugh Jackman so that he doesn't find evidence of evolution.

Like that's essentially the conflict as they're trying to stop his scientific discovery because they know it's true, they just don't want it to get back to the civilized world.

But Willard stink as a character.

He has these scars that run from his forehead to the back of his head.

You get the sense that like a tiger at some point just like raked its claws across his head.

But with these, I'm getting goosebumps.

With live action puppets, you feel the bumps.

When you look at that, you're like, that's a that's really raised up.

That's an actual scar I'm looking at.

And so it makes him so much more physically unnerving because it feels realistic in a way that other animation can't quite pull off.

And then Emma Thompson so.

So in the, I guess the third act of the movie, you'd say, yeah, yeah.

They successfully find the home of the Yetis and Link or Susan or Mr.

Link, whatever you want to call him, he is rejected by them.

They they take one look at him, these, these, these regal blue Yetis and their robes and their weapons and their full civilization juxtaposed with Link, who's been living by himself in the woods, Right.

And they go like, oh, the redneck and like it's like a little low hanging fruit as far as like a pun goes.

But like he's literally red to their beautiful blue.

And they spit on him for being like the country cousin.

And that's that's another part of commentary.

But it's like, I feel like it's anti classist and it's like not judging, you know, quote UN quote simple folk because you know, they're not actually better than you.

And I think that's such a great twist because in most I have to find my home stories.

The home is the finish line.

That's the end of the movie.

Oh, look, I found the other dinosaurs and it's either I'm going to go be with them and it's sad because they leave or I choose you Paddington 3 and it's sad because they stay.

But this one it's like, you know, just because of where you came from, that doesn't mean that's who your people are.

And and lynx people is well, I guess it's Lionel Frost.

I was going to add Adelina in there, but she she bones out at the end of the movie.

Have you Have you beaten Super Mario Odyssey?

I have not.

I I haven't.

I'm gonna.

You're gonna be mad at me.

I haven't even played it.

I'm sorry, Javo.

So can I not spoil it or do you wanna just not listen for a second?

You can spoil it, it's OK.

Well, so you know, you rescue Princess Peach.

Yeah, right.

And the spoiler but the well, OK, but this part is actually unique.

So Mario and Bowser need to team up at the end to escape, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so, you know, you know, the, you know, the premise of like, you throw your hat on things and you pass them.

So Mario Bowser let's Mario throw the hat on him.

So you're controlling Bowser as Mario or whatever.

And then because they work together, they both think they get claims to Princess Peach.

And at the end, Princess Peach is like, yeah, I'm going to go adventure, sea boys.

I'm not here for either one of you.

And she balloon.

And so when Adelina at the end of this movie was like, look, Lionel, I'm not your gal, and that's OK.

So I'm gonna go.

You boys have fun.

Oh, Princess peached her.

Or she.

Princess peached them, I guess.

But yeah, I don't know.

I don't know what your question was.

Oh, yeah.

The antagonist.

I just like that the antagonist push the protagonist closer together because that's what a good antagonist does in a story.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I think yeah, this is a really, really well structured, interesting film on so many levels.

And yeah, once again that I I sound like a broken record, but I'm so sad that more people didn't check this out because Like is obviously just a incredible studio.

This is their last film that they've made to date.

They're obviously going to be coming out with one next year that maybe I'll do a bonus episode on or something.

But this is obviously the end of this series, but I wanted to just kind of talk about Chris Butler as a director and and something that he said that you kind of got me thinking about for a second.

When you talked about like the scars, how you could feel, you could almost feel the scars on Stank's head.

And because what Butler said is that he loves working in stop motion because there's this kind of tactility to it, right?

You can feel it in a way that you can't really feel with other forms of animation.

And over the years we've seen more animation become more and more of one type.

As you know, stop motion and traditional slash 2D animation has fallen away and everything has become 3D, which I appreciate.

But it is it is all.

And there is differences in that, you know, Into the Spider verse looks very different than a, you know, Elio or something.

But it is all one form of animation.

So it's very nice to see something different.

And the way Chris Butler put it was he likes stop motion because it feels like when you were a kid and you're playing with your toys.

That is the exact feeling that and I was like that is it right?

That is why I think people love this and you know with the Lego movie that is obviously a 3D animated movie, but people thought it was stop motion because they intentionally make of this style because obviously you want that to evoke playing with Legos.

Obviously great movie.

They cheat for that movie.

They do not cheat for this movie.

They make everything and that takes a lot of time.

That takes a lot of money, it takes a lot of love and dedication.

How do you feel about stop motion kind of as a style?

Oh, stop motion.

It's always held a very special place in my heart.

Like as a kid, my first fandom.

It's a weird first fandom, but it was King Kong.

That was my that was my thing, you know cuz I the OMG.

30s King Kong.

So I went on the Universal Studio tour at Universal Studios Hollywood at the age of like 5, right?

And there was nothing more terrifying and entrancing than the giant animatronic King Kong puppet.

Kids these days know King Kong at Universal as a screen.

But when Derek and I were growing up, or especially me, I'm a little older than Derek, it was a giant robot hanging off the side of a bridge.

And it would reach out and it would breathe banana breath on you.

And I was like, that's King Kong.

He's real.

And so I became fascinated.

And then I had to watch the movies, you know, so the old, you know, stop motion Ray Harryhausen.

Is that the name of the studio that also did Clash of the Titans?

I'm a fan of Nightmare.

Who isn't?

I remember a Comic Con years ago, I actually got to see up close a set from Corpse Bride.

It was the, yeah, it was the Chapel scene, but it was the one they really used from the movie.

And, you know, and that's behind Glass, but they let you get right up to it.

And I was like, Oh my God, It felt like, imagine going up to a celebrity Derek and just pressing your nose against them and just staring at the celebrity's face.

Because that was the characters from the movie, right?

It was literally, it was tactile in a way that I've always really loved.

I'm afraid for its future because of how costly it is.

And you wonder like if Missing Link had been made with CG, would it have been more successful?

Because then you could take that same CG model and make the Taco Bell promotion and hey, come get the come get the link burrito, you know, and it cost that studio.

Like that's a that's an intern can do that in a day versus meticulously moving actual physical puppets.

It's it's beautiful in a way that feels doomed, which I think makes it more special.

I think the scene that is sort of exactly what you're mentioning and what Chris Butler mentioned about the tactility, if that's the word, is towards the end of the movie.

I think it's actually the climax of the movie.

The protagonist and the antagonist are dangling from this rope that is suspended above an icy chasm.

And I was sitting up in bed and yelping and yelling in a way that animation does not make me do.

And I was like, why is this hitting so hard?

And it's because I think there is a physical weight to what you're seeing.

And I think on some primal level, the brain knows the difference.

Would you agree?

Yeah, I would definitely agree.

I love that you brought up the King Kong experience or whatever at Universal because this is something I've complained about.

I think I've mentioned it on the podcast before is when I last went to Universal Studios, how like everything has become, like everything in the last five or six years has just become a screen ride.

And that's good every once in a while.

And it's good to fill in gaps sometimes.

But like when you're just like, like I went on that Fast and furious, that Fast and furious part of the train tour is the lamest thing you will ever see in your life.

It's so bad.

You know what I'm talking about.

And and yeah, when you can see like, as opposed to like go to Disneyland or park that I love because it's so like low tech and low fine.

And I was just actually on another podcast talking about it, Knott's Berry Farm.

And they have these old janky animatronics from like the 1950s and 60s and shit that feels so much even though like they, you know, have these blank expressions that they're kind of robotic that feels so much more real than when I'm just looking at like a screen that has Dominic Tretto on it.

There's, there's something about that that really feels so immersive.

And it's, it's not just when you're at a theme park.

It is also when you're at these places, you know, when you're, when you're watching these movies, I should say.

And, you know, I've talked about how some of these movies really hit hard, even harder when they're in 3D because they are shooting these actual things.

And like, how impressive is that?

They're shooting all this stuff real.

There's a shot at the beginning of this movie that blows me away.

That is, it's just a like very run-of-the-mill shot that, you know, you would see that would, you know, not be hard to make it.

Well, I mean, I guess movies are hard to make regardless, but it would be much simpler, I'll say, to make if you were doing this in a CG film where there's this the camera just kind of like goes along the lake and then pans around the the people in the boat.

You see, you know, Lint, who is his his assistant at the time and you see Frost and it kind of just pans and goes to them.

And I was like thinking like that must have been insane to do because and they have all these like cranes and stuff like that.

And normally if you do that in a movie, you would have this kind of like motion control shot that sweeps around.

But instead of like doing doing normal motion control, you have to take thousands of pictures for this one shot and have the crane as the camera is moving.

You have to move like this guy here, this guy here.

And, and think about, oh, well, this angle is 2° separate or two degrees different than it was in the last frame.

And then, OK, move the camera again half an inch.

All right, move this guy half an inch.

It's baffling the amount of work that went into this.

And once again, it's always in support of this story.

It's never the other way around.

It's never like, we're going to do this really cool technological thing.

We're just going to show you it's no, we're have this really amazing story we'll want to tell.

How can we get the technology to catch up to us?

And they're like us, so smart because they're finding things like that exist in the world.

Like these cameras that are made for like industrial stuff like that will take pictures of things on a conveyor belt that can take so many pictures and he'll put that in the camera or they'll they have these, these Gurney like things where they're like these are used for like, you know, flight simulators.

We're going to put them in the movie so we can have these big characters and wheel them around because otherwise how we're going to get it.

So the innovation that is required for this is is unparalleled by, I think by almost anyone else.

And I know I'm rambling, but I promise I'll give it back to you in a second.

You, you talked about how this movie is, it feels different than like a Disney movie or like anything else because it it, it has this kind of tactility.

And I was thinking about how every single like a film has been nominated for best animated feature.

And I brought this up before, but what I didn't bring up before is that every single time they've lost best animated feature to a Disney slash Pixar movie.

And it's and some yeah.

And sometimes you're like, OK, 2009 was a pretty stacked year.

Upbeats Coraline.

That's the same year that Fantastic Mr.

Fox, another, you know, stop motion film gets nominated.

But there's sometimes where it's like Kubo lost his Zootopia and like Zootopia is fine, but like that's that's a real shame.

I don't know, like I don't talk about a lot.

Do you have any thoughts about any of that?

Well, Derek, I could listen to you ramble for hours and I have actually, I've listened to many an underrated podcast.

So I just want listeners to know I wasn't making a hurry up Derek face.

I was enjoying all of that.

Yeah, it's I think that artistic direction and, and, and and concept and how that serves the story is overlooked a lot because like, for example, Zootopia loved the movie.

I'm not taking anything away from Zootopia, but Zootopia, when I think about it, like aesthetically, it's like nothing really surprises me.

You know, it's like imagine a city full of animals, you know, it's like, it's sort of everything felt like the first draft of an idea.

And, and I'm no, I'm no author myself, you know, I'm not saying it's a bad story, but with, with missing Link and it's visuals, I kept noticing the way it was enhancing the story.

The nature scenes all have this very cold, blue and green aesthetic that juxtaposes against the warmer colors of our protagonists.

And so just that little visual language of like associating warmth with our heroes.

And so then when Link eventually finds his people and they are cold and blue, like all of the threatening nature that they've just gone through, it kind of makes sense visually for storytelling.

And, you know, like you said, the establishing shots of it, like sweeping around and it's establishing OK.

Like this is a stop motion movie, but it feels like an adventure in a way that like, I don't know that Nightmare Before Christmas ever did because all the shots and nightmare, they're great, but they're tight.

You know, you're kind of like looking in this really cool shoebox and missing link is like, we're going to pull the camera back and show you just how crazy ambitious this movie is.

But I feel like stop motion or not, excuse me, still images do not do this movie justice.

I think there's a motion of fluidity to it and the way that it gets you into the story.

You cannot communicate on a poster.

So I don't know if I ever would have seen this movie had you not or had no one else.

You know, how am I saying this?

If someone else had stepped up and taken this episode, I don't know if I ever would have watched it.

And that's almost embarrassing for how good it is.

Like, I, I'm really glad, Yeah, I'm really glad.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Cuz, cuz, yeah.

This, you know, and that's the whole thing about the, you know, underage, like there are these movies that I'm like, this is so good.

Why did no one see missing link?

And I really want to get the word out.

So, you know, I'm once I'm glad that I got the word out to you and now hope and we're together now getting the word out to other people, hopefully.

And then people check this movie out, whether it's before the listening to the podcast or the you know, they like what we had to say.

So they go back and check it out because these are not long movies.

These are these are movies that are an hour and a half because they're so complicated.

I want to backtrack to to something you said that I was going to bring up before and I I got lost in my tangent.

But you talked about you talked about seeing going and like seeing it's like seeing a celebrity and seeing that the pieces of corpse bride, right.

And it's something I got to experience too at the Academy Museum where I got to see not just this like stuff from like which there was some stuff from, but there was also stuff from Fantastic Mr.

Fox and a bunch of other stuck great stop motion films.

And I don't know, stop motion to me feel kind of like the most authentic kind of use of the film medium because when you're shooting, you know, obviously the way movies work is you're showing a bunch of frames per second.

You're not actually really being shown motion, you know, So you're when you're taking, you know, video of something, you are obviously shooting somebody and it's trans or shooting movement around people or whatever waterfall, whatever it might be.

And you're spicing that up into a bunch of pictures and then your mind use those pictures as what the original thing was.

Whereas this it's like, no, we're actually taking a bunch of still images.

That's its original state.

And then your mind is seeing that as film.

And I think that's so cool.

And like you talked about, like we both talked about, it is this is kind of a dying art.

And as I mentioned in other episodes, I feel like like it keeps getting to make movies because they have Nike money, because Travis Knight is obviously the son of Phil Knight.

And the I feel like the only people that are allowed to make these stop quote, UN quote, allowed to make stop motion films are are people that like Leica because they have that money or people who get money from like Netflix that are like these auteurs.

They're like, OK, we will let a wet like we will let a Guillermo del Toro make his Pinocchio stop motion movie because he is this auteur.

He has this quote UN quote vision or you know, Wes Anderson because he's a weird, quirky guy.

We'll let him make Isle of Dogs or Fantastic Mr.

Fox and every once even Hardman, right, who were one of The Pioneers of stop motion in the 90s and stuff.

Chicken Run one of like, I think it was for a while the most successful stop motion field I ever made.

Did They took like 25 years to get a sequel made and it's only because Netflix bankrolled them.

So these films are becoming harder and harder to see, which makes them even more special I think.

Yeah, I, I, I definitely agree.

It it feels like, well, it almost feels like an endangered animal, you know what I mean?

And it's like, and it's majestic to see, you know, it's just I I OK, so let me ask you.

Let me ask you a hot take question.

OK?

Please.

OK.

It feels dirty.

I shouldn't even say it.

I shouldn't put this into the algorithm because then Skynet's gonna be like, hey, great idea, but what if?

But what if there was a studio that had the actual physical puppets and they did like the 363 pictures and they had AI create what it would look like if those puppets moved and it looked the same?

You're making a face, right?

It feels gross.

But why do we care though?

Why don't we want these movies to be easier to make?

Because then we'd get more of them?

Or would it not be the same?

I don't think it would be the same.

You know, I'm, I'm very, very opposed to AI when it comes to filmmaking you.

Know so am I, so am I.

And you know, like there's this like I got really pissed because IMAX is doing this whole like AI assisted Film Festival and it's what it's gross.

It's gross because I think that the the work and the love that goes into this, this movie is so clear, right?

And it does take a lot of time and effort, but people love doing it.

You have these people like Chris Butler and Phil Knight who legitimately love this art style.

You know, and even going back to Will Vinton, you know, who is the was the progenitor essentially of Leica.

You know, he like these people have this love for this medium and to just be like, OK, well, rather than taking all the time and love to make this crazy thing, we're just going to like use it.

AI.

And we touched on Del Toro talking about Pinocchio.

He said something because I was just at Comic Con and he said something on his panel that he did with George Lucas where he's like, you cannot push a button and create art.

Heart is something that comes from people's passion.

It comes from the heart.

You're telling a story and you can't just because it takes dedication, it takes the work to see that through.

And when you're when it's you're taking these shortcuts and you're taking something easy and not hat and cutting out, you know, honestly, animators would lose their jobs if if you know that happened.

And I want to see people like a have jobs, unfortunately, because of how.

These movies have done, they've had to make cuts and stuff like that, which is a real shame.

But I would.

I would, yeah.

That would not be something for me to be.

Honest, I and I agree, and you know, if anyone knows JMO haters, certainly turn it off now.

They're like, I'm this guy.

But the reason I brought that up though, is that like, I don't I, I greatly fear for the impact AI is going to have on our culture and how it will change our definition of what is and isn't an artist, because I completely agree with everything that you said Guillermo del Toro said.

Was that him someone who said you can't just press a button?

The reason that my mind, my reason my mind went there though, is that I do as a teacher, see AI making certain processes that were just time consuming easier and faster, and then I can be a more efficient teacher.

So I was wondering if there was any world where this process that is so time consuming could be streamlined for creators.

But I think also the part of why that has some ick to it is that what makes that motion special is that it feels like you're watching a sculpture.

Yeah.

And when you look at a sculpture, it's not just, oh, that looks pretty, but you think about the time and the sculptors hand chiseling away at it.

And that's kind of where some of the emotion comes from too, if not most of the emotion from a sculpture, right?

So, yeah, bad idea.

Jamo, come on.

Well, yeah, and I think, you know, there could you could use AI to like pre vis something like, you know, as I think like there's application, like AI is not inherently 100% of the time awful.

Like if you use AI to like find cancer cells in somebody's brain or something, cool, go for that, but don't use it in the creative arts.

You know, that's that's kind of where I how I feel about it.

So, yeah, I, I think that because a lot of these guys and you know, yeah, I mentioned Knight and Butler and then but obviously like Henry Selleck, Tim Burton to a certain degree, you know, and like they they have this passion for this.

And and there's a reason that unfortunately these movies aren't getting made because it's the easier path is becoming so prevalent.

One, one last thing too, I wanted to say not last thing, but one other thing I wanted to say too, is that I keep forgetting to bring up is because you brought up Corpse Bride.

Did you know that was actually secretly kind of the first Leica film?

What do you mean I have no like no that.

So, yeah, so like a before they were even like a when they were still Wil Vinton Studios and before Wil Vinton kind of cut the company Loki stolen from him by the nights.

But that's a whole other podcast.

They actually did a lot of work on The Corpse Bride.

That was really the first movie that they worked on as essentially what would become like A and there were other films that Wil Vinton did, but like a did a lot of the stop motion and work with Tim Burton productions for that movie.

It's not actually a like a film, but it is the first time that like a worked on a movie.

So I wanted to shout that out.

You know I haven't.

That's the I didn't rewatch it for this series, but I wondered if you had any thoughts on Corpse Brides since you brought it up.

I always thought Corpse Bride, you know, it's, I don't know if you have an episode for it.

You do, don't you?

I don't.

I don't actually.

Oh, feels like you should because like, I think that movie is really cool and kind of just got crapped on for not being nightmare, you know?

And like it's its own thing.

But it's interesting to know the Leica connection because like I'm thinking of the best sequence of that movie, which is Remains of the Day where Mr.

Bone Jangles is singing the big song of the movie teach, you know, where you learn how the course bride became the corpus bride.

But like it's very colorful, it's very imaginative.

It's doing things with perspective that you don't normally see in stop motion.

And I'm also thinking about corpse bride and like there's some shots where like he's run, you know, the protagonist is running through the woods and it's stop motion, but you're seeing the woods and then it feels like this big shot.

And so, like, I could see like a kind of revving up their engines a bit to then, you know, go on to make movies like this.

Yeah.

I, I imagine that the stop motion circle was pretty small and that a lot of those people have worked with one another.

But yeah, it's just when this movie ended, you know, there's a little TS that Sir Lionel Richard.

Is that his name or Sir Richard Lionel Hugh Jackman's character?

Lionel.

Lionel Frost.

I was thinking Lionel Richie or Lionel, Sir Lionel Richard, That's funny.

Lionel Frost and Mr.

Susan Link are going to go look for Atlanta.

And I watched this with Jackie.

And the credits start rolling.

She goes, I'd watch that movie.

Yeah, I'd watch that movie in a heartbeat.

So, you know, this is, I feel like this might be one of the most underrated movies you've ever covered because we didn't even really like it that much going into it.

We'd never seen it.

And we're like, oh, this is great.

Yeah, honestly, I think, yeah, this is this is definitely up there for for like movies that really hit the mark for the thesis of this podcast is a missing link.

Yeah, because it's just underrated in in so many ways.

And even when it comes to Leica, which I feel like generally their films are not as appreciated as they should be.

This one's one that doesn't even get talked about in the same breath as like a Coraline or even a Paranorman.

And I think it comes back to what you said about it's not child protagonists.

So, you know, like I've had students whose Google profiles are Coraline and Kubo, You know what I mean?

Yeah, I even think I saw a box troll in there at one point.

But no one has ever been like, I identify with missing Link because you don't really identify with this movie until you're old enough to get things like what you know an evolution denier is and you know what sexism feels like and what what it can feel like to be rejected by your culture, whatever.

Those are very high cops.

And this movie, I think the the crux of it is written for adults, but we didn't really get to talk about it.

But just the slapstick is so funny.

I was dying laughing.

There's this hilarious sequence where it's the same sequence where he throws the rope over the where we have to get over this wall.

OK, Link.

Climb up.

I'm not really much of A climber.

Look at your arms, man.

Your arms are way down.

You need pretty good point.

I guess I could.

And he limbers up and he splits his pants and he does this run to the wall and he trips and breaks through the wall.

And it is like Buster Keaton level of comedy.

And I don't think it would hit if it was CGI.

Think the idea that there is a physical thing that really physically feels like it's hitting into something else.

Like the scene also where he tries to toss her Lionel out of the pit and throws him right into the wall.

It's just any pancakes and it's just slapstick.

I don't know if you're a big slapstick fan, but I also think that's a dying art.

And I think it's so funny in this movie.

Yeah, I think it when when utilized well, it can be really good.

And I think, you know, this is one of those times that it's it's utilized really well.

And it it feels like it this stop motion feels like it hits a good middle ground between, you know, kind of traditional 2D animation where physics are kind of like out of the realm or whatever.

Like Bugs Bunny can literally just do anything.

And, you know, a real action movie where you're bound by what's actually happening.

And obviously because you're using real things in this, you are bound by reality, but you can still mess with it.

You can still tweak it.

You can still do things digitally and make things a little more cartoon like and have like a character model go in a way that would normal human or ape missing link body would not go.

It feels like they're able to and make character designs that wouldn't exist in the real world.

Having these like talk about big scars on stinks head so it feels like a perfect kind of just like best of both worlds.

Yeah, and I think the fact that they ground the physics of it both through it being actual puppets, but also it's not Bugs Bunny, allows for some genuine tension.

I think one of the most impressive set pieces is the chase that happens on the ship because they're on this ship and the it's it's choppy waters.

And so first of all, you see that Lionel and Adeline are having an in their cabin, and the furniture is sliding back and forth as each of them gains and loses the upper hand in the argument.

And like, that's just clever writing.

But then during the chasing, the waves get so intense that the boat is corkscrewing and Lionel is running along the wall, having to jump over doors as they're opening because what was once the wall with a door on it is now a floor with a pit on it.

And it's just like, I'm getting goosebumps just subscribing that because like, that's like a great action sequence.

And they this movie doesn't need to go so hard.

It would have been perfectly fine if it just relied on funny writing and the good acting and the beautiful puppets.

But this movie, you got to see it.

You got to see this movie.

Derek, am I right?

You're absolutely right.

And because, yeah, like you say, it doesn't need to go that hard, and you don't even think of it as going that hard right away.

I think, Kubo, you think that movie needs to go hard.

It needs to have these big magical creatures and like, elaborate things and all this crazy stuff happening.

This movie doesn't really need to do that, but it still goes the extra mile for that.

And I love that you brought up the ship rocket scene because that was in my notes too, about that's such a great scene.

And they have this incredible back and forth between Adelina and Frost where he's pouring the drink and it's sliding between her and it's very it's it's a good stand in for their actual relationship about like, here's the kind of back and forth.

And then they kind of get literally thrown together and they're kind of like, oh, they have that moment where they're like, oh, they're like, like, see, Exactly.

And that is really doing a lot of great character work.

And it's a great scene.

And it's setting up where these characters will go, not just with each other, but with Susan.

And then, as you say, that perfectly sets up the ship really rocking when the movie just basically becomes Inception shit where like they're having like the whole thing.

And that had to be insane to shoot where they're like rotating this big set that they built.

And he's running down the hallway and, like, there's water splashing in and there's people shooting guns.

And then it's like turning.

And it blows my mind how fucking cool that scene was.

And they, they were, like I said, didn't need to go that hard.

But I'm so fucking glad that they did.

Yeah.

Yeah, if you've ever played, do you play the Uncharted games?

I haven't played them.

I did see the movie and but I and I, I have seen them played.

I've been like, you know, in someone I was dating at the time was playing them and I watched a bunch of it.

OK, so you know the big over the top action sequences where you're like playing through an action movie moment, parachuting from an exploding plane as the rubble and you're jumping from piece to piece and the water is rising.

And it's like the the Venn diagram of missing Link fans and Uncharted fans is probably pretty small, but they should be just a total circle.

Like if you like Uncharted.

No, I'm serious.

Because I I said it.

It's got funny banter, it's got adventure, it's got huge set pieces.

Justice for missing link.

It's so, so cool.

Yeah, Yeah, absolutely.

And then to just talk about like a more in general here, because we talked about Chris Butler, His next thing that he's going to be doing is that he is going, he's the because he obviously he writes all these movies.

He's going to be doing the screenplay for a film directed by, you know, like his other big guy by Travis Knight.

But it is going to be, it's not officially a like a film, but it is going to kind of be like a lot of the like a teams working on it.

They're working on the live action Masters of the Universe movie.

Just wanted to get your thoughts about that.

I think they can pull it off.

I think the problem with Masters of the Universe is that the aesthetic can look pretty silly.

You know, he man and his bowl cut and Skeletor, you know, and it's like, but I could see them taking some of the lessons they've learned through these live action and applying them to actual costumes and actual sets.

I don't I don't know when that whole series got reassessed and like he man is seen as like genuinely badass.

Like I just look, maybe I've got some baggage.

I had a bowl cut my entire childhood because we didn't go.

We, my mom just cut my hair herself, God bless her, because that's what we could afford.

So I guess I think I've always shield away from he man.

But you know, if, if any team can take that really over the top look and make it serve a story, I think it'd be this team.

Yeah, and so I'm excited to see, you know, I was a big fan of.

I never was like into He Man as a kid, but I was very into the the reboot of Shira.

That's good.

Power it's phenomenal.

So like that that's you know, that's kind of my in for it and this would be Travis Knight's second live action film because he also did bumblebee, which makes sense because it feels like there's a lot of stuff that is, you know, with all the big Transformers and stuff around a background in stop motion would translate well to that.

So I feel like it would also probably translate well to all the crazy monsters and effects that's going to be happening in in he man.

So.

Yeah, and Bumblebee kind of slaps.

If you haven't seen Bumblebee, it's pretty good.

Bumblebee is like surprisingly good.

It's it's really great.

But yeah man any any last thoughts on on missing link here?

I would just, I would just say that if if you happen to have listened to this far and you still haven't watched the movie, definitely, definitely go watch it.

I think this is a great couples movie.

Honestly, my wife and I had a great time because it's it's very pure, it's very cute.

See, you know, like, but it doesn't talk down to you.

It's it really, it's a wonderful surprise and most surprises these days aren't wonderful.

So go check out missing link.

Everyone who worked on that movie and worked on it so hard, they must be a little crestfallen.

So there we have to find a way to send someone from the movie this episode because they need they need to know they need one more person saying how good of a job they did, right?

And just there's so many memeable lines.

There's so many funny moments that Galfinac is like, oh, depression is like gas, but sadder.

And it's like, yes, it is.

And how and and how is that not a gift that we're all using everyday?

Like right Hashtag justice for missing link.

Yeah, they're so like this script of this thing is so good.

And it's it's insane to me that Chris Butler is such a talented director of Stop Motion, but also can make a great script.

And one of the things I think was interesting talked about was was that same sequence when we talked about how the avalanche scene took like a, you know, that snow, whole snow scene took a year to shoot.

And he was like, yeah, when I was writing this, I was like, I should I be doing this because this is going to be a pain.

So it feels like this is really, really a labor of love from people who care about this 100%.

Yeah.

And then last question.

And I've asked this to everyone on this like a series.

And this is the end of it here.

So I want you to bring us home and tell us what does like a mean to you.

Damn it I almost got I almost got away with this.

Oh God damn I have never seen a like a movie from stop to finish until missing link.

Oh.

My God.

I was afraid you'd ask this question at some point.

I saw Boxtrolls in theaters and fell asleep.

So Rimi's gonna be pissed.

I I, I mean, maybe I, I've that movie could be good.

I in my memory, that movie's about 20 minutes long because up during the credits.

But yeah, I like, I has always just been this other company I knew of my students love Kubo.

You know, I, I know Boxtrolls has defenders Paranorman too, but it's just, it's you have those movies where like you're not avoiding it.

You just have never seen it, right?

And people get mad and you haven't seen that.

It's like, well, I'm not avoiding it.

It just hasn't.

No, not even Coraline.

Is that like, Yeah.

Yeah, this is.

Their personal OK, I have seen Coraline.

OK, OK.

All right, all right.

No.

And I like Coraline.

I like Coraline but if if the risk of overselling this movie.

I think Missing Link was a more enjoyable movie than Coraline is.

OK, wow.

Wow, this, well, this thing just hums.

It's just you're smiling.

Coraline is is it's attempting something very different, you know, artistically it's so much more nightmarish and the the tone is kind of more depressed through most of it.

So I'm not saying it's a better movie than Coraline, but which one would I watch again?

Missing link all day.

Interesting.

Yeah.

And yeah, I do think it's it's interesting to that this is what I would say easily.

I think like is most light hearted film and it really I think that one thing that like a has going at least in every other one of their films is that there is this because they're based up in Portland.

They do feel like this Pacific kind of Northwest sensibility to them.

And this one obviously about being about Bigfoot.

Like that's where like the movie kind of not necessarily starts, but where it kind of the inciting incident like him meeting Mr.

Link happens is in the Pacific Northwest.

You get a very kind of lovely portrait of this old like Oregonian town that they start off with.

So I think that, yeah, they have these unique sensibilities.

They're they're obviously one of my favorite studios, you know, one of my my favorite animation houses.

As as much as I love Disney and Pixar and Studio Ghibli and stuff like that, those are they're all great.

Like also has a really special place in my heart and I will try to see everything they make.

And that's why I wanted to do a whole series on them to shine a light on this studio that people might know, they might know some of their films.

They probably haven't seen all of them.

They definitely haven't seen missing Link.

Yeah.

So I, I really wanted to go into that because I think other than Coraline, I think every one of their films is underrated.

That's why I've talked about every one of their films on Underrated and did a bonus episode on Coraline because they are a studio that is doing something really different.

And in the same way that I think Studio Ghibli is, Studio Ghibli is keeping this traditional Japanese style of animation alive.

This is keeping a style of stop motion still alive.

So I want to keep see them keep being successful, make more films.

I hope their next film is is much more successful.

And and, you know, people go out and see Wildwood, but yeah, yeah, this is this has been a blast.

Jamo, you know, thank you for coming on and, and see and talk about this movie sight unseen with me.

You know, and I'm, I'm glad that you really enjoyed this movie and that we were able to have such a great discussion on it.

No new fave.

Thank you for introducing me to it.

It's it's awesome.

Yeah, yeah.

Thank you.

And and you know, before we go here, you know, obviously I mentioned you, your host, you yourself are the host of a phenomenal podcast, the Old Switch a Roo.

What did you want to let the people know about that show and where they can find it?

Oh, yeah, So thank you.

So if you want more content of Derek and I talking, you can listen to some of our past episodes.

I talked to him about pop star, Never stop stopping.

That's an underrated episode.

And then also subscribe to his Patreon so you can hear our argument about Silent Hill 2, the 3D movie that I I think qualifies as underrated.

And Derek, well, I'll let you.

I'll let you subscribe and listen.

But also, Derek and I have had quite a few episodes on my show, the Old Switch a Roo, where we are trying to research and review all 300 plus retro games included with Nintendo Switch Online.

Derek has been on to talk about Pokémon Snap as well as Link to the No excuse me, Link's Awakening.

And him and Karosh came to talk about Kirby, a couple of Kirby SNES games.

So yeah, it's a lot of fun.

We have a different every time and come check us out.

I think you'll enjoy it.

Yes, you guys certainly will.

One of my absolute favorites to listen to.

Even when I'm not on I I love.

I love, and that's because I'm a narcissist and I love listening to myself.

But I will listen to, I will listen to all the episodes because they're always great.

You're the best.

Oh, thank you.

I try and then if anybody out there is looking for anything else too that I do as you mentioned yes, I, I have a Patreon.

I would love for people to go check that out, start wrapping up my this season's podcast, which was Across the Second Dimension, where I talked about films that were released in 3D and see how they hold up in 2D.

Obviously, we talked about Coraline, we talked about Silent Hill, Revelation 3D, and a number of other podcasts.

We're going to be wrapping up next month or yeah, next month from when this is dropping.

No, this month, time is weird.

We're talking about Friday the 13th Part 3 with my buddy Matt from the Matt Mark Movie show.

You can also check me out on another podcast that I Co host called the Midnight Film Society where we talked about more recently released things.

And then check out my panel that I hosted at Comic Con that's going to be on YouTube.

And there's also a that episode is also in the same feed.

You can watch it if you're watching on Spotify, or you can just listen to it if you're listening on any other podcast app.

So I'd love you guys to check any of that out.

But yeah, one more time, Jamo, this has been a blast.

I, I had a ton of fun, you know, talking about this buddy film in this buddy podcast.

Hell yeah, dude, I will be.

I don't know if I'm Link or Lionel, but I will.

I will be your adventure companion any day.

You just say the word.

Hell yeah.

Thank you then.

All right, I'll see you guys all next time.

All right, awesome.

Thank you.

That was great, man.

That was.

Pretty damn good.

And I say, Derek.